/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 29 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] <annevk> public-iri
  4. # [00:06] <annevk> what do you wanna ask foolip?
  5. # [00:11] <foolip> annevk: I want to ask if query string parsing should be a part of IRI bis, another IETF spec or maybe something else
  6. # [00:13] <foolip> IRI bis says "Specifications that define the syntax of any of the above components MAY divide them further and define smaller parts to be components according to this document."
  7. # [00:14] <foolip> I'm not really sure what exactly that means though
  8. # [00:15] <foolip> I've reverse engineered PHP, ASP (VBScript) and JSP a bit and they seem to work mostly in compatible ways, only interesting differences are in how they treat malformed %XX entities
  9. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Doesn't Perl do some totally different thing involving semicolons?
  10. # [00:17] <foolip> AryehGregor: aha, might that be the source of the mysterious W3C suggestion that implementations handle both & and ; as a separator?
  11. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> I dunno, I just know that Perl apps tend to use semicolons where I'd expect ampersands.
  12. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> E.g.: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commit;h=6b7b284958d47b77d06745b36bc7f36dab769d9b
  13. # [00:18] <foolip> I know very little about Perl, is there even a standard module used for this kind of thing?
  14. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Perl seems to have standard modules for everything.
  15. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> I don't do Perl either, though.
  16. # [00:19] <foolip> meh
  17. # [00:19] <foolip> sounds worthwhile investigating though
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  21. # [00:25] <Philip`> foolip: The "CGI" module is the standard#
  22. # [00:25] <Philip`> s/#//
  23. # [00:26] <Philip`> The other standard is the regexps in whatever tutorials/examples people copy-and-paste argument-splitting code from
  24. # [00:26] <foolip> Philip`: learning about CGI feels like going back in time :)
  25. # [00:26] <Philip`> The other other standard is probably whatever mod_perl does
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  27. # [00:27] <Philip`> foolip: Perl often uses the CGI module API even if the implementation is not actually based on CGI
  28. # [00:27] <foolip> Philip`: ok, thanks
  29. # [00:28] <Philip`> CGI.pm splits on /[&;]/
  30. # [00:28] <Philip`> then it splits key/value on the first =
  31. # [00:28] <Philip`> (or puts everything in key if no value)
  32. # [00:29] <Philip`> (and sets value to "")
  33. # [00:29] <Philip`> then it unescapes key, and unescapes value
  34. # [00:29] <foolip> sounds like everyone else appart from the ;
  35. # [00:30] <Philip`> where unescape finds /%(?:([0-9a-fA-F]{2})|u([0-9a-fA-F]{4}))/ and decodes as hex
  36. # [00:30] <annevk> foolip, it seems you can parse it however you like
  37. # [00:30] <annevk> much like you can parse /foo/bar however you like on the server
  38. # [00:30] <Philip`> unless you're running on EBCDIC in which case it finds /%([0-9a-fA-F]{2})/ and decodes as ASCII hex
  39. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> :/
  40. # [00:31] <Philip`> Oh, and unescape replaces '+' with ' ' before that
  41. # [00:31] <foolip> annevk: yes, but the problem is that the media fragments WG wants define something on top of something that looks like a query string
  42. # [00:32] <annevk> hmm
  43. # [00:32] <foolip> hmm, %u422A is actually a valid percent escape?
  44. # [00:32] <foolip> I've never seen that format actually
  45. # [00:32] <annevk> and they expect it to be processed client-side?
  46. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Valid for Perl, I guess.
  47. # [00:33] <foolip> annevk: client side for #t=10 and server-side for ?t=10
  48. # [00:33] <annevk> it seems to me they should stick to #syntax and define some kind of HTTP header
  49. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Isn't there some standard for encoding GET form data in query strings?
  50. # [00:33] <foolip> there is
  51. # [00:33] <foolip> in HTML5
  52. # [00:33] <foolip> but none for decoding
  53. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  54. # [00:34] <foolip> that I have found anyway
  55. # [00:34] <foolip> #!/usr/bin/perl -w
  56. # [00:34] <foolip>
  57. # [00:34] <foolip> print "Content-type: text/html\n\n";
  58. # [00:34] <foolip> sorry :/
  59. # [00:34] <annevk> it seems a very fragile approach to me
  60. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> If this is just for media fragments, can't you just require it to behave like HTML5 requires it gets output? Or is there some reason you want compatibility with major scripting languages?
  61. # [00:34] <annevk> how many implementors reviewed this?
  62. # [00:34] * annevk can't really believe such a thing would get past basic review
  63. # [00:35] <foolip> the reason is that I'm meeting resistance when saying that the WG should define the processing requirements of this syntax, because presumably it belongs in another spec
  64. # [00:36] <foolip> annevk: I haven't seen any browser vendors apart from Opera (me) make significant noise since I joined
  65. # [00:36] <annevk> are they part of the group though?
  66. # [00:37] <annevk> I agree that some group should define processing requirements
  67. # [00:37] <foolip> I think some of the Apple guys are
  68. # [00:37] <foolip> annevk: UAs will of course just ignore the query string, but we need to know what to do for fragment URIs
  69. # [00:37] <annevk> if HTML5 keeps the definition of encoding it should also define how to decode imo
  70. # [00:37] <foolip> which part in particular do you think is fragile?
  71. # [00:38] * Hixie looks in
  72. # [00:38] <Hixie> wassup
  73. # [00:38] <annevk> that one part is for the client and one part for the server
  74. # [00:38] <annevk> and that the server part might use names already in use
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  76. # [00:38] <foolip> well HTML5 defines how to encode form data, what we are decoding isn't really form data, but I wouldn't mind if it's in HTML5
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  78. # [00:39] <foolip> annevk: it's not the intention that both be used at once, and in either case the server part is opaque to the client and vice versa
  79. # [00:40] <foolip> apparently the thinking is that in some cases doing the chopping on the server is faster, e.g. archive.org already implements this
  80. # [00:40] <foolip> annevk: what are "names already in use"?
  81. # [00:40] <annevk> what if I have a resource that's named /x?t=10
  82. # [00:40] <annevk> (not sure if t is the right param name)
  83. # [00:40] <foolip> that's right
  84. # [00:41] <annevk> Hixie, discussing media fragments
  85. # [00:41] <foolip> annevk: well, I doubt anyone ever considered that
  86. # [00:41] <annevk> Hixie, oh, and whether HTML5 should define how to decode <form> GET URLs besides defining how to encode them
  87. # [00:42] <foolip> in my feedback I have pretended the query string part doesn't exist, because it is irrelevant to UAs
  88. # [00:42] <annevk> foolip, also, apart from maybe the fragment URIs are supposed to be opaque
  89. # [00:43] <annevk> the server assigns meaning to it for sure, but with this the client and server have some shared understanding of a part of the URI
  90. # [00:43] <foolip> annevk: I mean that the server doesn't get to see the fragment part
  91. # [00:43] <annevk> it feels somewhat wrong
  92. # [00:43] <foolip> there is no shared part
  93. # [00:43] <annevk> foolip, sure, the query part
  94. # [00:43] <foolip> the UA doesn't (shouldn't) care about that
  95. # [00:44] <annevk> the UA generates it and the server is expected to respond in a particular way
  96. # [00:44] <annevk> if the UA doesn't, how does the server ever get it?
  97. # [00:44] <foolip> no, the UA doesn't generate a query string
  98. # [00:44] <foolip> the UA can either be clever and seek to the right place with simple heuristics and range requests, or use the HTTP headers that the WG is defining
  99. # [00:45] <annevk> so why do we have the query string?
  100. # [00:45] <annevk> and who will be using it?
  101. # [00:45] <foolip> e.g. archive.org uses it, or something that looks like it
  102. # [00:46] <foolip> however, I would be happy if it wasn't in the spec at all
  103. # [00:46] <annevk> I'm not sure why it would need to be defined
  104. # [00:46] <foolip> presumably because it is convenient to use the same syntax for both, or something like that
  105. # [00:47] <foolip> and because server-side implementations actually exist
  106. # [00:47] <Hixie> why would we need to define how to decode the query component? What's the interoperability concern?
  107. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> But you don't need standards if it's done purely on the server side . . .
  108. # [00:47] <Hixie> Surely each URL can only be read by one server
  109. # [00:48] <Hixie> so there's nothing to interoperate with
  110. # [00:48] <annevk> I guess the idea is to standardize a common API for media resources
  111. # [00:48] <foolip> Hixie: I'm not really interested in decoding a query string, I'm interested in decoding a fragment component which uses the same syntax as a query string
  112. # [00:48] <annevk> but I'm not sure why that needs to be standardized...
  113. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> The fragment component decoding can be done on UAs, so that needs to be standardized.
  114. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> In fact, it has to be done on UAs.
  115. # [00:49] <foolip> AryehGregor: exactly
  116. # [00:49] <Hixie> well surely the fragment component decoding would be defined by the spec that defines the fragment?
  117. # [00:49] <foolip> Hixie: that's what I've been trying to argue for
  118. # [00:49] <Hixie> sounds good to me
  119. # [00:49] <annevk> Hixie, well, the idea would be to define how servers can get the data out of the URL
  120. # [00:50] <foolip> however, I've been a bit thrown off by the query string issue it seems
  121. # [00:50] <annevk> Hixie, if you define how that works presumably you can swap the software that gets data out of the URL
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  123. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> Just define some subset of generally-used query string encoding.
  124. # [00:50] <Hixie> annevk: presumably that would be defined by the spec for that software
  125. # [00:50] <Hixie> annevk: different servers have different needs for how to parse query components
  126. # [00:51] <annevk> Hixie, it seems to me it's sort of an integral part of <form> submission
  127. # [00:51] <Hixie> e.g. http://example.com/?foo+bar vs http://example.com/?a=b&c=d vs http://example.com/a=b;c=d
  128. # [00:51] <Hixie> these are all valid query components
  129. # [00:51] <Hixie> but they need different parsing rules
  130. # [00:51] <foolip> it seems that one should do either (1) define how to parse a query string (probably in another spec) and reuse that definition for the fragment part in MF or (2) remove any mention of query strings from MF and just define how to parse the fragment component
  131. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I think you're missing a ? in the last.
  132. # [00:51] <Hixie> er yes
  133. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> foolip, (2) sounds more sensible. Just make up something simple.
  134. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> We don't define how to parse query strings for anything else, no reason to start for media fragments.
  135. # [00:53] <foolip> ok, I don't expect arguing this line is going to be easy though
  136. # [00:53] <foolip> I agree it makes the most sense however
  137. # [00:53] <foolip> will try writing an email suggesting as much tomorrow when my brain has slept
  138. # [00:56] <foolip> thanks all
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  312. # [05:47] <Zerxer> now that I'm in the right area.. messing around with the <audio> tag and I can't get ogg files to play nicely in firefox. keeps skipping. perhaps I am just using a bad encoder? suggestions?
  313. # [06:11] <Hixie> hard to tell without a sample page :-)
  314. # [06:12] <Hixie> (#developers on irc.mozilla.org may be able to help better with mozilla-specific issues, btw)
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  356. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: about media queries, is it a conformance error for a media query to use a media feature with a media type that it does not apply to?
  357. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> the spec does not seem to explicitly say it is a conformance error
  358. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> e.g., @media print and (scan: progressive)
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  372. # [11:11] <annevk> it's not
  373. # [11:11] <annevk> you could warn if you want
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  375. # [11:14] <annevk> http://bitworking.org/news/2009/12/xrd
  376. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK, I'll ask hsivonen if he thinks it's worth warning about
  377. # [11:15] <annevk> you could look up an old thread on media queries on www-style
  378. # [11:15] <annevk> hsivonen asked about this before
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  380. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK
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  382. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: found the thread
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  384. # [11:23] <annevk> cool
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  404. # [13:37] <Dashiva> annevk: And now we have two ladders to paint, twice the fun
  405. # [13:38] <annevk> it made me think of Microdata / RDFa mostly
  406. # [13:38] <annevk> though maybe there the problem is somewhat more scoped
  407. # [13:40] <Dashiva> Microdata and RDFa are which material you build the ladder from. Still out there, but somewhat more relevant than the color.
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  466. # [15:42] <annevk> anyone knows why Ubuntu 9.10 is no longer offered as installation option under updates?
  467. # [15:42] <annevk> pretty sure it was before
  468. # [15:42] <annevk> but I didn't do it because I thought there might be trouble
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  472. # [15:44] <annevk> http://guides.macrumors.com/MacBook_Pro_Buyer's_Guide is most excellent
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  475. # [15:45] <Dashiva> Would we be having this autobuffer thread at all without safari's bug?
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  477. # [15:46] <annevk> lots of talk, little practical impact
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  482. # [15:48] <wavded> Does anyone have any experience with the Firefox 3.6 File API implementation?
  483. # [15:49] <wavded> I'm trying to do a XHR POST with file read in with FileReader, but I want to add more params to the post. xhr.sendAsBinary() doesn't seem to allow me to do that...
  484. # [15:49] <wavded> Any help would be appreciated
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  486. # [15:50] <annevk> you prolly need to wait until they do an impl of some XHR2 extensions
  487. # [15:50] <annevk> i.e. the FormData object
  488. # [15:51] <wavded> The docs said you could use xhr.send() with a FileReader but my attempts don't seem to work..
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  490. # [15:52] <wavded> Hmm... there docs for XHR2 somewhere?
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  492. # [15:53] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/ has the latest
  493. # [15:53] <wavded> thx
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  524. # [17:52] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Nope, the entire problem is spawned from Safari's bug causing it to autobuffer everything. If it was already acting like Firefox, then no one would have complained, and we wouldn't have people trying to draw ridiculous distinctions like autobuffer=auto being somehow different than autobuffer not being present at all (let alone autobuffer=no actually having a usefully different...
  525. # [17:52] <TabAtkins> ...definition).
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  562. # [20:40] <annevk> hmm, I only get it if I run update-manager -d
  563. # [20:40] <annevk> but then sites also advice not to install it...
  564. # [20:40] * annevk is confused
  565. # [20:40] <annevk> (still about Ubuntu 9.100
  566. # [20:40] <annevk> )
  567. # [20:40] <gratz|home> get what?
  568. # [20:40] <gratz|home> oh right
  569. # [20:41] <gratz|home> what advises not to install it and why?
  570. # [20:43] <annevk> there's a series here: http://www.insidesocal.com/click/2009/11/pulling-the-trigger-on-ubuntu.html
  571. # [20:43] <annevk> since I think I have a similar card for video I'll wait
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  573. # [20:43] <annevk> especially with my MacBook being in repairs and all :)
  574. # [20:45] <gratz|home> heh
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  576. # [20:51] <wavded> annevk - seems as though you are right, I haven't been able to find anyway in FF 3.6 to push file data via XHR along with other POST data. :-(
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  580. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> annevk, you're on 9.04, not 8.04 or anything, right? Maybe apt-get update will fix it, if it thinks it's a development release for some crazy reason.
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  583. # [21:18] <annevk> AryehGregor, yeah, I'm on 9.04
  584. # [21:19] <annevk> and I found a way to make the upgrade option appear, but I decided to wait
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  604. # [22:35] <foolip> hmm, which spec defines encodeURIComponent?
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  608. # [22:44] <Philip`> foolip: ECMAScript
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  612. # [22:58] <foolip> Philip`: found it, thanks
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  617. # [23:08] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yo
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  619. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hej
  620. # [23:09] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  621. # [23:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: maybe checking for valuelessness and lessthanness should be in the tokenizer instead of the switch block
  622. # [23:10] * MikeSmith takes a look
  623. # [23:10] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: also, i think case INVALID: is redundant with default:
  624. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> about checking for valuelessness and lessthanness, I think I made a conscious choice to do it the current way but can't recall why
  625. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> but I will look again
  626. # [23:12] <MikeSmith> about INVALID, I guess that's true -- I'll remove it
  627. # [23:12] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@124-171-24-116.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  628. # [23:14] <MikeSmith> ah
  629. # [23:14] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I remember
  630. # [23:15] <MikeSmith> the reason I don't do the valuelessness check in the tokenizer is that I was thinking, we don't want to report valuelessness for invalid attributes
  631. # [23:15] <MikeSmith> I would think we'd just want to report it only for the case of attributes that we already know are valid
  632. # [23:15] <zcorpan> why not?
  633. # [23:16] <MikeSmith> because it will cause two error messages to be generated for each invalid attribute, if it lacks a value
  634. # [23:16] <zcorpan> yeah
  635. # [23:17] <MikeSmith> I guess my rationale was, if the attribute is invalid, it doesn't matter to the user whether it lacks a value
  636. # [23:17] <zcorpan> fair enough
  637. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> about lessthanness, where is the code checking that now?
  638. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> oh
  639. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> you mean the literal "<" character
  640. # [23:19] <zcorpan> yes :)
  641. # [23:19] <MikeSmith> I guess I could move that check
  642. # [23:20] <MikeSmith> hmm, but again, that's the same kind of case
  643. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> if I move it into the tokenizer, it will mean that you'd get two error messages for an invalid attribute if it has a value with "<"
  644. # [23:21] <zcorpan> a < will cause browsers to ignore the whole pi
  645. # [23:21] <zcorpan> an unknown pseudoatt won't
  646. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  647. # [23:21] <zcorpan> same with valueless
  648. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> I see
  649. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> that trumps the two-message issue
  650. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> I will move those now and push it up to qa-dev when I'm done
  651. # [23:24] <MikeSmith> btw, I also made some fixes in media-query handling
  652. # [23:24] <zcorpan> did you fix case-sensitiveness?
  653. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> for xml-stylesheet pseudo-attribute names? yeah
  654. # [23:27] <MikeSmith> and also handling of XSLT indicators that have parameters
  655. # [23:28] <zcorpan> yep
  656. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> and added a warning if type/subtype is something other than text/xsl or text/css
  657. # [23:28] <zcorpan> that's in the patch i'm looking at
  658. # [23:30] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i think there are some things that could be removed in the tokenizer, given that some characters are not allowed in xml
  659. # [23:30] <MikeSmith> OK
  660. # [23:30] <zcorpan> like case '\u000C': and case '\u0000':
  661. # [23:30] <zcorpan> but maybe it's not worth it to fiddle with something that works :)
  662. # [23:31] <MikeSmith> nah, I think it's worth getting it right
  663. # [23:31] <MikeSmith> so I can remove those
  664. # [23:34] <zcorpan> what does silentLineFeed() do?
  665. # [23:35] <zcorpan> '\r' also can't appear in pi data
  666. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> I am not sure what the purpose of silentLineFeed() is.. I just inherited it from the original copy/paste
  667. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> but I think basically it's for handling the CRLF case for HTML parsing as the spec requires
  668. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> to drop the CR
  669. # [23:38] <zcorpan> likely
  670. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> so what should I do for the "\r" case? emit a specific error?
  671. # [23:39] <zcorpan> remove, since it can't happen
  672. # [23:39] <zcorpan> \r is normalized to \n
  673. # [23:39] <zcorpan> by the xml parser
  674. # [23:48] * Quits: miketaylr (n=miketayl@38.117.156.163) (Remote closed the connection)
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  676. # [23:58] <zcorpan> + // TODO warn about apos (IE) and TRADE (Opera)
  677. # [23:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: &TRADE; works in opera now
  678. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> OK, I can remove that comment
  679. # Session Close: Wed Dec 30 00:00:00 2009

The end :)