/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 26 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Rik`> i kind of doubt a source like http://trends.builtwith.com/
  4. # [00:01] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@66.134.141.179)
  5. # [00:01] <Rik`> I can't find a description of the process to gather such data
  6. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Well, it looks like they're only covering 3M sites, so I suppose we're mainly talking stuff you can access relatively easily with a spider.
  7. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> They do make very pretty pie charts, though, so obviously you can trust them.
  8. # [00:11] <Hixie> ok next participant
  9. # [00:11] <Hixie> this one apparently uses vim(1)
  10. # [00:11] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-74-170.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  11. # [00:11] <Hixie> which is promising
  12. # [00:11] <Philip`> Burn him/her!
  13. # [00:12] <Hixie> better than frontpage!
  14. # [00:12] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.116.178.241.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  15. # [00:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: do they bring their own laptop or .vimrc (or whatever the pref file is called)?
  16. # [00:13] * TabAtkins just uses a normal text editor.
  17. # [00:13] <Philip`> TabAtkins: 5% of pages in the dotnetdotcom sample have <script src="*jquery*">
  18. # [00:13] <Philip`> which is a long way from 20%
  19. # [00:13] <Philip`> (though still quite a lot)
  20. # [00:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: nah, we make them use some random text editor
  21. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Philip`, shrug.
  22. # [00:13] <Hixie> i forget what it's called
  23. # [00:13] <Hixie> TextEdit2 or something
  24. # [00:13] <hsivonen> I see
  25. # [00:14] <Philip`> TabAtkins: (and about 70% use <script src>)
  26. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> I just wish emacs didn't use elisp. I can't program in elisp.
  27. # [00:14] <Philip`> (regardless of value)
  28. # [00:14] <Hixie> apparently this participant has read some press articles about html5 and likes <header> because it means she doesn't have to use <div>s with class=""es anymore
  29. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Yay for intended consequences!
  30. # [00:20] <Hixie> she describes microdata as a simpler solution than xslt, which she called "annoying"
  31. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Smart participant.
  32. # [00:21] <Hixie> i'm not sure whether to be offended that she likened something i worked on to XSLT, or whether to be happy she called XSLT annoying unprompted, or...
  33. # [00:25] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-104-233.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  34. # [00:27] <Philip`> I think microdata is a simpler solution than an internal combustion engine, which is big and noisy
  35. # [00:28] <Philip`> Not sure they're solutions to the same problem, though
  36. # [00:29] <Hixie> well her point was that you would use microdata instead of writing the data in xml and translating it to HTML
  37. # [00:29] <Hixie> which isn't exactly right
  38. # [00:29] <Hixie> but could be right depending on exactly what she's doing
  39. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> The use of XSLT to transform a page into the embedded data, or vice versa, is the equivalent use.
  40. # [00:29] <Hixie> like if she's exposing XML and using XSLT to get data out
  41. # [00:29] <Hixie> yeah
  42. # [00:29] <Hixie> she's actually reading the documentation, i'm shocked
  43. # [00:30] <Hixie> clearly she's not representative of normal authors :-P
  44. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> With Microdata you'd just encode things then throw a generic parser, rather than building an XSLT script to pull the info out.
  45. # [00:31] <Hixie> wooo, she actually got as far as reading about itemfor="" and actually understood it!
  46. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Heh.
  47. # [00:31] <Hixie> she's doing vocabulary 001, and so far she's confused about the way item="" takes a type
  48. # [00:32] <annodomini> Yeah, that is kind of confusing.
  49. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> I think that confused me a bit, too.
  50. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Heh.
  51. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> That's 3 votes against, Hixie. ^_^
  52. # [00:32] <Hixie> yeah i think we're going to go with renaming item="" to itemtype="", make it optional, and use itemscope="" from proposal 003
  53. # [00:33] <Hixie> also maybe we'll change itemfor="" to just referring in the other direction
  54. # [00:33] <Hixie> like sicking suggested
  55. # [00:33] <Hixie> using <ref> or something
  56. # [00:33] <annodomini> Other direction? I missed this suggestion.
  57. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> sicking thinks' it's confusing that the stranded data uses @itemfor to point to its parent, rather than the parent pointing to the stranded data.
  58. # [00:34] <annodomini> Hmm. Interesting.
  59. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> s/its parent/its Microdata parent, as opposed to its DOM parent/
  60. # [00:34] <Hixie> instead of <div itemscope id=a></div> <span itemfor=a itemprop=name>value</span>
  61. # [00:34] <Hixie> we would have
  62. # [00:34] <Hixie> <div itemscope><itemref ref=b/></div> <span id=b itemprop=name>value</span>
  63. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> That would allow a single piece of data to be a part of multiple items. Is that intended?
  64. # [00:35] <Hixie> it would
  65. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> And would, in fact, bring back the full power of an DAG.
  66. # [00:35] <Hixie> i think that would be fine
  67. # [00:36] <Hixie> ROFL she complained about <i> being in the example
  68. # [00:36] <Hixie> "isn't that deprecated!"
  69. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Totally not a typical author. ^_^
  70. # [00:36] <annodomini> She sounds like she's pretty up on her standards...
  71. # [00:36] <Hixie> well except for <i> not being deprecated ever :-P
  72. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> If you can make a DAG, isn't the only thing left preventing Microdata from collapsing into RDF just the ability to make blank nodes or whatever?
  73. # [00:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you can make blank nodes today
  74. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Really?
  75. # [00:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: just don't include an "about" itemprop
  76. # [00:37] <Philip`> TabAtkins: There's also the lack of types
  77. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Oh.
  78. # [00:38] <Hixie> yeah no per-value data types is another difference
  79. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> k.
  80. # [00:38] <annodomini> I don't think that it's bad to increase the flexibility of what you can construct, as long as that complexity is not necessary for your average usecase.
  81. # [00:38] * drunknbass_work is now known as drunknbass_work|
  82. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> annodomini: Yeah, I'm not saying anything against it. I just think it's funny that this syntax is *just* below being equivalent to RDFa, and yet way easier to understand.
  83. # [00:39] * TabAtkins thinks that <itemref> may in fact be easier to understand after all.
  84. # [00:39] <Philip`> But maybe much more verbose for expressing certain graphs
  85. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Philip`, maybe. I'd need to see examples.
  86. # [00:39] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@66.134.141.179)
  87. # [00:40] <annodomini> A whole new element <itemref> just for linking items to their properties? What about <link href="#b"> instead?
  88. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Well, there's a certain benefit in maintaining the "item" prefix.
  89. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Hixie: If you're going to make @itemtype to hold the type, then I prefer just plain @item as the scope signal.
  90. # [00:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins: people seem to be confused with the item="" attribute
  91. # [00:44] * Quits: erikvvold (n=erikvvol@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  92. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> How much confusion is from @item itself, and how much from @item also acting as the type specifier?
  93. # [00:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins: and we have one data point (not enough) suggesting itemscope="" is clearer
  94. # [00:44] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-170-205-120.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  95. # [00:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins: well they got confused with it in both examples that had an item=""
  96. # [00:45] <Hixie> TabAtkins: so item="...id..." and item="...type..."
  97. # [00:45] <Hixie> both confused them
  98. # [00:45] * TabAtkins has to go look up what item="id" means again.
  99. # [00:45] <Hixie> that's variant 002
  100. # [00:45] <Hixie> equivalent of itemprop="about" in the spec
  101. # [00:46] <Hixie> equivalent of itemprop="itemid" in proposals 001 and 003
  102. # [00:46] <Hixie> (we found "about" confused the heck out of people)
  103. # [00:46] <Hixie> ("itemid" so far is faring better, though we don't have much data on that)
  104. # [00:46] <Hixie> hm, this participant is being confused by having itemprop="" values that are URLs
  105. # [00:47] <Hixie> she thinks they're links to the values, rather than unique property names
  106. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Yah, I think that's going to be inevitable some of the time.
  107. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Hmm, I can't find itemprop=about in the spec.
  108. # [00:52] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#md-about
  109. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Gotcha. That's hidden.
  110. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> And yeah, I can see how it would be confusing.
  111. # [00:53] <Hixie> everyone is making up their own property names
  112. # [00:54] <Hixie> despite us pointing them to a list of predefined vocabulary terms
  113. # [00:54] <Hixie> i guess that won't be such a problem if they just copy-paste from tutorials
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  117. # [01:06] * TabAtkins derives deep joy from crafting a tool that is really easy to use and useful.
  118. # [01:06] <Hixie> ooh, interesting. she prefers itemscope="" too.
  119. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Hmm.
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  160. # [03:23] <TabAtkins> OMG, home internet is finally back. This is the first time I've connected through my home router in very nearly exactly 14 days.
  161. # [03:23] <TabAtkins> (It would be exactly 14 days in about 20 minutes.)
  162. # [03:23] <beowulf> precision, we has it
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  283. # [08:44] <drunknbass> i just noticed i have an issue using Image()
  284. # [08:44] <drunknbass> seems my js moves on before the image() data is ready
  285. # [08:45] <drunknbass> is there a solution for that?. i didnt notice it because the images were getting cached :/
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  298. # [09:54] <hsivonen> having child point to parent assures treeness
  299. # [09:55] <hsivonen> ARIA does it the other way, whyc seems bad
  300. # [09:55] <hsivonen> (aria-owns)
  301. # [09:57] <hsivonen> s/whyc/which/
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  304. # [10:06] <drunknbass> how can i embed base64 and make an image out of it for canvas?
  305. # [10:24] <hsivonen> drunknbass: data URL
  306. # [10:24] <drunknbass> ?
  307. # [10:25] <drunknbass> now image.src?
  308. # [10:25] <drunknbass> not*
  309. # [10:25] <hsivonen> drunknbass: you can load the data: URL into image.src
  310. # [10:25] <drunknbass> any links?
  311. # [10:25] <drunknbass> everything i find doesnt work
  312. # [10:25] <drunknbass> and seems to be from b4 canvas
  313. # [10:26] <hsivonen> just http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2397.txt
  314. # [10:27] <drunknbass> ok how do i use this with image or drawImage?
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  316. # [10:27] * hsivonen notes "URL" in the title of that RFC
  317. # [10:28] <hsivonen> drunknbass: by using it as the URL of a new Image()
  318. # [10:29] <drunknbass> heh thx
  319. # [10:29] <drunknbass> i dunno why it wasnt working b4 but i changed single quotes to double and it works
  320. # [10:29] <drunknbass> lol
  321. # [10:30] <drunknbass> ahh it doesnt make a difference lol.. pre still wont show my images
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  323. # [10:31] <hsivonen> drunknbass: does Pre support data URLs?
  324. # [10:32] <drunknbass> haha i didnt look
  325. # [10:32] <hsivonen> drunknbass: does it pass Acid2?
  326. # [10:32] <drunknbass> i have a problem with my js running b4 my image is loaded
  327. # [10:32] <hsivonen> thought it could have only limited support like IE8
  328. # [10:32] <drunknbass> and even trying to use the onload for the image didnt help
  329. # [10:32] <drunknbass> i guess ill sort it out later..
  330. # [10:33] <hsivonen> drunknbass: does what I said work for you in Firefox/Opera/Safari/Chrome, though?
  331. # [10:33] <drunknbass> yup
  332. # [10:33] <drunknbass> i actually had that before without the header
  333. # [10:33] <hsivonen> ok. good
  334. # [10:34] <drunknbass> when i added the header it gave me ilgal char errors but it was because i was using single quotes around the string
  335. # [10:34] <drunknbass> so after i changed to regular quotes and left the header in, it worked
  336. # [10:34] <drunknbass> but images still dont work on pre which was what i was trying to fix
  337. # [10:35] <drunknbass> i think i read something about the images needing to be loaded locally or something.. like from within the app bundle..
  338. # [10:36] <drunknbass> i also get my context sizes displaying wrong in webos so i think the pre webkit is just really messed up
  339. # [10:37] * jgraham wakes up , finds he has 99 new messages filtered to es-discuss, sighs
  340. # [10:38] <jgraham> (That is less than 99 messages total because I get all the IDL mesages twice but the filters aren't bright enough to sort one copy to es-discuss and one copy to public-html)
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  349. # [11:08] <Philip`> drunknbass: Use image.onload to run some code once the image has loaded, or check image.complete to see if it's loaded yet, perhaps
  350. # [11:11] <drunknbass> oh i didnt know about complete
  351. # [11:11] <drunknbass> thx
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  357. # [12:04] <Philip`> Has reCAPTCHA recently become awful?
  358. # [12:05] <Philip`> I seem to get <50% success rate, despite being certain I'm entering the words correctly
  359. # [12:05] <Philip`> and I don't remember that much of a problem in the past
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  361. # [12:18] <takkaria> it's what happens when Google buys things
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  364. # [12:24] <Philip`> Oh, Google bought reCAPTCHA?
  365. # [12:24] * Philip` never heard about that
  366. # [12:26] <Philip`> I'll blame Google, then
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  374. # [13:41] <remysharp> I've got a question about Web Workers - is this the right place to ask?
  375. # [13:44] <jgraham> remysharp: It's as good a place as any
  376. # [13:45] <remysharp> is there a way/flag to tell if a worker has been terminated?
  377. # [13:45] <remysharp> I can see the "closed" flag being referenced in the spec
  378. # [13:45] <remysharp> but I can't tell if it's new since FF + Safari have implemented workers
  379. # [13:45] <remysharp> i.e. I've dumped a worker variable out to Firebug and I can't see any state flags or any way to tell
  380. # [13:46] <jgraham> (Unrelated to workers) is the "Loop:" label in the "A start tag whose tag name is "li"" section of the "in body" phase of parsing on the wrong step?
  381. # [13:47] <jgraham> Otherwise why do you keep looking for a node but never do anything with it
  382. # [13:47] <jgraham> (I guess it should match the "dt" + etc. case below
  383. # [13:47] <jgraham> )
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  389. # [14:28] <Sephi-Chan> Hi
  390. # [14:29] <Sephi-Chan> I created a very simple page with HTML5 Doctype, to try embeded SVG, but it doesn't seem to work (in FF3.5 and Safari 4, both on Mac)
  391. # [14:29] <Sephi-Chan> http://pastebin.com/d709d385f
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  399. # [14:43] <Sephi-Chan> Someone can explain me how to embed SVG in my HTML5 page plz ?
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  401. # [14:44] <Sephi-Chan> Everything i try doesnt work :/
  402. # [14:46] <da3d> Sephi-Chan: You need a nightly build of Firefox, and you need to enable the html5 parser in it.
  403. # [14:46] <Sephi-Chan> Oh :(
  404. # [14:46] <Sephi-Chan> So bad, i believed it was more accessible
  405. # [14:47] <masinter> the status of SVG in HTML5 is pretty fuzzy to me, isn't it in flux?
  406. # [14:47] <masinter> my impression is that the battle isn't over, you might get a different answer here tho
  407. # [14:47] <da3d> It will be, eventually, just need to wait for the browsers to be updated to support it.
  408. # [14:48] <masinter> isn't it still an ISSUE?
  409. # [14:49] <Sephi-Chan> Do you have an idea of the time for it to be available in Safari/Firefox ? Is this time in days ? weaks ? or months ? :x
  410. # [14:49] <da3d> masinter: I dunno, not really paying that much attention to it.
  411. # [14:50] <Sephi-Chan> i'm working on a webgame and i currently create a SVG map (using Raphael, to provide content for IE) and i ask for myself if using edge stuff like HTML5 is a good choice
  412. # [14:51] <masinter> sephi-chan: you know what they say about the Opera
  413. # [14:52] <masinter> sephi-chan: lots of people run IE6, and can't upgrade. do you want your game to work for them?
  414. # [14:53] <Sephi-Chan> I don't really care about IE6 and IE in general
  415. # [14:53] <Sephi-Chan> If i can support them, it's a plus
  416. # [14:54] <da3d> Sephi-Chan: No clue when Mozilla and Apple will enable SVG-in-html5 by default.
  417. # [14:55] <da3d> As for using html5... well, some of it is easily usable now (eg most new elements) or can be emulated using scripts. Some of it (eg svg-in-html5) will have to wait for newer browser versions.
  418. # [14:56] <masinter> well, wasn't the google chrome supposed to make HTML5 available for IE users? not sure if that applies to IE6 though
  419. # [14:58] * masinter finds http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/
  420. # [14:59] <masinter> "SVG support is now included in the latest version of Mozilla Firefox! "
  421. # [14:59] <Sephi-Chan> Uh :o
  422. # [14:59] <masinter> use the net, duke
  423. # [15:00] <da3d> There's a difference between supporting SVG and supporting SVG markup in html5 documents :p
  424. # [15:00] <masinter> what?
  425. # [15:01] <Sephi-Chan> Try to use embed svg in HTML (event with HTML5 doctype) and you will see that it's not supported
  426. # [15:01] <masinter> I don't get it, HTML5 is backward compatible! how can there be things that work now that will break when moving to HTML5?
  427. # [15:02] <Sephi-Chan> Uh ? How do you embed SVG now ?
  428. # [15:03] <da3d> Everyone (except IE) supports SVG using <object> or <img> (or inside the documents served as xhtml). Using SVG markup in html has never been supported before, that's the new part.
  429. # [15:03] <Philip`> The only change in HTML5 is that the text/html parser supports SVG elements
  430. # [15:03] <Philip`> (which is only implemented in experimental Firefoxes)
  431. # [15:03] <Philip`> You can always use proper XHTML, or create the SVG elements through the DOM (createElement etc)
  432. # [15:04] <Philip`> which will work in every browser
  433. # [15:04] <Philip`> (except IE obviously)
  434. # [15:04] <Philip`> or use <object> as da3d says
  435. # [15:04] <Philip`> (I think most browsers don't support SVG in <img> - maybe only Opera?)
  436. # [15:05] <da3d> Doesn't Webkit support svg in <img>, or am I misremembering?
  437. # [15:05] <Sephi-Chan> Uhuh
  438. # [15:05] * masinter finds http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/embed.htm#svg
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  440. # [15:05] <Philip`> I know it supports stuff like PDF in <img>, but I'm not sure about SVG
  441. # [15:06] <masinter> pdf in img doesn't sound right
  442. # [15:07] <da3d> http://support.apple.com/kb/TA25197 says "Adds support for SVG images in <img> elements and CSS images"
  443. # [15:07] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/svg/scale.html
  444. # [15:07] <Philip`> Top-left is an SVG in <img>
  445. # [15:08] <Philip`> Seems to work in Opera (10) and Chromium (don't have Safari easily available)
  446. # [15:08] <Philip`> Doesn't work in Firefox
  447. # [15:08] <Philip`> (3.5)
  448. # [15:08] <Sephi-Chan> With Safari 4/Mac
  449. # [15:09] <Philip`> (Top-right image is the SVG scaled onto a <canvas> - Opera seems to do bitmap scaling, Chromium does vector scaling)
  450. # [15:09] <Sephi-Chan> i see a page with a bend corner and fiew code
  451. # [15:09] <Sephi-Chan> with the SVG logo
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  454. # [15:10] <jgraham> Yeah. SVG in text/html is currently rather experimental. If you need HTML with inline SVG markup you have to use XHTML until HTML5 parsers are widely deployed
  455. # [15:11] <jgraham> (or use SVG as the root element and put XHTML in foreignContent I guess)
  456. # [15:11] <jgraham> So in summary: sorry :(
  457. # [15:11] <Sephi-Chan> Hmm
  458. # [15:12] <Sephi-Chan> In my case, SVG is used to draw a map (like in the board game Risk)
  459. # [15:12] <Sephi-Chan> My backend is made with Ruby on Rails, maybe i can use it to serve SVG
  460. # [15:13] <Sephi-Chan> With its nice RESTful API, maybe i can do example.com/maps/1.svg
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  462. # [15:14] <Sephi-Chan> I think it's okay to use the SVG in a object with the good type
  463. # [15:14] <Sephi-Chan> No ?
  464. # [15:14] <jgraham> It is wuite possible that you don't need the SVG to be inline
  465. # [15:14] <jgraham> If you cn put it in an external file and then load that somehow everything will be hunky-dory
  466. # [15:15] <Sephi-Chan> hunky-dory ? I don't understand that :x (french inside)
  467. # [15:17] <da3d> Using SVG with <object> seems to be the most compatible, since it's supported everywhere except IE.
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  469. # [15:20] <Sephi-Chan> And for IE ? What is the best way ?
  470. # [15:21] <da3d> Chrome Frame or some SVG plugin (dunno how well those work or how many there are though), I suppose?
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  543. # [20:35] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
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  546. # [20:40] * Lachy is excited!
  547. # [20:40] <Lachy> I just came up with a brilliant and most simple solution to the issues with Selectors API
  548. # [20:40] * Lachy goes to spec it...
  549. # [20:41] <Steve^> talk about a cliff hanger
  550. # [20:42] <Lachy> I want it to be a surprise. :-)
  551. # [20:42] <Steve^> most likely I'll forget and never know
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  555. # [20:50] <Philip`> I just came up with a brilliant and most simple solution to world peace!
  556. # [20:50] <Philip`> I'll write it down somewhere in a while
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  558. # [20:52] <Lachy> haha
  559. # [20:52] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
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  561. # [20:53] <Steve^> Lachy, just don't do a Fermat
  562. # [20:53] <Lachy> what's a Fermat?
  563. # [20:53] * gsnedders faceplams
  564. # [20:53] <Steve^> Fermat was a mathematician
  565. # [20:53] <gsnedders> Lachy: Go learn your mathematicians!
  566. # [20:54] <Steve^> who wrote in the sidebar of his noteback that some property of maths could be solved with some awesome technique he came up with
  567. # [20:54] <Steve^> then he died before writing it down properly
  568. # [20:54] <Lachy> heh
  569. # [20:54] <Lachy> it's ok, I have it specced already
  570. # [20:54] <gsnedders> No, in the margin of some other spec.
  571. # [20:55] <gsnedders> s/spec/book/
  572. # [20:55] <Steve^> and it became a huge challenge for other people to prove, they managed recently but it was brutally hard (and not his solution)
  573. # [20:55] <Lachy> well, minor a few technical details about the algorithm. But the concept is sound
  574. # [20:55] <gsnedders> You're confusing me
  575. # [20:55] <gsnedders> He wrote it in 1637, proved in 1995.
  576. # [20:55] <gsnedders> Fermat had proof when he wrote it, just never written down.
  577. # [20:55] <Steve^> *thought he had a proof
  578. # [20:55] <Philip`> I think the general consensus is that he was wrong
  579. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Well, yeah.
  580. # [20:56] <Philip`> rather than that he was cleverer than four centuries of mathematicians
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  597. # [22:36] <Lachy> I checked in the new and improved solution for selectors api. http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api2/
  598. # [22:37] <Lachy> the major changes have to do with the definition of "scoped selector string" and the ways in which that affects processing.
  599. # [22:39] <Steve^> how can something be both new and improved?
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  678. # [22:53] <Lachy> Steve^, it's a new technique that is an improvement over the old technique
  679. # [22:53] <Steve^> that's what you meant, yes
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  682. # [23:24] <jgraham> /me wonders if/why "<p><b></p> <p>Y" should parse differently to "<p><b></p>X<p>Y"
  683. # [23:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: ^
  684. # [23:25] <jgraham> It seems to me that the active formatting elements should be reconstructed on either the space or the X but there are tests that suggest it doesn't happen with the space
  685. # [23:25] <Hixie> i think that changed at some point
  686. # [23:27] <jgraham> OK, I couldn't obviously see a relevant commit message
  687. # [23:32] <Hixie> if you have the time, try archeology for the line "A character token" a the top of the in-body insertion mode
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  695. # [23:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: is my code out of date on that point?
  696. # [23:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well the HTML5 live DOM viewer disagrees with html5lib but agrees with the tests
  697. # [23:47] <jgraham> But I *think* html5lib agrees with the spec
  698. # [23:47] <hsivonen> I see
  699. # [23:47] <jgraham> Unless there is a special case I am missing somewhere
  700. # [23:47] <jgraham> (which is quite likely)
  701. # [23:48] <hsivonen> I thought I'd written code that makes both space and other characters follow the same path in "in body"
  702. # [23:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: You have any thoughts about how to make the tokenizer tests JSON, like the docs claim?
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  704. # [23:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: Is the HTML5 live dom viewer up to date at this point?
  705. # [23:49] <hsivonen> gsnedders: do you mean surrogates?
  706. # [23:49] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I was thinking adding in a second form of escaping above JSON, so you can do things like U00D7FF to refer to U+D7FF (which can't occur in JSON)
  707. # [23:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's not up to spec
  708. # [23:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: at least </li> has changed
  709. # [23:50] <jgraham> hsivonen: Is it significantly older than the version in gecko?
  710. # [23:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: and end tags before <html>
  711. # [23:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: no
  712. # [23:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yes, and anything else that can't be represented
  713. # [23:51] <hsivonen> the only change that's in Gecko but not in the Live viewer is that Gecko no longer clones nodes
  714. # [23:51] <gsnedders> What makes \uD7FF illegal in JSON?
  715. # [23:51] <hsivonen> (that fix was long overdue)
  716. # [23:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: no, I don't know what to do about that
  717. # [23:52] <hsivonen> did JSON fall into the same trap as XML and outlaw characters according to someone's sense of Unicode aesthetics?
  718. # [23:52] * jgraham optimistically changes the tests locally
  719. # [23:52] <gsnedders> JSON didn't, but to make it a subset of ECMAScript it has to be.
  720. # [23:53] <gsnedders> We can't run the html5lib tests on Ruby at all because of it
  721. # [23:53] <jgraham> With that change we are down to 2 errors, 2 failures
  722. # [23:53] <hsivonen> gsnedders: :-(
  723. # [23:53] <hsivonen> having to create another escaping layer on top of JSON would suck
  724. # [23:54] <jgraham> The ruby port is somewhat dead in the water
  725. # [23:54] <gsnedders> I see no alternative though :(
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  727. # [23:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: I want to do some stuff with it in the near future
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  729. # [23:54] <jgraham> (but this problem really needs to be fixed)
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  731. # [23:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Good luck with that
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  733. # [23:55] <gsnedders> But yeah, I really want to get the tests running before I do anything
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  736. # Session Close: Sun Sep 27 00:00:00 2009

The end :)