/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-09-28 / end

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1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 28 00:00:00 2009
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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4. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> jgraham, awesome catch.
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28. # [02:26] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you tell me: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
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45. # [03:35] <johnnyk> I have a question about HTML 5 <video> - For some reason I can play videos by direct URL, but they do not play when embedded in the <video> tag. I'm using Fx 3.5...
46. # [03:36] <johnnyk> It's sort of strange, I have never come across anything exactly like this before...
47. # [03:36] <inimino> what does "embedded in the <video> tag" mean specifically?
48. # [03:36] <johnnyk> <video src="URL">
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51. # [03:37] <johnnyk> I know that src is referencing the right file, because if I (in Firefox) right click the video element and click "View Video", the video is downloaded just fine...
52. # [03:37] <mpilgrim> reading the backscroll from the weekend
53. # [03:37] <mpilgrim> sorry i missed the lively chat about content sniffing
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55. # [03:38] <doublec> johnnyk, is the video an Ogg Theora video? Is it being served with the correct mime type?
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57. # [03:39] <johnnyk> doublec - It is ogg Theora, with ogv extension. How can I know if it is being served with the correct mime type?
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59. # [03:39] <doublec> look at the HTTP headers
60. # [03:39] <doublec> maybe try: wget -S url.ogv
61. # [03:39] <johnnyk> cool, I'll try...
62. # [03:39] <doublec> and look for the Content-Type header
63. # [03:40] <mpilgrim> is there a reference implementation of the proposed content sniffing algorithm?
64. # [03:40] <johnnyk> Content-Type: text/plain :-(
65. # [03:40] <johnnyk> But I guess that's my answer...
66. # [03:40] <doublec> yep
67. # [03:40] <doublec> do you control the server?
68. # [03:41] <johnnyk> Why is it being served up like that? I've had this happen on multiple hosts, right now on XAMPP
69. # [03:41] <johnnyk> I'm using XAMPP right now, so yes
70. # [03:41] <doublec> what is xampp?
71. # [03:41] <johnnyk> Just a little program to run a server on localhost
72. # [03:41] <johnnyk> For testing purposes, etc
73. # [03:42] <johnnyk> I guess it's not limited to that, but yeah
74. # [03:44] <miketaylr> so Modernizr is telling me that the latest webkit supports type=color, which is cool.
75. # [03:45] <miketaylr> anyone know if its going to get any native chrome/ui?
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77. # [03:45] <aspireonescs> thats the mac version of WAMP right johnnyk?
78. # [03:46] <tkent> miketaylr: it's not have any fancy UI. Just a text field with type validation.
79. # [03:46] <johnnyk> Nope, Linux. Thanks for the help by the way
80. # [03:46] <miketaylr> tkent: ok, thanks.
81. # [03:46] <johnnyk> Actually
82. # [03:46] <aspireonescs> ah
83. # [03:46] <miketaylr> i s'pose i can make my own fancy ui. ;)
84. # [03:46] <johnnyk> I see what you mean now. Yes. XAMPP is the generic name. When installed on Linux it is called LAMPP, Windows is WAMPP, etc
85. # [03:47] <aspireonescs> ah ya i use WAMP
86. # [03:47] <jt6195> me too
87. # [03:47] <johnnyk> Yup yup, pretty much the same thing.
88. # [03:47] <doublec> johnnyk, you should be able to configure apache to serve the correct mime type
89. # [03:47] <doublec> http://en.flossmanuals.net/TheoraCookbook/MyHosting
90. # [03:47] <doublec> explains how
91. # [03:47] <aspireonescs> ya it makes installing/configing a web server esasy
92. # [03:48] <johnnyk> cool stuff. Thanks alot for all the help doublec and aspireonescs
93. # [03:48] <doublec> np
94. # [03:51] <johnnyk> doublec - Worked like a charm. Sorry if this isn't typically a venue for questions, which is becoming apparent by the other conversaitons going on. :-) But anyway, thanks again for the tip!
95. # [03:51] <doublec> no worries, glad it helped
96. # [03:52] <mpilgrim> i searched for 'mime sniff barth python' and came up empty
97. # [03:52] <mpilgrim> or rather, i came up with a link to my own writing in the top 3 results
98. # [03:52] <mpilgrim> which is never a good sign when you're looking for something you know you haven't written yet
99. # [03:53] <roc> every so often I search for answers to some technical question and find my own posts about it in the top hits
100. # [03:53] <roc> that is always depressing
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103. # [03:56] <mpilgrim> i would also love to know if there are any test cases built around http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-01
104. # [03:56] <mpilgrim> or if i need to write those too
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164. # [07:45] <heycam> hsivonen, ping?
165. # [07:46] <hsivonen> heycam: pong
166. # [07:46] <heycam> hi. i was just wondering if you have an online version of the validator that does the foreign content stuff.
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168. # [07:47] <hsivonen> heycam: in text/html? The parser does but the HTML5 schema doesn't yet
169. # [07:47] <heycam> hsivonen, yeah
170. # [07:47] <heycam> oh ok
171. # [07:47] <heycam> so i was just trying an example with the live dom viewer, and it gave some unexpected behaviour
172. # [07:48] <heycam> wanted to check if it was valid
173. # [07:48] <hsivonen> what was the unexpected behavior?
174. # [07:48] <heycam> i'll get a link
175. # [07:49] <heycam> http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Ctable%3E%0A%20%20%3Ctr%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctd%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Csvg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3CforeignObject%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Ctable%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Ctd%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Ftable%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2FforeignObject%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fsvg%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctd%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20Hi%0A%20%20%3C%2Ft
176. # [07:49] <heycam> r%3E%0A%3C%2Ftable%3E%0Athere
177. # [07:49] <heycam> apologies for the bonus whitespace
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179. # [07:49] <heycam> actually that might've got cut off
180. # [07:49] <heycam> http://bit.ly/HtImi
181. # [07:50] <heycam> i was surprised that the third <td> start tag didn't create a third <td> element
182. # [07:51] <heycam> i wondered how the parser was handling nested foreign/html/foreign/etc. content with respect to the secondary insertion mode
183. # [07:51] <heycam> since it seems to be just a single variable, and not a stack
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185. # [07:51] <heycam> do you know if that fragment should be valid?
186. # [07:51] <hsivonen> I'm surprised "Hi" didn't get foster-parented above the table
187. # [07:51] <heycam> why are you not surprised the third <td> didn't create a second <td> in the outer table?
188. # [07:52] <hsivonen> heycam: actually, I whould be surprised about that first.
189. # [07:52] <hsivonen> looks like a bug
190. # [07:52] <heycam> :)
191. # [07:52] <hsivonen> heycam: thanks
192. # [07:52] <heycam> so i don't know if the secondary insertion mode needs to become a stack of insertion modes
193. # [07:53] <heycam> or if it needs to "reset the insertion mode appropriately" or whatever it is where it guesses the insertion mode based on the current state of the open tag stack
194. # [07:53] <mpilgrim> hixie: yt?
195. # [07:53] <mpilgrim> i'm trying to implement http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-01
196. # [07:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: ^ See what heycam says
197. # [07:54] <mpilgrim> section 4 "text or binary" algorithm, step 5, says:
198. # [07:54] <mpilgrim> "If the first bytes of the resource match one of the byte sequences in the "pattern" column of the table in the unknown type section below, ignoring any rows whose cell in the "security" column says "scriptable" (or "n/a"), then the /sniffed type/ of the resource is the type given in the corresponding cell in the "sniffed type" column on that row; abort these steps."
199. # [07:54] <mpilgrim> this line is incredibly unclear (to me)
200. # [07:55] <heycam> hsivonen, i'm wondering if this problem also manifests itself when the insertion mode just before entering foreign content is something else special
201. # [07:55] <heycam> as in, things that aren't just "in body" and do funny parsing things
202. # [07:55] <mpilgrim> first of all, do i ignore or not-ignore rows whose "security" column is "n/a"?
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205. # [07:56] <mpilgrim> second of all, do i apply the mask given in the first column?
206. # [07:56] <mpilgrim> hmm
207. # [07:56] <mpilgrim> maybe it doesn't matter, because i think all the "safe" patterns have masks consisting entirely of FF bytes
208. # [07:56] <hsivonen> heycam: very likely
209. # [07:57] <mpilgrim> and thus irrelevant whether i apply the mask or not
210. # [07:57] <mpilgrim> but still, quite a confusing sentence, and subject to potentially strange bugs if a "safe" pattern is ever added with a non-FF mask
211. # [07:58] <heycam> hsivonen, we'll be discussing svg in html stuff at our f2f tomorrow, so i'm just preparing a summary
212. # [07:58] <heycam> i'll file a bug about this unexpected parser behaviour after tomorrow if it's not fixed by then :)
213. # [07:58] <heycam> (that kinda sounds like a threat, though it's not meant to be :))
214. # [07:58] <mpilgrim> it would be clearer to simply duplicate the relevant information (a list of "safe" patterns and their corresponding sniffed types) in section 4
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218. # [08:16] <hsivonen> heycam: it's possible that it's my bug and not Hixie's, because I implement "in foreign" as a flag. When it is set, the usual mode variable is treated as the "secondary" mode.
219. # [08:16] <hsivonen> I suspect it's Hixie's bug, though
220. # [08:16] <heycam> hsivonen, i see. i think that's equivalent to what's in the spec, yeah.
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225. # [08:34] <drunknbass> anyone use github?
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228. # [09:00] <Hixie> regarding the variety of earlier comments, no idea off hand
229. # [09:01] <Hixie> file a bug
230. # [09:01] <Hixie> send e-mail
231. # [09:01] <Hixie> i'll get to it when i'm awake sometime
232. # [09:02] <boblet> I wish the note on <section> use (“not a generic container element”) had an id so I could link to it directly
233. # [09:03] <boblet> @adactio was right re: <section>/<article> confusion in the trenches
234. # [09:04] <Hixie> file a bug and i'll add an id when i next go through the bugs
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240. # [09:25] <boblet> Hixie: thanks. would that be enhancement or trivial?
241. # [09:25] <Hixie> doesn't matter i ignore everything but the comments
242. # [09:28] <boblet> k
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247. # [09:44] <jgraham> FWIW html5lib gives the same parsetree as the validator.nu parser
248. # [09:45] * jgraham always wants to call it parser.nu
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258. # [10:34] * Philip` thinks we need to replace URLs with BOBLs, as the address of a bag of bits
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260. # [10:36] * jgraham could subscribe to that if we can bacronym the full word BOBBLE somehow
261. # [10:37] <hsivonen> I hate it how Paypal poisons Firefox's password autofill
262. # [10:38] <hsivonen> surely Firefox should be better at telling if I've hit a phishing site than I am
263. # [10:38] <hsivonen> in the world of IDNA spoofs
264. # [10:38] * Quits: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
265. # [10:38] <hsivonen> seems like a very bad idea to let me figure out if a merchant sent me to the real Paypal or to a fake Paypal
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268. # [10:42] <Philip`> jgraham: The idea is to pronounce it that way, without needing to make all the letters explicit
269. # [10:42] <Philip`> like GRDDL
270. # [10:43] <Philip`> or, um, any other example
271. # [10:43] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah, but I really want it to have all the letters
272. # [10:43] * Philip` can't think of any :-(
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274. # [10:44] <jgraham> I guess terribe, tortured acronyms (with accurate spelling) can't be the sole preserve of the astrophyics community
275. # [10:45] * hsivonen was ignorant enough to learn the etymology of "quasar" only this past weekend
276. # [10:46] <Philip`> I suppose it could be a Bag Of Bits Binary Locator Endpoint
277. # [10:46] * hsivonen notes that TED talks given by British astrophysicists show a different attitude than the talks by the usual TED gurus
278. # [10:49] <Philip`> The world would be a more interesting place if physics projects were given funding proportional to the Scrabble score of their acronym (with the requirement that it's a real word, and expands to an acceptable phrase)
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280. # [10:57] <jgraham> hsivonen: Who was talking? (and how was the attitude different?)
281. # [11:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: David Deutsch and Martin Rees
282. # [11:01] * jgraham guesses Martin Rees would be one of them
283. # [11:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: they seemed to be pretty convinced about the accuracy of very macro (universe scale) explanations while others tend to find doubt in conventional micro (earth-level) explanations
284. # [11:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: also, the reaction to global warming wasn't let's go prevent it but it was probably too late to prevent it before anyone noticed it, let's go adapt to it
285. # [11:03] <hsivonen> and they seem to think on different timescales than the others
286. # [11:05] <jgraham> The timescales thing is easy to believe when you work in a field where one end of the important timescales range is 10^10 years
287. # [11:05] <jgraham> s/when you/since they/
288. # [11:09] <jgraham> Also, it is quite possible to believe in the macro-level universe stuff being right without the earth-scale stuff being right because the universe is, in some sense, simpler than the sum of its parts
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290. # [11:10] <Philip`> Global warming has had a huge and immediate effect - just look at a graph of temperature in the region of space where the Earth is, which started at approximately 3K and then suddenly shot up to over 290K
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293. # [11:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm not suggesting it's illogical. Just that their attitude feels different compared to the others.
294. # [11:12] <jgraham> hsivonen: I didn't mean to imply that you were
295. # [11:12] <othermaciej> physics has a track record of making some impressive quantitative predictions
296. # [11:13] <othermaciej> but a lot of complicated interactions can't really be worked out from physics first principles, either due to computational intractability, or chaotic behavior
297. # [11:13] <Philip`> It hasn't predicted anything more than a few hundred years in the future, though
298. # [11:13] <Philip`> s/predicted/successfully and confirmedly predicted/
299. # [11:14] <othermaciej> sure it has, people do experiments every day that confirm predictions from theories over 100 years old
300. # [11:14] <jgraham> othermaciej: Sure, which is part of why the universe is simpler that the sum of its parts. Because it turns out that at sufficently large scales a lot more problems are somewhat tractable
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302. # [11:14] <Philip`> By "a few hundred", I was only being accurate to an order of magnitude
303. # [11:14] <othermaciej> jgraham: yeah, it's easier to compute orbits than to compute the full chemistry of a living system
304. # [11:15] <jgraham> Philip`: It has also successfully predicted things more than a few hundred years in the past
305. # [11:15] <Philip`> Predicting the past is easy :-p
306. # [11:15] <jgraham> Philip`: Not if you weren't there when it happened :)
307. # [11:15] <Philip`> I suppose it's more like postdiction
308. # [11:16] <jgraham> (it is just as hard to predict the position of the plantes in the solar system a million years in the past as a million years in the future)
309. # [11:16] <othermaciej> Newtonian mechanics made a lot of predictions that are accurate today to a remarkable degree, fare more so than any quantitative predictions made by economics
310. # [11:17] <hsivonen> maybe physicists have less of an agenda than, say, the Chicago School
311. # [11:17] <othermaciej> (not to pick on economics - I like it as a field - but it's not very good at predicting anything at more than a very general qualitative level)
312. # [11:17] <Philip`> I still think we should wait a few billion years before judging whether physics successfully models our world
313. # [11:18] <Philip`> just to be extra certain
314. # [11:18] <othermaciej> economics does tend to get tied into politics, and sometimes that leads to theories with predictions that aren't even qualitatively right, e.g. Marxism
315. # [11:19] <othermaciej> even so, economics is a lot more successful at telling us useful information about society than other social sciences
316. # [11:19] <jgraham> Economics has the (recognised) problem that the common fundamental assumptions in quantitative economics are basically wrong
317. # [11:20] <othermaciej> I'm pretty sure all physicists think that current physics does *not* completely and correctly model our world
318. # [11:20] <jgraham> All the stuff about ideal markets is a dangerously poor approximation to the real world
319. # [11:21] <othermaciej> not all economic models assume rational expecations
320. # [11:22] <jgraham> Sure, like I said it's a known problem that people are working on
321. # [11:22] <othermaciej> that said, microeconomics is much more successful than macro
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325. # [11:23] <othermaciej> despite arguably buying more thoroughly into rational expectations and other such assumptions
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331. # [11:42] * gsnedders guesses he ought to start thinking about what he's going to take to Sweden
332. # [11:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: Bibbi may be about to phone you
333. # [11:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: "may"
334. # [11:43] <jgraham> So, er, you might want to check I gave her the right number
335. # [11:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: My mob. number?
336. # [11:43] * gsnedders looks up his own number
337. # [11:44] <jgraham> Well she just asked for your phone number. I guess she is either going to phone you or leave your calling card in phone boxes arounf town
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339. # [11:45] * gsnedders also notes she has his phone number somewhere anyway
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341. # [11:57] * gsnedders blames BenMillard and Hixie for him sometimes signing emails "g" nowadays
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385. # [14:52] <hsivonen> sad. wikipedia put the space back
386. # [14:55] <jgraham> Heh. I like how "consistent with the specification" lost to "inconsistent with other specifications"
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389. # [15:00] <Philip`> That seems stupid
390. # [15:00] <Philip`> They ought to have used a *non-breaking* space
391. # [15:01] <Philip`> otherwise it will go all ugly when it wraps
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403. # [15:17] <Lachy> even though they put it back in the title, the first sentence in the article begins with "HTML5 is the next major revision...", with no space in it
404. # [15:18] * hsivonen assumes that admins who perform moves don't also rewrite articles to match
405. # [15:18] <Lachy> anyway, I'm not too concerned. It really shouldn't matter whether it's spelled with or without the space
406. # [15:20] <Philip`> The http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/html5-epb.html definition of profile seems to conflict with http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/PER-xhtml11-20090507/conformance.html
407. # [15:20] <Philip`> and with content that uses version="-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" as suggested by that page
408. # [15:21] <Philip`> (such content making up 29 of ~425K page from dotnetdotcom)
409. # [15:22] <Philip`> (vs 30 with "XHTML+RDFa 1.0")
410. # [15:22] <Philip`> (and a handful of others)
411. # [15:22] <Philip`> s/profile/version/
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416. # [15:30] <mpilgrim> woohoo, i found a genuine bug in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-01
417. # [15:31] <annevk2> mpilgrim, btw, I think ref implementations might be Gecko/WebKit
418. # [15:31] <annevk2> abarth patches both
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420. # [15:31] <annevk2> (maybe they have the same bug)
421. # [15:32] <mpilgrim> the mask for the <H1 test is incorrect
422. # [15:32] <mpilgrim> it's listed as "FF FF DF DF"
423. # [15:32] <mpilgrim> but it should be "FF FF DF FF"
424. # [15:33] <hsivonen> review FTW!
425. # [15:33] <mpilgrim> test cases FTW
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427. # [15:33] <mpilgrim> annevk2: yeah, i figured that. i was hoping to find a standalone reference implementation
428. # [15:33] <mpilgrim> i couldn't find one, so i wrote one
429. # [15:33] <mpilgrim> with tests!
430. # [15:34] <annevk2> trying to be an angel? :p
431. # [15:34] <mpilgrim> :D
432. # [15:35] <mpilgrim> this came about in a discussion with jcgregorio, the author of httplib2
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434. # [15:36] <mpilgrim> httplib2 fetches resources and returns a dictionary of headers (as strings), and the body (as bytes)
435. # [15:37] <mpilgrim> to convert the body to a string, you need to know the encoding
436. # [15:37] <mpilgrim> to know the encoding, you need to know the content type
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438. # [15:37] <mpilgrim> (to know if it's even a text-based resource in the first place)
439. # [15:38] <mpilgrim> (and if so, you need to know how to find an inline encoding declaration)
440. # [15:39] <annevk2> you know that the full version of that for HTML resources depends on having a full HTML parser?
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442. # [15:39] <mpilgrim> i am aware of that too, yes
443. # [15:39] <annevk2> k
444. # [15:40] <mpilgrim> but someone has already written a full HTML parser
445. # [15:40] <mpilgrim> httplib2 does the fetching
446. # [15:40] <mpilgrim> html5lib does the HTML parsing
447. # [15:41] <mpilgrim> i needed the piece in the middle
448. # [15:41] <Philip`> Isn't the "<!DOCTYPE HTML" "Mask in Hex" one byte too short?
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450. # [15:41] <mpilgrim> Philip`: yes
451. # [15:42] <mpilgrim> two bugs!
452. # [15:42] <Philip`> Someone less lazy than me should report that
453. # [15:44] * Lachy is pondering what to do about the hasFeature() string in selectors api 2.
454. # [15:45] <Lachy> Should I leave it as only returning true if the version is "1.0", or should I perpetuate the myth that it's useful by requiring implementations that support v2 to return true for "2.0" as well.
455. # [15:45] <jgraham> This is getting increasingly insane
456. # [15:46] <annevk2> hober, when you remove spam on the wiki, do you also block the creator?
457. # [15:46] <annevk2> hobertoAtWork, ^^
458. # [15:47] * jgraham would like to think of a good way of making hasFeature break without breaking sites
459. # [15:47] <annevk2> Lachy, why did we introduce it in the first place?
460. # [15:47] <Lachy> it's mostly useful for non-JS implementations
461. # [15:48] <annevk2> Lachy, which?
462. # [15:48] <Lachy> Java, apparently
463. # [15:48] <annevk2> did anyone implement it?
464. # [15:48] <Lachy> or so I was told by people claiming to want to use it in Java
465. # [15:48] <annevk2> ugh
466. # [15:48] <Lachy> yeah, it got implemneted in browsers
467. # [15:49] <annevk2> you should have forbidden it for JS-based implementations
468. # [15:49] <Lachy> I tried that
469. # [15:49] <Lachy> that idea got rejected
470. # [15:49] <annevk2> then we should've just dropped it completely imo
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472. # [15:51] <Lachy> it's a bit late for that, which is why I'm considering just leaving it as is so it can only be used to know if the implementation has some support for the api, rather than any specific level
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474. # [15:52] <Lachy> that way, it's a mostly harmless piece of legacy junk
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476. # [15:59] <jgraham> Maybe we should just change the spec to read "hasFeature(): mostly harmless"
477. # [15:59] <jgraham> and by "the spec" I mean WebDOM
478. # [16:00] <Lachy> redefine it in WebDOM to just return true for everything :-)
479. # [16:03] <jgraham> I guess that might break sites
480. # [16:03] <jgraham> Sadly
481. # [16:04] <Lachy> might be interesting to find out what effect it would have in practice, if we could find sites that acutally use it
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483. # [16:12] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
484. # [16:15] <jgraham> It would be good to get it to a fixed list at least
485. # [16:17] <Philip`> Lots seem to use it to check for XPath 3.0
486. # [16:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: must be "future proofing" considering that XPath is just getting to 2.2 and the version supported in browsers is 1.0 :-)
487. # [16:19] <hsivonen> (yes, I realize 3.0 is the DOM level)
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490. # [16:22] <Lachy> it would be more useful if selectors api had a way of providing useful error reporting to scripts that indicated the exact cause of the problem, rather than providing an overly broad indicator like hasFeature() which says nothing about which selectors are support, or which methods are supported and what arguments they accept
491. # [16:23] <Lachy> that functionality was requested in the past, but unfortunately the discussions revealed no practical way of doing implementing it
492. # [16:23] <Lachy> anyway, spec checked in. http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api2/
493. # [16:24] <Lachy> and the last major issue I need to start looking at is namespace support :-(
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495. # [16:27] <Philip`> I bet you're having fun today
496. # [16:27] <Philip`> hasFeature and namespaces - what more could you ask for?
497. # [16:28] <annevk2> extensibility
498. # [16:28] <annevk2> distributed extensibility and a few comments from Roy on how you go against fifteen years of experience
499. # [16:29] <hsivonen> and now it seems that RDFa not only comes with xmlns baggage but is also a delivery vector for @version
500. # [16:31] <Lachy> at least hasFeaure only took 5 minutes to deal with. Namespaces are going to take much longer discussions about whether or not it's worth it, and then if it is, even longer discussions about how best to solve it
501. # [16:31] <annevk2> hsivonen, RDFa designers took the blue pill :)
502. # [16:32] <Philip`> Lachy: If you want to e.g. use the Selectors API on SVG (particularly SVG embedded in HTML), is there any way to make it work sensibly without adding namespace support?
503. # [16:33] <hsivonen> annevk2: dunno about pills in this case, but it seems like RDFa pokes multiple areas that are considered harmful over here on #whatwg
504. # [16:33] <hsivonen> annevk2: one such area could be written off as a matter of chance
505. # [16:34] <Lachy> Philip`, sure, since in most cases, the tag names differ.
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507. # [16:34] <Lachy> the cases where they clash, like a and textarea, are a little more problematic
508. # [16:35] <Philip`> I suppose "svg a" would work okay in most cases, except when you've got HTML embedded in SVG embedded in HTML
509. # [16:35] <jgraham> Lachy: FWIW I find it hard to follow from the spec what the effect of refNodes is supposed to be
510. # [16:35] <Lachy> jgraham, I explained it better with examples and use cases in a mail on public-webapps. One sec...
511. # [16:36] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/1387.html
512. # [16:36] <jgraham> I assume it is supposed to be related to filtering a node list for elements that match a selector or something, but I can't work out where it is actually specified
513. # [16:38] <Lachy> it's specified that :reference pseudo-class matches the elements passed in the refNodes selector, and that scoped selector strings imply the presence of :reference at the beginning of each selector
514. # [16:39] <Lachy> basically, the concept is that it allows you to select elements based on their relationship to one or more specific elements
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517. # [16:59] <jgraham> Lachy: I think youneed to be explicit when you describe the effect of the methods that refNodes is used to determine the set of contextual reference elements
518. # [17:00] <Lachy> how is this not explicit enough? "The optional refNodes argument specifies one or more contextual reference element nodes."
519. # [17:00] <Lachy> with a link to contextual refernece elements that clearly explains what it is and that they are matched by :reference
520. # [17:00] <jgraham> Lachy: Because the specification reads like it operates by side effect
521. # [17:01] <Lachy> huh?
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523. # [17:02] <jgraham> Lachy: In code terms, the specification reads like you currently set contextual reference nodes as a global variable and then call the match function which implicitly reads that global
524. # [17:03] <jgraham> Lachy: I would prefer a style where you explicity say that refNodes is passed to the maych algorithm
525. # [17:03] <jgraham> *match
526. # [17:03] <jgraham> Does that make sense?
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528. # [17:06] <Lachy> ok, would it work if I specified in the Processing Selectors section something like "If the selector contains the :reference pseudo-class, the implementation must use the refNodes parameter to determine the contextual reference elements."
529. # [17:08] <zcorpan_> hmm, http://www.w3.org/2006/02/son-of-3023/draft-murata-kohn-lilley-xml-03.html deprecates text/xml instead of fixing the issue
530. # [17:08] <annevk2> is :reference the new :scope?
531. # [17:08] <annevk2> zcorpan_, old news
532. # [17:08] <Lachy> annevk2, yes
533. # [17:08] <zcorpan_> annevk2: ok
534. # [17:08] <annevk2> zcorpan_, Julian asked for some clarification
535. # [17:08] <jgraham> Hmm, I think that would help, but it wouldn't really make Section 6.1 or 6.2 any clearer
536. # [17:09] <annevk2> Lachy, I think :scope was a better term
537. # [17:09] <annevk2> especially if browsers implement <style scoped>
538. # [17:10] <jgraham> Lachy: Also "process this argument" doesn't really tell you that you are doing the spec equivalent of setting a variable
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540. # [17:11] <Lachy> :scope seemed innacurate when used for the purpose of filtering a collection of elements, as in document.querySelectorAll(".foo:reference", listOfElements);
541. # [17:12] * jgraham might be too used to the HTML5/ES5 style where everything is a pseudo-code algorithm
542. # [17:12] <annevk2> oh, didn't know we needed such a feature
543. # [17:12] <Lachy> it's bascially like $(elementCollection).filter("..."); in JQuery
544. # [17:13] <gsnedders> jgraham, Lachy: if I end up doing stuff like Web DOM Core, I do want a fixed list, and I see no reason why that isn't possible.
545. # [17:13] <jgraham> Lachy: Also typo in section 7 "must match the any element"
546. # [17:14] <Lachy> fixed the typos
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548. # [17:17] <Lachy> jgraham, I'm not sure yet sure how to rewrite it to make it clearer, but I will think about it and get back to you. In the mean time, can you file a bug or send mail to public-webapps so I don't forget
549. # [17:18] <jgraham> Where do I file bugs? W3C bugzilla?
550. # [17:18] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=Selectors%20API
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553. # [17:22] <Lachy> what if I said this in section 6.1? "When evaluating the selector, the implementation must use the refNodes argument, if any, to determine the contextual reference elements."
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570. # [18:20] <mookid> hi fans - new question about the cross domain requests mechanisms
571. # [18:21] <mookid> anyone around to help a dummy get a clue?
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575. # [18:24] <Philip`> mookid: Someone might be, so it's probably good to just ask whatever question you have
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581. # [18:26] <mookid> ok I just don't know if this is the right place to be asking questions about that
582. # [18:28] <mookid> trying to figure out the reason that OPTIONS was used in the handshake to figure out this 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header - and not HEAD
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584. # [18:32] * Philip` doesn't remember, but supposes someone like annevk2 should know
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589. # [18:41] <Philip`> mookid: (HEAD doesn't seem to make sense because of its semantics - it's meant to be like an equivalent GET but without the response body, and if you're doing a pre-flight request for a POST to a resource that doesn't respond to GET then using HEAD would be weird)
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601. # [18:55] <mookid> Philip`: but the handshake is to establish apprpriate referrer domains for the resource
602. # [18:56] <mookid> http methods are separate to this?
603. # [18:57] <mookid> i.e. the mechanism can't define a resource that accepts GET but not POST from one domain
604. # [18:58] <mookid> *one = another
605. # [18:59] <Philip`> mookid: Access-Control-Allow-Methods sounds like it can do that
606. # [19:00] <mookid> fair enough, thanks
607. # [19:00] <Philip`> or you could just have a resource that always returns 405 Method Not Allowed for GET, and only accepts POST, and in that case it would be weird to use HEAD and expect a useful response
608. # [19:00] <Philip`> (what with HEAD being a subset of GET)
609. # [19:01] <mookid> it's not
610. # [19:01] <mookid> :P
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613. # [19:02] <mookid> well
614. # [19:02] <mookid> hmm thats a weird one
615. # [19:02] <mookid> is it actually defined like that in the spec?
616. # [19:04] <Philip`> "The metainformation contained in the HTTP headers in response to a HEAD request SHOULD be identical to the information sent in response to a GET request."
617. # [19:12] * drunknbass_work| is now known as drunknbass_work
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620. # [19:22] <Hixie> usability study 6
621. # [19:22] * Parts: adactio (n=adactio@host86-138-101-27.range86-138.btcentralplus.com)
622. # [19:22] <Hixie> it's interesting that all the paticipants so far have been getting that <img>'s data comes from src="" and <p>'s data comes from the element's contents
623. # [19:22] <Hixie> this participant even explicitly mentioned this and said it was "obvious"
624. # [19:22] <Hixie> excellent
625. # [19:23] <Hixie> i was really worried that might be counter-intuitive
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628. # [19:25] <tantek> Hixie - microformats have well-established priori art and practice in that (getting data from <img src> and <p> content etc.)
629. # [19:25] <tantek> so it's not really a surprise
630. # [19:25] <Hixie> this participant has no microformats experience
631. # [19:26] <Hixie> also some of the previous participants weren't able to determine if <a itemprop="" href=""></a> should get the value from the href="" or the element's contents
632. # [19:26] <tantek> Hixie, that's because it depends on the property ("itemprop" in your example)
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634. # [19:26] <tantek> properties of type URL take their value from the href
635. # [19:26] <tantek> whereas normal "string" properties that their value from the element's contents
636. # [19:27] <Hixie> i don't really have any information to base the "why" on, i'm just observing what these participants have found intuitive or not
637. # [19:27] <tantek> this is deliberate / by design and helps with efficient markup in very common cases (e.g. linking to a person and their web page by name)
638. # [19:27] <Hixie> excellent, this participant has no problems with URL property names either
639. # [19:28] <Hixie> so far only the participants who had trouble with the fundamentals have had trouble with full-url property names
640. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> Awesome.
641. # [19:28] <Hixie> which is interesting
642. # [19:28] <Hixie> none so far have said anything about urls being too long, either
643. # [19:28] <Hixie> which i found interesting
644. # [19:29] <tantek> Hixie, do you mean "reverse DNS property names"?
645. # [19:29] <tantek> or did something change recently to put full URLs as property names?
646. # [19:29] <hober> tantek: it's been that way since the advent of microdata
647. # [19:30] <hober> full urls, java-style property names, or short names from a predefined vocabulary
648. # [19:30] <tantek> it's been reverse DNS property names since the advent of microdata
649. # [19:30] <hober> yes, it's *also* been reverse DNS names
650. # [19:30] <tantek> oh, *both* have been allowed?
651. # [19:30] <hober> yup
652. # [19:31] <tantek> were there any examples with URLs as property names?
653. # [19:31] <Hixie> tantek: the study has only tested URLs and short names
654. # [19:32] <tantek> are you going to test the reverse DNS property names? (those seemed like a much more interesting simplifying innovation of microdata)
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656. # [19:32] <Hixie> wasn't planning on it, since people have been so negative about them
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658. # [19:32] <Hixie> we don't really have a good solid proposal for dealing with names yet
659. # [19:32] <tantek> Hixie - maybe the supporters of reverse DNS property names have simply quietly supported them, rather than trolling incessantly ;)
660. # [19:33] <Hixie> maybe
661. # [19:33] <hober> yes, the "moral majority" form of being Warnocked :)
662. # [19:33] <Hixie> hah, this participant just complained about the vcard terminology ("locality is so vague, yet postal-code is so specific!")
663. # [19:34] <Hixie> wow, she guessed <itemref ref="">'s meaning correctly without seeing any documentation
664. # [19:35] <tantek> Hixie - not surprising, most don't "get" why vcard uses locality or region until they have to markup international addresses
665. # [19:36] <tantek> same reason why people don't get what's wrong with 10/9/9 as a date until they travel to a country that uses a different DD MM order than they are used to.
666. # [19:37] * gsnedders assumes that means 2010-09-09 and gets on with life, thinking it isn't coming up soon
667. # [19:37] <tantek> gsnedders :)
668. # [19:37] <Rik|work> gsnedders: you should care even less, it was 3 weeks ago
669. # [19:38] <gsnedders> Rik|work: Either way, no need to care about it now :)
670. # [19:38] <gsnedders> I guess if you're one of these mad Americans you'd have to, though, but their loss.
671. # [19:39] <Hixie> haha, interesting, i made a typo in the markup (item vs itemscope), and when i got the study moderator to fix it, the participant was like "ohh, that makes much more sense"
672. # [19:39] <Hixie> and that was precisely what we were testing
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675. # [19:42] <Hixie> so, interesting.
676. # [19:43] <Hixie> she understands containership this time -- she explicitly commented on how itemscope with itemprop=adr made sense
677. # [19:43] <Hixie> (basically saying that a nested vcard makes sense)
678. # [19:43] <Hixie> but she cannot express it!
679. # [19:44] <Hixie> the exercise has her trying to write down the microdata from this example: http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/004/review-annotated.html
680. # [19:44] <Hixie> and she expressed it verbally very accurately, especially the last part with the itemprop=adr
681. # [19:44] <Hixie> but when she tried to write it down, it lost all structure
682. # [19:44] <Hixie> and now she's trying to mark up http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/004/blog.html
683. # [19:44] <Hixie> and she's getting it wrong again
684. # [19:45] <Hixie> ooooh! wait! she's getting it!
685. # [19:45] <Hixie> man this study more than anything tells me the power of getting the right examples
686. # [19:46] <Hixie> the intro has <div>s and yet none of the examples she had to study carefully has <div>s
687. # [19:46] <Hixie> so she's using a stray <body> :-(
688. # [19:47] <Hixie> people really really don't want to include hidden metadata, that's hilarious
689. # [19:47] <Hixie> they don't even know they don't
690. # [19:47] <Hixie> they just don't do it
691. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> I like these studies. Thanks for running them, Hixie.
692. # [19:49] <Hixie> i wish we could do more! just not sure how to really test most things
693. # [19:50] * TabAtkins wishes the Dev team at his company would settle on a *single* rule for demarcing parts of a string as being replacable. The translators are getting horribly confused and translating things that should be treated as gensyms.
694. # [19:51] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-joldejohsonbwkeh)
695. # [19:51] <Hixie> sweet, she got that she had to use the predefined vocabularies
696. # [19:52] <Hixie> and she got that itemid="" is how you refer to the image in a work
697. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> That's a first so far, right?
698. # [19:52] <Hixie> yeah pretty much!
699. # [19:52] <Hixie> i added text to the intro to try to guide one to that conclusion
700. # [19:52] <Hixie> maybe it worked, maybe she's just more in that mindset
701. # [19:52] <Hixie> not sure what her background is
702. # [19:52] <Hixie> (i could look it up, i just don't have it at hand)
703. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> What intro did she read?
704. # [19:53] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/004/introduction
705. # [19:53] <Hixie> though she stopped about half way through
706. # [19:53] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0059871802-99-6d.client.student.harvard.edu)
707. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> Ah, that's some good text there.
708. # [19:54] <Hixie> she replaced her stray <body> wrapping <h2>s and <p>s with a <span>
709. # [19:54] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-108-186.customers.d1-online.com) ("Ex-Chat")
710. # [19:54] <Hixie> it's an improvement i guess
711. # [19:54] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-108-186.customers.d1-online.com)
712. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> I think your examples use <span>s when hooking metadata to stuff that doesn't naturally have an element already.
713. # [19:56] <Hixie> i tried to use <div>s for almost all the itemscope=""s in the intro
714. # [19:56] <Hixie> but none of the the examples she looks at do
715. # [19:56] <Hixie> they use <body>, <li>, and <tr> respectively
716. # [19:56] <Hixie> oh an <span> for an itemprop=adr once
717. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> Making *everything* start with "item" was a win I think.
718. # [19:56] <Hixie> yeah i think that helps
719. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> The confusion of having lots of seemingly unrelated names working together is one of the big loses in RDFa to me.
720. # [19:57] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
721. # [19:57] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@m223j.studby.ntnu.no)
722. # [19:57] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
723. # [19:57] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@m223j.studby.ntnu.no)
724. # [19:58] <Hixie> someone suggested renaming them to iscope, itype, and iprop or iname; someone else suggested mdobject and mdname
725. # [19:58] <Hixie> personally i prefer item
726. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, item is better. It's transparent and obvious.
727. # [19:58] <Hixie> i mean, itemscope, itemtype, and itemprop (and <itemref>)
728. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> And easy to type, so the extra characters over "i" aren't that significant.
729. # [19:59] <Hixie> i love how every. single. person. who has tried to mark up blog.html ends up using the <h2>s as the itemprop=titles
730. # [19:59] <Hixie> when in fact none of them are
731. # [20:00] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-wyowrlsgbvimhpjo) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
732. # [20:01] <Hixie> ok, blog-annotated.html makes a lot of sense to her
733. # [20:01] <Hixie> that's encouraging
734. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> I can see that. Titles are titles.
735. # [20:01] * Joins: webben (n=benh@82.152.36.121)
736. # [20:01] <Hixie> it matched what she had been verbally saying she wanted, but not what she did
737. # [20:01] <Hixie> which is interesting
738. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> Perhaps people aren't trusting themselves to mark up 'naturally'?
739. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> Instead assuming there has to be some more complex structure they should follow?
740. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> I've had that "it can't be this easy" feeling before when confronted with something that just falls into place.
741. # [20:05] * Quits: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
742. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Hell, I still feel that way anytime I use Markdown.
743. # [20:05] <Hixie> yeah she even said that she was trying to use a more complex study
744. # [20:05] <Hixie> er
745. # [20:05] <Hixie> structure
746. # [20:05] <Hixie> not study!
747. # [20:05] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-xyjaawcomygndjux)
748. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Hixie, we need a <markdown> element. Plain-text formats ftw.
749. # [20:06] <Hixie> hah, she said "i kinda hope that this list of predefined vocabularies isn't the real list"
750. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Heh, she wants more?
751. # [20:07] <Hixie> well the list is basically just the terms i used in the examples
752. # [20:07] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
753. # [20:07] <Hixie> so it's a pretty dumb list
754. # [20:07] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-108-186.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
755. # [20:10] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
756. # [20:10] <zcorpan_> is abarth paying attention to htmlwg bugs?
757. # [20:12] <lmorchard> HTML 5 spec question: Did the <datalist> element support a data attribute that later got removed? Seemed like it did in Web Forms, and HTML 5 examples show it in use.
758. # [20:12] <lmorchard> Tried grepping though an svn log, but didn't find the answer
759. # [20:12] <zcorpan_> yeah, it was removed in the wf2->html5 integration
760. # [20:13] <lmorchard> Huh, oh well. It seemed useful
761. # [20:13] <zcorpan_> yeah
762. # [20:14] <zcorpan_> but not too hard to emulate
763. # [20:14] <Hixie> lmorchard: yeah, it might be added back later. it had its issues, not too many advocates, and frankly not too many use cases, so i figured it would be better to trim the fat.
764. # [20:14] <Hixie> ok, participant 5 is done
765. # [20:14] <Hixie> 6th and final one this afternoon
766. # [20:14] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12) (Remote closed the connection)
767. # [20:14] <lmorchard> Seemed nice to have a native autocomplete data source
768. # [20:14] <Hixie> we'll just run the same 004 study again to find out if this morning was a fluke or what
769. # [20:15] <Hixie> lmorchard: yup
770. # [20:15] <Hixie> lmorchard: probably are better ways to do it if that's the exact use case though
771. # [20:15] <Hixie> lmorchard: e.g. using some sort of protocol over WebSocket, so you don't have to do a TCP round trip for every keystroke
772. # [20:15] <Hixie> er, two TCP roundtrips
773. # [20:15] <Hixie> one to create the connection and one to get the data
774. # [20:16] <lmorchard> Ah, true. Then you don't need to produce, deliver, and parse a whole body of autocomplete choices
775. # [20:16] <Philip`> (Isn't the first roundtrip solved by keepalive?)
776. # [20:16] * Quits: webben (n=benh@82.152.36.121) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
777. # [20:17] <zcorpan_> also, oninput isn't every keystroke
778. # [20:17] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
779. # [20:17] <Philip`> When I stroke my keys, nothing happens
780. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> Philip`, you're not doing it right. Treat them like you love them, not like they're just a piece of meat.
781. # [20:18] * Philip` presumably needs a touch-sensitive keyboard
782. # [20:19] <Philip`> If your keyboard is a piece of meat, I think you should take it back to the shop
783. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> Meat-based computing is the future.
784. # [20:19] <lmorchard> They're made out of meat!
785. # [20:20] * Joins: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
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788. # [20:29] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
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790. # [20:33] * Quits: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
791. # [20:33] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
792. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Woohoo! Got a medical study just sent to me to see if a vaccine works by actually exposing me to the virus and seeing if I get sick. Totally worth it for $1100, though. ^_^
793. # [20:35] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
794. # [20:36] <mpilgrim> TabAtkins: we should test RDFa that way
795. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> mpilgrim: There are some things I wouldn't risk.
796. # [20:44] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.19.140)
797. # [20:47] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins: swine flu?
798. # [20:49] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Zombism?
799. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: Nah, it's something called "Cruise Ship Illness and Intestinal Flu".
800. # [20:51] <Philip`> Sounds jolly
801. # [20:52] * jgraham wonders if "#whatwg on freenode.net" would be a suitable (if non unique) answer to "where does Ian Hickson live on the web?"
802. # [20:52] <Philip`> TabAtkins: How long would you have to be sick for, before you considered $1100 no longer worth it?
803. # [20:53] * gsnedders grumbles at having to start up word
804. # [20:53] <Philip`> jgraham: #whatwg is on the web now?
805. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Depends on the severity of the illness.
806. # [20:53] * jgraham wonders if he is along in finding the idea that people "live at" or are "identified" by some URI they happen to control to be odd
807. # [20:53] <jgraham> Philip`: Hmm. Good point.
808. # [20:53] <jgraham> *alone
809. # [20:54] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: What does "trappstädning" mean?
810. # [20:54] * Philip` partly-intentionally avoids having a single URL that he considers to be anything like a homepage
811. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Philip`, I've done the same thing. www.xanthir.com is just a place for me to have random fun.
812. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> And see what the current time is.
813. # [20:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Google translate says "stair cleaning"
814. # [20:55] * jgraham guesses you looked at that already
815. # [20:55] * gsnedders prefers to give out secret.gsnedders.com
816. # [20:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, I did. I guess it's right, as it does just about make sense :P
817. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Now, as to when $1100 becomes no longer worth it, I'd probably rate it as a bit over a week. For a general intestinal flu, I'd consider compensation similar to what I make per day at my job to be fair.
818. # [20:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: It looks like "trap standing", so presumably it involves finding mousetraps and bear traps etc on which to stand for laughs
819. # [20:56] * jgraham is far too lazy to have anything that resembles a coherent homepage
820. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: That doesn't really make sense.
821. # [20:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: What, standing on traps?
822. # [20:56] <jgraham> Or rather it never seems that interesting to make one
823. # [20:56] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
824. # [20:56] * gsnedders vandalizes his, apparently
825. # [20:56] <Philip`> It's a way to pass the time
826. # [20:57] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: what jgraham said
827. # [20:57] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yeah, well, you have been warned about that
828. # [20:57] <gsnedders> Philip`: So it's my landlord's responsibility, and not mine? Oh well. I guess I'm sad to miss out. :(
829. # [20:57] <gsnedders> Also, I'm apparently "a very nice, a bit humble and easy going person", which is a bit of a worrying description.
830. # [20:58] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.60.169)
831. # [20:59] * Joins: dpranke (n=Adium@nat/google/x-filkgfrdzzuekxmb)
832. # [20:59] <jgraham> At least they didn't just call you "easy"
833. # [21:00] <gsnedders> Well, yeah.
834. # [21:01] * Joins: ap_ (n=ap@17.246.19.174)
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838. # [21:11] * TabAtkins is desperately thankful he remembered a browser game he played 10+ years ago as the answer to the secret question when recovering his password.
839. # [21:12] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.19.140)
840. # [21:12] <zcorpan_> http://net.tutsplus.com/articles/web-roundups/5-lesser-known-javascript-libraries-that-make-web-design-easier/ - talk about over engineering things (the Modernizr audio example)
841. # [21:12] <zcorpan_> let's test for audio support! if it's not supported, let's hide the element!
842. # [21:13] <zcorpan_> because <audio src></audio> does ... something bad in old browsers?
843. # [21:13] <zcorpan_> but wait, then let's test for audio support, and if it is supported, let's hide the download link that is next to the audio!
844. # [21:14] <zcorpan_> because this way is better than just <audio src><a href>link</a></audio>
845. # [21:14] <lmorchard> It's got electrolytes
846. # [21:15] <Hixie> why would they hide the download link at all
847. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> Ooh, I didn't know about Firebug Lite. Awesome.
848. # [21:15] <zcorpan_> Hixie: dunno, maybe they want to rely on the browser providing an easy way to download the audio if it supports <audio>
849. # [21:16] <zcorpan_> i didn't get firebug lite to work, though i only tried to apply it as a bookmarklet
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852. # [21:20] * Joins: remysharp (n=remyshar@80.229.253.218)
853. # [21:20] <paul_irish> zcorpan_: yah that's kind of useless. (i maintain modernizr, btw). i'll shoot the author a message to have him do it properly. :)
854. # [21:20] * Quits: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
855. # [21:21] <remysharp> hi - I can't find the -data attribute in the html5 spec, has it been removed or am I just being lame at searching?
856. # [21:21] <Hixie> search for data-*
857. # [21:21] <Philip`> paul_irish: If you're the right person to report this to: I think there's a typo in the project's name, it should have an extra 'e'
858. # [21:21] <remysharp> or rather "data-*"
859. # [21:21] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.19.140)
860. # [21:21] <paul_irish> Philip`: ah, can you file a bug? :P
861. # [21:21] * Joins: annodomini (n=lambda@130.189.179.215)
862. # [21:22] * miketaylr ducks from Philip`
863. # [21:22] <Hixie> remysharp: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-data-*
864. # [21:22] <Philip`> remysharp: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#embedding-custom-non-visible-data
865. # [21:23] <zcorpan_> paul_irish: i've already written a comment :)
866. # [21:23] <paul_irish> Philip`: thx for the web font optimizer btw. i'm hoping to add support for any font file to it.
867. # [21:23] <remysharp> cheers
868. # [21:24] <Philip`> paul_irish: The web UI is restricted to some free ones, but the code at http://bitbucket.org/philip/font-optimizer/ ought to work with any font
869. # [21:24] <Philip`> Well, any non-CFF font
870. # [21:24] <paul_irish> yah that's what it looked like.
871. # [21:24] <Philip`> except ones it doesn't work with
872. # [21:24] <Philip`> but I've tested on quite a few
873. # [21:24] <zcorpan_> you can choose any color you want so long as it's black
874. # [21:25] <paul_irish> very cool. i'm also hoping to support something like font segmenting. so half the glyphs go in one file and half in the rest.. its a trick typekit is doing these days.
875. # [21:25] <remysharp> Re: custom data, if I have: <div data-lat-long="12,12"> - could I target it using this.dataset['lat-long'] (note particular use of dashes)
876. # [21:25] * Quits: drunknbass_work (n=aaron@pool-71-107-253-243.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
877. # [21:26] <zcorpan_> remysharp: yes
878. # [21:26] <Philip`> paul_irish: That seems much harder when you want to support ligatures (particularly for non-Western languages which depend heavily on glyph substitutions) and kerning
879. # [21:26] <Philip`> paul_irish: As far as I'm aware, Typekit's approach is to not support those things
880. # [21:26] <paul_irish> Philip`: i agree. we'll see how far i can reasonably take it.
881. # [21:27] <paul_irish> yah that's what i've seen as well.
882. # [21:27] <Philip`> paul_irish: (My code tries very hard to preserve all of that kind of information, while still optimising away as much as possible)
883. # [21:27] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@80.187.108.186)
884. # [21:27] <Hixie> zcorpan_: what does "("[^...]" is subtracted from Char.)" mean in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7488#c3 ?
885. # [21:27] <Philip`> paul_irish: ((The GSUB/GPOS tables can be hundreds of KB in some font, so they do need to be optimised when subsetting))
886. # [21:29] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@BAE34c6.bae.pppool.de)
887. # [21:29] <zcorpan_> Hixie: [^a-z], [^#xN-#xN]
888. # [21:29] <zcorpan_> matches any Char with a value outside the range indicated.
889. # [21:30] <Hixie> right
890. # [21:30] <Hixie> so?
891. # [21:30] <zcorpan_> Hixie: so you need to check against Char, too
892. # [21:30] <zcorpan_> Hixie: not just check for " and '
893. # [21:31] <Hixie> oh, i see
894. # [21:31] <Hixie> ok, thanks
895. # [21:31] <Hixie> sorry didn't realise we were checking anything at all yet
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900. # [21:33] <Hixie> i wonder why they used [^"]* for systemliteral, but used Char-'-' for comments
901. # [21:33] <Hixie> if it means the same
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903. # [21:34] * [1]mpilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
904. # [21:35] * Hixie wonders why XML allows the second block of <control>s but no the first
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908. # [21:35] <zcorpan_> it's Char-'--'
909. # [21:36] <Hixie> right
910. # [21:36] * Quits: smaug (n=chatzill@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
911. # [21:36] <Hixie> but why not use Char-'"'-"'" or some such?
912. # [21:36] <Hixie> whatever the right syntax is
913. # [21:36] <zcorpan_> dunno
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915. # [21:41] <Hixie> ok tried to fix it
916. # [21:41] <Hixie> thanks
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921. # [21:46] * zcorpan_ bets there's still a case it doesn't cover
922. # [21:55] <jgraham> Philip`: It seems like the intersting number wrt RDFa versioning is how many existing implementations actually ignore the version parameter i.e. parse version="2" identically to version="1"
923. # [21:55] <jgraham> s/parse/interpret/
924. # [21:56] <Philip`> jgraham: All the ones that ignore @version entirely will do that
925. # [21:57] <hsivonen> do any existing pieces of software claimed to be RDFa consumers modify their behavior depending on version attribute values?
926. # [21:57] <Philip`> I suppose it's theoretically possible they accept both version-1 and absent-version
927. # [21:57] * Philip` could look at the implementation code, he guesses
928. # [21:58] * zcorpan_ notes that xml 1.0 interprets version="1.0" and version="1.9" the same but version="2.0" differently
929. # [21:58] <zcorpan_> 5th ed, that is
930. # [21:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: that doesn't count because they changed that after the 1.1 disaster
931. # [21:59] * Quits: SavageX_ (n=maikmert@BAE3c80.bae.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
932. # [22:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: a case study should consider pre-1.1 parsers that were built to self-sabotage when fed the 1.1 identifier
933. # [22:00] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah it's that theoretical possibility I was thinking of
934. # [22:00] <zcorpan_> i wonder what the xml core wg will do if/when they find that no-one is adopting 5ed
935. # [22:00] <jgraham> But the whole idea of versioning doesn't seem like it can work so I woudln't waste too much time on it
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940. # [22:09] * Quits: cohitre (n=cohitre@dsl081-168-130.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
941. # [22:10] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
942. # [22:11] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@157.22.22.46)
943. # [22:12] <zcorpan_> (which resource you end up with
944. # [22:12] <zcorpan_> depends on your Google login credentials)
945. # [22:13] <zcorpan_> can this be exposed to other pages?
946. # [22:13] <zcorpan_> <iframe src=google-i'm-feeling-lucky>
947. # [22:13] <zcorpan_> window[0].URL
948. # [22:15] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.19.32)
949. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> Hmm, what's Neuberg's nationality?
950. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> I'm watching his HTML5 video, and I noticed that he uses the German way of counting on fingers for his "5 steps" graphic.
951. # [22:17] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
952. # [22:18] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: what's the German way?
953. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> Starting with the thumb.
954. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> In America we end with the thumb, only using it for "5".
955. # [22:19] <zcorpan_> sweden does it the American way
956. # [22:19] * ttepasse can't extend little and ring finger for counting to two ??but then he's german.
957. # [22:19] <zcorpan_> although the german way is easier
958. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> ttepasse: Sorry, bad description. ^_^ 1 is index finger, 2 is index and middle, etc.
959. # [22:20] <zcorpan_> ttepasse: you start with index finger
960. # [22:20] <ttepasse> Uh. Ok.
961. # [22:21] <ttepasse> At least it's not binary.
962. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> Binary is really easy on the fingers.
963. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> I use it all the time.
964. # [22:22] <zcorpan_> 4 is harder the german way
965. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> Frex, I can count out how long to do my mouthwash on one hand.
966. # [22:22] <zcorpan_> (than 3 the american way)
967. # [22:22] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@80.187.108.186) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
968. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the American 3 can use the thumb to hold down the pinky.
969. # [22:23] <Hixie> final participant
970. # [22:23] * Joins: cohitre (n=cohitre@c-24-18-158-106.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
971. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> woo
972. # [22:23] <Hixie> he just said something that directly contradicted something this morning's participant said
973. # [22:23] <Hixie> how confoosing
974. # [22:23] <Hixie> i want my participants to all be consistent with each other so my life is easy!
975. # [22:23] <Hixie> ("my" participants :-P)
976. # [22:23] <ttepasse> The new feudalism.
977. # [22:24] <zcorpan_> you should have chosen other participants, then
978. # [22:24] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-73-162.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
979. # [22:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: naysayers won't approve of your selection of participants even if they weren't chosen for your convenience
980. # [22:26] <Hixie> zcorpan_: i didn't chose any of them, we have an independent team for that
981. # [22:27] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@67.180.202.79)
982. # [22:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh i don't really care about the naysayers, i'm just trying to make it better :-)
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997. # [22:52] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B017A57.dip.t-dialin.net) ("?Q")
998. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Man, now I wanna start using Workers.
999. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Damn IE upgrade cycle.
1000. # [22:55] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
1001. # [22:55] <Philip`> Why "now"?
1002. # [22:57] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-108-186.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
1003. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> Neuberg's video.
1004. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> While I've vaguely tracked Workers on the list, I didn't realize how easy they were to use.
1005. # [23:02] * Quits: cohitre (n=cohitre@c-24-18-158-106.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
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1007. # [23:04] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@nat/mozilla/x-wjyrmfsmyclehkjt)
1008. # [23:06] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@tmo-108-186.customers.d1-online.com)
1009. # [23:09] <hsivonen> with Chrome Frame, IE8 has 7 layout modes, right?
1010. # [23:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1011. # [23:10] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (n=chatzill@70.139.15.246)
1012. # [23:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah, I think
1013. # [23:13] * Quits: miketaylr (n=miketayl@38.117.156.163)
1014. # [23:13] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.59) ("Leaving...")
1015. # [23:16] <sicking> Hixie: they should have called it "Canvas Accessibility Taskforce" instead
1016. # [23:17] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
1017. # [23:20] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-xyjaawcomygndjux) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
1018. # [23:22] <Hixie> what _did_ they call it?
1019. # [23:23] <Hixie> sicking: do you know anything about https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Sec-From ?
1020. # [23:23] * Quits: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
1021. # [23:23] <Hixie> specifically, do you know if "*If ancestor tree is more than 1 deep, send "null"" still applies now that we have the list version of Origin
1022. # [23:24] <sicking> Hixie: don't know what they called it, but i'm all about backronyms
1023. # [23:24] <Hixie> hehe
1024. # [23:24] <sicking> Hixie: don't know that no :(
1025. # [23:24] * Hixie summons abarth
1026. # [23:24] * Joins: annevk42 (n=annevk@cm-84.215.133.38.getinternet.no)
1027. # [23:24] <Hixie> that's not abarth.
1028. # [23:25] * Hixie tries again with a chicken:
1029. # [23:25] <Hixie> . o
1030. # [23:25] <Hixie> ('>)
1031. # [23:25] <Hixie> LL
1032. # [23:25] * Quits: annevk42 (n=annevk@cm-84.215.133.38.getinternet.no) (Remote closed the connection)
1033. # [23:25] <Hixie> ok that's just disturbing.
1034. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Blatantly you control annevk42.
1035. # [23:26] * Joins: annevk42 (n=annevk@cm-84.215.133.38.getinternet.no)
1036. # [23:27] * Quits: |zalan| (n=zalan@catv-89-135-110-21.catv.broadband.hu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
1037. # [23:27] <TabAtkins_> Lachy, forgive me for being stupid, but *why* would we need special namespaced versions of the querySelector* functions? You can use namespaces directly in selectors.
1038. # [23:28] <annevk42> hmm, I knew I shouldn't go online
1039. # [23:28] <TabAtkins_> Haha.
1040. # [23:29] * TabAtkins_ sighs.
1041. # [23:29] <TabAtkins_> Oh, Roy T. Fielding. Why you so crazy?
1042. # [23:30] <Lachy> TabAtkins_, to provide namespace resolution mechanism.
1043. # [23:30] <annevk42> no, the answer is "just say no"
1044. # [23:30] <TabAtkins_> Lachy, I assume this is something beyond CSS's normal namespace handling? If so I don't really understand it, so shrug.
1045. # [23:31] <Lachy> annevk42, just saying no doesn't help. But the question was just about why the would be needed if we do introduce namespaces. I'm not saying we will or will not do so at this stage.
1046. # [23:31] * Joins: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@66-240-24-7.isp.comcastbusiness.net)
1047. # [23:31] <Lachy> @namespace can't be used in the API. That applies to CSS only.
1048. # [23:32] <annevk42> Hixie, Sec-From is dead
1049. # [23:32] <TabAtkins_> Point me at an example of how the current *NS functions do that?
1050. # [23:33] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-joldejohsonbwkeh) ("switching networks")
1051. # [23:33] <Lachy> TabAtkins_, document.getElementsByTagNameNS("http://www.w3.org/2000/svg", "svg");
1052. # [23:34] <TabAtkins_> Thought so. How would that work in querySelectorNS? You can potentially have multiple different namespaces in a single selector.
1053. # [23:34] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Connection timed out)
1054. # [23:34] <Lachy> For selectors api, we would need a way to resolve any number of prefixes and the default ns in, e.g., "svg|textArea, xh|textarea"
1055. # [23:34] <Hixie> annevk42: no, it's just renamed Origin
1056. # [23:34] <TabAtkins_> kk.
1057. # [23:34] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
1058. # [23:35] <annevk42> Hixie, which already existed
1059. # [23:35] <Hixie> sure but i still have to define the Privacy-Sensitive Contexts stuff
1060. # [23:35] <Lachy> the original proposal that was tried with selectors api v1 was to pass an NSResolver object that implements the lookupNamespaceURI() method (or simply a function in JS) that returned the namespcae URI
1061. # [23:36] <annevk42> Hixie, anyway, afaik abarth is following what I specified which means it is only null when there's no serialization
1062. # [23:36] <annevk42> Hixie, and it's space-separated in case of redirects
1063. # [23:37] <Hixie> annevk42: it's also null for regular hyperlinks, navigations of any kind other than form submission, <img>s, and style sheets, apparently
1064. # [23:40] <TabAtkins_> Lachy: The most natural js way to do it would be to just pass an object with the keys being the ns and the values being urls. {"svg":"http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"} as the first argument, frex.
1065. # [23:41] <Lachy> that was suggested but doesn't really solve the problems that existed with the function because of the ability to define getter functions.
1066. # [23:41] <TabAtkins_> I don't know enough context to understand that sentence.
1067. # [23:41] <sicking> annevk42: no, it's null in a lot more situations
1068. # [23:41] <Hixie> lachy: get a structured clone of the value passed, then use it :-)
1069. # [23:41] <Lachy> anyway, I'm not looking at the namespace issue right now and will not look into any possible solution until the use cases have been made clear.
1070. # [23:42] <sicking> annevk42: basically it's null when we don't think we can trust where a request-uri came from
1071. # [23:42] <sicking> annevk42: for example with <a> links, it's very common that the link is generated by someone other than the site owner
1072. # [23:43] <TabAtkins_> Lachy: Sure, I was just curious and wanted to understand some issues better before I responded.
1073. # [23:43] <Lachy> Hixie, that might work. I'll keep that in mind.
1074. # [23:43] <sicking> annevk42: for example most forums allow you to insert links, as do blog comments and gmail
1075. # [23:43] * Quits: Super-Dot (n=Super-Do@66-240-24-7.isp.comcastbusiness.net)
1076. # [23:46] <Hixie> <iframe> <embed> <applet> send origin; <img> does not
1077. # [23:46] <Hixie> should <object> ?
1078. # [23:47] * Philip` notes that Gmail seems to do some magic link rewriting so you don't actually get directly linked from emails
1079. # [23:48] * Quits: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn) ("Leaving...")
1080. # [23:49] <annevk42> Hixie, ah right
1081. # [23:50] <annevk42> Hixie, would be nice if <img> worked with CORS so you can prevent tainting the <canvas>
1082. # [23:50] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-xsvdqglqmufllwth)
1083. # [23:50] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.19.32)
1084. # [23:50] <Hixie> yes, CORS needs to be applied all over the place
1085. # [23:50] <Hixie> eventsource, img, etc
1086. # [23:50] <Hixie> but i'm waiting for cors to be deployed and proven good before i start adding it everywhere
1087. # [23:50] * Joins: doublec (n=doublec@203.97.204.82)
1088. # [23:50] <gsnedders> won't that cause web compat issues?
1089. # [23:51] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
1090. # [23:53] <Hixie> why?
1091. # [23:54] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
1092. # Session Close: Tue Sep 29 00:00:00 2009

The end :)