/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 11 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Philip`> No it's not
  4. # [00:01] <Philip`> It's all different colours
  5. # [00:01] <MindstormsKid> yes :P
  6. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Identical content. >_<
  7. # [00:03] <hsivonen> colors of the spec are important
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  10. # [00:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: Did you file a bug on the opera respawning thing?
  11. # [00:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: no. I whined about it here.
  12. # [00:08] <hsivonen> s/I whined/I just whined/
  13. # [00:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: Would you mind filing a bug? Especially if you have some idea of when it reproduces e.g. after update
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  15. # [00:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't have an idea of the conditions required to reproduce
  16. # [00:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: which makes it hard to file a useful bug report
  17. # [00:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: Oh. Well perhaps you could file a useless one instead (at least with the version number and the OSX version)
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  19. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> very nice to see that WebGL draft made publicly available, plus a public mailing list
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  21. # [00:23] <JonathanNeal> I'm just leaving the codec out for now with mp4 video @ http://vm-20.liferay.com/documentation/5.2/installing-with-tomcat-6
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  27. # [00:32] <aho> https://www.khronos.org/webgl/
  28. # [00:32] <aho> woo webgl specs :D
  29. # [00:32] <aho> (draft specs, mind you) :>
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  39. # [01:12] <ttepasse> http://24ways.org/2009/incite-a-riot
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  44. # [01:21] <JonathanNeal> ttepasse, fight for your right to cite!
  45. # [01:24] <ttepasse> :)
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  70. # [02:51] <hsivonen> Does Kaazing have a Web Socket server already?
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  72. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yes
  73. # [02:57] <MikeSmith> not a separate server, but integrated into their gateway product
  74. # [02:57] <MikeSmith> iirc
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  76. # [03:05] <franksalim> hsivonen, yes
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  79. # [03:08] * MikeSmith didn't know franksalim was on this channel
  80. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> hi franksalim
  81. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> have you had time yet to look at SPDY much?
  82. # [03:09] <franksalim> MikeSmith, hello
  83. # [03:11] <franksalim> MikeSmith, not in great detail
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  86. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> franksalim: I'm just wondering how overlap there will end up being in practice between use of SPDY protocol and use of Web Sockets protocol
  87. # [03:14] <MikeSmith> wondering whether the Web Sockets client API could also be used with SPDY as the network protocol
  88. # [03:15] <franksalim> the WebSocket api could certainly wrap the SPDY protocol in some way
  89. # [03:17] <franksalim> so far SPDY hasn't been exposed to JavaScript in any way beyond how HTTP has been exposed, AFAIK
  90. # [03:17] <franksalim> XHR and requests for resources (that may be cached)
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  123. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2009-December/009754.html
  124. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> about the "eml" tag
  125. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> we'll see what response that gets
  126. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> but in the mean time, I reckon we can just add special-case handling for eml in the language-tag code
  127. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> and remove it later if/when "eml" does actually get added to the registry
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  134. # [08:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  135. # [08:17] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  140. # [10:18] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  154. # [11:04] <Hixie> sorry about sporadic downtime overnight, dreamhost were downing some surgery on my web host config to fix some problems on some of my other domains
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  168. # [12:32] <annevk2> "If getContext() is subsequently called with any other string, the WebGLRenderingContext shall be detached from its Canvas object (the canvas attribute will be null). API calls may still be made on the WebGLRenderingContext object and readPixels() may be used to obtain the contents of the drawing buffer. But the contents shall no longer be shown on the page."
  169. # [12:32] <annevk2> hmm
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  171. # [12:33] <annevk2> it doesn't say it if can become attached again afterwards
  172. # [12:33] <Philip`> Also doesn't say what happens if you have a reference to a 2D context then get a WebGL context then use the 2D context
  173. # [12:36] <Philip`> Maybe HTML5 ought to define a mechanism for new contexts to be defined that interact with other contexts in various ways (e.g. one context being a vendor-specific extension of another context, or one being exclusive to all other contexts, etc)
  174. # [12:36] <annevk2> or it should say that exclusive contexts are verboten
  175. # [12:36] <Philip`> because otherwise it's quite possible that multiple specs will define contradictory behaviour
  176. # [12:37] <annevk2> yuhhuh
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  178. # [12:38] <Philip`> How would it work with non-exclusive contents?
  179. # [12:38] <Philip`> If you draw something with WebGL then draw something else with 2D on the same canvas, what happens?
  180. # [12:38] <Philip`> and then when you call toDataURL, what happens?
  181. # [12:39] <annevk2> it should just draw on top
  182. # [12:39] <annevk2> i'd guess
  183. # [12:39] <annevk2> and share the backing store
  184. # [12:39] <Philip`> HTML5 seems to assume there is a single bitmap that's part of the canvas state, but I think that's incompatible with efficient WebGL implementations
  185. # [12:39] <annevk2> so everything draws on the same bitmap
  186. # [12:40] <Philip`> OpenGL doesn't draw onto bitmaps in system memory, unless you manually copy it back from the video card (which is pretty slow)
  187. # [12:40] <annevk2> you could implement 2d in WebGL
  188. # [12:42] <Philip`> I think that's kind of what's happening with some Direct2D browser experiments, but that's Windows-only and it's apparently really hard if you just have the raw 3D APIs
  189. # [12:42] * jgraham seems to recall we had this conversation before :)
  190. # [12:43] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't recall coming to any conclusion before, sadly
  191. # [12:43] <jgraham> No, we didn't
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  193. # [12:43] <Philip`> It would be nice to have one at some point
  194. # [12:43] <Philip`> before it gets shipped too much
  195. # [12:43] <jgraham> IIRC we decided it would be nice if everything could happen on the graphics card but probably impractical in the short term
  196. # [12:44] <annevk2> Hixie is always big on cracks between the specs
  197. # [12:44] <annevk2> he should take this on!
  198. # [12:44] <Hixie> file a bug
  199. # [12:44] <annevk2> mkay
  200. # [12:44] <Hixie> i wonder how webgl implementations handle the canvas being animated with a 3d css transform
  201. # [12:45] <Hixie> while a <video> plays on top...
  202. # [12:45] <annevk2> on a phone with hardware accelerated video
  203. # [12:45] <annevk2> ...boom...
  204. # [12:47] <annevk2> bugs
  205. # [12:47] <annevk2> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8476
  206. # [12:48] <jgraham> In the future people will carry their phone in their pocket and a huge backpack containing a graphics card and a water cooling system
  207. # [12:49] * Philip` wonders if jgraham has missed the trend for electronic miniaturisation over the past half a century
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  209. # [12:52] <jgraham> Philip`: :) But presumably power consumption and heat generation are still rather large problems even with minature components
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  211. # [13:00] <Philip`> jgraham: Things like PSPs and iPhones seem to do decent 3D quite happily, with similar capabilities to full-size consoles from ten years ago
  212. # [13:01] <Philip`> and I assume they must cope with the power and heat requirements adequately
  213. # [13:01] <Philip`> and I don't see any reason for the trend to stop
  214. # [13:02] <workmad3> most high-end phones have mobile versions of reasonable graphics chips nowadays
  215. # [13:03] <workmad3> and I'd say the capabilities are closer to pc graphics from about 5 years ago, but with less available memory
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  219. # [13:04] <Philip`> workmad3: So they could run Half Life 2? :-)
  220. # [13:05] <workmad3> Philip`: potentially, if you reduced the graphics quality and map size considerably to fit within the memory available ;)
  221. # [13:07] <workmad3> at least in 3d graphics capabilities... there's a lot more to HL2 than that though :)
  222. # [13:08] <Philip`> I probably shouldn't have said "capabilities" - it seems like they support much more modern features and APIs, but performance is further behind
  223. # [13:08] <Philip`> so you have to use the capabilities more sparingly
  224. # [13:08] <workmad3> Philip`: that's probably about right yeah :)
  225. # [13:09] <Philip`> (I know basically nothing about this area though, so mostly I'm just guessing :-) )
  226. # [13:09] <workmad3> they don't run quite as fast, and have nowhere near as much memory, but the feature-set of the chips in use is pretty modern and allows for more sophisticated stuff than consoles from 10 years ago did
  227. # [13:09] <Philip`> At least they don't have to bother with HD resolution output
  228. # [13:09] <workmad3> that said, you don't need to render in anywhere near as high resolution or store as much geometry :)
  229. # [13:10] <workmad3> I think phone screens nowadays are 'QHD' (quarter HD) nowadays and clock in at 640x360 pixels :)
  230. # [13:11] <workmad3> but raw graphics power isn't really the problem on phones... it's control and all the other stuff that's needed
  231. # [13:12] <Philip`> That sounds more like ninth HD, unless you cheat and consider lower-than-standard-cheap-laptop-display to be HD :-)
  232. # [13:13] <Philip`> They should call it "middling definition", perhaps
  233. # [13:13] <workmad3> Philip`: a standard HD res is 1280 * 720
  234. # [13:14] <workmad3> (I think that's the res of 1080p)
  235. # [13:14] <Philip`> 1080p is 1920x1080, hence the "1080" in the name, unless I'm horribly confused
  236. # [13:14] <workmad3> so taking the HD resolutions as those supported by HD tvs, then it is a quarter of that :)
  237. # [13:15] <Philip`> (and 1280x720 is 720p)
  238. # [13:15] <workmad3> hmm... I may be thinking of 720p then
  239. # [13:15] <workmad3> still, it's classed as a HD resolution, so the phone manufacturers went with a quarter of it as 'QHD' :)
  240. # [13:16] <peroo> actually qhd is 960x540, one quarter of 1920x1080 :)
  241. # [13:17] <peroo> 640x360 is nHD apparantly, whatever that means
  242. # [13:18] * Philip` guesses it must have been a marketing person who decided an acronym containing the word "high" was appropriate for sub-VGA resolutions :-p
  243. # [13:18] <jgraham> "Not High Definition", perhaps
  244. # [13:19] <workmad3> heh, I'm going by what the phones I worked on that had that resolution called it :)
  245. # [13:21] <workmad3> still, AFAIK, the graphics chips available to phones are capable of the raw power required to do all the effects that modern consoles are capable of, the restricting points are things like the physics engines and other processing that's required to get the data ready for the screen in a game
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  254. # [14:41] <Hixie> i wonder how to add features to html5 without pissing off the htmlwg
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  256. # [14:45] <daedb> Hixie: I don't think that's possible (unless it's XMLy or includes namespaces), but do it anyway :p
  257. # [14:46] <Hixie> well there are options like making the new features only appear in the whatwg version
  258. # [14:46] <annevk2> Hixie, what feature?
  259. # [14:46] <Hixie> which would piss off the people who get pissed off regardless of what i do, but wouldn't piss off the more sane people
  260. # [14:47] <jgraham> I would be pissed off if we introduced namespaces
  261. # [14:47] <Hixie> annevk2: e.g. a widget to trigger the display of UA UI to allow the user to select a video source
  262. # [14:47] <Philip`> What about the people who think it'll be really confusing if there's two substantially different HTML5 specs?
  263. # [14:47] <Hixie> Philip`: are they likely to cause me more or less trouble than the people who would complain at me adding features as we are trying to get to LC?
  264. # [14:48] <annevk2> Hixie, at what point do we declare HTML5 feature complete?
  265. # [14:48] <Hixie> we declared HTML_5_ feature complete about 2 years ago
  266. # [14:48] <Hixie> well that's not quite accurate
  267. # [14:49] <Hixie> we announced that HTML5 feedback shouldn't ask for new features about 2 years ago, and then announced LC (feature freeze) about 2 months ago
  268. # [14:49] <Hixie> but I'm talking about post-HTML5
  269. # [14:49] <Hixie> HTML6, or HTMLCurrent, or whatever
  270. # [14:49] <annevk2> ah ok
  271. # [14:49] <annevk2> so are you going to version the differences somehow?
  272. # [14:50] <Hixie> how do you mean
  273. # [14:50] <annevk2> <!--HTML6--> or some such
  274. # [14:50] <Hixie> you mean "are the new features going to appear in the w3c html5 draft"?
  275. # [14:51] <annevk2> just wondering about the WHATWG Last Call draft for the moment
  276. # [14:51] <jgraham> any draft that says HTML5 at the top I would have thought
  277. # [14:51] <Hixie> yeah that's the question, how to do it
  278. # [14:51] <Hixie> we could rename the whatwg draft to just "HTML", i guess
  279. # [14:51] * jgraham thinks it would be fine to make a HTML.next draft for unstable stuff
  280. # [14:51] <Hixie> or have a separate view of it somehow
  281. # [14:52] <annevk2> I think we should maintain a HTML5 copy
  282. # [14:52] <annevk2> preferably on the same URL
  283. # [14:52] <Hixie> maybe have specs/web-apps/html5/ include just the html5 stuff, and specs/web-apps/current-work/ for the new stuff
  284. # [14:52] <Hixie> (and specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html for everything but sql)
  285. # [14:52] <annevk2> current-work/ does suggest latest, so yeah, that seems ok
  286. # [14:53] <Hixie> btw if any of you want your specs merged into complete.html, we can do that
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  288. # [14:53] <Hixie> e.g. to get the XHR cross-refs working
  289. # [14:53] <annevk2> people will find it somewhat confusing if we call it "HTML" though I suspect
  290. # [14:53] <Hixie> we could call it HTML6
  291. # [14:53] <Hixie> or 5.1
  292. # [14:53] <Hixie> or something
  293. # [14:53] <annevk2> Hixie, hmm yeah, I hope someone fixes anolis
  294. # [14:54] <Hixie> (though i really want to drop this versioning crap)
  295. # [14:54] <annevk2> HTML (formerly HTML5)
  296. # [14:54] <annevk2> for at least half a year or so
  297. # [14:54] <annevk2> and then we drop (formerly HTML5)
  298. # [14:55] <Hixie> or "HTML (including HTML5)", to indicate it's more than HTML5
  299. # [14:55] <annevk2> yeah, works too
  300. # [14:55] <Hixie> and then drop the paranthetical
  301. # [14:55] <gsnedders> annevk2: patches welcome.
  302. # [14:56] <jgraham> Call it HTML unstable or something
  303. # [14:56] <Hixie> (s/a/e/magic)
  304. # [14:56] <gsnedders> HTML Beta
  305. # [14:56] <jcranmer> HTML 5 rc i
  306. # [14:56] <jgraham> HTML Labs
  307. # [14:56] <Hixie> well the idea is to just have a single name that is always the top of the tree
  308. # [14:56] <Hixie> so "unstable" or "beta" is kinda wrong
  309. # [14:56] <gsnedders> jcranmer: So it's not a rc?
  310. # [14:56] <Hixie> i mean, <p> isn't going anywhere
  311. # [14:56] <jcranmer> gsnedders: it's an imaginary one
  312. # [14:57] <Hixie> i wish othermaciej was here, i'm curious as to his opinion on this
  313. # [14:57] <jcranmer> more complex than the real HTMLs
  314. # [14:57] <jgraham> Hixie: Well you always have an unstable and periodically make numbered stable releases, Debian style
  315. # [14:57] <jgraham> (or call it HTML Mainline which sounds cooler, like a VU song)
  316. # [14:57] <Hixie> that's what i want to move away from
  317. # [14:57] <annevk2> I'd rather be forever in release-state
  318. # [14:57] <Hixie> yeah
  319. # [14:58] <Hixie> bbiab, gotta get ready.
  320. # [14:58] <jgraham> Well so I would I but good luck getting the rest of the world to agree
  321. # [14:58] <annevk2> but until we convince the W3C it's prolly safer to have markers for the new stuff
  322. # [15:00] <annevk2> no need to convince the whole world
  323. # [15:01] <annevk2> just the patent lawyers
  324. # [15:01] <annevk2> which is prolly harder
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  331. # [15:27] <Hixie> not really any need to convince those either so long as the w3c is publishing snapshots
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  333. # [15:27] <Hixie> which i doubt they plan to stop doing
  334. # [15:29] <annevk2> legal effect of the patent policy only applies to W3C Recommendations
  335. # [15:29] <annevk2> I believe
  336. # [15:34] <Hixie> right, so so long as they keep publishing everything the whatwg does, everything is covered
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  338. # [15:34] <Hixie> doesn't really matter when the publication happens, since the policy doesn't really kick in until REC anyway, as I understand it
  339. # [15:34] <annevk2> the issue I'm thinking about is that W3C Recommendation status is incompatible with forever-trunk
  340. # [15:35] <Hixie> i'm saying that what we do is forever-trunk at the whatwg, and continue working with the w3c to publish RECs every now and then
  341. # [15:35] <Hixie> as we've basically been doing
  342. # [15:35] <Hixie> the only problem is that the htmlwg is kinda stopping progress on html because of it trying to go to LC
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  344. # [15:36] <Philip`> If the patent policy only kicks in at REC, I guess that means everyone is free to sue each other until 2022?
  345. # [15:36] <annevk2> that works though that also means you need to keep the REC markers in the document (or trunk markers)
  346. # [15:36] <annevk2> if you want to get rid of those too (I like!) then the convincing thingie above applies
  347. # [15:37] <annevk2> Philip`, pretty much
  348. # [15:37] <annevk2> Philip`, but I'm not a lawyer
  349. # [15:37] <Hixie> REC markers?
  350. # [15:39] <annevk2> <!--REC-ends-->
  351. # [15:39] <annevk2> or <!--HTML6--> or whatever
  352. # [15:39] <jgraham> That sounds... bad
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  354. # [15:40] <Hixie> so long as one source document is generating more than one published document, i don't see how we could stop having some kind of markers
  355. # [15:41] <jgraham> It seems nightmarish to generate multiple versions of the same spec from the same source file
  356. # [15:42] <Hixie> i take it you haven't read http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F recently
  357. # [15:42] <annevk2> Hixie, the difference is that this is a version marker, but maybe that's not much of a difference
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  359. # [15:42] <MattCampbell> What version of Python does html5lib require?
  360. # [15:42] <Hixie> annevk2: i don't see how it's any different than html5 vs complete.html, or the whatwg microdata vocab spec vs w3c's three microdata vocab specs
  361. # [15:42] <jgraham> Hixie: This is quite different
  362. # [15:42] <annevk2> Hixie, and hopefully we do not let it scale to IE8 proportions
  363. # [15:43] <jgraham> I would have thought
  364. # [15:43] <Hixie> jgraham: how so?
  365. # [15:43] <jgraham> MattCampbell: 2.4 I guess
  366. # [15:43] <Hixie> annevk2: well these are just supersets of each other right, i mean, it's not like we're changing anything
  367. # [15:43] <jgraham> Hixie: Because I would expect changes from new versions to be much more invasive than changes that just involve splitting along broad feature lines
  368. # [15:44] <MattCampbell> darn, guess I'll have to compile Python from source to use html5lib on RHEL5 (which has Python 2.4)
  369. # [15:44] <Hixie> jgraham: i would expect editorial changes to just be made to all versions
  370. # [15:44] <jgraham> MattCampbell: (it might work under 2.3 but no promises)
  371. # [15:44] <annevk2> Hixie, sure, but it could get tricky nonetheless
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  373. # [15:44] <Hixie> annevk2: well if it is too tricky we can always give up and do something else :-)
  374. # [15:45] <annevk2> Hixie, e.g. further overloading of existing methods, etc.
  375. # [15:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: Web DOM Core?
  376. # [15:45] <annevk2> diving and hiking
  377. # [15:46] <jgraham> Hixie: Yes but say you make a change that adds new steps to an existing algorithm, makes a few changes to conformance criteria and adds a few paragraphs of new material
  378. # [15:46] <jgraham> Then you end up with a bunch of ifdefs all over the place to try and seperate out the HTML6 stuff from the HTML5 stuff
  379. # [15:46] <Hixie> jgraham: we have a bunch of ifdefs already to do complete.html
  380. # [15:47] <Hixie> jgraham: it's not that big a problem
  381. # [15:47] <jgraham> Hixie: On such a fine-grained level? It seems like it should be a problem :)
  382. # [15:48] <Hixie> search for "END complete" in the source file
  383. # [15:49] <annevk2> Hixie, anyway, I don't have a better solution other than changing the way the W3C REC-track works and what you have works much better than what I do for XMLHttpRequest I think
  384. # [15:49] <annevk2> (which is trying to keep two documents in sync)
  385. # [15:49] <Hixie> on the long term i definitely think we should change the way the w3c REC track works, but that needs far more effort than i am willing to put out
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  406. # [17:03] <pesla\work> sigh, firefox always crashes on the html5 specs -.-
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  408. # [17:04] <Hixie> pesla\work: use http://whatwg.org/html5
  409. # [17:04] <Hixie> pesla\work: that works in firefox
  410. # [17:04] <annevk2> pesla\work, wrong channel to complain
  411. # [17:04] <pesla\work> Hixie: sweet :)
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  414. # [17:05] <Hixie> pesla\work: if you need the one-page version, try http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/?slow-browser
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  417. # [17:08] <pesla\work> annevk2: Man, I just needed someone to listen to my grief! ;)
  418. # [17:08] <pesla\work> Hixie: the /html5 method works perfectly :)
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  421. # [17:13] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html#htmlcollection-0
  422. # [17:13] <Philip`> "nthnthnth(&*@%WN@%HM)%25"
  423. # [17:14] <Philip`> Hixie: I'm not sure that's valid IDL
  424. # [17:14] <Hixie> yeah, trying to fix that. somehow my script thought i'd fixed it (which i had in the source) and so was refusing to regen the files
  425. # [17:14] <Hixie> ironically, it was there to test that the new webidl check in the pipeline was working
  426. # [17:14] <Hixie> (i've integrated dom's service into my update script)
  427. # [17:15] <Philip`> Ah
  428. # [17:17] <annevk2> pesla\work, just trying to find you a long term solution :p
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  476. # [19:22] <Hixie> ok well i tried doing what we were talking about earlier
  477. # [19:22] <Hixie> we'll see how it goes
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  479. # [19:30] <hober> Hixie: it seems like whatwg.org/html5 should redirect to the HTML5 draft
  480. # [19:30] <hober> maybe we could mint a whatwg.og/html redirect to current-work
  481. # [19:31] <Hixie> added /html
  482. # [19:31] <Hixie> i think people would find the full html spec more useful than the html5 spec
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  496. # [20:13] <jwalden> annevk2: actually, I was thinking old-school, Sinatra; never even heard of MGS before :-)
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  729. # [22:26] <smaug> "Your message to whatwg awaits moderator approval"
  730. # [22:26] <smaug> um
  731. # [22:27] <smaug> who is the moderator?
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  774. # [22:42] <Philip`> smaug: There is no moderator
  775. # [22:42] <Philip`> smaug: so your message will never be approved
  776. # [22:42] <Philip`> smaug: You have to be subscribed before posting
  777. # [22:44] <smaug> Philip`: I'm subscribed
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  780. # [22:44] <smaug> Philip`: the problem is that the email has apparently too many people CC'ed
  781. # [22:44] <smaug> (not that many, really)
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  784. # [22:45] <Philip`> smaug: Oh, okay
  785. # [22:45] <Philip`> smaug: CC less :-)
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  787. # [22:47] <smaug> Philip`: actually someone else CC'ed already so many people that couldn't really add new ones :)
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  943. # Session Close: Sat Dec 12 00:00:00 2009

The end :)