/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:26] <caution> are frames/iframes removed from the html5 standard?
  9. # [00:26] <Hixie> frames are, iframes aren't
  10. # [00:27] <Hixie> frames were also removed from html4
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  38. # [03:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: any news on http://www.w3.org/mid/4ACB684A.9020505@w3.org ?
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  94. # [08:05] <hsivonen> someone has said something to me but my IRC client no longer remembers
  95. # [08:06] <annevk42> Hixie, <span title="dom-input-value-default">value</span> s/value</default</
  96. # [08:07] <Hixie> thanks fixed
  97. # [08:08] <hsivonen> I'm surprised that Larry seems unaware of the reason for the Windows-1252 default.
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  100. # [08:26] <othermaciej> Hixie: Jeanne agreed to refile those as bugs
  101. # [08:27] <Hixie> k thx
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  116. # [09:48] <ginger> M65FLXFAILZAOVV3MGBZKTGQDLOPNXSP6ORA4VCGOV5S6YEIMHJK-
  117. # [09:48] <ginger> MH3GP3PAP4MTWCLHNEB62EZON43CNIHWOBXMSATQKC6VMLXTC6QJ-
  118. # [09:48] <ginger> 4JCRXRKCLNMSNRTDZTYX25DU5BXTRDLE5BBPIWSPIVSCGOAQY
  119. # [09:48] <ginger> ups
  120. # [09:48] <ginger> sorry
  121. # [09:50] <ginger> exit
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  123. # [09:51] <pesla> lol
  124. # [09:53] <othermaciej> hsivonen: do you know where in a Firefox .app bundle I can find the default encoding used for HTML in this localization? or is the table in the source somewhere?
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  126. # [10:03] <hsivonen> othermaciej: in the local jar (en-US.jar in the en-US case) in file locale/LOCALENAME/global-platform/OS/intl.properties
  127. # [10:03] <hsivonen> othermaciej: pref intl.charset.default
  128. # [10:04] <hsivonen> where LOCALENAME is a code like en-US
  129. # [10:04] <hsivonen> and OS is mac, unix or win
  130. # [10:04] <hsivonen> s/local jar/locale jar
  131. # [10:04] <othermaciej> is that in the source code or in the binary?
  132. # [10:05] <othermaciej> ok I found it
  133. # [10:05] <hsivonen> http://mxr.mozilla.org/l10n-mozilla1.9.1/find?text=&kind=text&string=intl.properties
  134. # [10:06] <othermaciej> we should probably copy the Firefox behavior for Safari/WebKit
  135. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Korean sets it to EUC-KR, for example: http://mxr.mozilla.org/l10n-mozilla1.9.1/source/ko/toolkit/chrome/global/intl.properties
  136. # [10:06] <othermaciej> right now we use WinLatin1 as the default for all locales
  137. # [10:07] <hsivonen> othermaciej: interesting! I guess it's good enough, then. Do you know if users routinely change it e.g. in Japan or Russia?
  138. # [10:08] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think it's not good enough for at least some locales
  139. # [10:08] <hsivonen> ok
  140. # [10:08] <othermaciej> hsivonen: Apple just doesn't sell as much to those locales so it hasn't been a priority
  141. # [10:08] <othermaciej> I know that in Russia, defaulting to Latin1 fails
  142. # [10:08] <othermaciej> I believe it's bad in China and Japan too
  143. # [10:08] <othermaciej> and probably Korea
  144. # [10:08] <othermaciej> other than that, I don't know
  145. # [10:09] <othermaciej> I have not heard of problem reports from Israel, Greece, Eastern/Central Europe, etc where I believe we have non-trivial presence
  146. # [10:10] <othermaciej> I just wanted to verify that some of the countries in Hixie's map of the "Western World" don't get Latin-1 in Firefox
  147. # [10:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: which country doesn't?
  148. # [10:11] <othermaciej> Poland, Greece, Israel are the three I checked
  149. # [10:12] <othermaciej> based on that I would expect that Czech, Hungary, the baltic states, slovakia, and croatia do not either
  150. # [10:12] <hsivonen> where did Hixie define any of those countries as Western? (I see Firefox defines Greece as Western)
  151. # [10:12] <othermaciej> he linked to this map of "the Western world": http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Westerncultures_map.png
  152. # [10:13] <othermaciej> (not in the spec, in email discussion)
  153. # [10:13] <hsivonen> OK. that clearly doesn't properly match Windows-1252
  154. # [10:14] <othermaciej> I suggested that instead of "Western demographics", the spec should refer to "locales that use the Latin script", perhaps with explicit reference to windows-1252 completely or almost completely covering their alphabets
  155. # [10:14] <othermaciej> but it might be that Windows-1252 is also the default in some locales for historic reasons only; I did not check
  156. # [10:15] <othermaciej> I suspect there are also countries not on Hixie's map that would probably use 1252 (probably Albania for instance)
  157. # [10:15] <hsivonen> othermaciej: that would still be wrong for Polish, Czech, etc.
  158. # [10:16] <othermaciej> hsivonen: yes, just saying "Latin script" would be wrong, but saying "locales that primarily use the Latin script, and where Windows-1252 completely or almost completely covers their alphabet" would be right
  159. # [10:16] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I'm not yet sure if that covers Estonia the right way
  160. # [10:16] <othermaciej> the Estonian language is not covered by 1252
  161. # [10:17] <othermaciej> whether 1252 gets used anyway, I don't know
  162. # [10:17] <hsivonen> othermaciej: but do browsers still traditionally ship with a Windows-1252 default to Estonia?
  163. # [10:17] <annevk2> othermaciej, such a definition is very close to circular
  164. # [10:17] <othermaciej> annevk2: it's not circular at all
  165. # [10:18] <annevk2> i guess not, but still
  166. # [10:18] <othermaciej> it assumes a text encoding based on the alphabet of the locale
  167. # [10:18] <hsivonen> I still think it would be more useful to define the defaults for locales where you don't get away with shipping with Windows-1252
  168. # [10:18] <othermaciej> which is in fact how that decision is actually made
  169. # [10:18] <othermaciej> hsivonen: there's definitely some locales where shipping Windows-1252 is a big problem
  170. # [10:19] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't think any current browser has a custom default encoding for only those locales
  171. # [10:19] <hsivonen> othermaciej: FWIW, in the 1980s, Apple (rightly) decided to ship MacRoman to Finland even though MacRoman doesn't cover the whole alphabet according to orthographers in ivory towers
  172. # [10:21] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I'm not saying it would be wrong to change the default encoding for only a small number of locales; I'm just not sure anyone actually would do that
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  174. # [10:32] <Hixie> hsivonen and i were talking about this earlier, and i think the preferable solution would be a table that lists the places where 1252 isn't the default, and lists what the default should be there
  175. # [10:32] <Hixie> and then says "1252 for everything else"
  176. # [10:33] * jgraham thinks this has generated a lot of discussion for a non-normative sentence that could be cut from the spec without significant harm
  177. # [10:33] <jgraham> (unless you do actually spec the default in other places but I guess that will cause even more discussion)
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  180. # [10:35] <annevk2> Hixie, that sounds good, although it still sucks
  181. # [10:35] <annevk2> one day I'll find a better solution
  182. # [10:36] <Hixie> HTML sucks, but one day we'll find a better solution. :-)
  183. # [10:36] <jgraham> Listing it based on places rather than language sounds wrong.
  184. # [10:36] <Hixie> i don't mind what the key is
  185. # [10:36] <othermaciej> Hixie: I like that idea, if browsers are actually willing to follow such a list
  186. # [10:36] <annevk2> having pages render correctly based on the local of your browser is just a tad too wrong
  187. # [10:37] <annevk2> though apparently so far the only workable solution
  188. # [10:37] <jgraham> Yeah the whole idea of a locale-specific default is clearly broken. But there is nothing we can do
  189. # [10:37] <othermaciej> annevk2: another possibility is to try to guess the language, or do it based on country code TLDs, but I suspect that would be more broken too
  190. # [10:37] <hsivonen> annevk2: Opera Mini doesn't have charset defaulting UI, and Opera Mini works in Norway and Russia. How does it deal?
  191. # [10:37] <jgraham> othermaciej: The spec already allows for that of course
  192. # [10:38] <annevk2> hsivonen, we don't? I've no idea
  193. # [10:38] <othermaciej> The spec does let you autodetect encoding, I don't think it lets you guess based on the TLD
  194. # [10:38] * annevk2 is fixing XHR bugs
  195. # [10:38] <annevk2> after that I'm going to strongly consider working on CSSOM again
  196. # [10:38] <annevk2> seems more high-pri than Web Encoding
  197. # [10:38] <annevk2> s
  198. # [10:39] <hsivonen> I have no idea how charsets work in Opera Mini, but the inputs have to be page, heuristics, server domain, client localization and/or client address, because there's no UI
  199. # [10:40] <jgraham> othermaciej: I don't see why "other algorithms to the data stream" couldn't include looking at the URL
  200. # [10:40] <hsivonen> Interestingly, Nokia felt they should include the charset menu in MicroB
  201. # [10:41] <annevk2> mkay, I'm somewhat intrigued now, if I run across someone from what team I'll ask
  202. # [10:41] * hsivonen isn't curious enough to install a Russian localization of Mini for testing if the UI language is an input
  203. # [10:42] <jgraham> annevk2: You could go up a couple of floors and you would run into dozens of them ;)
  204. # [10:42] <annevk2> that'd require effort :)
  205. # [10:44] <jgraham> othermaciej: (ALthough I guess data stream could be interpreted as the document rather than the document+headers but it's hard to tell because that section variously talks about "resource", "file" and "data stream")
  206. # [10:44] <othermaciej> jgraham: if it turns out to be a workable solution I'm sure no one will let the spec stop them
  207. # [10:45] <jgraham> othermaciej: Indeed, so we may as well make it explicitly allowed
  208. # [10:46] * jgraham will file a bug
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  217. # [11:10] <annevk2> I guess XHR should get domintro boxes as well
  218. # [11:10] <annevk2> but maybe during CR so I don't have to fix bugs all the time in two places
  219. # [11:10] * annevk2 adds a note
  220. # [11:12] <gsnedders> domintro?
  221. # [11:13] <gsnedders> Just introduction to the DOM in general, or?
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  225. # [11:16] <annevk2> gsnedders, class=domintro
  226. # [11:16] <annevk2> see html5
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  245. # [12:42] <annevk2> funny thing: UTF-8 doubles size of requests so use a single-byte encoding and percent-escape it
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  247. # [12:43] <Dashiva> ... what?
  248. # [12:43] <Dashiva> Percent-encoding can potentially triple the size, though
  249. # [12:49] <hsivonen> annevk2: huh?
  250. # [12:49] <annevk2> Dashiva, the triple sizing is the joke
  251. # [12:49] <annevk2> for reference: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009OctDec/0136.html
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  258. # [13:25] <hsivonen> Out of personal interest, I started a spreadsheet where I try to score W3C TR page publications from 0 to 4 depending on how many of Gecko, WebKit, Presto and Trident make a serious effort to support a given spec
  259. # [13:26] <hsivonen> Three findings: 1) Lots of zeros. 2) I'm ignorant about the implementation status of a lot of stuff. 3) I'm ignorant about the way the SVG WG organizes its specs.
  260. # [13:28] <annevk2> is it an online spreadsheet so others can help out?
  261. # [13:28] <hsivonen> annevk2: not yet.
  262. # [13:29] <hsivonen> annevk2: should I put it on Google Docs or elsewhere?
  263. # [13:29] <annevk2> wiki or google works I suppose
  264. # [13:29] <hsivonen> OK.
  265. # [13:29] <othermaciej> hsivonen: how would you could "serious effort"?
  266. # [13:30] <othermaciej> and what counts as supporting? Does Gecko "support" RDF for instance?
  267. # [13:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I marked Gecko as supporting RDF/XML and RDF concepts
  268. # [13:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: and I marked all four supporting ARIA
  269. # [13:30] <Hixie> i thought we dropped our rdf support
  270. # [13:30] <othermaciej> does Gecko expose its support for RDF/XML to the Web somehow?
  271. # [13:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: so maybe the bar should be any support at all
  272. # [13:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: as opposed to "serious"
  273. # [13:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I have no idea
  274. # [13:30] <othermaciej> there's a lot of TR publications, wow
  275. # [13:31] <hsivonen> othermaciej: if it doesn't, it shouldn't count towards to score
  276. # [13:31] <hsivonen> othermaciej: see my finding #2 above
  277. # [13:32] <annevk2> you should prolly also have something like spec-obsolete-in-favor-of-something-else
  278. # [13:32] <annevk2> e.g. for HTML4, CSS1, etc.
  279. # [13:32] <othermaciej> sXBL scores a 0 *and* is obsolete in favor of something else
  280. # [13:33] <annevk2> maybe we could just color those light grey
  281. # [13:34] <annevk2> e.g. colors for draft maturity and numbers for impl status per vendor
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  283. # [13:35] <othermaciej> I'm definitely interested in seeing this data, and possibly in helping to complete it
  284. # [13:36] <smaug> hsivonen: so are you looking at *all* the TRs?
  285. # [13:38] <Hixie> annevk2: so i have some feedback regarding legacy encodings and stuff like that... should I tell them you're dealing with that?
  286. # [13:39] <hsivonen> smaug: all except Notes and WDs officially classified as abandoned
  287. # [13:39] <jgraham> At least one Note has multiple implementations (XPath)
  288. # [13:40] <smaug> There are of course TRs which aren't for browsers
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  290. # [13:42] <hsivonen> smaug: those would simply score 0 as far as implementations in browser engines go
  291. # [13:42] <smaug> right
  292. # [13:42] * hsivonen has trouble getting Google Docs accept an HTML file as a spreadsheet
  293. # [13:43] <Hixie> ok bed time now
  294. # [13:43] <Hixie> nn
  295. # [13:43] <smaug> hsivonen: do you count extensions as "make a serious effort to support"?
  296. # [13:44] <hsivonen> smaug: I don't
  297. # [13:44] <hsivonen> hmm. Do Google Docs spreadsheets not support hyperlinks in table cells?
  298. # [13:45] <annevk2> Hixie, not sure, if I'm going to do CSSOM again also dealing with encodings would be distracting
  299. # [13:45] * annevk2 needs a real annevk2
  300. # [13:45] <smaug> Btw, gecko does still support some rdf
  301. # [13:45] <smaug> at least with templates
  302. # [13:46] <hsivonen> smaug: is it Web-exposed? I tentatively scored RDF concepts and RDF/XML as being implemented in Gecko
  303. # [13:46] <hsivonen> I'll try to battle Google Docs later.
  304. # [13:46] <smaug> yes, you can use templates in content pages
  305. # [13:46] <hsivonen> clearly, Google Docs still has a long way to go to compete with Excel and OOo Calc
  306. # [13:46] <hsivonen> smaug: OK. thanks
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  313. # [14:17] <hsivonen> OK. I finally managed to get Google Docs ingest the spreadsheet after I used .xls format...
  314. # [14:17] <hsivonen> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtnDcoh7FXfAdEFuWVlVVDZTVkFWdnRqaWFGMzNYM3c&hl=en
  315. # [14:17] <hsivonen> now back to work
  316. # [14:18] <smaug> hsivonen: I think Opera has some VoiceXML support (at least Opera used to support XHTML+Voice)
  317. # [14:19] <smaug> ah, you marked it ?
  318. # [14:19] <hsivonen> I think I now made it world-writable
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  320. # [14:21] <smaug> hsivonen: should I ? if there is a patch waiting for review to implement a spec?
  321. # [14:21] <smaug> patch which might even land
  322. # [14:22] <hsivonen> smaug: go ahead. Please use the notes column to mention it's about to land
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  324. # [14:25] <daedb> CSS question: Are styles with a :lang() selector really supposed to be applied to descendants in a different language?
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  326. # [14:27] <gsnedders> Well sure, normal inheritance rules apply.
  327. # [14:27] <gsnedders> How you specify what element to set properties on has no effect on how they are inherited.
  328. # [14:27] <gsnedders> daedb: ^^
  329. # [14:28] <hsivonen> I hate it when I break Hixie's Live DOM Viewer
  330. # [14:29] <daedb> gsnedders: That seems counter-intuitive to me, but alright :)
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  333. # [14:32] <Dashiva> daedb: If you want to limit it, use :lang() to target the descendants with specified language
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  336. # [14:37] <daedb> Dashiva: It's not terribly important to me. I was just playing around with it and was surprised with some of the results.
  337. # [14:45] <othermaciej> hsivonen: interesting that there's more 4s than 3s
  338. # [14:46] <othermaciej> doesn't IE support Selectors API?
  339. # [14:49] <gsnedders> othermaciej: IE8 does
  340. # [14:49] <othermaciej> gsnedders: yeah, I fixed it already
  341. # [14:51] * hsivonen wonders if someone else broke Hixie's Live DOM Viewer
  342. # [14:51] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I updated a few things - should I re-sort by score?
  343. # [14:51] <hsivonen> othermaciej: sure if you can figure out how to resort. I couldn't.
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  345. # [14:54] <othermaciej> hsivonen: hmm, how serious should an attempt at "support" be? I noticed you didn't score anyone for HTML5
  346. # [14:54] <hsivonen> HTML5 is a tough one
  347. # [14:54] <othermaciej> obviously no one has an implementation that you could claim to be complete yet
  348. # [14:55] <hsivonen> Maybe it should be marked as supported, since the point of the table is to see which specs have part-of-the-platform kind of browser vendor buy-in
  349. # [14:55] <othermaciej> but everyone has a partial implementation, in some cases including quite complicated new parts of the spec, and everyone has an intent to do more
  350. # [14:56] <hsivonen> Whoa! WebKit has MathML support now?
  351. # [14:56] <othermaciej> partial
  352. # [14:56] <hsivonen> cool
  353. # [14:56] <othermaciej> with more in progress
  354. # [14:56] <othermaciej> I think everyone supports 'Syntax of CSS rules in HTML's "style" attribute'
  355. # [14:57] <jgraham> othermaciej: nice
  356. # [14:57] <jgraham> (about the MathML)
  357. # [14:59] <othermaciej> how does one determine if browsers support "Modularization of XHTML 1.0"?
  358. # [14:59] <othermaciej> are the implementation requirements any different than regular XHTML 1.0?
  359. # [14:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: AFAICT, browsers that don't support DTD loading can't support it
  360. # [15:00] <hsivonen> when there are multiple versions of a spec, I've marked the latest not supported if only the subset already covered by a previous version is supported
  361. # [15:00] <hsivonen> so no browser supports XHTML 1.1
  362. # [15:00] <hsivonen> since the delta from 1.0 to 1.1 is ruby and no browser supports ruby in the right mime type
  363. # [15:01] <hsivonen> (unless Google's contribution to WebKit landed already)
  364. # [15:02] <othermaciej> I sucessfully sorted
  365. # [15:02] <othermaciej> Google has landed some Ruby stuff, though I don't know if it works sufficiently per XHTML 1.1 requirements
  366. # [15:03] <othermaciej> it's sad that "1" is the second-largest score category after "4"
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  368. # [15:04] <othermaciej> though maybe Opera's next major release will greatly increase the quantity of "3"
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  371. # [15:09] <othermaciej> I'm tempted to flip some of the HTML5 columns to 1 but I'll leave it to hsivonen's judgment
  372. # [15:12] <othermaciej> it looks like Gecko+WebKit is the most popular 2-combo, and the 1s are pretty evenly distributed among non-Trident engines
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  377. # [15:34] <boblet> wonders if <h> might be worth considering for the ongoing <figure> title saga. If there are no repurposable elements that might be a nice one to add…
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  383. # [15:56] <hsivonen> i18n FTW. Someone's email client broke Mark Davis' and Martin Dürst's names in email and the errors propagate down the thread.
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  386. # [16:08] <annevk2> thanks othermaciej for chiming in
  387. # [16:08] <othermaciej> annevk2: I figured since Mark cited a specific scenario I should actually read it - I kind of tuned this discussion out last time around
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  401. # [16:42] * gsnedders is now known as gsnedders|work
  402. # [16:44] <TabAtkins> This is heartening information: http://4734020732036341599-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/macchiato/main/updated-unicode-growth/growth_of_unicode_on_the_web.png?attachauth=ANoY7cqYWCRCtFSL4QvZl_L1Bza9-sscXBYmqJ3juoLgiogEdU53GeXZ6kVdMxir7WxjpmA1n0T0yUuu1mRKtw4bTgBXFO9-LalamXut92p1_QkEJrEqjYcyfcatfMF57R9AkxLiXEnXSljJdqihzNtp0KJDYfU6RR3Idxwc5oNgsMKqIJSm6GYFaiyj4dMyps_gby7qLjZhyIQ
  403. # [16:44] <TabAtkins> bLql0rUWFelspOgAlb2n0VcrsvqQso6LR-XLA6gPEwHXVqJTieitMguV0EPw0&attredirects=0
  404. # [16:46] <jcranmer> UTF-8 is only ~38%?
  405. # [16:46] <TabAtkins> Apparently. The heartening part is the upward climb.
  406. # [16:47] <hsivonen> though there's still non-Unicode Chinese growth
  407. # [16:47] <jcranmer> how is it measured?
  408. # [16:47] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Not sure. It came from i18n thread.
  409. # [16:47] <hsivonen> jcranmer: I'd expect it to be percentages from the Google index as detected by Google's detector
  410. # [16:48] <jcranmer> I expect that it may be based on what pages claim
  411. # [16:48] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Yeah, a bit. I dunno quite why, though - utf8 is more efficient on most chinese pages.
  412. # [16:48] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: it's probably more about legacy software or legacy mindset than about efficiency
  413. # [16:48] <TabAtkins> True.
  414. # [16:51] <annevk2> and gov endorsed maybe, in case of gb23..
  415. # [16:51] <zcorpan_> the number of pages using legacy encodings might still be growing (just that utf-8 is growing faster)
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  417. # [16:52] <jgraham> Given that the number of webpages is probably growing exponentially and nothing seems to be declining fater than linearly that would appear to be the case, yes
  418. # [16:52] <jgraham> *faster\
  419. # [16:53] <hsivonen> Is the govt still actively endorsing GB18030?
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  422. # [17:03] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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  427. # [17:21] <annevk2> hmm interesting, shouldn't data:... in data URLs be case-insensitive i.e. data:,x and datA:,x are the same?
  428. # [17:22] <gsnedders|work> Yeah
  429. # [17:22] <annevk2> in Firefox it seems case-sensitive
  430. # [17:23] <gsnedders|work> Scheme and host should be case-insensitive, every other part of the URI should be case-sensitive
  431. # [17:23] <gsnedders|work> (ASCII case-insensitive, that is)
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  433. # [17:28] <TabAtkins> omg I'm bored with the frameset discussion.
  434. # [17:30] <Dashiva> I don't get the security aspect
  435. # [17:30] <Dashiva> Anyone can just right-click and choose 'open frame', then bookmark that
  436. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> I suspect the OP is completely irrational about that point.
  437. # [17:30] <hendry> has someone crafted a good HTML5 audio test? Something that tests looping, fallback to different formats and media that can perhaps test stereo?
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  439. # [17:31] <zcorpan_> mmm stereo
  440. # [17:33] * lmorchard is now known as lmorchard|away
  441. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: I hadn't thought of that, though, so I've gone ahead and posted it to the list. Maybe we can get him to shut up about breaking bookmarking.
  442. # [17:37] <TabAtkins> It's really not hard to do properly on the server-side, if you want to. Just pass an expiring secret around, and redirect to the front-page if the secret is out of date.
  443. # [17:38] * hendry discovers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_tone
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  458. # [18:24] <annevk2> CSSOM is a lot of work; sigh
  459. # [18:24] <annevk2> for every bit you write you can immediately think of like ten questions you have to answer so you can rewrite it
  460. # [18:25] <annevk2> exponential pain :p
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  465. # [18:32] <annevk2> class task: define "supported style sheet language" so that CSS is included and XSLT is out without naming either
  466. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> "not xml-based"
  467. # [18:33] <annevk2> fallback: forget about architecture and just deal with it explicitly
  468. # [18:33] <annevk2> I should add that it is about the fundamental difference
  469. # [18:34] <annevk2> CSS could be xml-based and still work pretty much the same way
  470. # [18:34] <Dashiva> "Using a non-distributed or non-extensible language"
  471. # [18:34] <annevk2> lol, also an F for you :p
  472. # [18:34] <Dashiva> Then you just define language to be CSS
  473. # [18:34] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
  474. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> Since you've only got two stylesheet languages, and I don't *think* it's likely that another will emerge in the near future, I'd go with the fallback. Specific language can be easily amended in the future if more appropriate languages are created, but a seemingly-general classification (that's really just meant to differentiate two things) is harder to work around conceptually.
  475. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> ...if it turns out, upon the creation of the new language, that the classification used doesn't capture the correct details.
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  485. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> Man, db abstractions are complicated.
  486. # [18:51] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
  487. # [18:51] * TabAtkins is going through legacy code to update to current abstractions, and should probably add another feature to eliminate even more direct SQL strings.
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  490. # [18:52] <othermaciej> annevk2: would XSL-FO styling count, if anyone implemented it?
  491. # [18:52] <othermaciej> annevk2: XSLT isn't really a stylesheet language in the same sense as CSS, it's a transform language, so there's no runtime style information resulting
  492. # [18:53] <othermaciej> annevk2: anyway, what part of CSSOM needs to reference the concept of "supported style sheet language"?
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  509. # [19:19] <annevk42> othermaciej, XSL-FO would count I suppose
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  511. # [19:19] <annevk42> othermaciej, it's the part on style sheets and the DOM; in particular whether or not a style sheet is to be created for certain Link headers and ProcessingInstruction nodes
  512. # [19:20] <annevk42> HTML and SVG presumably need to reference such a concept as well for <style>, <link>, etc. so maybe I should look there
  513. # [19:20] <othermaciej> annevk42: I see
  514. # [19:20] <othermaciej> annevk42: I think you should just limit it to CSS
  515. # [19:20] <othermaciej> there's no actually existing stylesheet language where it would be useful to expose a DOM stylesheet object, other than CSS
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  517. # [19:21] <annevk42> Hixie just uses "specified styling language" without a link to a definition
  518. # [19:21] <othermaciej> or you could say MUST include CSS stylesheets, MAY include other recognized stylesheet languages that produce runtime style information rather than modifying the content
  519. # [19:22] <annevk42> ta
  520. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> annevk42: Actually, it looks like Hixie offloads the definition to CSSOM. ^_^
  521. # [19:22] * Quits: mat_t_ (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  522. # [19:22] <annevk42> guess I'll fiddle with it a bit tomorrow
  523. # [19:23] <annevk42> TabAtkins, not that one
  524. # [19:23] <TabAtkins> Not 4.2.8?
  525. # [19:23] <annevk42> yes, but that term is not said to be defined in the CSSOM
  526. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Okay, true, but it does defer the idea of what styling information is to CSSOM.
  527. # [19:24] <annevk42> just some of it
  528. # [19:25] <annevk42> seems hixie also defines some other concepts around style sheets that do assume CSS
  529. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> Those may be spec bugs.
  530. # [19:26] * annevk42 wonders whether SVG elements can have style sheets blocking scripts
  531. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> HTML5 should merely assume that CSS is a commonly supported styling language, not that it is the "correct" language.
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  533. # [19:27] <annevk42> it's inside an e.g. actually
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  535. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> Oh, right. Those are just examples, then.
  536. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> Or rather, that one line (since there's only one) is.
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  574. # [21:21] <remysharp> I've a question about the example code in the spec
  575. # [21:21] <remysharp> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-section-element
  576. # [21:22] <remysharp> the code directly above that point - the online - offline example
  577. # [21:22] <remysharp> I'm sure there's lots more like it, but why is it using inline JavaScript rather than DOM scripting?
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  602. # [22:53] <annevk42> othermaciej, CaretPosition wfm too
  603. # [22:53] <annevk42> othermaciej, I think only WebKit implemented it and only recently
  604. # [22:53] <annevk42> othermaciej, so that should certainly be possible
  605. # [22:54] <othermaciej> annevk42: yeah it's a recent addition
  606. # [22:55] <annevk42> othermaciej, so containingNode is one of Element or Text?
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  608. # [22:56] <annevk42> prolly don't need offsetKind
  609. # [22:57] <othermaciej> annevk42: well, you could identify form controls by their tag name
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  611. # [22:58] <othermaciej> annevk42: but if the pointer is between two adjacent images for instance, you could get an Element that's not a form control (not sure what actually happened in our implementation)
  612. # [22:58] <annevk42> and maybe change containingNode to ownerNode (that is used in e.g. StyleSheet anyway)
  613. # [22:59] <othermaciej> I'm not sure ownerNode is the right terminology for the node containing a position - it doesn't "own" the position, that's just where the position was found
  614. # [22:59] <annevk42> hmm true
  615. # [23:00] <annevk42> just container would be somewhat compatible with DOM Range
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  617. # [23:02] <annevk42> anyway, this can certainly work
  618. # [23:02] <annevk42> lets see what the Google guy thinks
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The end :)