/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 07 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Goddammit, the lack of <di> or ::di strikes again!
  24. # [00:42] * TabAtkins now has to rewrite his <dl> into a <ul> with headings and paragraphs, just to get it styled in a sane way.
  25. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Actually, I'll rewrite it as <section>s.
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  28. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Huh. I've got a weird rendering issue using figure and dt/dd in Firefox. Dunno what's causing it, but if anyone wants to troubleshoot it with me in case it's something we need to worry about on the list, let me know.
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  31. # [00:55] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, i liek figure.
  32. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Wait, never mind. I forgot to make <figure> display:block, so it was generating borders around empty line-boxes before and after its normal content.
  33. # [00:55] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, tellme.
  34. # [00:55] <erlehmann> lol
  35. # [00:55] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, line-boxes ?
  36. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> CSS term. an inline element with block contents will still generate an anonymous inline block before and after the block contents.
  37. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> (Or rather, I think the collapsed whitespace between the element's start tag and the content element's start tag (similarly for end tags) causes it.)
  38. # [00:57] <Hixie> gsnedders|work: i replied to your e-mail (saying that i had no ideas), so if you don't get it, that could be indicative of a further problem
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  74. # [03:26] <Dashiva> Extensible ponies are the best
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  134. # [06:25] <StreVat> Hello all
  135. # [06:26] <StreVat> Just getting started developing a blog here and I wanna take the opportunity to do what I can in html5
  136. # [06:26] <StreVat> if anyone has any prized examples, let me know!
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  143. # [06:46] <othermaciej> if the entire main content of a document is an article, is it appropriate to use <article>?
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  147. # [06:58] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes
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  182. # [08:51] <boblet> StreVat: re HTML5 blog, two overviews of HTML5 sectioning elements (of most interest to authors) are:
  183. # [08:51] <boblet> http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/09/using-the-html5-sectioning-elements
  184. # [08:51] <boblet> http://boblet.tumblr.com/post/141239118/html5-structure4
  185. # [08:52] <boblet> Also, http://html5doctor.com/ has a lot of good articles
  186. # [08:52] <boblet> any questions ask here, and someone will generally help you out
  187. # [08:56] * hsivonen wonders how to make an eclipse project notice its Team function should now belong to MercurialEclipse--not Subclipse
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  205. # [09:53] <Hixie> thanks to Ms2ger, HTML5 now has an index of elements
  206. # [09:54] <nessy> w00t!
  207. # [09:56] <Philip`> Rather than index, you should call it a periodic table
  208. # [09:57] <othermaciej> would anyone like to help me proofread http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html before I send it to the HTML WG mailing list?
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  213. # [10:01] <Philip`> othermaciej: Shouldn't the bug be closed in 5.b.?
  214. # [10:02] <othermaciej> Let me see
  215. # [10:02] <Philip`> (It seems bad to leave open bugs hanging around forever)
  216. # [10:02] <Philip`> s/in 5.b./somewhere in the path leading up to 5.b./
  217. # [10:03] <othermaciej> Philip`: that's more substantive feedback than proofreading - right now by design we don't close it in that case, since the originator could come back at some later point
  218. # [10:03] <othermaciej> Philip`: probably good feedback to post on the mailing list once I post this
  219. # [10:03] <othermaciej> Philip`: we did discuss a possibility like tagging with a keyword or marking CLOSED with a keyword after some period of time and no reply
  220. # [10:03] <othermaciej> PS I just fixed the broken anchor links
  221. # [10:04] * Philip` reads the bit later on
  222. # [10:04] <nessy> othermaciej: that looks very helpful! will read later! gotta go talk about video a11y...
  223. # [10:04] <Philip`> Oh, it gets set to RESOLVED, so maybe that's enough
  224. # [10:04] <othermaciej> nessy: good luck
  225. # [10:04] <nessy> thanks :)
  226. # [10:04] <othermaciej> nessy: it will be in VERIFY by that point
  227. # [10:04] <nessy> just a 3 min webjam talk :)
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  229. # [10:04] <othermaciej> er
  230. # [10:04] <othermaciej> meant that for Philip`
  231. # [10:04] <nessy> no worries :)
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  234. # [10:06] <Philip`> othermaciej: "its usually not a good idea to repeatedly reopen the same bug" - s//'/
  235. # [10:06] <othermaciej> hmm, is the state really VERIFIED or is it VERIFY? Can't remember
  236. # [10:07] <zcorpan> the former
  237. # [10:07] <othermaciej> all righty
  238. # [10:07] <othermaciej> Philip`: thanks, fixed in my copy
  239. # [10:08] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the arrow from 6. WG Decision to 7.a. is not properly anchored
  240. # [10:08] <Philip`> othermaciej: "Rasied issue" (in diagram)
  241. # [10:08] * Quits: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  242. # [10:08] <Hixie> othermaciej: in step 2, is "A rationale for the change or lack of change (at least enough for the Disposition of Comments).", is saying nothing and just marking the bug fixed acceptable when the bug report is, e.g., a typo?
  243. # [10:09] <Hixie> othermaciej: or would the editor have to say "I corrected this because I agree that that is a spelling mistake" or something asinine like that
  244. # [10:09] <hsivonen> othermaciej: why does a bug have to include at least one fix suggestion?
  245. # [10:09] <Philip`> othermaciej: "settled amicably, If spec" - s/,/./
  246. # [10:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: for trivial typos where you accept the comment, no rationale is needed; would you like me to clarify explicitly?
  247. # [10:09] <othermaciej> hsivonen: it doesn't have to - that's a suggestion
  248. # [10:09] <Hixie> othermaciej: nah, just curious
  249. # [10:10] <hsivonen> othermaciej: also, sample spec text needs to be rewritten anyway to wash away copyright
  250. # [10:11] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I can remove that part of the suggestion, but in some cases, short pieces of sample spec text have been useful to Hixie
  251. # [10:11] <othermaciej> e.g. the XPath issue
  252. # [10:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: oh, OK. in general Hixie has discouraged spec text
  253. # [10:11] <Hixie> the XPath issue was a very rare exception
  254. # [10:11] <othermaciej> I can imagine that in many cases they'll be useful for Manu's HTML+RDFa draft as well
  255. # [10:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok
  256. # [10:11] <othermaciej> this policy is meant to apply to all deliverables that reach at least Working Draft status
  257. # [10:12] <Hixie> (with the XPath issue, what happened is that the commentor disagreed on an editorial basis, and I couldn't work out why without seeing what they thought was the right answer.)
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  259. # [10:13] <hsivonen> othermaciej: is Bugzilla flexible enough to let bug reporters change state to CLOSED?
  260. # [10:14] <hsivonen> othermaciej: also, this doesn't cover anonymous comments from the WHATWG system
  261. # [10:14] <othermaciej> hsivonen: if you make an anonymous comment, then it is your choice to either identify yourself in the bug or let it stay in VERIFY whatever the resolution
  262. # [10:15] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think you need a cutoff timeout for 5.b. Otherwise, there will be huge permathreads on when we can stop waiting.
  263. # [10:15] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I am sure MikeSmith can do the necessary bugzilla magic, but if not we can tweak that step
  264. # [10:15] <othermaciej> hsivonen: all right - I recommend giving that feedback on the list after I post this
  265. # [10:15] <othermaciej> (don't want to make substantial changes right now)
  266. # [10:15] <othermaciej> Philip` made the same point and I agree
  267. # [10:16] <hsivonen> If I make that point on the list, there's a risk of a huge permathread right there
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  269. # [10:17] <othermaciej> I'm inclined to say you get a month to reply to the editor's disposition but I don't want to change it right now since my co-chairs signed off on the substance of what is there now
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  271. # [10:18] <Hixie> what's 5b?
  272. # [10:18] <Hixie> isn't that the "nobody replied" state?
  273. # [10:18] <othermaciej> yes
  274. # [10:19] <Hixie> there's no point having a cut-off for that -- someone not replying until after the cut-off is the same as someone filing a new bug
  275. # [10:19] <Hixie> in fact in general there's no difference between someone disagreeing and someone filing a new bug
  276. # [10:19] <Hixie> so there's no point having a cut-off
  277. # [10:21] <hsivonen> in that case, there should be some mechanism for deflecting dupes
  278. # [10:22] <Dashiva> Is there a consistent meaning to squares, diamonds and ovals?
  279. # [10:22] <othermaciej> dupes should be resolved DUPLICATE unless they contain new information
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  281. # [10:23] <othermaciej> rounded rects are start or end points, rectangles are process steps, diamonds are decisions
  282. # [10:23] <othermaciej> per standard flowchart usage
  283. # [10:23] * Philip` notes that the change proposal deadline doesn't particularly important, because you could always raise an identical issue months later and attach your change proposal
  284. # [10:23] <Philip`> s/doesn't/doesn't seem/
  285. # [10:23] <Dashiva> Escalation step 2b doesn't seem like a decision
  286. # [10:24] <othermaciej> oh that's because I forgot to add an arrow pointing to 2a
  287. # [10:24] <othermaciej> fixing...
  288. # [10:26] <hsivonen> What happens if the person who escalated a bug to ISSUE is willing to settle amicably but someone else wants to stir up trouble? does the other person have to restart the whole process?
  289. # [10:27] <hsivonen> there seems to be a loophole in the case where the editor has a co-conspirator:
  290. # [10:28] * Joins: svl (n=me@g227078204.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  291. # [10:28] <othermaciej> then the issue stays RAISED and someone has to make a Change Proposal (presumably not the person who first raised it)
  292. # [10:28] <hsivonen> the co-conspirator escalates an issue, fails to produce a proposal and the issue gets closed and deferred to the next version of HTML
  293. # [10:28] <othermaciej> amicable resolution does not apply if somebody objects, but then it's up to them to drive the issue
  294. # [10:28] <Dashiva> Maybe there should be an option for bug reporters to close as INVALID if they realize they misunderstood or have been convinced in other channels?
  295. # [10:29] <Dashiva> Similar to amicable resolution in escalation
  296. # [10:29] <othermaciej> I'm assuming that is allowed, but I guess it could be spelled out more explicitly
  297. # [10:30] <othermaciej> hsivonen: what's the alternative - that someone else would have escalated it later when they had more time to write a Change Proposal?
  298. # [10:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: right
  299. # [10:30] <othermaciej> hsivonen: multiple people can volunteer to make a Change Proposal, so to do that someone would have to lie about their intent to make one and convince others that it's one they will like
  300. # [10:31] <hsivonen> othermaciej: true
  301. # [10:31] <Dashiva> Well, with the right timing, maybe the people who care are all busy with other proposals, or on vacation, or something :)
  302. # [10:32] <hsivonen> othermaciej: shouldn't Proposal Details be required to come with a copyright waiver?
  303. # [10:33] <hsivonen> or a super-permissive license, rather
  304. # [10:33] <othermaciej> I'm going to assume no one is going to escalate in bad faith - if we caught someone doing that, we'd likely treat it as a de facto amicable resolution (leaving someone else free to re-raise the issue or object or whatever)
  305. # [10:33] <othermaciej> we'd probably also have a stern talk with their AC rep
  306. # [10:33] <Hixie> what if they _are_ the AC rep? :-)
  307. # [10:34] <Hixie> (i don't understand the issue, personally. Why can't someone just write a proposal later, when they feel like it?)
  308. # [10:34] <Dashiva> What if they're an IE?
  309. # [10:34] <othermaciej> sure, anyone can write a proposal later - it can still be considered, it just won't be a blocker to wait for it
  310. # [10:34] * Quits: annevk42 (n=annevk@cm-84.215.133.38.getinternet.no) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  311. # [10:35] <hsivonen> othermaciej: oh does the decision to defer to the next version of HTML get reversed if someone else re-escaletes the same issue?
  312. # [10:36] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I guess it's not very crisply defined as written
  313. # [10:36] <Hixie> there's no way to prevent that, as far as i can see; someone can always claim that the issue they are raising is subtly different
  314. # [10:36] <Hixie> (which is fine)
  315. # [10:36] <Hixie> ok, index is checked in. File bugs if you find any. I'm going to bed. nn.
  316. # [10:37] <hsivonen> ok. in that case, the process isn't vulnerable to trying to pre-empt decision by getting them deferred but the process is vulnerable to Denial of Productivity escalation flood
  317. # [10:37] <othermaciej> Dashiva: if you don't mind saying, what's your real world name (so I can credit you for finding a mistake in my commit message)
  318. # [10:37] <hsivonen> which may be something that isn't worth fixing unless a flood happens
  319. # [10:37] <Dashiva> othermaciej: Magnus Kristiansen
  320. # [10:38] <othermaciej> hsivonen: the intent is that for your escalation flood to really have an effect, you have to do some work - someone re-raising the same timed-out issue over and over would be bad-faith behavior though, which we'd have to address if someone did it
  321. # [10:38] <hsivonen> othermaciej: OK.
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  323. # [10:38] <othermaciej> I think I'm going to mail this to public-html, if there are no more obvious typos
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  327. # [10:44] <Philip`> othermaciej: I think there's a big typo - you accidentally wrote whole pages of text, instead of "Hixie decides everything."
  328. # [10:44] <othermaciej> lol
  329. # [10:45] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  330. # [10:45] <Dashiva> So how does the process ensure that someone defined D.E. before a WG decision is made?
  331. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Dashiva: excellent point
  332. # [10:47] <zcorpan> D.E. == Dead End?
  333. # [10:47] <hsivonen> hehe
  334. # [10:51] <zcorpan> othermaciej: you have both "Full Working Group" and "full Working Group"
  335. # [10:52] <othermaciej> the Full shouldn't be capitalized
  336. # [10:52] <othermaciej> thanks
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  342. # [11:27] <gsnedders|work> Hmm, pne of the issues on Web DOM Core says, "should we remove error checking altogether?", which looks to be impossible (as that will break websites!)
  343. # [11:28] <gsnedders|work> I wonder if it's more possible to go the other way, and require the DOM to represent well-formed XML
  344. # [11:28] <gsnedders|work> The current middle-ground is just idiotic
  345. # [11:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: what site patterns rely on DOM Core error checking?
  346. # [11:28] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: I doubt it
  347. # [11:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: you can't require a DOM to be serializable without breaking L1 colon usage
  348. # [11:29] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: A lot of those that use e.g., document.createElement("<div class=foobar>") for IE rely upon that throwing an exception to have their code work in other browsers
  349. # [11:29] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Ah yeah, that's true
  350. # [11:29] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: And would break RDFa, totally :P
  351. # [11:29] <othermaciej> gsnedders|work: wait, that works in IE?
  352. # [11:29] <gsnedders|work> othermaciej: Yes.
  353. # [11:30] * othermaciej facepalms
  354. # [11:30] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: But there are downsides too, rihgt? ;)
  355. # [11:30] <gsnedders|work> othermaciej: Firefox supports it without attributes in quirks mode
  356. # [11:30] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: ouch. so we can't make that syntax work in other browsers?
  357. # [11:30] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: IIRC, Gecko had some half-way magic on that point
  358. # [11:30] <othermaciej> we've never supported anything like that in WebKit afaik
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  360. # [11:30] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: We could, but I don't like the idea of making DOM rely upon having an HTML tokenizer around
  361. # [11:30] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: does the Web expect document.createElement("<div>") to create a div element, though?
  362. # [11:30] <gsnedders|work> othermaciej: Nor does Opera. It doesn't cause any site compat issues I've found
  363. # [11:30] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: No
  364. # [11:31] <hsivonen> hmm.
  365. # [11:31] <gsnedders|work> Anyhow, lunch
  366. # [11:31] <jgraham> hsivonen: (except in IE)
  367. # [11:31] <othermaciej> if sites depended on that working and not throwing, I would expect compat bugs, since scripts unexpectedly throwing tends to cause severe failure modes
  368. # [11:33] <hsivonen> jgraham, gsnedders|work: my recollection was right. Gecko does have the half-way magic in the quirks mode
  369. # [11:33] <hsivonen> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/document/src/nsHTMLDocument.cpp#1208
  370. # [11:34] <hsivonen> if the argument starts with < and ends with >, those characters are stripped in the quirks mode before proceeding
  371. # [11:35] <othermaciej> indeed I see the code doing that
  372. # [11:36] <hsivonen> (I mentioned what the code does in case people are prohibited from looking at code on MXR.)
  373. # [11:38] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=245274
  374. # [11:38] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=245274#c7
  375. # [11:40] <jgraham> Interesting
  376. # [11:40] <jgraham> Is there other DOM stuff that depends on the quirkiness of the document?
  377. # [11:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: IIRC, yes
  378. # [11:41] <othermaciej> interesting - we never got those reports
  379. # [11:41] <othermaciej> (though we have had many bug reports from IBM on problems with their enterprise web apps)
  380. # [11:42] <jgraham> (I note in his absence that gsnedders|work found some stuff that used this to detect IE vs non IE and give them diffeent code paths)
  381. # [11:42] <jgraham> (and so broke in Gecko)
  382. # [11:42] <jgraham> (but I'm not sure how much)
  383. # [11:42] <othermaciej> wild
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  385. # [11:43] <hsivonen> getElementsByClassName()
  386. # [11:44] <hsivonen> scroll info for body
  387. # [11:45] <hsivonen> document.all
  388. # [11:45] <hsivonen> color parsing
  389. # [11:45] <hsivonen> in attribute values
  390. # [11:47] <hsivonen> various attributes in tables
  391. # [11:49] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=5274#5281
  392. # [11:50] <zcorpan> othermaciej: "These components are not absolutely mandatory for a bug reports." s/a bug/all bug/
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  394. # [11:51] <othermaciej> zcorpan: thanks
  395. # [11:51] <zcorpan> othermaciej: i thought bugs with insufficient information would be RESOLVED NEEDSINFO?
  396. # [11:51] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I guess it depends on the nature of what is missing
  397. # [11:52] <othermaciej> zcorpan: can you send that feedback to public-html please? I'd rather have substantive feedback on the list
  398. # [11:53] <zcorpan> ok
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  403. # [12:16] <gsnedders|work> othermaciej: We've never had bug reports about it either
  404. # [12:16] <gsnedders|work> As far as I can tell, Gecko's half-way state is the worst for web compat
  405. # [12:21] <jgraham> gsnedders|work: But possibly the best for intranet compat :(
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  407. # [12:30] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: How many of the quirks do you think need to be in Web DOM Core and not HTML 5?
  408. # [12:31] <othermaciej> anything specific to HTML APIs should clearly be in HTML5
  409. # [12:31] <othermaciej> core DOM quirks, I could see an argument either way
  410. # [12:31] <othermaciej> though it would be nice if DOM Core itself could be kept free of quirks-mode-specific behaviors
  411. # [12:33] <gsnedders|work> That's what I think too. I'm just trying to think of whether there are any quirks that need to be in DOM Core
  412. # [12:34] * Quits: webben (n=Adium@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) ("Leaving.")
  413. # [12:35] <gsnedders|work> The fact that neither WebKit nor Opera supports the <…> createElement fun is encouraging, though it's unclear whether intranet stuff relies upon it stil.
  414. # [12:35] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: they can all be in HTML5 if you accept the delta spec section in HTML5 that already modifies DOM Core
  415. # [12:35] <othermaciej> well that createElement quirk would be a candidate, but I'm hoping it's safe to just drop
  416. # [12:35] <othermaciej> the other things hsivonen mentioned are specific to HTML APIs I think not DOM Core APIs
  417. # [12:35] * hsivonen wonders how much IBM intranet stuff relies on IE Custom Tags
  418. # [12:36] <hsivonen> depends on whether one views document.all as HTML or Core
  419. # [12:36] <othermaciej> true; you could put document.all in Core
  420. # [12:36] <hsivonen> though one might argue that Gecko is wrong to make document.all conditional on the quirkiness
  421. # [12:36] <othermaciej> in WebKit I believe we expose undetectable document.all in all modes
  422. # [12:37] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: There's no way around having HTML 5 modify certain behaviours for HTMLDocumnent and HTMLElement AFAIK. I'd rather document.all was HTMLDocument.all
  423. # [12:37] <gsnedders|work> I really don't see any reason for that to create onto Document.all
  424. # [12:37] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: how does that help when HTML5 requires all document objects to implement HTMLDocument and SVGDocument anyway?
  425. # [12:38] <othermaciej> since HTML5 requires all document objects to implement HTMLDocument and SVGDocument, there's not much practical benefit to moving APIs from HTML5 to DOM Core
  426. # [12:38] <hsivonen> keeping Core clean and applying a delta in HTML5 reminds me of the latest TAG minutes
  427. # [12:38] <othermaciej> just a potential question for spec purity
  428. # [12:38] <othermaciej> for cases where HTML5 modifies the behavior of existing DOM Core methods, that should ideally be in DOM Core
  429. # [12:39] <othermaciej> those aren't quirks, just changes (applicable only to HTML documents)
  430. # [12:39] <gsnedders|work> othermaciej: Some of those are specific to HTML documents though
  431. # [12:39] <gsnedders|work> othermaciej: And it seems silly for those to be in DOM Core when they only apply to HTML documents
  432. # [12:39] <othermaciej> I wonder if it would be useful to expose the HTMLness bit of the Document in some more explicit way
  433. # [12:40] <othermaciej> gsnedders|work: at the very least DOM Core should be written in a way that HTML5 doesn't have to *contradict* it
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  436. # [12:40] <othermaciej> I think it would be fine to have an extension point instead of specifying html document behaviors directly
  437. # [12:40] <othermaciej> though that creates a bit more risk that things fall through the cracks between the documents
  438. # [12:41] <gsnedders|work> othermaciej: How can we avoid having HTMLDocument override things like createElement though, to do case-insensitive creation?
  439. # [12:41] <othermaciej> I think it would be fine for DOM Core to be aware of the idea of XML documents and HTML documents as different things
  440. # [12:41] <othermaciej> gsnedders|work: that's a property of being an "html document" (as opposed to an xml document), not a property of the HTMLDocument interface
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  444. # [13:01] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  445. # [13:01] * Set by annevk3 on Wed Sep 09 23:23:54
  446. # [13:02] <hsivonen> based on the test case Opera and WebKit don't do the magic
  447. # [13:02] <zcorpan> the test might be bogus for opera
  448. # [13:02] <othermaciej> we do look at the namespaceURI parameter to createDocument() to decide what document interface to create
  449. # [13:03] <othermaciej> we do not yet do the HTML5 thing of all interfaces on all documents
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  452. # [13:04] * hsivonen goes file a bug
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  456. # [13:08] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/263 has a correct test for opera
  457. # [13:09] <zcorpan> when i think about it, i'm not sure opera has the htmlness bit on the document, but has it on elements instead
  458. # [13:10] <zcorpan> uh, that test is still bogus
  459. # [13:11] <zcorpan> a HEAD element is inserted...
  460. # [13:11] * zcorpan gives up
  461. # [13:11] <gsnedders|work> Honestly, can't you write a non-bogus test?
  462. # [13:11] <zcorpan> no
  463. # [13:13] <hsivonen> ttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=520969
  464. # [13:13] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=520969
  465. # [13:15] * hsivonen wishes Congress took the Eastern District of Texas out of business already
  466. # [13:16] <hsivonen> or SCOTUS if the Congress can't get their act together
  467. # [13:16] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/264 is non-bogus for opera (but bogus for others)
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  479. # [14:25] * Philip` wonders why http://www.quirksmode.org/webkit.html includes Konqueror 3.5 in its list of WebKits
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  482. # [14:45] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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  489. # [15:11] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/html+js+css+atom.html - a file that is interpreted as html, as js, as css and as atom at the same time
  490. # [15:11] <zcorpan> works in firefox at least
  491. # [15:11] <zcorpan> the atom part doesn't seem to work in opera
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  494. # [15:13] <Rik|work> Philip`: I even wonder if Konqueror is on a phone
  495. # [15:13] <TabAtkins> Heh, interesting zcorpan.
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  497. # [15:14] <zcorpan> hmm i have a css syntax error at the end
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  501. # [15:15] <zcorpan> solved
  502. # [15:15] <jgraham> You need a hobby
  503. # [15:15] <jgraham> A better one I mean
  504. # [15:15] <Philip`> zcorpan: Make it a PNG too
  505. # [15:16] <zcorpan> Philip`: how?
  506. # [15:16] <Philip`> That's your problem, not mine :-p
  507. # [15:16] <zcorpan> i tried making it SVG too but couldn't find a way to link it in and being rendered as SVG
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  544. # [16:50] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  545. # [16:50] * Set by annevk3 on Wed Sep 09 23:23:54
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  557. # [18:00] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mark@rrcs-96-10-240-189.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  558. # [18:01] <mpilgrim> i committed a few fixes to the python3 branch of html5lib
  559. # [18:01] <mpilgrim> it crashes less now
  560. # [18:01] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  561. # [18:02] <mpilgrim> i haven't tried anything crazy like running the test suite
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  563. # [18:04] <jgraham> mpilgrim: I noticed, thanks
  564. # [18:04] <mpilgrim> what is the status of the python3 port?
  565. # [18:05] <jgraham> It was an experimental 1 weekend hack to see if it would work
  566. # [18:05] <mpilgrim> that's what i suspected
  567. # [18:05] <jgraham> It is not up to date wrt to the trunk
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  569. # [18:05] <mpilgrim> how far behind is it?
  570. # [18:06] <jgraham> More to the point I don't really know how to do parallel maintainance of the python 3 and python 2 versions without lots of manual work porting patches
  571. # [18:06] <mpilgrim> neither do i
  572. # [18:06] <jgraham> mpilgrim: A few months but not a huge amount has happened in that time
  573. # [18:06] <gsnedders> s/in/to the Python port in/
  574. # [18:07] <mpilgrim> i managed to get it to work with a string input
  575. # [18:07] <mpilgrim> i can't get it to work with a file
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  577. # [18:07] <mpilgrim> er, file object
  578. # [18:07] <jgraham> mpilgrim: I remember that I couldn't decide how to deal with file input
  579. # [18:07] <mpilgrim> it complains that binary files are not supported
  580. # [18:07] <mpilgrim> even though i opened the file in non-binary mode
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  583. # [18:07] <jgraham> hmm
  584. # [18:08] <jgraham> The problem I remember is that html5lib really really wants bytestreams
  585. # [18:08] <mpilgrim> but if i read the file myself and pass a python string to the parser, it works
  586. # [18:08] <jgraham> not files with encodings
  587. # [18:08] <jgraham> a string not a byte (whatever the name is)?
  588. # [18:08] <Philip`> Is it possible for core parts of html5lib to be written in a common subset of Pythons 2 and 3, and just use version-specific ports for the stuff around the edges?
  589. # [18:08] <Philip`> or are the differences more fundamental?
  590. # [18:09] <jgraham> Philip`: I think the differences are more non-trivial than that
  591. # [18:09] <jgraham> For example .iteritems v .items
  592. # [18:09] <mpilgrim> it might be possible to structure some of the code in such a way that it can be automatically converted to (or from) python 3
  593. # [18:10] <mpilgrim> that will cover things like syntax differences in importing relative paths within the codebase
  594. # [18:10] <mpilgrim> and print statements
  595. # [18:10] <mpilgrim> and such
  596. # [18:10] <mpilgrim> the big problem is python 2 has "strings" and "unicode strings"
  597. # [18:10] <mpilgrim> while python 3 has "bytes" and "unicode strings"
  598. # [18:11] <mpilgrim> python 2 implicitly converts between them
  599. # [18:11] <mpilgrim> python 3 does not
  600. # [18:11] <jgraham> Yeah, so like I said html5lib really wants bytes, always
  601. # [18:12] <jgraham> because it really wants to figure out the encoding on its own
  602. # [18:12] <jgraham> But then internally everything should be unicode strings
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  604. # [18:13] <gsnedders> It should cope fine with getting a Unicode string though
  605. # [18:14] <gsnedders> And should just do no decoding of any sort whatsoever
  606. # [18:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well you can't really do that and implement the spec
  607. # [18:14] <jgraham> Or maybe you can and treat it like a HTTP header
  608. # [18:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: If you already know the encoding you don't need to detect it
  609. # [18:15] <mpilgrim> well, some parts of html5lib can certainly be made python-version-independent
  610. # [18:15] <jgraham> Yeah fair enough
  611. # [18:15] <jgraham> (that was aimed at gsnedders)
  612. # [18:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: It makes no sense to do anything else with Unicode strings
  613. # [18:15] <mpilgrim> or at least automatically-convertible
  614. # [18:15] <mpilgrim> constants.py, for example, could be automatically converted
  615. # [18:16] <jgraham> mpilgrim: I think it should be possible to make most of the code except some parts of inputstream.py automatically convertable
  616. # [18:16] <jgraham> But that is just conjecture
  617. # [18:16] <gsnedders> It's being transported within memory and that has a defined encoding, so step 1 of the encoding sniffing algorithm applies.
  618. # [18:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: (I seem to remember that there was still some reason you wanted a byte array but I don't recall what it was... maybe to do with replacement characters or something?)
  619. # [18:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: That was in PHP, no?
  620. # [18:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
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  623. # [18:33] <mpilgrim> html5lib/utils.py can be safely auto-converted
  624. # [18:34] <mpilgrim> grr
  625. # [18:34] <mpilgrim> html5lib/constants.py contains some strings that are later used in %-replacement string formatting
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  628. # [18:36] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: did you hear from someone about trouble with bugzilla account?
  629. # [18:37] <mpilgrim> html5lib/ihatexml.py can be safely auto-converted
  630. # [18:39] <jgraham> mpilgrim: Do the strings correspond to the error messages? I'm not sure that feature provides much value
  631. # [18:39] <mpilgrim> python3/html5lib/sanitizer.py appears to be out of date, but i think it can be safely auto-converted too
  632. # [18:39] <mpilgrim> yes
  633. # [18:39] <mpilgrim> there are strings like
  634. # [18:39] <mpilgrim> "cant-convert-numeric-entity":
  635. # [18:39] <mpilgrim> _(u"Numeric entity couldn't be converted to character "
  636. # [18:39] <mpilgrim> u"(codepoint U+%(charAsInt)08x)."),
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  638. # [18:40] <mpilgrim> and others like
  639. # [18:40] <mpilgrim> "expected-closing-tag-but-got-char":
  640. # [18:40] <mpilgrim> _(u"Expected closing tag. Unexpected character '%(data)s' found."),
  641. # [18:40] <mpilgrim> basically, search the file for occurrences of the "%" character
  642. # [18:40] <mpilgrim> some of them do provide quite a bit of value
  643. # [18:40] <mpilgrim> for example:
  644. # [18:40] <mpilgrim> "unexpected-end-tag":
  645. # [18:40] <mpilgrim> _(u"Unexpected end tag (%(name)s). Ignored."),
  646. # [18:41] <mpilgrim> i don't want to strip that information
  647. # [18:41] <mpilgrim> but string formatting in py3 is completely different
  648. # [18:42] <jgraham> Well it is not impossible to make some compatibility function for templating in either language
  649. # [18:42] * Philip` wonders when an HTML WG telcon announcement email last got all the dates and times correct
  650. # [18:43] <Philip`> (or even just self-consistent)
  651. # [18:45] <mpilgrim> python3/html5lib/tokenizer.py is badly out of date
  652. # [18:45] <mpilgrim> but as far as i can tell, it only deals with unicode strings
  653. # [18:45] * paul_irish__ is now known as paul_irish_____
  654. # [18:47] <mpilgrim> html5lib/tokenizer.py contains this line:
  655. # [18:47] <mpilgrim> char = eval("u'\\U%08x'" % charAsInt)
  656. # [18:47] <mpilgrim> which is quite funky and will fail in py3
  657. # [18:47] <mpilgrim> and will not be auto-converted to anything useful
  658. # [18:48] <mpilgrim> perhaps we can split that out into a separate function in a separate file
  659. # [18:48] <mpilgrim> because other than that, i believe tokenizer.py can be safely auto-converted
  660. # [18:49] <jgraham> That could probably be rewritten not to use string formatting
  661. # [18:49] <mpilgrim> or eval
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  664. # [18:49] <jgraham> Yeah :)
  665. # [18:50] * jgraham wonders who wrote that code in the first place
  666. # [18:50] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure it wasn't me
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  668. # [18:50] <mpilgrim> html5parser.py is too badly out of date for me to tell whether auto-conversion would work
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  670. # [18:53] <mpilgrim> actually, the old-style string formatting still works in python 3.1
  671. # [18:53] <mpilgrim> it's just deprecated
  672. # [18:53] <mpilgrim> so we can ignore the problems in constants.py, for now
  673. # [18:53] <mpilgrim> (though that eval still wouldn't work, since it uses the u"" form that no longer exists)
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  675. # [18:55] <mpilgrim> html5lib/filters/* can all be safely auto-converted
  676. # [18:55] <mpilgrim> (lint.py uses %-style string formatting though)
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  679. # [19:00] <mpilgrim> html5lib/serializer/htmlserializer.py contains a call to reduce()
  680. # [19:00] <mpilgrim> which should probably be rewritten with a for loop
  681. # [19:01] <mpilgrim> after which, html5lib/serializer/* could be safely auto-converted
  682. # [19:02] <mpilgrim> html5lib/treebuilders/__init__.py contains several import statements not on the top level
  683. # [19:02] <mpilgrim> those do not get auto-converted by 2to3
  684. # [19:03] <Dashiva> reduce is gone?
  685. # [19:03] <Dashiva> I'm so out of it
  686. # [19:03] <mpilgrim> Dashiva: http://diveintopython3.org/porting-code-to-python-3-with-2to3.html#reduce
  687. # [19:03] <mpilgrim> and those import statements are broken in py3
  688. # [19:04] <mpilgrim> they need to be rewritten using the new syntax for relative imports
  689. # [19:04] <mpilgrim> but since they're not at the top level of the module, 2to3 won't rewrite them
  690. # [19:04] <mpilgrim> not sure what to do about that, except fork it
  691. # [19:04] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  692. # [19:05] <Philip`> Write a custom preprocessor
  693. # [19:06] <mpilgrim> not sure it's worth it
  694. # [19:07] <mpilgrim> html5lib/treebuilders/_base.py can be safely auto-converted
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  697. # [19:10] <mpilgrim> treebuilders/dom.py is out of date, but i believe it can be safely auto-converted
  698. # [19:12] <mpilgrim> treebuilders/etree.py is out of date, and it uses %-style string formatting, but i believe it can be safely auto-converted
  699. # [19:14] <mpilgrim> treebuilders/etree_lxml.py is out of date, and it uses %-style string formatting, but i believe it can be safely auto-converted
  700. # [19:14] <mpilgrim> i'm not entirely sure though
  701. # [19:15] <mpilgrim> it has some relative imports that 2to3 might choke on
  702. # [19:15] <zcorpan_> wouldn't the justgiving example in http://html5doctor.com/measure-up-with-the-meter-tag/ use <progress>?
  703. # [19:16] <mpilgrim> treebuilders/simpletree.py can be safely auto-converted
  704. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: Yeah, that's a <progress>.
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  706. # [19:19] <zcorpan_> what do people think should happen for data:text/xml,<!DOCTYPE x [<?xml-stylesheet href='data:text/css,x{background:papayawip}'?>]><x/>
  707. # [19:19] <mpilgrim> treebuilders/soup.py is out of date, and it uses %-style string formatting, but i believe i can be safely auto-converted
  708. # [19:19] <zcorpan_> xml-stylesheet 1st ed says it should be applied
  709. # [19:20] <zcorpan_> ie and webkit apply it, firefox and opera don't
  710. # [19:20] <zcorpan_> s/papayawip/papayawhip/
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  716. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: I don't see any particular reason to think it shouldn't be applied. Is the issue the nesting of data: urls, or just whether or not xml-stylesheet should accept data: urls?
  717. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> (In either case, I think it should be fine.)
  718. # [19:31] <jgraham> mpilgrim: To find out just what can't be auto-converted it might be better to start from the python 2 trunk -- except inputstream.py -- 2to3 everything else, see where things break, and try to fix up the python 2 source so they don't break anymore
  719. # [19:31] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins: no, the question is whether a PI in the internal subset should be applied as an xml-stylesheet PI for the document
  720. # [19:32] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins: or whether it should be ignored
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  725. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: Oh, okay. Sorry for the noise then. I have no opinion.
  726. # [19:38] <zcorpan_> ok
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  729. # [19:50] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Why would it be ignored?
  730. # [19:50] * Philip` doesn't see why it'd be different to e.g. inserting a <style> element via the internal subset
  731. # [19:51] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you can't have elements in the internal subset
  732. # [19:52] <zcorpan_> you can have an entity declaration in the internal subset and then an entity reference somewhere that expands to a <style> element, but that's not the same thing
  733. # [19:53] <Philip`> Oh
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  735. # [19:56] <zcorpan_> PIs in the internal subset are not represented in the DOM at all, other than part of the internalSubset attribute which is just a DOMString
  736. # [19:56] <zcorpan_> (which is tentatively dropped in web dom core)
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  740. # [20:02] <mpilgrim> jgraham: yeah, i was expecting more breakage than i found looking through diffs
  741. # [20:02] * fishd_ is now known as fishd
  742. # [20:11] <zcorpan_> if someone can find any content that uses an xml-stylesheet PI in the internal (or external) subset, or can provide data about lack of such content, i would appreciate it
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  744. # [20:13] * Philip` can't, since he can barely even find page that use XHTML
  745. # [20:13] <Philip`> *pages
  746. # [20:14] <borismus> /j cmu
  747. # [20:14] <erlehmann> my page does. and occasionally breaks
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  751. # [20:16] <Philip`> erlehmann: Your site is http://blog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/ ?
  752. # [20:16] <Philip`> Even http://blog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/?s=cheese breaks
  753. # [20:16] <Philip`> never mind http://blog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/?s=%ef%bf%bf
  754. # [20:16] <erlehmann> every search term breaks it. havent updated the theme for a while.
  755. # [20:17] <Philip`> The second one breaks it more than the first, though :-p
  756. # [20:18] <erlehmann> damn wordpress
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  758. # [20:18] <Philip`> erlehmann: Blame XML
  759. # [20:18] <Philip`> It makes these things far too complex
  760. # [20:19] <erlehmann> no i dont.
  761. # [20:19] <erlehmann> u just haven't got a good token-thingy
  762. # [20:19] <erlehmann> hopefully html5lib will change that
  763. # [20:20] <erlehmann> but the theme devs as well as wordpress devs CLAIMED it could do xhtml
  764. # [20:20] * Philip` wouldn't mind draconian error handling of element syntax and nesting, because that's pretty trivial to get right; it's just the obscure little edge cases of invalid characters or forbidden sequences of characters or forbidden names or forbidden attribute values that are a huge pain to protect against
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  782. # [21:08] * zcorpan_ doesn't see an internal subset in http://blog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/
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  784. # [21:17] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I think he just meant his page uses XHTML
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  806. # [22:05] <tantek> greetings - anybody here know who has admin privs on http://wiki.whatwg.org/ ?
  807. # [22:05] <tantek> there's been a couple of spam pages added (see http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges ) and I'd like to help out by deleting them and blocking the spammers
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  816. # [22:31] <jgraham> tantek: I don't. I seem o recall that Lachy does but he is away. Hixie does too of course
  817. # [22:31] <tantek> thanks jgraham.
  818. # [22:32] <tantek> Hixie, Lachy, there's been a couple of spam pages added (see http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges ) and I'd like to help out by volunteering to be a wiki admin to delete and block spammers.
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  838. # Session Close: Thu Oct 08 00:00:00 2009

The end :)