/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 23 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> roc: Which is easier for you - (1) defaulting the first/last stops if necessary, then correcting misordered stops, then defaulting any remaining stops, or (2) correcting misordered stops, then defaulting all remaining stops, with first being min(0,first specified stop) and last being max(100%,last specified stop)?
  10. # [00:08] <roc> the former, since that's what I implemented
  11. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> kk.
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  13. # [00:09] <roc> it's efficient, I do it in O(N) time in the number of stops, and it's reasonably simple
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  18. # [00:11] <sicking> Hixie: does @rel no longer allow URI tokens?
  19. # [00:12] <sicking> Hixie: without registring them in the wiki that is
  20. # [00:12] <Hixie> it's never allowed tokens that aren't registered as far as i recall
  21. # [00:12] <Hixie> registering them is pretty trivial though
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  24. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> roc: Changes made, and are visible in the draft on my site. Thanks for the "specified position" terminology - I was struggling with how to say that. Also rearranged/reworded linear-gradient()'s treatment of the two <angle> cases to allow the behavior you've implemented.
  25. # [00:17] <roc> yay, thanks
  26. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> No problem; thanks for implementing it. ^_^ I'm speccing the repeating-* functions now.
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  28. # [00:22] <roc> BTW, Firefox builds with the implementation here: https://build.mozilla.org/tryserver-builds/zweinberg@mozilla.com-try-89caaae7381c
  29. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> There any instructions on installing ff builds? Never done one before.
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  31. # [00:31] <roc> depends on the platform
  32. # [00:31] <roc> but these builds install just like any other Firefox release
  33. # [00:32] <roc> if you're on Windows, the easiest thing to do is to just download the ZIP, unzip it somewhere, and run firefox.exe
  34. # [00:32] <roc> it's that simple
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  36. # [00:33] <Philip`> and make sure you're not already running a Firefox process
  37. # [00:33] <roc> you may want to run "firefox.exe -P" and create a new profile for testing, that lets you run concurrently with an already-running Firefox
  38. # [00:34] <Philip`> Don't you need to add -noremote or something?
  39. # [00:34] <roc> yeah, you probably do
  40. # [00:35] <Philip`> So it's not quite that simple ;-)
  41. # [00:35] <roc> running with a different profile can also be good because there is also a small chance that running a trunk build with your existing profile will cause problems when you go back to using your release version with that profile, although that has never happened to me, so the chances are very small indeed
  42. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Since I do IRC using chatzilla, being able to run it concurrently seems useful.
  43. # [00:36] <roc> Philip`: perhaps Tab runs IE as his main browser? :-)
  44. # [00:37] <jwalden> TabAtkins: http://chatzilla.rdmsoft.com/xulrunner/
  45. # [00:37] * Philip` shudders
  46. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> No, I run chatzilla in FF, gmail in chrome, then everything else in whichever one is handy when I ctrl+t.
  47. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> jwalden: Thanks!
  48. # [00:41] <jwalden> chatzilla as its own app is so much money it's not even funny
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  50. # [00:42] <jwalden> especially back when its link-opening behavior wouldn't open a new tab but rather blow away the most recent one
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  52. # [00:43] <daedb> sigh... I'm trying to learn some simple <canvas> stuff (using Dive into html5 as a guide), and I can't even get past the first bloody getContext. Javascript hates me :(
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  55. # [00:46] <Philip`> daedb: Sounds like a bug in Dive into HTML5 if you can't get its examples to work
  56. # [00:46] <Philip`> daedb: Blame mpilgrim :-)
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  59. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> All right, got it running. Awesome.
  60. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> That was too easy.
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  62. # [00:51] <daedb> Philip`: I found a tutorial on Mozilla's dev site, and it's exactly the same with their example code...
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  65. # [00:53] <Philip`> daedb: What kind of problem are you getting?
  66. # [00:53] <Philip`> daedb: Also, what browser are you running it in? (I hope it's not IE :-) )
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  68. # [00:54] <daedb> Philip`: <script>var canvas = document.getElementById('tid'); var context = canvas.getContext('2d');</script> <-- all my code so far, gives a TypeError (message: Statement on line 1: Cannot convert undefined or null to Object
  69. # [00:54] <daedb> )
  70. # [00:54] <daedb> this is in Opera, btw
  71. # [00:54] <Philip`> daedb: Do you have a <canvas id=tid></canvas>, before the script?
  72. # [00:56] <daedb> The <canvas> has to be before the <script>? I had the script in the head...
  73. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> The script is trying to run before the <canvas> is loaded.
  74. # [00:57] <Philip`> Is there some way I can do something equivalent to <div style="background: black; opacity: 0.8"> (on top of a background image) that also works in IE6+?
  75. # [00:57] <daedb> Whee, it works after moving down the script. Thanks, Philip`!
  76. # [00:57] <Philip`> daedb: The <script> executes as soon as it's parsed, so the <canvas> hasn't been parsed yet, but you could solve it more nicely by using onload
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  78. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Philip: use a PNG and one of the pngFix libraries?
  79. # [00:57] <Philip`> daedb: like <script>function draw() { var canvas = ... }; window.onload = draw;</script> ... <canvas>
  80. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Or like <script>$(function(){ var canvas=...; });</script> ^_^
  81. # [00:59] <Philip`> TabAtkins: My way requires tens of kilobytes less scripting :-p
  82. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Bah.
  83. # [01:00] <daedb> heh, I don't do much javascript... I should probably learn it properly some day :p
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  85. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> It's a good language, once you library your way past the bad DOM apis.
  86. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Sigh... Damn you, magic fieldset styling. I hate you *so* much.
  87. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> Ah, but bless you, details. Trivial to hack support for, and just the right element for my needs.
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  90. # [01:20] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Aha, it works if I do a transparent-PNG-fix style thing
  91. # [01:20] <Philip`> without needing an actual PNG
  92. # [01:20] <Philip`> just using filter:progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.Alpha(opacity=80);
  93. # [01:20] <Philip`> (at least in IE8, I assume it'll work in IE6/7 too)
  94. # [01:27] <Hixie> hm
  95. # [01:27] <Hixie> i don't say how to handle <link type=""> if the type can't be parsed
  96. # [01:27] <Hixie> wonder what the spec should say for that case
  97. # [01:31] <Philip`> Fatal error, YSOD
  98. # [01:33] <Hixie> mmhm
  99. # [01:34] <Hixie> webkit seems to ignore type="" altogether
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  102. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Oh, duh. I knew MS had a plain opacity filter. Silly me.
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  108. # [02:31] <TabAtkins> roc: Specced repeating gradients. Let me know if something doesn't match your implementation.
  109. # [02:31] <roc> ta
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  111. # [02:46] <roc> TabAtkins: looks great
  112. # [02:49] <Hixie> watcha guys working on that has all these gradient thingies?
  113. # [02:50] <roc> CSS gradients spec
  114. # [02:50] <roc> sorry, off topic
  115. # [02:50] <Hixie> oh, cool
  116. # [02:50] <Hixie> not at all off topic, don't worry
  117. # [02:50] <Hixie> this channel has no topic
  118. # [02:50] <Hixie> the only thing that's off-topic is logic
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  124. # [02:58] <Hixie> anyone remember what IE's equivalent of event.target is?
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  127. # [03:01] <miketaylr> event.srcElement?
  128. # [03:02] <Hixie> thanks
  129. # [03:02] <miketaylr> np
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  137. # [04:00] <TabAtkins> roc: Oh man, gradient support looks beautiful. Thanks so much.
  138. # [04:00] <roc> pleasure
  139. # [04:00] <roc> thanks for writing a decent spec
  140. # [04:01] <roc> a good spec, atually
  141. # [04:02] <TabAtkins> Woo!
  142. # [04:02] <TabAtkins> /spec high-five
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  164. # [06:01] <othermaciej> we should update WebKit's gradient implementation
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  167. # [06:08] <Hixie> what does an HTTP client do when an HTTP _server_ (not proxy) replies with 407?
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  169. # [06:09] <weinig> othermaciej: how different is the new spec?
  170. # [06:10] <othermaciej> weinig: different (arguably better) syntax from what we had I think
  171. # [06:10] * weinig should take a look
  172. # [06:10] <othermaciej> Hixie: I would assume either "get really confused" or "report an error"
  173. # [06:11] <othermaciej> oddly, it's not something we've tested
  174. # [06:12] <othermaciej> weinig: if I'm well enough to come in tomorrow I may borrow you part of the day to work on some standards stuff - we need to give feedback on File API and maybe you can help me, and maybe I can take a whack at helping you update Web IDL to ES5
  175. # [06:12] <weinig> othermaciej: I would very much like that
  176. # [06:12] <othermaciej> that being said, my throat still feels like it's full of razor blades duct taped to angry badgers, so I have my doubts about being in tomorrow
  177. # [06:13] <weinig> othermaciej: :(
  178. # [06:14] <othermaciej> weinig: it sound like a lot of our team is out of action with something possibly similar, so I'm hesitant to go into the office til I'm confident that I am not contagious
  179. # [06:16] <weinig> othermaciej: yeah, it does seem like there is a hit out on the safari team, flu wise
  180. # [06:24] <Hixie> 0 e-mails
  181. # [06:24] <Hixie> 1 XXX marker (which I am not fixing this year, it's "define WebSQL")
  182. # [06:24] <Hixie> 22 bugs!
  183. # [06:24] <Hixie> where did they come from!
  184. # [06:24] <Hixie> we were at zero!
  185. # [06:24] <Hixie> man, this never ends
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  192. # [06:59] <JoePeck> Where would I go to find out about all the html node list / collection types? NodeList, HTMLCollection, HTMLOptionsCollection. Are there others?
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  195. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> fyi: error messages for obsolete messages now patched in v.nu source to include suggestions about what to use instead
  196. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/obsolete/acronym.html
  197. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> "The acronym element is obsolete. Use the abbr element instead."
  198. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> still need to add reporting for obsolete attributes
  199. # [07:07] <Hixie> JoePeck: HTML5 defines some of them, the rest are probably in DOM Core
  200. # [07:07] <JoePeck> Hixie: thanks, bdash pointed me to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#collections-0
  201. # [07:17] * Hixie tries to remember why we need a secondary insertion mode at all
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  203. # [07:20] <Hixie> oh it's so that <table><tr><td><svg></table> closes the table
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  241. # [09:44] <Hixie> well
  242. # [09:44] <Hixie> technically i'm at 0,1,0
  243. # [09:44] <Hixie> i guess it's time to find out what i'm supposed to do to go to last call with all these specs
  244. # [09:46] <Philip`> Quick, somebody file more bugs!
  245. # [09:47] <Philip`> "If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED." - does that need to be done by the reporter even for ones reported anonymously through the spec comment box?
  246. # [09:48] <Hixie> othermaciej said no, i think
  247. # [09:49] <Hixie> not sure though
  248. # [09:49] <othermaciej> no one *has* to do it
  249. # [09:49] <othermaciej> but if it's not done, then eventually the bug times out into NoReply
  250. # [09:49] <Philip`> Is it something that preferably should be done?
  251. # [09:50] <othermaciej> it would be nice to have a record of agreement for some comments, at least once HTML WG Last Call begins
  252. # [09:50] <othermaciej> and also, I like it when the bug system accurately reflects reality
  253. # [09:50] <othermaciej> so I personally prefer it
  254. # [09:50] <othermaciej> but no one will yell at you if you don't do it
  255. # [09:52] <Hixie> Philip`: if you agree with all of them, just search for your IP and mass-close them :-)
  256. # [09:52] <Philip`> Reflecting reality sounds like a worthwhile goal
  257. # [09:52] <Hixie> oh, hey, it turns out the whatwg charter doesn't have a "last call" stage
  258. # [09:52] <Hixie> we just keep doing call for comments until we're done
  259. # [09:52] <Hixie> that's pretty sensible
  260. # [09:52] <Philip`> Hixie: Mass-closing doesn't help much when I have to individually read every one to work out if I agree or not :-)
  261. # [09:53] <Hixie> Philip`: well you can read them in your e-mail client
  262. # [09:53] <Hixie> Philip`: but if you go to the bug, then sure
  263. # [09:53] <Philip`> Oh
  264. # [09:53] <Philip`> Problem: I can't close the bugs
  265. # [09:53] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  266. # [09:53] <Philip`> since I'm not the owner or anything
  267. # [09:55] <Hixie> zcorpan has rights to give you rights to give yourself the rights to close the bug, iirc
  268. # [09:55] <Hixie> (i do not, again iirc)
  269. # [10:00] <Philip`> Seems like a flaw in the LC process if reporters can't close their bugs without asking zcorpan
  270. # [10:05] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com)
  271. # [10:10] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Can somebody like you give me bug-editing privileges?
  272. # [10:14] <othermaciej> Philip`: MikeSmith almost certainly can give you the privileges and probably will be willing to if you are a heavy bug filer
  273. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I will give you editbugs now
  274. # [10:17] <Philip`> I have something like a dozen that I mostly want to close now, and will probably have more in the future since I only read up to about p30 out of 654 :-)
  275. # [10:19] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Thanks!
  276. # [10:19] <Philip`> MikeSmith: (Do you need to know my email address or anything?)
  277. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> Philip`: excors one, right?
  278. # [10:20] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Yep
  279. # [10:20] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com)
  280. # [10:22] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Seems to work fine
  281. # [10:23] <Philip`> Don't know if I really need the "member of the XSL or XQuery WG" permission bit but I won't complain
  282. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, it does that for everybody .. I have no idea why
  283. # [10:24] <Philip`> Sounds like they're even more open than the HTML WG
  284. # [10:24] <Philip`> since anybody can become a member, whether they want to be or not
  285. # [10:24] * gsnedders stretches and goes back to html5lib work
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  289. # [10:44] <Philip`> "omitting tags doesn't lead to people dying" - but what if you're using HTML to control a nuclear power station?
  290. # [10:44] <Hixie> aw man, are you really gonna make me rewrite that algorithm using position/input
  291. # [10:45] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@132.185.240.11)
  292. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> or to control an electric chair
  293. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> (another use case to consider)
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  295. # [10:47] <Philip`> Hixie: Feel free to rewrite it however you want, as long as it's not more ambiguous than the rest of the spec :-)
  296. # [10:47] * Joins: remysharp (n=remyshar@80.229.253.218)
  297. # [10:47] <Hixie> i was at zero bugs for 30 minutes
  298. # [10:48] <Hixie> 30 minutes!
  299. # [10:48] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Then errors in the markup might accidentally lead to not killing somebody, which seems like exactly the opposite problem
  300. # [10:48] <Hixie> admittedly i was rather lost for those 30 minutes, not sure what to do with myself
  301. # [10:48] <Hixie> i mean, i've had things on this pile for 6 years now
  302. # [10:48] <Hixie> and suddenly there was no pile
  303. # [10:48] <Hixie> so it's reassuring to know the pile grows back so fast
  304. # [10:48] <Hixie> but still
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  312. # [11:19] <gsnedders> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLICa> throws two parse errors in the DOCTYPE
  313. # [11:19] <gsnedders> Both at the "a"
  314. # [11:19] <gsnedders> Firstly, in "anything else" in After DOCTYPE public keyord state
  315. # [11:19] <gsnedders> Then a second parse error in the Before DOCTYPE public identifer state when it is reconsumed there
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  317. # [11:20] <Philip`> Does that matter?
  318. # [11:20] <gsnedders> Normally we've tried to avoid a single error giving multiple parse errors, no?
  319. # [11:20] <Hixie> file a bug
  320. # [11:21] <Hixie> telling me how to fix it
  321. # [11:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: You never used to require that!
  322. # [11:21] <Hixie> i'm lazier now :-P
  323. # [11:21] * gsnedders is too
  324. # [11:21] * Hixie just changed the status of all the sections that were in pre-LC to LC
  325. # [11:22] <gsnedders> So WHATWG is in LC now?
  326. # [11:22] <Hixie> not yet
  327. # [11:23] <Hixie> actually technically as i discovered earlier, whatwg doesn't have an lc state :-)
  328. # [11:23] <gsnedders> s/an/a/
  329. # [11:23] <Hixie> "an ell sea"
  330. # [11:23] <Philip`> "a lick"
  331. # [11:24] <gsnedders> "a last call"
  332. # [11:24] <Hixie> should i add section markers to all <h3>s and <h4>s that don't have one?
  333. # [11:24] <Hixie> i mean, status markers
  334. # [11:24] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B014F5D.dip.t-dialin.net)
  335. # [11:24] * gsnedders grumbles at being unable to change the email address in the W3C bug tracker
  336. # [11:32] <gsnedders> Hixie: The space characters cases within the before DOCTYPE public/system identifier states can never be reached. To fix that, remove those cases.
  337. # [11:33] <Hixie> type that into the box and hit "send review comments" :-)
  338. # [11:33] <gsnedders> 8018
  339. # [11:33] <Hixie> ta
  340. # [11:37] <erlehmann> Hixie, what is the next state called then ? waiting for implementations ?
  341. # [11:38] <Hixie> yeah
  342. # [11:39] * gsnedders is trying to get html5lib shipped in around a week
  343. # [11:39] <Hixie> cool
  344. # [11:40] <gsnedders> (I got to the point where the impl passes all TCs yesterday)
  345. # [11:40] <gsnedders> It's just neither the TCs nor the impl are entirely up to date :)
  346. # [11:41] <Hixie> i know _that_ feeling
  347. # [11:42] <Philip`> gsnedders: At least the spec is up to date, so the situation is not all bad
  348. # [11:42] <Philip`> Well, up to date except for the bug you just filed
  349. # [11:42] <Hixie> he filed 2! :-)
  350. # [11:42] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-haukjrvtecwcobvh)
  351. # [11:43] <gsnedders> Well, it seemed easier to fix all the failing tests first
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  353. # [11:46] <gsnedders> I also got stuff properly tested in both namespaced and non-namespaced mode
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  369. # [12:54] <Philip`> I'm glad we have a relatively regular calendar system now, and don't have to make do with datetime strings like "nine months after the death of Tiberius, on the eighteenth day before the Kalends of January, just as the sun rose"
  370. # [13:00] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@8.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com)
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  378. # [13:23] <Dashiva> Philip`: You still have to deal with it if you're a classical scholar
  379. # [13:23] <Philip`> Dashiva: Fortunately I'm not
  380. # [13:23] <Dashiva> Although wouldn't 18 days before kalends be referenced relative to ides instead?
  381. # [13:23] * Parts: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  382. # [13:24] <Philip`> http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cal/jansas.htm says no
  383. # [13:24] <Dashiva> Or nones, for that matter. Just not kalends.
  384. # [13:24] * Joins: NetBen (n=chatzill@213.208.242.186)
  385. # [13:25] <Dashiva> Oh, right, december has ides on the 13th
  386. # [13:25] <Philip`> I don't quite understand why the 3rd day before Kalends of January is the day before the day before Kalends of January
  387. # [13:27] * Quits: tkent (n=tkent@220.109.219.244) ("Leaving...")
  388. # [13:27] <Dashiva> It's a translation issue
  389. # [13:27] <Dashiva> There was a special word for the day before
  390. # [13:27] <Philip`> Anyway, you probably shouldn't disagree with C. Suetonius Tranquillus about Roman calendars :-p
  391. # [13:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: Does http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8019 look all right?
  392. # [13:28] <Hixie> yeah
  393. # [13:28] <Dashiva> "Pridie"
  394. # [13:28] <Philip`> Dashiva: Even with a special word, why is it "3rd"?
  395. # [13:28] <Dashiva> I've forgotten so much
  396. # [13:29] * Philip` didn't even know so much
  397. # [13:29] <Dashiva> Philip`: They count inclusively
  398. # [13:31] <Dashiva> You see the same with easter
  399. # [13:31] <Dashiva> Jesus is supposed to be dead three days, but he cheats and gets up on the second day because he's counting inclusively
  400. # [13:33] <Philip`> kalends, pridie kalendas, tertio kalendas (going backwards) it seems
  401. # [13:33] <Philip`> I suppose it makes sense if you don't translate as "day before"
  402. # [13:34] * Joins: andr3 (n=andre@194.65.5.235)
  403. # [13:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: You have any intention to update your generated tests soon?
  404. # [13:36] <Philip`> gsnedders: The tokeniser ones?
  405. # [13:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah
  406. # [13:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: With my proposed edit to the spec in 8019 404 tests fail, almost all because of DOCTYPE changes at end of Sept
  407. # [13:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: No, unless I run out of other things to work on first, or someone gives me lots of money to do it :-p
  408. # [13:39] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba_@122.221.184.68) ("Leaving...")
  409. # [13:39] <Philip`> (I think it'd involve lots of rewriting the OCaml tokeniser to match years of spec changes)
  410. # [13:39] <Philip`> (which is a bit tedious)
  411. # [13:45] <bogphanny> Can someone please give me an example of how the <keygen> tag would typically be used in a real life example?
  412. # [13:50] * Joins: |zalan| (n=zalan@catv-89-135-144-122.catv.broadband.hu)
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  416. # [14:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: OK, I've manually updated them now
  417. # [14:03] * Joins: annevk42 (n=annevk@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com)
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  420. # [14:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: you still there?
  421. # [14:08] <Hixie> yup
  422. # [14:09] <gsnedders> RCDATA state when it comes to & goes to character reference in data state, and then after parsing entity it goes to data state. bug, right?
  423. # [14:09] <Hixie> yeah
  424. # [14:10] * gsnedders files yet another bug
  425. # [14:11] <Hixie> good lord
  426. # [14:12] <murr4y> you miss those 30 minutes now, eh? :D
  427. # [14:13] * gsnedders has only filed three bugs today :P
  428. # [14:13] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@12.182.97.2) (Remote closed the connection)
  429. # [14:14] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html?period=0 is depressing
  430. # [14:14] <Hixie> (well ok not really)
  431. # [14:14] <Hixie> (it's pretty awesome really)
  432. # [14:14] <Hixie> but still!
  433. # [14:15] * gsnedders just sees yellow block in all browsers
  434. # [14:15] * murr4y too :p
  435. # [14:15] <murr4y> (all 2, ff3/opera10)
  436. # [14:17] <Hixie> y'all need better browsers
  437. # [14:17] <gsnedders> Estimated date for last e-mail based on the data above: 2009-10-23
  438. # [14:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: If you can fix 8029 soon…
  439. # [14:20] <Hixie> i expect to bring the bug list to 0 tomorrow again
  440. # [14:21] <gsnedders> yay!
  441. # [14:21] * gsnedders generally just wants to get html5lib out ASAP
  442. # [14:21] <gsnedders> (Last release was in Jun 2008)
  443. # [14:22] <Hixie> i'm preparing the blog post for when we go to last call
  444. # [14:22] <Hixie> anything i should mention?
  445. # [14:23] <gsnedders> "We need a test suite, kthxbai"
  446. # [14:24] <Hixie> i don't plan to start looking at the test suite til 2011, according to the time table
  447. # [14:24] <Philip`> Got to leave plenty of time for untested buggy implementations to establish legacy for future generations
  448. # [14:25] <Philip`> Then we can write test suites and say "ha ha you got it all wrong" and it'll be too late to change anything
  449. # [14:25] <Hixie> well there are plenty of bits of testsuite all over the place
  450. # [14:25] <Philip`> Sounds like a good plan to me
  451. # [14:26] <Hixie> what we really need is someone who can do this as a fulltime job
  452. # [14:28] <annevk42> chaals talks about standards: "WHAT-WG: Hacking with friends"
  453. # [14:28] <Philip`> Hixie: What we really need is employers who let people do it as a fulltime job
  454. # [14:29] <Hixie> ok i think i'm ready to go to cfc/lc as soon as the bug list is back to zero again
  455. # [14:30] <Hixie> i just need to change the web workers, vocab, html5, and complete.html drafts to class=cfc instead of class=draft and post the blog post
  456. # [14:31] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-smtzqgqfmmhykege)
  457. # [14:32] <annevk42> a stable copy would be nice
  458. # [14:32] <annevk42> like we did with Web Forms back in the days when it was in Last Call
  459. # [14:32] <Hixie> yeah
  460. # [14:32] <Hixie> the scripts won't work in that though
  461. # [14:32] <Hixie> at least the status and bug reporting ones won't
  462. # [14:32] <annevk42> makes sense
  463. # [14:32] * Philip` will have to keep filing new bugs
  464. # [14:33] <Philip`> Someone needs to set up an IRC bot that alerts everyone when there's only one bug left
  465. # [14:33] <Hixie> Philip`: your bugs are starting to get so editorial that they're almost trivial to deal with, you need to find more serious problems if you want to slow me down. :-)
  466. # [14:33] <Philip`> so we can all rush and add more
  467. # [14:33] * gsnedders has found three technical issues today, hence he > Philip`
  468. # [14:34] <Hixie> oh gsnedders did the change to the 'reset' algorithm fix the foreign content stuff?
  469. # [14:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: What where?
  470. # [14:35] * Quits: svtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  471. # [14:35] <Hixie> the "reset the insertion mode" algorithm changed earlier today
  472. # [14:35] <gsnedders> Oh, I've not changed html5lib for that yet
  473. # [14:35] * Philip` probably shouldn't have started reading the spec from the beginning, if he wanted to find serious issues
  474. # [14:36] <gsnedders> I just got the tokenizer up to the end of September (excluding things that have changed this month too)
  475. # [14:36] <Hixie> ah ok
  476. # [14:36] <annevk42> so Philip` finally got bored with finding bugs in XML tools and is now taking on the full HTML5 spec? :)
  477. # [14:36] <Hixie> i'd love to know if the reset change i did earlier today actually fixes the problem
  478. # [14:36] <Hixie> i wasn't 100% convinced it would
  479. # [14:37] <Hixie> btw to fix the entity stuff i'm just gonna have to create a new state for entities in rcdata, right?
  480. # [14:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: right
  481. # [14:37] <Hixie> k that'll be easy then
  482. # [14:38] <gsnedders> I didn't say I was finding hard technical issues :)
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  484. # [14:40] <Philip`> annevk42: I wouldn't say "full", because I'm sure I'll stop before I get to the end of it :-p
  485. # [14:43] <Hixie> right. I'm gonna go to bed so that the 13 bugs can become 50 bugs and give me some stuff to do tomorrow
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  489. # [16:44] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  490. # [16:44] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  501. # [17:15] <gsnedders> "script data escaped dash dash state"… oh dear…
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  580. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Quick question: In C, do variable names and function names live in separate namespaces? (Unrelated to current namespace-related discussion. ^_^)
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  583. # [20:55] <boogyman> hola
  584. # [20:55] <Philip`> TabAtkins: No
  585. # [20:56] <Philip`> TabAtkins: or yes
  586. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Hrm. So I can't have a function named "add" and a variable named "add"?
  587. # [20:56] <Philip`> You can have a global function called "add" and a local variable called "add" (which will shadow the function)
  588. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Damns, I thought they were separate. Kk.
  589. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> How does that not cause problems? ::boggles::
  590. # [20:57] <Philip`> The syntax lets you write stuff like &add which will apply to both functions and variables
  591. # [20:57] <boogyman> can someone please explain the functionality http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#ping
  592. # [20:58] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Why would it cause problems?
  593. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> boogyman: If a user clicks on a link with @ping, the UA will do a normal navigation to whatever the @href is, but it will *also* fire off GET requests to all the urls in @ping.
  594. # [20:58] <Philip`> If you have a function and say "int add = 2;" then 'add' (in that scope) will refer to that variable, regardless of what's defined in global scope, which seems quite sensible
  595. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Well, you basically have a big set of global variables you have to manage, and be careful not to shadow.
  596. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> Because then you can't go "add(add,3)"
  597. # [20:59] <Philip`> POST, not GET
  598. # [20:59] <Philip`> (for ping)
  599. # [20:59] <Philip`> TabAtkins: You can just rename the local variable in that case
  600. # [21:00] <Philip`> (C++ lets you write ::add to refer to the global scope, but that's ugly)
  601. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Maybe the C-likes don't have the same problems with names that Lisps do. We name a lot of functions with words that also are useful as argument names.
  602. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> Like the word "list", which shadows the "list" function in Scheme. (In CL it doens't shadow, because they live in different namespaces.)
  603. # [21:01] <boogyman> TabAtkins: so @ping provides a method to multi-submit the corresponding node?
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  605. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> boogyman: If "node" means what I assume it does, then yes?
  606. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> It's meant to allow you to, frex, track how often a particular link is clicked.
  607. # [21:02] <Philip`> TabAtkins: C-like languages don't have the problem of dynamic scoping, which makes it more easily manageable
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  609. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> Lexical, you mean. C-likes *do* use dynamic scoping. ^_^
  610. # [21:03] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I think you've got it precisely the wrong way round
  611. # [21:03] <boogyman> so not necessarily multi-submit the node for processing, but submit the node to @href for processing and @ping for "tracking" purposes?
  612. # [21:04] <TabAtkins> boogyman: Yes.
  613. # [21:04] <boogyman> ok, thx
  614. # [21:04] <Philip`> There's nothing dynamic about scoping in C, it's just based on the nesting in the syntax, hence being lexical scoping
  615. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> Philip`: No, you've got it wrong way round. Lexical scoping is what allows closures - you resolve free variables based on what's present at the time the function is defined. Dynamic means you resolve based on what's present at call-time.
  616. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_(programming)
  617. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> Rather, not at the time the function is defined, but simply at what's present in the surrounding text where the free variable occurs.
  618. # [21:07] <Philip`> TabAtkins: No, *you've* got it the wrong way round :-p
  619. # [21:07] <Philip`> http://foldoc.org/lexical+scope vs http://foldoc.org/dynamic+scope etc - C does lexical (static) scoping
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  621. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> In C:
  622. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> int x = 0;
  623. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> int f() { return x; }
  624. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> int g() { int x = 1; return f(); }
  625. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> What does g() return?
  626. # [21:08] <Philip`> 0
  627. # [21:08] <Philip`> because it's not dynamic scoping
  628. # [21:09] <Philip`> and the references to x are resolved statically at compile-time
  629. # [21:09] <Philip`> based on lexical information, not dynamic run-time information
  630. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> I could have *sworn* C-likes used dynamic scoping. Guess I'm misremembering my high-school days.
  631. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> In any case, CL and Scheme are both lexical-scope languages, except for their special variables.
  632. # [21:10] <Philip`> It would be really weird if C did dictionary lookups on every variable reference
  633. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> It doesn't need dictionary lookups to implement dynamic scope. You just keep a stack around for each binding, pushing and popping as you move between scopes.
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  635. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> Man, what is *up* with that foldoc article. I *assure* you that "(setf x 0) (defun f () x) (defun g () (let ((x 1)) (f))) (g)" returns 0. Emacs-lisp is a dynamic-scope language, and a number of early lisps were as well, but *all* modern lisps are lexical.
  636. # [21:15] <Philip`> What's "modern"?
  637. # [21:15] <Philip`> That page was last updated 13 years ago
  638. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Common Lisp and anything created after it.
  639. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Wow, no wonder. CL was a new guy at that point.
  640. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Jeezus.
  641. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> So in conclusion: I had it the right way round, I was just misremembering my C.
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  643. # [21:21] <TabAtkins> Unrelated: Just got my first "Good Answer" badge on SO with a question about <video>. ^_^
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  677. # [22:28] * and` finds it ironic that his last e-mail on character encoding problems is affected by that very issue.
  678. # [22:28] <Dashiva> That's not ironic
  679. # [22:29] <Dashiva> Ironic would be if your email was about having fixed the character encoding problems :)
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  681. # [22:31] <and`> Right. I actually tried to fix a problem with missing curly quotes by adding ASCII quotes and ended up with both.
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  690. # [23:03] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  691. # [23:13] * Joins: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@32.137.95.135)
  692. # [23:14] <Hixie> Philip`: the "sets of..." are all strings
  693. # [23:16] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.66) ("Leaving...")
  694. # [23:22] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-uhipkviwjduoaczb) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  695. # [23:22] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-rprdnzctemydkptd)
  696. # [23:26] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  697. # [23:27] * Quits: yael (i=d0309a43@gateway/web/freenode/x-nxeppiafgfzemqsr) ("Page closed")
  698. # [23:27] * Quits: miketaylr (n=miketayl@38.117.156.163)
  699. # [23:32] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Remote closed the connection)
  700. # [23:32] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  701. # [23:39] <Philip`> Hixie: Indeed, but they're called sets and it says they're sets
  702. # [23:40] <Philip`> when they're actually just strings that represent sets
  703. # [23:42] * Parts: ojan (n=ojan@72.14.229.81)
  704. # [23:44] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@222-152-160-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  705. # [23:47] * Quits: roc (n=roc@222-152-167-228.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  706. # [23:47] * roc_ is now known as roc
  707. # [23:53] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-64.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  708. # [23:56] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@32.137.95.135) (Remote closed the connection)
  709. # [23:59] <inimino> Philip`: as opposed to being just bytes in some datatype that represent a set? ;-)
  710. # Session Close: Sat Oct 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)