/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 10 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:15] <jgraham> Philip`: gcj can't cross compile?
  7. # [00:16] <Philip`> jgraham: It can, but it fails when linking with -lgcj because it can only find 64-bit libraries
  8. # [00:16] <Philip`> (because I don't have 32-bit ones installed)
  9. # [00:16] <jgraham> Couldn't you install the 32bit ones?
  10. # [00:17] <Philip`> No
  11. # [00:17] <Philip`> I just do "emerge gcc" and it does whatever it wants, which seemingly doesn't involve installing 32-bit gcj libraries
  12. # [00:17] <Philip`> and I don't fancy doing anything more complex than that
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  17. # [00:46] <Philip`> Why does lxml's XMLParser seem to think the document consists solely of the <head> element?
  18. # [00:47] <Dashiva> Is there a <html> element?
  19. # [00:47] <Philip`> Yes
  20. # [00:47] <Philip`> There's a <body> element too
  21. # [00:47] <Philip`> but doc.find('body') returns None
  22. # [00:48] * Philip` gives up trying to fix the spec-splitter properly, and just uses lxml's HTMLParser with recover=True and hopes it doesn't misparse anything seriously
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  89. # [03:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: yt?
  90. # [03:27] <othermaciej> hey Hixie
  91. # [03:27] <Hixie> did you say webkit had plans to do something about blocking script on stylesheets?
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  93. # [03:28] <othermaciej> I believe we currently block script execution when there are pending stylesheets
  94. # [03:28] <othermaciej> I believe that has been true since shortly after we added speculative loading of scripts
  95. # [03:29] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/script-style-blocking/001.html says otherwise
  96. # [03:30] <othermaciej> I could be mis-remembering
  97. # [03:30] <othermaciej> or it could be buggy (though that case seems exceptionally simple)
  98. # [03:30] <othermaciej> it's possible we only block external scripts on stylesheets, even though that would be really stupid
  99. # [03:30] <Hixie> hm, let me test externals only
  100. # [03:31] <Hixie> ooh, yes, that blocked
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  102. # [03:33] <othermaciej> so yeah, that's kinda dumb - not sure if it was intentional
  103. # [03:36] <Hixie> i'm concerned about http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/script-style-blocking/002.html if we make internals block also
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  109. # [04:15] <mpilgrim> any opera employees around?
  110. # [04:15] <mpilgrim> i am aware that http://diveintohtml5.org/ renders very badly in Opera 10.0.0
  111. # [04:15] <mpilgrim> due to wacky rendering of embedded fonts
  112. # [04:16] <mpilgrim> i wonder if there is something i can do to fix my fonts, or if there is something y'all can do to fix opera, or some combination of both
  113. # [04:17] <mpilgrim> an opera user sent me this (unconfirmed) report: "I got some further information about the bug. It would appear that the styles are only properly applied to the first document if I open multiple tabs. As long as I look at the documents one by one, the styles work fine."
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  125. # [05:39] * Hixie wishes someone would take over CSSOM already
  126. # [05:39] <Hixie> not having someone working on CSSOM is really making my life harder
  127. # [05:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: concerned in what way (about that test case)
  128. # [05:46] <Hixie> bz and i talked it out
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  206. # [11:19] <Hixie> !@#^&*
  207. # [11:20] <Hixie> HTTP "Link:" headers screw me over again
  208. # [11:20] <Hixie> i hate that Mark refuses to define their processing model
  209. # [11:21] <Hixie> it leaves them in a dumb limbo with no spec that defines their interaction with other features like html parsing
  210. # [11:21] <Hixie> not that xml-stylesheet does much better
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  212. # [11:23] <othermaciej> what did Link do to you?
  213. # [11:23] <Hixie> how am i suppose to define how they block <script> processing?
  214. # [11:23] <Hixie> there's no spec that actually makes them part of the CSSOM model
  215. # [11:24] <othermaciej> do browsers actually support loading a stylesheet via a Link header?
  216. # [11:24] * Quits: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186) ("Leaving.")
  217. # [11:24] <Hixie> firefox does
  218. # [11:24] <Hixie> i wish other browsers would :-)
  219. # [11:25] * Joins: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn)
  220. # [11:25] <othermaciej> sure, I'd love to implement a feature that's complicated, useless, and has no spec that defines processing requirements
  221. # [11:29] <Hixie> it's not useless
  222. # [11:29] <Hixie> i actually used it just the other day with the microdata study
  223. # [11:32] <othermaciej> what are the use cases for using the Link header to apply a stylesheet (or really for any other purpose) that are not served by <link rel="stylesheet">?
  224. # [11:33] * Joins: stevierabie (n=steviera@c122-106-227-19.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
  225. # [11:33] <stevierabie> when us html5 out
  226. # [11:33] <othermaciej> I'm going to assume the cases where you cannot under any circumstances alter the document fail the 80/20 rule
  227. # [11:34] <Hixie> othermaciej: what are the use cases for using a <link> header to apply a style sheet that are not served by <style>@import ?
  228. # [11:34] <Hixie> othermaciej: Link: lets you apply a style sheet to a whole site with one line in an .htaccess file
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  230. # [11:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: with the microdata study, I used a Link: header and a data: URL to style <img> elements without having to include anything into the files that would interfere with the study, for instance
  231. # [11:35] <Hixie> stevierabie: what do you mean by "out"? it's been public since we started, at http://whatwg.org/html5
  232. # [11:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: whether <link> has an independent use case from @import is no longer a relevant consideration, since it is required for compatibility
  233. # [11:36] <Hixie> (Link: is also useful as a hack for applying styles to text/plain documents, but that's probably not something i'd want to advertise. :-) )
  234. # [11:36] <othermaciej> that sounds like a bug
  235. # [11:37] <Hixie> HTML5 defines the DOM that text/plain files generate in browsers
  236. # [11:37] <Hixie> so not really
  237. # [11:39] * gavin__ is now known as gavin
  238. # [11:39] <othermaciej> I remember back in the day when we discovered for Safari that we had to generate an HTML DOM for plain text files
  239. # [11:39] <othermaciej> for compatibility
  240. # [11:39] <othermaciej> that was a sad day
  241. # [11:39] <Hixie> hehe
  242. # [11:40] <othermaciej> does HTML5 require making a DOM for images or plugin content as a top-level resource?
  243. # [11:40] <Hixie> yes
  244. # [11:40] <othermaciej> we do it in that case too, though not yet for PDF
  245. # [11:41] <Hixie> there are certain dispensations for cases like PDF
  246. # [11:41] <Hixie> though i think you have to have a Document in all cases, even if it's a fake one
  247. # [11:42] <Hixie> i wonder if <?xml-stylesheet?> is the target of a 'load' event when its style sheet loads
  248. # [11:42] <Hixie> anyone know?
  249. # [11:45] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1193-ipbf5203marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  250. # [11:47] <othermaciej> it does not appear to dispatch a "load" event in WebKit
  251. # [11:47] <Hixie> k
  252. # [11:47] <othermaciej> (though, oddly, hyatt made it dispatch the "beforeload" thing he came up with)
  253. # [11:47] <Hixie> thanks
  254. # [11:47] * gavin would be surprised if it did in gecko
  255. # [11:47] <Hixie> beforeload?
  256. # [11:47] <othermaciej> it should probably dispatch "load"
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  258. # [11:48] <othermaciej> I wonder if "beforeload" matches the semantics of any of the Progress Events
  259. # [11:48] <othermaciej> in which case I should suggest he change it
  260. # [11:48] * Hixie added this to the Companion Specs wiki page
  261. # [11:49] <othermaciej> it's dispatched before an element starts loading, you can preventDefault() on it to stop the load
  262. # [11:50] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  263. # [11:50] <othermaciej> intended for scripts that want to alter the behavior of sites to prevent certain kinds of content from loading
  264. # [11:50] <othermaciej> I should propose it for Progress Events
  265. # [11:50] <Hixie> sounds like it would add a lot of complexity
  266. # [11:50] <Hixie> to the spec
  267. # [11:51] <othermaciej> making loadstart cancelable would be sufficient
  268. # [11:51] <othermaciej> bizzarely, the current Editor's Draft of Progress Events does not define whether the events bubble or are cancelable
  269. # [11:53] * Quits: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@c83-252-232-119.bredband.comhem.se)
  270. # [11:53] <othermaciej> so I guess making loadstart cancelable would be a suggestion for HTML5, not Progress Events
  271. # [11:54] * Joins: sebmarkbage (n=miranda@c29.a108.sto.bahnhof.net)
  272. # [11:54] <Hixie> i don't really understand progress events
  273. # [11:54] <othermaciej> is it a suggestion I should make (in which case I'd ask hyatt to get rid of "beforeload") or should we keep our nonstandard thing for now?
  274. # [11:54] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, it should just define the interface, and suggest a few event names
  275. # [11:54] <othermaciej> Progress Events has a weird combination of exacting detailed requirements and totally undefined things
  276. # [11:54] <Hixie> but instead it has a ton of requirements i don't understand
  277. # [11:54] <Hixie> yeah
  278. # [11:54] <Hixie> you should send review comments
  279. # [11:55] <Hixie> chaals hasn't been very responsive to my own
  280. # [11:55] <Hixie> but virtually nobody else has sent him review comments
  281. # [11:55] <othermaciej> I sent a bunch long ago
  282. # [11:55] <Hixie> re beforeload, i would like to defer new features like that from html5 at this stage
  283. # [11:55] <othermaciej> maybe it could use a fresh round of review
  284. # [11:55] <Hixie> but it could make sense for html6
  285. # [11:55] <othermaciej> I don't want to suggest adding beforeload to html5
  286. # [11:56] <othermaciej> but I would consider suggesting making "loadstart" cancelable in HTML5, if you thought that was a reasonable option
  287. # [11:56] <othermaciej> (in which case we'd get rid of "beforeload")
  288. # [11:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: so should I file a bug that suggests making "loadstart" cancelable, or is that a dumb idea?
  289. # [11:59] <othermaciej> or I can just file the bug and wait for the answer if you are not sure right now
  290. # [12:00] <othermaciej> hmm, it looks like loadstart only applies to media elements in HTML5
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  293. # [12:05] <annevk42> fwiw, there were a bunch of comments on posts stuck in moderation (in particular for "Usability testing HTML5") -- I just approved them
  294. # [12:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: the name of the event doesn't really matter to me, i just meant the feature :-)
  295. # [12:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: i only fire progress events for media elements at the moment (and for appcache, but there i'm totally violating the progress events spec anyway)
  296. # [12:08] <othermaciej> Hixie: the reason I bring up the name is that HTML5 currently renders it noncomforming to make "loadstart" cancelable, so we have to introduce a new event
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  300. # [12:22] * gsnedders_ ponders why he cannot get any WHATWG email
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  303. # [12:25] <annevk42> othermaciej, fwiw, version is not new; it was a deprecated feature of HTML4 iirc
  304. # [12:26] <othermaciej> ah, you're right
  305. # [12:26] <othermaciej> although HTML4 does not define the syntax
  306. # [12:26] <othermaciej> and I'm not sure what the pre-HTML4 syntax was
  307. # [12:27] <othermaciej> what it said was: "The value of this attribute specifies which HTML DTD version governs the current document. This attribute has been deprecated because it is redundant with version information provided by the document type declaration."
  308. # [12:27] * Quits: riven (n=colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  309. # [12:27] <othermaciej> that's obviously not applicable to HTML5 though and does not seem to be what the new version attribute does
  310. # [12:28] * Quits: webben (n=benh@213-152-32-107.dsl.eclipse.net.uk) (Remote closed the connection)
  311. # [12:28] <annevk42> yeah, it's a bit sad that every now and then people try to invent some kind of versioning for the Web
  312. # [12:28] <othermaciej> HTML3.2 does not seem to have a version attribute
  313. # [12:28] <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't really see the use case for canceling loadstart on <video> or appcache
  314. # [12:29] <othermaciej> was it added to HTML4 and immediately deprecated?
  315. # [12:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: it's that same as our use case for beforeload, namely to give script that may not be closely tied to the site to prevent a resource from loading
  316. # [12:30] <othermaciej> though granted, much more likely uses will be for <script>, <object> and <img>
  317. # [12:31] <Hixie> why doesn't it just remove the element
  318. # [12:32] <annevk42> othermaciej, it seems it was part of the HTML 3.2 DTD at least
  319. # [12:32] <othermaciej> how would it be able to find out about the element soon enough? mutation events don't fire during parsing
  320. # [12:33] <othermaciej> maybe I misread the DTD
  321. # [12:34] <Hixie> annevk42: how much do i need to pay you to get you to work on CSSOM? :-)
  322. # [12:35] <Hixie> oh hey, CSSOM has a section on Link:, awesome
  323. # [12:35] <othermaciej> I see, its in the DTD for HTML 3.2 but not documented at all in prose
  324. # [12:35] <othermaciej> and OMG, HTML 3.2 makes HTML 4.01 look like a good spec
  325. # [12:36] <othermaciej> it is documented in HTML 3.0 and says "This is fixed by the DTD as the string "-//W3O//DTD W3 HTML 3.0//EN""
  326. # [12:37] <annevk42> Hixie, I guess I should get back to it after XHR/CORS are somewhat more stable
  327. # [12:37] <Hixie> annevk42: oooh
  328. # [12:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: why are we even still talking about versioning
  329. # [12:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: didn't we throw that out half a decade ago?
  330. # [12:37] <annevk42> not everyone got the memo :/
  331. # [12:38] <Hixie> sigh
  332. # [12:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: it was not my idea to make a spec supposedly for the profile attribute where 90% of the content is about the version attribute
  333. # [12:40] <annevk42> Hixie, did you ever discuss CORS with Mark Miller?
  334. # [12:40] <Hixie> yes, but i never really understood what his concern was
  335. # [12:40] <othermaciej> what does #FIXED in a DTD mean?
  336. # [12:41] <Hixie> othermaciej: that the attribute is optional but if present must have the given value
  337. # [12:41] <Hixie> othermaciej: and that the attribute has the given value even if omitted
  338. # [12:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think Mark Miller hates origin-based security and loves capabilities-based security
  339. # [12:41] <Hixie> that is certainly the case
  340. # [12:41] <Hixie> but the web is origin-based
  341. # [12:42] <othermaciej> I think that is the root of his concern about CORS
  342. # [12:42] <othermaciej> retrofitting capabilities-based security on the web seems like a fool's errand
  343. # [12:42] <Hixie> seems more dangerous to have a hybrid model than a single bad model
  344. # [12:42] <othermaciej> I wonder how things like Caja and ADSafe enable content to get added to the DOM
  345. # [12:43] <othermaciej> it seems almost impossible to make a safe capabilities facade on top of the DOM
  346. # [12:43] <Hixie> nah, it's pretty easy
  347. # [12:43] <Hixie> but you can't do it with existing web content
  348. # [12:44] <othermaciej> if you're willing to have your facade not look anything like the DOM API that exists today, then sure
  349. # [12:44] * Joins: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  350. # [12:44] <Hixie> right
  351. # [12:44] <othermaciej> ADSAFE seems to essentially expose a postMessage-like interface for injected content to interact with the page
  352. # [12:45] <othermaciej> it seems like it would be easier (and possibly safer) to just use an iframe and postMessage
  353. # [12:45] <annevk42> it does seem like most sites and such move to a capability-based model with OAuth
  354. # [12:46] <othermaciej> OAuth is not the kind of object-capability scheme that Mark Miller (and Doug Crockford) are interested in
  355. # [12:47] * Joins: webben (n=benh@213-152-32-107.dsl.eclipse.net.uk)
  356. # [12:48] <othermaciej> I'm trying to figure out what OAuth actually does, from the spec
  357. # [12:48] <othermaciej> is it expected that you make the OAuth authorization request from the server side?
  358. # [12:49] <annevk42> though it seems to me you can do the things they want on top of CORS if you just view CORS as necessary infrastructure
  359. # [12:49] <othermaciej> i.e. it's a server-to-server cross-site scheme?
  360. # [12:50] <othermaciej> the spec doesn't say, but it looks like it has to be
  361. # [12:50] <annevk42> are you sure it's not what they're talking about?
  362. # [12:51] <annevk42> the example Tyler gave looks a lot like the OAuth abstract example
  363. # [12:51] <othermaciej> oh, I'm not saying Mark Miller doesn't like OAuth (I have no idea), just that it's not an object-capability scheme
  364. # [12:51] <annevk42> I'm not very familiar with OAuth myself unfortunately
  365. # [12:51] <othermaciej> as far as I can tell, it's a way of formalizing one-time secret tokens
  366. # [12:52] <othermaciej> I don't think OAuth is implementable on the client on top of XHR+CORS
  367. # [12:52] <othermaciej> because it requires the service provider and consumer to have a shared secret which is used in the protocol, and you can't be sending out your shared secret in client-side JS
  368. # [12:54] <stevierabie> lol
  369. # [12:54] <stevierabie> :D
  370. # [12:54] <stevierabie> :|
  371. # [12:54] <othermaciej> CORS would replace the use of a consumer secret with the Origin header plus something to verify that the request is coming from the user's browser (e.g. a cookie)
  372. # [12:57] <othermaciej> you also have to sign requests with an RSA private key
  373. # [12:57] <annevk42> they're no fan of cookies either
  374. # [12:58] <othermaciej> OAuth as designed seems to require server-to-server communication for cross-site requests
  375. # [12:58] <othermaciej> I'm not sure how you would apply this model to a client-to-server cross-site mechanism
  376. # [13:00] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1193-ipbf5203marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  377. # [13:07] <annevk42> It seems like use stuff such as ADSafe and Caja is also solved by sandboxed iframes
  378. # [13:07] <annevk42> it would actually be good to get that implemented
  379. # [13:08] <annevk42> though if only a few browsers do it there's less of a benefit of course
  380. # [13:11] * Joins: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV)
  381. # [13:20] <othermaciej> I don't think I really understand how Caja works
  382. # [13:24] <othermaciej> omg it really does have a DOM wrapper
  383. # [13:27] <Hixie> doesn't it have to?
  384. # [13:28] <annevk42> I'm always somewhat worried that CORS is completely the wrong solution. It is certainly a lot more complex than desired. But then the critique has been vague and not quite compelling...
  385. # [13:30] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Z893d.z.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
  386. # [13:30] <Hixie> as maciej said earlier, the critique has been basically "the web's security model sucks"
  387. # [13:30] <Hixie> which is true
  388. # [13:30] <Hixie> but doesn't do much to help us come up with a solution
  389. # [13:31] <annevk42> an alternative model I could imagine is that you do not have the origin and the server simply states whether it accepts cross-origin requests
  390. # [13:32] <annevk42> and there's never cookies or authentication involved I guess
  391. # [13:32] <Hixie> then how do you do things on behalf of the user?
  392. # [13:33] <annevk42> with some key exchange I suppose
  393. # [13:33] <Hixie> if you can't send cookies to the third party site, how do you do that?
  394. # [13:33] <Hixie> even things like openid rely on being able to send cookies to teh third party host, though they do it at the top level or in iframes, not with XHR
  395. # [13:34] <othermaciej> omg, Caja actually has its own HTML parser
  396. # [13:34] <Hixie> is it html5-compliant?
  397. # [13:35] <othermaciej> I'm pretty sure it's not
  398. # [13:36] <othermaciej> I do see a comment: "TODO(mikesamuel): validate sanitizer regexs against the HTML5 grammar"
  399. # [13:36] <Hixie> they use regexps?!
  400. # [13:36] <othermaciej> so it seems
  401. # [13:37] <Hixie> jesus, making style sheets block scripts in the parser is turning into quite the gigantic rewrite
  402. # [13:39] * Joins: ivan` (n=ivan@li14-39.members.linode.com)
  403. # [13:41] <Hixie> well i'm sure glad English supports continuations
  404. # [13:42] <Hixie> it's gonna make describing how to spin an event loop while waiting for something a lot easier
  405. # [13:45] <annevk42> for algorithms like this I certainly don't envy the person trying to test it
  406. # [13:45] <Hixie> actually testing that is relatively easy, compared to implementing it
  407. # [13:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: how is waiting for style sheets any different than waiting for the script itself (in the external script case)?
  408. # [13:47] <gsnedders_> annevk42, jgraham: get my email?
  409. # [13:47] <othermaciej> Caja also has a CSS parser (for style= values) which amounts to splitting on ; and then splitting on :
  410. # [13:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: i have to trigger the run based on either the last style sheet completing its fetching algorithm _or_ the script completing _its_, whichever comes last
  411. # [13:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: also, i'm taking this opportunity to change the way the parser is specified so that it doesn't hang the browser while waiting for the script to load
  412. # [13:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: but instead spins the event loop while waiting
  413. # [13:48] <stevierabie> SHUT UP
  414. # [13:48] <stevierabie> plz
  415. # [13:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: (that's a big part of the rewrite)
  416. # [13:48] <annevk42> gsnedders_, I did; so no movie?
  417. # [13:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: all you have to do is test for whether execution can continue when the script finishes loading, and every time a stylesheet finishes loading
  418. # [13:48] <Hixie> stevierabie: hm?
  419. # [13:48] <gsnedders_> annevk42: right
  420. # [13:48] <stevierabie> lol
  421. # [13:48] <annevk42> gsnedders_ :/
  422. # [13:48] <gsnedders_> annevk42: Unless you want to see something else
  423. # [13:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: ah, that would be a major bug in the old way it was specified
  424. # [13:48] <annevk42> gsnedders_, I've no idea what they're showing
  425. # [13:49] <annevk42> gsnedders_, we could maybe do movie/food here at Arjan's place
  426. # [13:49] <gsnedders_> annevk42: Dunno if jgraham knows where that is though
  427. # [13:49] <annevk42> gsnedders_, he's still a bit sleepy though, but prolly up for it
  428. # [13:49] <Hixie> othermaciej: "all you have to do" makes it sound easy, but it's a lot harder to have two different tasks trigger something to resume rather than just having no task at all and hanging until something is ready :-)
  429. # [13:49] <annevk42> gsnedders_, are you at jgraham's place?
  430. # [13:50] <gsnedders_> annevk42: No, but I'm quite close to it
  431. # [13:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: well the hanging was a bug anyway
  432. # [13:50] <annevk42> Arjan's place is downtown, real easy to find
  433. # [13:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: indeed
  434. # [13:50] <othermaciej> fixing the hanging is the only plausibly hard part
  435. # [13:51] <othermaciej> having two tasks trigger something instead of one just needs state
  436. # [13:51] <othermaciej> (i.e. each task updates state, checks the other's output state, and resumes if both things are complete)
  437. # [13:51] <gsnedders_> annevk42: Yeah, I know where it is. Been there before.
  438. # [13:51] <gsnedders_> annevk42: Coco - livet före Chanel, Det enda rationella, Fame, Flickan som lekte med elden, Harry Potter och halvblodspri, Inglourious Basterds, Julie & Julia, Kalas Alfons!, Michael Jackson's - This is it, Surrogates, Taking Woodstock, The Ugly Truth, Äntligen Midsommar!
  439. # [13:51] <gsnedders_> annevk42: That's what's on
  440. # [13:52] <othermaciej> I wonder if hsivonen implemented hanging in Mozilla's html5 parser
  441. # [13:52] <othermaciej> I can't imagine he did
  442. # [13:52] <Hixie> othermaciej: because of the hanging part, it used to be that there were no tasks triggering state
  443. # [13:52] <Hixie> i don't think he did
  444. # [13:52] <othermaciej> I'm kinda surprised no one spotted the bug - maybe he just assumed stopping parsing and resuming later was equivalent
  445. # [13:53] <othermaciej> (which it isn't, since events can be processed)
  446. # [13:53] <annevk42> gsnedders_, hmm, of those that I haven't seen Taking Woodstock seems kind of interesting
  447. # [13:53] <Hixie> i believe this bug has been brought to my attention before
  448. # [13:53] <Hixie> but maybe only on irc
  449. # [13:54] <gsnedders_> annevk42: I don't really mind what we do
  450. # [13:58] <annevk42> try to think of something :)
  451. # [13:58] <gsnedders_> annevk42: Me? Decisive? :P
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  453. # [14:06] <othermaciej> I think I found at least two obvious security bugs in Caja's DOM facade just by code inspection
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  455. # [14:08] <Hixie> ok i did it
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  457. # [14:08] <Hixie> i'll review it tomorrow
  458. # [14:08] <Hixie> nn
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  460. # [14:28] <annevk42> gsnedders_, see pm
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  497. # [18:27] <erlehmann> is the timeline for last call still oct 2009 (this month ?)
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  556. # [22:01] <foolip> does anyone know a script hacks to cause unknown element to be parsed as void elements?
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  558. # [22:02] <foolip> in IE they are by default and the document.createElement hack can make them be parsed as element with end tags
  559. # [22:02] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  560. # [22:03] <foolip> for all other browsers something to cause e.g. <source> or <itemref> as void elements would be nice
  561. # [22:04] <foolip> *to be parsed as
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  577. # [22:56] <annevk42> foolip, don't think there's such a thing
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  579. # [23:06] <Philip`> foolip: No sane browser allows scripts to change parser behaviour
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  588. # [23:23] <foolip> Philip`: no, I guess that might be strange
  589. # [23:24] <gsnedders_> annevk42: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Anne#Dutch
  590. # [23:27] <foolip> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Anne#Swedish
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  592. # [23:35] <Philip`> foolip: Well, browsers do lots of things that could be considered "strange"
  593. # [23:37] <Philip`> but changing the parser by calling createElement seems to go beyond that and is exposing implementation details in a crazy way
  594. # [23:39] <foolip> Philip`: IEs behavior could hardly have been intentional as a service to those who want the choice between void/non-void parsing for new elements
  595. # [23:40] <Philip`> Indeed
  596. # [23:40] <foolip> hmmm, is http://livedom.validator.nu/ actually a JS implementation of the HTML5 parsing algorithm?
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  598. # [23:42] * Philip` assumes it indicates something like IE having a per-document map of element names, initialised with standard HTML elements with the 'parse as HTML' flag enabled, and createElement accidentally inserts the named element in that map (with the parse-as-XML behaviour (like it uses for 'namespaced' elements) instead of parse-as-HTML), and the parser looks in that map to work out how to parse things
  599. # [23:42] <Philip`> or something roughly along those lines
  600. # [23:42] <Philip`> foolip: Yes
  601. # [23:42] <Philip`> foolip: (It's a Java implementation compiled to JS using GWT)
  602. # [23:45] <foolip> wow, that was not pretty code
  603. # [23:46] <foolip> (http://livedom.validator.nu/nu.validator.htmlparser.HtmlParser.nocache)
  604. # [23:48] <Philip`> foolip: http://philip.html5.org/tools/parser/ has a partial parser with readable code
  605. # [23:48] <foolip> yeah, I've tried that before, but assume that "old and unfinished and broken" is true
  606. # [23:49] <Philip`> It is :-)
  607. # [23:49] <Dashiva> http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/10/t-mobile-we-probably-lost-all-your-sidekick-data/
  608. # [23:49] <Dashiva> "oops"
  609. # [23:50] <Philip`> It could be made to work, but I expect it would take quite a bit of effort :-(
  610. # [23:50] <Philip`> (Most of the work could be reusable for generating parsers in other languages though)
  611. # [23:50] * inimino1 is now known as inimino
  612. # [23:53] <Philip`> Dashiva: With all this talk of cloud computing, I presumed someone would have noticed that atmospheric clouds tend to be quite short-lived phenomena
  613. # [23:53] <Dashiva> Or, you know, that backups are a good idea
  614. # [23:54] <Philip`> (Actually, how do clouds die?)
  615. # [23:54] * Quits: annevk42 (n=annevk@c-c604e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  616. # [23:54] <Dashiva> How can you kill that which has no life?
  617. # [23:55] <Philip`> (Do they usually precipitate away, or do they just disperse or something?)
  618. # [23:55] <Philip`> (Wikipedia doesn't seem to have any details on the full lifecycle of a cloud)
  619. # [23:55] <Philip`> Dashiva: I was speaking metaphorically :-p
  620. # [23:56] <Philip`> Anyway, zombies aren't alive and you can kill them with cricket bats
  621. # [23:56] <Dashiva> I think the proper term is deanimate
  622. # [23:57] * Quits: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@c83-252-232-119.bredband.comhem.se)
  623. # [23:58] <Philip`> During a zombie invasion, I bet you'd be shouting "kill them!" and not "deanimate them!"
  624. # [23:58] <Dashiva> Sure, but proper rules are the first victims of any war
  625. # [23:58] <Dashiva> Especially the zombie apocalypse kind
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  627. # Session Close: Sun Oct 11 00:00:00 2009

The end :)