/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 02 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Lachy> Binarytales, link?
  4. # [00:01] <Binarytales> it might be down... it was one of _why's creation... i'll check
  5. # [00:01] <Lachy> Binarytales, is that the one about Ruby?
  6. # [00:01] <Binarytales> yeah
  7. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Basically, the current spec text is *completely* about related-but-tangential content within an article, *not* sidebars. If it ever suggested that it was to be used for sidebars, that implication is long gone now.
  8. # [00:02] <Lachy> ok, I'm aware of it, though I haven't read it and can't recall any examples of asides from it
  9. # [00:02] <Lachy> TabAtkins, I know. That's a major problem with the spec
  10. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> But we like it how it is. ^_^
  11. # [00:03] <Lachy> I don't know what happened to the stuff about sidebars. I'm sure it used to be in there, and it should still e
  12. # [00:03] <Lachy> *be
  13. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Can you check commits on a particular section?
  14. # [00:03] <Lachy> I think that's difficult
  15. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> I think so too.
  16. # [00:04] <Lachy> though if you know how to use SVN, feel free to try
  17. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> You'd probably want to jump through the diffs until you ran into a change.
  18. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I may try after work.
  19. # [00:04] <Binarytales> Okay here is another example http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/04/making_time_saf.html
  20. # [00:04] <Binarytales> about two thirds of the way down there is an explanation of when Dionysuis think Christ was born
  21. # [00:05] <Binarytales> that would be marked up as an <aside>
  22. # [00:05] <Lachy> Binarytales, hmm, yeah, I guess
  23. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Yup. That's the use of <aside> that I'm angling for, that's currently spec-supported.
  24. # [00:06] <Lachy> well, we still need sidebars restored in some way
  25. # [00:06] <Lachy> or just be stuck with <section>
  26. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> The only thing wrong with <section> is that sidebars *are* so common that it probably falls under the same justification as header/footer
  27. # [00:08] <Lachy> it kind of sucks to overload the element with two distinct purposes, and it would also suck to have to introduce two separate elements to address each case
  28. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Plus, it would invalidate Hixie's rule of main content being "anything that's not header/footer/aside/nav"
  29. # [00:08] <Hixie> what _are_ y'all talking about
  30. # [00:09] <Binarytales> Lachy - can you show a use case where us would need a <sidebar> that isn't already served by a current element?
  31. # [00:09] <Lachy> Hixie, <aside>
  32. # [00:09] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-galbujckdgaihesf)
  33. # [00:09] <Lachy> Hixie, the fact that it can be used for tangentially related content, and for page sidebars
  34. # [00:10] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  35. # [00:10] <Lachy> Binarytales, it avoids the need to have to use id="sidebar" or class="sidebar" (or equivalent)
  36. # [00:10] <Hixie> "tangentially related content" is semantic-speak for "sidebar"
  37. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> BinaryTales: nod to Lachy. It falls under the same justification as <header> and <footer> - they're *so* common that they can be justified.
  38. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I disagree. ^_^ Plus so do lots of other people, apparently.
  39. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> pullquote is tangentially related content. A digression is tangentially related content. A blogroll is *not*. It's just a sidebar.
  40. # [00:12] <Lachy> Hixie, as we're discussing, there are two different types of tangentially related content. There's the page side bar, much like you find in, say, the left colum of wikipedia, and there's the kind that Binarytales pointed out in the quirksmode article
  41. # [00:13] <Hixie> a blogroll is tangentially related content
  42. # [00:13] * Quits: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  43. # [00:13] <Hixie> Lachy: one is tangentially related to an <article>, and the other to the <body>
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  46. # [00:14] <Lachy> Hixie, either way, the spec needs to be fixed to a) make it clear that such sidebars are a form of tangentially related content, or b) find an alternative solution
  47. # [00:14] <Hixie> in what world could a blog's blogroll not be considered related to the blog?
  48. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> In the world where you'll still have to use a class to differentiate the two for styling?
  49. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> All my "tangent" asides can probably be styled the same, while my sidebar will be completely different.
  50. # [00:15] * Joins: fearphage (n=fearphag@xbmc/user/fearphage)
  51. # [00:16] <Hixie> sure
  52. # [00:16] <Hixie> article > aside vs body > aside
  53. # [00:17] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-99-169-134-3.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  54. # [00:18] <Hixie> in the HTML5 spec, there are many classes of <aside>s -- .example, .note, .warning, .XXX, the issue markers on the side, the inline issue markers that jgraham inserts, etc
  55. # [00:18] <Hixie> they all have different styles
  56. # [00:18] * Quits: svl_ (n=me@dslb-084-056-115-085.pools.arcor-ip.net) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  57. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah, all those are fine asides.
  58. # [00:18] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-galbujckdgaihesf)
  59. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> If you do want sidebars to be <aside>, then you've *got* to edit the spec. The current examples give a *completely* different impression of the purpose of the element.
  60. # [00:19] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-56-211.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  61. # [00:20] <Lachy> Hixie, it seems like authors are trying to find and expect to see a clear distinction between elements used for overall page structure, and elements used for smaller sub-sections
  62. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Lachy's got it.
  63. # [00:20] <Lachy> so the spec needs to address that issue in some way.
  64. # [00:20] <Hixie> if you want more examples, or different examples, file a bug
  65. # [00:20] <Binarytales> i think its a context problem with the whole spec itself. nearly all the examples are from the context of a particular set of data. and blog post, an article, etc. There is a lack of example and clarity for the context of the greater context, the whole webpage itself
  66. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> There's already 20 or so emails on the subject. ^_^
  67. # [00:21] <Lachy> I'm not sure if examples would address the entire issue, though it would help
  68. # [00:21] <Hixie> if there's e-mails, that works too :-)
  69. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> The Superfriends got a lot of discussion moving.
  70. # [00:22] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@216-15-54-105.c3-0.grg-ubr3.lnh-grg.md.cable.rcn.com)
  71. # [00:22] <Lachy> Hixie, I will think about it and get back to you with, hopefully, a concrete way to address the issue
  72. # [00:22] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-99-169-134-3.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Client Quit)
  73. # [00:23] <Lachy> TabAtkins, yeah, the "Superfriends" had some very good, constructive feedback, although some bits are a little misguided
  74. # [00:23] <Binarytales> this is fascinating stuff but alas The Wire is on....
  75. # [00:23] * Hixie hasn't seen any mail about their feedback
  76. # [00:23] <Hixie> did they send that in?
  77. # [00:23] <Lachy> but I find it somewhat disturbing that they called themselves the "superfriends"
  78. # [00:23] <Hixie> or did my spam filters catch it again
  79. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie: It's been linked.
  80. # [00:23] <Lachy> Shelley sent it
  81. # [00:23] <Binarytales> http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/
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  84. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> "HTML5 feedback from prominent designers" and "Implementor feedback on new elements in HTML5"
  85. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> both started yesterday.
  86. # [00:24] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu) (Remote closed the connection)
  87. # [00:24] <Hixie> HTML5 feedback from prominent designers was apple's feedback, no?
  88. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Though the latter was actually started by Maciej.
  89. # [00:24] <Hixie> er wait
  90. # [00:25] <Hixie> the other one was i mean
  91. # [00:25] <Lachy> Hixie, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1473.html
  92. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but the superfriends stuff got included into the whole discussion.
  93. # [00:25] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  94. # [00:26] <Hixie> oh, i see, there was no actual feedback in those e-mails except for lachy's e-mail
  95. # [00:26] <Hixie> that's why it didn't get logged
  96. # [00:27] <Lachy> Hixie, don't you count e-mails that link to actual feedback, like Shelley's did? Or do you log those pages elsewhere?
  97. # [00:28] <Hixie> i didn't save that one because i'm expecting them to actually send the feedback
  98. # [00:28] <Hixie> and it's far easier for me to deal with e-mails with feedback than with e-mails with links to feedback
  99. # [00:28] <Hixie> since otherwise i have to dig up their e-mail addresses, etc
  100. # [00:28] <Lachy> ah, ok
  101. # [00:29] <Lachy> I didn't think they would repeat themselves in an e-mail, especially now that the link has already been sent
  102. # [00:30] <Hixie> they said they would
  103. # [00:31] <Hixie> so...
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  106. # [00:35] <othermaciej> I think they are planning to post some feedback in email
  107. # [00:35] <othermaciej> but it seems worth reading in any case
  108. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> I think it would be worthwhile to explicitly talk about the distinction between page-structure and section-content, and then state that some elements (like <aside>) fill both roles.
  109. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Just a quick mention would work; a sentence or so stating that explicitly in <aside>, and again perhaps in <footer> (though the semantics of footer are still utterly inappropriate for the intended structural role, unlike <aside>).
  110. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> I'll write up some example text and email it tonight.
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  113. # [00:48] * Curt` is now known as Curt`|food
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  118. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Okay, question: Say I have a sidebar composed of a site-nav, a blogroll, and a favorite quote. The first is obviously a <nav>, the latter two are <aside>s. However, I need to wrap the whole thing in a container to get it to sit on the side properly. This container should be a <div>, right?
  119. # [00:55] <hober> no, I think the sidebar itself is the <aside>, and it contains a <nav> and some other stuff
  120. # [00:56] <Hixie> <aside> <nav> </nav> <section> </section> <blockquote> </blockquote> </aside>
  121. # [00:56] <hober> the blogroll is a <ul> I imagine
  122. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> All right. If I *didn't* need to wrap them together (or explicitly need to *not* wrap them together), would the latter two be <aside>s by themselves?
  123. # [00:58] <hober> that would be one way to do it, sure.
  124. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> And is the meaning of <nav> changed by being wrapped in an <aside>?
  125. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> As opposed to putting a <nav> in a <header> or <footer>, that is.
  126. # [00:59] <hober> AFAICT the meaning of <nav> wouldn't change, no
  127. # [01:00] <hober> Nothing in #the-nav-element suggests that the semantics of <nav> change based on parentage
  128. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> I'm just making sure that it's acceptable to have a bare <nav> acting as a sidebar without <aside>.
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  131. # [01:00] <hober> if the only thing your sidebar contains is navigation, then that sounds like a fine use of <nav>
  132. # [01:00] * Quits: hobertoAtWork (n=hobertoa@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com) ("Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de")
  133. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Kk. I've got no particular problem with this, it's just that when an element is stated as "being for sidebars", I need to make sure that it's not *required* for sidebars.
  134. # [01:02] <Hixie> i think your problem here is that you are trying to design your markup around your presentation
  135. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I'm actually trying to discover to what extent I can *not* do that.
  136. # [01:02] <Hixie> you should write your markup with no CSS at all, and then only once you're completely happy with the markup without styles, open your css file in a text editor :-)
  137. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> So then I can suggest spec edits to make it clear to others.
  138. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> That's precisely what I already do. ^_^
  139. # [01:03] <Hixie> good :-)
  140. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Dude, you and tantek were my gods when I started webcoding. You guys were the first blogs I stumbled across that made sense.
  141. # [01:05] * Joins: krijn (n=krijnhoe@g179009.upc-g.chello.nl)
  142. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> So, would it be *acceptable* to have <div><nav /><aside .blogroll /><aside><blockquote /></aside></div>? Just trying to ascertain the flexibility that is intended here.
  143. # [01:06] <hober> now that pubdate="" is on <time>, I think it would make more sense if it applied to the nearest ancestor <article> element, or <body> if there is no such ancestor
  144. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> It already applies to the nearest ancestor <article>. Applying it to <body> is definitely needed, though, as <body> implies the semantics of <article>.
  145. # [01:07] <hober> I'm imagining a page that is just a document, where <body> is the sectioning element that represents the entire document. there's no need to add an <article> descendent that contains all descendents of <body>...
  146. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> hober: yeah
  147. # [01:08] <hober> I guess I'll write an email
  148. # [01:09] * TabAtkins really wishes he had figured out this <base> business a long time ago, before he started running into difficulties with content moving between paths.
  149. # [01:11] <Hixie> TabAtkins: if you find yourself needing <div>, then you're not doing markup before style. :-P
  150. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The issue is needing to adjust markup *after* styling fails due to limitations in CSS.
  151. # [01:11] <Hixie> ah
  152. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> When Template Layout is reliably present I'll be happy. ^_^
  153. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Yeah, so given an initial design where I have a <nav> and two <aside>s, is it okay to just <div>-wrap them to make them display properly, or do I *need* to <aside>-wrap them instead, and peel off the <aside>s wrapping the individual blocks.
  154. # [01:13] <hober> sent (re pubdate="")
  155. # [01:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: if you're adding elements purely for styling purposes, you should use <div>
  156. # [01:13] <Hixie> that's what <div> is for
  157. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know, just making sure that, even though there's an element *for* sidebars, it's still cool to collect things into a sidebar without it.
  158. # [01:14] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@67.180.202.79)
  159. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> I have tiny niggling inconsistencies in my brain that I'm ironing out right now.
  160. # [01:15] <hober> well, you should always use the element with the closest semantic to your need
  161. # [01:15] <ttepasse> The <main>-proposal got shot down, isn't it?
  162. # [01:15] <tantek> but not *over* semantic
  163. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> At least for now, yeah, ttepasse.
  164. # [01:15] <hober> tantek: indeed
  165. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> hober: I think tantek captured the point behind my questions. ^_^
  166. # [01:16] <tantek> TabAtkins - I don't like <main> either, but could have settled for <shead>, <sbody>, <sfoot>
  167. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> ttepasse: main content is anything that's not <header>/<footer>/<nav>/<aside>
  168. # [01:16] <tantek> TabAtkins - I *guarantee* that most web devs will just end up creating a <div class="content"> or something similar to go between <header> and <footer>
  169. # [01:16] * Quits: annodomini (n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda) (Client Quit)
  170. # [01:17] <tantek> it such a well established markup pattern
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  172. # [01:17] <ttepasse> ?anything that's not <header>, etc.? is not easily adressable by JS oder CSS.
  173. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> I do it about 50/50 depending on whether I have styling ned for it.
  174. # [01:17] <tantek> in fact, I doubt you would find many class="header" and class="footer" on a page without an intervening class="content" or class="main" etc. (s/class/id as apropos)
  175. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> ttepasse: Yeah, I know. But it's sensical to ATs, frex.
  176. # [01:18] <tantek> good point ttepasse
  177. # [01:18] <ttepasse> ATs, frex?
  178. # [01:18] * krijn joins the discussion
  179. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> AT = accessibility, um, I forget what the T is for. Frex = for example.
  180. # [01:18] <krijn> What's it about?
  181. # [01:18] <tantek> accessibility tools perhaps
  182. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> krijn: Pancakes or waffles: which is better?
  183. # [01:18] <krijn> Pancakes!
  184. # [01:19] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p4014-ipbf6801marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  185. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Good, you and I will flank the infidels.
  186. # [01:19] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p4014-ipbf6801marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  187. # [01:19] <krijn> I agree a <main> or <content> thingy would be handy
  188. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Hahahahahaha Myakura.
  189. # [01:19] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu) (Remote closed the connection)
  190. # [01:19] <krijn> Now see what you've done :)
  191. # [01:19] <tantek> TabAtkins - is that some sort of subconscious circle vs square preference? or perhaps flat (pancake) vs cellular (waffle)
  192. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> I use a <div .main/.middle/.content/.block> for the non-foo stuff whenever I need it for a CSS or JS hook, yeah.
  193. # [01:20] <krijn> Me too
  194. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> It's about a genital vs oral preference. Freud was all over this.
  195. # [01:20] * tantek prefers waffles because they are better structured to contain maple syrup in the cells.
  196. # [01:20] <krijn> Waffles remind me of tables
  197. # [01:20] <hober> yes, because the whole purpose of them is to deliver maple syrup (non-sarcastic)
  198. # [01:21] <krijn> And tables are evil, it seems
  199. # [01:21] <tantek> krijn HTML tables are simply misunderstood ;)
  200. # [01:21] <krijn> No, they are evil
  201. # [01:21] <hober> krijn: fortunately, maple syrup is tabular data
  202. # [01:21] <krijn> According to authors at least :)
  203. # [01:21] <hober> so marking it up in a waffle is approprate
  204. # [01:21] <krijn> So, concluding, we need a <waffle> tag
  205. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> I support this proposal.
  206. # [01:22] <krijn> Can we overrule Hixie without discussion already?
  207. # [01:22] <krijn> Or are we still not there yet?
  208. # [01:22] * TabAtkins delivers his breakfast over the wire.
  209. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Let's vote.
  210. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Aye for <waffle>, nay for <hixie>.
  211. # [01:22] <krijn> Aye
  212. # [01:22] <krijn> For the record, beer and aye saying don't match
  213. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> A <hixie> element ridicules your use of presentational markup. It's like <audio> but demeaning.
  214. # [01:23] <beowulf> someone say waffles?
  215. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Yes, how do waffles relate to the struggle to evangelize semantic markup, and the difficulties contained in keeping your fingers from getting sticky when using <td>s.
  216. # [01:26] * Hixie checks the air ducts for contaminants
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  218. # [01:26] <ttepasse> I hope <hixie> has a textual fallback.
  219. # [01:26] <krijn> Oh look, contaminants!
  220. # [01:26] <krijn> :)
  221. # [01:27] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-etraetvcrzdkbbuw)
  222. # [01:28] <krijn> Btw, the biggest liquor store in the Netherlands now uses HTML5 for their website \o/
  223. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Woo! \o/
  224. # [01:29] <krijn> In case anybody was waiting for that information
  225. # [01:29] <krijn> Thanks everybody in here for making that happen :)
  226. # [01:30] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
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  229. # [01:34] <krijn> And before I get to emotional, nn everybody
  230. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> later
  231. # [01:34] <krijn> o.
  232. # [01:35] <krijn> o/
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  234. # [01:35] <ttepasse> Why are there such strong restriction for permissible aria roles on some elements?
  235. # [01:35] <ttepasse> By my reading I can't do <table role="grid main"> or am I wrong?
  236. # [01:39] * Joins: erikvold (n=erikvvol@GANDALF.VKISTUDIOS.NET)
  237. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Where's that section again? I can never remember the name of it so I can't find it in the TOC.
  238. # [01:41] <ttepasse> 3.2.6
  239. # [01:42] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  240. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Hmm, so you're saying that the table itself is the main content all by itself?
  241. # [01:44] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-eziuftowvdfkvlii)
  242. # [01:46] <ttepasse> Yes. Think about a better markuped webserver directory listing. There may be additional stuff like a logo and navigation but the main content is the listing of files and directories.
  243. # [01:46] <Hixie> send mail if you think the restrictions should be relaxed
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  245. # [01:48] <tantek> TabAtkins - the obv use case for a <table> being the main content all by itself is a CSV file that's been transcoded into an HTML <table>
  246. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I was thinking something like that.
  247. # [01:48] <Hixie> can a role="" take two values btw? i thought it could only take one.
  248. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> Well, we've got a use-case for such right here.
  249. # [01:49] <ttepasse> /xhtml-role/ has even an example with two, so yes.
  250. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> A combination of a type and landmark role.
  251. # [01:49] <tantek> in fact, I wouldn't mind seeing a <csv> ... </csv> element that acted like a <pre> except 1. parsed for the comma separation and implied columns accordingly, and 2. provided a DOM similar to <table> for accessing all the rows and columns.
  252. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> ...
  253. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> I must code support for this tonight.
  254. # [01:50] <Hixie> i wonder what the UA conformance criteria are for two roles
  255. # [01:50] <tantek> This would rapidly accelerate the "webification" of the numerous CSV files out there (more and more being published due to OpenGov and OpenScience) efforts
  256. # [01:50] <Hixie> i don't understand what it would mean
  257. # [01:52] <hober> ttepasse: keep in mind that aria's role="" isn't the same attribute as the xhtml2wg role attribute spec
  258. # [01:52] <tantek> hober, thank goodness.
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  260. # [01:52] <ttepasse> Oh it is?
  261. # [01:52] <hober> tantek: :) srsly people, we already got one (class="")
  262. # [01:52] <ttepasse> There should be a "/TR/ for dummies" tutorial.
  263. # [01:54] <ttepasse> Hixie, http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-implementation-20090224/#mapping_role
  264. # [01:55] * tantek adds <csv> to the list of (perhaps crazy) proposals he has to write up for HTML5.
  265. # [01:55] <Hixie> ok so basically they allow it and then immediately say it's pointless
  266. # [01:55] <Hixie> good work
  267. # [01:56] <tantek> Hixie, of course, there's nothing like that in the HTML5 spec, <cough>img border="0"</cough>
  268. # [01:56] <tantek> ;)
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  271. # [01:59] <ttepasse> ?Because landmarks do not generally have mappings in platform accessibility APIs, they may occur anywhere within the role string without affecting how the first widget role is exposed.? ... sounds like my <table role="grid main"> is not so pointless but makes me wonder what landmarks are for. Custom UI in UAs?
  272. # [01:59] <Hixie> tantek: blame hsivonen, i hate that as much
  273. # [02:00] <tantek> Hixie - is there "blame" markup in the HTML5 spec? Kind of like blame in CVS...
  274. # [02:01] <Hixie> svn blame blames me for everything, but at least one of the checkin comments says "blame: hs" :-)
  275. # [02:02] * Curt`|food is now known as Curt`|busy
  276. # [02:03] <Hixie> btw, tantek, any idea when zeldman and co are sending their feedback in?
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  280. # [02:05] <Hixie> tantekc: btw, any idea when zeldman and co are sending their feedback in?
  281. # [02:05] <tantekc> Hixie, I believe we are all taking bits and pieces of http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/ and emailing them in - hence the "we are optimistic that the official channels provided by the working group will offer a sufficient and fair hearing of our concerns"
  282. # [02:05] <tantekc> Hixie, I believe we are all taking bits and pieces of http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/ and emailing them in - hence the "we are optimistic that the official channels provided by the working group will offer a sufficient and fair hearing of our concerns"
  283. # [02:05] <Hixie> k
  284. # [02:06] <Hixie> any idea what the time frame on that is?
  285. # [02:06] <tantekc> As you know, I prefer to document things on the web first, and then email in URLs.
  286. # [02:06] <tantekc> timeframe: as soon as possible
  287. # [02:06] <Hixie> if you could mail in text, that would make my life much easier, fwiw
  288. # [02:06] <tantekc> ok I will mention that you prefer plain text email
  289. # [02:06] <Hixie> thanks
  290. # [02:07] <tantekc> Hixie, have you documented your Communication Preferences anywhere online? E.g. http://tr.im/comms
  291. # [02:07] <tantekc> if you have, please give me the URL and I will happily link to it
  292. # [02:07] <Hixie> tantekc: "Comments are very welcome, please send them to whatwg@whatwg.org. Thank you."
  293. # [02:07] <Hixie> (top of the spec)
  294. # [02:07] <tantekc> I meant in general, your personal prefs.
  295. # [02:08] <tantekc> because obviously you eventually look at bugs filed, blog posts, blog post comments etc.
  296. # [02:08] <tantekc> (perhaps not guaranteed, but that seems to be the emergent behavior)
  297. # [02:08] <Hixie> oh you mean in general? no, no preferred communication style.
  298. # [02:09] <Hixie> i have an antipreference for phone communication and anything involving burning gasoline or going through TSA checkpoints
  299. # [02:09] <tantekc> so the only communication preference you have has to do with the HTML5 project
  300. # [02:09] <Hixie> yeah
  301. # [02:09] <Hixie> well, i mean, my preferences are specific to whatever i'm doing
  302. # [02:09] <tantekc> you've written up a scathing deconstruction of telcons for example (most of which I agree with)
  303. # [02:09] <Hixie> (i have a preference for HTML5, simply because there are certain things that are easier to dealing with)
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  305. # [02:09] <Hixie> i wrote an e-mail recently... let's see
  306. # [02:10] <tantekc> anyway - it might be useful to see them in an ordered list
  307. # [02:10] <tantekc> with perhaps a threshold for, -- below this point I will avoid these forms of communication --
  308. # [02:10] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0616.html
  309. # [02:10] <tantekc> and then you can list phone, f2f, flying etc.
  310. # [02:11] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@nat/google/x-nebuwcfhbywgfubf)
  311. # [02:11] <tantekc> yeah that one - I read it.
  312. # [02:11] <tantekc> a good write up
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  314. # [02:11] <Hixie> e-mail, irc, jabber, aim, msn, yahoo messenger; twitter, blogs; forums i have to register for; meetings. I don't have a phone.
  315. # [02:11] <Hixie> where ";" indicates a threshold, so all things between ; are equally ok
  316. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> tantekc: http://www.xanthir.com/etc/csv.html
  317. # [02:12] <tantekc> anyway - g2g, but just wanted say thanks Hixie for already fixing a bunch of stuff in HTML5 that Zeldman et al gave feedback on (e.g. the "HTML5" vs. "HTML 5" inconsistency) - pretty much all that feedback was a consensus result of the "HTML5 Super Friends"
  318. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> Not perfect yet - I need to copy over all attributes of the original <csv> element - but still, working!
  319. # [02:13] <tantekc> TabAtkins - WHOA! that is super cool
  320. # [02:13] <TabAtkins> Super easy. ^_^
  321. # [02:13] <tantekc> I might wrap the <csv> in a <pre> for backward compat display
  322. # [02:14] <TabAtkins> Would be fine - you sorta expect csvs to be fixed-width anyway.
  323. # [02:14] <tantekc> right
  324. # [02:14] <tantekc> or maybe just use a style sheet
  325. # [02:14] <tantekc> csv {whitespace:pre}
  326. # [02:14] <tantekc> that ought to do it
  327. # [02:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that'd work.
  328. # [02:15] <tantekc> TabAtkins - want to collaborate on a joint <csv> proposal submission for HTML5?
  329. # [02:15] * Joins: webben (n=benh@79-68-210-124.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com)
  330. # [02:15] <tantekc> like I said, g2g now, but I can start drafting something based on the above
  331. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> Note - that would make the original CSV, and presumably a native CSV, look pre, but wouldn't affect the js-shim csv.
  332. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> Sure, tantekc.
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  334. # [02:16] * scherkus_ is now known as scherkus
  335. # [02:17] <tantekc> scientists will *love* <csv> for easily publishing data sets on the web
  336. # [02:17] <tantekc> this is going to be a big enabler for open science on today's web. (my current thoughts: http://tr.im/openscience )
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  339. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> Heh, cool.
  340. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> So, how do I iterate through a DOM Node's attributes?
  341. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> node.namedNodeMap()?
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  344. # [02:24] <othermaciej> node.attributes
  345. # [02:25] <othermaciej> (or really, element.attributes)
  346. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> Since I program in jQuery, not js, does that return an array? Or some exotic DOM structure? If the latter, how do I iterate through it?
  347. # [02:26] <Binarytales> i think it's an array
  348. # [02:26] <TabAtkins> It looks like it at least acts like one. $.each() can handle anything with .length
  349. # [02:27] <othermaciej> it's a NamedNodeMap; I don
  350. # [02:27] <othermaciej> 't know about jQuery details
  351. # [02:27] * TabAtkins is testing
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  353. # [02:30] <TabAtkins> All right, got it. Yeah, $.each() handles it fine.
  354. # [02:32] <TabAtkins> Though I should probably translate this to plain DOM...
  355. # [02:33] <TabAtkins> I need to go look at what jQuery actually does for each of these functions so I can back-translate.
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  365. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> Hrm, does IE treat linebreaks funny? I'm trying to do a .split("\n"), but it's a no-go in IE. Perhaps auto-translating to \r\n?
  366. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> Context: textContent of an unknown element, hacked into recognition with the document.createElement shim.
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  368. # [02:44] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: That sounds familiar, but I can't say more than that.
  369. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> Hm, doesn't seem to help.
  370. # [02:44] <GPHemsley> :P
  371. # [02:44] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@71.202.109.116)
  372. # [02:44] <GPHemsley> hey hey!
  373. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> Not you. ^_^ Changing to .split("\r\n") doesn't help.
  374. # [02:45] <GPHemsley> oh, heh
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  377. # [02:56] <TabAtkins> Okay, IE does newline normalization immediately, unless it has white-space:pre.
  378. # [02:56] <TabAtkins> So I got the newlines, now I'm just trying to figure out how to split by them...
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  381. # [03:10] <dpranke> hixie / anyone : is there a reason why <select>, <input type="range">, and <input type="number"> don't support the "readonly" attribute?
  382. # [03:10] <Hixie> type=number does
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  384. # [03:11] <Hixie> <select>, <input type=range>, <input type=radio>, <button>, etc, don't, because they're not text fields.
  385. # [03:12] <dpranke> you're right about number, sorry, I read too fast.
  386. # [03:15] <dpranke> what's the difference between disabled and readonly? It looks like disabled is readonly plus the control doesn't receive events? Why have readonly be able to receive events?
  387. # [03:15] <dpranke> or is there some other useful difference between disabled and readonly?
  388. # [03:16] <Hixie> the point of readonly is to allow users to copy the text from the control
  389. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> OMG, finally got IE to recognize a newline and split on it. The <csv> proposal marches on!
  390. # [03:17] <dpranke> ah. okay. does it make sense to add a clarifying note to that effect to the spec, or is this common knowledge?
  391. # [03:17] <Hixie> it's basic UI design :-)
  392. # [03:19] <dpranke> ok, thanks!
  393. # [03:22] * jcranmer marvels at how much space The Great Codec Wars took up in his WHATWG folder
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  398. # [03:29] <Hixie> oh dear, othermaciej is now being dragged into actually running these meetings
  399. # [03:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: I can live with running 1/3 of them or so
  400. # [03:29] * Joins: jorlow (n=jorlow@220.109.219.244)
  401. # [03:29] <othermaciej> but yes, that was part of the cost, along with my soul
  402. # [03:29] <Hixie> nothing says we _must_ have telecons
  403. # [03:30] <othermaciej> I'm not going to propose canceling telecons, at least not right now
  404. # [03:30] <Hixie> in fact our charter, rather than requiring one a week, says that we're not allowed to have _more_ than one a week
  405. # [03:30] <Hixie> and says they should only be as needed
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  407. # [03:30] <Hixie> it's your time :-)
  408. # [03:30] <Hixie> you spend it as you think best :-)
  409. # [03:30] <othermaciej> I think some of the people who attend get value out of it, and I'm willing to spend an hour of my time to give them that value
  410. # [03:31] <othermaciej> particularly if it helps some of those people also get involved by email
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  417. # [03:44] <othermaciej> this is kind of sad, but I'm actually proud of the way I formatted the agenda email
  418. # [03:46] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103?changelog
  419. # [03:47] <rubys> that action was assigned to Lachlan... but he never responded to emails checking for status.
  420. # [03:47] <rubys> 2009-01-29 17:54:35: Owner changed to 'Lachlan Hunt' [Dan Connolly]
  421. # [03:47] <rubys> 2009-05-07 16:10:37: Owner changed to 'Julian Reschke' [Dan Connolly]
  422. # [03:48] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/75 is already closed
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  427. # [04:00] <othermaciej> rubys: I'll just make those adjustments in-flight rather than confusing people by changing the agenda
  428. # [04:00] <othermaciej> rubys: thanks!
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  476. # [07:39] <cardona507> is there a firefox extension similar to codeburner (the firebug plug-in) for html 5?
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  484. # [08:17] <hsivonen> looks like we have a new case of adding attributes in JS to work around validators: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1145880/can-autocapitalize-be-turned-off-with-javascript-in-mobile-safari
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  500. # [09:18] <Lachy> dammit, why did apple feel the need to create more proprietary attributes for autocapitalize and autocorrect?!
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  506. # [09:30] <Hixie> did printers get slower? i could have sworn that 20 years ago laserjets were printing at least as fast as the ones i'm seeing on HP's site today, and they warmed up faster at that.
  507. # [09:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: the high end probably hasn't gotten slower but a lower end got introduced and people started bying those
  508. # [09:31] <Hixie> where do you find the high end?
  509. # [09:32] <Hixie> i can't even find a single 802.11x printer on HP's site
  510. # [09:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: at Kinko's
  511. # [09:32] * Joins: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108)
  512. # [09:32] <Hixie> (laserjet printer, that is)
  513. # [09:32] <Hixie> heh
  514. # [09:32] <Hixie> i mean to buy :-)
  515. # [09:33] <hsivonen> hmm. I don't know if HP has exited the high end market and left it to Xerox and Canon
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  517. # [09:33] <hsivonen> (I don't know where to buy those)
  518. # [09:33] <Hixie> "First color page in less than 16 seconds" $3199.99
  519. # [09:33] <Hixie> 16 seconds?!
  520. # [09:34] <Hixie> (HP Color LaserJet 5550dn Printer )
  521. # [09:34] <annevk2> is that including boot-time or so?
  522. # [09:34] <annevk2> and 3200 for a printer is a lot
  523. # [09:35] <Hixie> yes and yes
  524. # [09:35] <Hixie> for $3199.99 i expect my printer to be printing before i ask it to
  525. # [09:37] * annevk2 has a EUR 80 (or less, don't really remember) black/white-laserjet that he almost never needs
  526. # [09:38] <Lachy> I gave up on owning a printer. My old, affordable, inkjet printers kept drying out cause I don't print frequently enough, and when I do, I just do it at the office
  527. # [09:39] <Hixie> yeah this isn't for me
  528. # [09:39] <Hixie> i haven't printed in like a decade
  529. # [09:41] <Hixie> what are the quality printer manufacturers these days? is HP still it?
  530. # [09:41] <Lachy> Hixie, is it intended for personal use by whoever you're getting it for, or office use?
  531. # [09:41] <Hixie> what's the difference?
  532. # [09:42] <Lachy> different feature requirements
  533. # [09:42] <annevk2> Hixie, canon is also ok, not sure about laserjet
  534. # [09:43] <Lachy> like, an office printer would probably need an ethernet connection and be optimised for network setup, whereas personal use might not need that
  535. # [09:44] <annevk2> for network setup you could always buy one of those apple thingies
  536. # [09:44] <annevk2> with a usb-in
  537. # [09:44] <Hixie> the requirements are: high quality (laser jet), network printer using 802.11g or n, color, automatic double-sided printing, fast per page and fast from cold.
  538. # [09:44] <Hixie> and reliable.
  539. # [09:44] <Lachy> annevk2, the Airport Extreme or possibly Airport Express
  540. # [09:44] <Hixie> i'd rather it have built in networking
  541. # [09:46] <Hixie> HP doesn't have a printer that meets those requirements.
  542. # [09:46] <annevk2> i've no experience at all with such beasts
  543. # [09:46] <Hixie> at least not according to their site.
  544. # [09:46] <Lachy> Hixie, so just printing, and no need for scanner/copier/fax functions?
  545. # [09:46] <annevk2> my printer is in the closet and I take it out every couple of months to print some stupid expense report
  546. # [09:46] <Hixie> right
  547. # [09:48] <Lachy> Hixie, http://www.brother-usa.com/Printer/ModelDetail.aspx?ProductID=HL4070CDW
  548. # [09:49] <Hixie> looks interesting
  549. # [09:49] <Lachy> still 17 seconds for first print though
  550. # [09:49] <Lachy> for colour
  551. # [09:49] <Philip`> annevk2: You should use a commercial printing service for that, and then charge it on expenses
  552. # [09:50] <Hixie> yeah, still slow though
  553. # [09:50] <Hixie> both starting up and printing
  554. # [09:50] <Lachy> you consider 21ppm slow?
  555. # [09:51] <Lachy> that's 1 page every 3 seconds
  556. # [09:52] <Hixie> that's not faster than 20 years ago
  557. # [09:52] <annevk2> Philip`, I'll ask for your advice next time :)
  558. # [09:52] <Hixie> so yes, i consider that slow
  559. # [09:52] <annevk2> Philip`, meanwhile, charset stats? :)
  560. # [09:52] <Lachy> so how many pages per minute are you expecting?
  561. # [09:52] <annevk2> Hixie, is this how you remember 20 years ago?
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  563. # [09:52] <Hixie> annevk2: :-P
  564. # [09:52] <Philip`> Does anybody give double-sided printing speeds?
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  566. # [09:53] * hsivonen only has a printer for paper-based accounting use cases
  567. # [09:54] * Philip` presumes 21ppm is one-sided, because all printers he's seen do double-sided make the paper go backwards and forwards lots of times before popping out and it takes forever
  568. # [09:54] <hsivonen> though when it exists, it can occasionally be used for printing train tickets
  569. # [09:55] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, agreed
  570. # [09:55] <Lachy> http://www.office.xerox.com/printers/color-printers/phaser-7760/enus.html
  571. # [09:56] <Lachy> 35ppm for colour
  572. # [09:56] <Lachy> 45ppm for black
  573. # [09:56] <Lachy> "First-page-out time as fast as 9 seconds for color"
  574. # [09:57] <Lachy> Is that fast enough?
  575. # [09:57] <annevk2> no wifi though
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  579. # [09:58] <Lachy> yeah, but I was only searching for speed to see if it was possible to find anything at all fast enough for Hixie
  580. # [09:58] <Hixie> Lachy: hmm, that's better than i've seen so far
  581. # [09:59] <Lachy> Hixie, "With print speeds of up to 35 pages per minute for colour and 45 ppm for black and white and a first-page-out time of nine seconds for colour, the Phaser is considered one of the fastest printers in its class. " -- http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-158653373.html
  582. # [09:59] <jgraham> Maybe there is a limit to how fast you can physically pull paper through a printer without bad side effects
  583. # [10:01] <jgraham> Anyway we had some Xerox phaser thing when I was doing my PhD and it seemed OK. It got used a lot and didn't break down often or anything
  584. # [10:01] <Hixie> cool
  585. # [10:02] <Hixie> good to know what the top of the line is, at least
  586. # [10:02] <jgraham> Colour reprodution was pretty poor. Dunno how fast it was or anything
  587. # [10:02] <hsivonen> are there color lasers whose color reproduction doesn't suck?
  588. # [10:02] * hsivonen thought color lasers were for printing powerpoint slides
  589. # [10:03] <hsivonen> and ad bureaus and the like used slower and more expensive non-laser stuff
  590. # [10:03] <jgraham> In this case they were for printing science papers where relative colour tends to be more important than absolute colour
  591. # [10:03] <jgraham> s/they were/it was/
  592. # [10:03] <Hixie> yeah if you want to do something where colour really matters, you do ink jets, i think
  593. # [10:04] <Hixie> but then if i'm printing photos, i'm gonna be using a photo printing shop
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  595. # [10:04] <hsivonen> are wax printers still on the market?
  596. # [10:05] <Hixie> is that "solid ink"?
  597. # [10:05] <jgraham> 9we were very licky to have a good colour printer at all; it was only because my group had seperate funding from the rest of the department. The department colour laserjet _really_ sucked)
  598. # [10:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: could be. I don't know.
  599. # [10:06] <jgraham> s/9/(/ and s/licky/lucky/
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  608. # [10:41] <Mrmil> I hate IE
  609. # [10:42] <krijnh> High five!
  610. # [10:43] <Mrmil> Highway to Hell
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  619. # [11:12] <hsivonen> I'm puzzled. With my latest HTML5 parser refactoring, jquery on http://webtrendmap.com/craigmod/161/ dies due to document.body being null
  620. # [11:12] <hsivonen> I wonder how that can happen
  621. # [11:12] <gsnedders> Because there's a bug.
  622. # [11:12] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Script in <head> before body is created?
  623. # [11:13] <hsivonen> Dashiva: jquery is in head, yes
  624. # [11:13] <hsivonen> Dashiva: but it works without the HTML5 parser refactoring
  625. # [11:13] <hsivonen> I wonder if I've accidentally caused onload or DOMContentLoaded to fire prematurely or something like that
  626. # [11:14] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  627. # [11:16] <gsnedders> I think you should never fire them.
  628. # [11:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: You miss Philip`?
  629. # [11:18] <gsnedders> Huh?
  630. # [11:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, it's my Swedish Mummy, Daddy, and Nanny I miss :P
  631. # [11:18] <jgraham> Well you have started filling in the "useless suggestions" role
  632. # [11:18] <gsnedders> I've always done that quite a bit, though.
  633. # [11:20] <hsivonen> sigh. I have a crash, too.
  634. # [11:20] <hsivonen> how hard can it be to move some code around?
  635. # [11:21] <gsnedders> Very.
  636. # [11:21] <hsivonen> refcounting is a house of cards
  637. # [11:22] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Remote closed the connection)
  638. # [11:23] <hsivonen> apparently moving code around is fairly easy, but splitting one refcounted object into many is a can of worms
  639. # [11:23] <annevk2> xmlns issue still unadressed
  640. # [11:24] <annevk2> are these people just incompetent at XML namespaces while happily using them?
  641. # [11:24] <gsnedders> annevk2: Then I guess we can free it
  642. # [11:24] <hsivonen> annevk2: in the RDFa draft?
  643. # [11:24] <annevk2> yes
  644. # [11:24] <Philip`> gsnedders: You don't miss me? :-(
  645. # [11:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: Sorry, but jgraham just means so much more to me.
  646. # [11:24] <annevk2> it has been raised like a bazillion times
  647. # [11:25] <annevk2> my last email on this subject never had a reply I think
  648. # [11:25] <annevk2> I think they just don't get it
  649. # [11:25] <Philip`> Their response to http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-in-html-issues#Script-based_modification_of_DOM (further down that page) seems to miss the issue with that example
  650. # [11:25] <annevk2> I guess if you don't get XML namespaces they look all nice and dandy :)
  651. # [11:25] <hsivonen> annevk2: usually, if one "gets" namespaces, one wants to avoid them
  652. # [11:25] * Philip` should probably look at this again some time, and try to clarify what still seems to be a problem
  653. # [11:25] <annevk2> right :)
  654. # [11:27] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  655. # [11:30] <annevk2> ah, othermaciej raised the issue as well and manu didn't get it
  656. # [11:31] <annevk2> he in fact simply snipped that comment from othermaciej's review
  657. # [11:31] <othermaciej> did he?
  658. # [11:31] <othermaciej> I thought he replied to that point (and I replied back)
  659. # [11:32] <othermaciej> it also looks like he pasted my comments about xmlns in text/html into the wiki
  660. # [11:32] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0082.html in 4.3 your point about the DOM being different is no longer there
  661. # [11:32] <othermaciej> it is here though: http://rdfa.info/wiki/Html5-rdfa-wd-issues#4.2_Invalid_XMLLiteral_values
  662. # [11:33] <othermaciej> er
  663. # [11:33] <othermaciej> not in the 4.2 section
  664. # [11:33] <othermaciej> but you know what I mean
  665. # [11:33] <othermaciej> he only directly replied to a few of my points and recorded the rest on the wiki
  666. # [11:33] <annevk2> i see
  667. # [11:34] <othermaciej> if you look at my further email, what XHTML+RDFa says about prefix binding is broken even for XML
  668. # [11:34] <annevk2> his reply still shows misunderstanding of the issue but I guess they're working on that then...
  669. # [11:35] <annevk2> i love it that such crap comes from the same people who claim XML is easy
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  673. # [11:37] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I suspect RDFa is layered on top of XML 1.0--not on top of XML 1.0 + Namespaces
  674. # [11:38] <othermaciej> hsivonen: does that negate the error I pointed out in its rules about prefix bindings?
  675. # [11:38] <hsivonen> othermaciej: which is a pretty fundamental layering violation but gets an applause, because it looks like it's layered on top of Namespaces
  676. # [11:38] <othermaciej> (I don't think it does)
  677. # [11:39] <annevk2> hsivonen, that cannot be for real
  678. # [11:39] <annevk2> hsivonen, RDFa also references XMLNS
  679. # [11:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think what you said stands
  680. # [11:40] <othermaciej> RDFa cites XMLNS, I am not sure what aspect makes it layered on top of XML 1.0
  681. # [11:40] <hsivonen> annevk2: I guess I need to look up an email from Mark Birbeck
  682. # [11:41] <othermaciej> the text I cited does seem to be treating XML namespace declarations as just ordinary attributes, but that seems to be just a symptom of its generally wrong use of terminology
  683. # [11:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: I thought the idea is it's layered on XHTML (1.1 or Modularization or something), which is layered on Namespaces to some extent
  684. # [11:42] <Philip`> (though not to a particularly well defined extent)
  685. # [11:42] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/mid/4A291657.9020805@cam.ac.uk
  686. # [11:42] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think it's a symptom of not layering the spec over Namespace but using xmlns as a trompe-l’œil
  687. # [11:43] <othermaciej> it would probably make more sense for it to cite Namespaces in XML for namespace scoping instead of having its own rule for how to do it
  688. # [11:43] <Philip`> It might partly come from viewing XML documents as strings which follow a certain grammar, instead of as a DOM/Infoset-like tree
  689. # [11:43] <annevk2> hsivonen, ah yeah, it does do that
  690. # [11:43] <othermaciej> although that would mean more work to define how it works in text/html
  691. # [11:44] <Philip`> (The XML spec itself seems to be designed from the string viewpoint)
  692. # [11:44] <annevk2> Philip`, which is weird at least for <?xml encoding="..."
  693. # [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk2: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0109.html
  694. # [11:45] <othermaciej> anyway, I'm glad Manu put forth a technical proposal this time instead of a procedural one, even if it seems like it needs work
  695. # [11:46] <hsivonen> gotta go to lunch
  696. # [11:47] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Remote closed the connection)
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  698. # [11:47] <hsivonen> just got Snow Leopard in the mail. I wonder if I should wait until 10.6.1 before I install...
  699. # [11:47] <othermaciej> it seems like they could just use the "Namespaces in XML" definition of namespace prefixes in scope, even if they use the prefixes for non-namespace reasons
  700. # [11:48] <othermaciej> 10.6.0 is better than the average 10.n.0
  701. # [11:48] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@p54BE8BA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  702. # [11:49] <othermaciej> it seems like HTML+RDFa needs to make @rev and various other attributes conforming
  703. # [11:50] <Philip`> It probably needs to do something similar to what's in http://philip.html5.org/docs/rdfa/
  704. # [11:50] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  705. # [11:51] <Philip`> (except probably without copying-and-pasting the RDFa-in-XHTML processing model, because duplication is bad)
  706. # [11:51] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  707. # [11:51] <Philip`> (and the issues with e.g. precisely defined attribute parsing apply to XHTML as much as to HTML)
  708. # [11:53] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@p54BE8BA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  709. # [11:56] <othermaciej> Philip`: that draft looks much more precise, despite its unfinished state
  710. # [11:56] <othermaciej> Philip`: might be good to point out that draft on the list
  711. # [11:56] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Remote closed the connection)
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  713. # [11:57] <Philip`> I wonder if I should try rewriting it to remove the duplication of the processing model, since that seemed to be the main objection to it
  714. # [11:57] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-109-187.customers.d1-online.com)
  715. # [11:59] * Philip` could probably attempt that this afternoon
  716. # [12:01] * Joins: alkarin (i=5e79a885@gateway/web/freenode/x-scnuebatailfevij)
  717. # [12:03] <othermaciej> Philip`: if you have the time to pursue it, then I would encourage you to pursue that and post the draft
  718. # [12:03] <alkarin> greetings everybody
  719. # [12:03] * alkarin posts: http://kunter.posterous.com/html-5-super-concerns
  720. # [12:08] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  721. # [12:13] <beowulf> is it worth saying that <dialog> should allow <li> rather that <dt><dd>, or if no <dialog> then the old advice of using <dl> for dialog should be updated to allow <li>?
  722. # [12:14] <annevk2> it's prolly better to start from scratch if you want to do something different
  723. # [12:14] <alkarin> unless one of us not planning to unleash a chat server or a walky-talky page, I think most designer will straight pass this dialog idea.
  724. # [12:14] <annevk2> because it's unclear what use cases everyone has in mind
  725. # [12:14] <alkarin> : concurs.
  726. # [12:14] <beowulf> annevk2: my use case is krijnh's logs
  727. # [12:15] <annevk2> i think just like for footnotes the spec should just give a few ideas on how you can mark such things up
  728. # [12:15] <alkarin> if we are to avoid DIV tags because they are regarded as unambigious, then we'll need to have a hundred more
  729. # [12:15] <annevk2> instead of dedicating an element to it
  730. # [12:16] <annevk2> or like tag clouds
  731. # [12:16] <beowulf> annevk2: sounds fair
  732. # [12:22] * Joins: Binarytales (n=Binaryta@host81-157-254-162.range81-157.btcentralplus.com)
  733. # [12:25] <erlehmann> beowulf, can you tell me again how several people saying the same thing could be conveyed with ordered lists ?
  734. # [12:25] <erlehmann> beowulf, also got around to researching the alledged small screen rendering issues ?
  735. # [12:26] <erlehmann> annevk2, i was thinking footnotes were <aside> ?
  736. # [12:28] <erlehmann> i'll probably style them as small inline text or expandable inline container (with :hover and :focus) as long as CSS hasn't footnote / endnote capabilities
  737. # [12:33] <annevk2> erlehmann, not always
  738. # [12:38] <erlehmann> annevk2, can you clarify the other possibilities ?
  739. # [12:40] <annevk2> see spec
  740. # [12:43] <beowulf> erlehmann: surely i only need to tell you once, then you accept or deny my claim
  741. # [12:44] <erlehmann> beowulf, curse your sudden and inevitable dialog-hate :D
  742. # [12:45] <beowulf> erlehmann: i no longer work for dotmobi so getting access to the test suite isn't easy, but as i recall default styling on dd's creates an indent that makes viewing content difficult due to the shortened measure.
  743. # [12:45] <erlehmann> oh, its that
  744. # [12:45] <erlehmann> but its only default styiling
  745. # [12:46] <beowulf> that's all some mobile have
  746. # [12:46] <beowulf> mobiles
  747. # [12:46] <erlehmann> o.0
  748. # [12:46] <beowulf> i did say low end
  749. # [12:46] <erlehmann> then speak to mobile browser vendors ?
  750. # [12:47] <beowulf> lol
  751. # [12:47] <erlehmann> i must admit, i have not heard of the low-end you are talking about. i tried WAP and went straight to smartfones that CAN do CSS
  752. # [12:47] <beowulf> cool
  753. # [12:47] <erlehmann> but bad default styling is not something to be said against an element, but against an implementation, amiwrong?
  754. # [12:48] <beowulf> i did say this wasn't a big issue with dt/dd in dialog
  755. # [12:48] <beowulf> a corner case i'd say
  756. # [12:48] <beowulf> a corner of a corner case
  757. # [12:49] <erlehmann> so whats the big issue then ? chatlogs surely are markup-able in <dialog>s
  758. # [12:50] <erlehmann> maybe the timestamp thingy needs more consideration. <time> elements in dialogs seem nice
  759. # [12:50] <beowulf> the issue for me is it's not clear how you'd mark up a join, away, part, quit, disconnect, netsplit, nickchange, status change, etc in a dt/dd
  760. # [12:50] <erlehmann> besides, i can envision an XML transform to convert an XMPP stream into <dialog>
  761. # [12:51] <beowulf> but i don't think anyone cares enough about dialog, so... :)
  762. # [12:51] <erlehmann> beowulf, i believe you are looking for something completely different than anyone else. <dialog> seems to be a natural conversation
  763. # [12:51] <erlehmann> like, a play
  764. # [12:51] <erlehmann> OH ROMEO
  765. # [12:51] <erlehmann> etc.
  766. # [12:51] <beowulf> exeunt
  767. # [12:52] <beowulf> romeo and juliet in dt/dd would be horrible
  768. # [12:52] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  769. # [12:53] <Binarytales> could you not just do <dialog><dt class"joins"><time>12:46</time>Dave</dt>..... or <dialog><time>12:46</time><span class="action">joined</span>Dave</dt>
  770. # [12:53] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  771. # [12:53] <Binarytales> there are too many different "actions" to give them a special attribute or tag
  772. # [12:54] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  773. # [12:54] <erlehmann> Binarytales, i would break from the dialog and describe the actions in a simple paragraph
  774. # [12:55] <erlehmann> maybe <p> inside <dialog> should be allowed ?
  775. # [12:56] <Binarytales> yeah that would make sense, especially for longer things like stage directions for plays or describing non dialougue souns or actions in transcriptts
  776. # [12:56] <Binarytales> IRC always turns my typing to mush :(
  777. # [12:57] <erlehmann> i'll type a mail to the list
  778. # [12:58] <beowulf> <section item id=dialog>...</section>
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  780. # [13:00] <Binarytales> I'm guessing the same rules apply to dialouge that do to dl so that if multiple people say the same thing at the same time then you could use multiple dt for the same dd
  781. # [13:00] <hsivonen> <dialog> is doing great at stopping permathreads...
  782. # [13:01] <Binarytales> oh..... "Zero or more pairs of one dt element followed by one dd element."
  783. # [13:01] <Binarytales> i think that should be the same as a dl
  784. # [13:01] <Binarytales> "Zero or more groups each consisting of one or more dt elements followed by one or more dd elements."
  785. # [13:02] <Binarytales> then if <p> was allowed you should be able to do <dt>Dave</dt><dd>Hmmm....</dd><p>he goes to the window</p><dd>I hadn't though of that</dd>
  786. # [13:07] <Binarytales> I also think that dt's in dialogue should be allowed the datetime attribute
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  790. # [13:13] <Hixie> I simply cannot find a full duplex, wifi-enabled, mac-compatible, color printer with a good consumables story and that isn't really slow for under $2000.
  791. # [13:13] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-109-187.customers.d1-online.com)
  792. # [13:14] <jgraham> Hixie: What is your use case that requires > 20ppm but is used infrequently enough that cold start up time is a major issue?
  793. # [13:14] <Hixie> it doesn't have to be > 20ppm really
  794. # [13:14] <Hixie> the use case is me not tearing my hair out if i want to print something
  795. # [13:15] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-109-187.customers.d1-online.com) (Client Quit)
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  797. # [13:15] <Hixie> i expect my hardware to do what i tell it to, when i tell it
  798. # [13:15] <Hixie> not three minutes later
  799. # [13:15] <Hixie> some of these printers have multi-minute boot times
  800. # [13:15] <Hixie> my fricking _computers_ don't take that long to boot
  801. # [13:15] <annevk2> I thought it was not for you? :)
  802. # [13:16] <Hixie> it isn't, but i know who's going to end up doing the drafting for the work that does get printed
  803. # [13:16] <Hixie> :-)
  804. # [13:17] <Hixie> the Brother HL 4070CDW is the only one that matches the criteria on paper for under $2000, but it apparently does a horrible job of consumables
  805. # [13:17] <Hixie> it literally has a page count after which it just claims the toner is empty
  806. # [13:17] <Hixie> rather than actually caring about whether there really is toner left
  807. # [13:17] <annevk2> i'm sure people hacked that :)
  808. # [13:18] <Hixie> i shouldn't need to hack my printer to make it work right
  809. # [13:18] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if my Brother laser printer does that. I've never had to change the toner
  810. # [13:18] <Dashiva> What if you drop wifi-enabled?
  811. # [13:19] <hsivonen> isn't hacking a toner cartridge a DMCA violation these days or something?
  812. # [13:19] <Hixie> if i drop wifi-enabled, there's a number of printers, such as the Phaser 8560/DN, that look rather nice
  813. # [13:19] <Hixie> but wifi-enabled without an external dongle is not something i want to drop
  814. # [13:20] <Hixie> the Canon Color imageRUNNER LBP5975 looks pretty nice and has (optional) built-in wifi, but it costs about $3000.
  815. # [13:20] <annevk2> don't you have an Apple router of some sorts with usb-in?
  816. # [13:20] * Joins: Binarytales (n=Binaryta@host81-157-254-162.range81-157.btcentralplus.com)
  817. # [13:20] * annevk2 thought everyone had an Airport Express these days
  818. # [13:20] <Hixie> the room i'm putting this in has no networking at all
  819. # [13:20] <hsivonen> I learned recently that sometimes it pays to accept external dongles even though they suck
  820. # [13:20] * Joins: fupp (n=User@mg038a.studby.ntnu.no)
  821. # [13:21] <Dashiva> Still, a dongle seems preferable to $1000 or more in extra price
  822. # [13:21] <annevk2> airport express just requires electricity
  823. # [13:21] <Hixie> (and i honestly do not believe that the airport extreme with a usb port on the back is going to work that well)
  824. # [13:21] <hsivonen> my parents bought a silly expensive TV in order to have a built-in DVR
  825. # [13:21] <Hixie> (e.g. can i print from linux to an airport extreme?)
  826. # [13:21] <annevk2> Hixie, you don't need extreme
  827. # [13:21] <jgraham> It seems like an external router might be worth it for a saving of $1000
  828. # [13:21] <hsivonen> after hardware and firmware upgrades they returned it
  829. # [13:21] <fupp> where can I find docs on the treewalker in html5lib?
  830. # [13:21] <Hixie> s/airport extreme/airport express/, sorry
  831. # [13:21] <hsivonen> because the firmware upgrade to make parts of it work regressed more essential features
  832. # [13:21] <annevk2> Hixie, I've never tried that, but I think there are ways to make it work for Linux
  833. # [13:21] <Dashiva> Let printers be printers and TVs be TVs :)
  834. # [13:22] <Hixie> annevk2: my willingless to spend time making things work is minimal
  835. # [13:22] <Hixie> annevk2: i expect to plug the printer into a power outlet, and be able to print.
  836. # [13:22] <jgraham> fupp: If there aren't any on the wiki page (http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/ ) they probably don't exist
  837. # [13:22] <jgraham> There should be some there though
  838. # [13:23] <jgraham> Hixie: Ah, I see you really haven't used a printer for 10 years
  839. # [13:23] <fupp> jgraham: there was a small example, but only how to create the treewalker, I didn't find anything about what method it has
  840. # [13:23] <jgraham> fupp: It's an iterator. So you can do for item in tw: print item
  841. # [13:23] <Hixie> jgraham: it seems to work that way at work, with the network printers there
  842. # [13:23] <jgraham> Hixie: I assume google has sysadmins and stuff
  843. # [13:24] <Hixie> well, if the printer comes with a sysadmin in the box that's fine too
  844. # [13:24] <fupp> jgraham: okay, thanks
  845. # [13:24] <jgraham> I guess you need to pay a lot more to get that :)
  846. # [13:25] <annevk2> might be illegal too
  847. # [13:25] <fupp> is there a way to use filters like with the DOM2 TreeWalker?
  848. # [13:26] <Lachy_> Hixie, an ethernet enabled network printer plugged into a port on a wireless router (as opposed to a USB printer plugged into an airport express) that is configured to extend your existing network would probably suit your needs
  849. # [13:27] <jgraham> fupp: There are a few filters provided, you can look at them. You don't need a specific api because you can just use a generator function
  850. # [13:27] <Hixie> Lachy_: yeah, though then i need to add yet another router to the network
  851. # [13:27] <jgraham> function filter(node): yield node is the identity filter
  852. # [13:27] <Hixie> my home network is complicated enough already that i had to draw a network map to figure it out
  853. # [13:28] <Lachy_> Hixie, that's not really much of a problem if it's just set up in bridge mode
  854. # [13:29] <Lachy_> I have 3 routers in my home network
  855. # [13:29] * Hixie wonders what the difference is between a "HP Jetdirect ew2400 External Wireless Print Server" and a "HP Wireless G USB Print Server" is
  856. # [13:30] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@p54BE8BA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  857. # [13:30] * Quits: svl_ (n=me@dslb-084-056-105-243.pools.arcor-ip.net) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  862. # [13:45] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
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  865. # [13:53] <Philip`> "External Wireless"
  866. # [13:53] <Philip`> Can you get a printer that's internally wireless too?
  867. # [13:54] * Joins: mcdave (n=mcdave@cm-83-97-164-135.telecable.es)
  868. # [13:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: Correct solution: don't print.
  869. # [13:54] <Philip`> You could get rid of the circuit boards and just have every chip communicate via wifi
  870. # [13:55] <Lachy> Philip`, that depends what is meant by "External Wireless", and what you mean by "internally wireless"
  871. # [13:55] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah that's my choice too
  872. # [13:55] <Lachy> if you mean, containing no wires, rather than having an internal wifi connection, then no
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  875. # [14:00] <Hixie> can an airport express be used as a bridge to connect an _ethernet_ printer to the network?
  876. # [14:00] <Hixie> as opposed to usb?
  877. # [14:00] <Hixie> or is the ethernet port on the express only for uplink to the internet
  878. # [14:01] <Hixie> i'm thinking an HP Color LaserJet CP3525dn is probably my best choice, with a router to get it on the network.
  879. # [14:01] * jgraham wonders why Hixie wants a fancy apple thing rather than a common or garden router
  880. # [14:01] <Hixie> well if it works, it's a whole heck of a lot easier to maintain than other routers
  881. # [14:02] <annevk2> Hixie, you should ask your employer, it pointed me to http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=92055
  882. # [14:02] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  884. # [14:02] <Hixie> my experience with forums is that you guys are more reliable :-P
  885. # [14:03] <annevk2> we do sometimes get people join this channel with highly off-topic questions of things discussed in the past :)
  886. # [14:03] <Philip`> http://web3d.org/pipermail/x3d-public_web3d.org/2009-September/000341.html ("X3D - HTML 5 minutes Sept. 01, 2009")
  887. # [14:04] * Philip` isn't sure what those people actually want to do
  888. # [14:05] <Hixie> i guess i'll plug my laptop into my existing airport express and see if that works
  889. # [14:05] <Binarytales> what about ethernet over powerlines. my brother uses it for his xbox and it works like a charm, the adapter are pretty inexpesive too, a lot cheaper than an airport
  890. # [14:06] <annevk2> Philip`, literally reading that it seems they want to obsolete <embed> and give X3D the same kind of support as SVG
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  893. # [14:07] <Hixie> Binarytales: dunno if that'll work for me, our power setup is ancient and not at all something i'd trust with data
  894. # [14:07] <Philip`> annevk2: As far as I'm aware they only care about XHTML, not text/html
  895. # [14:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: should <video> use MIMESNIFF rules?
  896. # [14:08] <Binarytales> we have it working on wiring that was done the 60's and its stable enough for xbox live
  897. # [14:08] <Hixie> zcorpan: not currently
  898. # [14:08] <Philip`> (or maybe they don't realise the distinction)
  899. # [14:08] <Hixie> Binarytales: ah, interesting. what products should i be looking at? maybe it's worth a try
  900. # [14:08] <Philip`> Does Ethernet over powerlines work during powercuts?
  901. # [14:09] <Hixie> my wifi network won't work during powercuts
  902. # [14:09] <Hixie> so that point is moot
  903. # [14:09] * jgraham has heard that the reliability of ethernet over powerlines is widely variable depending on the wiring of your house and can have unexpected interference if you try to e.g. make toast
  904. # [14:10] <Philip`> You can solve that by switching to a battery-powered toaster
  905. # [14:10] <Hixie> ok well i'll look into the networking part of this tomorrow
  906. # [14:10] <Hixie> i must sleep now
  907. # [14:10] <Hixie> thanks for the help
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  909. # [14:15] <jgraham> Does WebIDL have anything to say about what should happen if I do something like __lookupGetter__ or __defineSetter__ on a DOM object?
  910. # [14:15] <jgraham> heycam: ^
  911. # [14:16] * jgraham is hoping someone more familiar than him with WebIDL will know since the spec is quite dense and it is possible he has missed something
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  915. # [14:28] <hsivonen> why are the X3D folks keen on getting rid of <embed>?
  916. # [14:28] <heycam> jgraham, no it doesn't
  917. # [14:28] <heycam> i should probably get around to making webidl relevant for ES5 kinda things like that
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  919. # [14:31] * heycam heads to bed
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  921. # [14:31] <Philip`> hsivonen: Probably because of the reasons in the bottom of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1220.html
  922. # [14:32] <hsivonen> I don't see why it would be productive to ask Flash embedding snippet generators to change
  923. # [14:32] <hsivonen> but then, I don't see why it's productive to ask Java applet embedding snippet generators to change, either
  924. # [14:34] * Joins: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  925. # [14:34] <Philip`> (My assumption that those are the relevant reasons is because they come from an X3D person, rather than because they're necessarily good reasons)
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  927. # [14:36] <Lachy> Is <object> even capable of doing everything needed to embed an applet, that <applet> can do?
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  929. # [14:37] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm not sure, but HTML5-compatible <object> for Java has near-non-existent documentation while <applet> has plenty
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  931. # [14:37] <hsivonen> http://webtrendmap.com/craigmod/161/ is such a pain to debug
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  935. # [14:51] <hsivonen> so far I've figured that the jquery crasher is due to OnLocationChange running differently
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  937. # [14:51] * annevk3 wonders why Sam is playing games regarding <keygen>
  938. # [14:51] <Creap> How does 'required' work on checkboxes?
  939. # [14:53] <Creap> Is it required to be changed, or to be checked
  940. # [14:53] <Creap> oh, nevermind, I missed a note
  941. # [14:53] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.59)
  942. # [14:53] <Creap> "If the element is required and its checkedness is false, then the element is suffering from being missing."
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  944. # [14:55] <Lachy> hsivonen, yeah, I know I argued to have <applet> added to HTML5 as conforming once. I can't remember the reason Hixie rejected it
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  947. # [14:58] <Lachy> we should make keygen non-conforming, and just keep the implementation requirements in the spec for now
  948. # [14:59] * Philip` guesses making <keygen> optional would make Microsoft happy, since then they wouldn't have to intentionally violate the spec, and it would still be documented for everyone else who wants to bother implementing it
  949. # [14:59] <Lachy> given that it's a really badly designed feature, we should do as much as possible to discourage its use, rather than encourage it by making it conforming
  950. # [15:00] <Lachy> Philip`, I didn't say we should make it optional. Just make it a document conformance error to use it.
  951. # [15:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: the reason basically boils down to <applet> being specific to Java while <embed> isn't specific to Flash in theory
  952. # [15:01] <Lachy> hsivonen, that sounds like an argument from theoretical purity, in spite of practicality
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  956. # [15:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: ^
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  967. # [15:36] <markhuot> Wow, I have to say that HTML5 worried me with all the element confusion. But now that I've found custom data attributes I think I may be in love: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#embedding-custom-non-visible-data
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  970. # [15:41] <miketaylr> markhuot: for reals.
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  973. # [15:43] <hsivonen> markhuot: what element confusion are you referring to? <footer>?
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  976. # [15:48] <markhuot> hsivonen: yea, FOOTER and ASIDE really.
  977. # [15:48] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@130.189.179.215)
  978. # [15:49] <markhuot> Actually, I think TabAtkins was going to make a post about it the other day. Does anyone know where that would have been posted, if it was?
  979. # [15:49] <TabAtkins> Yo.
  980. # [15:49] <TabAtkins> I sent it in the thread I'm currently responding to, I think.
  981. # [15:49] * TabAtkins scans...
  982. # [15:50] <TabAtkins> "Implementor feedback on new elements in HTML5". 16 hours ago.
  983. # [15:51] <markhuot> Hey there TabAtkins. Ah, thanks. I've been reading the archives up until now, I guess I should bite the bullet and subscribe though so I'm not a few days behind all the time.
  984. # [15:51] <Philip`> You could just increase your polling frequency on the archives
  985. # [15:51] <TabAtkins> 250ms should be sufficient.
  986. # [15:52] <markhuot> :) Now that sounds like just the ticket.
  987. # [15:52] <Philip`> Opera is good for that since you can bind the archives to a speed-dial button, and whenever you're bored or distracted (i.e. every five minutes, at least when I did this) you can compulsively hit the key to view the archives for any nice blue unread links
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  989. # [15:54] <gsnedders> (So be careful)
  990. # [15:55] <TabAtkins> Since Hixie explained it, though, I'm cool with <aside>. I'm proposing an amendment to the spec text for it right now for the list. <footer> is still no good as written.
  991. # [15:55] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  992. # [15:55] <markhuot> Ah, I'm going back and reading Hixie's explanation of ASIDE now.
  993. # [15:56] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the generalization of "tangential to content" to "tangential to page" was not one I was comfortable making as an informed author.
  994. # [15:56] <TabAtkins> Which is ironic, since it's precisely the reasoning I used at first when I tried to use <aside> as a sidebar.
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  997. # [15:59] * gsnedders sighs at h2g2
  998. # [15:59] <markhuot> It can be confusing though. However, reading through Hixie's explanation seems to clear things up a bit…
  999. # [16:00] <miketaylr> markhuot: can you post a link to that? i'd like to read it as well
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  1001. # [16:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: The book, or the web site?
  1002. # [16:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: The web site
  1003. # [16:03] <Lachy> TabAtkins, you should just give in and use aside for a sidebar as it was initially designed
  1004. # [16:04] <TabAtkins> Lachy: I have. ^_^ Which is why I'm now proposing an amendment to the spec text, to make that clear again.
  1005. # [16:04] <gsnedders> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A184060
  1006. # [16:04] <Lachy> TabAtkins, have you sent the proposal, or still writing it?
  1007. # [16:05] <TabAtkins> Writing it now.
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  1009. # [16:05] <Philip`> h2g2 is like a cross between Wikipedia and Uncyclopedia
  1010. # [16:07] <TabAtkins> It reminds me of everything2 (IIRC the name).
  1011. # [16:07] <gsnedders> "Possibly the best place to meet someone [for a first date] is a record shop - you can always browse the shelves while you're waiting, and if you get stood up you can at least pick up a few bargains in the process."
  1012. # [16:08] <Lachy> how does anyone get h2g2 as an abbreviation for "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? - http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/dontpanic-tour
  1013. # [16:08] <TabAtkins> HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy
  1014. # [16:08] <TabAtkins> Clearly inferior as an abbreviation, but shrug.
  1015. # [16:08] <gsnedders> (note the two words beginning to t, too)
  1016. # [16:08] <Lachy> oh. That's the most obscure abbreviation ever
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  1018. # [16:08] <Lachy> and Hitchhiker's is written as one word
  1019. # [16:08] <TabAtkins> Yeah, took me forever to realize what it meant when the movie was coming out.
  1020. # [16:09] <Lachy> I don't remember that abbr being used for the movie
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  1028. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> Hrm. I doubt it's possible for a Location-header redirect to take advantage of the <base> url...
  1029. # [16:24] <Lachy> With all the discussion about how temperature doesn't really have an upper bound (in the <meter> thread), someone should inform thermometer manufacturers that they're doing things wrongly by limiting their gauges between, e.g. -20 and 60˚C (for outdoor weather thermometers)
  1030. # [16:25] <TabAtkins> Already hit that. ^_^
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  1034. # [16:25] <TabAtkins> Anyway, you eventually run out of entropy - a given system *does* technically have an upper bound.
  1035. # [16:26] <TabAtkins> Albeit in high exponentials.
  1036. # [16:27] <Lachy> TabAtkins, that depends if you accept the hypothesis of their being an Absolute Hot, at the opposite end of the scale from Absolute Zero
  1037. # [16:27] <TabAtkins> No, it's a theorem based on thermodynamics.
  1038. # [16:27] <Philip`> What if you have a meter showing the temperature of the universe, updating dynamically with t moving towards 0?
  1039. # [16:27] <TabAtkins> Where temperature is correlated with entropy, and a given system has a maximum level of entropy.
  1040. # [16:28] <TabAtkins> Philip` <progress toward=heat-death>?
  1041. # [16:28] <jcranmer> I thought temperature was enthalpy, not entropy
  1042. # [16:28] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Different formulation of entropy.
  1043. # [16:28] <jcranmer> t = time or temperature, Philip` ?
  1044. # [16:28] <TabAtkins> temperature is T, not t.
  1045. # [16:28] <Philip`> t = time
  1046. # [16:28] <Lachy> I struggle with the concept of entropy already. I don't even know what enthalpy is.
  1047. # [16:28] <Philip`> (Sorry, I assumed that was obvious :-p )
  1048. # [16:28] <jcranmer> at the big bang, the temperature was.. er..
  1049. # [16:28] <Philip`> so heat-death is the wrong end of the universe
  1050. # [16:29] <TabAtkins> Buh, sorry. Missed the t->0 bit.
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  1053. # [16:32] <TabAtkins> Ah, good. Turns out I store the <base href> in the db with the site info anyway.
  1054. # [16:32] <Lachy> so at t = (0 + 1/infinity), at the instant the universe began expanding, all the energy of the universe was condenced into such a small, hot region of plasma, that would be the hottest possible temperature in this universe. Is that right?
  1055. # [16:32] <TabAtkins> Given an appropriately rigorous definition of an infinitesimal moment from the singularity, yeah.
  1056. # [16:33] <Philip`> Given the assumption that physics works at that time too
  1057. # [16:33] <TabAtkins> I think we can't reason about it if we don't assume physics still works.
  1058. # [16:33] <Philip`> (which it doesn't, as far as I'm aware)
  1059. # [16:33] <Philip`> s/physics/known models of physics/
  1060. # [16:33] <TabAtkins> *At* the singularity we lose it, but not *just afeter*.
  1061. # [16:33] <Lachy> so is that the same as the theoretical Absolute Hot? Or if some hypothetical universe began with more engergy than this one, would it be hotter?
  1062. # [16:34] <TabAtkins> Some stuff just works weird at those energy levels.
  1063. # [16:34] <TabAtkins> Lachy: under that definition, Absolute Hot is universe-specific.
  1064. # [16:34] <TabAtkins> Under the definition I was referring to before (the weird thermodynamic one) you can actually achieve Absolute Hot in the lab, and then wrap right back around to negative temperatures.
  1065. # [16:35] <TabAtkins> That is to say, you can overflow temperature itself. ^_^
  1066. # [16:35] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm using a hypothetical model of physics in which the issues of general relativity and quantum mechanics have been resolved into a unified theory of everything.
  1067. # [16:36] <Philip`> How are you defining the notion of temperature in that model?
  1068. # [16:36] <TabAtkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature
  1069. # [16:36] <TabAtkins> Like that.
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  1073. # [16:39] <Lachy> Philip`, if I knew that, my model wouldn't be hypothetical.
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  1075. # [16:40] <TabAtkins> Philip` something like energy density is probably a good idea there.
  1076. # [16:40] <Philip`> Lachy: If you don't know what temperature is, it's hard to work out whether there's a maximum value for it
  1077. # [16:40] * TabAtkins notes that this becomes confused with the gauge changes, though...
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  1094. # [17:12] <TabAtkins> All right, just sent proposal for <aside>. After thinking about it, I don't think the text itself really needs to change, so I suggested an additional example that makes it clear that website sidebars are appropriate uses of the element.
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  1106. # [17:29] <cardona507> forgive me if this is phrased wrong- are touch gestures supported in html 5?
  1107. # [17:29] <cardona507> multi-touch
  1108. # [17:31] <inimino> cardona507: that would be more a feature of browsers, not of HTML
  1109. # [17:31] <cardona507> wouldn't the spec be the place to clearly define it so that the browsers implement it uniformly - or is that wishful thinking?
  1110. # [17:31] <markhuot> inimino: not necessarily, there would probably need to be events for "pinch" (as an example)
  1111. # [17:34] <Philip`> Sounds like more of a Web Apps WG thing
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  1126. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> Breadcrumbs: <nav> or not?
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  1128. # [18:05] <beowulf> <pwd>...</pwd>
  1129. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> Ah, of course.
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  1148. # [18:32] <markhuot> beowulf, was that serious? I don't see any reference to a PWD element…
  1149. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Nah, that was a joke. ^_^
  1150. # [18:33] <markhuot> :) Darn, it made so much sense though ;-)
  1151. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> pwd on a linux box lists the current path
  1152. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> Hehe.
  1153. # [18:33] <markhuot> Yup, yup. It made perfect sense to me. I'd love a PWD just for bread crumbs and the like.
  1154. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> Really, though, breadcrumbs are just a nav. But are they primary enough to be <nav> is the question.
  1155. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> I'm gonna lean toward yes.
  1156. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> Because otherwise I'm splitting hairs way too finely for my taste.
  1157. # [18:35] <markhuot> Hum, I'd lead towards no, only because I wouldn't want duplicate NAV items point to the About page (for example).
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  1159. # [18:35] <markhuot> But that's a personal preference thing I think. Not the fault of the spec's definition of NAV.
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  1161. # [18:38] <markhuot> Philip`, to go way way back to what you said about the Web Apps WG, I was simply saying that if the spec includes references to `onclick` then it may need a reference to `pinch` or `tofingertap`, etc…
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  1163. # [18:42] <Binarytales> surely pinch could be discovered by polling for a change in the size of something (as it's pretty much always used to scale) and fingertaps or covered by onclick and onmousedown?
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  1165. # [18:50] <markhuot> Hum, but how would you know if someone pressed with one finger or two on a link or button with onclick?
  1166. # [18:50] <markhuot> Pinch, could be discovered with polling, but then couldn't `keyup` as well? I'd say as a measure of convenience `onpinch` would be as helpful as `onkeyup`
  1167. # [18:52] <Binarytales> I see what your saying
  1168. # [18:59] <Binarytales> it would be cool if onpinch were to return deltas for the amount of pinch or pehaps an array of onmousedown events of something (I've not done a lot of javascript stuff so that might not make sense)
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  1198. # [20:32] <rubys> tantek: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/09/02/Polyglot-Validation
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  1204. # [20:57] <tantek> hi rubys - reading now
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  1207. # [21:03] <rubys> hi tantek, let me know what you think
  1208. # [21:04] <TabAtkins> tantek: got the <cvs> example working in ie, but I"m gonna have to scrap the implementation in any case to account for separator characters appearing in quoted fields. I'll move to a character-by-character parser instead.
  1209. # [21:04] <tantek> rubys - more details also added to the sf guide: http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#validation
  1210. # [21:04] <tantek> TabAtkins, your implementation is still an excellent "proof of concept"
  1211. # [21:05] <tantek> for now, it's worth publishing and explicitly noting the limitations (e.g. characters appearing in quoted fields)
  1212. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it works perfectly as I want it now if you can trust the separator character perfectly.
  1213. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> I got it to move all of the <cvs> attributes to the generated <table> too.
  1214. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> I need someone to help me translate it from jQuery to DOM, though.
  1215. # [21:06] <tantek> rubys - I disagree that XHTML 1.0 named entities shouldn't be allowed.
  1216. # [21:06] <rubys> tantek, yes that "more" details, but I have experience with developing a validator... and that's why I'm insisting on concrete test cases.
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  1218. # [21:06] <tantek> requesting test cases is reasonable
  1219. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> In fact, someone (possibly me) needs to make a tutorial - "Turning your jQuery into normal javascript".
  1220. # [21:07] <tantek> heh - indeed
  1221. # [21:07] <tantek> again, for a proof of concept, jQuery is fine
  1222. # [21:07] <tantek> which is all we need for a spec proposal per se
  1223. # [21:07] <tantek> it shows implementability, utility, etc.
  1224. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  1225. # [21:07] <rubys> tantek: cool. Produce a few this week, and I will try to see if I can implement some of them next week, and get Mike to deploy the results publicly for you and everybody else to bang on.
  1226. # [21:08] * TabAtkins will be back in a few, needs to hit up Sonic before returning to work.
  1227. # [21:09] <tantek> rubys - I'll try to add to the "etc." and answer Henri's questions first - then the next logical step would be to produce a test case for each bullet point in http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#validation
  1228. # [21:10] <gsnedders> If we want to do that, do we want to check if the page is valid XHTML as well as HTML?
  1229. # [21:10] <tantek> (and perhaps even link to the test cases from the bullet points)
  1230. # [21:10] <gsnedders> Do we want to check whether it parses to the same tree in both XHTML in HTML?
  1231. # [21:10] <gsnedders> *as
  1232. # [21:10] <gsnedders> *and
  1233. # [21:10] <tantek> gsnedders - that's a reasonable add
  1234. # [21:10] <rubys> gsnedders: see the comments on my blog post. There may be differences that don't matter.
  1235. # [21:11] <tantek> since tree differences would result in DOM differences, and may result in CSS styling differences, since CSS rules apply to the tree
  1236. # [21:11] <rubys> Henri's point about <pre> followed by new-line is a valid one.
  1237. # [21:11] <tantek> rubys - so far, for each difference, I've been able to find a case where it could cause an unintended runtime error
  1238. # [21:11] <Philip`> (<textarea> too)
  1239. # [21:11] <gsnedders> I guess it means making all entities apart from the four XML ones errors, as they aren't allowed in XHTML
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  1241. # [21:11] <gsnedders> and <listings>
  1242. # [21:11] <gsnedders> or listing
  1243. # [21:11] <gsnedders> or whatever it is
  1244. # [21:11] <tantek> gsnedders - no - XHTML 1.0 includes named entities
  1245. # [21:11] <gsnedders> :P
  1246. # [21:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: Nobody cares about obsolete elements :-p
  1247. # [21:11] <tantek> therefore so should XHTML syntax
  1248. # [21:12] <gsnedders> tantek: Aren't we checking HTML 5 and XHTML 5, though?
  1249. # [21:12] <gsnedders> tantek: Or are we doing HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0, which makes things like <img> impossible to use
  1250. # [21:12] <tantek> gsnedders, there is no such thing as "HTML 5", there is only HTML5. there is no such things as "XHTML 5" there is only "XHTML syntax of HTML5".
  1251. # [21:12] <tantek> gsnedders - read: http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#validation
  1252. # [21:13] <gsnedders> tantek: I have.
  1253. # [21:13] <tantek> that answers your question
  1254. # [21:13] <gsnedders> It doesn't.
  1255. # [21:13] <tantek> read it again
  1256. # [21:13] <Philip`> If you want the same tree in HTML and XHTML, you couldn't even write "<ul><li>item 1</li> <li>item 2</li><ul>"
  1257. # [21:13] <Philip`> Wait, I'm probably being stupid
  1258. # [21:14] <Philip`> That's just in IE, not HTML5, I think
  1259. # [21:14] <Philip`> Please ignore me
  1260. # [21:14] <tantek> it's ok Philip`, this is IRC, we all expect to say things before we've fully thought them through :)
  1261. # [21:15] <Philip`> Am I still being stupid if I think you can't even write "<!DOCTYPE html><html>...all the normal body stuff...</html> " ?
  1262. # [21:15] <gsnedders> tantek: My understanding of that is we want to check that a document is both valid HTML and the corresponding version of XHTML, which if we want to check parse trees are the same is rather useless for HTML 4.01 as <img /> is parsed differently.
  1263. # [21:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: You could, why couldn't you?
  1264. # [21:16] <tantek> gsnedders - false. they are allowed in XHTML 1.0.
  1265. # [21:16] <tantek> and in practice, no, <img /> is not parsed differently
  1266. # [21:16] <gsnedders> tantek: How is that false? Parsed per HTML 4.01 you get an img element followed by ">", and XHTML you get a single img element.
  1267. # [21:16] <gsnedders> tantek: Sure, but we're checking against the spec, and if we're dealing with HTML 4.01, then that is true.
  1268. # [21:17] <tantek> gsnedders - your HTML 4.01 spec literalism is a waste of time.
  1269. # [21:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: Because in HTML5 the whitespace goes inside the body, in XHTML it doesn't, so the trees are different
  1270. # [21:17] <gsnedders> tantek: Then educate people to not use HTML 4.01 if they want their XML-isms
  1271. # [21:18] <tantek> gsnedders - like I said - reread http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#validation to understand the purpose
  1272. # [21:18] <gsnedders> tantek: I have. I am asking questions to try and understand the purpose.
  1273. # [21:19] <gsnedders> If you want to check coding standards exactly per XHTML, these are all valid questions
  1274. # [21:19] <tantek> no - the HTML4.01 shorttag net crap questions is just a waste of time - you're asking theoretical questions that have zero impact in practice - therefore you are wasting time.
  1275. # [21:20] <gsnedders> So why don't we just validate against what creates an identical parse tree in all browsers, and ignore all specs?
  1276. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Making <u> throw an error is theoretical and has zero impact in practice.
  1277. # [21:21] <tantek> gsnedders - reductio ad absurdum arguments are not useful either.
  1278. # [21:21] <tantek> ("ignore all specs")
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  1280. # [21:22] * Philip` presumes the aim is to find the underlying principles behind the specific suggestions, so that it's possible to tell what other suggestions would fit in
  1281. # [21:22] <gsnedders> So we should be validating against the parts of HTML 4.01 that are relevant in the real world?
  1282. # [21:22] <tantek> gsnedders - next homework assignment: read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
  1283. # [21:23] <tantek> gsnedders, no, you should be ignoring any nitpicky details of HTML4.01 which have never been implemented in practice.
  1284. # [21:23] <hober> I didn't even think we were talking about validating HTML 4.01 at all, but instead validating documents which purport to be simultaneously XHTML5 and HTML5
  1285. # [21:24] <tantek> and in fact have been *interoperably* implemented in other ways
  1286. # [21:28] <fupp> how do I parse a webpage with iso-8859-1 encoding with html5lib? I tried the stuff in the docs but it doesn't work
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  1289. # [21:32] <tantek> rubys - really appreciate your volunteering to help with the validation stuff
  1290. # [21:33] <rubys> and if you scroll back, you can see why I'm limiting myself to vetted test cases :-)
  1291. # [21:34] <rubys> I don't want to get sucked into those arguments.
  1292. # [21:39] <gsnedders> hober: But the "Super Friends" document explicitly refers to XHTML 1.0
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  1294. # [21:40] <gsnedders> tantek: Also, FWIW, according to HTML 5 section 1.7, there is both HTML5 and XHTML5.
  1295. # [21:41] <hober> I think you're misreading that paragraph (of the sf document), gsnedders
  1296. # [21:41] <hober> they're not saying "We want to validate a document as simultaneously both HTML5 and XHTML 1.0"
  1297. # [21:42] <gsnedders> Then I wish someone would tell me _how_ I'm meant to be reading that document instead of just telling me to read it again.
  1298. # [21:42] <hober> they're saying "in the past, we could validate documents-served-as-text/html as XHTML 1.0; in the future, we'd like to be able to validate documents-served-as-text/html as XHTML5"
  1299. # [21:42] <hober> tantek: please correct me if my interpretation is wrong
  1300. # [21:42] <gsnedders> But you can already do that, just change the parser to XML.
  1301. # [21:43] <hober> gsnedders: indeed.
  1302. # [21:43] <gsnedders> Which is why are far as I can tell it's about checking a document is both valid HTML and XHTML
  1303. # [21:43] <gsnedders> But apparently we're meant to ignore certain parts of the spec we're validating against
  1304. # [21:45] <gsnedders> I just want to know quite what this dual-mode validation is meant to be.
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  1308. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> Man, I need a corpus of representative CSVs. How are quote characters typically quoted within a quoted field? Are the doubled? Slashed? ?_?
  1309. # [21:48] <gsnedders> It varies by producer massively
  1310. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> That's what I thought. Damn legacy formats.
  1311. # [21:48] <gsnedders> And most variations are incompatible with each other :P
  1312. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> ;_;
  1313. # [21:49] <hober> TabAtkins: there's an RFC
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  1315. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> hober: Any idea if the RFC corresponds to reality, though?
  1316. # [21:49] <hober> RFC 4180
  1317. # [21:50] <hober> it does IIRC
  1318. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that describes the doubling-behavior that I think is pretty common. But I'm not sure if \ing them is prevalent enough to make me care about it too.
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  1321. # [21:56] <tantek> TabAtkins - see http://www.data.gov/ for a ton of CSVs :)
  1322. # [21:57] <Philip`> Probably not a good way to see a wide range of formats
  1323. # [21:58] <tantek> Philip` - you might be surprised. different government agencies do their own thing.
  1324. # [21:58] <tantek> TabAtkins - also: http://datasf.org/
  1325. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> All right, cool.
  1326. # [22:00] <tantek> also, you might find this useful: http://www.creativyst.com/Doc/Articles/CSV/CSV01.htm
  1327. # [22:01] <tantek> which was linked from this CSV file editor tool: http://csved.sjfrancke.nl/index.html
  1328. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the ability of fields to contain linebreaks is another reason why I need to move to a full parser, rather than a simple regexp-based implementation.
  1329. # [22:02] <tantek> which itself was linked from a page of "open science resources" - CSV may be the most used format in open science
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  1333. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Yeah, my wife's a biologist by degree, and has done intern work in labs. CSVs are *everywhere*.
  1334. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/etc/csv.html contains the current working version. As long as you don't mess around with quotes or anything, it works like a charm in every browser I've tried.
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  1336. # [22:04] <tantek> TabAtkins - I find it kind of awesome that someone with the first name "Tab" is implementing <csv> element support - just saying :)
  1337. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> And I recommend always enclosing <csv> in <pre>, just like you do with <code> - it prevents CSS accidents (or non-CSS UAs) from making the table unintelligible, and the js parser won't even *work* in IE without whitespace protection.
  1338. # [22:05] * TabAtkins sighs. ^^;
  1339. # [22:05] <tantek> yes - authoring recommenations - good point
  1340. # [22:06] <hober> hmm. you could make your code work with <pre><code class="csv">...</code></pre> as well
  1341. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Well, that's blessing a class, which works individually, but not if you're trying to provide a migration path to native support.
  1342. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> <pre><code csv>...</code></pre> is a possibility, but I dunno if that's a good semantic.
  1343. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Plus, right now I've got two attributes on <csv>, and they wouldn't really make sense on <code>.
  1344. # [22:09] <hober> I'm not suggesting that the spec bless a class; I'm suggesting that your hack could use that for people deploying to exisitng UAs/versions of HTML
  1345. # [22:09] <tantek> csv is data not code
  1346. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but <csv> works fine in existing UAs.
  1347. # [22:09] <tantek> I would call that semantic abuse
  1348. # [22:09] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  1349. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Especially if wrapped in <pre>.
  1350. # [22:09] <tantek> (using <code> for csv that is)
  1351. # [22:10] <tantek> TabAtkins - agree
  1352. # [22:10] <tantek> agreed
  1353. # [22:10] <hober> it works in IE without a document.createElement() hack?
  1354. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> Yes. And if you're using the js-based csv-to-table shim that I'm developing, you automatically have the ability to include document.createElement('csv').
  1355. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> Without the hack (and without the js upward-compat), you just have the CSV data being displayed a preformatted plain text.
  1356. # [22:11] <hober> re: <code> semantics, agreed; so put the class="" on <pre> :)
  1357. # [22:12] <hober> *nod* a very sensible fallback
  1358. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it works well. Yay <pre>!
  1359. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> And yeah, you'll probably put class="csv" on your <pre> anyway, just like you currently do <pre .code><code>...
  1360. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> Gives you a good styling hook.
  1361. # [22:14] <tantek> also, here is source of *science* CSV files
  1362. # [22:14] <tantek> http://www.google.com/search?q=science+filetype%3Acsv
  1363. # [22:14] <tantek> :D
  1364. # [22:14] <hober> heh
  1365. # [22:19] * Joins: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no)
  1366. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> Hmm, looks like I only need one-character look-ahead to implement this.
  1367. # [22:24] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  1368. # [22:28] * Joins: Binarytales (n=Binaryta@host81-157-254-162.range81-157.btcentralplus.com)
  1369. # [22:31] <tantek> rubys,hsivonen - why the attitude about "how hard it really is" and "isn't really worth it"? Do programmers try to convince each other that fixing code to pass various lint tools "aren't worth it"? Or that running PHP on dev sandboxes with maximum level of warnings and treat warnings as errors is "not worth it"?
  1370. # [22:33] <rubys> tantek: I don't think we will have any problems.
  1371. # [22:33] <rubys> tantek: we can start with quoted attributes and matched tags.
  1372. # [22:33] <rubys> tantek: we can add more and more as you see fit.
  1373. # [22:34] <tantek> rubys - writing more and more up as we speak.
  1374. # [22:34] <rubys> it may turn out that there are errors that are hard to detect and nobody cares about... that's fine with me.
  1375. # [22:34] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-64-39.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  1376. # [22:34] <tantek> rubys - agreed.
  1377. # [22:35] <tantek> every additional type of error detected by a validator is a net win.
  1378. # [22:35] <tantek> regardless of whether we reach some theoretical 100% or something
  1379. # [22:35] <rubys> +1
  1380. # [22:35] <tantek> hence why I'm dismissive of theoretical questions/requests like the SHORTTAG NET crap.
  1381. # [22:35] <rubys> hence why I don't even participate in such discussions.
  1382. # [22:36] <tantek> understandable. I suppose I still believe folks *want* to be practically productive, and thus offering an explanation as to why such discussions are not productive seems reasonable.
  1383. # [22:37] <rubys> remember: my blog is 100% valid XHTML5 and 100% valid HTML5. (with one minor exception at the moment, to make a point about SVG)
  1384. # [22:37] <tantek> rubys you mean it's both valid XHTML syntax and HTML syntax of HTML5? ;)
  1385. # [22:37] * tantek dislikes the term XHTML5 - it is misleading.
  1386. # [22:37] <rubys> sure, whatever the PC way to say that these days is.
  1387. # [22:38] <tantek> rubys, not trying to be PC, just *precise* in order to reduce confusion.
  1388. # [22:38] <rubys> I doubt "HTML syntax of HTML5" will catch on.
  1389. # [22:39] <tantek> rubys, sure, I think by default that's what people will mean by "HTML5"
  1390. # [22:39] <tantek> and hence will only need to make that distinction when also talking about the "XHTML syntax"
  1391. # [22:39] <Dashiva> Considering HTML5 closes the XHTML-as-text/html hole, if anything there will be even less XHTML going forward
  1392. # [22:39] <rubys> so it will end up in a situation where "guy" can be gender neutral or male.
  1393. # [22:40] <tantek> rubys - more like "they" can mean a singular non-gender reference
  1394. # [22:40] <tantek> non-gender-specific
  1395. # [22:40] <tantek> Dashiva there will be less application/xhtml+xml sure but that mimetype was already dying.
  1396. # [22:40] <rubys> no, people will say HTML5, and mean it to mean a specific syntax or both syntaxes. And when it means one (the normal case) it will mean a specific one.
  1397. # [22:41] <rubys> kinda like "guy"
  1398. # [22:41] <Dashiva> tantek: I meant that fewer people will be saying they make XHTML.
  1399. # [22:42] <tantek> Dashiva - sure, there will be less marketing of XHTML
  1400. # [22:42] <rubys> Dashiva: officially URLs no longer exist, per the specs, but the term lives on (and even is getting resurrected in HTML5)
  1401. # [22:42] * tantek doesn't understand the URL kerfluffle.
  1402. # [22:43] <Dashiva> rubys: Indeed, but their doctype won't say xhtml anymore. The label is fading. :)
  1403. # [22:44] <rubys> the label will outlive the doctype
  1404. # [22:46] <Binarytales> Dashiva - you don't even need to doctype when using the xhtml syntax
  1405. # [22:46] <Dashiva> Binarytales: We're talking about XHTML as text/html
  1406. # [22:46] <Binarytales> oh right, sorry
  1407. # [22:47] <rubys> Dashiva: correction: you are.
  1408. # [22:47] <Dashiva> But yes, that's also kind of amusing. A document is more likely to say "I'm XHTML" at the top if it isn't.
  1409. # [22:48] <rubys> A document is also likely to say "strict" at the top but not be.
  1410. # [22:50] * tantek gets the big red comment posting warning box on intertwingly.net.
  1411. # [22:50] <rubys> ignore it
  1412. # [22:51] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  1413. # [22:51] <rubys> it is just there to scare away the spammers
  1414. # [22:51] * tantek goes ahead and submits comment anyway and identifies self via OpenID - sweet.
  1415. # [22:52] <rubys> I have no moderation, just big scary signs.
  1416. # [22:53] <rubys> tantek: if you post again tomorrow (on any post) or within 90 days, you shouldn't see any scary signs.
  1417. # [22:54] <rubys> I've got a list of "known" commenters (both by IP and URI) that updates a few times a day.
  1418. # [23:06] * Quits: benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-idsnboazqzegqtxp) ("Sleep")
  1419. # [23:06] <KevinMarks> a lot of data.goc CSV's are actually sensibly tab-separated
  1420. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> I'm already supporting tab-separated stuff fine.
  1421. # [23:10] <dpranke> TabAtkins: what "rendering" section are you referring to? Someplace other than 4.10.10?
  1422. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> dpranke: 11.4.15
  1423. # [23:12] <dpranke> TabAtkins: ah. thanks!
  1424. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> no proble!
  1425. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> ... s/proble/problem/
  1426. # [23:12] * Joins: benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-lvxyqlfjnmtlksfe)
  1427. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Since when did Opera support typing "/." in the address bar to get to /.?
  1428. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> Haha, awesome.
  1429. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> 10b2, at least. ^_^
  1430. # [23:17] <tantek> they might as well add support for typing "@username" to navigate to http://twitter.com/username
  1431. # [23:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's done that since forever
  1432. # [23:22] <Philip`> or at least since 9.0
  1433. # [23:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, I know it predates 9.5 :P
  1434. # [23:23] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  1435. # [23:28] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  1436. # [23:30] * Joins: cfq (n=cfq@client-82-3-40-39.sqy-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net)
  1437. # [23:32] * Quits: cfq (n=cfq@client-82-3-40-39.sqy-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  1438. # [23:33] * Joins: cfq (n=cfq@client-82-3-40-39.sqy-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net)
  1439. # [23:33] <tantek> rubys, hsivonen - I've followed up on your comment re: validation - hope this helps: http://www.zeldman.com/2009/08/31/loving-html5/#comment-48070
  1440. # [23:36] <rubys> tantek: you've switched positions on XHTML 1.0 entitites?
  1441. # [23:36] * Quits: cfq (n=cfq@client-82-3-40-39.sqy-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  1442. # [23:36] <tantek> rubys - not switched, moved
  1443. # [23:37] <rubys> cool. Note that jacques distler has nominated two tests: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/09/02/Polyglot-Validation#c1251926776
  1444. # [23:38] <tantek> rubys, part of the use case of XHTML for me has always been enabling XML tool chain uses - see: http://tantek.com/log/2003/01.html#L20030114t1345
  1445. # [23:39] * tantek feels a bit old citing 6+ year old blog posts.
  1446. # [23:39] <rubys> that's one that zeldman may disagree with, but I'll leave that up to you two. To me, it simply is an if-check.
  1447. # [23:40] <tantek> rubys - hence why I said non-XML XHTML 1.0 named entities should be a *warning*, not an error
  1448. # [23:40] <rubys> [my blog and my planet either use numeric entity references or pure utf-8]
  1449. # [23:41] <rubys> initially, these will all be warnings... we can make fine grained distinctions later.
  1450. # [23:41] <tantek> As my intuition says that Zeldman and other web designers will want to continue using named entities and still "validate"
  1451. # [23:41] <tantek> rubys - the ones that will more likely cause runtime errors I'm advocating as "errors" if the "check XHTML syntax" checkbox is checked.
  1452. # [23:41] <tantek> e.g. missing tbody would be an error
  1453. # [23:42] <rubys> I think that eventually there won't be a single XHTML profile, but a series of ones... suitable for education (named entities OK) and suitable for enterprises (only 5 named entities and the numeric set)
  1454. # [23:42] <tantek> I believe warning on the XHTML 1.0 named entities accomplishes that.
  1455. # [23:43] <rubys> Suggestion for a useful test case: one that would be treated as iso-8859-1 when parsed as HTML and utf-8 when parsed as xhtml.
  1456. # [23:43] <tantek> I'm hoping that HTML5 obeys the meta charset
  1457. # [23:44] <rubys> HTML5 served as text/html does
  1458. # [23:44] <rubys> HTML5 when parsed by an XML parser does not
  1459. # [23:44] <tantek> heck I'd even be ok with a warning for any document that uses iso-8859-1
  1460. # [23:44] <rubys> that's basically my thinking
  1461. # [23:44] <tantek> and have the warning say use UTF8 instead
  1462. # [23:44] <tantek> srsly
  1463. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> Woo, I'll become a regular user of Opera soon, now that the Wii Internet Channel is free.
  1464. # [23:44] <rubys> agreed
  1465. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> That explains the menacing glow yesterday.
  1466. # [23:46] * Joins: benward_ (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-kdqdrwtrbwngullp)
  1467. # [23:46] <tantek> rubys - btw your blog posts cites "Jeffrey Zeldman" at the start - note that the "guide" was a collaboratively written document - a more accurate cite would be "The HTML5 Super Friends" (as signed at the bottom of the "guide" http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/
  1468. # [23:47] <tantek> Jeffrey is hosting it at zeldman.com, not saying he wrote it, though of course he contributed to it heavily.
  1469. # [23:47] <rubys> that term incites riots in certain sectors
  1470. # [23:47] <tantek> usually the rioters stop when they become transfixed by the unicorn.
  1471. # [23:48] <tantek> besides, the threat of rioting hasn't stopped you from being precise in the past ;)
  1472. # [23:52] <rubys> ah, what the heck. Fixed.
  1473. # [23:52] * Joins: svl_ (n=me@dslb-084-056-117-163.pools.arcor-ip.net)
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  1476. # [23:54] * Quits: benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-lvxyqlfjnmtlksfe) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  1477. # [23:56] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181)
  1478. # [23:57] <othermaciej> hi all
  1479. # [23:57] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@p54BEBAE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  1480. # [23:57] <othermaciej> tantek: do you know if more of the Superfriends are planning to join the HTML WG?
  1481. # [23:58] <tantek> I have encouraged and am encouraging all of them to do so. Some already have.
  1482. # [23:58] <Hixie> i just block-moved all the public-html and whatwg feedback today into my pile to deal with -- was there anything important i should have seen?
  1483. # [23:59] <othermaciej> tantek: do you know if anyone is going to send the collected feedback in direct email form? I think that would be helpful (even though there is already some discussion)
  1484. # [23:59] <tantek> othermaciej - yes, Hixie requested that the feedback be given in email form yesterday on IRC as well.
  1485. # Session Close: Thu Sep 03 00:00:00 2009

The end :)