/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 08 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <cardona507> webster42 - google.com uses the HTML5 doctype - if you consider that and impressive site
  4. # [00:01] <webster42> cardona507: I don't. It's an impressive company however. :)
  5. # [00:01] <cardona507> hehe - true
  6. # [00:01] <webster42> what I mean is, have there been any cool webapps yet that take advantage of all of this stuff? (and don't care about IE)
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  8. # [00:03] <cardona507> Google wave uses some html5 - it's pretty cool - but the spec isn't done yet - so there aren't any killer apps that I am aware of yet
  9. # [00:03] <webster42> I suppose it's pointless to ask about "when will the spec be done-er
  10. # [00:03] <webster42> "
  11. # [00:03] <cardona507> but quite a bit of the spec is implemented in modern browsers - so if you are creative you can cook up a nice html5 app
  12. # [00:04] <cardona507> done.... good question - who wants to field that one?
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  14. # [00:04] <webster42> alright, well I have to run right now but I'll come back soon and explore this further
  15. # [00:04] <webster42> bye for now
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  19. # [00:17] <cardona507> Philip`: or tabatkins - now that I have my svg code - how do I view it? Of course I can look at it in AI - but when I make it code and put it online it only looks like code in my browser http://cardonadesigns.com/butt.svg (yeah it says butt tab)
  20. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> cardona507: Your webserver is sending it with a content-type of text/plain.
  21. # [00:19] <cardona507> so I need to change htaccess to allow the mime type?
  22. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Make it send as image/svg+xml and it'll work.
  23. # [00:23] <cardona507> cool - TabAtkins - it worked
  24. # [00:23] <cardona507> it doesnt scale very gracefully though -
  25. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> It seems to scale fine. It's just that your viewport isn't scaling.
  26. # [00:28] <cardona507> so how does it look in to relation to canvas line cap butt?
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  28. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> cardona507: It looks similar. Is there supposed to be some fuzzing on the edges, or is that just an artifact of me scaling up the png?
  29. # [00:34] <cardona507> there aren't supposed to be fuzzy edges
  30. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Okay, then they look roughly the same, modulo some slight color differences and positioning changes.
  31. # [00:35] <cardona507> yeah - but the first was a png and the second was svg -
  32. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Yes?
  33. # [00:35] <cardona507> nm - Philip` asked me to redo my png as svg and I was asking for feedback
  34. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> What I meant is, I see a black rectangle partially overlapping a bluish rectangle in both.
  35. # [00:37] <cardona507> and do you think that is an appropriate graphic for the part about linecap="butt" ?
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  39. # [00:40] <cardona507> section 4.8.11.1.5
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  41. # [00:44] <Philip`> cardona507: Looks reasonable to me :-)
  42. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah, seems fine.
  43. # [00:45] <Philip`> I think it's nice to have these things in SVG partly since scalability is good (particularly when printing) and partly because it's good to have in an editable format
  44. # [00:45] <cardona507> cool - I"ll make the other 2 correct and in svg - do you recommend that I do any future graphics for the spec in svg?
  45. # [00:45] <Philip`> so someone can make further changes without having to start from scratch
  46. # [00:46] <Philip`> (though I think the spec still needs a PNG fallback for obsolete browsers, like IE8)
  47. # [00:47] <Philip`> I'd prefer SVG, but my opinion has no particular weight so there's no reason to take it into account :-)
  48. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> Philip`, when I pointed out a Unicode character that didn't render on Firefox/Chrome on the latest Ubuntu, Ian told me to get better fonts and didn't change the text. So to heck with fallbacks? :)
  49. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> You *should* get better fonts, though.
  50. # [00:54] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Given that Microsoft people have asked questions about canvas, and assuming that Microsoft people use IE, there would be practical benefits to having fallbacks for those diagrams
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  52. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> That's not a good assumption.
  53. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> Yeah, probably.
  54. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> From what I know.
  55. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, seriously?
  56. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> You know people on the IE team who don't use IE as their primary browser?
  57. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  58. # [00:55] <AryehGregor> Can you name names, or is this secret?
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  77. # [01:37] <yhjGvlkP]> ?DCC SEND "¬??3ÜZ¸?z??·??+?Ì?<?AE7ž?ë? `???&÷??r????lö?Ô??«???û??yA?l???????"?À×?" 0 0 0
  78. # [01:37] <yhjGvlkP]> ?DCC SEND "u??d`?~A?Ô????º?)ßXdL??'?2&È?`hù??R???????ã~???,F´ ??e?®Ô?¸½?PÝ_6w??¹?" 0 0 0
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  80. # [01:40] <Dashiva> I thought that bug was out of fashion
  81. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> Apparently, since no one quit.
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  86. # [02:39] <jcranmer> there are people still affected by it
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  91. # [02:59] <Dashiva> Yeah, people who for some reason refuse to upgrade
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  94. # [03:05] <Hixie> MikeSmithXX: can't check in the html5 spec changes
  95. # [03:05] <Hixie> MikeSmithXX: it's still blocked
  96. # [03:06] <AryehGregor> It just randomly occurred to me that you could avoid compatibility problems and still encourage Flash to die by using <video> as fallback for Flash, instead of the other way around.
  97. # [03:06] <AryehGregor> So your site still works even if Flash isn't installed, even if not quite how you'd like it.
  98. # [03:10] <cardona507> interesting thought ---- the part about encouraging flash to die that is :)
  99. # [03:17] <AryehGregor> I should say, your site might still work if Flash isn't installed.
  100. # [03:23] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Membership "query failed"?
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  103. # [03:30] <AryehGregor> Hixie, did you get an answer about criteria for splitting other features out of the spec?
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  112. # [04:15] <MikeSmithXX> Hixie: sorry, I'm talking a look at it again now
  113. # [04:16] <MikeSmithXX> *taking
  114. # [04:22] <MikeSmithXX> I can find no lock files in the corresponding directories in filesystem for the cvs server
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  116. # [04:29] <Dashiva> I note that the WG decision about microdata fails to mention that the "significant deployment success" of RDFa isn't always real RDFa, just something that looks like it
  117. # [04:29] <Dashiva> Does that mean XHTML has had significant success with people using an XHTML doctype, but still non-well-formed and served as text/html?
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  124. # [05:16] <karlcow> http://coolreader.org/crengine.htm
  125. # [05:16] <karlcow> CREngine is an open source E-Book viewer library development project.
  126. # [05:18] <karlcow> 2 different DOM tree implementations
  127. # [05:19] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBReader
  128. # [05:19] <karlcow> Supported formats include EPUB, FictionBook, HTML, plucker, PalmDoc, zTxt, TCR, RTF, OEB, Non-DRM'ed mobipocket and plain-text.
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  140. # [06:10] <karlcow> http://raphaeljs.com/gear.html
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  142. # [06:19] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah, basically the criteria for keeping it was "is it mature, has it been successful in the market, and is it something that could not be reused in other specs", based on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jan/att-0218/issue-76-decision.html
  143. # [06:30] <Dashiva> Part of me would love to see what happened if someone decided to apply those criteria to the entire spec
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  153. # [07:17] <othermaciej> Hixie: what's up with the w3c cvs server?
  154. # [07:18] <Hixie> not sure, MikeSmithXX said he'd look into it
  155. # [07:20] <othermaciej> it picked a bad time to pitch a fit
  156. # [07:20] <othermaciej> but then, I guess it's always a bad time
  157. # [07:20] <othermaciej> anyway, I posted a CfC to publish the new document
  158. # [07:20] <Hixie> it's been refusing changes for a few days
  159. # [07:22] <Hixie> might as well put one out for http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/2dcontext/Overview.html?content-type=text/html as well
  160. # [07:24] <othermaciej> if you ask on the list I'll do it
  161. # [07:24] <Hixie> k, will do shortly
  162. # [07:25] <Hixie> got some maintenance to do first
  163. # [07:25] <othermaciej> k
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  168. # [07:41] <MikeSmithXX> othermaciej: what's up is that there seems to be a stale lock file for the last 36 hours or so now
  169. # [07:41] <othermaciej> MikeSmithXX: ugh
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  171. # [07:41] <othermaciej> MikeSmithXX: do you have shell access to that machine? should be easy to remove manually if so
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  173. # [07:42] <Hixie> i guess with the splt out microdata section having he vocabularies in it, we don't need the separate vocab specs any more
  174. # [07:42] <Hixie> should i cvs remove them?
  175. # [07:42] <Hixie> it'd make my life easier
  176. # [07:42] <MikeSmithXX> othermaciej: yeah, I have shell access to the cvs repository, but when I go into the cvs filesystem there, I see all the ,v files but not lock files anywhere
  177. # [07:42] <MikeSmithXX> Hixie: yeah, sure
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  180. # [07:44] <MikeSmithXX> the messages say that its waiting on a lock for user "www-data", which leads me to believe that the problem is there's a hung cvs process on the dev.w3.org mirror
  181. # [07:44] <MikeSmithXX> but I don't have shell access to that machine
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  183. # [07:45] <MikeSmithXX> as soon as someone for Europe systems team gets on, I think it should get fixed pretty quickly
  184. # [07:45] <MikeSmithXX> but I do want to find out for the future what the hell the cause of the problem was
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  191. # [08:01] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: do you see any cvs processes running on dev.w3.org?
  192. # [08:01] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: if you have root you could just kill those maybe
  193. # [08:02] <othermaciej> I can't even remember how cvs does lockfiles
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  196. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I have no shell access to dev.w3.org so can't check ps or top or anything there
  197. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> csv docs say that it uses lock files with "#" prefixes but I find none of those in the repository
  198. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> I do find some LOCKS directories but none that correspond to the html5 spec dir
  199. # [08:31] <othermaciej> weird
  200. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> maybe for the future I can ask for root access to dev.w3.org
  201. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> actually, not maybe -- I will ask
  202. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> I will say that often when I report problems with dev.w3.org, the response I've gotten from systems team is the response to the "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." complaint
  203. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> I have been told that dev.w3.or was never intended to be a platform for publishing documents, but instead only for making software available
  204. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> and that it is underpowered as a publishing server and so we should not be surprised when it has problems
  205. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> to which my response is that we and many others have in fact been using it as a publishing platform for a long while, so maybe it's time we made it work the way it should
  206. # [08:37] <othermaciej> does the w3c have any other way to maintain and track editor's drafts?
  207. # [08:38] <othermaciej> in any case, it seems like a stuck lock is something that should just be fixed
  208. # [08:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: what happens when you ask "so what are we supposed to use for public version control of editor's drafts?"?
  209. # [08:40] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  210. # [08:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: what is the about:blank synchronicity in HTML5 based on?
  211. # [08:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: that is, which engine did you reverse engineer?
  212. # [08:43] <Hixie> everyone does it and pages depend on it, iirc
  213. # [08:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: Gecko does something in that direction but not exactly
  214. # [08:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: see http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/msg/9853d685c3fc9652
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  216. # [08:46] <Hixie> i saw that earlier
  217. # [08:46] <Hixie> i'm happy to make the spec say whatever the browser vendors are willing to implement
  218. # [08:46] <Hixie> (as far as this goes)
  219. # [08:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess I'll have to ask Boris to state what that is
  220. # [08:47] <hsivonen> I don't understand the docshell well enough
  221. # [08:47] <Hixie> it would be ideal if you could get the webkit guys on board as well
  222. # [08:47] <Hixie> when i talk to them they seem to take this about:blank-is-synchronous thing pretty seriously
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  224. # [08:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: is about:blank loading in WebKit really truly synchronous always?
  225. # [08:55] <hsivonen> as in: does the about:blank DOM always get created without a trip through the event loop when a browsing context is created or navigated to about:blank?
  226. # [08:55] <hsivonen> how do the events fire?
  227. # [08:55] <Hixie> dunno, test it
  228. # [08:55] <hsivonen> I guess I have to write a pure-HTML test for this
  229. # [08:56] <hsivonen> Mozilla has tests that use a XUL harness
  230. # [08:56] <hsivonen> and the tests run in the same XUL harness so that when the events break, it's hard to see what broke
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  236. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie: lock file cleared
  237. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> you should be able to commit now
  238. # [09:39] <Hixie> thanks
  239. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> sorry for the ridiculously long delay
  240. # [09:42] <Hixie> no worries
  241. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> I will try to get root access to that server so I can get it fixed quickly if/when it happens again
  242. # [09:47] * MikeSmith sees a new postmsg subdir
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  245. # [09:57] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm hitting 500s on pms
  246. # [10:00] * Hixie tries staggering the requests a bit
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  253. # [10:24] <jgraham> Hixie: That sounds bad. Is it timing out or just being really slow?
  254. # [10:24] <Hixie> it was actually returning 500s. i staggered my requests and it worked ok
  255. # [10:24] <Hixie> i was probably just hammering it too hard
  256. # [10:24] <Hixie> i mean, four specs that size of html5 all at once will do that
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  263. # [10:36] <jgraham> Hixie: Oh I thought you were talking about a time of 500s not a response code of 500
  264. # [10:36] * Parts: cohitre (n=cohitre@c-24-18-158-106.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  265. # [10:37] <Hixie> oh heh
  266. # [10:46] <zcorpan__> <caption> is not usable anywhere
  267. # [10:46] <zcorpan__> it's dropped completely outside tables
  268. # [10:46] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-160-210.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  269. # [10:47] <zcorpan__> and is clusterfucked inside tables
  270. # [10:47] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-160-210.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  271. # [10:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan__: even in the right place in tables?
  272. # [10:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: I assume he means for use with <figure>
  273. # [10:48] <hsivonen> ah
  274. # [10:48] <zcorpan__> yes
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  277. # [10:50] <zcorpan__> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/346
  278. # [10:51] <annevk> way to go for still finding energy to put into that rathole
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  282. # [10:58] <annevk> should it say a little more than 2D Context?
  283. # [10:58] <annevk> e.g. 2D Graphics Context
  284. # [10:59] <hsivonen> What's the MPEG-U thing? Is MPEG forking a time-frozen snapshot of the Platform for consumer electronics?
  285. # [11:00] <Hixie> annevk: *shrug*
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  287. # [11:01] <annevk> mkay, someone else will argue that for me at some point then
  288. # [11:01] <annevk> and if not I guess 2D Context works...
  289. # [11:01] * Quits: payman (n=payman@pat.se.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  290. # [11:02] <Hixie> heh
  291. # [11:02] <Lachy> hsivonen, AIUI, MPEG-U is some Widgets related thing
  292. # [11:02] <Lachy> other than that, I don't know much about it
  293. # [11:03] <Dashiva> From the graphic, it seems the MPEG part replaces HTML (or browsers) in the architecture
  294. # [11:06] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  295. # [11:24] <Hixie> ok bed time now
  296. # [11:24] <Hixie> "early" meeting tomorrow
  297. # [11:24] <Hixie> nn
  298. # [11:24] <gsnedders> "early" == before 12?
  299. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> maybe MPEG-U is related to CE-HTML
  300. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> hmm, or maybe not
  301. # [11:30] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  303. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> anybody know roughly how long it take to build GTK+ on a normal machine?
  304. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> I have a build running and wondering if I should wait for it finish or go get something to eat and come back later
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  309. # [11:43] <Philip`> MikeSmith: It took 1301 seconds to compile on my machine
  310. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> Philip`: ah OK
  311. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> thanks
  312. # [11:45] * MikeSmith now tries to remember when he started the build
  313. # [11:45] <Philip`> (That's the first time I've ever used Gentoo's emerge.log)
  314. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: is there a word in Finnish that sounds anything like "roryu" or "loryu" ?
  315. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> something to do with a type of sauna?
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  320. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> hmm, it seems Finnish löyly becomes ロウリュウ (roryuu) in Japanese
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  337. # [12:53] * workmad3 is now known as wm3|deicing
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  339. # [13:04] <Dashiva> What are the major types of non-browser user agents that use and respect mime types?
  340. # [13:11] <annevk> no hostile questions
  341. # [13:16] <virtuelv> hsivonen: MPEG-U: What you said, and proprietary extensions
  342. # [13:17] <virtuelv> see http://concolato.blog.telecom-paristech.fr/widgets/mpeg-u/
  343. # [13:18] <Dashiva> annevk: How do I phrase it less hostile?
  344. # [13:19] <virtuelv> note that the widget specification makes it possible to ship, say, windows executables, and still conform to the spec
  345. # [13:19] <annevk> phrasing it less doesn't make it less :p
  346. # [13:20] <Dashiva> I'm still wondering, though. Magic numbers and file extensions seem quite popular.
  347. # [13:20] <virtuelv> hsivonen: except, it doesn't seem time-frozen
  348. # [13:20] <virtuelv> at least not based on the spec linked from that page
  349. # [13:21] <annevk> Dashiva, I can't really think of anything
  350. # [13:21] <hsivonen> virtuelv: thanks
  351. # [13:21] <hsivonen> virtuelv: widget specs allowing Windows executables doesn't seem quite nice
  352. # [13:22] <hsivonen> Dashiva: email apps deciding between text/plain, text/enriched, text/html (and maybe text/rtf?) email bodies for rendering
  353. # [13:23] <Dashiva> Yeah, that's a good one. Email probably has more reliable labeling too.
  354. # [13:23] <virtuelv> hsivonen: P&C is a packaging format specification
  355. # [13:23] <hsivonen> Dashiva: for message bodies maybe. I'd expect attachment labeling to be semirandom
  356. # [13:23] <hsivonen> Dashiva: but I don't know
  357. # [13:24] <virtuelv> hsivonen: i've skimmed to the end of that MPEG-U spec now, it also seems to be a user-agent specification and interaction via DLNA
  358. # [13:24] <Dashiva> Attachments probably get by on having a filename
  359. # [13:24] * hsivonen wonders who actually runs a DLNA network at home
  360. # [13:25] <hsivonen> attaching a small computer to a TV seems like a more versatile and reliable solution
  361. # [13:25] <Philip`> SVN uses MIME types to determine text vs binary - does that count?
  362. # [13:26] <virtuelv> hsivonen: All of this is coming, like it or not
  363. # [13:26] <virtuelv> http://www.opera.com/business/solutions/devices/tv/
  364. # [13:26] <Dashiva> Philip`: Not much, if it's just a "starts with text/ or doesn't" check
  365. # [13:27] <Dashiva> Although I suppose if the mime-type is stored, then applications accessing the svn repo might use the mime-type for useful things
  366. # [13:28] <Philip`> Many web crawlers look at MIME types to work out whether they've got an HTML file they should parse and explore, or another file they should index in other ways
  367. # [13:28] * hsivonen wonders how seriously consumer electronics are going to handle security updates
  368. # [13:28] <Philip`> Dashiva: Browsers accessing the SVN web interface use the mime-type for useful things :-)
  369. # [13:28] <Philip`> Not sure about other client programs, though
  370. # [13:29] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Depends on how seriously they take consumers bricking their devices on botched firmware upgrades?
  371. # [13:30] <virtuelv> hsivonen: I dunno, but my TV has upgradable firmware
  372. # [13:30] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I don't know if TV vendors are more concerned with bricking or delivering timely updates for cross-Origin security holes
  373. # [13:30] <hsivonen> (I suppose hijacking local files is a bit less of an issue on TVs)
  374. # [13:30] * Philip` wonders if there's statistics on how many people upgrade firmware
  375. # [13:31] <Philip`> (I'd assume it's about 0%, in cases where it's not entirely automatic)
  376. # [13:31] <hsivonen> especially when one's foremost expectation is that firmware updates *remove* functionality by blacklisting leaked DRM keys
  377. # [13:32] <hsivonen> I assume Sony keeps statistics on firmware updates, because the manual said they reserve the right to track the MAC ids of network-connected TVs
  378. # [13:32] <hsivonen> (or something along those lines; I've never connected a Sony TV to a network)
  379. # [13:33] <jgraham> I assume that TVs will have mandatory auto updates when connected to a network
  380. # [13:35] * hsivonen wonders where Sony, Samsung, etc. expect end users to obtain their MPEG-4 in non-standard container video files for DLNA viewing
  381. # [13:36] <Philip`> From their proprietary online stores?
  382. # [13:36] <hsivonen> do they have online stores where one can buy Matroska files without DRM?
  383. # [13:38] * hsivonen wonders if bugmail arrives late or if Hixie kept fixing bugs past his announced bed time
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  392. # [14:27] <Lachy> hsivonen, firmware updates that remove leaked DRM keys are, IIRC, somewhat forced upon users when they insert discs produced and bought after the blacklisting.
  393. # [14:28] <Lachy> so if a disc says the device's key isn't valid, it won't be able to play the disc without a firmware upgrade
  394. # [14:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: ah. I don't really know how this works.
  395. # [14:28] <Lachy> ok, here's a brief summary:
  396. # [14:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: I was thinking of HDCP over HDMI stopping to support a picture source
  397. # [14:29] <hsivonen> it would suck pretty badly if one's video card stopped interoperating with a TV because the TV downloaded a blacklist with the GPU on it
  398. # [14:30] <hsivonen> due to the GPU having gotten cracked elsewhere
  399. # [14:30] <hsivonen> or something like that
  400. # [14:30] <Lachy> Hardware vendors for blu-ray players are issued device keys that are stored somewhere in the firmware, usually in a way that's difficult for end users to access.
  401. # [14:30] <hsivonen> I don't even know what the threat scenarios are here
  402. # [14:31] <Lachy> The blu-ray discs have information on them pertaining to the set of keys that are valid. (This isn't just a simple list, it uses some complicated mathematics that I won't even try to explain)
  403. # [14:31] <Lachy> The AACS have a way to blacklist device keys by altering that information on future discs
  404. # [14:32] <hsivonen> Lachy: does this affect the HDCP hop in any way?
  405. # [14:32] <hsivonen> Lachy: does the TV and the Blu-Ray player need to be updated in sync or something like that?
  406. # [14:32] <Lachy> I don't believe so. If the player is able to decode and play the disc, the HDCP is a separate encryption step
  407. # [14:33] * Quits: ciaran_lee (i=leecn@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  408. # [14:33] <Lachy> but I'm not an expert on this and my summary was an overly simplified summary
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  411. # [14:34] <hsivonen> anyway, this DRM stuff isn't a good background for motivating users to approve the installation of browser or Flash updates to their TVs
  412. # [14:36] <Lachy> I've never had a TV that could accept firmware updates, and until it was mentioned a few minutes ago, it didn't occur to me that anyone would do it.
  413. # [14:37] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.226)
  414. # [14:37] <hsivonen> I have one that could accept updates, but the TV works now as a display for a Mac Mini, so I haven't taken any chances with updates
  415. # [14:38] <hsivonen> I've never tried the built-in networking or the widget engine on the TV
  416. # [14:38] * Philip` vaguely remembers an explanation that the complicated mathematics is kind of like there's a binary tree with device keys as leafs, and the disc can contain a set of keys corresponding to nodes in the tree, where each node key can be combined with a device key in a subtree of that node, in order to decode the disc
  417. # [14:38] <hsivonen> in fact, I've never even connected it to a TV antenna cord
  418. # [14:38] <Philip`> and so the first discs just need a key at the root node, and later you can blacklist any arbitrary device key by only giving node keys at the nodes that aren't its ancestors (i.e. by giving O(depth of tree) keys)
  419. # [14:38] <Philip`> which seems like a clever approach
  420. # [14:39] * jgraham has never had a TV that required updates but does have a Wii that does (and sometimes has mandatory updates)
  421. # [14:40] <jgraham> (and a Wii and a TV are about the same level of consuer hardware as far as I'm concerned)
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  423. # [14:40] <jgraham> *consumer
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  427. # [14:41] <Lachy> mandatory updates when DRM is involved can be a real pain. I've been affected by Spotify's mandatory DRM updates, which wouldn't allow me to play my songs on my iphone till I upgraded the spotify app
  428. # [14:42] <Lachy> that's what made me decide to stop paying for spotify
  429. # [14:44] * jgraham hasn't had any problems with spotify
  430. # [14:44] <jgraham> (from that point of view)
  431. # [14:44] <jgraham> (although I don't have an iPhone or anything fancy)
  432. # [14:45] <hsivonen> I haven't really used Spotify on S60 after installing it
  433. # [14:45] <hsivonen> I generally don't listen to music while mobile
  434. # [14:47] <hsivonen> does XML make it possible to introduce carriage returns in PI data?
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  436. # [14:48] <Lachy> I don't see how that would be possible
  437. # [14:48] <gsnedders> "To simplify the tasks of applications, the XML processor MUST behave as if it normalized all line breaks in external parsed entities (including the document entity) on input, before parsing, by translating both the two-character sequence #xD #xA and any #xD that is not followed by #xA to a single #xA character."
  438. # [14:48] <gsnedders> I can't see any way past that
  439. # [14:49] <hsivonen> and NCRs aren't supported in PIs
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  448. # [15:04] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the boxes on whatwg.org could benefit from some border-radius
  449. # [15:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: make it also a double border so that WebKit has more reason to gets its anti-aliasing act together with double-line rounded corners
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  459. # [15:30] <Lachy> http://sleeptalkinman.blogspot.com/
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  467. # [16:04] <Lachy> I started working on the change proposals for figure and details. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal:_figure_and_details
  468. # [16:05] <annevk> details was removed from the spec
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  470. # [16:05] <Lachy> oh, when?
  471. # [16:06] <Lachy> it's still in the complete.html version
  472. # [16:06] <annevk> this morning
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  474. # [16:08] <Lachy> damn, this is going to be confusing if the W3C HTML5 gets so out of sync with the WHATWG copy
  475. # [16:08] <hsivonen> gotta love the Web: document.write("<noscript>");
  476. # [16:08] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.121.226)
  477. # [16:09] <Philip`> Just make your change proposal say that details should be added back to HTML5
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  484. # [16:18] <zcorpan__> hsivonen: oh yeah 3px double border with border-radius looks pretty ugly in webkit
  485. # [16:18] <zcorpan__> http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/html/video/ now has a double border
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  489. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, it's pretty much the same as document.write('<!--'), I guess?
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  491. # [16:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/issues/detail?id=105
  492. # [16:30] <jgraham> gsnedders: holy crap
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  494. # [16:31] <zcorpan__> what do people think about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8490 ?
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  496. # [16:39] <zcorpan__> same-origin scripts don't need postMessage at all to communicate
  497. # [16:40] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: technically in the same ballpark, but I think writing a <noscript> from a script is conceptually weirder
  498. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> No argument on that.
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  505. # [16:55] <jgraham> Details got removed? Sigh. Do I have to write a change proposal or something to get it back?
  506. # [16:57] <jgraham> Or can we get it back as part of the dd/dt thing without a seperate change proposal
  507. # [16:57] * jgraham is confused
  508. # [16:58] <adactio> I too am confused by the sudden death of details.
  509. # [16:59] <jgraham> Maybe I have to first file a bug to revert the change made by the other bug and then eventually write a change proposal?
  510. # [17:04] <Lachy> jgraham, I think you can object to the resolution of the existing bug first
  511. # [17:04] <Lachy> and then escelate it
  512. # [17:04] <Lachy> *escalate
  513. # [17:04] <jgraham> Lachy: Sounds plausible.
  514. # [17:05] <AryehGregor> Details was cute, but I don't think it was more than marginally useful.
  515. # [17:05] <jgraham> Does anyone have a link to the procedures document offhand?
  516. # [17:05] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html
  517. # [17:05] <Lachy> so I think the first step is to reopen http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8379 and provide rationale
  518. # [17:05] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I find myself wanting it really often and having to go to script just to get a disclosure triangle is overkill
  519. # [17:07] <jgraham> Lachy: as I read that, it is technically only the "commenter" (i.e. the bug filer" who should reopen bugs)
  520. # [17:08] <adactio> Details would have been enormously useful to me. It's a pattern I use all the time with JavaScript.
  521. # [17:08] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Expando sections are a very common idiom on the web, and great for information accessiblity.
  522. # [17:08] <jgraham> Lachy: (that might be a bug in the document though, I will check with othermaciej)
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  524. # [17:21] <hsivonen> adactio: how do you avoid poisoning browser-native <details>?
  525. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: What do you mean?
  526. # [17:24] <adactio> hsivonen: well, I haven't actually used the <details> element itself but I imagine it wouldn't be too tricky to test for native support in JavaScript (in a similar way to checking for native input types).
  527. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> It's not difficult. <details> has an open method you can test for.
  528. # [17:25] <adactio> As I said, it's the *pattern* that I use all the time. It would be nice to see such a common pattern move from a scripted to a declarative solution (much like all those new input types).
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  530. # [17:26] <hsivonen> adactio: ok
  531. # [17:27] * daedb sighs at the removal of <details>
  532. # [17:27] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I mean it's perilous to use JS emulation for an HTML5 feature before there's a native impl so you can test your JS impl gets out of the way cleanly
  533. # [17:28] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Sure, but like I said, there's an easy hook for testing. document.createElement('details').open should return undefined if it's not natively handled.
  534. # [17:28] <hsivonen> maybe Shelley's removal bugs don't represent WG consensus
  535. # [17:28] <Dashiva> daedb: It hasn't been removed, just moved
  536. # [17:28] <TabAtkins> Hopefully a massively incomplete implementation of <details> won't show up in a public build.
  537. # [17:28] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Political bullshit like moving it to another version of the spec is worse than useless.
  538. # [17:29] <TabAtkins> I use <details> right now with the .open testing on a few intranet sites.
  539. # [17:29] <Dashiva> Political bullshit doesn't disappear just because we know it's bullshit
  540. # [17:30] <adactio> Wait. Wait. Wait. Is <details> in HTML5 or not?
  541. # [17:30] <brucel> I added a request to un-kill details Found this the other day by clicking the tabs at the top of labs.opera.com and wondered if you minded if I give it a spring clean to mention HTML5, widgets, mobile best practices etc.
  542. # [17:30] <brucel>
  543. # [17:30] <brucel> I saw " Opera provides experimental support for some types of Compound Documents, leading this work which is still in development at W3C with practical implementations that people can use." and had to look up Compound Documents - is this something still actively used today (and I'm too thick to have heard of it?)
  544. # [17:30] <brucel>
  545. # [17:30] <brucel> Would it be useful to have something on this page that talks about our policy with patents, too? Eg, lift some text from http://www.opera.com/company/vision/
  546. # [17:30] <brucel>
  547. # [17:30] <brucel> We believe in a patent-free Web.
  548. # [17:30] <brucel>
  549. # [17:30] <gsnedders> adactio: not
  550. # [17:30] <brucel> Opera Software does not believe innovation in the software industry is protected or encouraged by software patents. In particular, we believe interoperability on the Internet should be encouraged, and we actively work to ensure that software patents do not stand in the way of interoperability.
  551. # [17:30] <brucel>
  552. # [17:30] <brucel> As a highly innovative company, Opera Software comes up with many ideas and concepts that are patentable. In some situations, we will apply for software patents as a way to protect ourselves from attacks by other aggressive patent holders.
  553. # [17:30] <brucel> I added a comment in the bug tracking thang to undelete <details>. Dunno what the proper process is... the fact that Shelley had filed a bug to kill it had passed me by or I'd;'ve protested before it was drowned in a bucket
  554. # [17:30] <Dashiva> adactio: It is in WHATWG HTML, not HTML5
  555. # [17:30] <brucel>
  556. # [17:30] <brucel>
  557. # [17:30] <brucel>
  558. # [17:30] <brucel> ooops pasted from wrong clipboard
  559. # [17:30] <brucel> sorry
  560. # [17:30] * gsnedders guessed that
  561. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> But it's useless political bullshit. It's not like anyone's going to be appeased by <details> being removed, and somehow drop the other section-removal requests.
  562. # [17:31] <Dashiva> Appeasement is the rule of law, though
  563. # [17:31] <brucel> I added a comment in the bug tracking thang to undelete <details>. Dunno what the proper process is... the fact that Shelley had filed a bug to kill it had passed me by or I'd;'ve protested before it was drowned in a bucket
  564. # [17:31] * Quits: zcorpan__ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  565. # [17:32] <brucel> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8379#c3
  566. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> Argh, I keep deleting my emails because I think they probably won't add anything to the discussion.
  567. # [17:32] <jgraham> TabAtkins: They probably won't
  568. # [17:32] <jgraham> Most of the emails people do send don't
  569. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but it's at least making me happy writing them. It's just frustrating that I keep having to stop myself before I hit "Send" and hit "Discard" instead.
  570. # [17:33] <TabAtkins> I hate not responding to trolls, even if I know that all they want is to be fed. >_< Wrong On The Internet syndrome.
  571. # [17:33] <Philip`> TabAtkins: You should set up an anonymous blog and post them there
  572. # [17:34] <Dashiva> Last week in TabAtkins' outbox
  573. # [17:34] <jgraham> You could post them to wikileaks
  574. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> Hehe.
  575. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> That's a good anonymous blog name, Dashiva.
  576. # [17:34] <Philip`> You could hide them in the middle of Jonas Brothers clips on Youtube
  577. # [17:34] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: Okay, call yourself "Fake TabAtkins" then
  578. # [17:34] <Dashiva> Nobody will suspect a thing
  579. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> Oh man, dynamite plan.
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  584. # [17:46] <adactio> I am utterly confused by the WHATWG site now. This page: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/ links to "HTML5" latest draft, but when I go there I'm told I'm reading "WHATWG HTML (Including HTML5)."
  585. # [17:46] <annevk> utterly confused or you think you discovered a bug? :)
  586. # [17:46] <Dashiva> That page is greatly out of date
  587. # [17:48] <annevk> it should prolly redirect to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F
  588. # [17:48] <annevk> and that entry should be moved out of HTML5
  589. # [17:48] <annevk> I guess the whole FAQ needs an update to take into account new realities
  590. # [17:48] <annevk> oh well, maybe for when I'm back
  591. # [17:49] <AryehGregor> Re <details>: I realize it's very common, but there are zillions of common things people use JS for. Why should we add this one to HTML and not all the others?
  592. # [17:49] * AryehGregor will now be challenged to provide examples, which he'll be forced to come up with off the top of his head, so they'll be easily shot down and everyone else will smugly claim victory.
  593. # [17:51] <adactio> So, just to get this straight in my own head: there is no longer a spec named HTML5 at the WHATWG. There is a spec named HTML5 at the W3C. There is a WHATWG spec named HTML.
  594. # [17:52] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  595. # [17:52] <hsivonen> adactio: at least a while ago, whatwg.org also had a document that corresponded to W3C HTML5
  596. # [17:52] <Dashiva> It still does
  597. # [17:53] <adactio> I'm doing my damndest to evangelise HTML5 to front end developers and designers but you guys don't make it easy.
  598. # [17:53] <Philip`> I think the idea is that HTML is a constantly evolving language
  599. # [17:54] <adactio> Sheesh! And I thought the W3C was bureaucratic and Kafkaesque.
  600. # [17:54] <Philip`> "HTML5" is a snapshot of that language (in terms of features)
  601. # [17:54] <cardona507> adactio - http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/html5/
  602. # [17:54] <Philip`> The W3C process is designed around snapshots, so the HTML WG is trying to develop and publish HTML5
  603. # [17:54] <cardona507> thats the one you want - it is textually identical to the w3c spec
  604. # [17:55] <daedb> I'm just wondering how many more features/sections will be (re)moved before HTML5 is little more than a prettier version of HTML4.
  605. # [17:55] <Philip`> The WHATWG doesn't really have a process, so it's mainly doing HTML (which is the HTML5 snapshot plus extra features)
  606. # [17:55] <hsivonen> adactio: I think Hixie said when W3C HTML5 efforts started that WHATWG HTML would remain a superset of W3C HTML5 if the W3C went into the weeds
  607. # [17:55] <adactio> So there is no multi-page version of HTML5 on the WHATWG site? There is a multipage version of a spec called HTML (which includes HTML5) but only one version of HTML5.
  608. # [17:55] <Philip`> (but there is a WHATWG copy of the HTML5 document, for people who prefer its licensing or colours)
  609. # [17:55] <cardona507> adactio - check http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/html5/
  610. # [17:55] <cardona507> its the one you want
  611. # [17:55] <Philip`> adactio: Yes
  612. # [17:56] <adactio> cardona507: mult-page, please?
  613. # [17:57] <Philip`> The WHATWG doesn't have a multipage version of that, only of the superset language
  614. # [17:57] <gsnedders> Anyone know if Moz intends to implement the RDFa DOM API when that is spec'd?
  615. # [17:57] <Philip`> though it should be easy for someone to run the multipager tool on the HTML5 document if they want
  616. # [17:57] <cardona507> adactio - there isn't a whatwg multipage version - but here is the w3c multipag http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/spec.html
  617. # [17:57] <Philip`> (and publish it somewhere for anyone who wants it)
  618. # [17:58] <cardona507> *multipage
  619. # [17:58] <hsivonen> adactio: apparently, the WG decision to remove Microdata triggered the pre-announced weeds protocol
  620. # [17:59] <adactio> For. Fuck's. Sake. As if this stuff wasn't confusing enough for authors already. Now they have to put up with stupid spec obfuscation for the sake of some minor semantic victory for someone somewhere.
  621. # [17:59] <adactio> Priority of constituencies, my arse.
  622. # [18:00] <adactio> The WHATWG couldn't make the spec more author-unfriendly if they tried.
  623. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> The spec isn't meant to be friendly to typical authors, it's meant to be precise.
  624. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> You can't have an easy-to-use spec that's precise.
  625. # [18:00] <Philip`> Don't blame the WHATWG, blame Hixie :-)
  626. # [18:00] <adactio> Ha! "spec," I said. As if there were just one.
  627. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> They're all subsets of the HTML Complete spec.
  628. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> So you can just use that one if you want.
  629. # [18:01] <hsivonen> adactio: there is just one: Complete
  630. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> Some people complained the spec was too big.
  631. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> And are still complaining the spec is too big.
  632. # [18:01] <cardona507> one spec to rule them all - and one spec to bind them....
  633. # [18:01] <Philip`> Someone should make a Venn diagram of all the spec documents
  634. # [18:01] <adactio> AryehGregor: the design principles would seem to indicate to me that the spec is supposed to be easy to use (as well as precise).
  635. # [18:01] <hsivonen> adactio: looks like Hixie can't do what you like and what Shelley likes at the same time :-(
  636. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> adactio, no, the features it specifies are supposed to be easy to use. It's not meant for ordinary authors to use it to learn HTML, you can't do that and be a good reference at the same time.
  637. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> People will still need separate tutorials to actually learn how to use HTML, unless they're crazy spec-reading people like us.
  638. # [18:02] <adactio> hsivonen: I didn't realise that I was supposed to the bug tracker as my own personal bitching space. There are plenty of things I question in HTML5, but I would never file my personal issues as "bugs": I take them to the list for discussion.
  639. # [18:02] <hsivonen> now HTML5 is something for everyone: a series of small hard-to-track specs or one big cross-referenced thing
  640. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> adactio, Shelley likes to use the bug tracker instead of mailing lists.
  641. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> Also, she likes to raise every quibble she has as a tracker issue.
  642. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> Apparently to ensure that things are properly discussed by the whole bureaucratic W3C procedure.
  643. # [18:03] <Philip`> The bug tracker is the only way to guarantee a response within the HTML WG
  644. # [18:03] <adactio> AryehGregor: Yeah, I've noticed.
  645. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> Rather than, you know, saying it doesn't matter and so who cares, let's just let the editor do what he feels like.
  646. # [18:05] <Dashiva> And the issue tracker is the only way to force a non-technical solution...
  647. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> Or a technical one the editor doesn't agree with.
  648. # [18:06] <Philip`> The issue tracker is the only way to get a solution that differs with the conclusions that Hixie reaches based on the available evidence
  649. # [18:07] <adactio> I understand why all this childish splitting of specs is going on (HTML, HTML5, whatever) but this isn't just about the WHATWG and the W3C. It's harmful to authors trying to understand this stuff. Why bother publicly publishing this stuff at all if it's going to be made as confusing as possible to figure out exactly what is published where.
  650. # [18:07] <Philip`> e.g. for people who have different priorities
  651. # [18:07] <adactio> If one person can use the issue tracker to sabotage a specification, I'd say there's a problem with the process.
  652. # [18:08] <Dashiva> adactio: It's not exactly a secret that there's a problem with w3c process
  653. # [18:08] <hsivonen> adactio: please let the chairs know
  654. # [18:08] <cardona507> its not super confusibg - if u wanna follow HTML5 - go to http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/spec.html
  655. # [18:08] <adactio> hsivonen: I feel that might be somewhat like pissing in the wind.
  656. # [18:08] <cardona507> *confusing
  657. # [18:09] <Dashiva> adactio: In any case, authors will likely agree with one side. Deletionists will use the W3C drafts, Inclusionists will use WHATWG's :)
  658. # [18:09] <AryehGregor> adactio, most people here aren't big fans of the W3C. They're only involved for political reasons: name-brand recognition, patent policies, better chance of MS participation, etc.
  659. # [18:09] <AryehGregor> By all means, complain to the chairs.
  660. # [18:09] <adactio> cardona507: I've been pointing interested people to the nice short URL http://whatwg.org/html5 ...which no longer points to a specification called HTML5. It's fucking Orwellian.
  661. # [18:09] <AryehGregor> And/or the Director.
  662. # [18:10] <Dashiva> adactio: I'm sure the redirect could be updated
  663. # [18:10] <webben> daedb: I don't have a strong opinion about multiple-vs-single specs, but at least "a prettier [better defined] version of HTML4" is still a worthwhile deliverable.
  664. # [18:10] <AryehGregor> adactio, most of us probably agree with you, not much point complaining to us.
  665. # [18:10] <AryehGregor> At least on some aspects.
  666. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> If it were up to the WHATWG, there'd probably be only one spec, called just "HTML", except maybe you could access it split into several pieces if you preferred.
  667. # [18:11] <daedb> webben: Sure, but it's just getting more and more watered-down to the point where it's getting less and less interesting to authors.
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  670. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> Or maybe it would still be called HTML5, just it would evolve over time anyway.
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  672. # [18:11] <Dashiva> That would drive the versioning fans nuts :)
  673. # [18:12] <annevk> it'd prolly be still called web apps 1.0
  674. # [18:12] <Philip`> adactio: Would you prefer to point people at the spec that is stable and feature-frozen at version 5, or the version that is continually evolving with experiental new features?
  675. # [18:12] <AryehGregor> daedb, I don't really agree with that at all. The big stuff is <video>, <audio>, <canvas>, things like that. <details> and kin are sugar at best.
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  678. # [18:12] <Dashiva> <video> isn't an unlikely candidate for removal...
  679. # [18:12] * Philip` isn't sure which authors would want
  680. # [18:12] <webben> daedb: Most of the authorship is not interested in specs anyway. <video> being on MDC or in Mark's Dive Into book, for instance, is more important than which of W3C's/WHATWG's docs it sits in.
  681. # [18:13] <Dashiva> It seems to fail many of the same criteria as microdata did
  682. # [18:13] <webben> (I think)
  683. # [18:13] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, I was going to point that out.
  684. # [18:13] <adactio> I would like to point people at the spec called HTML5. If the WHATWG want to have an ongoing internal masterspec called HTML that's fine, but it shouldn't take precedence over what authors are interested in reading i.e. the current spec.
  685. # [18:13] <AryehGregor> The only thing that differs is it has no competitor.
  686. # [18:14] <webben> adactio: "current" meaning what?
  687. # [18:14] <Dashiva> adactio: That misrepresents authors' real needs
  688. # [18:14] <webben> adactio: isn't "current" the "ongoing" spec?
  689. # [18:14] <AryehGregor> adactio, both specs are current. One matches the current W3C version, the other is more inclusive.
  690. # [18:14] <Dashiva> Authors don't care about what's in spec X or Y, they care about what they can use here and now
  691. # [18:14] <Philip`> AryehGregor: The (non-trivial part of the) canavs element has already been moved into a separate spec, so I guess that's not in HTML5 now either
  692. # [18:14] <AryehGregor> Authors will want the complete HTML spec as soon as there's one feature in it that they can actually use that's not in HTML5.
  693. # [18:14] <AryehGregor> (currently the differences are very minor)
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  695. # [18:15] <Dashiva> Addendum: Not just what they can use, they also want to give input on future features, of course. But future features are future features whether they're in HTML5 or not
  696. # [18:16] * Joins: mwunsch (n=mwunsch@38.105.146.82)
  697. # [18:16] <Philip`> (http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8331)
  698. # [18:16] * AryehGregor wonders if his ISP is blocking outgoing SMTP
  699. # [18:16] <Philip`> (Looks like the microdata rationale is being reused)
  700. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> Heh, maybe Hixie's literally going to split everything that's not widely used and could be used from other specs into a separate spec.
  701. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> That would create quite a lot more specs, but hey, it's what the chairs seem to want.
  702. # [18:18] <itpastorn> In what way has CSS3 been hurt by modularization?
  703. # [18:18] <Dashiva> itpastorn: How many CSS3 modules are CR or PR?
  704. # [18:18] <adactio> I realise that my anger is probably misplaced here. I understand *why* this silly spec-splitting is going on—it's driven by forces outside the WHATWG. But from my perspective, which is primarily as an evangelist, it makes it really bloody hard to explain this mess to my peers.
  705. # [18:18] <daedb> AryehGregor: Sure, but when all the sugar is removed the spec becomes boring for everyone who doesn't publish videos or use canvas.
  706. # [18:19] <adactio> With that, I will leave you in peace.
  707. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> daedb, the goal is to be useful, not exciting.
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  709. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> adactio, just point them all to the complete HTML spec at the WHATWG.
  710. # [18:19] <Dashiva> adactio: In a more constructive effort, were there any other issues than the specs page missing links, and the html5 redirect being wrong?
  711. # [18:19] <daedb> AryehGregor: Sugar is useful.
  712. # [18:20] <Philip`> daedb: It's not useful for people who use canvas either, since the 2D context was removed, so it's boring for even more people
  713. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> daedb, by definition, only marginally.
  714. # [18:20] <adactio> Dashiva: the WHATWG spec page needs a cleanup ...but I believe this a known issue.
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  716. # [18:21] <itpastorn> @dashiva: A few more than if we'd have to wait for the rest! (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work)
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  718. # [18:22] <Dashiva> itpastorn: Marquee and mobile are high profile, how usefulu
  719. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> I wouldn't be surprised if the rationale was to just give people what they're asking for, and letting them choke on it. It's bs, but whatever.
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  721. # [18:24] <itpastorn> Dashiva: And what has that got to do with my argument?
  722. # [18:24] <Dashiva> itpastorn: More politely, modularization makes it much easier to say "You go do your thing while we do our thing"
  723. # [18:24] <Dashiva> So the overall priorities are lost
  724. # [18:25] <CriticalMass> first post - enthusiasm zeroed - and it's the likes of me you're supposed to be talking at
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  726. # [18:26] <Dashiva> (It also means entire modules can go untouched by good spec developers because those are busy with a dozen other modules)
  727. # [18:28] <itpastorn> That would probably happen anyway, even if it was parts of one behemoth CSS 3 super spec - and none of it would have been anything more than a Working Draft. Nothing!
  728. # [18:29] <Dashiva> Except it wouldn't be a behemoth
  729. # [18:29] <daedb> AryehGregor: It's subjective, the sugar is much more useful than the big features like video for some author classes.
  730. # [18:29] <Dashiva> When it's all there in the same place, it's much easier to say "Okay, that's enough, let's make this work first"
  731. # [18:30] <itpastorn> But we will never agree on what's enough.
  732. # [18:31] <Dashiva> A little too much or a little too little works too
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  735. # [18:33] <itpastorn> I think you are missing my point. It is better to move small chunks to a standard that requires implementation.
  736. # [18:33] <itpastorn> What if TCP/IP had been one single spec, including ARP, DHCP, BGP, EIGRP, CIDR, etc?
  737. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> Maybe we could have had less acronyms then…
  738. # [18:35] <itpastorn> That would make my students happy!
  739. # [18:35] <Dashiva> Analogies are like fraternal twins, they aren't really the same at all
  740. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> Well, they're half the same, on average.
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  742. # [18:36] <Philip`> Each web browser is expected to implement all of CSS3, whereas no software is expected to implement all those IP protocols
  743. # [18:37] <itpastorn> You have obviously not heard of an operating system - well perhaps we could say it does not have to implement all routing protocols, but a few hundred others I did not mention instead.
  744. # [18:37] <Philip`> (...as long as you don't consider something like IOS to be a single piece of software)
  745. # [18:38] <itpastorn> Which I did, as well as the *nix's and Windoze and the BSD's, etc.
  746. # [18:39] <Philip`> The modularity of an OS seems completely different to the modularity of a web browser implementation
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  748. # [18:42] <hober> itpastorn: it's at best disingenuous to suggest that people here haven't "heard of an operating system," don't you think?
  749. # [18:43] <itpastorn> So, if everything a browser is expected to implement, why not have image formats, SVG, MathML and HTTP, FTP... in the spec as well
  750. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> Because then no currently-existing browser could handle the entire spec. There are clear technical limitations to how large the spec can be. ^_^
  751. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> s/handle/render/
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  753. # [18:44] <itpastorn> hober: Yes it is. I apologize for those words. They did convey a belittling I am sorry for.
  754. # [18:45] <itpastorn> However, this channel is not exactly known for its politeness...
  755. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> Fuck you, we're extremely polite.
  756. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> ^_^
  757. # [18:46] <Dashiva> itpastorn: It has been suggested more than once, actually
  758. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> Meh, who cares, just write the specs.
  759. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> Format isn't worth arguing over.
  760. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
  761. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> We have one editor who's willing to edit all these specs, and he prefers to edit them as one document, so why not let him?
  762. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> If we need to meet some bureaucratic procedure so we can proceed to Candidate Recommendation or whatever, we can split off features then.
  763. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> Tons of specs do that.
  764. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> In most other cases, you don't have such insanely active editors, so it's easier to have multiple specs.
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  769. # [18:55] <itpastorn> Well, that's the downside of doing spec work outside of closed societies.
  770. # [18:56] <itpastorn> Or the downside of doing sexy stuff. Who'd like to contribute to this: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5719
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  772. # [18:57] <itpastorn> (Yes, I have all IETF rfc's in my RSS-feeds)
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  776. # [19:08] <itpastorn> Friday night s upon us in Europe. Good weekend I wish you all!
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  807. # [21:12] <navap> Is there a difference between the whatwg and w3c specs for html5?
  808. # [21:13] <Hixie> the "whatwg html" spec is a superset of the w3c html5 spec -- it has features that aren't yet in the w3c copy, like <device>, and it puts everything in one document instead of several
  809. # [21:14] <Hixie> (the whatwg currently also has an "html5" spec that's identical to the w3c "core and vocabulary" one, but i think that's just causing confusion so i might just drop it)
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  811. # [21:14] <navap> So which is this one? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  812. # [21:15] <Hixie> that's the "whatwg html" spec, which is the "latest version" of html, with more features than html5.
  813. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> Plural?
  814. # [21:15] <Hixie> <device> and <details>, currently
  815. # [21:18] <navap> Okay so http://whatwg.org/html and http://whatwg.org/html5 both point to the same document which is the HTML+HTML5 spec, and then there is also http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/html5/ which is just the HTML5 spec?
  816. # [21:18] <Hixie> yeah
  817. # [21:18] <Hixie> i think i'll drop the latter one though
  818. # [21:18] <Hixie> as it is just causing confusion
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  824. # [21:31] <navap> Shouldn't the examples given here have their p elements closed at the end of each line? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/commands.html#conversations
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  827. # [21:31] <Hixie> </p> is optional in HTML
  828. # [21:32] <navap> Whereas in XHTML it isn't?
  829. # [21:33] <Philip`> XHTML requires all start and end tags to be explicit
  830. # [21:34] <Philip`> whereas HTML has special cases so some tags can be omitted
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  833. # [21:41] <Hixie> Lachy: i'm not convinced the changes to the FAQ actually made matters better.. in particular, i think the IETF might take offence, for instance, at being described as part of the W3C HTML WG.
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  835. # [21:41] <Hixie> also Web SQL Database isn't deprecated
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  855. # [22:32] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  856. # [22:33] * Quits: |zalan| (n=zalan@catv-89-135-144-122.catv.broadband.hu) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  857. # [22:35] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  858. # [22:36] * Joins: Heimidal (n=heimidal@cpe-76-168-254-92.socal.res.rr.com)
  859. # [22:37] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
  860. # [22:48] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  861. # [22:55] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@162.179.251.212.customer.cdi.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  862. # [23:00] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.19.227)
  863. # [23:01] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.19.227) (Client Quit)
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  869. # [23:09] * Quits: seanoshea_ (n=seanoshe@nat217.eye.fi) (Client Quit)
  870. # [23:12] * Quits: seanoshea (n=seanoshe@nat217.eye.fi) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  871. # [23:17] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote closed the connection)
  872. # [23:18] * Quits: hobertoAtWork4 (n=hobertoa@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com) ("Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de")
  873. # [23:25] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Remote closed the connection)
  874. # [23:28] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  875. # [23:28] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  876. # [23:37] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  877. # [23:46] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  878. # [23:49] * Joins: coreyB (n=corey@adsl-99-92-236-254.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net)
  879. # [23:49] * Parts: coreyB (n=corey@adsl-99-92-236-254.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net) ("Leaving")
  880. # [23:51] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  881. # [23:52] * Joins: boblet (n=boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  882. # [23:53] * Joins: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  883. # [23:54] * Quits: boblet (n=boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  884. # Session Close: Sat Jan 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)