/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 22 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> I've got a friend who wants to know what character of text is under the mouse during a mouseDown event. There's not any way to determine that currently, right (without horrible hacks like wrapping every character in a span)? Where would be an appropriate place to tell him to suggest an offsetText property or similar?
  15. # [00:44] <Hixie> anne's already looking at that for cssom iirc
  16. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Ah, cool.
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  20. # [01:05] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: there was a proposed caretRangeFromPoint() API
  21. # [01:06] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: there's the slight complication right now that people want it to work for plaintext controls like <textarea> and <input type="text">, but a DOM Range can't represent a text range inside a form control
  22. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> My friend wasn't wanting that - just the character in a normal text node.
  23. # [01:07] <othermaciej> well, caretRangeFromPoint() will do that in WebKit, but like I said the API is likely to change incompatibly
  24. # [01:08] <othermaciej> Mozilla also has some nonstandard extensions right in the mouse event - caretRangeFromPoint() lets you do the hit testing at any time though, you don't need an event
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  28. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Thanks, othermaciej. I've passed the info along.
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  31. # [01:20] <othermaciej> so I hear Web Fonts is going to define not one but two new font formats
  32. # [01:20] * othermaciej is not sure what to think of this
  33. # [01:20] <Rik`> WOFF and ?
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  35. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> CWT.
  36. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Which is a fancy name for version 1 EOT.
  37. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> With some of the header cruft ignored.
  38. # [01:21] <othermaciej> and then it will also recommend regular OTF and SVG fonts, and require browsers to implement at least 2
  39. # [01:21] <othermaciej> call me crazy, but isn't this even worse for interop than the status quo?
  40. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> I don't see how it can possibly be worse.
  41. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> But it's likely that everyone will end up supporting WOFF.
  42. # [01:22] <Rik`> othermaciej: my understanding is that the goal is not interop but font makers pleasure
  43. # [01:22] <othermaciej> I'm trying to figure out if I should ask our AC Rep to oppose this or just close my eyes and think of england
  44. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> What would you propose if you opposed it?
  45. # [01:25] <othermaciej> not having a Fonts working group at all
  46. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> And then do what about font interop? Hope it all works out?
  47. # [01:27] <othermaciej> wait for one side or the other to capitulate
  48. # [01:28] <othermaciej> another alternative would be to pursue only one new font format and get everybody on board with implementing it, instead of the weird "pick 2 of 4" thing
  49. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> Sylvain appears to be hinting that WOFF is his expected consensus solution.
  50. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> (Though I'm still gunning for CWT.)
  51. # [01:29] <othermaciej> that being said, WOFF seems DRM-free
  52. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> None of the 4 formats are DRMed in any way, shape, or form.
  53. # [01:29] <othermaciej> it just seems like implementing it is a giant waste of effort
  54. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but MS hasn't given up and implemented TTF yet, and hasn't given any indications that they'd like to, either.
  55. # [01:31] <Rik`> TabAtkins: MS hasn't implemented addEventListener but no one has invented yet another way to add handlers because of that
  56. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but has MS consistently openly refused to implement it, and had strong statements from people in the organization that they don't expect to?
  57. # [01:33] <Rik`> that's not the point
  58. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> It is. There's a difference between "hasn't done it yet" and "has refused to do it".
  59. # [01:33] <Rik`> developers know how to use different code paths for stupid browsers
  60. # [01:35] <Rik`> if MS doesn't want to play ball and developers have a cross browser solution, why would you invent something else ?
  61. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> But JS differences can be papered over trivially in libraries so you never have to think about it again. This isn't the same thing.
  62. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> ...we *don't* have a cross-browser solution. We have two separate solutions that we have to weld together manually every single time we want to use them.
  63. # [01:36] <Rik`> they are ttf2eot tools, it's a one line fix
  64. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> And you have to store both and link both every time.
  65. # [01:37] <Rik`> "store" a < 1mo file ?
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  67. # [01:38] <Rik`> people already have a lot of CSS path for IE
  68. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> It's still a hassle. Imagine if you had to duplicate every image you used on your site and link both of them.
  69. # [01:38] <Rik`> isn't that what people do for PNG alpha transparency ?
  70. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> No. They either link a non-PNG, or they use one of the pngFix libraries, or they just ignore ie6.
  71. # [01:39] <Rik`> and fwiw, people can just treat IE as one of the non supporting browsers
  72. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Yeah, not actually possible when the marketing department wants a special headline font.
  73. # [01:41] <Rik`> or you can create a JS library that reads your font-face rules and create a new rule for IE
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  75. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> That then ties to you js (which is okay if you're doing purely visual tweaks, but not if you're linking in a font for your uncommon language), and still requires two font files to be created (not much of a hassle by itself, but still more than should be necessary).
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  77. # [01:43] <Rik`> what about the hassle of waiting three years before seeing a version of IE supporting those new formats
  78. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> That's why I support CWT.
  79. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Then IE6+ will all work, and I only have to wait for the other browsers to update, which is much faster.
  80. # [01:44] <Rik`> and the user base ?
  81. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> The userbase of non-IE browsers updates *much* faster.
  82. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> I imagine mostly because the browsers are actually willing to auto-update.
  83. # [01:45] <Rik`> still need around one year after release
  84. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> Yup, that's not so bad. It is the fastest path to interop among all the options.
  85. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> I mean, even if IE promised TTF support in IE9, it'd still be 5+ years before it's usable.
  86. # [01:46] <Rik`> or use ttf + eot right now
  87. # [01:46] <Rik`> (or in one year for a solid userbase)
  88. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's still a crappy option though.
  89. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> How does CWT handle origin control?
  90. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> I recall that being a sticking point for an EOT-based solution before I stopped following www-font.
  91. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The same way TTF does - through same-origin controls.
  92. # [01:49] <Rik`> anyway, off to bed
  93. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> Later, Rik`.
  94. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> If the rootstring is nonempty, is it ignored, or do non-IE browsers refuse to process the file?
  95. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> CWT has no rootstring - it's current based on eot version 1.
  96. # [01:51] <AryehGregor> So IE <= 8 (i.e., large majority of users' browsers) won't implement origin restrictions at all, then?
  97. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> Even when it was based on version 2, cwt itself had no rootstring, it just had meaningless padding. Whether or not legacy nonconforming clients interpreted that padding as a rootstring was up to them.
  98. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> (Which I preferred, but people bitched about it.)
  99. # [01:51] <AryehGregor> Are font foundries actually willing to license anything in this format?
  100. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> And yes.
  101. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> Anyone who's licensing in TTF would obviously license in CWT.
  102. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> Right, but the point is a lot of foundries don't want to license in TTF, I thought?
  103. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> Or have a lot of them cracked by now?
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  105. # [01:53] <TabAtkins> There's still plenty that don't.
  106. # [01:53] <TabAtkins> ;_;
  107. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> But that's why I thought the whole uproar over basing CWT on EOTv2 was stupid. It would let us make an end-run around that crap without bringing rootstring baggage into future browsers.
  108. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> Has any foundry said they'll license EOT but not WOFF, or is everyone as okay with WOFF as they're going to get?
  109. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> I dunno. I know Ascender's cool with CWT, but I dunno if anyone's outright said that they're cool with WOFF.
  110. # [01:55] * TabAtkins is heading to dinner now.
  111. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> Oh well. We'll see.
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  124. # [02:36] <roc> TabAtkins: CWT really isn't appealing as currently specified, see my email. You would have to use Referer checking. Easier to just produce and serve two (or more) font files.
  125. # [02:36] <roc> othermaciej: WOFF is trivial. At worst, implementing it is a *tiny* waste of effort
  126. # [02:37] <othermaciej> the font guys at Apple were not at all enthusiastic about supporting a new font format
  127. # [02:37] <othermaciej> if WOFF can easily and efficiently be converted to OTF or TTF then I guess it's somewhat less of a waste of time
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  129. # [02:39] <roc> it really is the thinnest possible wrapper around OTF+TTF, plus per-table zlib compression
  130. # [02:39] <othermaciej> I'm wary that the "plus" is what will make it nontrivial to implement efficiently (at least given only a blackbox OTF/TTF implementation)
  131. # [02:40] <roc> you have to decompress the tables
  132. # [02:40] <roc> but you already have to mangle tables
  133. # [02:40] <othermaciej> I do?
  134. # [02:40] <roc> to work around Windows bugs etc
  135. # [02:40] <roc> yep
  136. # [02:40] <roc> you do
  137. # [02:40] <roc> and the zlib decompression is easier than that
  138. # [02:42] <roc> OTF/TTF implementations are more of a black box to us than to you, remember
  139. # [02:42] <roc> at least until we ship Harfbuzz
  140. # [02:42] <othermaciej> I don't think we do any mangling of tables
  141. # [02:43] <othermaciej> (that's either due to my ignorance, or due to the fact that we use Apple's font implementation on Windows)
  142. # [02:43] <othermaciej> still seems like a waste of time to me
  143. # [02:43] <roc> I'm pretty sure you do
  144. # [02:44] <othermaciej> pursuing both WOFF and CWT (but then effectively not mandating either) seems even more wasteful
  145. # [02:44] <roc> yeah, we're not interested in that
  146. # [02:46] <othermaciej> if everyone else implements WOFF then we'll probably have to, but I can't say the prospect fills me with any enthusiasm
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  148. # [02:47] <roc> you implemented SVG fonts, which are considerably more useless IMHO
  149. # [02:47] <othermaciej> incidentally - am I wrong to be concerned about the idea of a Microsoft-edited Canvas spec? Can't tell if I'm being too paranoid or not paranoid enough
  150. # [02:47] <roc> I thought that was weird too
  151. # [02:47] <jcranmer> roc: I think Hixie disagrees... it's in Acid3, after all
  152. # [02:48] <othermaciej> SVG fonts are kind of useless for real content, but at least they can achieve special effects that other font formats can't do
  153. # [02:48] <roc> othermaciej: yeah, but you didn't implement that part
  154. # [02:48] <roc> jcranmer: I think Hixie may regret putting in Acid3, you should ask him
  155. # [02:48] <othermaciej> what do you mean? colored glyphs work fine afaik
  156. # [02:49] <roc> not in my tests
  157. # [02:49] <othermaciej> as does crazy stuff like per-character rotation and positioning on a path (though the latter I think you can do with SVG text and non-SVG fonts)
  158. # [02:49] <roc> yes, you can
  159. # [02:50] <jcranmer> hmm, why are the animation tests failing on FF 3.6?
  160. # [02:50] <roc> othermaciej: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Sep/0013.html
  161. # [02:50] <othermaciej> text on a path should really be doable without using SVG at all IMO
  162. # [02:50] <roc> maybe my testcase is broken but no-one contradicted me
  163. # [02:51] <othermaciej> our implementation doesn't rasterize the glyphs, it just draws them anew every time, so I'd be surprised if it had that limitation
  164. # [02:51] <roc> what limitation?
  165. # [02:51] <roc> SVG glyphs really have two parts
  166. # [02:52] <roc> a path in the "d" attribute of the <glyph> element
  167. # [02:52] <roc> and arbitrary SVG content in the subtree rooted at <glyph>
  168. # [02:52] <roc> as far as I could tell, Opera and Webkit support the former but not the latter
  169. # [02:52] <roc> again, maybe I'm wrong
  170. # [02:52] <othermaciej> I see
  171. # [02:53] <roc> if you read that thread, I have some arguments that the way arbitrary-content glyphs are handled is actually quite broken
  172. # [02:54] <roc> oh, in a slightly later thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Sep/0043.html
  173. # [02:55] <othermaciej> I'm sure you're right - <foreignObject> in a glyph could be quite crazy
  174. # [02:55] <othermaciej> (though not that much worse than <use>)
  175. # [02:56] <roc> somewhat worse, since you have to support associating the anonymous content with HTML text, you can't just confine the madness to SVG
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  177. # [02:58] <roc> the quandry we have over SVG fonts is whether to implement the subset you guys did --- basically to just pass Acid3, since it offers nothing that is not more conveniently expressed with normal downloadable fonts --- or to implement the whole thing, which actually might be useful but has serious implementation difficulties that no-one else has seen fit to tackle yet
  178. # [02:58] <roc> and actually kinda sucks for authors anyway
  179. # [03:08] <othermaciej> the original reason we have SVG fonts at all is due to enthusiasm of some of the contributors who wrote our original SVG implementation
  180. # [03:09] <othermaciej> (they added fonts later, but it was the same guys basically)
  181. # [03:09] <othermaciej> although we did fix a bunch of bugs with metrics and other arcane details for Acid3
  182. # [03:10] <othermaciej> I think having SVG font and SVG animation tests in Acid3 was kind of lame; at the time only Opera had these things implemented and I think it was an Opera developer who submitted those particular tests
  183. # [03:10] <roc> that is true
  184. # [03:12] <roc> Acid3 marketing is likely to just force us to implement at least that subset of SVG fonts
  185. # [03:13] <roc> but if the arbitrary-SVG feature doesn't get implemented, or does get implemented according to the current spec and sucks as much as I think it will, then Acid3 will be responsible for a stupid wart in the Web platform
  186. # [03:16] <roc> oh well, few participants are completely guiltless on that score :-)
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  188. # [03:26] <othermaciej> indeed
  189. # [03:26] <othermaciej> there's no shortage of warts
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  193. # [03:31] <roc> they still irritate me
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  195. # [03:31] <othermaciej> I try to focus my irritation on proposals to add new warts
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  209. # [04:16] <TabAtkins> roc, othermaciej: If I recall correctly, CWT is similarly a super-thin wrapper over TTF. Isn't it nothing more than a header of a couple of bytes? It doesn't even employ any manipulation of the font-data (EOT can do compression on fonts, but the CWT proposal currently specifies uncompressed fonts, to avoid patent issues).
  210. # [04:17] <othermaciej> doesn't EOT have XOR "encryption"?
  211. # [04:17] <TabAtkins> I don't believe that the EOT version used for CWT does.
  212. # [04:17] <TabAtkins> (It's been a few months since the font discussion, though.)
  213. # [04:18] * TabAtkins is pulling up the archives real quick to see if he can answer definitively.
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  215. # [04:22] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: I just confirmed - CWT uses *no* scrambling, XOR, MTX, or otherwise.
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  217. # [04:22] <othermaciej> does it alter the font file less than WOFF?
  218. # [04:24] <TabAtkins> *All* that it does is prepend the font with some header bytes. That's literally it. Chop off the header and you've got a perfectly valid ttf font.
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  220. # [04:25] <TabAtkins> So, yes.
  221. # [04:25] <TabAtkins> (Since WOFF does the per-table compression.)
  222. # [04:25] <othermaciej> I guess that is an advantage - the downside being that people who only test in IE may accidentally serve EOT fonts using more than the CWT subset
  223. # [04:27] <TabAtkins> True, but the common options used when generating EOT will make it immediately fail in a normal CWT-supporting browser. So you'd really have to test *only* in IE.
  224. # [04:28] <TabAtkins> Here's Daggett's 1.1 proposal. I think it's the latest 'official' specced version: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2009JulSep/0969.html
  225. # [04:29] <othermaciej> "the common options used when generating EOT will make it immediately fail in a normal CWT-supporting browser" -- that's not a feature!
  226. # [04:29] <TabAtkins> Sure it is. It keeps you from accidentally serving EOT. ^_^
  227. # [04:30] <othermaciej> it would be much better if the common options used when generating EOT made it Just Work(tm) in a normal CWT-supporting browser
  228. # [04:30] <othermaciej> though I'm sure the tradeoff there is implementation complexity
  229. # [04:31] <TabAtkins> But the common option is one of the compression options.
  230. # [04:31] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  310. # [10:49] * gsnedders is trying to fix the only test failure in html5lib
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  319. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, Hixie: I just checked in a v.nu change to fix the <caption> error
  320. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> so the spec now validates once again
  321. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
  322. # [11:14] <Hixie> i bet the complete.html file still doesn't validate :-)
  323. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> ah
  324. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> OK, I'll check that next
  325. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that was due to the microdata thing, right?
  326. # [11:14] <Hixie> yeah
  327. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> OK
  328. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> I'll look at that next
  329. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it seems that maxFileSize needs to be increased once again
  330. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> HTML5 is now 4304 KB
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  332. # [11:17] * MikeSmith hopes complete.html is not more than 5MB
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  336. # [11:42] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Content-Length: 4831259
  337. # [11:43] <Philip`> But I bet it'll grow :-p
  338. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> yeah
  339. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> I upped it to 5120 on qa-dev for now
  340. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK, patched it enough for now to get complete.html to validate -
  341. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html
  342. # [11:44] <Hixie> i'm gonna have to start writing test cases for validators :-)
  343. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> heh
  344. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> <snort>
  345. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> with that, I gots to drop off and catch a train back to civilization.. back later
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  352. # [12:06] <mikekelly> I hope Roy doesn't bite my head off :(
  353. # [12:08] <mikekelly> we RESTafarians have a vengeful god
  354. # [12:10] <Dashiva> Don't worry, Roy bites everyone's head off
  355. # [12:11] <Philip`> How is this "other applicable specifications" thing meant to work when applying multiple specs that conflict?
  356. # [12:11] <Philip`> and you'd get a different interpretation depending on which order you apply them in
  357. # [12:12] <Dashiva> Philip`: If they conflict they aren't all applicable?
  358. # [12:14] * Philip` tries in vain to think of a concrete example
  359. # [12:17] <Philip`> I don't mean things that conflict incompatibly, just things that define non-commutative changes to parts of HTML5
  360. # [12:18] <mikekelly> Is that point the Smylers guy made true - that html implements the features of related specs/protocols that it deems appropriate?
  361. # [12:18] <Philip`> No
  362. # [12:18] <mikekelly> so interop is an objective?
  363. # [12:19] <Dashiva> Philip`: Could you make up an unrealistic example?
  364. # [12:19] <mikekelly> I really think that http conneg needs to be accepted how its defined right now (as I'm reading it) or re-written to suit the purposes of everyon else's interpretation
  365. # [12:20] <Hixie> Philip`: you have to pick the order in which they apply
  366. # [12:20] <mikekelly> because everyone else's interpretation (regardless of whether it's "practical or not") makes assumptions which are not specified in the spec
  367. # [12:20] <Philip`> Dashiva: Maybe I'm thinking of something like if HTML5 didn't include SVG itself, and a separate spec said "parse everything as normal except when you get an xmlns:xlink attribute do this magic thing etc", and another spec says "parse everything as normal except when you get an xmlns:* attribute do Namespaces-like processing"
  368. # [12:21] <Dashiva> Right
  369. # [12:21] <Dashiva> That's the motivation for internalizing everything requiring parser/tokenizer changes
  370. # [12:21] <Dashiva> Maybe that should be clarified
  371. # [12:22] <Philip`> and so an HTML5+SVG+NS implementation will give different output to an HTML5+NS+SVG implementation
  372. # [12:22] <Hixie> always a risk
  373. # [12:22] <Hixie> but that's the case regardless of what html5 says
  374. # [12:22] <Hixie> since other specs can always say they override it
  375. # [12:22] <Hixie> and you can always chose to honour or not honour spces
  376. # [12:22] <Hixie> specs
  377. # [12:24] <mikekelly> you can assuming you are comfortable with the social costs of doing that
  378. # [12:25] <Philip`> The (hypothetical) issue is that you choose to perfectly honour precisely the same set of specs as somebody else, yet get a different output because you're interpreting them in a different order
  379. # [12:25] <mikekelly> of course that is not of massive concern if you live with your head up your anus
  380. # [12:25] <Philip`> so the order is just as important as the choice of honouring or not
  381. # [12:26] <Hixie> Philip`: yes
  382. # [12:27] <Philip`> mikekelly: Rewriting specs to match reality sounds like a good idea - try asking the HTTP people to do that, if you think they're wrong
  383. # [12:27] <Dashiva> HTTP being wrong? Heresy
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  385. # [12:29] <Philip`> mikekelly: Oh, when I said "No" to you earlier I had misread your question
  386. # [12:29] <Philip`> I thought you said "Is that the point ..." and it wasn't that point, but that wasn't what you said
  387. # [12:29] <Philip`> so ignore my response
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  389. # [12:33] <mikekelly> ok..
  390. # [12:33] <mikekelly> what of http isn't written to match reality?
  391. # [12:34] <mikekelly> i'm not challenging you I'm asking for your opinion
  392. # [12:34] <Philip`> mikekelly: Presumably the bits where you say everybody (except you) disagrees with it
  393. # [12:35] <mikekelly> right - so the conneg definitions which clearly state they are tied to a *request* and yet everyone insist they are somehow tied to client default preferences
  394. # [12:35] <mikekelly> I agree.
  395. # [12:36] <mikekelly> I think you're all missing an opportunity for efficiency gains
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  397. # [12:36] <mikekelly> but that's fine - it should be cleared up in the http spec if everyone insists on being wrong :P
  398. # [12:37] <mikekelly> the world of caching shall forever be flat.
  399. # [12:38] <mikekelly> aside from that, I don't think http gets much wrong
  400. # [12:38] <mikekelly> what else did you have in mind?
  401. # [12:39] <mikekelly> (bearing in mind that HTML's deficiencies will play a large role in what does or doesn't work "in practice")
  402. # [12:39] <mikekelly> presumably why PUT/DELETE are being added
  403. # [12:40] <mikekelly> even though "in practice" PUT/DELETE "don't work"
  404. # [12:40] <mikekelly> because they "aren't used"
  405. # [12:40] <gsnedders> mikekelly: See AryehGregor's email for an example where HTTP cannot help caching, due to the complexity of a lot of websites
  406. # [12:40] <gsnedders> mikekelly: e.g., on my blog, posting a new page via PUT would only invalid one page's cache, not the entire website's as would be needed
  407. # [12:40] <mikekelly> gsnedders: I deliberately didn't repsond to that because the response would be long winded and not a lot to do with html
  408. # [12:40] <mikekelly> it's to do with how you identify resources
  409. # [12:40] <mikekelly> and how granular you make them
  410. # [12:41] <mikekelly> and/or how much you avoid composite resources
  411. # [12:41] <mikekelly> which derive state from other resources
  412. # [12:41] <mikekelly> that is a design decision and your application can address those issues depending on the requirements
  413. # [12:41] <mikekelly> there's also absolutely no requirement to implement that kind of caching mechanisms across the board
  414. # [12:41] <mikekelly> it can be applied where and when it is most valuable
  415. # [12:43] <mikekelly> feel free to contest that btw..
  416. # [12:43] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com)
  417. # [12:44] <mikekelly> gsnedders: if you submit a new post with POST to your 'root' blog resource
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  419. # [12:44] <mikekelly> POST /Blog would indicate the blog resource shouldbe invalidated
  420. # [12:45] <mikekelly> a composite resource at blog would emit the blog post information within the blog resource
  421. # [12:45] <mikekelly> the alternative is to simply provie the links to the posts
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  423. # [12:45] <mikekelly> and use javascript to fetch each post and render it onto the page
  424. # [12:46] <mikekelly> which prevents the blog page becoming stale if you PUT a new version of a particular post
  425. # [12:47] <mikekelly> obviously if you create a new blog post using PUT to a new URI - then the blog page would not be updated
  426. # [12:47] <mikekelly> that makes sense..
  427. # [12:47] <mikekelly> which is why it would make more sense to use POST
  428. # [12:47] * annevk is with othermaciej on the fonts crap
  429. # [12:48] <Philip`> (Becuse a dozen cached requests to generate a blog's front page with a dozen posts is going to be much more efficient than a single uncached request?)
  430. # [12:48] <Philip`> s//a/
  431. # [12:48] <mikekelly> depends on the complexity behind the URI
  432. # [12:48] <mikekelly> that is just an example
  433. # [12:48] <mikekelly> it's a trade-off
  434. # [12:48] <mikekelly> I think I've said that about 12 times now :)
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  436. # [12:50] <mikekelly> disagree?
  437. # [12:51] <mikekelly> ok.. then..
  438. # [12:51] <mikekelly> :)
  439. # [12:53] * Philip` is too busy eating biscuits to disagree
  440. # [12:53] <mikekelly> heh, this is a good example of why we are going round in circles
  441. # [12:54] <mikekelly> gsnedders: which parts of that do you disagree with/are skeptical about?
  442. # [12:55] <annevk> gsnedders, where are you?
  443. # [12:55] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.7)
  444. # [12:55] <annevk> gsnedders, and where do we need to be? I'm somewhere close to the bar, near the beachfront
  445. # [12:56] <gsnedders> annevk: Between the restaurant and the room we were in earlier
  446. # [12:56] <gsnedders> annevk: I'm sitting with jgraham hacking on html5lib
  447. # [12:56] <annevk> good stuff
  448. # [12:57] <annevk> I haven't gotten further than reading email
  449. # [12:57] * annevk was planning on editing
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  451. # [12:59] <annevk> with regards to the range API discussion earlier
  452. # [12:59] <annevk> that is planned
  453. # [12:59] <annevk> but note that hit testing is not actually defined yet anywhere
  454. # [13:00] <annevk> so technically everything is up in the air
  455. # [13:00] <annevk> but if a UA implements a sensible definition of hit testing it will prolly work
  456. # [13:03] <gsnedders> annevk: Is it cold there?
  457. # [13:03] * jgraham would prefer nto be near the beach
  458. # [13:03] <annevk> not really
  459. # [13:03] <jgraham> Or on the beach if the wifi would extend that far
  460. # [13:03] <annevk> dunno about that
  461. # [13:03] <gsnedders> That would be cold.
  462. # [13:04] <gsnedders> This is Sweden, after all.
  463. # [13:04] <annevk> yeah, you need more than a t-shirt
  464. # [13:04] <jgraham> I could get a hat
  465. # [13:04] <annevk> it'd be a start
  466. # [13:04] <jgraham> gloves might make typing hard though
  467. # [13:04] <annevk> though sand in your keyboard sucks
  468. # [13:04] <gsnedders> I have a hoodie t-shirt on, so anything on this looks kinda stupid
  469. # [13:05] <gsnedders> annevk: How'd you get there? Just through the big hall?
  470. # [13:12] <annevk> I ate lunch here
  471. # [13:12] <annevk> there's a staircase just before you enter the dining area
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  474. # [13:19] <gsnedders> annevk: Oh, that place, I thought by "near the beachfront" you meant outside. But there again, here, near the beachfront can quite easily be inside :)
  475. # [13:20] <annevk> indeed
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  538. # [15:52] <gsnedders> html5lib now passes 100% on a stock Python setup!
  539. # [15:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: Now install bs
  540. # [15:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's bullshit
  541. # [15:52] <jgraham> Sigh
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  543. # [16:00] * TabAtkins giggles.
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  556. # [16:35] <TabAtkins> Would anyone have any idea/way of checking if aria roles are already commonly used in HTML on the web?
  557. # [16:38] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I wouldn't
  558. # [16:38] <Philip`> (I can only look at stuff from six months ago)
  559. # [16:38] <TabAtkins> k.
  560. # [16:38] <TabAtkins> Well hey, was aria common the web six months ago?
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  564. # [16:44] <Philip`> TabAtkins: http://philip.html5.org/data/role-attributes-raw.txt is the raw data from 425K dotbot pages
  565. # [16:44] <Philip`> (including non-text/html pages)
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  568. # [16:50] <Philip`> Does the validator.nu parser have the scripting flag enabled or disabled by default?
  569. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Thanks, that's very useful! It appears that aria was almost completely unused.
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  572. # [17:00] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Almost completely used in static markup in pages which were in the sample
  573. # [17:00] <TabAtkins> Yus. Good enough for me.
  574. # [17:00] <Philip`> The "static" is probably the main issue - it's presumably used a lot more in scripted widget libraries, not static content
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  576. # [17:01] <TabAtkins> Philip`: But I don't see a single aria-related use of role which is grossly changing the semantics of the element it is applied to, which is what I was looking for.
  577. # [17:02] <TabAtkins> I expect that widget libraries tend to rely on <div> and <span>, where all roles are valid, and thus they aren't relevant to the discussion with Leif.
  578. # [17:02] <Philip`> TabAtkins: http://google.com/codesearch?q=role%3D+lang%3Ahtml
  579. # [17:02] <Philip`> That might be more useful
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  581. # [17:03] <Philip`> http://google.com/codesearch?q=role%3D+lang%3Ajs too
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  583. # [17:04] <TabAtkins> That is useful, thank ou!
  584. # [17:04] <Philip`> Dojo uses waiRole="..."? I thought it was meant to be role="..."...
  585. # [17:05] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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  588. # [17:11] <Philip`> Why aren't computers infinitely fast :-(
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  603. # [17:52] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Because if they were we'd be living in a simulation with probability 100%.
  604. # [17:57] <mikekelly> hello browser people
  605. # [17:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can I just make html5lib raise a warning with bs + ns?
  606. # [17:59] * Guest36482 is now known as mattl
  607. # [17:59] <mikekelly> is there a chance we could ever have functionality where javascript can cause new page to load with custom headers?
  608. # [18:03] <Philip`> zcorpan: Ping
  609. # [18:03] * Quits: karlushi (n=karlushi@192.206.28.62) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  610. # [18:04] * gsnedders notes he hasn't seen zcorpan with a computer all day
  611. # [18:04] <Philip`> He can read logs :-)
  612. # [18:04] <gsnedders> I am aware. I'm just letting you know you won't get a quick response
  613. # [18:04] <Philip`> Or you could ping him manually
  614. # [18:04] <Philip`> if you're near him
  615. # [18:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: I don't think he's in this room
  616. # [18:05] <Philip`> or even point him at http://philip.html5.org/data/cdata-containing-self-close.txt
  617. # [18:05] <Philip`> which hopefully isn't too incompatible with what he wanted
  618. # [18:06] * Philip` is happy to wait until whenever he gets back here
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  630. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: pong from zcorpan
  631. # [18:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: It already does, doesn't it?
  632. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: thanks from zcorpan
  633. # [18:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: WAKE UP!
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  635. # [18:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: If you use figlet you can shout louder on IRC, which might wake him up
  636. # [18:36] <RIK|WORK> PS : IT IS CAPS LOCK DAY
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  638. # [18:39] <Philip`> RIK|WORK: I have caps lock on all the time but I hold down shift too so that I irritate people less
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  648. # [19:00] <Philip`> The spec comment box ought to be bigger
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The end :)