/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 24 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:02] <Philip`> inimino: As opposed to being a mathematical construct that is a set, and that can be manipulated in a normal set-based way and can be parsed from strings and serialised to strings
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  6. # [00:07] * Philip` happily manages to get his C++ code call JS code that calls C++ code, but unhappily realises he implemented infinite recursion
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  8. # [00:13] <Hixie> where does it say they are sets?
  9. # [00:13] <Hixie> oh, i see
  10. # [00:15] <Philip`> I don't think it's worth changing the spec, since it's easy enough to work out they're strings
  11. # [00:15] <Hixie> i changed the "is a set" bit
  12. # [00:15] <Hixie> i didn't change the names of the things
  13. # [00:15] <Hixie> the names are opaque!
  14. # [00:15] <Hixie> or so i shall claim
  15. # [00:16] <Hixie> ok, e-mail is back to zero
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  17. # [00:16] <Hixie> 17 bugs!
  18. # [00:16] <Hixie> man
  19. # [00:17] * Philip` quite likes RDF's clear separation of lexical spaces and value spaces
  20. # [00:17] <Philip`> Hixie: It's not the 50 that you asked for :-(
  21. # [00:17] <Hixie> heh
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  23. # [00:18] <Hixie> (agreed about lexical vs value being a useful seggregation -- i'll know better for next time, i guess)
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  25. # [00:19] <Hixie> ok shower, meeting, bbl.
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  29. # [00:25] <othermaciej> I have some bugs I need to file
  30. # [00:25] <othermaciej> maybe now is a good time
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  66. # [02:44] <annodomini> Are there any groups working on standardizing any sort of web archive format (bundle of web pages and resources that can be distributed as a single file)?
  67. # [02:45] * Joins: torchie (n=torchie@adsl-11-112-98.mia.bellsouth.net)
  68. # [02:45] <torchie> so does <canvas width="100" height="100"> make a canvas that fills up the whole view or does that need percentages
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  71. # [02:46] <annodomini> From what I can tell, Safari has its own web archive format, Microsoft has its own, KDE has it's own, and there's ePub for a specialized niche, but nothing general purpose.
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  77. # [02:54] <Philip`> torchie: That is the size of the canvas bitmap in pixels
  78. # [02:54] <torchie> oh
  79. # [02:55] <Philip`> You'd have to use CSS if you want to stretch it to percentage sizes
  80. # [02:55] <Philip`> (but that won't make the bitmap have more pixels, so it won't look very good)
  81. # [02:55] <Philip`> (so you'd have to write some script to resize and redraw the canvas bitmap as necessary)
  82. # [02:55] <torchie> well what I wanted to do was make something that scaled depending on the size of the window
  83. # [02:55] <torchie> oh
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  85. # [02:57] <Philip`> It can't be done entirely automatically, because the browser can't redraw the bitmap at a higher resolution, so you have to manually script it
  86. # [02:57] <annodomini> If you want something that scales with the window, you might want to look into SVG. Otherwise, you're going to have to listen for resize events, and set the width and heigh in pixels to the size of the window.
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  89. # [03:02] <torchie> is <canvas> raster? can you render an svg graphic onto it?
  90. # [03:06] <annodomini> Canvas is a raster drawing surface with various raster and vector drawing operations for drawing to it.
  91. # [03:06] <Philip`> Some browsers let you put SVG in <img> and pass that to drawImage
  92. # [03:08] <annodomini> What I was referring to was simply using SVG, either inline in the HTML (currently only works in XHTML) or in an <object> or <img> tag.
  93. # [03:09] <annodomini> See http://emacsformacosx.com/ for a good example of scalable SVG being used to fit the whole window.
  94. # [03:09] <othermaciej> annodomini: that page is cool!
  95. # [03:09] <othermaciej> I mean, maybe I am just easily impressed but I dig the scaling
  96. # [03:10] <annodomini> Yeah, the scaling impressed me.
  97. # [03:11] <torchie> hmm
  98. # [03:11] <torchie> only some browsers, huh
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  101. # [03:12] <annodomini> Canvas and SVG are not currently supported in IE.
  102. # [03:12] <torchie> doesn't osx already come with emacs
  103. # [03:12] <annodomini> It does, but just a command line version; this is a build of the cocoa version.
  104. # [03:13] <torchie> wouldn't that count as 'extras' and 'nonsense'
  105. # [03:13] <annodomini> I'm not sure I follow.
  106. # [03:13] <torchie> I thought emacs was primarily command line
  107. # [03:14] <annodomini> It's useful to be able to select text with the mouse, use more varied fonts, and get better keybinding by not running within Terminal.app
  108. # [03:15] <annodomini> Emacs has lots of frontends; a terminal based one, X based ones, Cocoa, Windows, etc.
  109. # [03:15] <torchie> i see
  110. # [03:16] <torchie> I'll check this out then; I've been using textwrangler lately
  111. # [03:16] <annodomini> Also, on the "only some browsers" point, there are projects for adding canvas & svg support to browsers that don't have them.
  112. # [03:17] <annodomini> There's excanvas http://excanvas.sourceforge.net/ which adds canvas support to IE by using VML, IE's proprietary vector language.
  113. # [03:17] <annodomini> And there's svgweb http://code.google.com/p/svgweb/ for adding SVG support to any browser that doesn't have it, by using Flash to render SVG.
  114. # [03:18] <annodomini> Both are going to have a few rough edges, but can be used for compatibility in a pinch.
  115. # [03:18] <torchie> I'm wondering how things will look for a canvas on larger and smaller screens
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  128. # [04:33] <TabAtkins> annodomini: I'll be using excanvas for a project I'm working on. It performs great for what I need (generating graphs).
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  198. # [10:10] <aho> why isn't there a clear() function in the canvas specs? clearRect(x,y,w,h) looks awfully longwinded... canvas.width = canvas.width is easier, but that kind of code is very weird, because everyone who didn't take a very close look at the specs will assume that this line doesn't do anything (but it clears the canvas)
  199. # [10:11] <aho> and why the f- aren't the push and pop functions called... y'know... push() and pop()?
  200. # [10:11] <aho> void save(); // push state on state stack
  201. # [10:11] <aho> void restore(); // pop state stack and restore state
  202. # [10:11] <aho> i mean... seriously... :>
  203. # [10:12] <aho> it *IS* a stack
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  205. # [10:26] <Hixie> aho: ask whoever first invented the api at apple :-)
  206. # [10:29] <aho> i also think it would be nice if there would be some flag/hint for indicating that you're going to overdraw everything. the implementation won't have to use some buffer then (eg fbo in opengl) which would be a tad faster
  207. # [10:29] <aho> even more so if no fbos are available
  208. # [10:30] <aho> eg with the gles stuff on this embedded thingy here i don't even have fbos available :f
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  210. # [10:31] <aho> so, the canvas specs are already set in stone?
  211. # [10:41] <Hixie> aho: what exists now is pretty stable, but i'm sure we'll add things over time
  212. # [10:41] <Hixie> i doubt we'll be changing what is there already though
  213. # [10:41] <Hixie> there are pages that depend on it already
  214. # [10:42] <aho> well, push and pop can be added.... save and restore can be kept (deprecated)
  215. # [10:43] * svtech is now known as archtech
  216. # [10:43] <Hixie> we can never remove them, so just having two ways of doing the same thing just adds bloat for no good reason
  217. # [10:44] <aho> save/restore suggests a single state
  218. # [10:44] <aho> save/restore is different from other similar apis
  219. # [10:44] <aho> how does webgl call it? :>
  220. # [10:44] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@p4082-ipbf3208hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  221. # [10:45] <aho> is the draft spec finally available (it was supposed to be released to the public in october)
  222. # [10:45] <aho> ?
  223. # [10:47] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  224. # [10:49] <aho> and well... those save/restore comments basically read like "yea this should have been called push... and this one over there is actually pop" :>
  225. # [11:02] <Hixie> aho: html5 has been released to the public since 2003
  226. # [11:02] <Hixie> aho: http://whatwg.org/html5
  227. # [11:03] <aho> webgl draft spec
  228. # [11:03] <aho> .)
  229. # [11:03] <Hixie> aah
  230. # [11:03] <Hixie> dunno about webgl
  231. # [11:03] <Hixie> i'm waiting myself
  232. # [11:04] <aho> heh
  233. # [11:07] <aho> i'll probably need a new graphics card to try it
  234. # [11:07] <Philip`> You'll probably need one that supports OpenGL 2.0
  235. # [11:07] <aho> theoretically this one should be able to do it... but... well... it's ati. the ff nightly stuff only works in sw mode
  236. # [11:09] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-51.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  237. # [11:10] <aho> (fwiw it claims to support 2.1) :f
  238. # [11:10] * Joins: aaron (n=drunknba@cpe-76-173-195-145.socal.res.rr.com)
  239. # [11:16] <aho> ye, ezquake says gl_version 2.1.xxxx release
  240. # [11:16] <aho> should be good enough... in theory
  241. # [11:19] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe FF relies on other extensions that ATI doesn't implement?
  242. # [11:19] <Philip`> Seems like a bug if it doesn't work on a reasonably modern graphics card like that
  243. # [11:23] <aho> well, ati means bad drivers... they also stopped supporting it a few months after the release
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  248. # [11:43] <Dashiva> I wonder what creates this overwhelming hatred for the design principles in some people
  249. # [11:46] <aho> ?:)
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  253. # [12:05] <othermaciej> aho: in the context of graphics, it's pretty normal to speak of saving and restoring graphics contexts, rather than pushing and popping
  254. # [12:06] <othermaciej> (even though the saving and restoring follows a nested, stack-like model)
  255. # [12:07] <ako> push and pop are usually called push and pop, because things are pushed onto a stack or popped from one
  256. # [12:07] <ako> in opengl it's also push and pop
  257. # [12:08] <ako> so... webgl will most likely call these things also push and pop
  258. # [12:08] <othermaciej> in CoreCraphics, it's called CGContextSaveGState and CGContextRestoreGState
  259. # [12:08] <ako> to me it looks like they added the ability to save the transformation... and later on decided it might be nicer if it were a stack instead
  260. # [12:08] <othermaciej> <canvas> was originally modeled on the Mac OS X CoreGraphics API
  261. # [12:09] <ako> what's coregraphics? some apple thing?
  262. # [12:09] <ako> ye, well... that doesnt count then
  263. # [12:09] <ako> :)
  264. # [12:09] <othermaciej> it's the 2D graphics API of Mac OS X
  265. # [12:09] <jgraham> "let queue be a stack of elements" -- that's kind of confusing
  266. # [12:09] <jgraham> (Nothing to do with canvas I should note)
  267. # [12:10] <othermaciej> well, since <canvas> was originally invented by a team at Apple in the browser that ships with the Mac, it made sense at the time
  268. # [12:10] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com)
  269. # [12:10] <othermaciej> personally I would have added a noun to the verb, since the naked verbs don't make it clear what is being saved and restored (or pushed and popped)
  270. # [12:10] <othermaciej> in that sense CG's SaveGState is more clear
  271. # [12:12] <Dashiva> jgraham: Java's Deque class is a better stack than the Stack class :)
  272. # [12:12] * Quits: aho (n=nya@e179221005.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  273. # [12:12] <Dashiva> Well, ArrayDeque to be specific
  274. # [12:12] <zcorpan> hello everyone
  275. # [12:12] <jgraham> zcorpan: hello
  276. # [12:13] <othermaciej> for what it's worth, CanvasRenderingContext3D doesn't seem to have eihter push/pop or save/restore
  277. # [12:13] <othermaciej> at least not the current copy in WebKit
  278. # [12:16] <ako> there is no push pop stuff in gles 1.x or 2.0
  279. # [12:16] <ako> hum
  280. # [12:16] <othermaciej> hmm, I only just noticed that CanvasRenderingContext2D has readonly attribute HTMLCanvasElement canvas
  281. # [12:17] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@212-181-96-82.customer.telia.com)
  282. # [12:17] <othermaciej> amusingly this is retained in the breakout spec verbatim
  283. # [12:18] <Philip`> ako: I think the idea is it's something the application can handle itself, and the GL library should be as small as possible and avoid that stuff
  284. # [12:18] <Philip`> (in GLES, that is)
  285. # [12:18] <othermaciej> WebGL is roughly modeled on GLES 2.0
  286. # [12:19] <ako> Many other areas of functionality have been removed in version 1.0 to produce a lightweight interface: for example, quad and polygon primitive rendering[...], push and pop state attributes, [...].
  287. # [12:19] <ako> that's what wikipedia says .)
  288. # [12:19] <Philip`> "Client and server attribute stacks are not supported by the profiles; consequently, the commands PushAttrib, PopAttrib, PushClientAttrib, and PopClientAttrib are not supported."
  289. # [12:20] <Philip`> That's what the spec says
  290. # [12:20] <ako> but there are also things like push/popmatrix in opengl
  291. # [12:22] <Dashiva> Yeah, the matrix stacks are kinda important
  292. # [12:22] <ako> ah... there is push/popmatrix in gles 1.0
  293. # [12:23] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Really, do you need to spend emails that lead to names like the "script data escaped end tag open state"?
  294. # [12:23] <ako> guess that makes sense... all that fixed pipeline stuff was stripped away in gles2.0
  295. # [12:23] <zcorpan> gsnedders: yes
  296. # [12:24] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Damn you.
  297. # [12:24] * gsnedders is currently implementing that one
  298. # [12:25] <zcorpan> so when's WHATWG LC?
  299. # [12:25] * Joins: gratz|home (n=gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  300. # [12:25] <Hixie> probably monday
  301. # [12:25] * ako is now known as aho
  302. # [12:25] <gsnedders> As far as I can tell, when Hixie gets around to announcing it
  303. # [12:25] <Hixie> or tuesday
  304. # [12:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can you fix the parser bugs I reported? Pretty please?
  305. # [12:25] <zcorpan> cool
  306. # [12:25] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah, gonna do that in the next hour or so. responding to mail about websockets first.
  307. # [12:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: good work
  308. # [12:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: thx, I guess I'll get the impl done of everything when I get back to Linköping, but likely tomorrow, after sleeping
  309. # [12:27] * gsnedders doesn't think allowing himself to be bullied into dancing for four hours last night was a good idea
  310. # [12:29] <Hixie> zcorpan: i'm more impressed by my timeline prediction being accurate
  311. # [12:29] <aho> generally the canvas spec stuff is pretty well done though. eg it does specifiy the clear color (transparent black). java (java2d that is) for example didn't get this right
  312. # [12:31] * gsnedders wonders why jgraham was looking at him
  313. # [12:32] <Hixie> oh hey, good news. according to the htmlwg charter (the "realistic" timetable, vs the one i predicted), we'll be at PR in Q2 next year!
  314. # [12:32] <Hixie> and we've been at CR for a years now
  315. # [12:32] <Philip`> aho: If there's anything that it doesn't specify pretty well, please file bugs :-)
  316. # [12:32] <Hixie> (LC was summer last year!)
  317. # [12:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe you just worked your ass off to meet the prediction
  318. # [12:32] <Hixie> i did
  319. # [12:33] <Hixie> for 6 years :-P
  320. # [12:33] <Philip`> You can't stop now :-p
  321. # [12:33] * Joins: Rik`_ (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  322. # [12:33] <aho> Philip`, well... save/restore sucks :> (but since it's js it isn't much of a deal... one can just make push/pop point at those functions)
  323. # [12:33] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  324. # [12:33] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  325. # [12:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah but you've been on a spree this year :)
  326. # [12:34] <Philip`> aho: Well, I meant "well" more in the sense of "precisely", rather than "good design" :-)
  327. # [12:34] <Hixie> zcorpan: no more than previously, i don't think. It's just been more feedback focussed this year rather than new-feature focussed
  328. # [12:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok
  329. # [12:36] <aho> Philip`, i'm only interested in a very small subset... but these things do look just fine
  330. # [12:36] <aho> (transformations, images, solid fill, and fillrect - that's it)
  331. # [12:38] <aho> it's the minimum one needs for games... and it's the maximum i'm willing to implement ;)
  332. # [12:39] * Philip` wonders what aho is implementing it for
  333. # [12:39] <aho> some small embedded thingy
  334. # [12:40] <aho> v8 is far smaller than python and about 10 times faster... it also starts up far quicker
  335. # [12:40] <Philip`> Ah
  336. # [12:41] <aho> ye, it's also far quicker than bloody as2 (got a rather bugged implementation there) :f
  337. # [12:42] <aho> the canvas subset is so interesting because you can easily test it anywhere
  338. # [12:42] <aho> that's the big idea... basically
  339. # [12:42] <aho> well, and the overhead is rather small
  340. # [12:44] <aho> webgl would have been also great, but unfortunately the device only supports gles 1.1
  341. # [12:45] * jgraham notes that gsnedders is between him and the windows so he was likely not looking at gsnedders at all
  342. # [12:45] * gsnedders was guessing that might be the case, but it's true that it's really not interesting what you can see through the window
  343. # [12:55] * gsnedders is finally close to the end of all the script states
  344. # [12:55] * gsnedders glares at zcorpan
  345. # [12:56] <Hixie> gsnedders: btw in the future if you want me to prioritise a bug, mark it critical, so it goes red in the bug list
  346. # [12:57] <Hixie> is http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8019 the one you want me to deal with?
  347. # [12:57] <gsnedders> 8029 most urgently
  348. # [12:58] <gsnedders> Then 8019 just so I can claim the tests/impl actually match the spec
  349. # [12:58] <zcorpan> does someone know what the correct -o-link syntax is?
  350. # [13:01] <Philip`> zcorpan: Probably like http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/160
  351. # [13:01] <Hixie> gsnedders: done 8029
  352. # [13:01] <gsnedders> Hixie: Buses have arrived
  353. # [13:01] <Hixie> later
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  360. # [13:28] * Philip` is made happier
  361. # [13:28] <Philip`> though I suppose now I have to read and check the new version :-(
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  369. # [13:58] <Philip`> The "set of space-separated tokens" definition seems somewhat pointless, since it's effectively saying a set of space-separated tokens is any string with zero or more characters
  370. # [13:58] <Philip`> so it's just a synonym of "string"
  371. # [13:59] <Philip`> Oh, that's not true, because " " isn't a set of space-separated tokens, though it's valid when you have a string containing a set of space-separated tokens
  372. # [14:00] <Philip`> but since any set of etc is a string, and certainly contains a set of etc, then presumably the set of etc may have leading and trailing spaces
  373. # [14:00] <Philip`> so it's just a convoluted synonym of "string"
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  413. # [18:24] <gsnedders> s/Buses have arrived/I'll look later, as the buses have arrived/
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  474. # [23:45] <deadowl> Is there a continuity tag proposal yet?
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  476. # [23:50] * Joins: Rimdeker (i=Rimdeker@84.60.245.166)
  477. # [23:50] <deadowl> Hi Rimdeker
  478. # [23:50] <Rimdeker> Hi deadbowl
  479. # [23:50] <Rimdeker> lol
  480. # [23:50] <Rimdeker> How are you? Long time no see.
  481. # [23:50] <deadowl> I'm okay
  482. # [23:51] <Rimdeker> What did you do with your share of THE money, you know what I'm talking about?
  483. # [23:51] <deadowl> I want to know whether there's going to be a continuity tag in HTML 5.
  484. # [23:51] <deadowl> I spent it on a futon because my bed imploded.
  485. # [23:51] <Rimdeker> ...that's gotta be one damn expensive futon
  486. # [23:52] <deadowl> well, the frame is made out of the bones of notable mathematicians throughout history.
  487. # [23:52] <deadowl> so that was kind of expensive to make happen.
  488. # [23:53] <Rimdeker> Disturbing yet interesting.
  489. # [23:53] <deadowl> Do you know what I'm talking about by continuity tag?<thereismore>...</thereismore>
  490. # [23:53] <Rimdeker> I'll be honest with you, I started learning HTML , CSS and PHP about a week ago
  491. # [23:53] <Rimdeker> I know nothign
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  493. # [23:54] <deadowl> I learned html 10 years ago, css like 8 years ago, and php last year.
  494. # [23:54] <Rimdeker> Somehow you make it sound like a painful expierience
  495. # [23:55] <Rimdeker> http://rimdeker.org is technically my first ever website, really do not be fooled by the awesome looks lol, I totally suck in webcoding
  496. # [23:55] <deadowl> oh, it's only painful if you try to maintain an expanding website and don't know a serverside programming language.
  497. # [23:56] <deadowl> of course when I was 12 and learning HTML, I didn't have a clue what a serverside programming language was.
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  499. # [23:57] <deadowl> and xhtml/dhtml sounded intimidating at that point in my life.
  500. # [23:57] <deadowl> my mind is more spongey these days somehow
  501. # [23:57] <Rimdeker> ...basically you expanded and maintained websites with html only for almost a decade?
  502. # [23:57] * gsnedders wonders how old he was when he learnt HTML now…
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  504. # [23:58] <deadowl> Rimdeker: no, I used frames and didn't make complex websites.
  505. # [23:59] <deadowl> It's like... okay, a FAQ site.
  506. # [23:59] * gsnedders guesses he started playing around with HTML a bit when he was 8 or 9
  507. # [23:59] <deadowl> I wish I had a computer when I was 8 or 9.
  508. # Session Close: Sun Oct 25 00:00:00 2009

The end :)