/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  25. # [01:03] <foolip> TabAtkins__: just sent you a long mail
  26. # [01:03] <TabAtkins__> foolip: Yeah, just read it. thanks!
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  28. # [01:04] <foolip> it's past bedtime here, but I'll get to reading your reply tomorrow
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  30. # [01:07] <TabAtkins__> kk
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  33. # [01:34] <Hixie_> woah, the w3c archives archive across months now
  34. # [01:34] <Hixie_> sweet
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  36. # [01:35] <Hixie_> othermaciej: can i link to http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ChangeProposalTemplate from http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html ?
  37. # [01:35] <othermaciej> Hixie_: sure
  38. # [01:35] <othermaciej> Hixie_: that would be convenient and helpful in fact
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  41. # [01:44] <Hixie_> done
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  47. # [02:05] <othermaciej> Hixie_: have you had a chance to look at the I18N WG's proposal for multiple languages in meta, or Larry's for URLs?
  48. # [02:06] <othermaciej> Hixie_: no urgent deadline on those but your input could potentially save time if it allows dispensing with the formal bureaucracy
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  50. # [02:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: I note that the spec says "The presence of a name attribute on an a element, if its value is not the empty string." .. so what should happen for the case of <a name=''> -- report it as an error?
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  52. # [02:16] <Hixie_> othermaciej: do they have bugs filed?
  53. # [02:17] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: context?
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  55. # [02:18] <othermaciej> Hixie_: Larry's thing is in the form of a Change Proposal
  56. # [02:19] <othermaciej> Hixie_: the I18N guys suggested a change in an informal way and said they talked to you about it
  57. # [02:19] <othermaciej> Hixie_: would you like that in the form of a bug?
  58. # [02:19] <Hixie_> i believe everything we spoke about in the i18n group has a bug already
  59. # [02:19] <othermaciej> Larry's thing has a bug as well as a Change Proposal I think (though the bug references a dated version)
  60. # [02:19] <Hixie_> right now my priority is getting the webapps draft to LC
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  63. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: immediate context is http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=685 .. I'm trying to figure out what would be best to have validator.nu report for the case of <a name=''> . It currently just says, "Bad value for attribute name on element a: An ID must not be the empty string." My question is, what's the intent of the spec in distinguishing between the cases of <a name="foo"> and <a name=""> ? Is it useful for conforman
  64. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> ce checkers to report something different for those cases?
  65. # [02:26] <Hixie_> <a name="foo"> should warn that name="" is deprecated. <a name=""> should just say name="" is invalid, I think.
  66. # [02:26] <Hixie_> s/that name="" is deprecated/that id="" is considered a more reliable way of giving fragment identifier targets/
  67. # [02:27] <Hixie_> <a name=""> should be an error because these obsolete features are only allowed to ease transition, and there's nothing to transition if the attribute's value is "".
  68. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> OK, that makes sense
  69. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> for the <a name=""> case, v.nu now reports the warning, "The name attribute is obsolete. Consider putting an id attribute on the nearest container instead."
  70. # [02:28] <Hixie_> (why the nearest container?)
  71. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> so for the <a name=""> , we can have it report the error and also report that same warning
  72. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: I dunno. That's verbatim from your spec text.
  73. # [02:28] <Hixie_> that works too
  74. # [02:29] <Hixie_> the term "nearest container" is not in html5
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  76. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> The logic of also reporting the warning is that somebody first gets the error, then changes their content to <a name=foo> and then gets a warning about, then that's just annoying -- they are going to say, you should have told me that the first time.
  77. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: hmm, I got it from somewhere.
  78. # [02:30] * MikeSmith goes to look at current draft
  79. # [02:30] <Hixie_> agreed, the text for name="" should just say 'use id=""'
  80. # [02:30] <Hixie_> '...and give it a value!'
  81. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> erp, maybe I got that "nearest container" bit from Anne's HTML4-HTML5 differences doc
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  83. # [03:09] <TabAtkins__> MikeSmith: The 'nearest container' bit still makes sense, as it was very common to just use an empty <a name> at the top of a container to target it.
  84. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins__: OK
  85. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> so I guess it's fine to keep it in there and the wording can be refined later if needed
  86. # [03:10] <TabAtkins__> Yeah.
  87. # [03:11] <Hixie_> maybe it's referring to the case of an empty <a name=""></a> ?
  88. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> yeah, I reckon so
  89. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> that seems like the most common way it's actually seen in existing content
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  93. # [03:23] <erlehmann> Hixie_, is it possible that the figure construct eventually will be changed back again or are all arguments coming in on the list now re-hashes of ye olde conflict ?
  94. # [03:24] <Hixie_> othermaciej would be a better person to answer that question
  95. # [03:25] * othermaciej assumes erlehmann was asking about the arguments on the whatwg list
  96. # [03:25] <othermaciej> since there are not any coming in on public-html afaik
  97. # [03:26] <erlehmann> othermaciej, did you inherit the honors of supreme HTML5 commander from Hixie somehow ? ;)
  98. # [03:26] <erlehmann> because i mean the whatwg list.
  99. # [03:27] <erlehmann> hmm, better would be "i'm meaning", would it ?
  100. # [03:27] <Hixie_> oh, i thought the discussion was on a w3c bug
  101. # [03:27] <othermaciej> there's different discussion on a w3c bug
  102. # [03:27] <Hixie_> on the whatwg list, rehashing old arguments without introducing new data will not have any effect
  103. # [03:27] <erlehmann> oh, sorry
  104. # [03:27] <Hixie_> i haven't checked to see if recent threads introduce new data
  105. # [03:27] <othermaciej> someone suggested restricting the content model for <figure>
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  107. # [03:28] <othermaciej> based on what I think were originally incorrect assumptions (though I am not sure why the argument still continues)
  108. # [03:29] <erlehmann> i am not sure too. dt / dd may be ugly, but it gets the job done.
  109. # [03:29] <Hixie_> i need to get through this webapps stuff then i'll be able to do a better job of keeping on threads
  110. # [03:29] <Hixie_> if anyone sees anyone being even remotely rude on the whatwg list, please let me know asap
  111. # [03:30] <othermaciej> the recent figure bug was orthogonal to dt/dd I think
  112. # [03:30] <erlehmann> oh, i was remotely rude today.
  113. # [03:30] <erlehmann> misunderstood TabAtkins, but we reconciled pretty fast.
  114. # [03:31] <erlehmann> othermaciej, what was it ? browsers aren't doing strange things with the dom again, are they ?
  115. # [03:32] <othermaciej> erlehmann: I'm actually not entirely sure what the motivation for the bug was
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  117. # [03:33] <erlehmann> bet aesthetical reasons, hehe
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  119. # [03:33] * Hixie_ is still unsure how to handle some of the htmlwg feedback (especially shelley's "remove XYZ" bugs)
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  124. # [04:03] <TabAtkins__> Restricting <figure>'s content model won't work. A common use of figures in, frex, academic journals is to hold tables.
  125. # [04:04] <webben> That bug would benefit from documentation of examples.
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  129. # [04:07] <TabAtkins__> It's possible I'm misunderstanding the purpose of <figure>, of course. My impression of it, though, was for content that is part of the main content, but whos exact location within the content is not important.
  130. # [04:07] <TabAtkins__> That is, after all, what figures are. They're referred to, and are part of articles, but where in the article they're actually placed doesn't matter.
  131. # [04:08] <TabAtkins__> This is in opposition to <aside>, which is content that is only tangentially related to the main content, and could be removed without changing the meaning of the main content.
  132. # [04:08] <webben> that's part of what figures are.
  133. # [04:08] <webben> well, actually, I wouldn't define them like that
  134. # [04:09] <webben> often the main content requires the figure - the only thing that allows them to be removed is the reference that points to them.
  135. # [04:09] <TabAtkins__> Alternate conversation: Can anyone think of *any* sane reason why I'm being given a forbidden error when trying to run this .pl file, but if I change it to a .txt or .php file it works fine?
  136. # [04:09] <TabAtkins__> webben: True, but it's also very common practice to do so - to remove it from the main flow and insert a reference.
  137. # [04:10] <TabAtkins__> The point is that they represent additional data that is not part of the flow of the article.
  138. # [04:10] <TabAtkins__> But is still *part* of the article and is necessary for full understanding of it.
  139. # [04:10] <webben> I'm still not sure that's right.
  140. # [04:11] <webben> depends what "flow" refers to - they can be entirely essential to the flow of ideas.
  141. # [04:11] <TabAtkins__> Well, my definition happens to correspond pretty exactly to the current spec text, luckily enough. ^_^
  142. # [04:12] <TabAtkins__> (I didn't actually realize it was that close.)
  143. # [04:12] <erlehmann> TabAtkins__, messed up .htaccess
  144. # [04:12] <erlehmann> ??
  145. # [04:13] <TabAtkins__> erlehmann: Not that I can *tell*. In fact, I have just *added* an htaccess, as there wasn't one there before. All it contains is an "Options ExecCGI" line.
  146. # [04:13] <erlehmann> well, then …
  147. # [04:13] <erlehmann> no idea ^_^
  148. # [04:13] <TabAtkins__> (That would be a sane reason, though, although it's wrong.)
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  151. # [04:15] <TabAtkins__> webben: Sometimes captioned images are indeed part of the normal flow of an article, I agree, and these are well-served by <figure> as well.
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  154. # [04:21] <webben> but anyway I more meant - Shelley's claim is allowing tables and code listings and other text in "figure" is confusing because that's not what people call figures. If there's evidence to the contrary (as seems likely to me) would be good to cite specific examples. (I see only vague references in the ticket.)
  155. # [04:22] <TabAtkins__> I can go grab textbooks off my shelf that have code samples as figures.
  156. # [04:23] <webben> here's a specific example: http://tinyurl.com/ylrv4qe
  157. # [04:23] <TabAtkins__> Heh, that works.
  158. # [04:24] <TabAtkins__> And here's a table used as a figure: http://books.google.com/books?id=Fsz234KPVz8C&pg=PT120&dq=%22Figure+5%22&ei=I4wUS8raFJjQNPHJ2ZQL#v=onepage&q=%22Figure%205%22&f=false
  159. # [04:24] <TabAtkins__> I'll add these to the bugs.
  160. # [04:25] <webben> here's another data table labelled as a figure: http://tinyurl.com/yfksktb
  161. # [04:27] <TabAtkins__> Darn, I should have waited. I just submitted it.
  162. # [04:27] <TabAtkins__> Still, it takes 30 seconds to find many examples.
  163. # [04:27] <TabAtkins__> So saying that using tables in figures will cause confusion is silly.
  164. # [04:28] <webben> or at least, saying that people don't put tables in "figures" is empirically false.
  165. # [04:29] <webben> (it might be a real practice, but still be confusing I guess)
  166. # [04:29] <TabAtkins__> True, but it's common enough that I highly doubt there is any confusion.
  167. # [04:37] <TabAtkins__> Okay, what are the reasons the cgi-bin folder on a linux box would be forbidden? It has 755 permissions, and has both owner and group set to the values specified in apache2.conf
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  184. # [05:25] <Sirisian> When you submit a review comment in the HTML 5 draft do people actually read those? Is that the most effective way to give feedback?
  185. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: you mean submitting it using the built-in form in the whatwg version of the spec?
  186. # [05:33] <Sirisian> yeah
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  189. # [05:36] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: yeah, people do read all those. When you submit a comment that way, it actually causes a new issue to be opened in the W3C bugzilla
  190. # [05:37] <Sirisian> yeah I saw that. I added a comment about the canvas element. Just wanted to make sure that wasn't like a "this is for spelling mistakes" kind of thing
  191. # [05:38] <Sirisian> MikeSmith, so is it just one person in their spare time "Ian" that goes through and makes the changes?
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  193. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: so you can also submit a comment directly using http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG
  194. # [05:39] <Sirisian> yeah I saw that
  195. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: Ian is Hixie_ and yeah he is the one who actually makes the changes to the spec
  196. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> to that spec
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  198. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> but he does it full time, not spare time
  199. # [05:40] <Sirisian> ah cool. I like that idea.
  200. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> there are quite a number of other people who follow all the bugzilla issues
  201. # [05:40] <Sirisian> yeah I noticed the issue rating system and such
  202. # [05:42] <Sirisian> Also this might seem silly, but is there something similar to the HTML 5 draft but for javascript and how browsers implement and interact with it? I've noticed over the years that browsers seems to use it slightly differently for input related things especially the mouse.
  203. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: not for Javascript itself, not that I know of
  204. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> but for existing APIs that get exposed to Javascript, there is some documentation in HTML5 that addresses improving interoperability of some of those
  205. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> and there's also the beginning of a "Web DOM Core" draft that attempts to document more
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  207. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core
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  209. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> but if you mean differences in the way that browsers handle Javascript other than how they expose standard APIs, then that's more an issue of either bugs in particular browsers, or bugs/ambiguities in the Javascript spec that need to be fixed
  210. # [05:49] <Sirisian> nah not so much dom, but I was thinking of the mouse input and the event model associated with it. That's a good idea.
  211. # [05:49] * Sirisian searches for some kind of spec
  212. # [05:49] <erlehmann> if anyone wants to test my wordpress plugin generating microdata licensing info I coded in the last few hours (thanks, foolip) => http://github.com/erlehmann/cc-figure
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  215. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: as far at the event model, you might want to look at the DOM3 Events draft
  216. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html
  217. # [06:12] <Sirisian> ah thank you
  218. # [06:12] <Sirisian> I wasn't sure if it would be in the Dom stuff
  219. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> that document in part attempts to document how event handling actually works in current browsers
  220. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> so-called DOM Level Zero
  221. # [06:14] <Sirisian> Why?
  222. # [06:15] <Sirisian> Shouldn't it just list what the browsers should do?
  223. # [06:15] <Sirisian> Or is that what you meant?
  224. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: there would not be much point in it listing what browsers should do if browser instead actually did something different
  225. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> the DOM Level 0 stuff is basically what browsers have always done but that was never actually specified
  226. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> but there are some differences among browsers with regard to some of it
  227. # [06:22] <MikeSmith> so the value is speccing it at this point is that anybody developing a new browser would not need to reverse engineer it
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  231. # [06:24] <Sirisian> Why is the spec so vague about the mouse stuff? Even the default action stuff is extremely vague. No wonder IE handles the 3 mouse buttons as 7 buttons and why opera has no prevent default in middle mouse or right mouse button (speaking of the context menu). It's not even defined. http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-Events-MouseEvent-button talk about vague
  232. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: the spec is still in development. If you find things it doesn't address but should, the best place to comment is on the public-webapps@w3.org mailing list
  233. # [06:26] <Sirisian> I don't do mailing lists. I just lose track of messages and get confused.
  234. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: OK, you can comment through bugzilla
  235. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=WebAppsWG
  236. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> and select component "DOM3 Events"
  237. # [06:35] <Sirisian> Thank you for being pacient with :)
  238. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: "enlightened self interest" .. the easier it is for people to review and comment, the greater the chance of getting more good feedback and possibility of improvements
  239. # [06:40] <Sirisian> then why did they use bugzilla?
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  242. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: point taken
  243. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> (if your point is that bugzilla is not an easy thing for most people to use)
  244. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> but some people would rather submit through bugzilla than join a mailing list
  245. # [06:42] <Sirisian> yeah that was my point. It took me a while to figure out how to view all of the issue. Someone told me about the product:html thing though and it made things easier.
  246. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> perhaps more specs should have the built-in comment form like the HTML5 spec does
  247. # [06:43] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@216.239.45.130)
  248. # [06:43] <Sirisian> yeah that's a clever setup they have there.
  249. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> they is Hixie, in this case
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  251. # [06:45] <Hixie_> yeah i like it
  252. # [06:45] <Hixie_> we should do that more
  253. # [06:45] * Hixie_ is now known as Hixie
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  255. # [06:54] <othermaciej> I only wish the built-in comment form had a way for people to identify themselves if they choose
  256. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, me too
  257. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> though some people have just taken to including their name or initials in the text of the comment
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  260. # [07:11] <Hixie> why does the originator matter?
  261. # [07:11] <Hixie> i ignore it anyway when dealing with feedback
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  263. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie: it matters on that some people would like to actually identify themselves when submitting a comment
  264. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know they could just use bugzilla directly to do that
  265. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> but doing it from the built-in comment form is more convenient
  266. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> having it be an optional second input field in the form would seem to be the best of both worlds
  267. # [07:26] <Sirisian> What's that feature in browsers when you middle click? autoscroll?
  268. # [07:27] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i see that they do, but why do they do?
  269. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> Sirisian: my pointing device doesn't have a middle click
  270. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I guess in part to save the trouble of posting a comment to the bug later and needing to say, "I'm the one who submitted this comment."
  271. # [07:28] <Sirisian> I almost did that.
  272. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> and/or so that others know clearly who to contact if they want to get clarification outside of bugzilla -- e.g., on IRC
  273. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> so if Sirisian files a bug and I see it, I can ping him here to say, "Hey Sirisian, about that bug you just posted, I have a quick question.."
  274. # [07:30] * Joins: Mannerisky (n=manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net)
  275. # [07:30] <Hixie> ah
  276. # [07:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: when I see an IP address comment that's insightful, sometimes I wonder who it is
  277. # [07:30] <Hixie> well if anyone wants to submit a patch to do something different, i'm happy to let them have the code :-)
  278. # [07:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't make IP address comments myself, because I want myself and others to be able to find them later
  279. # [07:31] <Hixie> (personally though i don't really care who wrote the comment :-) )
  280. # [07:33] <Sirisian> Hixie, so you're really the person that reads all the issues and makes the changes?
  281. # [07:33] <Hixie> yup
  282. # [07:33] <Sirisian> How did you get picked?
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  289. # [07:45] <Hixie> Sirisian: i volunteered
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  291. # [07:46] <Sirisian> ah cool
  292. # [07:48] <Hixie> should i call the web database spec Web SQL Database, Web SQL Database API, Web SQLite Database, or something else?
  293. # [07:55] <nessy> not SQLite - the others sound ok
  294. # [07:56] * fishd_ is now known as fishd
  295. # [07:57] <Mannerisky> for what it's worth, I think WSQLDAPI is a long-enough acronym
  296. # [07:59] <Hixie> i went for Web SQL Database
  297. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> good
  298. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> I think the API part isn't necessary in spec titles if the Web qualifier it in the title
  299. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> e.g., Geolocation API could well be "Web Geolocation"
  300. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> maybe
  301. # [08:02] <Hixie> i just stick "Web" on all my specs so that they start with a W instead of an X
  302. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  303. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> just a long as you don't start starting them with "WS-", please
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  308. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> one feature that's in git and mercurial that I will I really had with subversion is the way you can interactively select specific parts of changes to commit
  309. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> "git add --patch" and "hg record"
  310. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: another good reason for moving to mercurial or git ↑
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  317. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie: did the spec previously recommend doing "a img, img[usemap] { border: 0; }" in place of using the border attribute?
  318. # [08:59] <Hixie> i don't think html5 ever recommended specific CSS rules
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  320. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> hmm, this is another case of I wonder where it came from then -- validator.nu warning about it advises to do "a img, img[usemap] { border: 0; }" instead
  321. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> similar to the advice about putting an id on nearest container instead of a/@name
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  323. # [09:01] <Sirisian> heh. https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/SearchResults.aspx?FeedbackType=2&Status=1&Scope=0&SortOrder=15&TabView=1
  324. # [09:01] <Sirisian> number 1 bug is that the canvas tag doesn't work.
  325. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> I guess hsivonen included that advice in the initial version of the warnings-reporter when he added it
  326. # [09:05] * jgraham grumbles about getting 36 bugzilla emails in 9 hours, all from the same bug
  327. # [09:05] <foolip> w3c spec bug, perchance?
  328. # [09:06] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  329. # [09:06] <Hixie> this is a terrible article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_technology
  330. # [09:06] <jgraham> foolip: Indeed
  331. # [09:08] <foolip> not that I'm a masochist, but is there a way to follow those bugs with manually CC:ing yourself on all those which interest you?
  332. # [09:08] <foolip> er, manually adding yourself to the CC list rather
  333. # [09:08] <jgraham> Yeah, ou can do that from the bugzilla page
  334. # [09:09] <foolip> jgraham: care to link to that particular flame war for my breakfeast entertainment?
  335. # [09:09] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8404
  336. # [09:10] <jgraham> Not sure if it is a flame war, I haven't actually read any of the mail yet
  337. # [09:10] <foolip> go <figure>
  338. # [09:10] <Hixie> can anyone find a reference to the term "long polling" before the HTTP technique?
  339. # [09:11] <Hixie> did someone just make that up for HTTP for no good reason? or does it actually mean something?
  340. # [09:11] <foolip> I thought it quite specifially referred to keeping HTTP connections open
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  346. # [09:33] <Sirisian> I've never heard of it used except in the context of the HTTP thing. It's a common practice. I've used it before since it allows you to communicate back and forth with a client using ajax and pretend like it's a socket. Then again you can only keep the connection open for 30 seconds.
  347. # [09:34] <Hixie> if the term was invented for HTTP specifically, then "long polling" is a pretty dumb name for it
  348. # [09:35] <Hixie> then again, the web is full of dumb names
  349. # [09:35] <Hixie> DHTML, REST, AJAX, Comet...
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  358. # [10:03] <Philip`> About identifying bugs: I do it so that I can later search for the bugs I filed and see if they were addressed satisfactorily or not
  359. # [10:05] <Hixie> yeah, but that just needs a unique string, it doesn't need an identifier
  360. # [10:08] * Quits: murr4y (n=murray@245.84-49-171.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  361. # [10:09] <Philip`> A unique string is an identifier :-)
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  363. # [10:11] <Hixie> i mean, a person identifier
  364. # [10:11] <Hixie> that is recognisable as such
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  369. # [10:26] <gsnedders> We need some spec for normalizing web addresses
  370. # [10:27] <gsnedders> As there are limits to how much percent encoding normalization you can do
  371. # [10:27] <gsnedders> You can't, for example, normalize pct-encoded & and = without breaking sites
  372. # [10:28] <Hixie> when would this be done?
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  374. # [10:28] <gsnedders> Comparing IRIs for caching purposes, for example
  375. # [10:28] <Hixie> seems like something the IRI spec should define; send mail to larry
  376. # [10:30] <Lachy_> gsnedders, how would it break sites if it's being done for comparison purposes?
  377. # [10:31] <gsnedders> Lachy_: You use the cache for the wrong page due to over-normalizing
  378. # [10:31] <gsnedders> So you display the wrong page to the user
  379. # [10:31] <gsnedders> Which seems _really_ bad.
  380. # [10:32] <Lachy_> ok, can you give an example of over normalising?
  381. # [10:32] <gsnedders> http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/mpr/.eventsfeed?cat=Rock%2C%20Roots%2C%20%26%20Other&start=10122009&end=12312010 --- decode the escaped ampersands in there, and you get a different resource
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  383. # [10:33] <Lachy_> ah, ok
  384. # [10:33] <gsnedders> If you normalize before cache lookup/save, that can break badly.
  385. # [10:34] <Lachy_> normalising should never decode ampersands, so I don't get why you're calling it over-normalising. But I get what you mean anyway.
  386. # [10:34] <gsnedders> Lachy_: Why shouldn't it?
  387. # [10:34] <gsnedders> Lachy_: ampersands are just another character in the query string
  388. # [10:35] <gsnedders> Lachy_: Point me to the bit in the spec that says I shouldn't normalize pct-encoded ampersands.
  389. # [10:35] <Lachy_> well, on the server side, I guess.
  390. # [10:35] <Lachy_> on the client side, you'd never want %26 to be wrongly interpreted as & in a query sting
  391. # [10:36] <Lachy_> outside of the query string, decoding it would be fine though
  392. # [10:37] <Lachy_> similar issue with %3F for ?
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  401. # [11:08] * Philip` is disappointed to find that <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC “-//WHATWG//HTML 20100401"> is almost but not quite quirky, by the rules in http://philip.html5.org/docs/quirks.txt
  402. # [11:09] <Philip`> s/“/"/
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  404. # [11:10] <Philip`> (Disappointed because it was almost a practical demonstration of why making up random strings is a bad idea)
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  457. # [15:53] <Philip`> Someone less lazy than me should suggest proposing <meta name="designed-for-specs" content="http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/"> or content="http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-html5-20090825/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-rdfa-in-html-20091015/" etc
  458. # [15:53] <Philip`> instead of trying to squeeze the information needlessly into the most complex syntactic feature of HTML5 with the most compatibility problems
  459. # [15:54] <TabAtkins> Okay.
  460. # [15:55] <TabAtkins> I can't play this "You're wrong", "That's your opinion", "You're wrong that it's an opinion" game with Shelley for too long.
  461. # [15:55] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Can you stop filling up that mailbox
  462. # [15:56] <Philip`> It seems unlikely to be productive to say "You're wrong" to people
  463. # [15:56] <TabAtkins> Philip`: And when they're actually wrong? And keep saying things that are wrong, and using those wrong things as justification for their arguments?
  464. # [15:56] <Philip`> Better to just state your arguments and reasoning, and trust that reasonable people will agree with you if you're right
  465. # [15:56] <TabAtkins> It's really hard to see what one can do except point out, "Uh, yeah, here are examples proving you wrong."
  466. # [15:56] <Philip`> (and trust that reasonable people will determine what goes in the spec)
  467. # [15:57] <jgraham> Philip`: It's not clear that the processed is biased in that way
  468. # [15:57] <jgraham> *process
  469. # [15:57] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Sorry, but to be fair, I'm not the largest source of emails on that thread.
  470. # [15:58] * Philip` looks at the thread again
  471. # [15:58] <Philip`> Oh, Shelley already basically said what I just said
  472. # [15:58] <TabAtkins> Philip`: It's just impossible to actually *argue* with someone who is saying things that are demonstrably wrong. If you don't correct them, then *at best* you're shouting over them and hoping to reach the choir.
  473. # [15:59] <annevk> You could just ignore it
  474. # [15:59] <Philip`> So don't waste so much effort trying to argue with them :-)
  475. # [15:59] * jgraham has now got 56 messages in 18 hours or so
  476. # [16:00] <Philip`> s/argue with/respond to/
  477. # [16:00] <jgraham> s/18/20
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  479. # [16:00] <jgraham> From that bug
  480. # [16:02] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, I could. But then I'd have to address the arguments later on when they start wielding the process like a hacksaw. And in the meantime it's possible that people are swayed over to the wrong side due to them not realizing that there are false arguments being employed.
  481. # [16:04] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You may as well ignore all bugs. Eventually the controversal ones will all get turned into change proposals at which point they have to be unignored
  482. # [16:05] <jgraham> Nothing you say upfront can possibly prevent that happening
  483. # [16:05] <TabAtkins> Can quirks mode trigger parsing changes? That is, can a page produce a different DOM based on which mode it's in?
  484. # [16:05] <annevk> yes
  485. # [16:05] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Yes, there is one difference
  486. # [16:05] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Sigh, I guess you're right. But they're Wrong On The Internet.
  487. # [16:05] <TabAtkins> annevk, jgraham: k thanks.
  488. # [16:06] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Suggestion made.
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  490. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, the process doesn't require anyone to talk to each other. If the group doesn't come to consensus, you just have to write the proposals to convince the chairs, as far as I can tell.
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  492. # [16:11] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Sure, it doesn't require it. But discussion is the whole point of having a list.
  493. # [16:11] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Thanks
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  495. # [16:12] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, well, no. Getting a better spec is the point of having the list. Discussion is only a means to an end.
  496. # [16:12] <TabAtkins> Sorry, I'll clarify. Discussion is typically a vital part of producing a better spec.
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  498. # [16:22] <AryehGregor> Some types of discussion are. Some discussion is just noise.
  499. # [16:25] <daedb> I can't believe there's actually a suggestion to allow iframe in figure, but not directly allow tables/code/etc in there...
  500. # [16:27] <annevk> currently those are allowed
  501. # [16:28] <daedb> I know, I'm reading the bug that wants to disallow them
  502. # [16:28] <annevk> oh that
  503. # [16:30] <zcorpan_> is "-//H//T M//L" a legal FPI?
  504. # [16:30] <daedb> I just stared in disbelief when I saw "another option would be to allow iframe"...
  505. # [16:31] <annevk> zcorpan_, does it matter?
  506. # [16:32] <zcorpan_> in other news the secret xml-stylesheet draft will hopefully soon be published as a FPWD
  507. # [16:32] <Philip`> daedb: Where was <iframe> suggested? (I only remember <object>)
  508. # [16:33] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: I think not, but I haven't a copy of the spec here
  509. # [16:33] <Philip`> Oh, in the bug
  510. # [16:33] <daedb> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8404#c28 "Another option is to add one more element: iframe"
  511. # [16:33] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: why? because "L" is not a legal language tag?
  512. # [16:34] <zcorpan_> or is "NONSGML" an allowed string and "T" is not?
  513. # [16:35] * AryehGregor wants to see what happens when some of these Change Proposals actually get past the bureaucratic machinery and get resolved
  514. # [16:35] <Philip`> I usually use "figure" to express the semantics "this would cross over a column/page break if I inserted it inline"
  515. # [16:35] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: http://xml.coverpages.org/tauber-fpi.html
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  518. # [16:38] <zcorpan_> public_text_class =
  519. # [16:38] <zcorpan_> CAPACITY | CHARSET | DOCUMENT | DTD | ELEMENTS | ENTITIES | LPD | NONSGML | NOTATION | SHORTREF | SUBDOC | SYNTAX | TEXT
  520. # [16:38] <Philip`> Use "-////TEXT HT//ML"
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  522. # [16:40] <zcorpan_> Maltese?
  523. # [16:40] <Philip`> Malayalam
  524. # [16:40] <Philip`> obviously
  525. # [16:40] <zcorpan_> ah
  526. # [16:40] <Philip`> Oh, how confusing
  527. # [16:41] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/IG/ert/iso639.htm puts ml next to Maltese in the 3-letter section
  528. # [16:41] <Philip`> but it's MT in the 2-letter section
  529. # [16:42] <Philip`> Guess that's a bug in the W3C page
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  532. # [16:45] <Philip`> Anyway, I guess it doesn't matter since Maltese and Malayalam are equally accurate descriptions of the markup language
  533. # [16:53] <foolip> AryehGregor: had any luck writing a change proposal of your own?
  534. # [16:53] <AryehGregor> foolip, no, nothing much I want changed that the editor doesn't.
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  536. # [16:54] <foolip> AryehGregor: I mean the counter-proposal, the "empty change proposal" as it were
  537. # [16:54] <AryehGregor> I haven't tried writing one yet.
  538. # [16:54] <foolip> k
  539. # [16:54] <AryehGregor> I've thought of it, but I don't have the time to do it justice, and am not really the most qualified person on any given issue that I've seen.
  540. # [16:55] <foolip> sorry, I'm being a retard, I mistook you for TabAtkins just ehn
  541. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> I'm mostly interested in what will happen when people figure out that the HTMLWG is more or less just a dictatorship of the chairs instead of the editor, in the end. Just with a lot more politics and bureaucracy.
  542. # [16:55] <Philip`> foolip: Easy mistake to make, since they're both CamelCase names
  543. # [16:56] <foolip> Philip`: exactly!
  544. # [16:56] <TabAtkins> foolip: Sorry, I was at work until 10pm last night raging against this server. I"m doing final troubleshooting with our network admin before we wipe the fucker and start over.
  545. # [16:56] <TabAtkins> It's planned for lunch today instead.
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  547. # [16:56] * pmuellr_ is now known as pmuellr
  548. # [16:56] <foolip> haha, we can always request a new deadline in a week if things are too busy
  549. # [16:56] <TabAtkins> If necessary, I'll do that. But I think I can get it out today.
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  555. # [19:01] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  556. # [19:01] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  560. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> I'm still not sure what it is that Lief is suggesting with this "caption" idea.
  561. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> In his examples he seems to just be renaming <figure> to <cap> and then throwing in <object> for some reason.
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  572. # [19:38] <foolip> <hascaption><img><caption></hascaption> :)
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  577. # [19:44] <gsnedders> IE creates a single tag for <span<span> right?
  578. # [19:44] <gsnedders> s/tag/element/
  579. # [19:45] <gsnedders> Whereas Firefox and WebKit create two (and Opera agrees with IE)
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  599. # [20:27] <hober> TabAtkins: I'm usually unsure of what Lief is proposing in his emails, on any subject...
  600. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> I suppose that's true.
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  602. # [20:37] <othermaciej> Lief often says that I proposed something which to me seems counter to the statements I actually made
  603. # [20:38] <Philip`> s/Lief/Leif/
  604. # [20:39] <gsnedders> You need the g flag.
  605. # [20:41] <Philip`> No I don't, these are magic regexps
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  619. # [21:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: You still there?
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  625. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Dammit, perl is hard to learn when you're doing so by debugging a mildly complex working program.
  626. # [21:44] <Philip`> Easier than debugging a program that doesn't work
  627. # [21:45] <Dashiva> I didn't know it was possible to write perl that's only mildly complex
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  629. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> This is a pretty straightforward cgi processing a form and sending an email. It's only mildly complex.
  630. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> I also find it strange that when a cgi script fails you get a "file not found" message from apache.
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  633. # [21:57] <charles_> Is there any way to get the data of a media element in javascript (html5)?
  634. # [21:57] <charles_> Something like getDataURL from canvas??
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  636. # [21:59] <Philip`> charles_: You could draw a <video> onto a <canvas> and then use toDataURL
  637. # [21:59] <Sonja> hullo
  638. # [21:59] <Philip`> though I'm not sure whether it'd return the current frame or not
  639. # [21:59] <charles_> Philip, thanks but had audio in mind
  640. # [21:59] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  641. # [21:59] <Philip`> No way to access that
  642. # [22:00] <charles_> Seems to be lacking from standard and what if you wished to make an audio editor??
  643. # [22:00] <Philip`> There have been discussions about creating some kind of 'audio canvas' for editing
  644. # [22:00] <charles_> Philip, there are other uses as well
  645. # [22:00] <Philip`> but nothing concrete yet
  646. # [22:00] <Dashiva> The usual way is to spec simple features first, and return and add complex ones later
  647. # [22:01] <charles_> THANKS, I'd love to know about it and will keep an eye open
  648. # [22:01] <Sonja> will html5 make it possible for me to write a little roguelike browser game with Ruby without needing to use Flash or othetr RIA?
  649. # [22:01] <charles_> For me the toDataURL would be all I need
  650. # [22:02] <charles_> Sonja, as a game developer, I'd say YES
  651. # [22:02] <Sonja> cool
  652. # [22:02] <Sonja> the person in control of html5 is Ian Hickson, right?
  653. # [22:02] <charles_> Sonja, canvas for the well canvas and audio for sound effects
  654. # [22:02] <Dashiva> Sonja: That should be possible now
  655. # [22:02] <Dashiva> It's just animated ascii art
  656. # [22:03] <Sonja> Dashiva how would i animate the ascii ? using ajax ?
  657. # [22:03] <charles_> Sonja, you could even do it with custom fonts if you wish
  658. # [22:03] <Sonja> ah, like tile fonts
  659. # [22:03] <Dashiva> Sonja: Yes
  660. # [22:03] <charles_> Sonja, ajax is communication, you would use a timer event
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  662. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Heh, doing a roguelike with actual monospace text would be fun. Nuts to <canvas>, ascii is where it's at.
  663. # [22:04] <charles_> Sonja, if it is a standalone game, you could load the entire thing and then play no need for ajax unless you really need it
  664. # [22:05] <charles_> Sonja, with custom font loaded that is most of the battle
  665. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> Just load it as the textContent of a <pre> and you're done.
  666. # [22:05] <charles_> TabAtkins, need anim with timer for so fun stuff
  667. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> Though I suppose you may want to color the characters. In that case you just wrap them in spans and such.
  668. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> charles_: Yeah, of course, but on each frame you're just replacing the textContent.
  669. # [22:06] <charles_> or divs with fixed position
  670. # [22:06] <charles_> or spans of course
  671. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> Sure, but that's making things too difficult.
  672. # [22:06] <Sonja> each time the player hits an arrow key or a letter, it would load a new html page?
  673. # [22:07] <charles_> Sonja, nope, capture input events via javascript and away you go
  674. # [22:07] <Sonja> sounds like i need to learn javascript then. cool!
  675. # [22:07] <Sonja> and i can make javascript talk to ruby where the actual game is written in
  676. # [22:08] <charles_> Sonja, that would be the core of the game, using javascipt you could change the fonts all over the place and anim them too
  677. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Sonja: Yeah, definitely learn javascript. Anything else would be silly in terms of latency. Learn jQuery to make it easy.
  678. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> And then yes, you can use ajax to talk back to the ruby program on the server and receive instructions.
  679. # [22:08] <Sonja> thanks. you guys are all very smrt and friendly!!
  680. # [22:08] <charles_> Sonja, maybe later ruby or lua or etc
  681. # [22:09] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  682. # [22:09] <charles_> Do it for a living and so have no choice ;)
  683. # [22:09] * Quits: ROBOd2 (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  684. # [22:10] <charles_> Sonja, it is very important to do games in html5 (browser) because if you can do games you can do apps and that is a goal of html5
  685. # [22:11] <charles_> Thanks all will look for the audio canvas and see what I can find.
  686. # [22:11] * Parts: charles_ (n=chatzill@adsl-065-005-190-254.sip.asm.bellsouth.net)
  687. # [22:11] <Philip`> It's important to do games because games are fun
  688. # [22:12] <Dashiva> You could make a javascript roguelike proxy
  689. # [22:12] <Philip`> You don't need to justify it with any other reasoning :-p
  690. # [22:12] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@nat/mozilla/x-eurxalbzivdumsfs)
  691. # [22:12] <Dashiva> That just sends raw key events and receives a string array containing the screen
  692. # [22:14] <Sonja> neat. this makes javascript look like ruby. http://github.com/jedediah/prettyscript
  693. # [22:14] <Philip`> Just use a JS Telnet emulator
  694. # [22:15] <jcranmer> you say that as if it's a good thing
  695. # [22:16] <Sonja> haha aw
  696. # [22:16] <Dashiva> >Blocks are translated to anonymous functions (yay!)
  697. # [22:17] <Dashiva> Sounds efficient
  698. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> Not their fault javascript doesn't allow direct syntax hacking.
  699. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> All your higher-order functions have to be done with closures.
  700. # [22:21] * jgraham always thought games were just designed as stress tests for implementations
  701. # [22:21] <Sonja> what are some good books to learn javascript/jquery from scratch?
  702. # [22:22] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You are veering dangerously close to lisp weenie territory :)
  703. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I am so far into that territory it isn't even funny.
  704. # [22:22] <jgraham> TabAtkins: No need o embaras yourself in public though ;)
  705. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> There's nothing wrong with being a lisp weenie. We have to keep the rest of you imperative-lovers honest.
  706. # [22:23] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@71.23.81.183)
  707. # [22:24] * jgraham always had the impression that lisp allowed for imperative-style programming
  708. # [22:24] <jgraham> at least compared to, say, haskell
  709. # [22:24] <jgraham> Sonja: Supposedly "javascipt: the good parts'" is OK
  710. # [22:25] <Sonja> thanks
  711. # [22:25] <jgraham> At least I seem to recall people sying that
  712. # [22:25] * jgraham has never really read a book about javascript
  713. # [22:26] <jgraham> Sonja: I think there is a John Resig book about jQuery if you care about that in particular
  714. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yeah, it certainly allows it. It just really hurts to do so.
  715. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> jgraham: And then there's things that people *call* imperative, like LOOP, which aren't. LOOP's just a delicious DSL.
  716. # [22:27] <Sonja> well TabAtkins suggested jquery "to make it easy"
  717. # [22:27] <jgraham> And he is releasing "Secrets of the Javacript Ninja" sometime. Which could be good. Or terrible
  718. # [22:28] <jgraham> Sonja: jQuery is mainly useful as a low-pain alterntaive to direct DOM manipulation
  719. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Sonja: Yeah, the thing is that while javascript is a great language, the DOM (the functions you use to communicate with/manipulate the page) is *not*. jQuery papers all that over with a beautiful, consistent syntax.
  720. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> I've never learned DOM scripting, and don't intend to. jQuery is just too beautiful.
  721. # [22:29] <jgraham> The DOM is indeed eye-bleedingly ugly but it is not exactly hard
  722. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I'll note, though, that I'm only a few steps away from being a Haskell weenie too. I keep dipping my toes in the pool, and then backing out and just hacking the functionality I want into my lisp utils file instead (like lazy lists, woo!).
  723. # [22:31] * jgraham is about three chpters in to "Real World Haskell"
  724. # [22:31] <jgraham> Which is really fun but not something I spend enough time on
  725. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> It feels like http://learnyouahaskell.com/ is an awesome resource.
  726. # [22:31] <Sonja> cool
  727. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> In addition to being ridiculous in general.
  728. # [22:31] <Sonja> so i'd learn javascript and jquery instead of javascript and dom
  729. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> Sonja: Yeah.
  730. # [22:32] <Sonja> you guys are such a n00b-friendly channel. thanks! <3
  731. # [22:32] <jgraham> TabAtkins: That is clearly _why inspired. Anything that is _why inspired is inherently good. Even thouh I know no ruby...
  732. # [22:33] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-yftgszhxshzhahll)
  733. # [22:33] <jgraham> "This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License because I couldn't find a license with an even longer name. "
  734. # [22:34] <Sonja> _why quit the internets! :-O
  735. # [22:34] <Sonja> jgraham haha
  736. # [22:35] <jgraham> Sonja: indeed :(
  737. # [22:35] <Sirisian> Does w3c have their IRC server/channel?
  738. # [22:35] * Joins: shepazutoo (n=schepers@71.23.81.183)
  739. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Sirian: Yeah, irc://irc.w3.org:80
  740. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> And then #htmlwg, though that's mostly dead but for the telecons.
  741. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> ^^^ I meant Sirisian.
  742. # [22:37] <Sirisian> oh 80. I was trying 6665 like it said on a random site
  743. # [22:37] <Philip`> You mean #html-wg
  744. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yeah, definitely _why-inspired, and definitely great for that. It pulls off the ridiculous properly as well. You can't just be silly and expect to be good.
  745. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Sure.
  746. # [22:37] <Sirisian> TabAtkins, is it down?
  747. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> No? I'm there right now, in the #css channel.
  748. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> Oh, *but* a bunch of people just got kicked a few minutes ago.
  749. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> So you may not have a route to it.
  750. # [22:39] <Sirisian> TabAtkins, ah I got it. My IRC client didn't understand when I was using a semi-colon. Definitely wanted a space. Thank you
  751. # [22:39] <Sirisian> er colon*
  752. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Sirisian: Ah, k. You can just drop the irc:// in the front, and just do a /server irc.w3.org:80
  753. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Or wait, you mean the port colon?
  754. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Weird.
  755. # [22:40] <Sirisian> x-chat is odd. /server irc.w3.org 80
  756. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Strange.
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  768. # [23:02] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  769. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Where should I ask for an extension on writing a change proposal for issue 76? I'm writing it tonight, but I want to run it past foolip first, and don't want to run the risk of overrunning the tomorrow deadline.
  770. # [23:10] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: in an email reply to the call for counter-proposals
  771. # [23:10] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: request for extension will probably be viewed more favorably if you link a rough draft and say you need some extra time to finalize it (with a specific deadline for finishing)
  772. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Cool, I'll do so tonight.
  773. # [23:11] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: thank you sir
  774. # [23:12] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
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  779. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Argh she has no idea what a cowpath is why god why.
  780. # [23:25] <Sirisian> wow who doesn't know what that is? >_>
  781. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> It's over on the htmlwg list.
  782. # [23:26] <Philip`> TabAtkins: A cowpath is when you lay out a long strip of concrete for the cows to walk down, even if the cows almost never bother doing so
  783. # [23:26] <Dashiva> Well, if you don't know the term it's not that outlandish to assume cowpath = any path that has been walked, as opposed to paved roads
  784. # [23:27] <Philip`> and even if the cows that do walk down it get lost and end up falling into a ditch
  785. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Laughing at that mental image probably makes me a bad person.
  786. # [23:29] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
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  794. # [23:55] <shelleyp> TabAtkins, you don't like me. Fine. But you have to question if you're responding to me because you disagree, or just because its me
  795. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> shelleyp: I respond because I disagree. My like or dislike of you has nothing to do with it.
  796. # [23:56] <shelleyp> I find that unlikely, when I see the petty sniping that goes on in this group
  797. # [23:56] <shelleyp> You have a problem with what I write on the email list, take it up with me, face to face
  798. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> We've been over this before. I do challenge you on something when it's important. When it's not and I'm merely annoyed, there's no need to.
  799. # [23:58] <shelleyp> Then you can take it up with me via email. But I'm tired of having people point out to me the latest nasty little quip about me on this children's hour called an IRC channel
  800. # [23:58] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@static-151-196-60-88.balt.east.verizon.net)
  801. # [23:58] * Quits: shelleyp (n=shelleyp@adsl-69-152-95-235.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net)
  802. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Then... don't listen about the IRC channel? It's not like anyone's insulting you. There aren't low blows.
  803. # [23:59] * othermaciej notes irony of shelleyp's last statement
  804. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> What, that the reason I don't take it up in email is precisely because it's not important enough to take up in email?
  805. # Session Close: Wed Dec 02 00:00:00 2009

The end :)