/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-30 / end

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  55. # [08:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm here now, but I guess you're still asleep.
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  113. # [12:55] <gsnedders> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/11/23/ie8-smartscreen-in-action.aspx --- more codec argument fun?
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  118. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2Fhtml5%2Ftests%2Fvalidation%2Ffull%2Finvalid%2Fobsolete%2Fcenter.html
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  142. # [14:24] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: cool
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  144. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: see also http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2Fhtml5%2Ftests%2Fvalidation%2Ffull%2Finvalid%2Fobsolete%2Flang-deprecated.html
  145. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> the "Use ro instead." part is new
  146. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: if you have any open non-parser v.nu bugs that you want me look at, let me know
  147. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> I've resolved all that I had assigned to myself
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  162. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> hendry: w3c is not really responsible for the URL/URI/IRI terminology screwup
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  165. # [15:25] <timz> MikeSmith: v.nu == validator.nu ?
  166. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> timz: yep
  167. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> hendry: I wanted to ask you about how come you have that regex replace in you validation script, to remove the quotes .. was wondering if you did that because you ran into problems with the quotes, or just because you were annoyed by them
  168. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> timz: you have any validator.nu bugs in want of fixing?
  169. # [15:29] <timz> dunno if it is a parser thing but : lang="us-EN" gives an error.. bad ISO language ?
  170. # [15:29] <timz> in html5 validation
  171. # [15:29] <Philip`> You want lang="en-US"
  172. # [15:30] <timz> sorry i meant that
  173. # [15:30] <timz> http://depulz.nl/rdfa/city.html
  174. # [15:30] <timz> gives the error
  175. # [15:31] <Philip`> That has lang="us-EN"
  176. # [15:31] <Philip`> You want lang="en-US"
  177. # [15:31] <timz> argh
  178. # [15:31] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: who did cause the terminology screwup?
  179. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: a lot of people I guess
  180. # [15:32] <timz> my bad, it validates now..
  181. # [15:33] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  182. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> the effectiveness of w3c-bashing gets eroded when people misuse it.. it should best be reserved to stuff that w3c is really to blame for -- like the DOM, and like taking 10 years to get around to chartering a working group to deliver a major update to HTML
  183. # [15:37] * Philip` blames the W3C for the web
  184. # [15:38] <Dashiva> Can we blame w3c for RDF, or is that just individuals who happen to be associated with w3c?
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  186. # [15:38] <jgraham> I thought Steve Jobs was responsible for the RDF
  187. # [15:39] <Dashiva> Wrong RDF
  188. # [15:39] <Dashiva> Besides, he just stole it
  189. # [15:39] <Lachy> huh?
  190. # [15:39] <Lachy> what has Steve Jobs got to do with RDF?
  191. # [15:40] <Dashiva> Reality distortion field
  192. # [15:40] <Lachy> ah
  193. # [15:40] <daedb> Steve Jobs uses his RDF to make the W3C create the other RDF, obviously.
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  195. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> Dashiva, well, W3C didn't invent RDF
  196. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> one guy did
  197. # [15:42] <timz> tbl ?
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  199. # [15:42] <Dashiva> Yeah, but it takes a village to raise the child
  200. # [15:42] <Philip`> Did Steve Jobs make Wife Swap too?
  201. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> the W3C just sorta built a temple around it, after it was invented
  202. # [15:42] <workmad3> w3c doesn't create anything... it just standardises other creations to give them a thin veneer of respectability and bog down any form of progress...
  203. # [15:43] <gsnedders> I mean, there were 12 year old kids on the RDF WG! :P
  204. # [15:43] <Philip`> workmad3: I think you mean "to encourage cooperation and interoperability between vendors"
  205. # [15:43] <workmad3> Philip`: oh yeah, that's the one
  206. # [15:43] <workmad3> sorry for the typo ;)
  207. # [15:43] <Philip`> Easy mistake to make
  208. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> w3c invented XHTML2
  209. # [15:44] <gsnedders> So, your employer invented something useless is what you mean?
  210. # [15:45] * Joins: Sirisian_ (n=Sirisian@pix054-023.pix.wmich.edu)
  211. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> XHTML2 wasn't useless.. it was a necessary step towards enlightenment
  212. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> the child has to stumble before it learns to walk
  213. # [15:46] <Philip`> "I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
  214. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> get burned in order to learn to be afraid of fire
  215. # [15:47] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-67-161-44-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  216. # [15:48] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.66)
  217. # [15:48] <Dashiva> /tweet @MikeSmith is encouraging setting fire to babies
  218. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: no, just burning them a little bit
  219. # [15:51] <Dashiva> A minor loss of accuracy is acceptable in all journalism
  220. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> the zen master asked, "What is the sound of one hand clapping."
  221. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> ... and the answer was, XHTML2
  222. # [15:52] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Beauty.
  223. # [15:53] <gsnedders> (and that is truth.)
  224. # [15:55] <Philip`> And then the zen master pulled its eyeball out
  225. # [15:55] * Philip` wonders if that's zen or something else
  226. # [15:56] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i can clap with one hand
  227. # [16:00] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@static-151-196-60-88.balt.east.verizon.net)
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  229. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> there's a whole lot of things can be done with one hand
  230. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> I did a presentation at Reboot once, called Ten Things You Can Do With the Palm of Your Hand
  231. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> it included the word "wank" as well as the work "spank".. which had a nice kind of symmetry to it
  232. # [16:03] <Dashiva> I see. http://8.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ktwekyfFlc1qzschmo1_500.png
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  236. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: lovely. And while we're on the subject of wanking, I'm wondering if anybody here has seen the issue of Playgirl with Sarah Palin's non-son-in-law yet
  237. # [16:07] * Quits: Sirisian_ (n=Sirisian@pix054-023.pix.wmich.edu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  240. # [16:10] * danbri wanders past ... can I ask a question about HTML, or did I get the wrong channel?
  241. # [16:10] <jgraham> You can
  242. # [16:10] <danbri> say I have timed annotations to display over a video, ... can I expect nice APIs from HTML5 eg. call back linked to milliseconds offset? how are people doing subtitles?
  243. # [16:10] * danbri doesn't remember seeing anything, googles again
  244. # [16:14] <jgraham> danbri: It is an ongoing discussion; see recent WHATWG threads and
  245. # [16:14] <jgraham> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/HTML5_captions_v2
  246. # [16:14] <jgraham> and
  247. # [16:14] <danbri> thanks for the pointer
  248. # [16:14] <jgraham> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_Overlay
  249. # [16:15] <danbri> do browsers have much implemented already?
  250. # [16:15] * danbri working on wiring up remote remote controls...
  251. # [16:15] <zcorpan_> i think the nice api has been specced, redesigned, dropped, redesigned
  252. # [16:15] <danbri> heh
  253. # [16:15] <zcorpan_> but not actually implemented
  254. # [16:15] * danbri can use an iphone to create annotations, but that's only fun if there's a way to display 'em
  255. # [16:15] <danbri> ok i'll click around, cheers
  256. # [16:18] * Joins: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
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  262. # [16:29] <miketaylr> danbri: here's a jquery plugin that you could hack for annotations: http://paulirish.com/demo/annotate
  263. # [16:31] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  264. # [16:32] <danbri> ooh thanks
  265. # [16:32] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-67-161-44-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  266. # [16:33] <foolip> danbri: if you have some input (as an author) on how to do this nicely, please do leave feedback
  267. # [16:33] <danbri> will do, if i think of anything!
  268. # [16:33] * foolip spent half the weekend writing http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_Overlay
  269. # [16:34] <foolip> (the other half on microdata, haha)
  270. # [16:34] <danbri> i tihnk i need to set up an atompub server or similar to receive annotations from phone first...
  271. # [16:34] <danbri> microdata, the lovechild of microformats and rdfa?
  272. # [16:34] <foolip> danbri: I guess what you're asking for is a simple cue range/time range callback API?
  273. # [16:34] <foolip> danbri: yes, that microdata
  274. # [16:35] <foolip> except there's not a whole lotta love involved
  275. # [16:35] <danbri> the rdfa folk are saying 'but it looks nothing like me!'...? ;)
  276. # [16:36] <foolip> they're saying different things, most of which amount to "we have different priorities and values"
  277. # [16:36] <danbri> i think i might be asking for that... basically i expect to have piles of time-offset bits and pieces (eg. tags that relate a bit of a video to metadata expressed with dbpedia/wikipedia URIs, sound clips, ... rdfa/microdata stuff yes)
  278. # [16:36] <foolip> self-promotion: http://blog.foolip.org/2009/08/23/microformats-vs-rdfa-vs-microdata/
  279. # [16:36] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p2197-ipbf7505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  280. # [16:36] <danbri> what are you making with microdata?
  281. # [16:37] <zcorpan_> i think foolip is just implementing it to annoy rdfa people
  282. # [16:37] <danbri> if he's doing it with neo4j, it should be a good testbed environment for mixing microdata w/ other rdf stuff
  283. # [16:38] <foolip> danbri: I'm just trying to implement the DOM API (http://gitorious.org/microdatajs), then I'll see if it's actually useful for a JavaScript-enhanced neo4j-webservice, basically
  284. # [16:38] <foolip> danbri: you know about neo4j, the coolest database on earth?
  285. # [16:38] <gsnedders> neo4j?
  286. # [16:39] * gsnedders hopes that doesn't mean"for Java"
  287. # [16:39] <foolip> it sure does
  288. # [16:39] <foolip> and it's a joy to work with
  289. # [16:39] <foolip> of course I'm biased because it's my best friend's product/company
  290. # [16:40] * danbri has seen a few mentions of neo4j but never investigated properly
  291. # [16:40] <foolip> gsnedders: but if you don't like Java, adding a webservice on top of it is exactly what you'd want ;)
  292. # [16:40] <danbri> nice writeup foolip
  293. # [16:40] * Quits: Sirisian__ (n=Sirisian@141.218.54.23) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  294. # [16:40] <foolip> danbri: do read the post by Jeni, it makes many good points "from the other side"
  295. # [16:41] <foolip> I'd mention Shelley too, but then she'd swoop down and say hi
  296. # [16:41] * gsnedders may be bias seeming he read that post on a coach with foolip in the seat behind
  297. # [16:41] <foolip> hi Shelley, we all know you're grepping the logs
  298. # [16:41] * danbri is on all sides
  299. # [16:42] * Joins: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.54.23)
  300. # [16:42] <danbri> think i saw jeni's at the time
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  306. # [16:59] <erlehmann> i want to update my creative commons microdata markup generator
  307. # [16:59] <erlehmann> so are there more examples than http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#examples-1 ??
  308. # [17:01] <erlehmann> the new synthax is confusing
  309. # [17:01] <foolip> erlehmann: can you elaborate?
  310. # [17:01] <erlehmann> foolip, http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/cc-license-markup/generator2.xhtml
  311. # [17:01] <erlehmann> this generates markup according to an old version of the spec
  312. # [17:02] <erlehmann> when <figure> had <legend> and so on
  313. # [17:02] <erlehmann> i want to update it
  314. # [17:02] <foolip> right
  315. # [17:02] <foolip> is there any part in particular which is confusing?
  316. # [17:02] <foolip> otherwise it's just s/item/itemscope/ and then some, right?
  317. # [17:03] <erlehmann> foolip, itemscope is used for <figure>, right ?
  318. # [17:04] <foolip> yes
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  320. # [17:04] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  321. # [17:04] <foolip> oh, I see you're not looking at the right spec
  322. # [17:05] <foolip> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/vocabs/current-work/#licensing-works
  323. # [17:05] <foolip> there's an example which is more or less exactly what you want
  324. # [17:06] <foolip> although the <dd>/<dt> issue still seems to be in flux
  325. # [17:06] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@static-151-196-60-88.balt.east.verizon.net)
  326. # [17:06] <zcorpan_> wasn't the conclusion to just add a wrapping div if you care about ie7?
  327. # [17:06] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@dslb-088-077-091-109.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  328. # [17:07] <erlehmann> foolip, flux ? haven't seen any mails on that in a while
  329. # [17:07] <foolip> I haven't been bothered to follow it that closely
  330. # [17:07] <foolip> I'll take zcorpan_'s word for it
  331. # [17:08] <zcorpan_> (and don't do createElement('figure') but style the div instead, iirc)
  332. # [17:09] <foolip> or don't use <dd>/<dt> at all, it isn't *mandatory* is it?
  333. # [17:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  334. # [17:10] <foolip> I'll probably be doing <figure><img>caption</figure> and letting google figure out what is the image and what is the description
  335. # [17:11] <zcorpan_> it is mandatory
  336. # [17:11] <foolip> meh, but why?
  337. # [17:11] <webben> foolip: since figure isn't just for images
  338. # [17:11] <foolip> so?
  339. # [17:12] <Lachy> we should just drop dt/dd for use in figure. It never made any sense to use those there.
  340. # [17:12] <webben> so one can't reliably conclude caption is caption I guess.
  341. # [17:12] <foolip> webben: so?
  342. # [17:12] <zcorpan_> semantics!
  343. # [17:12] <erlehmann> Lachy, what is the alternative. Legend had DOM issues (though i liked it better)
  344. # [17:12] <Lachy> With the latest hack, people may as well just use <div class="figure"><img><p class="caption">...</p></div> anyway
  345. # [17:12] <foolip> I mean, is it important for it to be unambiguous?
  346. # [17:12] <erlehmann> foolip, yes
  347. # [17:13] <erlehmann> Lachy, latest hack ?
  348. # [17:13] <foolip> because...
  349. # [17:13] <erlehmann> because i want to extract information from pages. i'm looking at the issue from both sides of the fence.
  350. # [17:13] <Lachy> the one where you have to use <div class="figure"> around the figure and style that instead of styling <figure> directly, to avoid having the dt/dd styles leak
  351. # [17:13] <webben> foolip: If you want to provide navigation to the caption or construct a list of figures including the caption, it's important, yes.
  352. # [17:14] <foolip> webben: if the caption is below the img/whatever, why would you want to navigate to it rather than the whole figure?
  353. # [17:14] <Lachy> there's no benefit using <figure> in that way until browsers have support for it, and so we may as well wait for browsers to fix their legend support in a couple of years and implement <figure> properly, rather than trying to hack around the deficiencies with the crappy dt/dd solution
  354. # [17:15] <webben> foolip: In order to read the caption before the figure it captions.
  355. # [17:15] <foolip> webben: screen readers?
  356. # [17:15] <webben> foolip: Well, for example.
  357. # [17:16] <Lachy> (I'm not sure what to do about <details> though. It's not much use till it's implemented anyway, and I'd rather not have JS implementations out there using in ways that could create compat problems for browsers in the future)
  358. # [17:16] <foolip> honestly, sounds like a non-issue in all but edge cases
  359. # [17:17] <foolip> even if the figure isn't an image, it's very likely that the caption is the shortest piece of text
  360. # [17:17] <webben> Is it?
  361. # [17:17] <Lachy> foolip, that sounds like a very bad and unsupported assumption
  362. # [17:17] * webben would prefer not to have to depend on that sort of heuristics.
  363. # [17:18] <Lachy> captions can be surprisingly long
  364. # [17:18] <zcorpan_> <figure>Figure 1. A sample program.<pre>print "Hello world"</pre></figure>
  365. # [17:19] <erlehmann> foolip, explicit is better than implicit. also, i like python.
  366. # [17:20] <foolip> I'd rather have dt/dd be optional and only used in edge cases
  367. # [17:20] <Lachy> for web developers, using <div class="figure"><p class="caption"></p> <img> </div> makes things easier, with no hacks and from that to <figure>/<legend> in the future will be much easier without the hacks being there
  368. # [17:20] <Lachy> s/and from/and switching from/
  369. # [17:20] <webben> it's not even explicit vs implicit; implicit would be an algorithm requiring ua's to treat the child with the shortest text content, at the end or beginning of the element, as a caption.
  370. # [17:21] <webben> I think for the most part, developers are going to want a container for the caption text for styling purposes anyways.
  371. # [17:21] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  372. # [17:21] <foolip> I agree with Lachy, making this mandatory will just have me using <div class="figure"> instead (or willfully ignoring the spec and validator)
  373. # [17:22] <foolip> erlehmann: did you figure out the microdata stuff?
  374. # [17:22] <erlehmann> foolip, i'm on it
  375. # [17:22] <erlehmann> thx
  376. # [17:23] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  377. # [17:23] <foolip> erlehmann: if you want a JS implementation: http://gitorious.org/microdatajs
  378. # [17:25] <foolip> final word on <figure>. Personally, I can never rembember which is which in dl/dt/dd, it's very likely I'd guess wrong 20% of the time, making the document valid but useless for any client assuming that it's used correctly
  379. # [17:26] * foolip would like to see usability testing of this syntax
  380. # [17:26] * foolip would not like to pay for it
  381. # [17:28] <TabAtkins__> Really, foolip? You get dt/dd mixed up?
  382. # [17:28] * TabAtkins__ boggles.
  383. # [17:28] <TabAtkins__> One would think you'd learn quickly, since one indents and the other doesn't.
  384. # [17:28] <zcorpan_> not with the html5 ua style sheet
  385. # [17:28] <zcorpan_> for figure
  386. # [17:29] <foolip> TabAtkins__: really, I try both each time or look it up in the spec (to my defence, I use it very seldomly)
  387. # [17:29] <webben> foolip: Isn't that a problem with DL/DT/DD anyway? It's not specific to figure.
  388. # [17:29] <foolip> webben: yes, it is
  389. # [17:29] <TabAtkins__> Heh, k. I use <dl> pretty often (more often than I should, actually).
  390. # [17:29] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-dgcexmxgxujbpwga)
  391. # [17:29] <zcorpan_> but people will use figure more often and have no experience with dl
  392. # [17:29] <TabAtkins__> zcorpan_: True, but if you've learned it from <dl> you can carry the knowledge over.
  393. # [17:29] <foolip> webben: but that cannot be changed
  394. # [17:29] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  395. # [17:30] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins__: most people haven't
  396. # [17:30] <webben> foolip: it /could/ be changed. It's just probably not worth changing.
  397. # [17:30] <foolip> well, yeah
  398. # [17:31] <webben> doesn't seem to make sense to fix it in only one place.
  399. # [17:31] <ttepass-> My mnemonic is the naming dl = definition list, dt = definition term, dd = definition definition, insane as that is. Sadly that mnemonic breaks on <figure>.
  400. # [17:31] <foolip> webben: how would you fix it though?
  401. # [17:31] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  402. # [17:32] <zcorpan_> dd = digure dontents, dt = digure daption
  403. # [17:32] <zcorpan_> there
  404. # [17:32] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  405. # [17:32] <zcorpan_> er
  406. # [17:32] <zcorpan_> digure taption
  407. # [17:32] <gsnedders> digure? is that like digger?
  408. # [17:32] <foolip> zcorpan_: great, post that to the list and we're done
  409. # [17:33] <webben> foolip: I'd lean towards not reusing dd and dt in figure, personally.
  410. # [17:33] <foolip> webben: I would agree
  411. # [17:33] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  412. # [17:33] <jgraham> I still think that having a new element would be the best solution. But <figure> and <details> are so useful that a suboptimal solution is better than no solution
  413. # [17:33] <ttepass-> We should rename <figure> to <digure>, which is like <figure> but awesomer.
  414. # [17:33] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  415. # [17:34] <foolip> shouldn't a single element (reused or not) for the caption be enough?
  416. # [17:35] <webben> foolip: Legacy parsing constraints aside, I think so - though in practice I think people will often use a second element for styling purposes.
  417. # [17:35] <foolip> webben: probably, but likely not for <img> which is the most common case
  418. # [17:36] <jgraham> <figure><content><img></content><annotation>An image</annotation></figure>
  419. # [17:36] <jgraham> That was not a suggestion btw
  420. # [17:36] <foolip> jgraham: without <content> it could be
  421. # [17:36] <zcorpan_> hey that's not a bad idea
  422. # [17:37] <foolip> why not just use an attribute like <time pubdate>?
  423. # [17:37] <foolip> <figure><img><p caption>An image</p></figure>
  424. # [17:38] <erlehmann> ach bernd
  425. # [17:39] <foolip> if the main problem is that we can't find a free name for an element, I mean...
  426. # [17:40] <webben> works for me. it's not pretty, but seemingly nothing that will work (in the short term) is pretty.
  427. # [17:42] <foolip> has it been proposed and rejected already?
  428. # [17:42] <foolip> it seems most things have
  429. # [17:42] <zcorpan_> i think <p caption> has been suggested on the list, but not really rejected
  430. # [17:43] <zcorpan_> though you couldn't select it in ie6
  431. # [17:43] <foolip> ie6 can't do *[caption] ?
  432. # [17:43] <zcorpan_> but i guess that's not an issue since you could use a class or something
  433. # [17:43] <zcorpan_> nope
  434. # [17:43] <foolip> yes, each workaround for that
  435. # [17:44] * Quits: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.54.23) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  436. # [17:44] <foolip> /s/each/easy/
  437. # [17:45] <jgraham> So in IE6 cou could have <div class=figure><figure><img><p class=caption caption>An image</p></figure></div>
  438. # [17:45] <foolip> jgraham: why the outer wrapping div?
  439. # [17:45] <jgraham> DRY++
  440. # [17:46] <jgraham> foolip: Oh wait that's only needed for <dt>/<dd> isn't it
  441. # [17:46] <foolip> so is there a CSS selector that works in IE6 that could select the first, last or second child elemnet?
  442. # [17:46] <jgraham> OK, add an extra document.createElement("figure") if you don't want the <div>
  443. # [17:47] <foolip> in that case it'd be really easy to style without class="figure" as long as a page doesn't wildly mix captions with different order
  444. # [17:47] <foolip> figures with different order of captions/content that is
  445. # [17:47] <zcorpan_> it doesn't
  446. # [17:47] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  447. # [17:47] <zcorpan_> i mean, there isn't
  448. # [17:48] <danbri> ooh http://www.annodex.net/~silvia/itext/elephant_no_skin_v2.html is great, and a CC-licensed movie to play with too :)
  449. # [17:48] <foolip> anyway, a script-only solution could be used to fix IE6 to, getElementByTagName("figure") and so on...
  450. # [17:49] <foolip> probably good enough until IE6 dies for good
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  463. # [18:44] <yael> Hi, Does HTML5 have a solution for a case that is opposite of ifrmae "sandbox" attribute? Meaning to allow others to include my content in an iframe, but preventing them from manipulating my content, even if we use the same web hosting service?
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  475. # [19:10] <othermaciej> yael: prevent in what way?
  476. # [19:10] <othermaciej> yael: oh - you mean even if your content is same-origin?
  477. # [19:11] <othermaciej> yael: there is no way to do that afaik
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  512. # [20:40] <erlehmann> TabAtkins__, i see now what you were meaning, mea culpa. cheers if you received this, so i do not need to send a mail on the list
  513. # [20:44] <TabAtkins__> No problem, erlehmann. Probably good to be a little less confrontational next time. ^_^ Or hey, hit me up on the chat first to clarify.
  514. # [20:45] <erlehmann> TabAtkins__, well, I really thought you had read my question as hushed as i had your reply ;)
  515. # [20:46] <TabAtkins__> It's cool. Side benefit: I now know who you are on the list.
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  517. # [20:47] <erlehmann> well, "erlehmann" is in my sig
  518. # [20:48] <TabAtkins__> For some reason gmail always tucks your sig into a hidden block, assuming it's quoted.
  519. # [20:49] <erlehmann> well, sigs are separated with "-- ", arent they ?
  520. # [20:50] <jcranmer> -- \n
  521. # [20:51] <erlehmann> right
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  548. # [22:03] <erlehmann> foolip, does that look right ? http://github.com/erlehmann/cc-figure/raw/master/cc-figure-generator.xhtml
  549. # [22:04] <foolip> erlehmann: do you have it served as text/html or do I have to download it? :)
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  551. # [22:04] <erlehmann> foolip, it is github. download it, use it locally.
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  555. # [22:08] <foolip> looking...
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  557. # [22:10] <foolip> http://foolip.org/microdatajs/demo/json.html
  558. # [22:11] <foolip> temporarily pasted the output of it into my JSON extractor
  559. # [22:11] <foolip> looks right to me
  560. # [22:12] <erlehmann> good, then i will continue styling it
  561. # [22:12] <TabAtkins__> Your beautiful picture! It is broken.
  562. # [22:13] <foolip> TabAtkins__: sorry to disappoint you ;)
  563. # [22:13] <TabAtkins__> ;_;
  564. # [22:13] <erlehmann> foolip, what is your page trying to do with it ?
  565. # [22:14] <foolip> erlehmann: it just runs the JSON extraction algorithm on the page and pretty-prints the result
  566. # [22:14] <erlehmann> document.querySelectorAll is not a function
  567. # [22:14] <erlehmann> i see, my browser is too old
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  569. # [22:14] <erlehmann> ff3.0 here
  570. # [22:14] <foolip> hehe, only tested on Opera, basically
  571. # [22:15] * TabAtkins__ steals your pretty-printer, because he couldn't get his to work last Tuesday.
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  573. # [22:15] <foolip> TabAtkins__: it's just json2.js
  574. # [22:15] <foolip> I take no credit
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  576. # [22:15] <erlehmann> foolip, works in webkit.
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  578. # [22:16] <TabAtkins__> Ah, kk. I was trying to write my own, but I kept getting in an infinite-object loop for some reason. It was very strange. And hard to debug, because I had to manually kill FF each time.
  579. # [22:16] <TabAtkins__> Oh and yeah, works in Chrome fine.
  580. # [22:16] <foolip> TabAtkins__: try a browser with an interruptable javascript engine ;)
  581. # [22:16] <TabAtkins__> Yes, probably would be best.
  582. # [22:17] <TabAtkins__> Sudden subject change: I just did my pre-interview with Google! Yay!
  583. # [22:17] <jgraham> TabAtkins__: For what job?
  584. # [22:17] <TabAtkins__> Basically Hixie's job, only for CSS.
  585. # [22:17] <foolip> master of the universe, of course
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  587. # [22:18] <jgraham> foolip: He beat you
  588. # [22:18] <foolip> lol
  589. # [22:18] <TabAtkins__> I WIN AT TYPING.
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  617. # [23:18] <othermaciej> So is anyone going to write a counter-proposal for "keep microdata in the main spec"?
  618. # [23:18] <othermaciej> deadline is in 2 days
  619. # [23:18] <foolip> what happens if we don't?
  620. # [23:18] <othermaciej> or I can extend it if anyone volunteers to do it and names a specific deadline
  621. # [23:19] <othermaciej> chairs will likely post a CfC resolution to split it out
  622. # [23:19] <foolip> won't that just be forced to a vote?
  623. # [23:19] * foolip has not read any of the process documents
  624. # [23:20] <foolip> do you think a counter-proposal is likely to change the outcome of the chairs' decision?
  625. # [23:22] <foolip> and can we expect that the chairs will provide actual arguments for the decision?
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  628. # [23:26] <TabAtkins__> If necessary, I volunteer for it. But I'd like to see the answers to foolip's questions too.
  629. # [23:26] <TabAtkins__> ^^^ othermaciej
  630. # [23:27] <othermaciej> foolip: if the CfC draws no objections, it will stand
  631. # [23:27] <foolip> othermaciej: but it will, and then what?
  632. # [23:28] <othermaciej> foolip: if there are objections that do not have rationale, or have only weak rationale, then we will decide based on which position has the stronger rationale if that seems clear
  633. # [23:28] <othermaciej> foolip: voting would be a last resort if the arguments on both sides seem well-balanced
  634. # [23:29] <foolip> ok, so basically the end result is going to be a vote, because neither side is going to give up
  635. # [23:29] <othermaciej> I think if there is a good rationale for keeping it in, it's worth writing it up now rather than expressing it piecemeal as objections to a consensus resolution
  636. # [23:29] <hober> so what's the difference between emailing rationale for keeping microdata in the spec before the deadline as a counter-proposal vs. afterwards as a CfC objection?
  637. # [23:31] <othermaciej> one possible difference is that if you plan ahead, you may come up with something more coherent
  638. # [23:31] <foolip> sigh
  639. # [23:31] <Hixie_> othermaciej: while we're on the topic, what's the practical difference between an issue getting no change proposals, and an issue getting one change proposal requesting the status quo?
  640. # [23:32] <othermaciej> another possible difference is that it may be more persuasive to observers to write something up front than to object at the last minute
  641. # [23:32] <foolip> this process isn't very spam-proof if it forces people to do lots of work to fend off any proposal
  642. # [23:32] <othermaciej> Hixie_: getting no change proposals, it would be closed without prejudice
  643. # [23:33] <othermaciej> Hixie_: getting one requesting the status quo would keep the issue open, and may result in that Change Proposal getting adopted, unless its existence motivates somebody to write one requesting an actual change
  644. # [23:33] <othermaciej> Hixie_: if a status quo Change Proposal does get adopted though, then it would be a decision of the working group and not merely a closed-without-prejudice situation
  645. # [23:33] <othermaciej> i.e. at that point the issue would be closed with prejudice
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  647. # [23:34] <Hixie_> so if an issue is not getting any change proposals it's better to wait til the last minute and then submit a status-quo change proposal than to not do anything, because that would automatically force a decision to keep the spec as is?
  648. # [23:34] <othermaciej> foolip: I think the chairs will review quality of Change Proposals before insisting on replies - I think the requirement to do a significant chunk of writing is a sufficient spam deterrent
  649. # [23:34] <Hixie_> (assuming one supports the status quo)
  650. # [23:35] <othermaciej> Hixie_: once an issue has a Change Proposal, it stays open until the chairs take some action, with no specific deadline
  651. # [23:35] <Hixie_> oh
  652. # [23:35] <Hixie_> so what's the dec 2 deadline about for microdata?
  653. # [23:35] <othermaciej> Hixie_: so doing that would extend the deadline for anyone else to write a different Change Proposal
  654. # [23:36] <Hixie_> man i miss the days of not having the w3c involved in html5
  655. # [23:36] <foolip> hypothetically, if the RDFa crowd have their way and get microdata removed, I trust the WHATWG would ignore it and keep it in our version of the spec?
  656. # [23:36] <othermaciej> Hixie_: in that case, the chairs have stated an intent to move on if we don't get any alternate proposals by that date
  657. # [23:37] <Hixie_> foolip: it'd be in the complete.html file, for sure
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  659. # [23:37] <Hixie_> foolip: it'd probably not be in html5 unless the w3c versin of html5 starts deviating too much from sanity
  660. # [23:37] <othermaciej> I think the W3C would be happy to publish it as a separate spec (afaik no one has objected to that, not even the TAG), and the WHATWG would be welcome to keep it in the WHATWG copy of the HTML5 main spec if that is their preference
  661. # [23:38] <foolip> TabAtkins__, Hixie_, are either you interested in investing some time writing a counter-proposal?
  662. # [23:39] <TabAtkins__> foolip: Yeah, I'll write one.
  663. # [23:39] <foolip> I can certainly spend some time too, but if you take ownership of the action (or whatever) that'd be great
  664. # [23:39] <othermaciej> my personal expectation is that if it gets split, the browser bits will still get implemented (I certainly want to see it in WebKit) and the default mode of the validator would likely be HTML+SVG+MathML+Microdata
  665. # [23:40] <foolip> are there any other specs which add elements/attributes on top of HTML5 except RDFa?
  666. # [23:40] * Quits: cying_ (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Remote closed the connection)
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  668. # [23:40] <othermaciej> there's the proposed profile spec, though that has not made it to FPWD yet
  669. # [23:40] <foolip> it seems quite a strange way to write specs
  670. # [23:41] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Connection reset by peer)
  671. # [23:41] * cying_ is now known as cying
  672. # [23:41] <othermaciej> HTML5 explicitly allows other specs to add elements and attributes
  673. # [23:41] <foolip> yes I know
  674. # [23:41] <foolip> but so far nothing stable does?
  675. # [23:41] <othermaciej> what counts as "stable"?
  676. # [23:42] <foolip> don't know :)
  677. # [23:42] <othermaciej> a truly stable spec could not depend on HTML5 yet
  678. # [23:42] <othermaciej> if the bar is FPWD, then RDFa is the only example I know of
  679. # [23:42] <foolip> anything except specs that exist only because the feature was rejected from HTML5
  680. # [23:44] * Quits: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@dslb-084-060-074-042.pools.arcor-ip.net) ("?Q")
  681. # [23:44] <othermaciej> arguably SVG and MathML also define elements and attributes that extend HTML5, albeit somewhat involuntarily
  682. # [23:44] <othermaciej> (since HTML5 doesn't define the valid set of elements for those languages)
  683. # [23:44] <foolip> TabAtkins__: so you'll write a full proposal before dec 2 or just take the action to extend the deadline?
  684. # [23:44] <TabAtkins__> Write a full proposal.
  685. # [23:44] <foolip> ok
  686. # [23:45] <TabAtkins__> Since I just want to keep the status quo, nothing complex is necessary.
  687. # [23:45] <foolip> mind if I have a look when you're done and leave feedback?
  688. # [23:45] <TabAtkins__> Sure.
  689. # [23:45] <TabAtkins__> I'll write it tonight and email you.
  690. # [23:45] <othermaciej> most of what you'd need to do is to collect and organize the rationale
  691. # [23:45] <Hixie_> personally i think everything should be in html5 if we think it's good, including microdata and rdfa and profile="" and version=""... i just don't think rdfa, profile="", and version="" are good. :-)
  692. # [23:46] <foolip> should we spend time rebutting the points made by the other proposal?
  693. # [23:46] * foolip tries to find the proposal
  694. # [23:46] <othermaciej> that would be useful information, sure
  695. # [23:46] <TabAtkins__> I don't think we need to do so directly, though certainly pointing our rationales in those directions would be good.
  696. # [23:46] <foolip> certainly
  697. # [23:47] <othermaciej> you don't have to make it point-counterpoint but if you feel it makes any strong arguments for which you have a rebuttal, then it would be good to say so
  698. # [23:47] * Quits: cpharmston (n=cpharmst@68.48.43.198) ("Leaving.")
  699. # [23:47] <othermaciej> btw http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/0773.html
  700. # [23:48] <foolip> thanks!
  701. # [23:48] <othermaciej> and earlier thread here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/0420.html
  702. # [23:48] <othermaciej> (that thread included a number of arguments both pro and con)
  703. # [23:48] <foolip> othermaciej: what mail client do you use to keep organized?
  704. # [23:49] * foolip can't ever find anything that fast
  705. # [23:49] <TabAtkins__> I suspect he's got a listing of issues. ^_^
  706. # [23:49] <foolip> clever, you!
  707. # [23:55] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-qsorjphqwgxsbkia) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  708. # [23:55] <othermaciej> foolip: I use Mail.app, the search is pretty good
  709. # [23:55] <othermaciej> but I also made an organized issues list
  710. # [23:56] <othermaciej> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
  711. # [23:56] <foolip> thanks
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  714. # Session Close: Tue Dec 01 00:00:00 2009

The end :)