/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 31 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:16] <Philip`> It's easy to encode the HTML5 parser as a state machine
  8. # [00:16] <Philip`> Start with an initial, then for every HTML document add a transition labelled with that document as a string, leading to a node which is associated with the appropriate DOM
  9. # [00:16] <Philip`> s/initial/initial state/
  10. # [00:22] <Dashiva> Actually
  11. # [00:22] <Dashiva> By what metric are we judging?
  12. # [00:22] <Dashiva> Because I don't think that parser would fit on my hard drive
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  38. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: in your description of the Web development model, I don't understand what the distinction is between event-based and stream-based
  39. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> wondering what is an example of something that's stream-based that's not also event-based
  40. # [02:18] <Hixie> TCP
  41. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> ah
  42. # [02:18] <Hixie> event-based may be the wrong terminology
  43. # [02:19] <Hixie> maybe poll vs push is more the right comparison?
  44. # [02:19] <Hixie> browsers use an event loop, so scripts get notified of things
  45. # [02:19] <Hixie> socket-based programming usually boils down to a select() loop somewhere
  46. # [02:20] <Hixie> i.e. the program waits for data to be ready
  47. # [02:20] <Hixie> now, we could just fire an event each time a packet comes in, i guess
  48. # [02:21] <Hixie> but that doesn't really fit the way the platform usually works
  49. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> yeah, let's do that
  50. # [02:22] <Hixie> it also makes it harder to handle binary data later when we introduce it
  51. # [02:22] <Dashiva> Let's fire an event every cycle, even if there isn't a packet
  52. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: hey yeah, about that, it would seem like a good idea to have that on the agenda for joint f2f discussion with TC 39 folks at TPAC
  53. # [02:26] <Hixie> a higher priority would be to get them to stop introducing new modes
  54. # [02:26] <Hixie> but i'm not holding out much hope there either :-(
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  56. # [02:31] <othermaciej> I need to write up some sort of rough proposal for binary data
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  58. # [02:31] <othermaciej> also for how to allow WebKit/Opera-style objects that masquerade as undefined
  59. # [02:33] <Dashiva> Are there any plans (solid or not) for 3D SVG?
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  61. # [02:33] <MikeSmith> othermaciej, Hixie: I wondering if we should open a bugzilla bug for tracking Alexey's entities-in-XHTML issue
  62. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: there was a related draft of some kind a while back
  63. # [02:34] <othermaciej> it should go in bugzilla, yes
  64. # [02:34] * MikeSmith goes too look
  65. # [02:34] <othermaciej> I can suggest that to him
  66. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> OK
  67. # [02:34] <Hixie> MikeSmith: fine by me, i am just hoping we can get the people who are going to complain about this to complain before i make the change
  68. # [02:35] <Hixie> because i'm tired of people saying that we don't have discussion first
  69. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> complain early, complain often
  70. # [02:36] <Dashiva> I can imagine a complaint that you're trying to sidetrack complaints of acting unilaterally
  71. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> them song: Willie Mabon's "I Don't Know" .. "What should I say to make you mad this time?"
  72. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> *theme
  73. # [02:38] <Dashiva> Oh Mikey
  74. # [02:40] <Dashiva> Do you know why google translate would translate wtf into 博?
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  76. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: no clue
  77. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> weird
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  79. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: at least if you put a question mark it gets it right
  80. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> 一体何だ
  81. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> JoePeck: the Event Listeners pane is mighty cool
  82. # [03:10] <JoePeck> MikeSmith: yah, debugging event listeners should plague me a lot less now =)
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  125. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: for entities in XML, the Gecko way can be implemented with any compliant XML parser without having to profile off-the-shelf parser software
  126. # [10:43] <Philip`> Dashiva: 3D SVG sounds like X3D
  127. # [10:44] <hsivonen> the entity thing is going to be "fun"
  128. # [10:45] <hsivonen> there will be a faction that'll complain that the WHATWG tries to kill XML by insisting on a pure XML parser (no entitites)
  129. # [10:46] <hsivonen> and there will be another faction that'll complain about the WHATWG changing/profiling XML
  130. # [10:47] <hsivonen> the real solution is that xml-core defines XML5 with HTML5-like tokenization including all the MathML 3 entitities hard-wired
  131. # [10:47] <hsivonen> the other real solution is to use text/html
  132. # [10:50] <hsivonen> for avoidance of ambiguity, above "by insisting" meant the WHATWG doing the insisting to use a pure XML parser
  133. # [10:55] <Hixie> so should innerHTML support the entities in XML?
  134. # [10:56] <Hixie> should it depend on whether there's a DOCTYPE present?
  135. # [10:56] <Hixie> what FPIs should be recognised?
  136. # [10:56] <Hixie> etc.
  137. # [10:56] <Hixie> however you cut it, it's a profile
  138. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: my general feeling is that the XML code path is a legacy thing. the XML Web that never came. I'd rather not spend time polishing it by adding entitities to innerHTML
  139. # [11:00] <Hixie> then you'd better remove it from firefox :-)
  140. # [11:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: however, you can add entity support withou profiling XML
  141. # [11:01] <Hixie> because the webkit guys are saying they need it for compat with firefox
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  143. # [11:01] <Hixie> how?
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  145. # [11:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: whoa! does Gecko support entities in innerHTML?
  146. # [11:01] <Hixie> it's what i'm told
  147. # [11:01] <hsivonen> eww
  148. # [11:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: by feeding a doctypeless XML document to the XML processor and expanding entities by intercepting the undeclared entity non-errors on the application layer
  149. # [11:03] <Hixie> i'd call that a profile, but ok
  150. # [11:03] <hsivonen> skippedEntity in SAX
  151. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: the skippedEntity callback flows directly from the XML spec
  152. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's totally spec-based
  153. # [11:03] <Hixie> sure but requiring that something be done based on it is a different matter
  154. # [11:03] <Hixie> i'm not against it
  155. # [11:03] <Hixie> i should clarify
  156. # [11:03] <Hixie> i'm quite happy to profile other specs
  157. # [11:04] <Hixie> i'm just expecting complaints
  158. # [11:04] <hsivonen> I've been agains making skippedEntity processing part of a spec for years
  159. # [11:04] <hsivonen> but now it seems it's a lesser evil than profiling XML itself
  160. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Hixie:like I said above, there will be at least two mutually-unpleasable factions
  161. # [11:05] <Hixie> as usual
  162. # [11:05] <hsivonen> I guess I should read the code to see what Gecko does for entities in innerHTML
  163. # [11:06] <hsivonen> I'm very surprised at the allegation that they'd get expanded
  164. # [11:06] <jgraham> to be fair as an author you would expect entities to work in innerHTML
  165. # [11:06] <jgraham> It would be highly surprising if they didn't
  166. # [11:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: only if you don't know the XML spec well
  167. # [11:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: How many authors know the XML spec well?
  168. # [11:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: are you suggesting there are people using XML without knowing what they've gotten themselves into?
  169. # [11:08] <jgraham> Heh
  170. # [11:08] <jgraham> But yeah, the right solution is to not use XML on the web
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  173. # [11:11] <Philip`> Does innerHTML let you do stuff like <div xmlns:foo="..."></div> ... div.innerHTML = "<foo:bar/">?
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  176. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: IIRC, yes
  177. # [11:26] * Parts: mikekelly (i=mikek@64.32.20.15)
  178. # [11:30] <Philip`> If it does context-dependent parsing in that case, so it's mostly equivalent to writing the text into the original markup, I'd expect it to support entities in the same way
  179. # [11:30] <Philip`> (as an author)
  180. # [11:31] <hsivonen> I guess once you have a synthetic root element having a synthetic doctype isn't far away
  181. # [11:32] <hsivonen> aside: treating SVG and MahtML in text/html as precedent for X3D in text/html misses the point majorly
  182. # [11:32] <hsivonen> the above-DOM part of SVG and MathML existed already
  183. # [11:32] <hsivonen> not so for X3D
  184. # [11:42] <Philip`> It seems the first job would be to make the above-DOM part exist in browsers, and just use it in XHTML for now
  185. # [11:43] <Philip`> which seems to be what the X3D people are currently thinking about
  186. # [11:43] <Philip`> and that's probably enough to keep them busy for a few years
  187. # [11:44] <hsivonen> well, first one should make a use-case-based case for having a retained-mode 3D engine with a standard model serialization as part of the browser
  188. # [11:44] <hsivonen> as opposed to shipping your engine of choce as JS to the browser and the browser having WebGL
  189. # [11:44] <hsivonen> (totally violates the Rule of Least Power, of course)
  190. # [11:45] <hsivonen> s/choce/choice/
  191. # [11:45] <Philip`> Doing it in JS doesn't remove any of the questions about how the markup should work and how it should be integrated into the document - that just seems like an implementation detail
  192. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: why does it need to be in the markup instead of being a separate HTTP resource retrieved via XHR?
  193. # [11:46] <hsivonen> if the engine is in JS, you've already lost declarativity
  194. # [11:48] <Philip`> hsivonen: I guess for the same reasons SVG needs to be in the markup
  195. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: does the analogy work with 3D? is 3D expected to integrate into the CSS formatter canvas on as low a level as SVG?
  196. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: also, the case for SVG itself is a bit shaky
  197. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: more like people want it rather than here's a good reason to want it
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  201. # [11:55] * gsnedders wonders whether to work on DOM Core or html5lib today
  202. # [11:55] <gsnedders> (I'll work on the other tomorrow)
  203. # [12:09] * gsnedders thinks he's finished updating the html5lib tokenizer now
  204. # [12:10] <hsivonen> gsnedders: to new script text stuff?
  205. # [12:10] <gsnedders> yeah
  206. # [12:10] <hsivonen> cool
  207. # [12:10] <hsivonen> are test cases up-to-date, too?
  208. # [12:10] <gsnedders> No
  209. # [12:10] <hsivonen> not so cool
  210. # [12:10] <gsnedders> Indeed
  211. # [12:11] <gsnedders> Several of the contentModelFlags tests fail, unsurprisingly :P
  212. # [12:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: It sounds you are already working on hml5lib Given the implied exclusivity in your question I think we can leave the job of answering to lady logic
  213. # [12:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, I hadn't started when I asked that question
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  215. # [12:14] <Mathias__> Sup guys
  216. # [12:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: lady logic?
  217. # [12:15] <Mathias__> I was wondering why HTML5 doesn't introduce <link rel="script"> or something similar
  218. # [12:15] <Mathias__> A solution that doesn't require an unnecessary closing tag, like <script src="foo"> does at the moment
  219. # [12:15] <hsivonen> Mathias__: because <script src> already works
  220. # [12:17] <Mathias__> Yeah, but it requires a closing tag, even if it's just used to link to an external file
  221. # [12:17] <Mathias__> In which case the parser ignores anything in between the starting and closing tags anyway
  222. # [12:18] <hsivonen> Mathias__: it's backwards-compatible
  223. # [12:18] <gsnedders> Mathias__: $yourOtherSyntax doesn't work today. <script src> already does. What is gained by having a new syntax that doesn't already work?
  224. # [12:19] <Mathias__> hsivonen, gsnedders: It would be perfectly possible to make something like <link rel="script"> backwards compatible through JavaScript
  225. # [12:19] <gsnedders> Maurice: Requiring </script> is far from the ugliest thing in HTML.
  226. # [12:21] <Mathias__> The advantage would be not having to use </script> when you're just linking to another file anyway. Cleaner code. Linking JavaScript files would be more similar to linking stylesheets
  227. # [12:21] <gsnedders> Mathias__: <script> is exectued as soon as it is added to the document, that wouldn't be.
  228. # [12:21] <Philip`> Mathias__: "backwards compatible through script" - doesn't that defeat the point of having a cleaner syntax for including scripts? :-)
  229. # [12:21] <gsnedders> Mathias__: Which is internally inconsistent within HTML. (If you made it do consistent in the spec, you couldn't make it work through JS.)
  230. # [12:21] <Philip`> Now you've got to include the script, *and* the script that loads the script
  231. # [12:22] <hsivonen> Mathias__: <link rel="script" href=""> is 27 characters. <script src=""></script> is 24 characters.
  232. # [12:22] <Mathias__> The same thing can be said about any new HTML5 feature
  233. # [12:22] <Mathias__> hsivonen, I'm not saying it's shorter, I'm saying it would make more sense when compared to how stylesheets are inserted
  234. # [12:23] <hsivonen> Mathias__: see topic
  235. # [12:23] <Mathias__> hsivonen: You got me there :(
  236. # [12:23] <krijnh> \o/
  237. # [12:24] <Mathias__> CSS inline: <style></style>
  238. # [12:24] <Philip`> Mathias__: Many new HTML5 features can't be properly implemented with scripts, since they're not just new syntax for old features, so you can't say the same about all of them
  239. # [12:24] <Mathias__> Linking to CSS: <link rel="stylesheet" src="">
  240. # [12:25] <Mathias__> JS inline: <script></script>
  241. # [12:25] <Mathias__> Linking to JS: <script src=""></script>
  242. # [12:25] <Philip`> Mathias__: (You mean href in link)
  243. # [12:25] <Mathias__> Philip`: Whoops, I stand corrected :)
  244. # [12:26] <Philip`> Mathias__: The attribute names aren't that consistent :-)
  245. # [12:26] <Mathias__> But you get my point, right? It just seems like an anomaly to me
  246. # [12:26] <Mathias__> Philip`: My point exactly
  247. # [12:26] <gsnedders> It's no less an anomaly than half the other things in HTML
  248. # [12:26] <Philip`> That doesn't make it not an anomaly
  249. # [12:26] <Philip`> Just probably not one that's worth fixing
  250. # [12:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm not saying it isn't one.
  251. # [12:26] <Mathias__> What Philip` said
  252. # [12:27] <Mathias__> gsnedders: You're saying this shouldn't be an issue because there are bigger / more important “problems”
  253. # [12:27] <hsivonen> Mathias__: compatibility trumps consistency
  254. # [12:27] <gsnedders> HTML is completely inconsistent, and the cost of fixing all of them would be prohibitively high. There just isn't that much gained by fixing them all, especially more minor ones such as this.
  255. # [12:28] <krijnh> XHTML2 fixes all of this Mathias__
  256. # [12:30] * jgraham still gets the </script> thing wong sometimes
  257. # [12:30] <jgraham> *wrong
  258. # [12:30] <jgraham> But i still isn't worth fixing
  259. # [12:30] <jgraham> it
  260. # [12:30] <gsnedders> Mathias__: If you came up with a version of HTML that fixed all the inconsistencies it would bear little resemblance to HTML 4.01. The cost of creating a new language is very high. HTML is a mess due to having things hacked on left, right, and centre by most vendors, but nothing short of a total redesign of the language will fix that.
  261. # [12:30] <jgraham> Gah
  262. # [12:31] <Philip`> At least HTML is quite consistently inconsistent
  263. # [12:31] <Philip`> If you cleaned up part of it then it's be inconsistently inconsistent
  264. # [12:31] <gsnedders> Mathias__: As XHTML proved, a fairly minor redesign of the language, only touching the syntax, just didn't get the uptake. HTML, and the whole mess of compatibility it brings with it, just isn't going to go away.
  265. # [12:33] <Mathias__> I don't understand… Even the simplest new features of HTML5 require JS to make them work in older browsers
  266. # [12:33] <Mathias__> Why would it be so bad to introduce one more new thing in HTML5 which could be backwards compatible in the very same way?
  267. # [12:34] <gsnedders> Mathias__: What new features are recreations of existing features?
  268. # [12:34] <Philip`> gsnedders: <meta charset>
  269. # [12:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: That don't already work in browsers. :)
  270. # [12:35] <Philip`> It don't?
  271. # [12:35] <Philip`> Did you mean the opposite?
  272. # [12:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: You know what I mean, dammit.
  273. # [12:36] <Mathias__> gsnedders: <header> is a recreation of <div id="header">. The same goes for other HTML5 elements
  274. # [12:36] <krijnh> (It is for <div class="header">, I hope)
  275. # [12:36] <Mathias__> krijnh: Oh shut it! You get my point :p
  276. # [12:36] <gsnedders> What new features are there in HTML 5 that are recreations of existing features that don't work in browsers today?
  277. # [12:37] <gsnedders> Mathias__: It's not, at all. One has semantic meaning and an effect on semantics, the other does not.
  278. # [12:37] <Philip`> <header> doesn't work in most browsers today
  279. # [12:37] <jgraham> Mathias__: Not really. At least for sectioning elements they are really a new concept
  280. # [12:37] <Philip`> if by "work" you mean "is stylable"
  281. # [12:37] <jgraham> Philip`: depends wht you mean by "most"
  282. # [12:38] <krijnh> gsnedders: Microdata? :]
  283. # [12:38] <Philip`> jgraham: Weighted by number of users
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  286. # [12:40] <Mathias__> gsnedders: Ok, so it's not a recreation of existing features. My point exactly. This completely new feature can "work" in every single browser by using JavaScript
  287. # [12:41] <Mathias__> Why would it be so bad to introduce another new thing, that can be made backwards compatible in the same way?
  288. # [12:42] <Philip`> Mathias__: I don't think it could be implemented in JS in a way that is compatible with the behaviour it should have when implemented natively
  289. # [12:42] <gsnedders> If you want it to work the same as <script src>, how do you get: <link rel=script href=foo.js><script>alert(foo)</script> (where foo.js contains "var foo = 1") to work?
  290. # [12:42] * gsnedders doesn't either
  291. # [12:42] <Philip`> e.g. document.write probably wouldn't work
  292. # [12:44] <Mathias__> Hmm, good point, I hadn't thought of that
  293. # [12:44] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  294. # [12:45] <Mathias__> Don't know if that's possible at all, or not
  295. # [12:45] <krijnh> I don't understand why you would even try all this mess
  296. # [12:45] <krijnh> Just so that we can ditch </script> in about 20 years
  297. # [12:48] <krijnh> So, next issue? :)
  298. # [12:48] * Philip` really doesn't want to be using HTML in 20 years from now
  299. # [12:48] <gsnedders> The adoption agency algorithm is impossible to understand.
  300. # [12:49] <Philip`> gsnedders: At least you're using a language where you can transcribe the algorithm into code
  301. # [12:49] <Philip`> and you don't have to reverse-engineer it into a side-effect-free functional form :-p
  302. # [12:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: n00b :P
  303. # [12:53] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/svn/tokeniser/treeconstructor_interp.ml (the "let rec adoptionAgency name state =" bit)
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  315. # [14:18] <krijnh> gsnedders: (when) will your outliner be integrated in the w3.org checker?
  316. # [14:18] <krijnh> Or in validator.nu
  317. # [14:27] <gsnedders> krijnh: I assume not, as Python is rather hard to integrate into Perl/Java :)
  318. # [14:29] <Dashiva> jpython?
  319. # [14:29] <Dashiva> Or jython or whatnot
  320. # [14:29] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I rely upon specific C extensions for CPython
  321. # [14:30] <krijnh> Then port it :)
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  324. # [14:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: lxml?
  325. # [15:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: ya
  326. # [15:08] <Dashiva> Aren't there native python parsers available, though?
  327. # [15:09] <jgraham> Dashiva: Nothing so good
  328. # [15:09] <jgraham> But gsnedders could probably swap it for ElementTree with some efort
  329. # [15:10] <jgraham> (no parent pointers is rather a drag)
  330. # [15:12] <Philip`> Seems easier just to rewrite the algorithm in Java
  331. # [15:13] <Philip`> and far less hassle than trying to integrate Jython into validator.nu
  332. # [15:19] <jgraham> Yes
  333. # [15:20] <hsivonen> is the algorithm stable no?
  334. # [15:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well it is in LC...
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  338. # [15:42] <ment> gsnedders: adoption agency is easy, if you rewrite it into one-pass forward form
  339. # [15:44] * jgraham would like to see an "easy" version of the AAA
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  341. # [15:52] <jgraham> http://james.html5.org/microdata/ microdata parser, halloween editon
  342. # [15:53] <jgraham> The RDF output seems o be somewhat broken
  343. # [15:53] <Dashiva> <type 'exceptions.AttributeError'>
  344. # [15:53] <jgraham> Amongst other things
  345. # [15:53] <erlehmann> ahaha oh wow
  346. # [15:54] <jgraham> (I have only tried the O'Reilly example from the spec, and that only enough to determine that it is m
  347. # [15:54] <Dashiva> 'Item' object has no attribute 'doc'
  348. # [15:54] <jgraham> s/m/n/
  349. # [15:54] <jgraham> ot quite right
  350. # [15:54] <jgraham> Dashiva: url?
  351. # [15:54] <Dashiva> I just pressed submit on that page
  352. # [15:54] <jgraham> Oh I didn't try that yet :)
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  356. # [16:10] <jgraham> Dashiva: It now does something if you press the button without changing anything
  357. # [16:11] <jgraham> It isn't the _right_ thing
  358. # [16:11] <jgraham> But it is something
  359. # [16:11] <Dashiva> Well, it did something earlier too
  360. # [16:11] <jgraham> OK something other than throw an error
  361. # [16:12] <Dashiva> At least the error was an obvious sign that the output was incorrect, rather than subtle bugs :P
  362. # [16:14] <jgraham> Good reason to get everyone else to tell me what all the subtle bugs are now so I don't have o find them all myself
  363. # [16:18] <ment> jgraham: http://codepad.org/F7SaXBiD that's the "easy" version of AAA algorithm (it does only two forward passes over the data)
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  365. # [16:24] * lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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  367. # [16:33] <gsnedders> Man, this flat is ridiculous in quite a few ways.
  368. # [16:40] <TabAtkins> Man, old JS is ridiculous in quite a few ways.
  369. # [16:41] <Philip`> New JS too
  370. # [16:41] <TabAtkins> I really can't believe that anyone, *ever*, thought it was a good idea to put elements with @name as variables in the global scope.
  371. # [16:42] * TabAtkins is helping a newb with coding style. She has obviously been trained by js tutorials from 1995.
  372. # [16:42] * gsnedders guesses it's more someone thought it was a good idea to put them on window and then they got into the global scope as a side-effect.
  373. # [16:42] <TabAtkins> Putting them on window is an equally bad idea.
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  377. # [16:57] <Philip`> TabAtkins: You can't believe people thought <a href="contact.htm" onmouseover="contactbutton.src='contact-in.gif'" onmouseout="contactbutton.src='contact.gif'"><img src="contact.gif" name="contactbutton"></a> was a good idea?
  378. # [16:57] <TabAtkins> No. No I cannot.
  379. # [16:57] <Philip`> and they ought to write onmouseover="document.getElementsByName('contactbutton')[0].src='contact-in.gif'" etc?
  380. # [16:58] <Philip`> As far as I can remember, changing images was pretty much the only thing you could do with JS when it was introduced
  381. # [16:59] <TabAtkins> They ought to write <a href="contact.htm" id=foo>Contact Us</a><style>#foo { background: url(contact.gif); } #foo:hover { background: url(contact-in.gif); }</style>
  382. # [16:59] * Quits: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186) ("Leaving.")
  383. # [17:00] <Dashiva> You're funny
  384. # [17:02] <TabAtkins> The funny thing is that mine seems *ridiculously* easier to me. And yet we have people asking for presentational HTML because CSS is too hard.
  385. # [17:02] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Need to add width:150; height:50; too
  386. # [17:03] <Philip`> (Obviously you wouldn't put "px" on it)
  387. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> Philip`: True. That can be avoided if I use content instead of background.
  388. # [17:03] <Dashiva> And content support was added in 1997?
  389. # [17:03] <Philip`> TabAtkins: That doesn't even work in many current browsers, never mind Netscape 2 :-p
  390. # [17:03] <Philip`> (or 3 or whatever it was)
  391. # [17:04] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Indeed, which is why I didn't use it in my example. ^_^
  392. # [17:04] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Nope. I just hate all the tutorials originating from 1997 that are still on the web, and high on the google charts.
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  394. # [17:04] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: It's the same with Java
  395. # [17:04] <Dashiva> "This issue you have is going to be fixed in Java 1.0"
  396. # [17:05] <Dashiva> First hit on google
  397. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> Anyway, just rewrote the newb's code to teach her proper style.
  398. # [17:07] <Philip`> Yeah, people should have to get a license before they're allowed to put tutorials on the web, with annual renewal
  399. # [17:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: how would you license the licensor?
  400. # [17:07] <Dashiva> Hixie would handle that
  401. # [17:07] <Dashiva> Duh
  402. # [17:07] <hsivonen> good point
  403. # [17:08] <TabAtkins> I approve of making Hixie our sole point of failure.
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  405. # [17:08] <Dashiva> sole point of success
  406. # [17:08] <Philip`> If you concentrating all points of failure into one, there's less chance of failure
  407. # [17:08] <Philip`> s/concentrating/concentrate/
  408. # [17:09] <Dashiva> If you only have one strong link, don't make a chain
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  412. # [17:25] <Dashiva> Random question, anyone know how I can make eclipse stop focusing the currently open file in the package explorer?
  413. # [17:27] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-nwuxqqrdrtgmkpsy) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  414. # [17:27] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
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  416. # [17:28] <Philip`> Dashiva: Doesn't seem to focus anything automatically for me
  417. # [17:28] <Philip`> unless I'm just looking in the wrong windows
  418. # [17:29] <jgraham> Philip`: since 'this' in an event handler attribute points to the element on which the attribute is locted you could make your example simpler without needing .getElementByWhatever
  419. # [17:29] <jgraham> like this.firstChild.src='whatever'
  420. # [17:31] <Dashiva> Philip`: I think it started happening in galileo, not present in ganymede
  421. # [17:31] <Philip`> jgraham: That sounds complicated, because it'd require you to view the document as a tree rather than as a series of tags
  422. # [17:33] * Joins: yatil (n=Adium@78.104.102.186)
  423. # [17:33] <jgraham> Philip`: A more reasonable objection would be that no-one understand how the "this" object works
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  426. # [17:35] * Philip` can't remember how long it took him to realise the DOM concept existed
  427. # [17:35] <jgraham> Anyway the truth seems to be that 50% of the web platform was designed assuming that we had to throw out all experience on how to write good code in order to make things easy whilst the other 50% was designed assuming that everyone has a perfect understanding of all the specs
  428. # [17:35] <jgraham> and never makes errors
  429. # [17:36] * gsnedders never does, and perfectly understands the this object
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  431. # [17:41] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  432. # [17:42] <Dashiva> jgraham: I feel there should be a clause on the latter part like "and therefore didn't feel the need to make the specs perfect"
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  444. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> Of course, the day before I leave for TPAC my car develops a mysterious problem.
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  450. # [18:46] <Philip`> Hmph, Google Code Search regexps don't support backrefs :-(
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  453. # [18:58] <rubys> <i> Configuring ruby-1.9.1-head using , this may take a while depending on your cpu(s)... </i>
  454. # [18:58] <rubys> Note the missing text prior to the comma
  455. # [18:58] <rubys> oops, wrong window :-)
  456. # [18:59] <Dashiva> Also, it's missing an s in rubys-1.9.1 :P
  457. # [19:00] <rubys> :-)
  458. # [19:00] * Parts: rubys1 (n=rubys@cpe-065-190-139-141.nc.res.rr.com)
  459. # [19:00] <Philip`> <i>? How unsemantic
  460. # [19:01] <rubys> Philip`: it is even worse: as near as I can tell, it isn't HTML
  461. # [19:01] <rubys> that is spit out to STDOUT by rvm
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  468. # [19:57] <Dashiva> Oh look, a totally unexpected response to alexey's email about entities
  469. # [20:04] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-065-190-139-141.nc.res.rr.com)
  470. # [20:14] <Mathias__> Evening guys
  471. # [20:14] <Mathias__> I have a, HTML5-related question
  472. # [20:14] <Mathias__> an*
  473. # [20:15] <Mathias__> Does <nav> require a heading of some sort?
  474. # [20:16] <Mathias__> I ran my site through gsnedders's excellent HTML5 outliner, and got this: http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http://adlebbeke.be/index
  475. # [20:16] <Dashiva> <nav> is a sectioning element, yes
  476. # [20:17] <Mathias__> <nav> is causing the 'Untitled Section'
  477. # [20:17] <Dashiva> But it doesn't _require_ a heading
  478. # [20:18] <Mathias__> I understand it doesn't require a heading (i.e. to validate as HTML5)
  479. # [20:19] <Mathias__> But should a heading be added, or not? Considering the only heading text I can think of is something like "Navigation", or "Menu"
  480. # [20:19] * webben1 wonders whether the outline algorithm should include provision for generic sections like navigation
  481. # [20:19] * Mathias__ isn't sure if that would add semantic value
  482. # [20:19] <webben1> Mathias__: The example in the spec uses <h1>Navigation</h1>
  483. # [20:19] <webben1> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-nav-element
  484. # [20:20] <Mathias__> Hmmm
  485. # [20:21] <Mathias__> Probably, it's useful to add a heading to <nav> when using more than one <nav> element in your document
  486. # [20:21] * Joins: Steve^ (n=steve@94.197.235.13.threembb.co.uk)
  487. # [20:21] <Mathias__> When there's only one <nav> element, it's safe to assume it's the main site navigation, right?
  488. # [20:22] <webben1> "wonders whether the outline algorithm should include provision for generic sections like navigation" ... oh wait, it does
  489. # [20:22] <webben1> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#headings-and-sections
  490. # [20:22] <webben1> "User agents should provide default headings for sections that do not have explicit section headings." "These default headings ("Untitled document", "Navigation", "Sidebar") are not specified by this specification, and might vary with the user's language, the page's language, the user's preferences, the user agent implementor's preferences, etc."
  491. # [20:23] <Dashiva> gsnedders|work: Is this enough to be considered a bug report?
  492. # [20:24] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  493. # [20:25] <webben1> Mathias__: So the upshot is, no, you should not need a heading if you only have the one nav.
  494. # [20:26] <webben1> Mathias__: Although that's not the same as the heading between useless - e.g. might be useful in today's user agents.
  495. # [20:27] <Mathias__> Ok, thanks for the help!
  496. # [20:28] <Mathias__> I'd be interested to know if the HTML4
  497. # [20:28] <Mathias__> I'd be interested to know if the HTML5* outliner will be updated in order to reflect what webben1 said
  498. # [20:31] * webben1 is now known as webben
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  513. # [22:30] <ScoobyDoo> Is it possible to automaticly click a button on a webpage via client side scripting?
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  524. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Well duh, convenience is overrated.
  525. # [23:33] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  526. # [23:37] <Philip`> gsnedders: What would consider an acceptable rating for convenience, out of five stars?
  527. # [23:37] * gsnedders shrugs
  528. # [23:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: yt?
  529. # [23:41] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@140.84-49-178.nextgentel.com)
  530. # Session Close: Sun Nov 01 00:00:00 2009

The end :)