/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Sep 20 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [10:59] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  5. # [10:59] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  6. # [10:59] * Set by annevk3 on Wed Sep 09 23:23:54
  7. # [11:07] <annevk2> maybe that's why the IETF folks don't like to reuse URL as term :)
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  11. # [11:42] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  12. # [11:42] * Set by annevk3 on Wed Sep 09 23:23:54
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  16. # [13:15] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  17. # [13:15] * Set by annevk3 on Wed Sep 09 23:23:54
  18. # [13:13] <krijnh> I know
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  23. # [15:15] * Set by annevk3 on Wed Sep 09 23:23:54
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  32. # [15:47] <annevk42> whoa, logs fail? :)
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  34. # [15:51] <krijnh> Yeyeah
  35. # [15:51] <krijnh> Seems to be working now again
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  37. # [15:52] <annevk2> all the conspiracy once again lost o_O
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  57. # [17:47] * masinter wonders what happened to the whatwg irc log from yesterday
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  60. # [17:48] <Dashiva> Quits: krijnh (n=krijnhoe@ktk.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  61. # [17:49] <Dashiva> That happened, over and over
  62. # [17:52] <annevk42> prolly someone with backups can help krijnh fix it if he wants to
  63. # [17:56] <Dashiva> All he has to do is ask :)
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  65. # [18:16] <krijn> *asks*
  66. # [18:16] <krijn> In fact, all you have to do is ask :)
  67. # [18:16] <krijn> I don't really read the logs
  68. # [18:38] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@67.188.0.62)
  69. # [18:38] <Steve^> The feedback from MS seems to be largely, "are you sure these are the right tags?"
  70. # [18:39] <Steve^> Which after years of discussion, whatwg could only ever answer yes without looking like idiots
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  72. # [18:48] <annevk42> good that we're not a single entity then :)
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  75. # [18:58] <masinter> you know, you'd do better if you took "are you sure these are the right tags?" to mean "these tags look wrong, why do you think they are right?"
  76. # [18:58] <masinter> sometimes people are, amazingly, trying to be polite
  77. # [18:59] <JoePeck> Any thoughts on why there is document.body but no document.head? Lots of developers append styles, etc to the head of a page and they waste time with getElementsByTagName('head'). Was this ever discussed before?
  78. # [19:05] <JoePeck> although it looks like "document.head" shows up in the WHATWG mailing list a few times
  79. # [19:07] <JoePeck> it doesn't show up in the IDL for document in the spec
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  82. # [19:22] <masinter> Steve: not everything in the spec is the result of years of discussion, is it?
  83. # [19:22] <Steve^> I couldn't say the age of anything
  84. # [19:25] <masinter> but you did, "Which after years of discussion, whatwg could only ever answer yes"
  85. # [19:26] <Steve^> I do know that some elements are of significant age, given mailing list posts I've seen
  86. # [19:27] <masinter> the elements Microsoft asked about?
  87. # [19:28] <Steve^> the section, article, nav, header, footer have been set for some time?
  88. # [19:28] <Steve^> The content models are the area of HTML5 I am most familiar with
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  90. # [19:29] <Steve^> as I see the greatest value coming from them
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  92. # [19:31] <hsivonen> masinter: section, article, nav and footer have been around for a relatively long time
  93. # [19:37] <masinter> if new elements from HTML4 are puzzling to MS, then some justification or pointers to the discussions about them seem like they would be useful. Just saying "these have been here for years" isn't very helpful.
  94. # [19:38] <Steve^> I disagree somewhat. If the wg has no problem with them for a substantial amount of time, what gives MS the right to come along towards the end of the drafting stage and use its commercial power to try and change things?
  95. # [19:41] <Steve^> I can't find a proper reference to @cite in the spec. It is mentioned and exampled, but only within the q element. It is not clear it can be used on section and other elements
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  97. # [19:45] <Steve^> Infact, the spec says it cannot be. Only MS's example suggests otherwise
  98. # [19:47] <erlehmann> masinter, ms hasn't really tried to get involved in the process, not even in blocking terms like apple :i
  99. # [19:48] <masinter> if you throw away all the organizational politics, the question is: are these good, justified additions to HTML
  100. # [19:48] <masinter> every new feature has an amazing implementation cost for all kinds of HTML interpreters
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  102. # [19:48] <masinter> i mean, if you care about all of the HTML implementations in the world and not just the WhatWG browsers or the "Major browsers"
  103. # [19:49] <Steve^> of course, but they don't have to implement it, just as many developers won't use the new features
  104. # [19:49] <masinter> so additions or changes to the language have a big cost -- even if Apple and WebKit and Mozilla and Opera and a few others have implemented
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  106. # [19:49] <masinter> no, not if you want to be a conforming implementation
  107. # [19:49] <Steve^> But by having an official specification with the options available, developers and UAs can use these features when possible
  108. # [19:50] <Steve^> I'm thinking of screenreaders interpreting nav. They might not, but from seeing things at standards.next, they need to
  109. # [19:50] <Steve^> It hits a user requirement right on the head
  110. # [19:50] <masinter> well, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HTML_editors
  111. # [19:50] <masinter> so here are a bunch of editors of HTML
  112. # [19:51] <masinter> every element you add is something that every editor needs to add if it's going to be a good HTML editor
  113. # [19:51] <Steve^> if a text editor finds that task difficult, they're doing something wrong
  114. # [19:52] <masinter> you think so?
  115. # [19:53] <Steve^> considering good text editors are designed to allow user-submitted language highlighting, then yes
  116. # [19:53] <masinter> these aren't all "text editors", some people actually try to build editors that know about the markup language they're editing
  117. # [19:53] <masinter> perhaps you're only familiar with text editing HTML?
  118. # [19:53] <masinter> but there's a long list of WYSIWYG editors there too
  119. # [19:53] <Steve^> are there any elements in particular you see being a problem?
  120. # [19:54] <masinter> i'm just commenting on why it would be good to take MS comments seriously, and not just dismiss them as "we've talked about these for years"
  121. # [19:55] <Steve^> At the same time, you need to make steps forwards
  122. # [19:56] <masinter> of course, it's just that there's a balance
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  132. # [20:20] <Philip`> Steve^: "If the wg has no problem with them for a substantial amount of time, ..." - that doesn't seem a very good argument - if somebody pointed out a serious problem or provided some new data, that should be taken fully into consideration even if nobody else noticed the issues for years
  133. # [20:20] <Steve^> sure, that's fine
  134. # [20:21] <Steve^> as long as they do that, rather than sound unsure
  135. # [20:23] <Philip`> Indeed, if they just say "I don't think this sounds like a good idea" then it's not actionable feedback, given that decisions supposedly aren't made on the basis of popularity at all
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  137. # [20:32] <erlehmann> masinter, what new exements are bothering you at all?
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  168. # [22:29] <annevk42> masinter, fwiw, I agree with you
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  170. # [22:31] <annevk42> masinter, I haven't followed that discussion closely enough as most discussions about semantics seem to turn into some bikeshed discussion that eats my time, but I thought I did see some replies that tried to justify why the elements where there
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  172. # [22:31] <annevk42> s/where/were/
  173. # [22:32] <Steve^> annevk2, they tried to? did they succeed?
  174. # [22:34] <annevk42> I don't think the thread concluded
  175. # [22:35] <annevk42> for the one I did follow Adrian said he'd follow up next week (regarding <keygen>)
  176. # [22:35] <annevk42> I believe he said they supported <video> and <audio>
  177. # [22:36] <annevk42> <dialog> actually got dropped in response to feedback and has been there for a long time too
  178. # [22:36] <annevk42> taking a fresh look at elements every couple of years is not a bad thing at all imo
  179. # [22:36] <annevk42> we did exactly the same thing with HTML4 elements and attributes
  180. # [22:37] <annevk42> it'd be a bit weird if we didn't allow the same scrutiny for additions
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  182. # [22:39] <masinter> well, it's some work, but the "differences from HTML4" document might be a good place to put whatever people have
  183. # [22:40] <masinter> i haven't looked closely at tool implementation impact
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  186. # [22:49] <annevk42> masinter, yeah, one day I should put a bit more effort into that doc than simply updating it along the same old tune the initial draft was based on
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  188. # [22:53] <Steve^> what HTML5 elements can the cite attribute be used on?
  189. # [22:54] <Hixie> same as html4, q, blockquote, ins, and del
  190. # [22:54] <Steve^> fair enough
  191. # [22:55] <Steve^> the guy from MS is crazy then
  192. # [22:55] <Hixie> it changed after they sent their feedback
  193. # [22:55] <Hixie> partiall in response to their feedback
  194. # [22:55] <Steve^> ahh
  195. # [22:56] <Steve^> nevermind then
  196. # [22:56] <gsnedders> bq! bq! don't forget bq!
  197. # [22:57] <gsnedders> (Opera uses some interface with the cite attribute in the DOM for bq)
  198. # [22:57] <Steve^> I feel there should be an alias for q called quote
  199. # [22:58] <gsnedders> (bq was in HTML 3, Opera is the only browser that does anything with it)
  200. # [22:58] <gsnedders> (Also, Opera's implementation is broken.)
  201. # [22:59] <Steve^> of all the elements in 4.5 of the spec, blockquote is the only one with a long name
  202. # [23:00] <Steve^> so that should be aliased to bq
  203. # [23:00] <da3d> I want a <bbq> tag :)
  204. # [23:00] <Steve^> :D
  205. # [23:00] <gsnedders> Steve^: Parsing differences in legacy UAs, and different styling.
  206. # [23:01] <Steve^> Is <summary> coming back?
  207. # [23:01] <Steve^> gsnedders, hmm?
  208. # [23:01] <Steve^> oh, bq is an actual element too?
  209. # [23:05] <Steve^> So HTML2 had blockquote, HTML3 has bq and now HTML5 has blockquote
  210. # [23:10] <Hixie> HTML3 was never more than a draft
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  213. # [23:11] <Philip`> HTML5 has never been more than a draft
  214. # [23:11] <Hixie> indeed
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  216. # [23:13] <masinter> the status of a document in some standards group is interesting, but a lot of people are confused about the names like 'a draft' or 'a standard' or 'a draft standard'
  217. # [23:14] <masinter> while the IETF and W3C names are confusing, the WhatWG names aren't better
  218. # [23:14] <Hixie> yeah
  219. # [23:14] <Hixie> we really should just move to an always-on mechanism
  220. # [23:14] <Hixie> instead of the snapshot mechanism
  221. # [23:14] <masinter> as far as differences go, there are 'differences with spec X' and then 'differences with implementations A, B, C'
  222. # [23:15] <masinter> i don't think always-on makes sense
  223. # [23:15] <masinter> very few organizations are willing to provide funding for always-on
  224. # [23:15] <Hixie> for a platform evolving like the web's, i think it's the practical reality anyway
  225. # [23:15] <masinter> because it means a continual support not just for products, but for specifications
  226. # [23:15] <Hixie> i'm happy to pay for the whatwg site out of pocket as i have so far
  227. # [23:15] <masinter> it's not the dollar cost, it's the personnel cost
  228. # [23:16] <Hixie> oh well we're paying that cost anyway in practice
  229. # [23:16] <masinter> it's better if products compete on their technology and not on control of the interfaces
  230. # [23:16] <Hixie> and whenever we've stopped paying that cost -- DOM3, HTML4 -- it's been a disaster that's cost us far more on the long run
  231. # [23:16] <Hixie> i should say, as after DOM3 and after HTML4
  232. # [23:17] <masinter> i think there are hundreds, thousands of industries which have a practice of infrequent upgrade of standards
  233. # [23:17] <Hixie> not DOM3 and HTML4 themselves
  234. # [23:17] <Hixie> sure, i'm just talking about HTML, the DOM, and CSS
  235. # [23:17] <Hixie> for most industries it obviously makes no sense to keep evolving the specs
  236. # [23:17] <Hixie> imagine what mess that would be for power sockets, e.g. :-)
  237. # [23:17] <masinter> there's no intrinsic reason why web standards should be completely different from almost every other distributed set of interfaces
  238. # [23:18] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@210-84-32-112.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  239. # [23:18] <Hixie> the difference is platforms vs individual features
  240. # [23:18] <masinter> or that keeping web standards up to date should require every organizaiton that wants to participate to dedicate multiple full-time resources ot tracking the interfaces
  241. # [23:18] <Hixie> the practical reality is that they have to already
  242. # [23:18] <masinter> the idea of a "platform" is an architectural vision
  243. # [23:18] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210.84.56.211) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  244. # [23:19] <masinter> I understand you have that opinion
  245. # [23:19] <masinter> but just saying that your opinion is the "practical reality" doesn't really help, especially when that view doesn't match most other industries and standards practices
  246. # [23:19] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  247. # [23:19] <Hixie> i'm only talking about this industry, not others
  248. # [23:19] <Hixie> i agree that it's not the case in other industries
  249. # [23:20] <Hixie> and that it should not be in most
  250. # [23:20] <masinter> so what industry is Apple in?
  251. # [23:20] <Steve^> I dislike always-on, I think vendors want to say they fully support HTML5 and compete in that fashion
  252. # [23:20] <Hixie> but it _is_ the case for software platforms, like windows, or mac, or the web
  253. # [23:20] <masinter> what industry is Google in?
  254. # [23:20] <Hixie> Steve^: they haven't historically
  255. # [23:20] <Steve^> By continually updating the spec, they may miss out features for longer periods
  256. # [23:20] <Hixie> masinter: both are in many industries
  257. # [23:20] <masinter> is Google in the Web industry, or is Google in the Internet service industry?
  258. # [23:20] <Hixie> Steve^: why?
  259. # [23:20] <Hixie> masinter: both, and many more
  260. # [23:21] <masinter> so if you make, say, a cell phone operating system
  261. # [23:21] <masinter> and as a product it implements some interfaces
  262. # [23:21] <Steve^> If I get lots of bits of homework, I don't do them in the order they arrive. Whereas you would need to do HTML 5 then 5.1 then 5.2, etc
  263. # [23:21] * Quits: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
  264. # [23:21] <masinter> some web, some voice over IP, some instant messaging, some calendaring, some geolocation, etc.
  265. # [23:21] <masinter> are you saying that all of those need "always on" standards activities to maintain compatibility between Nokia, Apple and Google?
  266. # [23:22] <masinter> or just the web ones?
  267. # [23:22] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  268. # [23:22] <Steve^> I suppose CSS shows that isn't how it works
  269. # [23:22] <masinter> i suppose I should add Opera
  270. # [23:22] <masinter> it's not clear what CSS "shows"
  271. # [23:23] <masinter> standards activities don't work well when the players don't agree to play
  272. # [23:23] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  273. # [23:23] <Hixie> Steve^: right now, browser vendors are continually adding new features from whatever the latest specs are that they want to support, ignoring the version numbers, and ignoring features they don't want to support
  274. # [23:24] <Hixie> masinter: just the web and other platforms. e.g. the iPhone platform, if it was a standard, would be one that i would not bother giving a version number to
  275. # [23:24] <Hixie> masinter: but the USB connector is a standard that makes sense to version
  276. # [23:25] <Hixie> masinter: because you don't want any variety on that connector for a period of many years
  277. # [23:25] <masinter> the word 'platform' is used with such variability that it's useful to be more precise about what you mean
  278. # [23:25] <Hixie> a set of APIs and other features on which applications and content can be based
  279. # [23:25] <masinter> that's not how i use the word
  280. # [23:26] <Hixie> some things, like connectors, provide value when they are ubiquitous and unchanging over time
  281. # [23:26] <masinter> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_%28computing%29
  282. # [23:26] <masinter> i dont like that too much either
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  284. # [23:27] <masinter> the usage that makes sense to me is one i read a long time ago: there are implementations, interfaces, and platforms
  285. # [23:27] <Hixie> others, like sets of APIs, derive value from offering the features their content and application providers need, and there is no need for the feature sets from different interpreters being in lock-step, so long as the common subset is interoperable
  286. # [23:27] <masinter> a language, protocol, API are all interfaces
  287. # [23:27] <masinter> HTML, URI, HTTP are all interfaces that are essential to the web "platform"
  288. # [23:27] <Hixie> so for the former, i think versioning is important, and for the latter, i think just continous improvement would be better
  289. # [23:28] <masinter> what distinguishes a platform from an interface is that a platform has multiple interfaces, any one of which can evolve independently of the other
  290. # [23:28] <masinter> you want interoperability across different implementations of individual interfaces
  291. # [23:29] <masinter> so that you can replace your HTTP server or your HTTP protocol stack on the client, without having to make sure it matches the other side of the client/server interface
  292. # [23:29] <Hixie> gotta go now, we're going to play TI3
  293. # [23:29] <masinter> it's easier to talk about versioning if we get straight about terminology
  294. # [23:29] <Hixie> bbl
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  296. # [23:31] <masinter> whether interface versions have version 'numbers' is a separate issue, but upgrading the interface is more costly and requires coordination, while upgrading the implementations without upgrading the interfaces doesn't
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The end :)