/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 20 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <foolip> Sleep for me
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  6. # [00:09] <Dashiva> Angry Young Men
  7. # [00:10] <Dashiva> And something about white and not having any american representatives
  8. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> What are you *talking* about, Dashiva
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  10. # [00:13] <Dashiva> I was thinking about nicknames for whatwg
  11. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> It still has to have WHAT as an acronym.
  12. # [00:14] <Dashiva> Nickname, not backronym
  13. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Obviously, you should start it with White. Then presumably Hateful American Terrorists
  14. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Nicknames aren't fun if they're not backronyms.
  15. # [00:15] <Dashiva> White Hateful Arrogant Terrible Web Guys
  16. # [00:15] <Dashiva> Happy now?
  17. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Actually, no. Hateful sounds weird. Hate-filled is better.
  18. # [00:15] <Dashiva> How about haughty?
  19. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> And mlw called us American.
  20. # [00:16] <Dashiva> White Haughty Angry Treasonous Web Guys
  21. # [00:17] <ttepass-> s/Angry/Arrogant
  22. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Haughty *and* Arrogant. Damn.
  23. # [00:17] <Dashiva> H could be Hitler
  24. # [00:17] <ttepass-> Heteronormative.
  25. # [00:18] <JonathanNeal> WhatWG Hates Acronyms, Tropologically With Glee
  26. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> White Hitler-Adulating Terrorist Working Group.
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  28. # [00:18] <Dashiva> I'm not budging on Web Guys
  29. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> I like how sad Mat_t always looks when I see his quit message.
  30. # [00:19] <Dashiva> I suppose it's missing something about hating accessibility
  31. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Whites Hating Accessibility Tools
  32. # [00:20] <Dashiva> No, we hate accessibility itself, not the tools
  33. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> We Hate Accessibility Too
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  35. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> I don't understand why this superpreview thing is taking so long to load my website.
  36. # [00:22] <Dashiva> Something like this then (We Hate Accessibility Too) Haughty American Terrible Web Guys
  37. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> (WHAT)HATWG
  38. # [00:23] <Dashiva> The W is a subcronym
  39. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> That's not even a word.
  40. # [00:24] <Dashiva> It is now
  41. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Okay, granted.
  42. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Wow, man I was dumb when I wrote this app. Look at all these plaintext passwords.
  43. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Also: I probably shouldn't offer dates going back to 1950 if I'm storing them a timestamp in an unsigned integer.
  44. # [00:34] * TabAtkins boggles that he had enough skill to actually do this project, given the shameful practices on display.
  45. # [00:34] <Dashiva> Standard epoch is for sissies
  46. # [00:37] <Philip`> Wear Hats At The Weekends, Guys
  47. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> That's a backronym I can get behind.
  48. # [00:40] <Dashiva> Wear Hats At The W3C Gatherings
  49. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> I can only hope this spawns a hat craze in the WHATWG.
  50. # [00:40] * TabAtkins crosses fingers.
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  56. # [01:00] <Philip`> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/releasing-chromium-os-open-source.html - wow, it's an Ubuntu with a web browser :-o
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  59. # [01:01] <JonathanNeal> sans the Ubuntu
  60. # [01:02] <Philip`> It looks like it still has the Ubuntu
  61. # [01:03] <Philip`> give how e.g. http://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/chromium-os/building-chromium-os/build-instructions talks about Ubuntu a lot
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  63. # [01:14] <Dashiva> Whoa, this XML thread is such a trainwreck
  64. # [01:14] <Dashiva> "You only have to follow the XML spec if you claim to follow the XML spec"
  65. # [01:14] <Dashiva> I realize I'm 3 days late
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  67. # [01:19] <roc> they seem to be giving browsers permission to destroy any value in XML
  68. # [01:19] <roc> maybe we should just go ahead
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  70. # [01:26] <Dashiva> Pretty much
  71. # [01:26] <Dashiva> Then again, what else would you expect from the One True Scotsman standard
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  78. # [02:01] <Dashiva> So now Twitter parses RT...
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  166. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: seems like the iframe sandbox patch will land soon
  167. # [08:05] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: cool
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  169. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> cool to see rel=noreferrer got into nightlies recently too
  170. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> which reminds me, I think we need to re-start discussion of publishing an Origin header spec through IETF
  171. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> I guess on the http wg mailing list
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  191. # [09:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it seems v.nu has two bugs with datalist
  192. # [09:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: one parser bug where "any other end tag" doesn't imply </option>
  193. # [09:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: and list=foo doesn't work
  194. # [09:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is that a spec bug also or is the parser out of sync with the spec here?
  195. # [09:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  196. # [09:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: afaict from the spec </option> should be implied
  197. # [09:24] <zcorpan> there's no entry for "datalist" end tag, so it gets handled by "any other end tag"
  198. # [09:24] <zcorpan> whose steps run through once without doing anything but changing "node" to the next in the stack
  199. # [09:25] <zcorpan> and then returns to step 2 which generates implied end tags
  200. # [09:25] <hsivonen> If things go well, I intend to update the parser to spec next week
  201. # [09:26] <zcorpan> cool
  202. # [09:27] * GarethAdams|Home is now known as GarethAdams|FF09
  203. # [09:28] <zcorpan> feel free to curse me for the double escape dash dash stuff :)
  204. # [09:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I intend to implement that last after the other spec changes...
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  206. # [09:32] <zcorpan> ok
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  212. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I hope the datatype-warning patch I e-mailed you isn't too buffoonish
  213. # [09:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'll try to get to it soonish
  214. # [09:44] <hsivonen> (today)
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  216. # [09:44] <zcorpan> bugzilla.validator.nu doesn't load for me
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  218. # [09:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: weird. it loads for me
  219. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> wmf too
  220. # [09:46] <hsivonen> web-sniffer reaches it, too
  221. # [09:46] <zcorpan> hmm now it works
  222. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the patch, no rush.. from testing in the messageEmitterAdapter part, I can already see that the patch isn't making isWarning() available (though I don't know why).. and in the mean time, I'm working my way through the messageEmitterAdapter part
  223. # [09:49] <zcorpan> filed a bug
  224. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> ah wait, yeah, I did at least manage to get isWarning() set correctly
  225. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> baby steps
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  228. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> someday I will write a book: How to hack Java code even while having serious lack of cluefulness
  229. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> my strategy is basically to turn a bunch of knobs at random until the picture clears up
  230. # [09:57] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I raised the idea with the IETF of making a working group for HTTP Extensions for the Browsable Web, which could include Cookies, Origin, Strict Transport Security, sniffing, and other things along those lines
  231. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  232. # [09:57] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: in lieu of a WG for just HTTP State
  233. # [09:57] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I think I should pursue that further
  234. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> yeah, please to
  235. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: you talked about this with Lisa?
  236. # [09:58] <othermaciej> a little bit, yes
  237. # [09:58] <othermaciej> or rather, I talked to people who talked to her and she sent me mail
  238. # [09:58] <zcorpan> it seems like liam's first goal is already possible and that he's suggesting a purely editorial change to html5
  239. # [09:58] <hsivonen> is there yet any indication about how Google intends to proceed with SPDY as far as standardization goes?
  240. # [09:58] <othermaciej> I gave higher priority to the getting the Decision Policy done shortly after suggesting the idea
  241. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, understood
  242. # [09:59] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think they are interested in having it be a standard once it is fully baked
  243. # [09:59] <othermaciej> hsivonen: some of us from Apple are meeting with the Google folks who worked on it in two weeks
  244. # [09:59] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I sent them some preliminary questions, one was about whether they intended it to be used via https: or a new protocol
  245. # [09:59] <othermaciej> hsivonen: they said https: but I don't think they have worked out how the upgrade would go yet
  246. # [10:00] <zcorpan> as for his second point... it seems like namespace mashups and user-defined namespaces would require writing a namespace definition file, which seems like at least as much overhead as using namespace syntax
  247. # [10:00] <hsivonen> othermaciej: OK. (I expect the IETF WG for it to be "fun".)
  248. # [10:00] <othermaciej> I don't understand what a "namespace mashup" is
  249. # [10:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: for whatever reason, IETF people seem to respond more positively to SPDY than things like WebSocket protocol...
  250. # [10:01] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I'm a little uncertain about the upgrade story btw because it seems like there's no way to make it work right without losing at least a bit of the performance benefit of using SPDY in the first place...
  251. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: if you follow up with Lisa directly, you maybe also ask/remind her if Alexey Melinkov (the other IETF area director that some of this stuff relates to) should be brought into the loop on the discussion (if he's not been already). and feel free to Cc me too if you want (I talked with Lisa and Alexey both in Hiroshima and have had some e-mail discussion about other stuff after)
  252. # [10:02] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: ok
  253. # [10:02] <hsivonen> othermaciej: odd (about SPDY vs. Web Socket)
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  265. # [10:41] <krijnh> MikeSmith: I am now
  266. # [10:42] * GarethAdams|Home is now known as GarethAdams|FF09
  267. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> krijnh: can you consider setting up logging for #html-a11y on irc.w3.org? there's no activity there so far, but we will be using it going forward
  268. # [10:43] <krijnh> Sure :)
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  270. # [10:48] * pesla\work is now known as pesla
  271. # [10:48] <zcorpan> Philip`: you forgot about <input type=color value=#c0ee0e>
  272. # [10:48] <krijnh> MikeSmith: logging now, I'll set everything else up later
  273. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> krijnh: cheers -- much appreciated
  274. # [10:49] <krijnh> Np
  275. # [10:50] <Philip`> zcorpan: Oh, I kind of ignored that since it wasn't using colour keywords at all
  276. # [10:50] <Philip`> and also because I forgot :-(
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  287. # [11:33] <zcorpan> have microsoft said what from html5 ie9 will support? afaict they didn't mention one thing but still everyone says it'll "support html5"
  288. # [11:43] * Parts: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@114.48.69.34) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
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  291. # [11:50] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2009Nov/0009.html - hmm, when I first saw that big gap my immediate assumption was that it was an embedded YouTube video and I didn't have Flash enabled
  292. # [11:50] <Philip`> which is probably not a good assumption :-(
  293. # [11:51] <zcorpan> maybe jgraham fell asleep on the enter key
  294. # [11:57] <jgraham> Actually I had something stuck in my spacebar key which is had to hold down space to remove. But thunderbird was "helpfully" in html-compose mode and so collapsed all the spaces into one displayed space
  295. # [11:57] <jgraham> so I didn't realise that all the space characters were there :(
  296. # [11:59] <jgraham> Did the email make any sense apart from the huge gap?
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  298. # [12:01] <Philip`> Is the idea to work out which bits of the spec don't have tests yet? Or to work out which tests are made invalid when the spec changes? Or both?
  299. # [12:02] <jgraham> Philip`: Both seem useful
  300. # [12:04] <Philip`> For the latter case, is it not sufficient just to update implementations and see what tests start failing? (and have multiple independent implementations to be more sure neither introduced a bug)
  301. # [12:04] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  302. # [12:04] <Philip`> That's basically a way of automating the determination of what tests are affected by spec changes
  303. # [12:05] <Philip`> and seems more practical than automatically determining which tests *might* be affected, and then having a human check every single one of them to see if they really are affected
  304. # [12:05] <zcorpan> if the spec changes and no tests start failing after fixing impl, it's an indication of lack of tests
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  306. # [12:06] <Philip`> Indeed
  307. # [12:07] <Philip`> or a bug in the test harness :-)
  308. # [12:09] <jgraham> Right, that is basically what we have done so far
  309. # [12:10] <jgraham> But it is quite hard to be confident that one has updated the implementation correctly if you have a "fix the implementations then fix the test" approach
  310. # [12:11] <Philip`> That's why you have more than one implementation
  311. # [12:11] <jgraham> (and hence hard to be sure that you updated all the relevant tests)
  312. # [12:12] <Philip`> I don't think it's an ideal solution, though
  313. # [12:12] <jgraham> Philip`: Taking it to an extreme, why bother writing tests at all? Why not just fuzz input to different implementations and panic when they disagree
  314. # [12:12] <Philip`> but I'm not sure how it could be made better, and requiring more human effort per test case doesn't seem better
  315. # [12:13] <jgraham> Philip`: Agreed.
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  318. # [12:13] <Philip`> jgraham: That's basically what I did with the automatically-generated tokeniser tests - generate a load of inputs, and if html5lib disagreed then I checked its implementation and my implementation to work out which was wrong
  319. # [12:16] <Philip`> (Random inputs would be unlikely to get good coverage of the spec, but I had a systematic way of doing it which seemed to work okay)
  320. # [12:16] <zcorpan> the problem is making sure the coverage of the fuzzer is good enough
  321. # [12:17] <jgraham> I don't think fuzzing HTML is particularly difficult
  322. # [12:17] <jgraham> At least for the tree construction part
  323. # [12:18] <jgraham> Because there are basically a finite number of possible tokens at each point
  324. # [12:18] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  325. # [12:18] <jgraham> (that shopuld have observable differences in behaviour)
  326. # [12:18] <jgraham> The only problem is that some states would be quite rare
  327. # [12:19] <jgraham> Like getting exactly <table><colgroup>x
  328. # [12:20] <jgraham> (You could of course base your fuzzer on the spec somewhat so that it picked things that were "more likely" to be interesting given the previous n tokens
  329. # [12:20] <jgraham> i.e. an order n Markov-chain)
  330. # [12:22] <Philip`> My tokeniser thing was based on looking at the spec's transitions for the current state, and then picking a few representative characters for that transition
  331. # [12:22] <Philip`> and then occasionally pruning inputs that lead to the same state
  332. # [12:22] <Philip`> or something like that
  333. # [12:22] <Philip`> so I guess the same idea could work for tree construction, except with tags instead of characters
  334. # [12:43] * Joins: AryehGregor (n=Simetric@mediawiki/simetrical)
  335. # [12:46] <roc> zcorpan: I don't recall anything specific so far
  336. # [12:46] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-190-119.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  337. # [12:47] <hsivonen> people developing fuzzers for HTML5 parsing may want to coordinate with Jesse Ruderman
  338. # [12:49] <gsnedders> Philip`: But it didn't check stuff like whether all characters in Unicode class White_Space acted as whitespace in tokensization, for example, which is worth checking
  339. # [12:52] <jgraham> hsivonen: Is he doing that in particular
  340. # [12:52] <jgraham> ?
  341. # [12:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: It could be relatively easily extended to do that, I think
  342. # [12:53] <Philip`> It has a function to return interesting strings given a tokeniser transition condition, so it does stuff like "IsConsumedCharacter c -> [ [c]; [c-1]; [c+1] ]"
  343. # [12:53] <Philip`> and it could say if c=0x20 then try some other whitespacey characters too
  344. # [12:53] <Philip`> but that would require a human to think to test that
  345. # [12:54] <Philip`> so it's going to be far from perfect coverage of all possible bugs
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  347. # [12:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm not sure if he is doing it actively right now, but at least he was planning to
  348. # [12:55] <gsnedders> Philip`: Equally attribute values starting with other quote chars, etc.
  349. # [12:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: I think given a model of the tokenizer and some human specified things about interesting stuff we can probably get quite a long way
  350. # [12:57] * Joins: nattokirai (n=nattokir@y227107.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  351. # [12:57] * gsnedders started work on DOCTYPE quirks mode tests, but then I realized doubling the number of parser tests just for that might not be overly loved
  352. # [13:01] <zcorpan> roc: hmm? about what?
  353. # [13:01] <zcorpan> oh he disconnected
  354. # [13:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: about IE9 maybe?
  355. # [13:04] <zcorpan> ah
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  362. # [14:07] <gsnedders> heh. apparently W3C is at fault according to one comment on the IE9 blog post for never removing obsolete features.
  363. # [14:07] <gsnedders> HTML 4.01 doesn't contain NEXTID or PLAINTEXT! :P
  364. # [14:10] <Lachy> wow, several commenters there think MS should adopt webkit for IE
  365. # [14:11] <jcranmer> I vote no to that opinion
  366. # [14:11] <Lachy> don't they get that reducing competition in the browser market would suck?
  367. # [14:11] <gsnedders> That's not news
  368. # [14:11] <gsnedders> That's been going on since work on IE resumed
  369. # [14:11] <Lachy> I've heard many comments over the years suggesting that they should adopt Gecko. It's interesting that it's now swung over to WebKi
  370. # [14:11] <Lachy> *WebKit
  371. # [14:12] <jcranmer> they would switch, but they need to port webkit to Visual Basic first :-)
  372. # [14:12] <Philip`> Yeah, Microsoft should adopt WebKit and then compete with Apple and Google purely on user interface design
  373. # [14:12] <Lachy> haha
  374. # [14:12] <jgraham> Don't they get that the Microsoft board would sooner eat faeces than let their company adopt ${third party layout engine}
  375. # [14:13] <gsnedders> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=2&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change&sid=1450088
  376. # [14:13] <jcranmer> no, they can beat Chrome on stability
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  383. # [14:52] <hsivonen> how many factual errors can you spot in this article? http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1409807&seqNum=2
  384. # [14:54] <hsivonen> "This chapter is from the book
  385. # [14:54] <hsivonen> Designing with Web Standards, 3rd Edition"
  386. # [14:54] <hsivonen> says the page
  387. # [14:56] <Dashiva> "RDF controls, menus, and toolbars"
  388. # [14:56] <Dashiva> What?
  389. # [14:56] <jgraham> wtf is HTML<sub>5</sub> and why did they steal our name?
  390. # [15:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: our name?
  391. # [15:02] * Parts: Michelangelo (n=Michelan@93-42-104-75.ip86.fastwebnet.it)
  392. # [15:02] <Dashiva> Hixie's name, surely
  393. # [15:02] <Philip`> That could really do with some technical review from someone who actually understands this stuff
  394. # [15:02] <gsnedders> WTF is an RDF control?
  395. # [15:02] <gsnedders> A method of editing triples?
  396. # [15:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: indeed
  397. # [15:03] <Dashiva> Are there any major errors, though? Technicalities aren't so important in a text meant for the uninitiated
  398. # [15:03] <Dashiva> (I didn't read it closely)
  399. # [15:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well clearly whatever they are describing there isn't HTML5
  400. # [15:03] <jgraham> It is this weird HTML<sub>5</sub> thing
  401. # [15:03] * Joins: Michelangelo (n=Michelan@93-42-104-75.ip86.fastwebnet.it)
  402. # [15:05] <jgraham> Dashiva: Pretty much every verifyable statement in the article seems to be wrong
  403. # [15:06] <jgraham> e.g. Hixie doesn't chair WHATWG or HTMLWG
  404. # [15:07] <jgraham> Some things just make no sense "HTML and XHTML are document languages that contain outline structure but no hint of page structure"
  405. # [15:07] <gsnedders> We have a chair?
  406. # [15:08] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Surely Hixie doesn't sit on the floor when he edits the spec
  407. # [15:08] <hsivonen> Dashiva: my vague recollection is that I've seen Hixie edit the spec sitting on the floor
  408. # [15:08] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@90-248-234-66.static.cosmoweb.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  409. # [15:09] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I'm of the understanding he normally edits the spec sitting on a sofa
  410. # [15:09] <gsnedders> But yes, I too think I have seen Hixie editing the spec on a floor.
  411. # [15:10] <Philip`> Dashiva: It seems to basically be "Brief history with loads of technical errors. HTML5 has some new structural elements so you don't have to use div. Some comedy based on a technical error. Some more history. IE8's standards mode toggle was controversial but I'm not going to say what the outcome was. Advertisement for WSP and Dreamweaver and Expression. Validation is good." and that's about it
  412. # [15:11] <Philip`> so it doesn't have major errors because it does really make any major points or arguments
  413. # [15:11] <Philip`> s/does/doesn't/
  414. # [15:12] <Philip`> s/error/misunderstanding/ maybe
  415. # [15:14] <Philip`> I suppose Apple people might be unhappy that it only mentions Mozilla and Opera as the members of WHAT (sic)
  416. # [15:14] <Philip`> and mentions Apple only in the context of being more secretive than Microsoft
  417. # [15:14] <gsnedders> image/svg+xml is never sniffed?
  418. # [15:15] <gsnedders> Yeah, that's true
  419. # [15:15] <Philip`> (So secretive that they hide most of their browser development in plain sight in a public SVN repository)
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  423. # [15:26] <Philip`> Also, now that I think about it (which is probably an unwise move), the comedy reference doesn't even make any sense at all
  424. # [15:26] <Philip`> and has no relevance to what it's attempting to have relevance to
  425. # [15:29] <Philip`> http://www.zeldman.com/2009/11/13/mission-of-promo/#comment-49680 - maybe he could get all the other errors fixed too
  426. # [15:30] * jgraham wonders if he is the only one who is annoyed by attension-seeking "follow me" links
  427. # [15:31] <jgraham> *attention
  428. # [15:32] <TabAtkins> I sort of hope that's not really an excerpt from Zeldman's book.
  429. # [15:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: formatted for print maybe?
  430. # [15:32] <TabAtkins> But it is. Sigh.
  431. # [15:32] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: me, too, mut the link Philip gave seems to indicate it's genuine
  432. # [15:33] * Joins: mpilgrim (n=mark@adsl-162-132-170.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  433. # [15:34] <zcorpan> maybe he should have used mpilgrim's approach and write the book online, so people could point out errors before printing the book
  434. # [15:34] * Philip` wonders if anyone is going to bother telling Zeldman
  435. # [15:34] <mpilgrim> i don't think that would have helped
  436. # [15:35] <hsivonen> which reminds me I should report a minor factual error to mpilgrim
  437. # [15:35] <hsivonen> oh. he is here
  438. # [15:35] * mpilgrim is listening
  439. # [15:35] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: IIRC, you stated a number for standards-mode doctypes
  440. # [15:35] <TabAtkins> Your book's out, right, mpilgrim?
  441. # [15:35] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: they are infinite
  442. # [15:36] <mpilgrim> tabatkins: it's still a work-in-progress at http://diveintohtml5.org/
  443. # [15:36] <jgraham> Philip`: You should
  444. # [15:36] <mpilgrim> brought to you by carls jr.
  445. # [15:36] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: really? why?
  446. # [15:36] <TabAtkins> Darn, I wanted to buy it for my sister for Xmas.
  447. # [15:36] <zcorpan> (quirky and almost-quirky doctypes are also infinite)
  448. # [15:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: true
  449. # [15:36] <mpilgrim> no, won't be out on dead trees until feb. at the earliest
  450. # [15:36] <TabAtkins> ;_;
  451. # [15:36] <Philip`> html5.org is a pretty boring page, why should I bother diving into it?
  452. # [15:36] <mpilgrim> i'm told there will be a kindle edition too
  453. # [15:37] <mpilgrim> for maximum irony
  454. # [15:37] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: if the doctype doesn't match the quirky rule or the almost standards rule, the 'anything else' case is standards
  455. # [15:37] <mpilgrim> hey, at least it's not "Dive Into HTML<sub>5</sub>"
  456. # [15:37] <Philip`> (html5.org has awesome subdomains though)
  457. # [15:37] <zcorpan> mpilgrim: <!doctype html public "a"> is standards mode, and you can append anything and any number of characters after "a" and it'll still be standards mode
  458. # [15:37] <hsivonen> and has been even when the quirky list wasn't infinite
  459. # [15:37] <mpilgrim> i did not know that
  460. # [15:37] <zcorpan> except "
  461. # [15:38] <mpilgrim> i'll try to find a clever way of phrasing that
  462. # [15:38] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: of course, authors shoudn't rely on this knowledge
  463. # [15:38] <zcorpan> for quirks mode it's similar; any doctype with a name other than "html" triggers quirks mode
  464. # [15:38] <hsivonen> so it's better to state it so that it isn't factually incorrect but it might be a good idea not to highlight the state of affairs
  465. # [15:39] <zcorpan> and almost standards doctypes can use trailing garbage or any system identifier
  466. # [15:39] <mpilgrim> looks like the point i was trying to make with the numbers was that quirks mode expanded over time
  467. # [15:39] <mpilgrim> so i'll just remove the bit about how many standards mode doctypes there are
  468. # [15:39] <mpilgrim> and call it a day
  469. # [15:40] <hsivonen> sounds like a good fix
  470. # [15:40] <TabAtkins> Tangent: I love stackoverflow and want to have its babies.
  471. # [15:40] <mpilgrim> we need a random doctype generator
  472. # [15:41] <zcorpan> print "<!doctype" + random() + ">"
  473. # [15:41] <jgraham> TabAtkins: If you do that try to keep the children away from the obnoxius advertising that has been the downfall of their father
  474. # [15:42] <TabAtkins> I will endeavor to this end, jgraham.
  475. # [15:42] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Your random doctypes are dull and boring.
  476. # [15:43] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: why?
  477. # [15:43] <TabAtkins> Who wants a random number in the doctype? They need adventure and excitement!
  478. # [15:44] <zcorpan> maybe random() doesn't return a number but adventure and excitement?
  479. # [15:45] <TabAtkins> I doubt this, unless you have a truly surprising implementation of random().
  480. # [15:45] <Philip`> print "<!doctype ", (pack L => rand 2**32), ">"
  481. # [15:46] <Philip`> That'll rarely give you numbers
  482. # [15:46] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  483. # [15:47] <jgraham> Personally I implement random() as a call to a webservice that buys me a ticket to vegas, whereon I roll a fair die, fly home and enter the result. It has bto be async to keep the UI responsive though
  484. # [15:47] * Quits: cpharmston (n=cpharmst@pool-173-66-156-203.washdc.fios.verizon.net) ("Leaving.")
  485. # [15:47] <jgraham> *wherein
  486. # [15:47] <TabAtkins> I'm glad the webservice does the buying. Could get pricey otherwise.
  487. # [15:48] <zcorpan> it sends the bill to TabAtkins
  488. # [15:48] <TabAtkins> DAMMIT
  489. # [15:48] <jgraham> Sure, I use your account details
  490. # [15:48] <Philip`> It's lucky that the ticket is the only possible expense that could conceivably occur while you're in Vegas, otherwise it could indeed get pricey
  491. # [15:49] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Do you need the "a" in the standards-mode doctype, or will any starting letter suffice?
  492. # [15:49] <jgraham> Huh? I don't gamble, I just think the dice in vegas are more fair
  493. # [15:49] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: could be anything so long as you don't end up with something that triggers quirks mode
  494. # [15:50] * mpilgrim finally finished reading that atrocious zeldman/marcotte article
  495. # [15:50] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Make sure you don't put DOCTYPE NETSC inside the aaaaa... string, else IE will go into quirks mode
  496. # [15:51] * Joins: fishd__ (n=darin@c-98-207-16-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  497. # [15:52] <mpilgrim> i think zeldman has a different definition of "dead end" than i do
  498. # [15:52] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/etc/doctype.php
  499. # [15:53] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Should be "PUBLIC" for XML compatibility, I think
  500. # [15:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: XML compat also requires a system id
  501. # [15:54] <Philip`> Oh, actually it should be "SYSTEM"
  502. # [15:54] <TabAtkins> That'll keep standards?
  503. # [15:54] <Philip`> or what hsivonen said
  504. # [15:54] * TabAtkins knows nothing about doctypes.
  505. # [15:54] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: unless your random generator collides with the one magic IBM doctype
  506. # [15:54] <hsivonen> IBM intranet FTW!
  507. # [15:54] <TabAtkins> So <!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM "foo">?
  508. # [15:54] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I think so, since that's what the about:legacy-compat doctype uses
  509. # [15:55] <TabAtkins> kk
  510. # [15:55] <TabAtkins> Done.
  511. # [15:56] <zcorpan> who cares about xml compat
  512. # [15:56] <zcorpan> <!doctype html system "" LOL>
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  514. # [15:56] <hsivonen> Philip`, apparently
  515. # [15:56] <gsnedders> zcorpan: That's quirks, no?
  516. # [15:56] <zcorpan> no
  517. # [15:56] <gsnedders> zcorpan: because the correctness flag is false from parser?
  518. # [15:56] <TabAtkins> It's just a good thing I already had a big list of colors and animals. I'm not sure why.
  519. # [15:57] <zcorpan> gsnedders: garbage after system identifier is ignored
  520. # [15:57] <gsnedders> zcorpan: So it seems. Odd.
  521. # [15:57] <zcorpan> firefox compat
  522. # [15:57] <Philip`> zcorpan: Maybe Wikipedia would switch to the PUBLIC "lightgreen-hedgehog" doctype without realising it'll break XML consumers
  523. # [15:58] <zcorpan> (pages have doctypes that end with /> and expect standards mode)
  524. # [15:58] <TabAtkins> I like my "snow-crow" doctype.
  525. # [15:58] <zcorpan> Philip`: indeed, the xhtml 1.0 strict fpi is needed for entities
  526. # [15:58] <TabAtkins> I want to use it from now on.
  527. # [15:59] <TabAtkins> Though, to be consistent, I should probably just grab whatever the doctype of the moment is whenever i create a new page.
  528. # [15:59] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: you might get random 404s from validating xml parsers
  529. # [16:00] <TabAtkins> Good thing I don't care.
  530. # [16:00] <TabAtkins> I already get random 404s from some spider that can't read unicode in urls anyway.
  531. # [16:00] <TabAtkins> And just tosses the characters.
  532. # [16:00] <mpilgrim> also, different definitions of "parent organization," "RDF," "page structure," "tolerance," "clean," "structured," "semantic," "chair," and "comedy"
  533. # [16:02] <Philip`> TabAtkins: You should limit it to combinations that mostly rhyme, like snow-crow and purple-turtle and peru-gnu and, um, salmon-salmon and teal-teal
  534. # [16:03] <TabAtkins> That would be far more work than is worth it. The five minutes I spent assembling it is too much work already.
  535. # [16:04] <mpilgrim> surely there's an RDF-enabled rhyming dictionary somewhere?
  536. # [16:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: /> on doctypes is sad
  537. # [16:04] <Philip`> Finding rhymes is hard :-(
  538. # [16:04] <TabAtkins> mpilgrim: That would also require me to care about RDF.
  539. # [16:04] <Philip`> I'm glad I'm not a poet
  540. # [16:06] <Philip`> magenta-centaur?
  541. # [16:07] <TabAtkins> Are you trying to rhyme, or did you just get that?
  542. # [16:08] <TabAtkins> Because they don't rhyme unless you *really* rhoticize the magenta into magentar.
  543. # [16:08] <Philip`> I'm trying
  544. # [16:08] <Philip`> but it's hard :-(
  545. # [16:13] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@conference/ubuntu-developer-summit/x-qmvqryfwjcoeqjqt)
  546. # [16:14] <hsivonen> it seems a bit sad that there doesn't seem to be all-round agreement that two browsers using sqlite don't constitute two independent interoperable implementations
  547. # [16:14] * TabAtkins likes the <small> tag, and is glad it made it in.
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  549. # [16:14] <TabAtkins> Are they implementing sqlite interoperably?
  550. # [16:14] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I don't know. It fails at the "independent" step.
  551. # [16:14] <TabAtkins> … What?
  552. # [16:15] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: If browser S and browser O both use sqlite, the sqlite part is not independently implemented twice. it's implemented only once.
  553. # [16:15] <TabAtkins> That... that doesn't make any sense.
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  556. # [16:16] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: how so?
  557. # [16:16] <hsivonen> if the same code is used, it's not independent code
  558. # [16:16] <hsivonen> it's the same code
  559. # [16:16] <Philip`> Presumably two independent browsers running on the same platform would be okay
  560. # [16:16] <TabAtkins> Sure, if you're talking about the sqlite spec. But not if you're talking about some spec that happens to use sqlite (which I assume you were).
  561. # [16:17] <Philip`> even though the platform code is shared
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  563. # [16:17] <Philip`> so where is the distinction between platform features and browser features?
  564. # [16:17] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I'm not talking about a spec called sqlite. I'm talking about a piece of software called sqlite.
  565. # [16:17] <Philip`> s/features/code/g
  566. # [16:17] <TabAtkins> Okay, yes. Two browsers both implementing the same sqlite code do not count as independent implements of sqlite.
  567. # [16:18] <TabAtkins> s/implements/implementations/
  568. # [16:18] <Philip`> If everyone uses libpng, ddoes that mean there aren't two independent implementations of e.g. toDataURL('image/png')?
  569. # [16:18] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes
  570. # [16:18] <Philip`> s/dd/
  571. # [16:18] <Philip`> s/$/d\//
  572. # [16:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: are all Web-compatible browsers using libpng and the IJG libjpeg?
  573. # [16:19] <Philip`> Don't know, but it doesn't seem unlikely
  574. # [16:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: at least I don't have data showing that either PNG or JPEG decoding has two independent Web-compatible implementations
  575. # [16:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: Do you consider that to be a problem?
  576. # [16:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: not a severe one
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  578. # [16:21] <Philip`> It doesn't stop people writing new browsers, because they can just use libpng
  579. # [16:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: as long as they are willing to call into code written in C
  580. # [16:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: it would suck if one day someone wrote a browser in a memory-safe language and found that there's secret sauce to decoding PNG that isn't in the PNG spec
  581. # [16:22] <Philip`> Should that block specs that depend on PNG from fulfilling their two-interoperable-implementation Rec criteria?
  582. # [16:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: probably not
  583. # [16:23] <Philip`> Should a similar situation with SQLite?
  584. # [16:24] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes, given that sqlite is different from libpng in the sense that it doesn't have a Web-compatible maintenance story
  585. # [16:24] * Philip` doesn't think the SQLite thing is good, but isn't sure how to clearly define why it's a problem
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  587. # [16:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: also, I tend to see PNG and JPEG more as grandfathered parts of the platform than as something that you can use to reason about independent impls.
  588. # [16:26] <hsivonen> (and maybe MS has independent impls or PNG and JPEG and I'm just unaware)
  589. # [16:26] <hsivonen> (and maybe the pure Java impls of PNG are actually truly interoperable)
  590. # [16:27] * Philip` notes that the two APNG implementations are not interoperable
  591. # [16:27] <hsivonen> (also, having read the PNG spec, it seems credible that it actually describes the libpng impl)
  592. # [16:27] <hsivonen> I have more doubts about the spec quality of JFIF
  593. # [16:28] <mpilgrim> Philip`: it's OK to raise our standards over time
  594. # [16:29] <mpilgrim> lots of stuff in the first 20 years of the web was hackish and underdocumented
  595. # [16:29] <mpilgrim> doesn't mean we can't demand more from future standards
  596. # [16:30] <mpilgrim> (for the record, i agree with mozilla's concerns about an underspecified SQL language, but i don't think it'll make a difference in the long run)
  597. # [16:30] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: why no difference in the long run?
  598. # [16:31] <mpilgrim> apple isn't just going to remove their implementation
  599. # [16:31] <mpilgrim> google has publicly committed to implementing it in chrome in 2010
  600. # [16:31] <mpilgrim> i think market pressure will eventually force mozilla to implement it too
  601. # [16:32] <mpilgrim> but that doesn't make it a good standard, that's just the reality of the marketplace
  602. # [16:32] <Philip`> Are the SQLite developers interested in helping web use?
  603. # [16:33] <mpilgrim> dunno
  604. # [16:33] <hsivonen> on the bright side, SQLite doesn't have a more restrictive license than libpng or libjpeg, so in that sense, they are in the same category
  605. # [16:34] <webben> Are the distinct requirements of use by web browsers - as opposed to other uses - written down somewhere?
  606. # [16:35] <hsivonen> webben: the main difference the Web brings are stricter security requirements and stricter backwards compat requirements
  607. # [16:36] <hsivonen> (assuming that we aren't even talking about whether SQL in general is a bad choice for browsers and CouchDBesque solutions would be better)
  608. # [16:38] <webben> i see
  609. # [16:41] <Philip`> By "SQL in general" do you mean the syntax, or the relational model?
  610. # [16:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: both the relational model and a query language vaguely like the vagueness that is SQL
  611. # [16:43] <hsivonen> at this point, for all practical purposes, the relational model and SQL go hand-in-hand
  612. # [16:43] <hsivonen> doesn't really make sense to have one without the other
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  614. # [16:46] <hsivonen> Wow. the P part of DAP is worse than I thought
  615. # [16:47] * hsivonen just read http://www.w3.org/mid/7789133a0911191522y510c0e5cubbfa43f7a148943e@mail.gmail.com
  616. # [16:48] <Philip`> hsivonen: Lots of libraries provide the relational model (with selects and joins and columns and keys and indexes and constraints and query optimisers and whatever) without any SQL syntax, hiding it behind things that look like normal programming
  617. # [16:48] <Philip`> e.g. LINQ
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  619. # [16:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: good point
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  621. # [16:51] <Philip`> A different syntax would likely be more usable and prevent stupid SQL injection bugs and would isolate web content from some of the details of SQL (since every SQL database has quite different syntax for the same concepts)
  622. # [16:51] <Philip`> but would also take effort to design and be harder to learn for people who already know SQL
  623. # [16:51] * Dashiva waves to auto_increment
  624. # [16:52] <Philip`> but it seems like it should be part of any discussions about SQLite vs alternatives
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  631. # [17:04] <zcorpan> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/11/18/expense-reports#comments makes me think of http://xkcd.com/386/
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  635. # [17:25] <TabAtkins> Heh. We have amusing quotes so regularly on the whatwg stats page.
  636. # [17:25] <gsnedders> From the wonders of JS in the real world: 'try{ // this is needed for now since the above regexp parsing needs more test verification'
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  645. # [18:10] <gsnedders> If there are any masochists who take pleasure from HTML regexps: http://www.mkyong.com/regular-expressions/10-java-regular-expression-examples-you-should-know/
  646. # [18:13] <Dashiva> Oh joy, yet another broken email regexp
  647. # [18:14] <Dashiva> And a file filter that doesn't support .jpeg files...
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  688. # [21:11] <incluye> Which of the new tags are inline by default?
  689. # [21:11] <incluye> Like, <aside> for instancew.
  690. # [21:11] <incluye> *instance.
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  692. # [21:14] <annevk> see section 11.2.2
  693. # [21:14] <annevk> <aside> is block
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  752. # Session Close: Sat Nov 21 00:00:00 2009

The end :)