/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 09 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <annevk3> TabAtkins, you should point out that the IDL attribute is a boolean and so technically should not be set to a string
  4. # [00:02] <annevk3> TabAtkins, so script.async = true is perfectly fine
  5. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> I don't actually know that, so I won't point it out.
  6. # [00:02] <annevk3> and script.async = 'async' is not
  7. # [00:02] <annevk3> but script.setAttribute("async", "async") is
  8. # [00:02] <annevk3> etc.
  9. # [00:02] <annevk3> it seems the commenter is confused on that
  10. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Nod, I am too. jQuery abstracts it enough that I don't have to care about things.
  11. # [00:03] <annevk3> I see...
  12. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> So the idl attribute *can* be unset with =false? Or no?
  13. # [00:04] <annevk3> it can, yes
  14. # [00:04] <annevk3> it's a boolean
  15. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> kk
  16. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> DOM is confusing. >_<
  17. # [00:04] <annevk3> see the HTMLScriptElement interface
  18. # [00:04] <annevk3> it's very simple
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  20. # [00:05] <annevk3> setting the IDL attribute to false will in fact remove the content attribute
  21. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> So those are the names I should use when talking about this? "IDL attribute" and "content attribute"?
  22. # [00:06] <annevk3> it's what HTML5 uses
  23. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> kk
  24. # [00:06] <annevk3> you might see DOM attribute being referred to as property as well because that's what it is in ECMAScript, but that's somewhat confusing given CSS
  25. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> "DOM attribute" = "IDL attribute"?
  26. # [00:07] <jgraham> me does't think "very simple" is really true
  27. # [00:08] <jgraham> When script.async = false does exactly the opposite to script.setAttribute("async", false)
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  29. # [00:08] <annevk3> TabAtkins, ah sorry, used to be DOM attribute, now is IDL attribute
  30. # [00:09] <annevk3> jgraham, they're completely different things
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  32. # [00:09] <jgraham> annevk3: Yes. That's why it's not "very simple"
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  34. # [00:13] <annevk3> mu
  35. # [00:17] <annevk3> (hopefully mu works for DOM arguments too)
  36. # [00:17] <annevk3> (maybe it should be "du")
  37. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> script.async="false" would still make it true, right? (Almost certain of this, but want to double-check before I send the email.)
  38. # [00:19] <Philip`> That sounds like an issue for WebIDL
  39. # [00:19] <annevk3> that's because a non-zero string evaluates to true in ECMAScript
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  41. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> That's what I thought.
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  44. # [00:22] <Philip`> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-boolean
  45. # [00:22] <Philip`> so it just defers to ES's ToBoolean
  46. # [00:23] <Philip`> (which does what annevk3 says)
  47. # [00:24] <annevk3> annevk3 is awesome
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  50. # [00:34] <annevk2> hmm
  51. # [00:35] <annevk2> it's prolly no longer worth pointing out that SGML allowed omission of the attribute if the value itself gave enough context...
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  56. # [00:47] <annevk2> I've learned history is important, but I always wonder if knowing (some of) the technical details of SGML is really helping me...
  57. # [00:48] <Philip`> Is your life not immeasurably enriched by knowing it's the attribute name rather than the value that is optional?
  58. # [00:49] <annevk2> So far I've not experienced that unfortunately
  59. # [00:49] <annevk2> Hopefully that is yet to come
  60. # [00:56] <jwalden> š…  the best is yet to come š… 
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  64. # [01:00] <annevk2> Track 18 of Metal Gear Solid? :)
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  66. # [01:01] <annevk2> (see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid_Original_Game_Soundtrack for those who do not have the CD)
  67. # [01:02] <annevk2> (Wikipedia is awesome)
  68. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> I need those soundtracks. MGS music is awesome.
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  99. # [03:46] <Dashiva> othermaciej: "We will not do any numerical counting all the votes." ... "To the extent we apply any numerical analysis to the results"
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  101. # [03:48] <othermaciej> Dashiva: belt and suspenders!
  102. # [03:48] <othermaciej> or were you pointing out my typo?
  103. # [03:48] <Dashiva> No, just wondering which one is closer to reality :)
  104. # [03:49] <othermaciej> the former
  105. # [03:50] <othermaciej> the latter I stated in case anyone gets worked up about, say, all 10 of the opera reps responding
  106. # [03:51] <Dashiva> The vast Opera-wing conspiracy
  107. # [03:52] <Dashiva> But okay, answer accepted
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  134. # [05:50] <erlehmann> tach
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  142. # [07:02] <bfulgham_> Does anyone know if there is a proposal for animating transitions on visibility so that 'hidden' could accordion the surround blocks?
  143. # [07:03] <bfulgham_> Or rather, animating on "display" to allow accordion or other effects?
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  147. # [07:16] <smaug> bfulgham_: you're talking about css transitions? That discussion should happen on www-style@w3.org
  148. # [07:16] <bfulgham_> smaug: thanks
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  179. # [10:03] <Philip`> http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/xml-parsing-accelerator-with-intel-streaming-simd-extensions-4-intel-sse4/ - intriguing
  180. # [10:03] <Philip`> html5lib would be much faster if it was rewritten to use SSE assembly instead of Python
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  182. # [10:05] <annevk2> do it!
  183. # [10:05] <annevk2> the problem is of course that the code will only run on a proprietary processor
  184. # [10:06] * Philip` wonders what a non-proprietary processor would be
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  187. # [10:07] <annevk2> one with a standardized programming API?
  188. # [10:07] <annevk2> I suppose it might still be proprietary in that case
  189. # [10:08] <Philip`> Is there such a thing that exists today and is used?
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  191. # [10:09] <Philip`> Everyone just uses x86 and copies Intel (except occasionally when Intel copies AMD) so it seems the closest thing to a standard :-)
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  199. # [10:23] <Hixie> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&esrch=RTSearch&gl=us&tbo=1&tbs=mbl:1&q=html5&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10
  200. # [10:23] <Hixie> woo
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  259. # [11:52] <annevk2> Hixie, so you wanna combine the UI for streaming video/audio with geolocation, etc.?
  260. # [11:52] <annevk2> and most other things pages can ask for going forward, such as e.g. digital camera harddrive
  261. # [11:52] <Hixie> only if that is the best solution
  262. # [11:53] <Hixie> i don't know what the best solution is
  263. # [11:53] <annevk2> how would you combine that with the existing API?
  264. # [11:53] <annevk2> yeah I guess
  265. # [11:53] <annevk2> meh
  266. # [11:53] <Hixie> i wasn't really thinking of geolocation
  267. # [11:53] <Hixie> did tab update his proposal?
  268. # [11:54] <annevk2> for microdata? haven't seen anything
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  277. # [11:56] <nessy> ohh! microdata! I wonder how that combines with video metadata
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  308. # [12:53] <Hixie> what time is the htmlwg telecon these days?
  309. # [12:54] * Parts: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  310. # [12:55] <AryehGregor> How is the telecon conducted? IRC?
  311. # [12:55] <jgraham> Telephone
  312. # [12:55] <AryehGregor> Amazing.
  313. # [12:55] <jgraham> Hence the "tele"
  314. # [12:55] <AryehGregor> "tele" means "distant".
  315. # [12:55] <AryehGregor> You know, like "telecommunications", and "teleport".
  316. # [12:55] <jgraham> Only in greek (or something)
  317. # [12:56] <AryehGregor> Okay, anyway. I guess Hixie will have to borrow someone's phone. :)
  318. # [12:56] <gsnedders> television is vision over telephone?
  319. # [12:56] <jgraham> Gah
  320. # [12:56] <jgraham> Hixie: 6pm CET on a Thursday
  321. # [12:56] <AryehGregor> Telepathy is detecting thoughts via telephone.
  322. # [12:56] <Hixie> jgraham: thanks
  323. # [12:56] * Hixie changes to CET
  324. # [12:57] * jgraham has never heard of a telecon that was not conducted by telephone
  325. # [12:57] * Hixie changes back to PDT
  326. # [12:58] <Philip`> It's 1700Z according to two out of three repetitions of the time in the last reminder email
  327. # [12:59] <Hixie> figured i should at least be aware that i'm missing it this week since it's plausible i'll be awake at that time
  328. # [12:59] <Hixie> (though not near a phone unless i get some meeting room booked)
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  331. # [13:00] <AryehGregor> Teleconferences can also be by video.
  332. # [13:01] <Hixie> we call those video conferences
  333. # [13:01] <Hixie> and they're much better than telecons though still almost as much of a waste of time
  334. # [13:04] <AryehGregor> What's wrong with IRC?
  335. # [13:05] <Hixie> or e-mail?
  336. # [13:05] <Hixie> beats me
  337. # [13:05] <AryehGregor> E-mail is a lot slower, it has definite disadvantages.
  338. # [13:05] <AryehGregor> Although also advantages.
  339. # [13:05] <Hixie> e-mail is far faster at making progress than telecons
  340. # [13:05] <Hixie> than scheduled telecons, i should say
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  342. # [13:06] <Hixie> scheduled telecons cause working groups to only work immediately before and during a telecon
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  344. # [13:06] <Hixie> so it becomes impossible for the group to make decisions except during the meeting
  345. # [13:06] <Hixie> which is ridiculous
  346. # [13:06] <Hixie> you can see this e.g. from the way the chairs of the htmlwg are only able to make decisions on tuesdays
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  348. # [13:06] <Hixie> scheduled irc meetings would have the same problem
  349. # [13:07] <AryehGregor> Isn't it an HTMLWG policy that decisions are only made by e-mail and such? There's something about allowing asynchronous communication.
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  351. # [13:07] <Hixie> yes, but subgroups (like the chairs) can arrange for their own decisions to be synchronous if they want
  352. # [13:08] <Hixie> so long as membership in the group isn't a requirement to influence decisions
  353. # [13:09] * erduschmann is now known as erlehmann
  354. # [13:10] * AryehGregor is glad to see that there will be no actual votes, just decisions by a cabal of three chairs instead of one editor
  355. # [13:11] <AryehGregor> Although theoretically the decision will be what causes the least strong objections instead of the one they think is technically best, so it's somewhat different.
  356. # [13:12] * Quits: peroo (n=peroo@peroo.xen.prgmr.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  357. # [13:13] <Philip`> I guess "least strong objections" means you should threaten to shout loudly and file FOs etc if you don't get your way, so that your objections carry more weight
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  359. # [13:14] <Hixie> yeah i'm curious to know how they intend to weigh rationales if not in the same way that i did when examining the issue as the editor
  360. # [13:14] <AryehGregor> Yes, that sounds like the strategically appropriate response to such a policy.
  361. # [13:14] <AryehGregor> Presumably they're allowed to ignore you if they think you're faking, though.
  362. # [13:15] <jgraham> Hixie: It is not impossible that they will weight rationales in the same way that you did but come to a different conclusion
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  364. # [13:15] <AryehGregor> Honestly, no one can really fault them too much no matter what decision they make on something like microdata, since obviously they can't please everyone.
  365. # [13:15] <jgraham> But I agree that is not what they have stated they will do
  366. # [13:16] <Hixie> surely if they get a different conclusion then by definition they've used a different method of weighing arguments :-)
  367. # [13:16] <Hixie> i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that
  368. # [13:16] <Hixie> i'm just wondering what their method will be
  369. # [13:16] <AryehGregor> Even if they secretly just pick whatever solution they like, people will probably still end up being more satisfied because they were told it's a compromise rather than "I think you're wrong, too bad".
  370. # [13:17] <Hixie> (in fact i'd say that they _should_ use a different method, since otherwise the whole escalation process is pointless since they'd always agree with me)
  371. # [13:17] <AryehGregor> It wouldn't be pointless politically even if they always agreed with you, only technically.
  372. # [13:18] <Hixie> technically is what i care about
  373. # [13:18] <AryehGregor> Then why are you having anything to do with the W3C? :)
  374. # [13:18] <jgraham> Hixie: Well they can use the same _method_ but get different results due to different inputs
  375. # [13:18] <Hixie> AryehGregor: patent policy and to get microsoft's feedback
  376. # [13:18] <Hixie> AryehGregor: in retrospect, as i've said before, i think we would have been better off just getting our own patent policy
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  378. # [13:19] <jgraham> e.g. you might tend to weigh arguments that correspond with your own experience more highly
  379. # [13:19] <AryehGregor> Well, but that's basically political.
  380. # [13:19] <AryehGregor> I'd think the WHATWG with its own patent policy would be at a significant disadvantage without Microsoft on board.
  381. # [13:19] <Philip`> The three chairs should meet on a wind-swept heath and drop the arguments into a cauldron and then dance around it until a conclusion reveals itself to them
  382. # [13:20] <Hixie> jgraham: i guess if you don't consider the weighing function part of the weighing function... :-)
  383. # [13:20] <Hixie> AryehGregor: in practice we've gotten very little useful input (or indeed any input) from microsoft
  384. # [13:20] <AryehGregor> Yes, but they at least claim they'll implement HTML5 at some point, which is something.
  385. # [13:21] <AryehGregor> I really meant from an implementation perspective, not feedback.
  386. # [13:21] <AryehGregor> It's not much good if Microsoft doesn't implement it.
  387. # [13:21] <Hixie> i don't think the w3c affected that really
  388. # [13:21] <AryehGregor> Maybe not. Too late now, I guess.
  389. # [13:22] <AryehGregor> Hixie, please tell your superiors at Google that they need to kill Microsoft faster, thanks.
  390. # [13:22] <jgraham> Hixie: The exact weighing function isn't exactly part of the "method"
  391. # [13:22] <Hixie> google has no intention of killing microsoft, we actually wish microsoft would compete better to give us more of a run for our money
  392. # [13:22] <Hixie> but that's another story
  393. # [13:23] <Hixie> jgraham: fair enough
  394. # [13:23] * Philip` imagines a Google monopoly would be about as bad as a Microsoft monopoly
  395. # [13:23] <gsnedders> But they "do no evil"! :P
  396. # [13:23] <AryehGregor> Philip`, you mean like all the terrible effects we've been seeing from their monopoly on search?
  397. # [13:24] * Quits: peroo (n=peroo@peroo.xen.prgmr.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  398. # [13:24] <jgraham> Google monopoly? Do you go round a little board and buy up different websites and build adverts on them to collect money?
  399. # [13:24] * Joins: peroo (n=peroo@peroo.xen.prgmr.com)
  400. # [13:24] <AryehGregor> Slightly lower market share than MS in the OS market, but still.
  401. # [13:24] <Hixie> AryehGregor: google has nowhere near a monopoly on search
  402. # [13:25] <Philip`> Google doesn't seem to have shown any reluctance to develop and deploy their own private web technologies that are largely focused on the needs of other parts of Google, without much input from other vendors
  403. # [13:26] <AryehGregor> Well, that's called "not being a bunch of hippie open-source freaks", not "being monopolistic". :)
  404. # [13:27] <AryehGregor> As long as they don't try to lock you in to anything.
  405. # [13:27] <AryehGregor> Which generally they don't.
  406. # [13:27] <AryehGregor> There's some tie-in between their services, but usually pretty weak.
  407. # [13:27] <AryehGregor> Okay, I was supposed to leave ten minutes ago, bye.
  408. # [13:27] <Hixie> later
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  415. # [13:48] <boblet> interestingā€”HTML5-style charset declaration isnā€™t stronger than user-declared character encoding in FF3.5.5, but http-equiv style one is
  416. # [13:49] <Hixie> yeah okcool.de has a comment to that effect
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  418. # [13:50] <Hixie> i haven't been able to get more info on it -- do you have test cases showing this?
  419. # [13:51] <boblet> Hixie: is that to me? Iā€™ll up oneā€¦
  420. # [13:51] <Hixie> yes :-)
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  429. # [14:27] <boblet> Hixie: crapā€”testing methodology fail. Sorry. Hereā€™s the question that made me check it: http://doctype.com/doesnt-html-5-meta-charset-tag-work
  430. # [14:27] <boblet> Hixie: I couldnā€™t reproduce the error
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  436. # [14:37] <boblet> Can <nav> be used for site search or pre/next page links? I think no, but heard yes for searchā€¦
  437. # [14:39] <boblet> (Iā€™ve also seen ā€œread moreā€¦ā€ links marked as <nav> btw ;-)
  438. # [14:40] <daedb> I can see <nav> being used for prev/next page links, but I wouldn't use it for search or read more links...
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  445. # [15:01] <Philip`> boblet: Seems odd
  446. # [15:01] <Philip`> Could be his HTML/text editor detects the meta http-equiv and saves as UTF-8 in that case, and ISO-8859-1 otherwise, or something
  447. # [15:02] * Philip` doesn't know what else it would be, especially since he says he's setting the HTTP Content-Type charset too
  448. # [15:04] <Philip`> boblet: I hope <nav> is okay for next/previous, since the multipage HTML5 spec uses it for that
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  453. # [15:20] <boblet> Philip`: yeah that Doctype.com q is peculiar. hopefully Iā€™ll hear back
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  455. # [15:24] <boblet> Philip`: Looking at the HTML5 multipage spec, next/prev page links are part of a larger nav block. Do you think itā€™d apply on eg the meter/noscript links on http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/nav.html ?
  456. # [15:24] * Joins: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.245.182)
  457. # [15:25] <boblet> Philip`: Mikeā€™s used div.nav span.nav-prev and span.nav-next
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  459. # [15:27] <daedb> boblet: I'd probably use <nav> for those links...
  460. # [15:28] * Joins: Sirisian_ (n=Sirisian@pix053-197.pix.wmich.edu)
  461. # [15:28] <Hixie> boblet: weird. there's a comment in the source of okcool.de that talks about this also, and i can't get anyone to explain to me why.
  462. # [15:29] <Philip`> boblet: I imagine he used that because the W3C pubrules don't like HTML5 markup
  463. # [15:31] <Hixie> who's doing webidl these days?
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  472. # [15:45] <Hixie> indeed, is there a bug tracker for webidl?
  473. # [15:45] <boblet> Hixie: re: charset, maybe itā€™s just a problem somewhere else (server header, toolsā€¦)
  474. # [15:45] <Hixie> maybe...
  475. # [15:46] <boblet> Philip`: ok that makes sense
  476. # [15:46] <Hixie> hmm, webidl has a bug component in bugzilla, but not bugs
  477. # [15:46] <boblet> Iā€™m surprised that <nav> applies to prev/next links, as theyā€™re often just a single link (not a block), and thereā€™s already rel="next/prev"
  478. # [15:46] * Joins: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@pix012-168.pix.wmich.edu)
  479. # [15:47] <Philip`> Judging by the relevant code (around http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla1.9.1/source/intl/chardet/src/nsMetaCharsetObserver.cpp#319 (for Firefox 3.5)), it looks like http-equiv charset and meta charset are reported indistinguishably, so it shouldn't be possible for one to work and not the other
  480. # [15:47] <boblet> Hixie: would you use <nav> for site search form?
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  482. # [15:48] <Hixie> would you have a "skip navigation" link for a site search form?
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  484. # [15:48] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, i never found any distinctions when doing the testing way back when
  485. # [15:49] <Philip`> (That does indicate <meta charset=utf8 foo=bar won't work, though)
  486. # [15:49] <Philip`> Uh, <meta charset=utf8 foo=bar>
  487. # [15:53] <Hixie> oh?
  488. # [15:54] <Philip`> Hmm, but that's not what happens in practice
  489. # [15:55] <Philip`> (The GetCharsetFromCompatibilityTag is only in the 'else' of a thing that checks for the number of attributes)
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  492. # [15:59] <Philip`> Maybe that's not the code that's actually used
  493. # [15:59] <boblet> Hixie: I wouldnā€™t, but I can see some would. Yeah, thatā€™s the nub
  494. # [16:00] <Hixie> boblet: i think it'd be fine to use <nav> for that, but also fine not to
  495. # [16:01] <Hixie> basically, don't use <nav> unless you think <section> would also be appropriate, with an <h1>Navigation</h1>.
  496. # [16:01] <boblet> Hixie: I really love that a lot of the structural element usage is almost up to authors. Thatā€™s what most people hate, of course, but still :)
  497. # [16:01] <Hixie> it'd be extremely difficult, and only mildly useful, to be more specific than we already are
  498. # [16:01] <Philip`> Whatever code Firefox 3.5 is using, it also accepts things like <meta notcharset="utf-8">
  499. # [16:01] <Hixie> and we're already waaaay more specific than html4 ever was
  500. # [16:02] <Philip`> so it can't just be the attribute-based extracter
  501. # [16:02] <boblet> makes it harder to write best practice info, but itā€™s much more interesting
  502. # [16:03] <Hixie> best practice is "don't use <div> and don't use class=''", basically
  503. # [16:03] <Hixie> but often you have to use one or the other
  504. # [16:03] <Hixie> since html isn't _that_ expressive, even with all the new stuff
  505. # [16:04] <boblet> Hixie: why not class? that seems to becoming a best practice with eg @stubbornellaā€™s CSS performance info
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  508. # [16:06] <boblet> Iā€™ve actually started using her ā€œh2 .h2 {}ā€ style classes, then in html <section><h1 class="h2">
  509. # [16:07] <Hixie> o_O
  510. # [16:07] <Hixie> why would you do that
  511. # [16:08] <boblet> not as pure HTML but better than ā€œsection section h1, article section h1 {}ā€
  512. # [16:08] <Hixie> oh well, yes, we need to figure out a better css selector solution for nested section headers
  513. # [16:08] <Philip`> boblet: Why not use <h2>?
  514. # [16:08] <Hixie> i meant theoretical best practice in the future, not best practice now
  515. # [16:09] <boblet> also I think class="h2" has semantic meaning
  516. # [16:09] * Hixie wonders when breakfast service is _supposed_ to start at his cafe
  517. # [16:09] <boblet> Philip`: HTML5-style headingsā€”reset to <h1> with each section
  518. # [16:09] * Joins: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.12.168)
  519. # [16:09] <Hixie> no, you can use whatever level you want
  520. # [16:09] <Hixie> <section><h2></h2></section> and <section><h1></h1></section> mean the same thing
  521. # [16:10] <boblet> well, I think it was maintain correct heading levels taking nesting into account, or reset to <h1> each time you start a new section, no?
  522. # [16:10] <Hixie> aha, 8am
  523. # [16:10] <Hixie> another hour
  524. # [16:10] <Hixie> no, it resets inside each <section>
  525. # [16:11] <Hixie> the highest <hx> within each section (er, lowest, i guess, closest to <h1>) is the heading
  526. # [16:11] <boblet> but not to <h1>? interesting
  527. # [16:11] <Hixie> well the best practice is you should have only one <hx> per <Section>
  528. # [16:11] <Hixie> so it doesn't make any difference
  529. # [16:11] <boblet> so you could skip levels, eg <h1></h1> <section><h3></h3>ā€¦
  530. # [16:12] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  531. # [16:12] <Hixie> you can use <body><h6></h6><section><h3></h3><nav><h1></h1></nav></section></body> means the same as <body><h2></h2><section><h4></h4><nav><h6></h6></nav></section></body>
  532. # [16:12] <Hixie> ...which means the same as <body><h1></h1><section><h1></h1><nav><h1></h1></nav></section></body>
  533. # [16:12] <Hixie> each section does its own heading hierarchy
  534. # [16:13] <boblet> but wouldnā€™t that mean that itā€™s easier to just start at <h1> for each new section?
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  536. # [16:13] <boblet> assuming youā€™re doing crazy stuff like applying styles via classes? :)
  537. # [16:13] <Hixie> apparently not, since you use classes :-)
  538. # [16:13] <boblet> haha
  539. # [16:13] <Hixie> <h1 class="h2"> is not as easy as <h2> :-)
  540. # [16:14] <boblet> hrmā€¦ I must ponder this more :) at this rate Iā€™ll never release this site
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  542. # [16:15] <workmad3> and even though <body><h1></h1><section><h2></h2></section></body> means the same thing no matter what level of heading you use to a machine, there are still ways of doing it that are clearer to people :)
  543. # [16:15] <Hixie> indeed
  544. # [16:16] <workmad3> and clearest to a human is probably either <h1> all the time or <hx> appropriate to the sectioning level...
  545. # [16:16] <Hixie> agreed
  546. # [16:16] <workmad3> (which I believe are the two examples given in the spec :) )
  547. # [16:17] <boblet> You might want to check out http://j.mp/6FMCDi ā€” @stubbornellaā€™s OOCSS presentation
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  549. # [16:18] <Hixie> will do
  550. # [16:18] <boblet> itā€™s quite a different way to approach things. Itā€™s definitely changed some of my perceptions
  551. # [16:19] <boblet> workmad3: I guess <h1 class="h2"> is just the first one with a cop-out for easier CSS selector writing
  552. # [16:19] <boblet> (at least, thatā€™s what I thought)
  553. # [16:19] <workmad3> boblet: I personally see that as an abomination :)
  554. # [16:20] <boblet> hahaha
  555. # [16:20] <workmad3> and besides, why use a <h1> there... it's *much* simpler to use a <div>... so then you have <div class="h1">, <div class="em">, <div class="font">...
  556. # [16:21] <boblet> I can definitely see how on a large popular site writing long CSS selector chains would gradually kill you tho
  557. # [16:21] <Hixie> woah, that suggestion on slide 68 (the <h1 class="h2"> thing) is crazy
  558. # [16:21] <Hixie> if you're finding that you're applying h2 styles to an h3, then your semantics are wrong
  559. # [16:21] <boblet> Hixie: youā€™re killing me here
  560. # [16:21] <boblet> :D
  561. # [16:21] <Hixie> the rest of it so far is good
  562. # [16:22] <Hixie> i also disagree with slide 92
  563. # [16:22] <boblet> I think itā€˜s to address the ballooning of selectors problem; like specifying each case of clearfix rather than applying a .clearfix or .group style
  564. # [16:22] * Quits: KevinMarks2 (n=KevinMar@213.152.16.55) (Connection timed out)
  565. # [16:23] <Hixie> i think styling elements is the way to go, and styling classes should be the exception
  566. # [16:23] <Hixie> but that might just be that i think you should define defaults first, which seems to be the same, but said differently
  567. # [16:23] <boblet> well, she does say ā€œ(unless defining defaults)ā€
  568. # [16:25] <Hixie> yeah
  569. # [16:25] <Hixie> i strongly agree with what she says at the end
  570. # [16:25] <Hixie> i don't understand why we don't have better tools
  571. # [16:26] <boblet> @stubbornella addresses that too http://j.mp/7i7Dfe ā€” CSS Wish List
  572. # [16:27] <boblet> adding programatic concepts like mixins to CSS
  573. # [16:27] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  574. # [16:27] <workmad3> boblet: check out sass :)
  575. # [16:28] <boblet> hahaā€”planning to do so for this site (have it open in a tab somewhere here)
  576. # [16:28] <workmad3> sass does have mixins... and the ability to do maths, etc. in css files
  577. # [16:29] <workmad3> and it gets compiled down to normal CSS and can even be minimised, etc. :)
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  579. # [16:30] <boblet> workmad3: yeah Iā€™m looking forward to checking out stylesheet size differences (why I didnā€™t start with it)
  580. # [16:30] <boblet> ok thanks for the food for thought all. Bed calls
  581. # [16:30] <workmad3> I need chocolate and coffee myself
  582. # [16:30] <workmad3> but then it's only 3:30 p.m. for me :)
  583. # [16:31] <boblet> Will hopefully have an HTML5 site with the HTML5 articles Iā€™ve written so far on it tomorrow to announce
  584. # [16:31] <boblet> later
  585. # [16:33] * Parts: boblet (n=boblet@p2086-ipbf309osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  586. # [16:34] <ray> h1 class="h2"?
  587. # [16:38] <miketaylr> <div class="span">
  588. # [16:38] <ray> html5 has a way to set the charset besides meta http-equiv?
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  590. # [16:39] <Hixie> you can just say <meta charset="...">
  591. # [16:39] <Hixie> (or use HTTP headers)
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  595. # [16:41] <ray> that's nice
  596. # [16:41] <Hixie> it even works in existing browsers
  597. # [16:41] <ray> meta http-equiv=blahblahblah was the only thing i couldn't type from memory
  598. # [16:42] <Hixie> you could type the DOCTYPE from memory? :-)
  599. # [16:42] <ray> :)
  600. # [16:42] <Hixie> i'm impressed :-)
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  602. # [16:45] <Hixie> on an unrelated note, i'm amazed that my last e-mail to shelley actually convinced her
  603. # [16:46] <Hixie> i guess it pays to be thorough with each e-mail and to show how one is contradicting oneself rather than just replying to the latest comment each time, ignoring earlier ones
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  605. # [16:51] * jgraham would like to dispell the notion that only people who don't think the use cases should be addressed support microdata
  606. # [16:51] * Philip` wonders where Shelley said she was convinced
  607. # [16:52] <Hixie> Philip`: she didn't, but she didn't reply to my e-mail, which is the only sign i've ever seen of her admitting she was wrong on anything
  608. # [16:52] <Philip`> It seems an equally likely hypothesis is that she had already made all the points she wanted to make and was fed up with going in circles and therefore stopped
  609. # [16:54] <Hixie> that'd be a first, if so
  610. # [16:54] <Philip`> jgraham: If you do that, you could also dispel the notion that the use cases are synonymous with the Semantic Web community
  611. # [16:55] <Hixie> anyone got a suggestion for a good e-mail that summarises the storage mutex issues?
  612. # [16:56] * Philip` doesn't care about Semantic Webs or Linked Data or RDF or anything, but still thinks it's probably useful to have a way to easily encode structured data in a web page so screen-scrapers are easier to write
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  614. # [16:57] <Hixie> that's basically google's position too
  615. # [16:58] <jgraham> Philip`: I habe a draft of an email that says more or less that that (I wrote it before complaining on IRC even) but I am never convinced that actually sending email is a good idea
  616. # [16:58] <jgraham> *have
  617. # [17:01] * gsnedders grumbles about not having a clearly defined difference between es-discuss (where discussion is most about ES5) and es5-discuss (where discussion is mostly about ES5)
  618. # [17:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: Kind of like public-html and whatwg?
  619. # [17:01] <Philip`> (on good days)
  620. # [17:01] <gsnedders> But both mailing lists are on the same server.
  621. # [17:01] <Philip`> (where public-html discussion is mostly about HTML5 and not about HTML WG processes)
  622. # [17:02] <Philip`> s/good/rare/ perhaps
  623. # [17:03] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well es-discuss is mostly about es.next these days
  624. # [17:03] <jgraham> But I think there are too many mailing lists
  625. # [17:03] <Hixie> woo, breakfast time
  626. # [17:03] <Hixie> bbl
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  698. # [18:07] * Philip` thinks the HTML WG should have a poll to determine what poll options to provide in a second poll
  699. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> Philip`: I'm not sure that's a good idea. Can we have a poll about it?
  700. # [18:08] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I don't think a poll for that is worthwhile. Poll?
  701. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> Poll? Poll poll poll-poll.
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  727. # [18:58] <jgraham> othermaciej: It would be nice if the issues list had the name or shortname of each issue somewhere
  728. # [18:58] <othermaciej> jgraham: good point
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  730. # [18:59] <othermaciej> jgraham: I'll look into that when I get into the office
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  732. # [18:59] <jgraham> othermaciej: Thanks
  733. # [19:00] <gsnedders> othermaciej: For the poll on microdata, is it one vote per W3C Member or one vote per WG representive
  734. # [19:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: It is not a poll
  735. # [19:01] <othermaciej> gsnedders: I have a three-part answer for that
  736. # [19:01] <othermaciej> 1) it's not a vote
  737. # [19:02] <othermaciej> 2) multiple representatives of an organization are free to each state their response
  738. # [19:02] <othermaciej> 3) if we *do* somehow count (which we don't intend to), we will weight all responses from a single organization as one vote
  739. # [19:02] * gsnedders had the understanding of the W3C process that it didn't matter how the outcome of the poll was judged, just whether it was a formal WG vote or not, jgraham
  740. # [19:03] <othermaciej> it is not a formal Vote
  741. # [19:03] * jgraham wonders how that works if different respondents from the same organisation say different things
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  744. # [19:03] <othermaciej> jgraham: might end up counting as 0.5 in favor of each option - but it likely won't come up, since we don't plan to count
  745. # [19:04] <jgraham> othermaciej: Sure :)
  746. # [19:04] <othermaciej> we just don't want people to complain or be suspicious if there are, say, 7 Apple responses or 10 Opera responses
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  755. # [19:19] <Philip`> Ooh, impressive, 3 out of 3 of the times listed in the new telecon reminder email are correct and consistent
  756. # [19:19] <Philip`> (Too bad the date in the subject is wrong)
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  819. # [21:57] <MattCampbell> Which html5lib tree implementation is best for round-tripping HTML? That is, I want to parse some HTML, possibly do some manipulations, and then serialize the tree back to HTML.
  820. # [21:58] <MattCampbell> I'm talking about the Python implementation.
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  825. # [22:03] <gauthierm> if an autoplaying video is removed from the document using removeChild(), should it keep playing?
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  835. # [22:15] <kinetik> gauthierm: yes
  836. # [22:16] <gauthierm> kinetik: thanks. Bug in FF 3.5 then.
  837. # [22:16] <kinetik> gauthierm: "Media elements must not stop playing just because all references to them have been removed; only once a media element to which no references exist has reached a point where no further audio remains to be played for that element (e.g. because the element is paused, or because the end of the clip has been reached, or because its playbackRate is 0.0) may the element be garbage collected."
  838. # [22:16] <gauthierm> ah sorry, I meant NOT a bug in FF 3.5
  839. # [22:17] <kinetik> i think there actually is a bug where the media is stopped early in some cases
  840. # [22:17] <kinetik> which should be fixed in 3.6
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  842. # [22:17] <gauthierm> it is a bit weird that audio can keep playing with no way for the user to stop it
  843. # [22:20] <Philip`> I guess it helps if you want to write a page that has sound effects, since you don't need to manually keep all the audio elements in the page and then clean them up once they've finished playing
  844. # [22:21] <gauthierm> kinetik: is the bug you're referring to triggered when removing a media element that is currently playing?
  845. # [22:22] <gauthierm> FF seems to only continue playing if the media is set to autoplay and the element is removed before it starts playing.
  846. # [22:22] <gauthierm> WebKit stops when the element is removed in both cases.
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  850. # [22:30] <jgraham> MattCampbell: It shouldn't matter in theory
  851. # [22:30] <kinetik> gauthierm: there was no self-reference to the media when playing, so it'd die at some random point after it was removed from the document and no longer referenced
  852. # [22:30] <kinetik> gauthierm: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=518659#c6
  853. # [22:31] <jgraham> I always use lxml although there are some bugs with that in corner cases (some of the XMLness checking code is known-wrong, it can't represent all doctypes, etc.)
  854. # [22:32] <jgraham> but it is the best tested
  855. # [22:32] <MattCampbell> If lxml is the best tested, then I'll use that.
  856. # [22:32] <jgraham> beautifulsoup should be avoided
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  858. # [22:36] <gauthierm> kinetik: I'm a bit confused. Here is my test case: http://labs.silverorange.com/files/mozilla/video-testcase/test-case.html When the video starts playing and you click remove, audio stops instantly. If you click remove before the video loads (still a black box) it continues buffering and then starts playing in the background.
  859. # [22:37] <MattCampbell> How tolerant is html5lib's parser with regard to malformed markup? Can it handle any markup that a current browser can?
  860. # [22:39] <Philip`> MattCampbell: It will parse any sequence of bytes and never stop with a fatal error (excepting some of the bugs with lxml etc)
  861. # [22:40] <Philip`> and will recover from errors in a way that should be sufficiently compatible with current browsers that future browsers will be happy to adopt the same parsing algorithm
  862. # [22:40] <kinetik> gauthierm: that's because removing an active media element causes it to pause
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  865. # [22:43] <kinetik> er, so, my original answer was incorrect, sorry
  866. # [22:43] <MattCampbell> jgraham: Mainly out of curiosity, why should BeautifulSoup be avoided?
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  868. # [22:44] <Philip`> MattCampbell: It lacks features (like namespace support) and has quite a few bugs that we don't how to work around, if I remember correctly
  869. # [22:46] <MattCampbell> So it seems that html5lib + lxml.etree might be suitable for screen-scraping apps, which is what BeautifulSoup was intended for.
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  871. # [22:49] <Philip`> It ought to work for that
  872. # [22:49] <Philip`> If not, please file bugs :-)
  873. # [22:50] <Philip`> (A while ago the BeautifulSoup author sounded interested in replacing its parser with html5lib, which would be good if you prefer that API, but I don't know if anything's happened with that)
  874. # [22:51] <MattCampbell> I have no particular API preference; since lxml seems to be the most tested, I'll use that.
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  876. # [22:54] <Philip`> Some of the bugs with lxml may cause fatal errors if you try parsing lots of random real pages, but the bugs ought to be easy to fix and then it'll be robust
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  879. # [22:55] <gauthierm> kinetik: ah, that makes more sense :) There is a bug in FF then because the networkState is NETWORK_LOADING when the element is removed but FF is NOT acting as if the pause() method was called. I will file on bugzilla.
  880. # [22:55] <kinetik> gauthierm: great, thank you
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  898. # [23:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: man, i hope you're able to keep track of all the change proposal changes in doing your updates
  899. # [23:28] <Hixie> i can barely work out what the proposal is anymore
  900. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> It's, wellā€¦ It's a good thing I procrastinate.
  901. # [23:30] <Hixie> heh
  902. # [23:30] <Hixie> you have just a few more hours, i guess :-)
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  905. # [23:36] <othermaciej> you have until 9 AM Pacific Time tomorrow, basically (i.e. the time of the telecon)
  906. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> The hope is that from the time I start to the time I turn it in, no more change proposals.
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  909. # [23:39] <hober> TabAtkins: some feedback on your counter proposal
  910. # [23:39] <hober> TabAtkins: for what it's worth, here's what I think is one of the more compelling reasons for having features in HTML like <time>, the microdata attributes, etc.
  911. # [23:40] <hober> TabAtkins: HTML's existing extensibility mechanisms (class="" etc.) are pretty good, but could use some enhancing to better support groups like the Microformats community (who build on top of HTML.)
  912. # [23:40] <hober> TabAtkins: <time>, microdata, etc. simply are that enhancing of HTML's extenisbility mechanisms over what is in HTML4.
  913. # [23:40] * hober didn't even mention RDFa
  914. # [23:40] <hober> :)
  915. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Heh, but it's sort of dishonest then. RDFa could also be used to do that. Microdata just does it better and more easily.
  916. # [23:41] <hober> ... which is why we should incorporate Microdata into HTML5 and not RDFa, no? :)
  917. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> It's why we should *support* Microdata. It doesn't, by itself, mean we should keep it in HTML5.
  918. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> But it is a good support for the actual reasons.
  919. # [23:43] <hober> Hmm. No, I think the point I'm trying to make *does* support "keeping microdata in HTML5", in much the same way that my argument supports "keeping class='' in HTML5"
  920. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> Not if there was compelling evidence that Microdata could serve the same noble purpose in its own separate spec.
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  922. # [23:45] <hober> I have an insufficiently powerful imagination, I guess: I can't see the difference between Microdata and the other extensibility points of HTML. No one actually wants class='' to be in a different spec, right?
  923. # [23:46] * hober studiously ignores the XHTML Role Attribute Module (because what is role='' if not "class='' 2: class harder"?)
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  925. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Oh, don't worry. I don't see a difference either. I'm just saying.
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  931. # Session Close: Thu Dec 10 00:00:00 2009

The end :)