/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 05 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:03] <jgraham> AryehGregor: FWIW I think I almost entirely disagree with all the points that you made by email
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  10. # [00:04] <jgraham> But I am loathe to reply there because I don't think having a long drawn out discussion of this is helping anyone
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  12. # [00:06] <jgraham> I don't think that standards organisations should be compelled to produce a unique tehnology for each use case; that was the thinking that led to HTML being abandoned in the first place
  13. # [00:07] <Dashiva> And there are factual errors too
  14. # [00:07] <Dashiva> XHTML2 wasn't shut down until quite a while after HTML was resumed
  15. # [00:07] <jgraham> I don't think it is possible to go from where RDFa is today and make it "good" by my criteria without making it "bad" from the point of view of the people who currently like it
  16. # [00:08] <Dashiva> This "one technology for one thing" issue also completely misses the fact that RDFa was made only for XHTML2
  17. # [00:08] <Dashiva> It's like saying don't make jet engines, we'll just put car engines on our planes, they do the same thing
  18. # [00:09] <jgraham> the fact that multiple competing standards leads to uncertianty is bad but I expect it to go away over time once it becomes clear whether a technology has real traction
  19. # [00:10] <jgraham> I don't think competition is a waste of resources if it leads to a better end result
  20. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Agreed, but only up to the point that it's clear that one result is better. At that point spending resources on the lesser branches is a waste.
  21. # [00:12] <jgraham> and I think that given the choice today between using RDFa and using nothing, many people would chose to use nothing i.e. RDFa would not win by default
  22. # [00:12] <jgraham> TabAtkins: We are far far away from that point
  23. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> We're far away from knowing whether RDFa or Microdata is better for HTML?
  24. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> I'd strongly disagree with that.
  25. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Since Microdata is "RDFa, but with better names and some tuneups based on actual use-cases".
  26. # [00:14] <Dashiva> And less horrible ideas
  27. # [00:14] <othermaciej> we're far away from having agreement in the HTML Working Group that it's clear that one technology is better (even though many individual WG members feel one or the other is clearly better)
  28. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> True, agreement in the HTMLWG is still far off.
  29. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> On the other hand, I'm somewhat pessimistic of either group actually shifting.
  30. # [00:15] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I agree that it is better. But we're far from being able to show that it is better by being more successful
  31. # [00:15] <othermaciej> if Microdata had significant deployment success that outpaced RDFa, it would be easier to make the case
  32. # [00:16] <othermaciej> or likewise if RDFa had a lot more deployment success and use by data mining tools than it does now, while Microdata failed to get traction
  33. # [00:16] <othermaciej> I don't expect either of those things to happen in time for Last Call though
  34. # [00:16] <Dashiva> Besides, it seems all parites have acknowledged that RDFa 1.0 is lacking
  35. # [00:17] <Dashiva> So we can't even make a valid comparison until they hash out 1.1
  36. # [00:19] * jgraham is still of the opinion that nothing should happen before LC
  37. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> I am interested in what they come out with for 1.1. What I've heard of so far isn't addressing any of my concerns.
  38. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I'd be fine with that. It's the issue-raising people that are trying to force decisions now. I'm on record as being fine with "wait until it's obvious".
  39. # [00:20] <Dashiva> Well, we can't reach LC until the issues are resolved...
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  42. # [00:23] <mpilgrim> othermaciej: yt?
  43. # [00:24] <mpilgrim> any plans to support <input type=color> beyond https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28966 ?
  44. # [00:31] <othermaciej> mpilgrim: I'm here
  45. # [00:32] <othermaciej> mpilgrim: I think we'd want to use a proper color picker control at some point
  46. # [00:32] <othermaciej> mpilgrim: no specific timeline for that, but definitely we do plan to do it in general
  47. # [00:34] <mpilgrim> thanks
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  50. # [00:35] <mpilgrim> one thing i do miss about mac os x is the awesome crayon color picker :)
  51. # [00:36] <mpilgrim> btw, the iphone's dynamic keyboard-in-response-to-html5-input-types features heavily in the upcoming "web forms" chapter of dive into html5
  52. # [00:36] <Dashiva> My main requirement for a color picker is that it doesn't make it near impossible to get pure colors (in the corners and edges)
  53. # [00:37] <mpilgrim> dunno if you had anything to do with that, but please pass along my gratitude to whoever thought of it
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  55. # [00:37] <mpilgrim> it's far and away the coolest thing i've learned about html5 forms so far
  56. # [00:40] <othermaciej> mpilgrim: yeah, that's a neat use of it for sure
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  59. # [00:42] <othermaciej> Dashiva: I'm not sure what you mean
  60. # [00:43] <Dashiva> The color picker in Aion Online only reacted to clicks, you couldn't click and drag to the edge, so it was really hard to hit edge/corner values like pure black
  61. # [00:43] <othermaciej> Dashiva: but the OS X color picker dialog gives you a wide range of ways to pick colors, including by RGB clides, CMYK sliders, hue/saturation wheel plus luminosity slider, picking from an image, or selecting one of a number of predefined colors from a box of crayons
  62. # [00:44] <othermaciej> (also you can drag a color onto the color well control w/o even popping up a dialog)
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  69. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Sorry for the curtness on the lists. >_< Really didn't intend to be rude; I just shouldn't have responded at all. It was an obviously provocative statement that didn't deserve a response.
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  75. # [01:33] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: just do your best to be courteous, please, even if you feel provoked for whatever reason
  76. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know. I'm sorry I let myself go. I'll watch myself more in the future.e
  77. # [01:37] <mpilgrim> png optimization baffles me
  78. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> That it works?
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  80. # [01:43] <mpilgrim> that i've optimized the same images with about six different tools, and each one seems to find a way to make each image slightly smaller than that last round
  81. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> You've discovered a perfect compressor.
  82. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Keep going until the file is just 1 bit.
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  85. # [01:44] <mpilgrim> apparently there's an element of randomness to it as well
  86. # [01:45] <mpilgrim> there are far too many ways to express the same image to try them all
  87. # [01:45] <mpilgrim> so it's a sort of monte carlo method
  88. # [01:46] <mpilgrim> which is quite maddening for those of us who are obsessive about making our sites load more quickly
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  90. # [01:46] <mpilgrim> because, you know, you could always run it again, and maybe it'll be smaller
  91. # [01:46] <mpilgrim> you can't ever be sure that you're done
  92. # [01:47] <Rik`_> mpilgrim: do you know about http://imageoptim.pornel.net/ ?
  93. # [01:47] <Rik`_> it will take try several tools and pick the best
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  109. # [02:40] <mpilgrim> Rik`: oh goodie, another tool to try
  110. # [02:40] <mpilgrim> you're not helping my neuroses
  111. # [02:41] <Rik`> mpilgrim: hopefully, this will be the last one
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  114. # [02:54] <erlehmann> without dialog, what sensible markup options for an interview are there ?
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  119. # [03:17] <Hixie> it has been brought to my attention that i was incorrect yesterday in saying RDFa was the work of the XHTML2 WG
  120. # [03:17] <Hixie> it was actually a joint project of the XHTML2 WG and the Semantic Web Deployment Working Group
  121. # [03:17] <Hixie> (I'd never heard of the Semantic Web Deployment Working Group before)
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  128. # [03:36] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: There are many sensible options. The spec's suggest <p> and <b> method would work just fine. Ideally I might mark up the speaker with a <hx> and give it display:run-in.
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  187. # [11:02] <Lachy> I don't get how Shelley can complain about the size of the spec being too large, and yet get all worked up about people suggesting that some features will end up being deferred to a future revision of HTML.
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  190. # [11:23] <Hixie> it's probably similar to how she thinks that the "most compelling" argument for something she agrees with is my opinion, but that if she disagrees with something, that my opinion is worthless
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  195. # [12:00] <Hixie> sorry, "a compelling", not necessarily the "most compelling"
  196. # [12:01] <jgraham> I don't get why people are so happy to let her dictate the terms of all discussion
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  200. # [12:08] <roc> Hixie: isn't that common? If my enemy agrees with me *even though* he is evil, that is clearly strong evidence of the universal appeal of my position. On other hand, if my enemy disagrees with me, then that is only because he is evil.
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  202. # [12:09] <Hixie> roc: I didn't say it was uncommon, but that doesn't make it acceptable
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  243. # [16:58] <mpilgrim> i wonder if julian realizes he just walked into a trap
  244. # [16:58] <mpilgrim> probably not, since that's why they call them "traps"
  245. # [16:59] <mpilgrim> IMG isn't controversial *now*, but it was most certainly controversial when it was introduced (by a browser vendor, against the working group's wishes)
  246. # [17:00] <mpilgrim> it also wasn't in the first several drafts of XHTML 2, probably because XHTML 2 was TBL's recreation of what he thought HTML always should have been
  247. # [17:00] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  248. # [17:00] <annevk2> back back
  249. # [17:00] <annevk2> discussions on public-html are still somewhat painful to read
  250. # [17:01] <mpilgrim> references: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Dec/0173.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Dec/0174.html
  251. # [17:02] <mpilgrim> and TBL never wanted an IMG element
  252. # [17:02] <annevk2> I'm guessing some of the participants are not very happy with life
  253. # [17:04] * mpilgrim is very happy with life, but finds that reading public-html distracts him from getting real work done
  254. # [17:04] <mpilgrim> like writing a book
  255. # [17:04] <mpilgrim> unlike irc, which isn't distracting at all :)
  256. # [17:05] <annevk2> IRC is nice
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  258. # [17:06] <annevk2> I've never really seen significant process made on public-html discussions involving "two camps" with mutually incompatible goals
  259. # [17:06] <annevk2> I stopped participating in them, mostly
  260. # [17:08] <annevk2> The other reason is that most discussions feel like damage control, which I also tried to do in the CDF WG, and was no fun at all and mostly pointless in the end anyway
  261. # [17:09] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B015D0D.dip.t-dialin.net)
  262. # [17:09] <annevk2> Maybe we should just split the group and have two editions of HTML5. After a decade we can study the then contemporary practices and go to REC
  263. # [17:10] <mpilgrim> i'm pretty sure that's inevitable anyway
  264. # [17:10] <mpilgrim> maybe shelley et. al. could call their version "HTML5 Plus"
  265. # [17:10] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  266. # [17:11] <annevk2> sounds fine to me
  267. # [17:11] <annevk2> hopefully then everyone can be somewhat more happy instead of all this hostile crap
  268. # [17:12] <mpilgrim> i miss XHTML 2
  269. # [17:12] <mpilgrim> it provided a nice safe playground where all these like-minded people could play without hurting anyone
  270. # [17:12] <timz> mpilgrim: they'd better call it HTML5less
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  272. # [17:13] * mpilgrim wonders if timz knows the history of "HTML Plus"
  273. # [17:13] <timz> hehe no :-)
  274. # [17:13] <timz> i'm having a look
  275. # [17:14] <daedb> this http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_1.html ?
  276. # [17:16] <timz> haha, yes that would probably fit her/their ideas of what HTML5 should be
  277. # [17:17] <mpilgrim> the W3C has a long history of fucking up HTML by going off into la-la land for a few years while the world evolves without them
  278. # [17:17] * daedb has never heard of HTML Plus before...
  279. # [17:17] <mpilgrim> HTML+ was one such effort (between HTML 1.0 and HTML 2.0)
  280. # [17:17] <mpilgrim> HTML 2.0 was basically "hey, let's see what browsers have actually implemented while we weren't looking"
  281. # [17:17] <mpilgrim> then they made HTML 3.0, which was similarly delusional
  282. # [17:18] <mpilgrim> then they threw that away and made HTML 3.2, which was basically "hey, let's see what else browsers have actually implmeented while we were busy masturbating"
  283. # [17:18] <timz> haha
  284. # [17:19] <mpilgrim> then they made HTML 4.0, which shockingly wasn't completely horrible (though it was horribly underspecified)
  285. # [17:19] <timz> you've been around all of those discussions or you just red the "history of html, a different perspective"
  286. # [17:19] <mpilgrim> then they gave up on HTML altogether, to the point of ignoring all W3C process and refusing to issue errata or integrate existing errata into point releases
  287. # [17:20] <mpilgrim> and started whole hog on XHTML
  288. # [17:20] <mpilgrim> XHTML 1.0 is literally HTML 4 + a few useless slashes
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  290. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> oh, and a new MIME type and draconian error handling, which nobody uses (hi Sam)
  291. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> then XHTML 1.1, which nobody uses
  292. # [17:21] <timz> so is HTML5 a w3c idea or a community (vendors) idea ?
  293. # [17:21] <mpilgrim> then XHTML 2, which they spent almost a decade on and finally put out to pasture this year
  294. # [17:22] <mpilgrim> HTML5 was a community-led effort of browser vendors, standards wonks (like Hixie), and other interested parties
  295. # [17:22] <mpilgrim> all formerly quite active within the W3C
  296. # [17:22] <mpilgrim> they begged and pleaded with the W3C to let them work on HTML5 (or 4.1, or whatever, anything but XHTML 2)
  297. # [17:22] <mpilgrim> the W3C said no
  298. # [17:23] <mpilgrim> so they formed their own working group (WHATWG)
  299. # [17:23] <mpilgrim> and started from scratch (since the license of the HTML 4 specification forbids derivative works by non-W3C organizations)
  300. # [17:24] <Lachy> so then it seems this HTML+RDFa effort may just be the next round of crap to be attempted during the overall development of HTML, that will likely eventually die out like the rest.
  301. # [17:24] <mpilgrim> HTML+RDFa doesn't appear to have any chance at all of being a good spec until they redefine RDFa in terms of the DOM
  302. # [17:24] <mpilgrim> anything else is simply insane
  303. # [17:25] <mpilgrim> that's not to say people won't use it
  304. # [17:25] <mpilgrim> google rich snippets, etc.
  305. # [17:25] <timz> with limited vocabs that is
  306. # [17:25] <mpilgrim> but defining a new syntax "on top of" HTML in terms of a byte stream is just insane
  307. # [17:27] <daedb> heh, HTML+ had a <person> element :)
  308. # [17:28] <mpilgrim> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/11/02/why-do-we-have-an-img-element is fun related reading on the history of HTML
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  310. # [17:28] <Dashiva> RDFa being based on the source text kinda makes me think of people parsing HTML with regex
  311. # [17:28] <mpilgrim> it (and the rest of this stuff) will form the basis of the introductory chapter of http://diveintohtml5.org/
  312. # [17:28] <Dashiva> It seems to work until you start using it for anything significant
  313. # [17:29] <mpilgrim> indeed
  314. # [17:29] <daedb> <RENDER TAG="PROPNAME" STYLE="I">... that's... interesting :O
  315. # [17:30] <timz> mpilgrim: "but defining a new syntax "on top of" HTML", you are referring to RDFa ?
  316. # [17:30] <mpilgrim> yes
  317. # [17:31] <mpilgrim> it would appear that the current HTML+RDFa effort has zero chance of producing a good specification
  318. # [17:31] <mpilgrim> and if RDFa sees enough implementation, we'll need to do an RDFa5 retro-spec in a few years
  319. # [17:31] <timz> because it so explicitly bound to xml and rdf ?
  320. # [17:32] <mpilgrim> which will consist of reverse engineering google's implementation (or whoever ends up being the dominant consumer of RDFa on the public web)
  321. # [17:32] <timz> hmm, sounds like a good argument for keeping microdata
  322. # [17:32] <Dashiva> Hmm, yeah
  323. # [17:32] <mpilgrim> i'm not a fan of microdata either
  324. # [17:33] <mpilgrim> it's a decent enough solution to the stated problem
  325. # [17:33] <Lachy> mpilgrim, that's not surprising. I read the HTML+RDFa spec, and it's clearly been written by people with little clue about how to actually write specifications
  326. # [17:33] <mpilgrim> i'm just not a fan of the stated problem
  327. # [17:33] <timz> hehehe
  328. # [17:33] <Dashiva> I'm sure there will be a decent amount of complaints that Google is wilfully sabotaging RDFa by having a non-perfect implementation
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  330. # [17:33] <mpilgrim> when people say "i want to extend HTML in arbitrary, private, and probably proprietary ways," the appropriate answer is "fuck you"
  331. # [17:35] <Dashiva> Extensibility has become one of those words that doesn't mean anything anymore
  332. # [17:36] <Dashiva> Like when the topic was making sure HTML5 was easily extensible by HTML6, it turned into a complaint about lack of DE
  333. # [17:36] <Lachy> mpilgrim, if their intention is for those extensions to appear on the public web and have 3rd party implmentations and websites using them, then that sure is the right answer
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  335. # [17:37] <Lachy> Dashiva, even the concept of distributed extensibility doesn't mean much in practice. It's basically become an alias for full namespace support and RDFa
  336. # [17:38] <Lachy> and that's despite all the extension points already in HTML5 that allow 3rd party extensions, without using either namespaces or RDFa
  337. # [17:39] <mpilgrim> Lachy: haven't you heard? those aren't "real" extensibility points
  338. # [17:39] <mpilgrim> Paging True Scotsman, party of 1... True Scotsman, party of 1
  339. # [17:39] <Lachy> the problem seems to be that proponents believe those to be the ultimate solution and are unwilling to accept any alternative solution, regardless of any evidence presented, nor evaluation of them against the use cases and problems they solve
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  342. # [17:44] <timz> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/11/02/why-do-we-have-an-img-element <-- good read mpilgrim :-)
  343. # [17:45] <mpilgrim> 'twas fun to research and write, too
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  346. # [17:47] <Dashiva> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Dec/0022.html
  347. # [17:47] <Dashiva> Validation is overrated, I guess
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  349. # [17:50] <annevk2> Removing the test seems like a very poor solution to the problem...
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  351. # [17:51] <daedb> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_21.html Wow, HTML+ has both <img> and <image>... did the alt attribute not exist when that was written?
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  353. # [17:52] <annevk2> alt was invented for lynx at some point, not sure when
  354. # [17:52] <mpilgrim> the alt attribute was first added in HTML 4.0
  355. # [17:53] <mpilgrim> lol
  356. # [17:53] <mpilgrim> i'd forgotten this salient little detail:
  357. # [17:53] <mpilgrim> when the XHTML 2 WG did finally re-introduce the <img> element,
  358. # [17:53] <mpilgrim> they gave it a different content type than <img> in XHTML 1 and HTML 4
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  360. # [17:54] <mpilgrim> they made it a non-void element
  361. # [17:54] <mpilgrim> the child content was the fallback content
  362. # [17:55] <mpilgrim> which is actually a great idea, but (i'm told) it royally breaks existing web content
  363. # [17:55] <annevk2> yeah, it seems they admitted compat was needed, but then at the same time did not
  364. # [17:55] <annevk2> or something
  365. # [17:55] <mpilgrim> "Also, <img> was reintroduced to XHTML 2, no doubt after a vigorous and healthy debate in which all parties treated each other with mutual respect. But now it has a different content model than <img> in XHTML 1 and HTML 4, which just goes to show that mutual respect is for chumps."
  366. # [17:55] <mpilgrim> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-October/001783.html
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  368. # [18:04] <daedb> Cool, HTML+ had an element for figures :)
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  375. # [18:35] <Lachy> daedb, so did HTML3
  376. # [18:48] <daedb> Lachy: Hopefully it will stay this time.
  377. # [18:49] <Lachy> daedb, it might get dropped again, since we still can't resolve the caption element issue, and the current dt/dd model sucks
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  379. # [19:01] <timz> what's the primary argument for not using caption ?
  380. # [19:01] <timz> in figure
  381. # [19:02] <Lachy> timz, compatibility with legacy parsing issues
  382. # [19:03] <timz> okay, so html5 documents have to be compatible with older parsers ?
  383. # [19:04] <Dashiva> No, html5 parsers have to be compatible with older documents
  384. # [19:04] <Dashiva> But the reverse is of course desirable
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  387. # [19:15] <daedb> Lachy: I really hope not, it's one of my favourite new elements.
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  434. # [22:40] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/XML/2009/12/xml-stylesheet/
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  449. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> jgraham, given the choice between using RDFa and using nothing, many people would use nothing. Except when RDFa is the only thing that works with CC license readers, or Rich Snippets, or . . .
  450. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> I'm not worried about individual authors saying "Let's use RDFa, that sounds great!" I'm worried about organizations with some clout basing new de facto standards on it.
  451. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Thus forcing everyone to use it.
  452. # [23:49] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  453. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> That's how it's worked its way into MediaWiki.
  454. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> I couldn't really argue with "But you have CC license-scraping bots and this would be great for Commons."
  455. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> (Wikimedia Commons, that is)
  456. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> RDFa is the only Creative Commons-approved way to embed license metadata, AFAIK.
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  460. # [23:53] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: FWIW, I think committees don't get to vote to kill specs. they only get to vote on whether they allocate their resources to developing a given technology
  461. # [23:54] <hsivonen> for example, OASIS doesn't get to vote OOXML out of existence
  462. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> Well, the W3C could still endorse one or the other exclusively.
  463. # [23:54] <hsivonen> and the W3C didn't successfully vote HTML out of existence
  464. # [23:54] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: sure
  465. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> So could the HTMLWG.
  466. # [23:54] <hsivonen> yes
  467. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> That would have an impact.
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  469. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> Just like disbanding the XHTMLWG had an impact. We get to say "No, don't use that, it's obsolescent."
  470. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> I doubt it will happen, though.
  471. # [23:55] * AryehGregor shakes fist dramatically at the W3C
  472. # [23:55] <hsivonen> it had a publicity impact
  473. # [23:55] <hsivonen> but XHTML2 was already dead
  474. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's my point.
  475. # [23:55] <hsivonen> or s still very much alive depending on point of view
  476. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> If the W3C said "Hey, we decided RDFa is a bad idea, use microdata instead", then we could say to Creative Commons "Hey, why don't you encourage people to use microdata instead of RDFa? The W3C says so!"
  477. # [23:56] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I observe that the W3C didn't stop work on XForms when it invited HTML5 (incl. Web Forms 2.0) in
  478. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> And I think that's silly too. :)
  479. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> (plus, I'm sure that will die soon enough, unless it has significant non-HTML users)
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  481. # [23:59] <hsivonen> XForms got baked into ODF 1.0
  482. # [23:59] <hsivonen> some approximation of RDFa got baked into ODF 1.1, according to rumors
  483. # Session Close: Sun Dec 06 00:00:00 2009

The end :)