/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-10 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 10 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: da3d (n=opera@h11n1fls34o986.telia.com)
  4. # [00:01] * Parts: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-65-138.dynamic.amis.net)
  5. # [00:02] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.16.129) (Remote closed the connection)
  6. # [00:02] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-lcbizninyvrefkfr)
  7. # [00:09] * Joins: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108)
  8. # [00:09] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-56-211.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  9. # [00:09] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@91.84.42.85)
  10. # [00:20] * Joins: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  11. # [00:23] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-fewuhrcdnhqgvakv)
  12. # [00:25] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  13. # [00:27] * Quits: tantekc (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  14. # [00:27] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  15. # [00:32] * Quits: Unixmonkey (n=Unixmonk@mail.reprographix.com)
  16. # [00:36] * Quits: jonpierce (n=jonpierc@c-98-216-49-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  17. # [00:51] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  18. # [00:59] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  19. # [01:00] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  20. # [01:03] * Quits: hobertoAtWork (n=hobertoa@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com) ("Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de")
  21. # [01:07] <jwalden> syp__: does IE8 not support textContent?
  22. # [01:07] * Joins: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@66-240-25-6.isp.comcastbusiness.net)
  23. # [01:08] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.246.16.129)
  24. # [01:23] * Joins: Kalms_ (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108)
  25. # [01:23] * Quits: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  26. # [01:23] * Kalms_ is now known as Kalms
  27. # [01:24] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  28. # [01:24] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-lcbizninyvrefkfr) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  29. # [01:24] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  30. # [01:28] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@caffeine.cc.com.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  31. # [01:30] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  32. # [01:32] * Quits: annevk3 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  33. # [01:33] * Joins: boblet (n=boblet@p1254-ipbf304osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  34. # [01:33] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@caffeine.cc.com.au)
  35. # [01:34] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  36. # [01:34] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@caffeine.cc.com.au) (Client Quit)
  37. # [01:36] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  38. # [01:45] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-222.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  39. # [01:45] <Hixie> annevk2: thanks
  40. # [01:47] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-azasjflnnipumizg)
  41. # [01:54] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@67.180.202.79)
  42. # [01:54] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  43. # [01:55] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@67.180.202.79) (Client Quit)
  44. # [01:57] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@67.180.202.79)
  45. # [01:58] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  46. # [02:03] * Joins: tantekc (n=tantek@67.180.202.79)
  47. # [02:07] * Joins: ifette (n=ifette@220.109.219.244)
  48. # [02:08] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@91.84.42.85) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  49. # [02:11] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.85.213.215)
  50. # [02:15] * Quits: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108)
  51. # [02:19] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  52. # [02:19] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@67.180.202.79) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  53. # [02:20] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Client Quit)
  54. # [02:20] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.16.129) (Remote closed the connection)
  55. # [02:20] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  56. # [02:20] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-rzykejlalpqvofid)
  57. # [02:20] * Quits: benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-qtzklnlkaauvjunp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  58. # [02:26] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  59. # [02:26] * Quits: ifette_GOOG (n=ifette@220.109.219.244) (Connection timed out)
  60. # [02:27] * Quits: yutak_home (n=kee@M006079.ppp.dion.ne.jp) ("Ex-Chat")
  61. # [02:28] * Quits: tantekc (n=tantek@67.180.202.79)
  62. # [02:37] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@67.180.202.79)
  63. # [02:39] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  64. # [02:39] * Joins: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B016CD4.dip.t-dialin.net)
  65. # [02:41] * Quits: ap (n=ap@17.246.19.174)
  66. # [02:44] * Joins: ifette_GOOG (n=ifette@220.109.219.244)
  67. # [02:46] * Quits: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@66-240-25-6.isp.comcastbusiness.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  68. # [02:50] * Joins: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@66-240-25-6.isp.comcastbusiness.net)
  69. # [02:56] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B016D77.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  70. # [02:57] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  71. # [02:57] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-fewuhrcdnhqgvakv) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  72. # [02:59] * Quits: ifette (n=ifette@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  73. # [03:01] * Joins: yael (i=d0309a43@gateway/web/freenode/x-jzmafqnesnnuijdn)
  74. # [03:05] * Quits: jamesr (n=jamesr@nat/google/x-qqaixptdgorfbwux)
  75. # [03:08] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-222.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  76. # [03:11] * Quits: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B016CD4.dip.t-dialin.net) ("?Q")
  77. # [03:20] * Joins: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  78. # [03:21] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu)
  79. # [03:30] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  80. # [03:46] * Quits: yutak (n=yutak@220.109.219.244) ("Leaving")
  81. # [03:46] * Quits: SamerZ (n=SamerZ@CPE0024369ef3ab-CM001ac35cd4b4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  82. # [03:48] * Joins: lazni (n=lazni@118.71.168.35)
  83. # [03:53] * Joins: yutak (n=yutak@220.109.219.244)
  84. # [03:55] * Joins: tantekc (n=tantek@67.180.202.79)
  85. # [03:58] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@67.180.202.79) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  86. # [03:59] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  87. # [04:15] * Joins: takoratta (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  88. # [04:23] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65)
  89. # [04:30] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-rzykejlalpqvofid)
  90. # [04:33] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65)
  91. # [04:45] * Joins: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  92. # [04:55] * Joins: takorat__ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  93. # [04:57] * Quits: takoratta (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  94. # [05:00] * Quits: mcdave (n=mcdave@83.97.164.135) ("Leaving.")
  95. # [05:07] * Quits: tantekc (n=tantek@67.180.202.79)
  96. # [05:08] * Joins: takoratta (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  97. # [05:10] * Joins: takora___ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  98. # [05:10] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@67.180.35.124)
  99. # [05:14] * Quits: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  100. # [05:25] * Quits: franksalim (n=frank@adsl-75-61-85-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) ("Leaving")
  101. # [05:25] * Quits: takorat__ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  102. # [05:27] * Quits: takoratta (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  103. # [05:30] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-hrtzcgmyrrevmzoc) ("home")
  104. # [05:32] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@67.188.0.62)
  105. # [05:35] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  106. # [05:37] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@72.14.224.1)
  107. # [05:43] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1)
  108. # [05:51] * Joins: lazni1 (n=lazni@118.71.168.35)
  109. # [05:51] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@67.188.0.62) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  110. # [05:51] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  111. # [05:54] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  112. # [05:59] * Quits: dpranke (n=Adium@nat/google/x-qspkfsyppliwuhkh) ("Leaving.")
  113. # [06:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  114. # [06:03] * Joins: ifette (n=ifette@220.109.219.244)
  115. # [06:04] * Joins: takoratta (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  116. # [06:04] * Quits: takora___ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  117. # [06:07] * Joins: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  118. # [06:07] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  119. # [06:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-247-107.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  120. # [06:09] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@67.180.35.124)
  121. # [06:11] * Quits: lazni (n=lazni@118.71.168.35) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  122. # [06:20] * Quits: ifette_GOOG (n=ifette@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  123. # [06:24] * Quits: takoratta (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  124. # [06:35] * Joins: [1]mpilgrim (n=mark@nat/google/x-fpdzgnbhifmsmliy)
  125. # [06:38] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  126. # [06:38] * Quits: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@66-240-25-6.isp.comcastbusiness.net)
  127. # [06:42] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=mark@nat/google/x-vlwnexnqxlnjovub) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  128. # [06:42] * [1]mpilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
  129. # [06:46] * Joins: [1]mpilgrim (n=mark@nat/google/x-rhdopjvojzqkreqh)
  130. # [06:47] * Quits: lazni1 (n=lazni@118.71.168.35) ("Leaving.")
  131. # [06:47] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@12.33.239.250)
  132. # [06:53] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  133. # [06:53] * Joins: lazni (n=lazni@118.71.168.35)
  134. # [06:54] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  135. # [06:56] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@72.14.224.1)
  136. # [06:57] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  137. # [06:57] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  138. # [06:59] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  139. # [07:00] * Quits: fishd_ (n=darin@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  140. # [07:00] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  141. # [07:03] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  142. # [07:04] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=mark@nat/google/x-fpdzgnbhifmsmliy) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  143. # [07:04] * [1]mpilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
  144. # [07:05] * Joins: mcdave (n=mcdave@83.97.164.135)
  145. # [07:07] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@caffeine.cc.com.au)
  146. # [07:13] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@caffeine.cc.com.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  147. # [07:20] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@72.14.224.1)
  148. # [07:24] <roc> what should cloning a media element do?
  149. # [07:24] <roc> should it clone the current source, current time, and all other internal state?
  150. # [07:26] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  151. # [07:33] <cardona507> mpilgrim - diving into HTML 5 - great article
  152. # [07:39] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  153. # [07:39] <cardona507> ^book
  154. # [07:42] <roc> mpilgrim: in the canvas chapter, where you mention 3D, you might want to mention WebGL
  155. # [07:45] * Quits: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  156. # [07:47] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  157. # [07:53] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) ("Leaving")
  158. # [07:54] * Joins: zcorpan__ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  159. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> roc dropped off.. I was going to say that as far as mentioning WebGL it could help a lot of Mozilla and/or Khronos actually published some public information about it somewhere
  160. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> last I looked I could not find anything
  161. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> just a high-level overview page somewhere, and maybe some kind of status update about the progress of the discussions
  162. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> and some current list of organizations who are involved in the discussions
  163. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> of course what would really help is if the draft spec and the discussions themselves were actually public
  164. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> but so far there doesn't seem to be much indication that's actually going to happen any time soon
  165. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> (unless I missed some recent news)
  166. # [08:03] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  167. # [08:04] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: feel like fixing <footer> in v.nu? :)
  168. # [08:07] <virtuelv> I really, really, really wish Google stopped treating me as a lab rat on the search results page
  169. # [08:07] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: Khronos doesn't use a public process, sadly
  170. # [08:08] <othermaciej> the Apple folks in the relevant Khronos group seem to think it's going ok
  171. # [08:08] <zcorpan> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=646
  172. # [08:08] <othermaciej> I do wish we'd used a standards org with public process for this
  173. # [08:13] * Joins: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@77.236.204.8)
  174. # [08:13] * Quits: zcorpan__ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  175. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> I'm glad to hear it's going OK at least. I think it will prove to be something extremely useful to developers
  176. # [08:15] * Joins: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@adsl-75-61-83-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  177. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I guess I would just hope that those involved who have worked to help for more openness at the W3C and elsewhere (instead of on member-only lists and such) would also make an genuine effort to push for similar change for real openness there
  178. # [08:20] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: Chris Marrin of Apple is the editor of the spec, and Oliver Hunt and a few others from Apple are also involved
  179. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: can you remind me what needs to be fixed around footer? is there an open bug? if it's an easy one I can try to get it fixed fast
  180. # [08:20] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I expect changing Khronos would be hard - I wish a different venue had been chosen
  181. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: ah, cool. that's good to know
  182. # [08:21] <othermaciej> Khronos also makes it very likely that Microsoft will not participate or ever adopt the spec
  183. # [08:21] <Hixie> othermaciej: seems like it'd be pretty easy if opera, google, mozilla, and apple all said "ok let's make this a public process or we quit"
  184. # [08:22] <othermaciej> Hixie: Mozilla and Google were the main ones who pushed for the spec to be done using Khronos's known non-open process, IIRC
  185. # [08:22] <othermaciej> but I should probably join the list and get a handle on what's up
  186. # [08:22] <Hixie> i'd be mildly surprised if google was, but ok
  187. # [08:22] <Hixie> and i don't get why mozilla would want a closed process
  188. # [08:22] <Hixie> but i know they were pushing khronos
  189. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: if there wasn't open discussion about the choice of venue before that choice was made -- that is, if the choice was basically made unilaterally without much discussion among the potential implementors and other stakeholders... well, that is pretty disheartening on its own
  190. # [08:24] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: as far as I can tell, it was mainly decided by Mozilla (possibly also Google but not sure)
  191. # [08:24] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: by the time they talked to us about it, they'd already talked to Khronos and decided it was the way to go
  192. # [08:25] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: change content model to the same as <header>. don't know if there's a bug, but iirc hixie annotated the checkin as affecting validators
  193. # [08:25] <othermaciej> we'd have preferred open process, but Apple participates in Khronos a lot already so we can't really call it a bad venue
  194. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: hmm. that seems really unfortunate but I guess I should shut about it
  195. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> *shut up about it
  196. # [08:25] <othermaciej> the risk I'm afraid of is too many graphics experts and not enough web technology experts
  197. # [08:26] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  198. # [08:26] * zcorpan embeds a youtube video in http://blog.whatwg.org/vim-checker with just <embed>
  199. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: that doesn't seem like so big a risk.. I guess the quality of the representation is more important then the quantity
  200. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> and sounds like you guys have the right people in their at least
  201. # [08:27] <zcorpan> Hixie: the markup youtube provides for embedding videos could be simplified
  202. # [08:28] <Hixie> not surprised
  203. # [08:28] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  204. # [08:29] <hsivonen> http://codinginparadise.org/weblog/2009/09/new-svg-web-release-owlbear.html says: "SVG itself stands for Scalable Vector Graphics, an open standard that is part of the HTML 5 family of technologies for interactive, search-engine friendly web vector graphics."
  205. # [08:29] * Joins: dave_levin__ (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  206. # [08:29] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I'm told that at times it's hard to get people to really understand that APIs that are part of the Web platform need to be safe - you can't let bad calls cause leaks or crashes
  207. # [08:29] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: classically, OpenGL counts on the application developer to get things right
  208. # [08:29] <tantek> HTML 5 "family of technologies" ?
  209. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: very cool video
  210. # [08:30] <othermaciej> HTML5 is a very flexible buzzword
  211. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: much better then the crappy screenshot I had there before that the dog ate
  212. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> the term HTML5 has market value.. other technologies should be happy to be associated with it
  213. # [08:32] <zcorpan> it seems that every five years or so, a new buzzword appears that means the same thing: DHTML, Ajax, HTML5
  214. # [08:32] <tantek> MikeSmith, has "HTML5" superceded "W3C" as the buzzword of choice?
  215. # [08:32] <zcorpan> was W3C ever a buzzword?
  216. # [08:33] <hsivonen> I guess "the Open Web Platform family of technologies" would be a bit long
  217. # [08:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it was when the WaSP started
  218. # [08:33] <tantek> e.g. SVG was part of the W3C family of technologies for interactive search-engine friendly web vector graphics
  219. # [08:33] * MikeSmith considers how to finesse wording for associating client-side XSLT with HTML5...
  220. # [08:33] * Quits: dave_levin__ (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  221. # [08:34] <tantek> zcorpan W3C was a buzzword as long as most of the work that came out of W3C was for the Open Web Platform in practice
  222. # [08:35] * hsivonen wonders if SVG/HTML5 is a bit like GNU/Linux from the SVG POV
  223. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: counting on application developers to get things right doesn't seem to be the safest approach for the Web.. I'm reminded of the current discussion about mutex-like locking and also Crockord's comment "most of the world's body of JavaScript programs is crap"
  224. # [08:35] <tantek> when the work became primarily about "enterprise/intranet" technologies (e.g. XML*** family) rather than the public world wide web, you might say the term W3C lost favor among those who worked hard for the actual open web.
  225. # [08:36] <tantek> hsivonen - originally SVG was one of many efforts that was supposed to obsolete/kill HTML.
  226. # [08:36] <hsivonen> tantek: not just enterprise/intranet but also mobile not-the-real-Web and Semantic Web
  227. # [08:37] <hsivonen> tantek: interesting. SVG seems to be in a different category
  228. # [08:37] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: browsers simply can't offer APIs that let Web content cause crashes or hangs; but I'm sure it will all be worked out, it just takes a bunch of explaining at times
  229. # [08:37] <hsivonen> tantek: though the API stuff occasionally seems like ignoring what was already there
  230. # [08:37] <tantek> hsivonen - the mobile companies weren't fooled for long, and switched toward actual open web technologies quite quickly
  231. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> tantek: I guess I think in general that the name of any one particular organization is not the best term to use as a term for promoting a particular set of technologies
  232. # [08:38] <tantek> MikeSmith - it should have been, given that W3C's mission was/is to lead the web to its full potential.
  233. # [08:39] <hsivonen> tantek: it turns out the Web doesn't mean what it seems to mean
  234. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I think the basic explanation to them should be, don't assume this stuff will be used safely and responsibly by thoughtful programmers who actually know what they are doing and won't shoot themselves in the foot
  235. # [08:40] * hsivonen has discovered that the W3C's mission statement is very unhelpful as a frame of discussion on what the W3C should do
  236. # [08:40] <tantek> hsivonen - "the Web" means *the* Web, it doesn't mean a bunch of little closed webs (intranets), it also means the *existing* Web, not some future parallel universe all-cleaned-up Web.
  237. # [08:40] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  238. # [08:40] <hsivonen> tantek: oh, I agree with you
  239. # [08:42] <othermaciej> tantek: WAP and the rainbow spectrum of Mobile Profiles of things aren't quite dead yet...
  240. # [08:43] <tantek> othermaciej - the mobile profiles that diverge from actual open web technologies are dead enough. does iPhone support WAP 1.0?
  241. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> tantek: someone I know once said to me, "Standards bodies don't age well." ... it is perhaps to be expected that any given standards body that's around for long enough is going to eventually do some things to seriously disappoint some of the very people who helped to build it and make it successful
  242. # [08:43] <othermaciej> tantek: iPhone does not support that stuff (as far as I know)
  243. # [08:43] <Hixie> i think standards bodies are an outdated concept
  244. # [08:43] <tantek> othermaciej - right. and BlackBerry barely does.
  245. # [08:44] <othermaciej> we do have vendors who want to ship WebKit with stuff like WAP, WCSS, XHTML MP, ESMP, etc bolted on
  246. # [08:44] <othermaciej> apparently due to residual carrier demand in some markets
  247. # [08:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: do you accept patches?
  248. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: the markets in question include mainland China
  249. # [08:44] <othermaciej> hsivonen: we have accepted patches for some of that stuff (as long as it's off by default and minimally intrusive to core code)
  250. # [08:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: isn't XHTML MP support in a backwards-compatible way incompatible with the Web?
  251. # [08:45] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: indeed, that is the main one cited
  252. # [08:45] <tantek> MikeSmith - I think it's the difference in this case between those who helped build it and make it successful, and those who pay membership dues and thus expect a stronger impact upon the steering of goals, resources, often divergent from the former group.
  253. # [08:45] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think that's true for ESMP as well (it's really a "profile" of both the DOM and ECMAScript)
  254. # [08:45] <hsivonen> IIRC, the mobile legacy puts pressure against parsing application/xhtml+xml as XML
  255. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: so I guess it could be argued it's a fairly pragmatic concern given the size of that market
  256. # [08:45] <tantek> Hixie, WHATWG is effectively a standards body - it just has different rules, procedures, culture, principles etc. than W3C.
  257. # [08:46] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I strongly urge people not to ship the stuff that incompatibly changes standard Web APIs
  258. # [08:46] <tantek> a W3C was/is different from IETF.
  259. # [08:46] <Hixie> tantek: whatwg is a mailing list.
  260. # [08:46] <tantek> Hixie, WHATWG *has a* mailing list.
  261. # [08:46] <tantek> it's still a *WG*
  262. # [08:46] <Hixie> tantek: sure, working groups aren't going anywhere
  263. # [08:46] <othermaciej> I think standards bodies may be necessary for competing companies to be able to legally collaborate without it being an antitrust violation
  264. # [08:47] <Dashiva> What does @role do that @class doesn't except assume support for lots of predefined values...
  265. # [08:47] <tantek> othermaciej - indeed, and the more open the standards body, the better.
  266. # [08:47] <zcorpan> hsivonen: indeed
  267. # [08:47] <Hixie> tantek: but it's not a standards body by any definition anyone would have given 5 years ago. i agree that it's what should happen to standards bodies, though
  268. # [08:47] <tantek> Hixie, neither is microformats.org
  269. # [08:47] <Hixie> tantek: indeed
  270. # [08:48] <hsivonen> Dashiva: @role is sensitive to accessibility API mapping. @class isn't.
  271. # [08:48] <Dashiva> hsivonen: But only because we declare it to be
  272. # [08:48] <othermaciej> I would say an organization creating a standard is a "standards body", no matter how informally constituted
  273. # [08:48] <tantek> othermaciej - indeed
  274. # [08:48] <hsivonen> Dashiva: well, initially everything is only because so declared to be
  275. # [08:48] <othermaciej> after all, for a long time the IETF had no legal existence whatsoever, and even now, its only formal existence is through association with other bodies like ISOC
  276. # [08:48] <hsivonen> Dashiva: then the legacy requirements kick in
  277. # [08:49] <hsivonen> Dashiva: with @role and ARIA, the legacy has already shipped
  278. # [08:49] * Quits: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  279. # [08:49] <tantek> othermaciej - "formal existence" may not be necessary for success.
  280. # [08:49] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Indeed. But the talk about using the full XHTML2 @role with all its vague uses doesn't have legacy
  281. # [08:49] <hsivonen> tantek: does microformats.org exist formally?
  282. # [08:49] <othermaciej> tantek: that may be so, although patent law and the paranoia about it can complicate matters
  283. # [08:50] <hsivonen> Dashiva: correct
  284. # [08:50] <Dashiva> So I'm wondering what's the difference between XHTML2 @role and our previously rejected predefined class names
  285. # [08:50] <tantek> othermaciej - indeed, and it's good that other orgs have done work (CC PD/CC0, W3C/IETF RF) that can be re-used.
  286. # [08:51] <othermaciej> IETF does not have an RF IPR policy
  287. # [08:51] <othermaciej> technically they are under RAND with disclosure requirements (though I think individual Working Groups can choose to chart an RF course)
  288. # [08:51] <tantek> hsivonen microformats.org is an all volunteer community that uses a website (wiki), an IRC channel, and a few mailing lists. not sure if that fulfills anyone's definition of "formal" or not, nor whether it matters whether it does or not.
  289. # [08:51] <hsivonen> Dashiva: XHTML2 @role takes non-predefined CURIEs
  290. # [08:52] <hsivonen> Dashiva: so XHTML2 @role is like the old HTML5 class with predefined names
  291. # [08:52] <othermaciej> role was originally considered to have predefined values plus open-ended non-predefined values
  292. # [08:52] <tantek> othermaciej: IETF RFC3667 & RFC3668.
  293. # [08:52] <hsivonen> Dashiva: where the XHTML2 predefined roles don't have colons and the non-predefined roles are CURIEs
  294. # [08:52] <othermaciej> people have at times argued that even the non-predefined values of @role are "more semantic" than any @class value
  295. # [08:53] <Dashiva> Well, take JF's statement that @role could be used instead of accesskey
  296. # [08:53] <tantek> features and functionality are as semantic as you define them to be. it's fairly pointless to argue that use of one attribute is "more semantic" than another in a vacuum.
  297. # [08:53] <hsivonen> maybe a useful definition of formal existence is whether it's a non-natural person that can hold copyrights
  298. # [08:53] <Dashiva> Wouldn't that require predefined roles?
  299. # [08:53] <hsivonen> Dashiva: landmarks?
  300. # [08:54] <Dashiva> No, he was talking about it in the XHTML2 context
  301. # [08:54] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I haven't read any email from JF this morning yet
  302. # [08:54] <othermaciej> Dashiva: that would require predefined roles
  303. # [08:54] <tantek> once XHTML2 went down the CURIE/namespace path for the role attribute, I gave up on it.
  304. # [08:54] <othermaciej> Dashiva: it also doesn't make sense for most application-level keyboard shortcuts
  305. # [08:54] <tantek> it is good to see that ARIA did not adopt that mistake
  306. # [08:55] <tantek> keyboard shortcuts are an *exceptionally* difficult problem to solve
  307. # [08:55] <hsivonen> tantek: it took some effort to get ARIA out of that hole
  308. # [08:55] <tantek> hsivonen - thanks for the clarification, I did not realize that.
  309. # [08:55] <Dashiva> jgraham: Good job on finding that summary table, by the way. It is indeed quite absurd.
  310. # [08:56] <tantek> it's amazing how complex technologies that raise the barrier for ease of use could possibly be seriously considered for a technology that supposed to *increase* accessibility
  311. # [08:56] <tantek> no amount of handwaving that a "role" attribute could solve/replace keyboard shortcuts is going to make it true
  312. # [08:57] <Dashiva> A lot of specs would be gone if handwaving had been outlawed :)
  313. # [08:58] * tantek can say this from having done *a lot* of work to replace/upgrade "accesskey" with a more flexible/platform-useful "key-equivalent" property. look for "key-equivalent" in this document: http://www.w3.org/Style/css3-updates/css3-ui-comments
  314. # [08:58] * Joins: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  315. # [08:58] <hsivonen> "[UPDATE: 'key-equivalent' has been dropped from this version of CSS3-UI.]"
  316. # [08:59] * hsivonen agrees it is a hard problem
  317. # [08:59] <tantek> precisely, hard enough to drop and not have it hold back other features.
  318. # [08:59] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  319. # [08:59] <othermaciej> tantek: I don't see anything in either of those RFCs requiring RF patent licensing - the latter specifically mentions that in your disclosure you can state an intent to license a patent under royalty-bearing RAND terms
  320. # [08:59] <tantek> othermaciej - said nothing about *requiring*
  321. # [09:00] <tantek> simply *having* an RF policy
  322. # [09:00] <tantek> so yes, IETF does *have* RF policy
  323. # [09:00] <tantek> they just don't *require* it
  324. # [09:00] <tantek> others can require it though
  325. # [09:00] <othermaciej> it has an IPR policy
  326. # [09:00] <tantek> which includes RF as an option
  327. # [09:01] <othermaciej> sure, but anyone is always free to license their IP under RF terms
  328. # [09:01] <tantek> that's undefined
  329. # [09:01] <othermaciej> or at least, I've never heard of a standards body that required you to charge royalties for any patents you hold
  330. # [09:01] <tantek> "RF terms" is specific to each standards body
  331. # [09:01] <tantek> that's bother to define it
  332. # [09:02] * tantek wishes there was Creative Commons equivalent for patent IPR policy.
  333. # [09:02] <hsivonen> tantek: isn't that what the Open Web Foundation is for?
  334. # [09:02] <Hixie> open web foundation isn't going to be doing it as far as i can tell
  335. # [09:02] <tantek> so you could say rel="patent-policy" href="http://creativecommons.org/rf/1" etc.
  336. # [09:03] * hsivonen really wishes there were a reusable RF policy--not a Creative Commons catalog of zillions of different policies to choose from
  337. # [09:04] <tantek> hsivonen, yes OWF is trying to solve this problem with a contribution template/boilerplate for open web technologies.
  338. # [09:04] <othermaciej> the IETF's definition of royalty-free terms is much less precise than the W3C's
  339. # [09:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: what is the OWF doing these days, then?
  340. # [09:04] <tantek> hsivonen, Hixie might not be the right person to ask, he quit the OWF.
  341. # [09:04] <othermaciej> they do say there is a preference for royalty-free, which I guess is a policy
  342. # [09:04] <tantek> othermaciej - agreed their terms are different.
  343. # [09:04] * tantek agrees with hsivonen in wishing for *a* reusable RF policy.
  344. # [09:09] * tantek has asked Creative Commons for this (a reusable RF policy) publicly, several times in open Q&A.
  345. # [09:09] <tantek> (over the years)
  346. # [09:12] <tantek> speaking of open web - anyone hear speak French? there's quite a conversation going (in French) in #openweb
  347. # [09:12] <tantek> s/hear/here
  348. # [09:12] <hsivonen> It seems to me that CC isn't really about Royalty Free or about Freedom in the FSF sense.
  349. # [09:12] <Dashiva> karl does, but he might not be around
  350. # [09:12] <Dashiva> karlcow/karlushi
  351. # [09:12] <hsivonen> CC is pushing for NonCommercial and MoreRights
  352. # [09:13] <hsivonen> which are about easy royalty
  353. # [09:13] <hsivonen> not royalty-free
  354. # [09:13] <tantek> hsivonen - the Science Commons effort is working toward RF-like language
  355. # [09:13] <tantek> it's the closest of the CC efforts towards RF
  356. # [09:13] <tantek> but it doesn't go far enough (IMHO)
  357. # [09:13] <hsivonen> also, Lessig's talks lately have focused on the ease of clearing rights for remixes--not about making remixes simply allowed without rights clearing
  358. # [09:13] <othermaciej> IPR policies are different from license agreements though
  359. # [09:14] <othermaciej> you can't just slap one on your work unilaterally
  360. # [09:14] <tantek> othermaciej - why not?
  361. # [09:14] * Quits: fishd_ (n=darin@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  362. # [09:14] <othermaciej> participants have to actually agree to it as grounds for participation
  363. # [09:14] <tantek> othermaciej - as they do for copyright assignment as well
  364. # [09:14] <tantek> no different
  365. # [09:15] <othermaciej> copyright assignment is a different issue than license agreement
  366. # [09:15] <tantek> not really. both are IP assignment.
  367. # [09:15] <othermaciej> there again, you need active assent of the participant, not just a passive license statement
  368. # [09:15] <othermaciej> a license agreement is not an IP assignment at all
  369. # [09:16] <othermaciej> it grants you a license for a work under certain conditions
  370. # [09:16] <tantek> a license is a form of IP assignment.
  371. # [09:16] <tantek> it's not all, but it is some
  372. # [09:16] <tantek> the mechanisms are similar enough that a rel to external document solution should work for both
  373. # [09:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: they're making a patent policy for specs made in a few months by small groups with the patent holders being the people who wrote the spec
  374. # [09:17] <othermaciej> I don't think a rel link in a document would create a legally binding requirement to assign copyright or disclose or license patents
  375. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: are comments by people who aren't spec editors left as an open IPR injection vector?
  376. # [09:18] <othermaciej> organizations that use copyright assignment make contributors actually sign a contract
  377. # [09:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't think any proposals by anyone has any effect on that
  378. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: that sucks
  379. # [09:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: not really
  380. # [09:19] <tantek> othermaciej - I'm not sure either, but IANAL, nor are you, so all I'm saying is that it *seems* possible - and that therefore it is worth some CC/open-content/standards lawyer's time to try to make it so.
  381. # [09:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: that's a non-issue in practice
  382. # [09:19] <tantek> hsivonen - it's definitely a problem with mailing lists
  383. # [09:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: patent violations come from primary participants and from people who had patents you didn't know about
  384. # [09:19] <tantek> where there is no IP requirement for contribution
  385. # [09:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: not from people who have patents and try to inject them into random specs
  386. # [09:20] <tantek> Hixie - IIRC the Sun/XLink/XPointer problem could be characterized as injection from holder.
  387. # [09:21] <Hixie> a non-wg member sent comments that caused the spec to change to intentionally infringe the commentor's patents?
  388. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I checked in the footer change to align with whatwg r3751 and tested it and I just now synced up qa-dev.w3.org:8888 to it for testing. Please check and let me know if anything appears broken.
  389. # [09:24] * Quits: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  390. # [09:28] <Hixie> holy crap, paul posted to the list
  391. # [09:29] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-222.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  392. # [09:29] <tantek> Paul does good work.
  393. # [09:33] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  394. # [09:34] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  395. # [09:38] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@72.14.224.1)
  396. # [09:38] * Quits: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@adsl-75-61-83-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  397. # [09:41] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  398. # [09:41] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@72.14.224.1)
  399. # [09:43] * Joins: tantekc (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  400. # [09:45] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  401. # [09:46] * Joins: foolip (n=philip@pat.se.opera.com)
  402. # [09:47] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-49.customers.d1-online.com)
  403. # [09:47] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65)
  404. # [09:47] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
  405. # [09:51] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@210-84-56-211.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  406. # [09:57] * Quits: fishd_ (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  407. # [10:04] <hsivonen> sigh. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HTML&diff=312446147&oldid=prev
  408. # [10:05] <erlehmann> hsivonen, but HTML 5 is official lingo, isnt it?
  409. # [10:07] <hsivonen> erlehmann: the vote said "HTML 5" but now even the W3C Editor's Draft says "HTML5"
  410. # [10:08] <hsivonen> othermaciej: is losing the space something that can be made official by lazy consensus?
  411. # [10:09] <erlehmann> hsivonen, impeach the editor ;)
  412. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Super Friends asked for the space to be dropped, too.
  413. # [10:11] <othermaciej> hsivonen: the whatwg draft seems to be consistently spaceless, as is the latest Editor's Draft
  414. # [10:12] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't think anyone is asking for the space back, so we could make it a WG decision, but I'm also not sure it is worth the WG's time
  415. # [10:12] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't know if a WG vote would be binding on Wikipedia in any case
  416. # [10:12] <othermaciej> er, WG consensus resolution
  417. # [10:14] * Quits: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@99-35-179-251.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  418. # [10:14] <annevk2> I think there will be a lot of confusion about microformats being layered on top and not being directly associated with the markup.
  419. # [10:15] <tantekc> annevk2 why?
  420. # [10:16] <Hixie> are we seriously discussing the consensus on whether there should be a space between the L and the 5 in "HTML5"?
  421. # [10:16] <tantekc> existing success of microformats would seem to refute that hypothesis
  422. # [10:16] <annevk2> sorry, microdata
  423. # [10:16] <annevk2> such similar names :)
  424. # [10:16] <hsivonen> annevk2: the spec needs to say something to make that clear
  425. # [10:17] <tantekc> annevk2 - I think microformats have proven out that simple microdata will likely be a success as well.
  426. # [10:17] <annevk2> e.g. on the list people talk about adding semantics by using microdata
  427. # [10:17] <annevk2> but things like <dialog> cannot be introduced with microdata
  428. # [10:18] <tantekc> annevk2 - not true, in fact, there has been work on microformats for conversations
  429. # [10:19] <tantekc> which I expect to do a better job than <dialog>
  430. # [10:19] <annevk2> how do you handle arbitrary markup?
  431. # [10:19] <annevk2> e.g. images, boldening, links, etc. in a phrase a person just typed
  432. # [10:20] <erlehmann> othermaciej, nothing is binding for wikipedia.
  433. # [10:20] <tantekc> annevk2 - based on what real world evidence are you asking/implying that handling arbitrary markup is necessary?
  434. # [10:20] <othermaciej> presumably ability to cite an authoritative reference is binding, to the extent anything is
  435. # [10:20] <tantekc> see here for current research into conversation/chat examples: http://microformats.org/wiki/chat-examples
  436. # [10:21] <tantekc> feel free to add any more real world evidence you have to that page
  437. # [10:21] * hsivonen wonders if othermaciej's statements in an IRC log are authoritative for Wikipedia purposes
  438. # [10:21] <erlehmann> regarding microformats … Hixie, didn't you do a markup study (or planned to do) ?
  439. # [10:22] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I would guess next time HTML5 is published by the HTML WG, you could cite the TR link
  440. # [10:22] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if they would find the Editor's Draft authoritative
  441. # [10:22] <tantekc> erlehmann - the latest broad data on microformats is available via Yahoo Search monkey
  442. # [10:22] <Hixie> erlehmann: we're recruiting participants now
  443. # [10:22] <erlehmann> Hixie, fine to know. :)
  444. # [10:24] <annevk2> tantekc, the logs for this channel often have links at least, in #html-wg pimpbot utters things in colors but the details are not logged, I expect that if Google Wave takes off a little you get more conversations with images, maybe video, etc.
  445. # [10:24] <erlehmann> tantekc, if you couly put a time element / attribute in a dialog, would it help ?
  446. # [10:24] <othermaciej> I wish more albums that I'm actually interested in had iTunes LP available
  447. # [10:24] <annevk2> tantekc, though simple images is already done today in most IM clients
  448. # [10:25] <tantekc> erlehmann - <dialog> is too broken to be worth discussing what might be necessary to fix it.
  449. # [10:25] <erlehmann> tantekc, can you elaborate on that ?
  450. # [10:25] <annevk2> tantekc, I agree we should drop <dialog>
  451. # [10:26] <tantekc> annevk2 - if you can add URLs to illustrative examples of the phenomena you mention to the /wiki/chat-examples page - it would be appreciated.
  452. # [10:26] * annevk2 filed a bug to that effect
  453. # [10:26] <erlehmann> hmm, does the xmpp xhtml-im need an overhaul then to keep up with waves and HTML 5 (ha, spaces) ?
  454. # [10:26] <tantekc> annevk2 - feel free to add a +1 to that bug from me.
  455. # [10:26] * tantekc is now known as tantek
  456. # [10:26] <erlehmann> annevk2, and how do i markup natural conversations then ? going back to <dl>s ?
  457. # [10:28] * Joins: takoratta (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  458. # [10:28] <tantek> erlehmann - see the markup here: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2009-08-29
  459. # [10:29] <tantek> it makes quite good use of existing HTML 4.01 semantic elements
  460. # [10:29] * Joins: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
  461. # [10:29] <erlehmann> tantek, and it uses <cite> in a way it was agreed not to in HTML5
  462. # [10:30] <tantek> erlehmann - HTML5 is broken in that regard
  463. # [10:30] <tantek> as there is numerous existing uses of <cite> with that semantic
  464. # [10:30] <tantek> thus HTML5 should be amended to match existing semantic use of <cite>
  465. # [10:30] <annevk2> erlehmann, whatever markup suits your usecase best
  466. # [10:31] <tantek> that use of <cite> has been well documented and implemented in markup since at least 2005
  467. # [10:31] <annevk2> erlehmann, HTML5 does not have dedicated markup for all use cases, see e.g. the chapters on tag clouds and footnotes
  468. # [10:31] <takkaria> how about making i and cite semantically identical?
  469. # [10:31] <erlehmann> annevk2, i use dialog currently, mainly because it is a) simple and b) enables me to state that several people said something simultaneously (am i understanding it right ?)
  470. # [10:32] <erlehmann> takkaria, <i> ? sure you are joking
  471. # [10:32] <tantek> takkaria - it's a smaller change to simply allow <cite> to represent a speaking person, as allowable per HTML 4.01 and in use given the examples.
  472. # [10:32] <erlehmann> tantek, i would prefer it too, but to markup quotes i heard.
  473. # [10:33] <tantek> quotes heard or seen
  474. # [10:33] <tantek> e.g. in an IRC channel
  475. # [10:33] <takkaria> erlehmann: not being entirely serious
  476. # [10:34] <annevk2> erlehmann, I think you might be using it wrong then
  477. # [10:35] <annevk2> erlehmann, yeah, if you use multiple <dt> followed by a single <dd> you're doing it wrong
  478. # [10:35] <annevk2> erlehmann, so maybe it's not simple :)
  479. # [10:37] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-49.customers.d1-online.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  480. # [10:37] * Joins: erlehmann_ (n=erlehman@tmo-105-49.customers.d1-online.com)
  481. # [10:39] <erlehmann_> annevk2, its not allowed ? :(
  482. # [10:41] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.85.213.215) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  483. # [10:41] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  484. # [10:42] <annevk2> erlehmann_, I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it
  485. # [10:42] <annevk2> erlehmann_, you could read the spec
  486. # [10:42] * erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmann
  487. # [10:43] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  488. # [10:43] <annevk2> erlehmann, the validator flags it too...
  489. # [10:43] <erlehmann> :/
  490. # [10:47] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  491. # [10:50] * Quits: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  492. # [10:53] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  493. # [10:55] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@77.132.3.188)
  494. # [11:01] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  495. # [11:12] <zcorpan> polyglot++
  496. # [11:12] <annevk2> seriously?
  497. # [11:12] <jgraham> It's OK, polyglot is idempotent under addition
  498. # [11:18] <zcorpan> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/09/08/First-Polyglot-Validator-Check-Deployed#c1252572959
  499. # [11:18] * Quits: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  500. # [11:21] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-bvzzluuerhuzskwl)
  501. # [11:25] <Philip`> Hixie: "A news organisation's front page ..." - shouldn't that be 'organization' in en-US?
  502. # [11:26] * Joins: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
  503. # [11:28] <Lachy> why is <meta http-equiv="Refresh"> considered conforming?
  504. # [11:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: was the PDF <link> example intended to link to /en/html ?
  505. # [11:30] <annevk2> Lachy, there's no equivalent
  506. # [11:30] <zcorpan> Refresh: ... is equivalent :)
  507. # [11:31] <annevk2> is that implemented?
  508. # [11:31] <zcorpan> iirc yes
  509. # [11:31] <Lachy> annevk2, HTTP 302 for most cases
  510. # [11:31] * annevk2 thought only one or two browsers did that
  511. # [11:31] <Lachy> and for the case of a delayed refresh, that should never ever be used
  512. # [11:31] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-105-49.customers.d1-online.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  513. # [11:31] <annevk2> Lachy, disagreed, but I forgot the reason
  514. # [11:31] <zcorpan> Lachy: if it's not conforming, people will use setTimeout and location.href instead
  515. # [11:32] <Lachy> but the most common case is using it as <meta http-equiv="refresh" content="0;http://...">
  516. # [11:32] <zcorpan> Lachy: the meta is easier to block for users
  517. # [11:33] <Lachy> we should at least warn about it, especially when it's being used for rediection
  518. # [11:33] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  519. # [11:33] <Lachy> *redirection
  520. # [11:35] <zcorpan> lol Frontweaver
  521. # [11:36] * Quits: Hish (n=chatzill@212.23.139.152) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  522. # [11:36] <Philip`> Lachy: That "most common case" seems to be about half of all Refreshes
  523. # [11:37] <Philip`> and the other half are mostly small numbers like 1 and 5 and 3 and 10 etc
  524. # [11:37] * Joins: Hish_ (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de)
  525. # [11:37] * Hish_ is now known as Hish
  526. # [11:37] <Philip`> and a handful like 1800 which are presumably for auto-refreshing pages, not for redirects
  527. # [11:40] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@81.57.187.57)
  528. # [11:43] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-247-107.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  529. # [11:49] * Joins: tyoshino_ (n=tyoshino@220.109.219.244)
  530. # [11:52] * Quits: kconragan1 (n=Adium@nat11.metaweb.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  531. # [11:52] * Joins: kconragan (n=Adium@nat07.metaweb.com)
  532. # [11:56] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  533. # [11:57] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  534. # [11:58] * Joins: shepazutoo (n=schepers@68.221.74.58)
  535. # [12:03] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu) (Remote closed the connection)
  536. # [12:04] * Joins: fossildesigns (i=18c5fe90@gateway/web/freenode/x-skxopdfdtnogezpy)
  537. # [12:05] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-221-74-58.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  538. # [12:06] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  539. # [12:07] * Quits: tyoshino (n=tyoshino@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  540. # [12:07] * Quits: lazni (n=lazni@118.71.168.35) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  541. # [12:08] * Quits: fossildesigns (i=18c5fe90@gateway/web/freenode/x-skxopdfdtnogezpy) (Client Quit)
  542. # [12:14] * Joins: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244)
  543. # [12:14] <Hixie> othermaciej: hah, iTunes 9 just crashed on me in WebCore::HTMLTokenizer::parseTag() :-P
  544. # [12:14] <Hixie> (well, actually in the hashtable code, but frame 4 was the tokeniser)
  545. # [12:15] * Joins: |zalan| (n=kvirc@catv-89-135-144-193.catv.broadband.hu)
  546. # [12:16] <Hixie> wow, snow leopard's crash reporting is more advanced than leopard's, even
  547. # [12:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: what does iTunes 9 use WebCore for?
  548. # [12:18] <Hixie> itunes store, it seems
  549. # [12:18] <hsivonen> interesting
  550. # [12:18] <hsivonen> I thought iTunes store was using a product-specific markup language without WebKit
  551. # [12:18] <hsivonen> has it always been like that or does 9 change things substantially?
  552. # [12:19] <annevk2> per gruber it's 9
  553. # [12:19] <hsivonen> ah
  554. # [12:20] * jgraham assumes that Apple will nevertheless prevent people accessing iTunes Web Store using an ordinary web browser
  555. # [12:20] <hsivonen> it's quite sad, really.
  556. # [12:20] <hsivonen> I would have made purchases in the iTunes store using Ubuntu if they had a pure Web UI
  557. # [12:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but since you want iTunes store so badly, you don't use Ubuntu, right?
  558. # [12:22] <beowulf> the css for the itunes store is at http://ax.itunes.apple.com/htmlResources/CFA7/dt-storefront.cssz
  559. # [12:23] <beowulf> so the internet says
  560. # [12:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: well, now we both an Ubuntu box and a Mac at home but the Mac came for a different reason
  561. # [12:23] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@77.132.3.188) (Remote closed the connection)
  562. # [12:23] <Hixie> HOLY SWEET KITTENS
  563. # [12:24] <Hixie> itunes9 has boolean search queries in the smart playlists finally
  564. # [12:24] <jgraham> Ah, I thought you had just discovered a tasty snack
  565. # [12:25] <Hixie> i can reconstruct my playlists so that i just have one "Music Mix" playlist instead of having to construct it using about 9 playlists that are slowly mixed together to do all the "and"ing and "or"ing that i wanted
  566. # [12:27] * jgraham wonders if he is abnormal because he hardly ever uses playlist features
  567. # [12:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: you aren't
  568. # [12:28] <Hixie> i need playlists so that i can get itunes to sync the right podcasts to my ipod
  569. # [12:28] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  570. # [12:29] * Philip` just runs Audacious with a flat list of 247 hours of audio files, and has never had any desire for more organisation
  571. # [12:29] <hsivonen> I wish people sarted doing QA with 1.0 UI cale factor
  572. # [12:30] <hsivonen> *started
  573. # [12:30] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  574. # [12:31] <Philip`> *scale?
  575. # [12:31] <jgraham> Needing to have iTunes is one of the reasons I don't have an iPod.
  576. # [12:31] <Philip`> Isn't 1.0 the default?
  577. # [12:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes
  578. # [12:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: non-1.0
  579. # [12:31] <hsivonen> at least 3 bugs in one sentence so far
  580. # [12:31] <Philip`> Ah
  581. # [12:31] <hsivonen> I lose
  582. # [12:32] * Quits: takoratta (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  583. # [12:34] * Quits: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  584. # [12:36] <hsivonen> Does Mac OS X, in principle, support differnt scale factors for different screens?
  585. # [12:37] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm up to 427 hours of just (legally-acquired) music, and that's not counting tv shows, movies, podcasts, poetry tracks, audiobooks, etc
  586. # [12:37] <Hixie> Philip`: so i need to narrow it down to sync to my music player
  587. # [12:39] <Philip`> Hixie: You just need a higher-capacity music player
  588. # [12:39] <Hixie> i was going to get the new ipod touch, but it's not really compelling enough to justify $400 or whatever it was
  589. # [12:43] <Lachy> Hixie, in webdatabase, when a database is first opened with "" as the version using: openDatabase("name", "", "Display Name", "1024"); and then next it's opened with "foo" as the version, should it throw an exception?
  590. # [12:43] <Hixie> off the top of my head, yes
  591. # [12:43] <Lachy> Our developer thinks the spec is ambiguous about this because the empty string is used to mean any version is fine
  592. # [12:43] <Hixie> i thought i made this very clear recently
  593. # [12:43] <Hixie> i changed it to have an explicit algorithm
  594. # [12:43] <Lachy> that's what I thought too
  595. # [12:47] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-73-15.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  596. # [12:51] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu)
  597. # [12:52] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-222.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  598. # [12:53] <Lachy> Hixie, this requirement makes no sense "If a callback was passed to the method, then let the database's version be the empty string. Otherwise, let its version be the given database version"
  599. # [12:54] <Hixie> it certainly seems odd
  600. # [12:54] <Lachy> I assume it should be saying if the version passed was not the empty string or something
  601. # [12:54] <Hixie> send mail?
  602. # [12:54] <Lachy> ok, will do when I sort out what the spec is supposed to be saying for steps 3 and 4
  603. # [12:54] * Hixie looks
  604. # [12:56] <Hixie> actually it means exactly what it says
  605. # [12:56] <Lachy> Hixie, it should say something like this:
  606. # [12:56] <Lachy> * Database exists?
  607. # [12:56] <Lachy> - Version passed is empty, or version passed matches existing version? Open database.
  608. # [12:56] <Lachy> - Version passed is not empty and does not match, throw INVALID_STATE_ERR
  609. # [12:56] <Lachy> * Otherwise, database does not exists:
  610. # [12:56] <Lachy> - Create and open the database, let "created" be true. Set the version to the version passed.
  611. # [12:57] <Hixie> (except for missing the "." at the end of the sentence)
  612. # [12:58] <Lachy> but it doesn't make any sense for the value of the version to be set based on whether or not a callback was passed.
  613. # [12:58] <Hixie> yeah, it does
  614. # [12:58] <Lachy> how does it?
  615. # [12:58] <Hixie> because the callback is meant to call changeVersion()
  616. # [12:58] <Lachy> what?
  617. # [12:59] <Hixie> otherwise, two calls to the method at the same time would both call the callback
  618. # [12:59] <Hixie> or, one would call the callback and the other would succeed, but before the callback in the other thread had finished
  619. # [12:59] * Joins: erikvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
  620. # [13:01] <Lachy> oh. That just makes things confusing. So if I call openDatabase("db", "foo", "Whatever", 1024, callback); then the version is meant to be set to "" regardless?
  621. # [13:01] <Hixie> only if the database doesn't exist
  622. # [13:02] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu) (Remote closed the connection)
  623. # [13:03] <Lachy> ok, well we don't support the creation callback yet anyway, so we can ignore that statement for now
  624. # [13:03] <Lachy> so just considering the cases where there is no callback
  625. # [13:04] <Lachy> the steps as written are still not particularly clear
  626. # [13:04] <Hixie> yeah
  627. # [13:04] <Hixie> remind me in 15 minutes
  628. # [13:04] <Lachy> ok
  629. # [13:08] * Quits: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  630. # [13:09] * Quits: erikvold (n=erikvvol@96.49.192.204)
  631. # [13:10] <karlcow> [03:06] <Dashiva> karl does, but he might not be around
  632. # [13:10] <karlcow> even a better person to ask is people from CreativeCommons who are part of the htmlwg.
  633. # [13:12] <karlcow> indeed CreativeCommons is a way to fill the space in between two extremes: Copyrights to Public Domain, with a variety of options.
  634. # [13:17] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  635. # [13:19] <Hixie> man, even since i put my cat's e-mail address in the spec, he gets more spam than i do
  636. # [13:20] <jgraham> I guess if you didn't spy on your cat's inbox it might not bother you so much
  637. # [13:20] <beowulf> if you can train him to filter that spam you could make money from it i'm sure
  638. # [13:20] <Hixie> umm... would you believe "he asked me to redirect his mail to my inbox"?
  639. # [13:20] <Hixie> so that i can read his mail for him, since, you know, he's a cat
  640. # [13:21] <annevk2> you know, most cats don't have email addresses
  641. # [13:21] <jgraham> It sounds like you're jsut checking that he doesn't get email from other would-be owners
  642. # [13:22] <Hixie> he needed an e-mail address to get his livejournal account...
  643. # [13:23] <Hixie> Lachy: ok, updated the steps a bit.
  644. # [13:23] <Hixie> give it a few secs to upload
  645. # [13:23] <jgraham> (interesting aside: my landlady did actually steal someone else's cat by placing a continual supply of food outside the door so that it preferred living in our building to his actual home. Then, when he needed to go to the vet she went and talked to the real owners and somehow convinced them that she should take it to the vet and keep it thereafter)
  646. # [13:24] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/ppk/status/3867647272
  647. # [13:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: so sad
  648. # [13:24] <Hixie> (the "normal" part)
  649. # [13:26] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE03bc.bae.pppool.de)
  650. # [13:28] <Hixie> ok i'm starting to notice a bad trend
  651. # [13:28] <Hixie> when i work on e-mails, bug count goes up
  652. # [13:28] <Hixie> when i work on bugs, e-mail count goes up
  653. # [13:28] <Hixie> let's see what happens when i sleep
  654. # [13:28] <Hixie> nn
  655. # [13:33] <Lachy> Hixie, the spec is clearer now. Thanks
  656. # [13:34] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-73-15.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  657. # [13:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: we've had other reports of iTunes crashes while tokenizing - oddly it doesn't seem to happen in Safari
  658. # [13:36] <annevk2> doesn't your parser have some non-Web flags?
  659. # [13:37] <hsivonen> looks like iTunes broke with HIG again and has an almost-but-not-quite unified window look
  660. # [13:42] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  661. # [13:44] <hsivonen> was the it ever considered if scripts should have an attribute that does defer them (as opposed to defer and async) but promises that the scripts won't do document.write?
  662. # [13:44] <hsivonen> with some obvious penalty for doing document.write anyway
  663. # [13:44] * hsivonen is tempted to prototype and benchmark such a feature in the future
  664. # [13:48] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  665. # [13:52] * Joins: annevk3 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  666. # [13:53] * Parts: annevk3 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  667. # [13:53] * Joins: annevk3 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  668. # [13:55] <zcorpan> "limit when <!-- takes escaping effect so that it only takes escaping effect if there has been either nothing or only whitespace on the same line before it" -- http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CDATA_Escapes
  669. # [13:56] <zcorpan> any research in this area?
  670. # [13:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not yet
  671. # [13:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it seems Hixie isn't going to do it and I don't have enough time in Q3
  672. # [13:57] <zcorpan> i don't think it'll help much, as from what i remember when studying this before, pages have <!-- in the beginning of the script but no matching --> in the end
  673. # [13:59] <zcorpan> i don't see why we'd remove it from title, textarea and xmp
  674. # [14:00] <zcorpan> although i think it's only required for script
  675. # [14:00] <zcorpan> i.e. not style
  676. # [14:00] <zcorpan> style might even benefit from not having it, considering pages that have <style><!-- blah </style>
  677. # [14:01] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@125.175.251.212.customer.cdi.no)
  678. # [14:02] <annevk3> hsivonen, in your question it might help if you tell what it is for
  679. # [14:02] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu)
  680. # [14:02] <annevk3> hsivonen, I guess it is the speculative parsing stuff
  681. # [14:02] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu) (Client Quit)
  682. # [14:04] <zcorpan> hmm
  683. # [14:04] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70.36.139.128)
  684. # [14:05] <zcorpan> maybe we should require to have seen "<script" also
  685. # [14:06] <zcorpan> i.e. <script><!--</script> is closed but <script><!--<script></script></script> closes on the second end tag
  686. # [14:08] <hsivonen> annevk3: it's for avoiding a speculative future
  687. # [14:08] <hsivonen> annevk3: i.e. parsing past </script> ahead of time but committing to that future
  688. # [14:09] <annevk3> is that really a use case?
  689. # [14:09] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@81.57.187.57) (Read error: 148 (No route to host))
  690. # [14:09] <annevk3> if authors become aware of these issues they'll prolly just use <script defer> and such
  691. # [14:10] <hsivonen> annevk3: it's as much a use case as async has a use case if you formulate it from the author-perceived performace POV instead
  692. # [14:10] <hsivonen> annevk3: defer and async make the script execute later in the parse
  693. # [14:10] <annevk3> i thought async was for things that analyze the page and visitors and such
  694. # [14:11] <hsivonen> annevk3: I mean a promise that makes things faster without changing the detectable order of parsing and script execution
  695. # [14:11] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-ltzzvfinjaqkmgxm)
  696. # [14:11] <annevk3> i.e. execute asap but do not halt parsing
  697. # [14:11] <hsivonen> annevk3: it is
  698. # [14:11] * Joins: Unixmonkey (n=Unixmonk@mail.reprographix.com)
  699. # [14:11] <annevk3> i understand what you're proposing, i just don't see the use case
  700. # [14:11] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  701. # [14:12] <jgraham> I thought the use case was "be faster"
  702. # [14:12] <jgraham> Although I don't know if it is fater enough to make people actually care
  703. # [14:12] <othermaciej> it could be a minor performance benefit but I'd be surprised if it made much difference
  704. # [14:12] <hsivonen> annevk3: the use case is having a script set up event handler-triggered code (that the user can trigger during page load) near the top of the page without taking the perf hit of a speculative future
  705. # [14:12] <hsivonen> othermaciej: that may be
  706. # [14:12] * zcorpan adds a proposal to cdata escapes
  707. # [14:13] <hsivonen> othermaciej: which is why I'm asking if it was considered and I'm not proposing anything at this point
  708. # [14:13] <othermaciej> the main useful aspect of async/defer is not having to block parsing on a network load
  709. # [14:13] * syp__ is now known as syp_
  710. # [14:13] <mpilgrim> roc: i'm not planning on mentioning any 3d canvas proposals in this book
  711. # [14:13] <mpilgrim> you'll have to wait for "dive into html6"
  712. # [14:14] <othermaciej> with this proposed feature you have to block at least some aspects of parsing on the network load if the script is external, since the script can use DOM APIs to observe the DOM
  713. # [14:14] <zcorpan> my proposal would work for <script><!-- d.w('<script></script>'); d.w('<script></script>'); </script>
  714. # [14:15] <zcorpan> it would break for <script><!-- d.w('<scr'+'ipt></script>'); </script>
  715. # [14:15] <zcorpan> even <script><!-- d.w('<scr'+'ipt></script>'); --></script>
  716. # [14:18] <hsivonen> othermaciej: you'd block the actuation of the DOM ops on the main thread, but the parser thread could continue to produce a non-speculative stream of tree ops
  717. # [14:19] <annevk3> hsivonen, what would you do different if <script> didn't include the hint?
  718. # [14:19] <hsivonen> annevk3: create the bookkeeping for speculation
  719. # [14:20] <hsivonen> annevk3: hopefully not a big deal
  720. # [14:20] <hsivonen> like I said, I'm not proposing anything without data
  721. # [14:20] <hsivonen> just asking if Hixie has already considered this
  722. # [14:20] * Joins: seyDoggy (n=macagp@CPE0016cbc4baf9-CM001225d75790.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  723. # [14:20] * Parts: seyDoggy (n=macagp@CPE0016cbc4baf9-CM001225d75790.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  724. # [14:21] <annevk3> fair enough
  725. # [14:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what do you think about proposal #3?
  726. # [14:21] <othermaciej> hsivonen: our tokenizer is so cheap (relative to other things that happen during page loading) that I can't imagine even expending the effort to put it on a separate thread
  727. # [14:21] <othermaciej> hsivonen: maybe Gecko has wildly different performance characteristics
  728. # [14:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what proposal are you referring to?
  729. # [14:22] <zcorpan> in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CDATA_Escapes
  730. # [14:22] <annevk3> hmm, the tokenizing ahead will also fail if you do <select> <link> </select> or some such
  731. # [14:23] <annevk3> zcorpan, no chance you can work on Web DOM Core?
  732. # [14:24] <zcorpan> annevk3: not now anyway
  733. # [14:24] <hsivonen> annevk3: what do you mean tokenizing ahead will fail?
  734. # [14:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: proposal #3 seems more magic than proposal #2. I am unable to tell without empirical data which one is better.
  735. # [14:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: more magic scares me on the knee-jerk level
  736. # [14:26] <annevk3> hsivonen, you'd find links that get dropped
  737. # [14:26] <zcorpan> Philip`: which is better? :)
  738. # [14:27] <hsivonen> annevk3: starting speculative GETs that don't get used is fine
  739. # [14:27] <hsivonen> GET idempotence FTW
  740. # [14:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: my knee-jerk reaction to #2 is that it wouldn't do much of a difference for compat
  741. # [14:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan: we need data
  742. # [14:27] <zcorpan> indeed
  743. # [14:32] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-bvzzluuerhuzskwl) (Client Quit)
  744. # [14:38] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@92.37.70.149)
  745. # [14:41] * Joins: yutak_home (n=kee@M006079.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  746. # [14:44] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  747. # [14:47] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  748. # [14:48] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  749. # [14:49] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B01333F.dip.t-dialin.net)
  750. # [14:50] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-71-174.dynamic.amis.net)
  751. # [14:53] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p4040-ipbf1105marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  752. # [14:55] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@92.37.70.149) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  753. # [15:01] <karlushi> pigeons are fast http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/10/south-african-pigeon-transmits-data-faster-than-local-dsl/
  754. # [15:03] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-pipbhmktrdohserj)
  755. # [15:06] <hsivonen> where's the latest real-world URL spec that wasn't damaged to uselessness?
  756. # [15:08] <jcranmer> RFC 11-something?
  757. # [15:08] <hsivonen> I mean the one that was Web Addresses before getting edited too much
  758. # [15:08] <hsivonen> and that was the HTML5 URL section before that
  759. # [15:08] <jcranmer> ah, 1738
  760. # [15:09] <Philip`> zcorpan: I'm afraid that question requires too much thinking and interpretation from me, and I'm lazy :-p
  761. # [15:10] <hsivonen> jcranmer: I mean an non-fiction version--not the RFCs
  762. # [15:11] <hsivonen> is this the version that hasn't been edited too much? http://www.w3.org/html/wg/href/draft.html
  763. # [15:13] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.59) ("Leaving...")
  764. # [15:17] * annevk3 used http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-html5-20090423/infrastructure.html#urls
  765. # [15:18] <Lachy> karlushi, I've seen similar comparisons made in the past, but find those tests to be fairly meaningless. It will always be possible to send a physical disk with more data than can be transmitted over a network in the same time period, simply by increasing the required amount of data
  766. # [15:19] <annevk3> karlushi, hehe
  767. # [15:20] <jgraham> (or decreasing the distance)
  768. # [15:20] <jgraham> But it seems like their network speed was 11 kB/s which is pretty poor
  769. # [15:20] <Lachy> unless the test has been calibrated by calculating how much data would be expected to be transmitted in the time
  770. # [15:21] <annevk3> hsivonen, that version works too though it misses all the xrefs
  771. # [15:22] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  772. # [15:25] <Lachy> jgraham, 23kBps, http://www.google.com/search?q=4%25+of+4GB+%2F+2+hours although the article isn't clear about exactly how much data it is. It only says it was a 4GB memory card.
  773. # [15:26] <jgraham> Oh I remembered 2% somehow
  774. # [15:26] <hsivonen> annevk3: thanks
  775. # [15:30] * Joins: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@99-35-179-251.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
  776. # [15:57] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 105 (No buffer space available))
  777. # [16:00] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  778. # [16:00] * Joins: takoratta (n=takoratt@EM114-48-143-26.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  779. # [16:12] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  780. # [16:13] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@67.180.164.209)
  781. # [16:15] * Quits: yutak_home (n=kee@M006079.ppp.dion.ne.jp) ("Ex-Chat")
  782. # [16:19] * Joins: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  783. # [16:19] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@217.12.14.240)
  784. # [16:20] * Joins: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@p1173-ipbf2410marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  785. # [16:20] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-pipbhmktrdohserj) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  786. # [16:23] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  787. # [16:24] * hsivonen minted an authoritative source for Wikipedia to cite: http://blog.whatwg.org/spelling-html5
  788. # [16:25] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@67.180.164.209) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  789. # [16:26] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  790. # [16:27] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  791. # [16:27] <svl> hsivonen: now for someone to update http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/ etc
  792. # [16:28] <hsivonen> http://html5.org/ too
  793. # [16:29] * Quits: takoratta (n=takoratt@EM114-48-143-26.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  794. # [16:29] * Mrmil likes the new whatwg blog design, much better than the default :)
  795. # [16:32] <jgraham> The green bar still clashes with the other greens
  796. # [16:33] <hsivonen> the border around the whatwg logo sucks in Firefox
  797. # [16:34] <annevk2> html5.org fixed
  798. # [16:34] <hsivonen> annevk3: thanks
  799. # [16:34] <annevk2> svl, html5-diff is already fixed, see editor's draft
  800. # [16:35] <svl> annevk2: ah, indeed.
  801. # [16:50] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@67.180.164.209)
  802. # [16:53] * Quits: boblet (n=boblet@p1254-ipbf304osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) ("thxbye")
  803. # [16:57] * Joins: [1]mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  804. # [16:58] * Joins: da3d (n=opera@h11n1fls34o986.telia.com)
  805. # [16:59] * Parts: Mrmil (n=ut_ollie@77.236.204.8)
  806. # [17:01] * Joins: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@12.33.239.250)
  807. # [17:06] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  808. # [17:08] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  809. # [17:13] <annevk2> and, if you're around: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_Encodings#Encodings_3
  810. # [17:14] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  811. # [17:15] * Joins: hobertoAtWork (n=hobertoa@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com)
  812. # [17:15] * Quits: mpilgrim (n=mark@nat/google/x-rhdopjvojzqkreqh) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  813. # [17:15] * [1]mpilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
  814. # [17:16] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@67.180.164.209) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  815. # [17:18] * Quits: doobar (i=david@bsdguru.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  816. # [17:22] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-fmimgqcztpjtbtdz)
  817. # [17:23] <Lachy> svl, when I resume editing the HTML5 Reference soon, I'll convert everything from "HTML 5" to "HTML5"
  818. # [17:24] <Lachy> when did Hixie remove the distinction between "HTML 5" and "HTML5" that was once in the spec?
  819. # [17:24] <Philip`> A small number of days ago
  820. # [17:25] <Philip`> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3702&to=3703
  821. # [17:26] * Joins: doobar (i=david@bsdguru.net)
  822. # [17:27] * Joins: lazni (n=lazni@118.71.1.72)
  823. # [17:29] <Lachy> ok, so we no longer have a way to refer to HTML 5, the vocabulary, and instead only the ability to refer to the serialisations.
  824. # [17:30] <Philip`> You can refer to it as "HTML5", and if that's ambiguous use "the HTML5 vocabulary"
  825. # [17:30] <Lachy> yeah, I guess that's a lot less confusing than making it dependent upon a space
  826. # [17:30] <Lachy> which no-one used correctly anyway
  827. # [17:34] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  828. # [17:36] * Quits: annevk3 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  829. # [17:36] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  830. # [17:37] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65)
  831. # [17:38] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  832. # [17:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  833. # [17:50] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  834. # [17:53] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@72.14.224.1)
  835. # [18:00] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  836. # [18:03] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@114.48.2.143)
  837. # [18:04] * Quits: lazni (n=lazni@118.71.1.72) ("Leaving.")
  838. # [18:06] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  839. # [18:06] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  840. # [18:10] * Quits: karlushi (n=karlushi@209.104.75.194) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  841. # [18:11] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@125.175.251.212.customer.cdi.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  842. # [18:12] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  843. # [18:12] <mpilgrim> <annevk2> you know, most cats don't have email addresses
  844. # [18:12] <mpilgrim> my dog had an email address in 1995
  845. # [18:13] <takkaria> those were the days
  846. # [18:13] <mpilgrim> i had to fight for it with the ISP
  847. # [18:13] <takkaria> do you also have a fish licence?
  848. # [18:13] <mpilgrim> then the ISP died
  849. # [18:13] <mpilgrim> then the dog died
  850. # [18:13] <mpilgrim> that story was more depressing than i intended
  851. # [18:18] * Joins: karlushi (n=karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  852. # [18:21] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@125.175.251.212.customer.cdi.no)
  853. # [18:35] <Lachy> mpilgrim, why did your dog have an email address?
  854. # [18:37] <Philip`> How else would anyone send email to it?
  855. # [18:38] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm curious who would be sending e-mail to a dog?
  856. # [18:39] <beowulf> there was a dog could use an atm
  857. # [18:39] <Philip`> Maybe one of the dog's friends
  858. # [18:39] <beowulf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endal
  859. # [18:39] <Lachy> most other dogs can't type, and I'm sure all of his friends lived in the same neighbourhood and could communicate easily by barking.
  860. # [18:44] <Philip`> Maybe they are cyborg rat-things
  861. # [18:48] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  862. # [18:54] * Joins: ap (n=ap@17.246.19.174)
  863. # [18:55] * Joins: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108)
  864. # [18:57] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  865. # [19:03] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@217.12.14.240) (Client Quit)
  866. # [19:06] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.16.129)
  867. # [19:07] * Quits: takoratt_ (n=takoratt@p1173-ipbf2410marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  868. # [19:11] * Quits: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108)
  869. # [19:24] * shepazutoo is now known as shepazu
  870. # [19:33] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.116.185.236.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  871. # [19:33] * Quits: fishd_ (n=darin@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  872. # [19:36] * Quits: foolip (n=philip@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  873. # [19:43] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-222.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) ("Adios intarwebs.")
  874. # [19:49] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  875. # [20:00] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@67.180.164.209)
  876. # [20:02] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-222.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  877. # [20:05] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-ltzzvfinjaqkmgxm) (Connection reset by peer)
  878. # [20:07] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  879. # [20:10] * Joins: seyDoggy (n=macagp@CPE0016cbc4baf9-CM001225d75790.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  880. # [20:11] * Parts: seyDoggy (n=macagp@CPE0016cbc4baf9-CM001225d75790.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  881. # [20:11] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  882. # [20:13] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@72.14.224.1)
  883. # [20:14] * Joins: seyDoggy (n=macagp@CPE0016cbc4baf9-CM001225d75790.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  884. # [20:14] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@12.33.239.250)
  885. # [20:15] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-nlfaftxyfxlxltww)
  886. # [20:17] * Parts: seyDoggy (n=macagp@CPE0016cbc4baf9-CM001225d75790.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  887. # [20:20] * Joins: seyDoggy (n=macagp@CPE0016cbc4baf9-CM001225d75790.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  888. # [20:21] * Quits: fishd_ (n=darin@67.180.164.209) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  889. # [20:45] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  890. # [20:45] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.116.185.236.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  891. # [20:47] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.116.185.236.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  892. # [20:49] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@BAE03bc.bae.pppool.de) (Connection timed out)
  893. # [20:50] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z9fdf.z.pppool.de)
  894. # [20:52] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-bddzchmomgkorvgc)
  895. # [20:54] * Parts: seyDoggy (n=macagp@CPE0016cbc4baf9-CM001225d75790.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  896. # [20:56] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  897. # [20:57] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z9fdf.z.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  898. # [20:59] * Joins: AryehGregor_ (n=Simetric@69.201.183.184)
  899. # [21:00] * Quits: AryehGregor (n=Simetric@mediawiki/simetrical) (Nick collision from services.)
  900. # [21:00] * AryehGregor_ is now known as AryehGregor
  901. # [21:04] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  902. # [21:10] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-rbttaylerevcvaef)
  903. # [21:14] * Joins: benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-moaidrhyxgkccobv)
  904. # [21:16] * Joins: kconragan1 (n=Adium@nat11.metaweb.com)
  905. # [21:18] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@125.175.251.212.customer.cdi.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  906. # [21:20] * Quits: mcdave (n=mcdave@83.97.164.135) (Remote closed the connection)
  907. # [21:26] * Quits: kconragan (n=Adium@nat07.metaweb.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  908. # [21:26] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  909. # [21:27] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  910. # [21:29] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@125.175.251.212.customer.cdi.no)
  911. # [21:30] * Joins: michaeln (n=michaeln@nat/google/x-tcvtkxnvcopykcsp)
  912. # [21:32] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  913. # [21:32] * Joins: dpranke (n=Adium@nat/google/x-wxngcvbuwbpcpmtv)
  914. # [21:38] * Joins: jamesr (n=jamesr@nat/google/x-xqseqhwomotjynts)
  915. # [21:39] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  916. # [21:39] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@72.14.224.1)
  917. # [21:40] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@nat/google/x-ipxcexhnvpbtkimu)
  918. # [21:44] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  919. # [21:46] * Joins: GarethAdams_ (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  920. # [21:50] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@nat/mozilla/x-izubpjwfcurlyukl)
  921. # [22:04] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
  922. # [22:04] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-vclweslzbtuftayi)
  923. # [22:15] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.16.129)
  924. # [22:18] * Joins: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@66.240.27.50)
  925. # [22:20] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-rbttaylerevcvaef) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  926. # [22:20] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  927. # [22:25] * Joins: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  928. # [22:28] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  929. # [22:32] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-69-107-12-74.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  930. # [22:35] * Joins: jamesr_ (n=jamesr@nat/google/x-dmbtpxfyodzrrpmp)
  931. # [22:36] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  932. # [22:37] * Quits: jamesr_ (n=jamesr@nat/google/x-dmbtpxfyodzrrpmp) (Client Quit)
  933. # [22:39] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  934. # [22:39] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  935. # [22:41] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Connection timed out)
  936. # [22:41] * cying_ is now known as cying
  937. # [22:44] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  938. # [22:45] * Joins: jamesr_ (n=jamesr@nat/google/x-fowhvbfwpxxshwmm)
  939. # [22:45] * Quits: jamesr_ (n=jamesr@nat/google/x-fowhvbfwpxxshwmm) (Client Quit)
  940. # [22:45] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-vclweslzbtuftayi) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  941. # [22:45] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-obrjfzgwwfqdberk)
  942. # [22:47] <and> annevk2: Thanks.
  943. # [22:48] <and> annevk2: Does (???) mean that the encoding is not supported (any more)?
  944. # [22:48] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-bddzchmomgkorvgc) (Remote closed the connection)
  945. # [22:49] <and> annevk2: Are you at all interested in EBCDIC-based and old European 7-bit encodings?
  946. # [22:51] * Quits: jamesr (n=jamesr@nat/google/x-xqseqhwomotjynts) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  947. # [22:52] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-71-174.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  948. # [22:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: async="" penalises document.write(), no?
  949. # [22:53] <and> annevk2: (???) seems to correspond to long names in the text file, actually. I shall update the wiki.
  950. # [22:56] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Remote closed the connection)
  951. # [22:56] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  952. # [22:59] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-nlfaftxyfxlxltww)
  953. # [23:02] <and> annevk2: No, that does not seem plausible after all. I reiterate the question.
  954. # [23:05] * Quits: |zalan| (n=kvirc@catv-89-135-144-193.catv.broadband.hu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  955. # [23:06] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@72.14.224.1)
  956. # [23:07] * Joins: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  957. # [23:12] * Joins: jamesr (n=jamesr@nat/google/x-pijyudosutolkpoo)
  958. # [23:13] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@114.48.2.143) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  959. # [23:17] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  960. # [23:20] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  961. # [23:23] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Connection timed out)
  962. # [23:23] * cying_ is now known as cying
  963. # [23:23] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-lbdztbxmlyuokohs)
  964. # [23:23] * Quits: Hish (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  965. # [23:23] <and> annevk2: gsnedders: Firefox seems to understand the HTTP header 'Content-Type: text/plain; charset= "iso-8859-16" ', but does not accept whitespace before the equals sign or inside the (double) quotes. The spec annevk2 mentioned yesterday allows whitespace before the equals sign, if I remember correctly.
  966. # [23:24] * Quits: fishd_ (n=darin@c-67-180-164-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  967. # [23:25] <and> `svn co http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/build/trunk/ build` does not seem to work. Should it, or is there a better way to get hsivonen's parser?
  968. # [23:31] <gsnedders> and: Whitespace inside double quotes should matter, so it is right.
  969. # [23:32] <gsnedders> and: I still maintain my POV that the HTTP spec is what happens for HTTP headers, and the spec annevk2 linked to only deals with meta[@http-equiv="content-type"]
  970. # [23:34] <and> gsnedders: The spec annevk2 seems to be more ambitious.
  971. # [23:34] <and> gsnedders: Does the HTTP spec allow whitespace between charset and =?
  972. # [23:34] <gsnedders> and: I think so.
  973. # [23:35] <gsnedders> It's all a bit horrible with implied LWS (which isn't that uncommon in older specs)
  974. # [23:35] * Joins: murr4y` (n=murray@85.84-49-67.nextgentel.com)
  975. # [23:36] <and> gsnedders: Yes, I guess it means that whitespace is allowed if charset and = are to be regarded as two separate tokens.
  976. # [23:37] <gsnedders> Oh., no, you can't have it between the =
  977. # [23:37] <gsnedders> On either side.
  978. # [23:37] <and> s/annevk2/& linked to/
  979. # [23:37] <gsnedders> It's explicitly prohibited
  980. # [23:38] <gsnedders> LWS is allowed either side of the ; though
  981. # [23:39] * Joins: Kalms (n=rasmuska@81.161.185.108)
  982. # [23:40] <and> Two specifications and one implementation; three interpretations.
  983. # [23:42] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B01333F.dip.t-dialin.net) ("?Q")
  984. # [23:43] <gsnedders> Well, the HTTP spec doesn't define what to do for non-conforming messages
  985. # [23:49] <Lachy> Hixie, this section seems rather difficult to comprhend. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#distinguishing-site-wide-headings-from-page-headings
  986. # [23:49] <Lachy> But I get the impression that it's trying to tell authors to do this:
  987. # [23:50] <Lachy> <body><header><h1>Site Wide Heading></h1></header><article><h1>Page Heading</h1> ... </article><footer>...</footer></body>
  988. # [23:51] <Lachy> and if that's right, then it does seem to be encouraging authors to use <article> as a content wrapper.
  989. # [23:51] * Quits: murr4y (n=murray@85.84-49-67.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  990. # [23:53] <Lachy> in the last paragraph of that section, what does it mean to have "... more than one section at the root of the outline."?
  991. # [23:54] <Lachy> is that like <body><section><h1>Heading Level 1</h1></section><section><h1>Another Level 1 Heading</h1></section></body>
  992. # [23:58] <Lachy> gsnedders, in your outliner, can you make it so that it gives some kind of indication about which element created the section? Especially in the case of "Untitled Section" sections.
  993. # [23:58] <Lachy> e.g. http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http://html5doctor.com/about/
  994. # [23:59] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-214-73-15.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  995. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Lachy: No, because I keep saying I'll do things and never have the time to do them.
  996. # Session Close: Fri Sep 11 00:00:00 2009

The end :)