/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-12 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 12 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] * Joins: payman` (n=payman@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net)
4. # [00:00] <Lachy> Hixie, with the 2d context split, it seems this requirement is no longer present in either W3C HTML5 or the 2D context specs: 'This specification only defines one context, with the name "2d". If getContext() is called with that exact string for its contextId argument, then the UA must return a reference to an object implementing CanvasRenderingContext2D.'
5. # [00:01] <Hixie> it's still there, just in different words
6. # [00:01] <Lachy> ok
7. # [00:01] <Lachy> oh, I see. It's repeated here "When the getContext() method of a canvas element is invoked with 2d as the argument, a CanvasRenderingContext2D object is returned."
8. # [00:02] <Lachy> making that first one redundant, since the latter is present in all copies
9. # [00:02] <Lachy> it would be less confusing if the differences between the split specs and the full specs were kept to a minimum
10. # [00:03] <Hixie> the latter isn't a conformance requirement
11. # [00:03] <Hixie> and yes, the changes are kept to a minimum
12. # [00:03] <Lachy> oh, then I can't see where the equivalent conformance requirement is
13. # [00:04] <Lachy> but the latter does come from the Conformance Requirements section
14. # [00:04] <Hixie> paragraphs 2 and 3 of http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext/Overview.html#conformance-requirements
15. # [00:04] <Lachy> that's what I quoted
16. # [00:04] <Hixie> no
17. # [00:04] <Hixie> you quoted the whatwg version
18. # [00:04] <Hixie> which says "is"
19. # [00:04] <Hixie> the w3c version says "must be"
20. # [00:04] <Hixie> like i said, i'm keeping the changes to a minimum :-)
21. # [00:05] <Lachy> ah. I didn't notice the difference in the 2 sentences
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23. # [00:06] <Lachy> then I take that back. Please keep the differences to a maximum to avoid further confusions like that caused by such subtle differences :-)
24. # [00:06] <Hixie> hah
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27. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, your selector would tend to misnest. I don't see any way you could sensibly define things like padding in general if you have <table><th><h1>...</h1>...</table><p>...<h1>...</h1> and you try to wrap everything between the h1's.
28. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Also, foo + * won't work if foo is the last child of its parent.
29. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> I'm confused by your first statement, Aryeh.
30. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> And yes it will - at most, it will wrap to the end of its parent.
31. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait, now I see what you mean.
32. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, take my HTML snippet. What does ::wrap(h1, h1) { padding: 1em } do? What box gets the padding? Your ::wrap includes some children of one block, then a sibling of that block.
33. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Nah, it explicitly doesn't jump between generation boundaries. (I didn't state that before, but it's part of the proposal in my head.)
34. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> So in this case it would do nothing.
35. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Because we have <th><h1>...</h1></th>.
36. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> It would just select the h1.
37. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Yes, it would wrap the <h1> only there.
38. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> And foo + * just won't match anything if foo has no next sibling, as a normal selector.
39. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> I assume ::wrap(squozzle, fooble) wraps nothing if there's no fooble element in the document.
40. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> But if you had <h1>foo</h1><table><th><h1>bar</h1></table><h1>baz</h1>, it would generate two wrapping pseudos at the top level, and one inside the th
41. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> That sounds unexpected.
42. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> The foo+* where foo has no next sibling works as expected - if the second selector is missing or matches nothing, it just wraps to the end of the first selector's parent box.
43. # [00:20] * AryehGregor has thought about this problem a bit for MediaWiki, from the perspective of auto-adding divs around sections, but it's pretty hairy if there's any nesting
44. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see.
45. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> And yes, ::wrap(sqozzle, fooble) wouldn't do anything.
46. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> The first selector has to match something for it to work at all.
47. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> Wait, wouldn't ::wrap(squozzle, fooble) wrap around each squozzle element and all its subsequent siblings, if there's no fooble element?
48. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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50. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> I think I get it now, then.
51. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> kk
52. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> It will break horribly if you have any kind of nesting, but oh well.
53. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> It won't break. It just won't generate pseudos like you expect.
54. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> The main problem is this: <b>foo</b> <i>bar</i> <b>baz</b> <i>qux</i>, ::wrap(b,b) {} ::wrap(i,i) {}
55. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> That'll attempt to create overlapping wrapping pseudos, which is no good.
56. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> That's a much bigger problem, yes.
57. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> But I believe that we can resolve this with whatever we decide is appropriate for the same situation in the ::text() pseudo.
58. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> I got the impression ::text() wasn't going anywhere.
59. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Nah, I'll be revisiting it in a bit. I'm pretty attached to the functionality.
60. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> And the two authors of the group (me and Brad) both feel very strongly about it, so as long as we can get the implementors to grudgingly accept it, we should be golden.
61. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> That just involves resolving all the ambiguities, and ensuring that it's not too expensive to match.
62. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> "just"
63. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> I think the point that it ties together style and content too tightly is pretty compelling.
64. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> I think the argument that simple page transformations are unreasonably useful is pretty compelling. ^_^
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66. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> ::text does indeed tie to content pretty tightly, but the current solution, where you wrap the content in <span>s according to the styling you want, is just as bad, it's just putting the problem in the HTML rather than the CSS.
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68. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> ::wrap wouldn't be as tightly tied, since at least it just selects on the same things as normal CSS.
69. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> The fact is, there simply isn't a generic declarative solution for complex prettifying of arbitrary content short of AI, and I think we're still pretty far from "page-style: make-it-pretty;".
70. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> So style is fated to intertwine with content at least somewhat in some situations, just as behavior twines with content and style in js.
71. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Heh, page-visual-template: url(foo.pdf);
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74. # [00:36] <Lachy> TabAtkins, what's this page-visual-template property?
75. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> A pretend property implemented by AI, which takes a pdf and styles the page accordingly.
76. # [00:36] <Lachy> oh.
77. # [00:37] <cardona507> interesting
78. # [00:37] <Lachy> I think what you're looking for is: html { content: url(design.png); }
79. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Nah, that's clearly not good for user interaction.
80. # [00:39] <Lachy> fine then. binding: url(layout.xbl);
81. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> But then I can't just hand it a file created by Advertising!
82. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Those people definitely won't know how to create xbl.
83. # [00:39] <Lachy> oh, you poor lazy web developer ;-P
84. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Nope, I need an AI which will look at the page, match it with my content, and automagically do everything for me.
85. # [00:40] <cardona507> heh
86. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> But it needs to be a secret so I can still charge for 8 hours of work.
87. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> That's always the tricky part.
88. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, if we have AI like that, maybe we can all retire and have robots do everything for us.
89. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Sounds good to me.
90. # [00:45] * TabAtkins is waiting for scarcity economics to die.
91. # [00:46] <Lachy> TabAtkins, what's scarcity economics?
92. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Economics founded on scarcity. Essentially, nearly all of economics before the digital age.
93. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Anything where there is a limited quantity of product, such that you have to limit it.
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95. # [00:47] <Lachy> scarcity of phyical products is just reality. But, yeah, for digital, I agree, artificial scarcity is harmful
96. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> When you have essentially infinite product (or similarly, when duplicating a product is essentially free), everyone benefits.
97. # [00:47] <cardona507> free - chris anderson
98. # [00:47] <Lachy> huh?
99. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Eh. With matter printers we'd reduce physical scarcity to whatever raw materials the printer needed.
100. # [00:47] <Lachy> who is Chris Anderson?
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102. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> Universal constructors!
103. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> Nanorobots!
104. # [00:48] <Lachy> TabAtkins, you mean the Star Trek Replicators?
105. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Sure, whatever mechanic ended up being used for them.
106. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Lachy: Basically yeah.
107. # [00:48] <cardona507> lachy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPJuoziJaE4
108. # [00:49] <cardona507> lachy - the editor in chief of wired - and the author of "the long tail" & "free"
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110. # [00:52] <Lachy> I hate watching long videos on YouTube. Is that video downloadable from elsewhere?
111. # [00:52] <Lachy> actually, I'll use miro to get it from YT
112. # [00:53] <othermaciej> I finished fleshing out proposal 3
113. # [00:54] <othermaciej> if anyone would like to review, comments would be appreciated
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115. # [00:54] <othermaciej> I guess everything I wrote about equally applies to 3b
116. # [00:54] <othermaciej> and almost all of it applies to 7
117. # [00:55] <othermaciej> though you would have to strike "Does Not Introduce Redundant Elements for the Content" and justify "Adds Helpful Optional Elements for the Content"
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119. # [00:58] <Lachy> othermaciej, should the content model of details say "preceded or followed by a dlabel element?" Shouldn't it be preceded only?
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121. # [00:59] <othermaciej> Lachy: let me check what the spec says now
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123. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: You have to escape all your html - there's one spot where a tag is clearly missing.
124. # [00:59] <Lachy> it says one dt followed by dd
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126. # [00:59] <Lachy> so the label must come first
127. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> second paragraph of Impact.
128. # [00:59] <othermaciej> Lachy: and it requires both?
129. # [00:59] <othermaciej> Lachy: I will fix to match
130. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> nm, I just fixed it.
131. # [01:00] <Lachy> yes, both are required
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134. # [01:00] <Lachy> it wouldn't make sense to have a details without a label
135. # [01:00] <Lachy> and even less sense to have no content
136. # [01:01] <Lachy> hmm, unless it were just used as a placeholder in the page
137. # [01:01] <othermaciej> fixed
138. # [01:02] <Lachy> oh, sorry. the current spec does make dt optional
139. # [01:02] <othermaciej> optional but has to be first?
140. # [01:02] <othermaciej> I guess I should look myself
141. # [01:02] <Lachy> yes
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143. # [01:04] <othermaciej> ok really fixed
144. # [01:04] <othermaciej> does folks like the suggested names in 3b better? (figcaption and dsummary instead of fcaption and dlabel)
145. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Hmm, dsummary. Yeah, I like it.
146. # [01:05] <Lachy> I keep mistyping dlabel as dlable today.
147. # [01:05] <othermaciej> The <details> spec text does call the caption-like thing "the summary"
148. # [01:05] <AryehGregor> "label" makes more to sense to me, offhand.
149. # [01:05] <othermaciej> heck, it could just be <summary> since that is presently unused
150. # [01:05] <AryehGregor> Oh, that would be a slam dunk IMO.
151. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Sounds even better.
152. # [01:05] <Lachy> though, I have been mistyping a lot today. Don't know why. maybe I'm just tired.
153. # [01:06] <hober> But then you start to see <article><summary>...
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156. # [01:06] <Lachy> I once suggested using <summary>, but I can't remember what the objections were at the time
157. # [01:06] <hober> <article><dsummary> is much more obviously wrong, in the same way as <html><tbody>
158. # [01:07] <Lachy> but I do think label is more appropriate here, given its effectively a control label
159. # [01:08] <Lachy> and figcaption is better than fcaption
160. # [01:08] <othermaciej> I can see an argument for both "label" and "summary"
161. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> I like the way <summary> quite directly suggests what it should be, for maximum accessibility.
162. # [01:09] <Dashiva> But it's not necessarily a summary, is it?
163. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> Though it is clickable like a <label>, <summary> just matches better in my head.
164. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> It's pretty close.
165. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Or rather, *should* be pretty close if <details> is used correctly.
166. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Note: I consider heading-like content to be close to a summary.
167. # [01:10] <Lachy> I think summary sort of works as an alternative to figcaption, though its name would clash semantically with the table summary attribute, which is certainly not a caption
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169. # [01:11] <Lachy> but I don't see how summary works for details
170. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> Lachy: Check http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html#the-details-element
171. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Note how the prose uses the term "summary" to describe the toggler bit.
172. # [01:12] <Lachy> yeah, I saw that. I'm not sure that's a good description for it
173. # [01:13] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/1263225612.26294.2.camel@chacal is interesting
174. # [01:13] <othermaciej> in the spec example pictures (from the Mac OS X Finder), it's probably more accurate to call the short bits a "label" rather than a "summary"
175. # [01:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: what is interesting about it?
176. # [01:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think what Philippe is saying is:
177. # [01:14] <Hixie> that the new rdfa group _doesn't_ include the text/html rdfa stuff
178. # [01:14] <othermaciej> ah
179. # [01:14] <Lachy> othermaciej, what are those controls called in OS X?
180. # [01:14] <othermaciej> I was expecting that "RDFa in HTML" would stay an HTML WG deliverable
181. # [01:14] <Hixie> Lachy: disclosure widgets is what i've heard them called
182. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Interesting, doesn't that make some of the statements about the pointed-out lacks in RDFa being addressed in 1.1 moot?
183. # [01:15] <othermaciej> the term for the triangle part is "disclosure triangle"
184. # [01:15] <Lachy> oh, yeah, I remember reading "disclosure triangles" in the Apple HIG
185. # [01:15] <othermaciej> looking up what the control itself is called officially
186. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Or does it just mean the group responsible for it is different, but they'll still describe integration with HTML as well as XML?
187. # [01:16] <Lachy> Hixie, did you make those Pillar magazine graphics?
188. # [01:16] <Hixie> yes
189. # [01:16] <Hixie> that's my cat
190. # [01:17] <Lachy> yeah, I know
191. # [01:17] <Lachy> I recognised it
192. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, RDFa in HTML never did anything but said how to integrate it, right? I assume it will just say how to integrate 1.1 just as much.
193. # [01:17] <othermaciej> Lachy: "disclosure triangle" is the only term, the control is provided as just the spinny triangle, and not as the whole integrated thing that incorporates the contents
194. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Well, at the very least it'll have to be updated for the various incompatible changes that 1.1 is making.
195. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> I don't see how that's relevant to the statements you referred to, though.
196. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> It is probably me just misreading the statement, so don't worry about it.
197. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Oh man, I've been off work for 15 minutes! Woo!
198. # [01:22] * TabAtkins goes to play more Saints Row.
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220. # [02:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: I keep accidentally opening http://damowmow.com/playground/htmlwg/chart.html in released Safari instead of trunk
221. # [02:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: I gotta get that bug into a software update for my own sanity
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223. # [02:51] <Hixie> hah
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232. # [03:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: is it useful to have separate "HTML5 spec bugs" and "HTML5 spec proposals" components in w3c bugzilla?
233. # [03:13] <othermaciej> I'm thinking of suggesting they be folded into one
234. # [03:14] <Hixie> no, but please don't change that because that would break all my queries
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237. # [03:14] <Hixie> all my queries, bookmarks, scripts, etc, use those two components
238. # [03:14] <othermaciej> I see
239. # [03:14] <Hixie> (similarly, please don't add new components)
240. # [03:14] <othermaciej> is it possible to make, say, the "proposals" one closed to new bugs without removing it fully?
241. # [03:14] <Hixie> dunno
242. # [03:14] <Hixie> is it causing a problem?
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244. # [03:15] <othermaciej> not really, just minor annoyance when forming a query by hand
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246. # [03:15] <Hixie> ah
247. # [03:15] <othermaciej> I do think separate drafts should have separate components, cause otherwise it's pretty hard to separately track when each gets to 0 bugs in a non-terminal state
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249. # [03:16] <Hixie> well if there are other editors, they should get components, sure, but for drafts i edit i treat them all as one draft anyway
250. # [03:16] <Hixie> so it's moot
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252. # [03:17] <othermaciej> so I'm seeing 231 bugs resolved since the start of the month
253. # [03:17] <othermaciej> 67 still open
254. # [03:17] <othermaciej> incoming rate must be out of control
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256. # [03:17] <othermaciej> since there were fewer than 200 open on the 1st
257. # [03:17] <Hixie> incoming rate grew significantly higher than i expected, yes
258. # [03:17] <Hixie> though i don't track that
259. # [03:18] <Hixie> so i don't have numbers
260. # [03:19] <othermaciej> 115 created since the start of the month
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262. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> Jeez, that's 10 a day.
263. # [03:21] <othermaciej> FWIW Hixie's accept/reject rate is still around 50% of the non-garbage bugs
264. # [03:22] <othermaciej> (where by "garbage" I mean duplicate or invalid)
265. # [03:22] <othermaciej> I looked at some past months and the rate seems to be slowly going down over time
266. # [03:22] <othermaciej> the highest I found was 70%
267. # [03:22] <Hixie> as in i'm rejecting more?
268. # [03:22] <othermaciej> that seems like pretty much whatI would expect for a maturing spec
269. # [03:22] <othermaciej> yes, you seem to be rejecting more percentage-wise than in, say, July
270. # [03:23] <Hixie> i'd expect the rate to go the other way, actually, because the problems should be getting more trivial (e.g. reviewers should be moving from "this doesn't work" to "this is misspelt")
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272. # [03:24] <othermaciej> well some reviewers are still submitting requests for new features
273. # [03:24] <Hixie> there might be a better correlation of rate vs reporter than rate vs time
274. # [03:24] <othermaciej> but you're right, I could imagine it going the other way if the proportion of editorial issues was increasing as one might expect
275. # [03:24] <othermaciej> possible - I did not try to measure that cause it would be too much work :-)
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283. # [04:19] <cardona507> since we are moving into a fluid versionless HTML - will we also move into a versionless web applications?
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330. # [08:33] <hsivonen> Is the Director going to appoint three so far unannounced individuals to the TAG in addition to the re-elected and the continuing participants
331. # [08:33] * hsivonen tries to understand http://www.w3.org/News/2010#entry-8694
332. # [08:37] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that's what it sounds like
333. # [08:38] <othermaciej> hsivonen: you should run for TAG next time
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335. # [08:38] <othermaciej> I'd tell my AC rep to vote for you :-)
336. # [08:38] <othermaciej> and it would make their minutes fun to read I bet
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484. # [09:35] <zcorpan__> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/html5/ gives me 500
485. # [09:36] <Hixie> try now
486. # [09:37] * hsivonen never remembers how Windows "NT" version numbers map to branding names
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488. # [09:39] <zcorpan__> Hixie: oh, it's removed?
489. # [09:39] <Hixie> read your whatwg mail :-)
490. # [09:40] <zcorpan__> not today
491. # [09:41] <Hixie> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-January/024708.html
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493. # [09:43] <hsivonen> hmm. still 3 columns at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F
494. # [09:43] <hsivonen> If this trend continues, I guess I'll have to migrate html5.validator.nu to validator.nu and migrate validator.nu to custom.validator.nu
495. # [09:43] <hsivonen> or something
496. # [09:44] <hsivonen> calling the primary UI "html5" was probably a bad idea in the first place
497. # [09:44] <Hixie> heh
498. # [09:44] <hsivonen> of course, "html5" wasn't the primary UI when the "html5" UI was minted
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500. # [09:45] <hsivonen> changing the meaning of the validator.nu UI sucks for the APIs and for bookmarks...
501. # [09:45] <hsivonen> and decoupling the API endpoints from the UI URLs would suck, too
502. # [09:45] <hsivonen> well, I think I'm going to wait and see how things develop
503. # [09:46] <hsivonen> although by HTML6, I need to rearrange the UI anyway
504. # [09:47] <Hixie> what is this "html6" you speak of? :-P
505. # [09:48] <hsivonen> well, HTML5.next
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507. # [09:49] <zcorpan__> HTML5 is HTML5.next
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512. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> Hixie: have you run into cvs locking problem with the last few checkins?
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514. # [10:14] <Hixie> no
515. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> ok
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517. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> Hixie: revision number no longer shows up correctly in the line above the copyright
518. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> I think because you have to change it to $Revision: $
519. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> with a colon
520. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> maybe
521. # [10:24] <Hixie> oops
522. # [10:24] <Hixie> will fix
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531. # [10:56] <roc> is it true that the lists.w3.org archives aren't indexed by Google?
532. # [10:57] <Hixie> http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=site:lists.w3.org
533. # [10:57] <Hixie> Results 1 - 10 of about 1,080,000 from lists.w3.org
534. # [10:58] <zcorpan__> how come i have about 1,520,000
535. # [10:59] <Hixie> it's an approximation
536. # [10:59] <Hixie> probably based on how many servers responded, and you probably hit a different data center than i do
537. # [10:59] <jgraham> Quite a bad one it seems :)
538. # [10:59] <roc> hmm
539. # [10:59] <roc> how come my searches never find anything
540. # [11:00] <Hixie> (i actually have no idea what it's based on)
541. # [11:00] <Lachy> I get 1,090,000.
542. # [11:00] <Hixie> roc: what are you looking or?
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544. # [11:00] <jgraham> It should just say results 1-10 of about 1E6
545. # [11:00] <roc> e.g.
546. # [11:00] <roc> www-style making pt a physical unit
547. # [11:00] <Lachy> zcorpan__, also, google.se returns different resutls from google.com
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549. # [11:00] <roc> that query doesn't even bring up lists.w3.org in the top-10
550. # [11:00] <Hixie> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=site:lists.w3.org+www-style+making+pt+a+physical+unit&aq=f&oq=&;aqi=
551. # [11:01] <Hixie> i guess lists.w3.org just doesn't seem very useful to google's algorithms
552. # [11:01] <Hixie> hard to argue with that position :-P
553. # [11:01] <roc> also
554. # [11:01] <roc> "www-style archive" brings up lists.w3.org as the top hit
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556. # [11:02] <roc> but just http://lists.w3.org, not, say, "www-style@w3.org Mail Archives" (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/)
557. # [11:02] <Hixie> weird
558. # [11:03] <Hixie> you can if you search for that a lot, click "add a result" at the bottom, and enter that URL for that query
559. # [11:03] <zcorpan__> http://www.bing.com/search?q=www-style+making+pt+a+physical+unit&go=&form=QBLH&filt=all
560. # [11:04] <doublec> search for 'w3c dysfunctional'
561. # [11:04] <doublec> that brings up lists.w3c.org right away
562. # [11:04] <zcorpan__> clearly bing is better than google
563. # [11:04] <doublec> lists.w3.org that is - public-html
564. # [11:04] <hsivonen> I tried to use Bing as my default engine for a couple of hours and then went back to Google due to search quality issues
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566. # [11:05] <hsivonen> though it could be that only Bing's Finland region sucks
567. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Bing seems to insist on making the search results locale-sensitive--badly
568. # [11:06] <zcorpan__> there should be an <input type=range> for locale-senitiveness
569. # [11:07] <zcorpan__> when i search for an article about some topic, i don't care about locale at all
570. # [11:07] <zcorpan__> but when i search for a restaurant, i do
571. # [11:08] <hsivonen> GPS-assisted restaurant search on Google Maps Mobile is awesome
572. # [11:08] <hsivonen> (when outside Helsinki, that is. for Helsinki, there's a specialized service that beats Google on restaurants)
573. # [11:08] <zcorpan__> maybe search engines could figure out from the query whether to be locale-sensitive or not
574. # [11:14] <hsivonen> I believe they try with varying levels of success
575. # [11:15] <roc> hmm
576. # [11:15] <roc> Bing IS better than Google
577. # [11:15] <roc> I should pay more attention to Asa
578. # [11:16] <roc> I think Google tries to be locale-sensitive with great success
579. # [11:17] <roc> my search for "empress garden" returns the correct Auckland restaurant as the top hit (actually the top several hits) ... I haven't searched for it before
580. # [11:18] <hsivonen> roc: I tried to pay attention to Asa's recommendation, but the results were bad for me.
581. # [11:18] <roc> I was being sarcastic
582. # [11:19] <roc> I don't have an "add a result" option on Google
583. # [11:20] * roc sends feedback
584. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Y! outsourcing their search to Bing doesn't improve the state of competition :-(
585. # [11:27] <zcorpan__> what's Asa?
586. # [11:28] <hsivonen> s/what/who/
587. # [11:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan__: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2009/12/if_you_have_nothing.html
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589. # [11:29] <hsivonen> aargh. are data: URLs that don't have <script> elements synchronously navigated to in WebKit?
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591. # [11:36] <Hixie> roc: are you logged into google?
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593. # [11:36] <Hixie> roc: if you're logged in, it should be the first link on the left under the Goooooooogle paginator
594. # [11:37] <roc> ahah
595. # [11:37] <roc> thanks
596. # [11:37] <zcorpan__> hmm, seems MessageChannel is supported in webkit but not in firefox
597. # [11:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you actively following the about:blank discussion in dev.platform?
598. # [11:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: not actively
599. # [11:38] <hsivonen> so far it seems that about:blank navigation isn't fully synchronous in Gecko and WebKit
600. # [11:39] <hsivonen> but might be in Opera and IE8
601. # [11:39] <Hixie> when is it not?
602. # [11:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/bz-about-blank.html
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604. # [11:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: if the http URL is changed to a data URL, then WebKit acts like Opera
605. # [11:43] <Hixie> bring it up in #webkit
606. # [11:43] <Hixie> or on the whatwg list
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628. # [12:49] <Hixie> nn
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634. # [12:58] <zcorpan__> text/sandboxed-html doesn't have the same backcompat as <iframe sandbox>
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636. # [12:59] <zcorpan__> it should be a parameter for text/html instead
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638. # [13:03] <Philip`> zcorpan__: Wouldn't that defeat the point?
639. # [13:04] <Philip`> If a user could visit the supposedly-sandboxed content by a direct URL, rather than via the iframe, and their (legacy) browser rendered the page, the user would be vulnerable to malicious content
640. # [13:05] <Philip`> Oh, but I suppose legacy browsers will ignore the sandbox attribute on iframe anyway, so maybe we don't care about them
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642. # [13:05] <zcorpan__> or we should have <sandboxediframe>
643. # [13:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: did you have a page with links to Web content that doesn't declare the charset in any way?
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646. # [13:13] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hmm, I can't find any like that
647. # [13:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
648. # [13:13] <Philip`> There's http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html#sniffed-not-meta but it sounds like that wasn't looking at HTTP content-type
649. # [13:15] <Philip`> hsivonen: Oh, there's http://philip.html5.org/data/pages-with-no-explicit-charset-in-tlds-with-funny-alphabets.txt
650. # [13:15] <Philip`> which might be relevant
651. # [13:15] <hsivonen> excellent. thanks
652. # [13:17] <gsnedders> http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/issues/detail?id=105
653. # [13:17] * gsnedders is seriously impressed
654. # [13:18] * Joins: Utkarsh (n=admin@117.201.82.135)
655. # [13:18] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should wait until it's within an order of magnitude of Java before being that impressed :-p
656. # [13:19] <gsnedders> The amount of activity is impressive though :)
657. # [13:21] * jgraham prefers to be irreverently impressed
658. # [13:23] <zcorpan__> /me just learned a new word
659. # [13:23] <zcorpan__> so will html5lib be on par with lxml?
660. # [13:26] * gsnedders thought he was the irreverent one
661. # [13:26] <gsnedders> zcorpan__: No
662. # [13:28] <zcorpan__> gsnedders: then i'm not impressed :P
663. # [13:28] <hsivonen> does the whatwg wiki require keys?
664. # [13:28] <hsivonen> or has brucel just not created an account?
665. # [13:29] <Dashiva> Anyone can register
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667. # [13:31] <Lachy> I don't think he realised it was the whatwg wiki, as opposed to the W3C wiki, which does have restrictions on who can edit it
668. # [13:32] <Lachy> anyway, I already told him he can edit it
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679. # [14:01] <zcorpan__> Hixie: the web workers spec says "Draft Recommendation" while html5 says "Draft Standard"
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687. # [14:36] <Huvet> oh, nice... isn't this a nice sight? <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//SoftQuad//DTD HoTMetaL PRO 4.0::19970714::extensions to HTML 4.0//EN" "hmpro4.dtd">
688. # [14:36] <Huvet> http://nyhetsbrev.nu
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690. # [14:36] <Huvet> horrible!
691. # [14:37] <Huvet> passes all your code just fine :)
692. # [14:37] * Huvet applauds
693. # [14:38] <Lachy> Huvet, that's one of the many doctypes that triggers quirks mode.
694. # [14:38] <Huvet> yep, I'd just never seen one that was that bad :)
695. # [14:39] <Lachy> do you mean the doctype, or the whole page?
696. # [14:39] <Huvet> the doctype
697. # [14:39] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#quirks-mode-doctypes
698. # [14:40] <Huvet> I'm parsing swedish newspapers, and have crashed html5lib five times (four of them fixed)
699. # [14:40] <Huvet> so I have seen horrible stuff :)
700. # [14:40] <Philip`> These HTML editors are immortalied forever
701. # [14:40] <Philip`> s//s/
702. # [14:40] <Huvet> yeah, the authors will have accomplished something in life
703. # [14:41] <Huvet> John "HoTMetaL Pro 2.0" Doe
704. # [14:42] <hsivonen> does Flash have native support for showing spherical images?
705. # [14:42] <hsivonen> like street view and stuff
706. # [14:43] <hsivonen> or is it put together from lower level pieces on ActionScript?
707. # [14:43] <zcorpan__> Huvet: it's worse when people change various parts of the doctype, like <!DOCTYPE php PUBLIC "-//W3C/DTD HTML 4.01//NL" />
708. # [14:43] * hsivonen wonders if painting <video> frames with WebGL can replicate the demo at http://demos.immersivemedia.com/
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710. # [14:44] <Huvet> zcorpan__: that's worse, yes :(
711. # [14:44] <Huvet> I wouldn't be surprised if someone used backslashes in the doctype, cause "they are on windows"
712. # [14:45] <hsivonen> whoa. I've never seen !DOCTYPE php
713. # [14:46] <Dashiva> That's a cool effect, hsivonen
714. # [14:46] <zcorpan__> can't that be done with 2d canvas?
715. # [14:47] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/doctypes.html#%3c%21doctype_php_public_%22-%2f%2fw3c%2f%2fdtd_xphp_1.0_transitional%2f%2fen%22_%22http%3a%2f%2fwww.w3.org%2ftr%2fxphp1%2fdtd%2fxphp1-transitional.dtd%22%3e
716. # [14:47] <Dashiva> What is the source material like?
717. # [14:47] <Philip`> (<!doctype php public "-//w3c//dtd xphp 1.0 transitional//en" "http://www.w3.org/tr/xphp1/dtd/xphp1-transitional.dtd">)
718. # [14:47] <zcorpan__> hsivonen: probably global s/html/php/ when switching file extensions...
719. # [14:47] <Dashiva> The sphere mapped to a rectangle?
720. # [14:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan__: in theory, yes, but is the perf sufficient?
721. # [14:48] <Philip`> There's a lot of http://philip.html5.org/data/doctypes.html#%3c%21doctype_doctype_public_%22-%2f%2fw3c%2f%2fdtd_html_4.0_transitional%2f%2fen%22%3e
722. # [14:49] <Dashiva> How would you do a sphere -> rect (or opposite) mapping in 2D canvas?
723. # [14:49] <zcorpan__> hsivonen: no idea
724. # [14:50] <hsivonen> Dashiva: by pixel, I guess
725. # [14:50] <hsivonen> Dashiva: or by slicing the image and drawing approximation with a 2D matrix
726. # [14:50] <Philip`> I expect it'd be really hard to make it look good in 2D canvas, because you can only do affine transforms, so you can't even do a decent textured polygon mesh
727. # [14:51] <hsivonen> the above Flash thingy doesn't look so great when there are straight lines in the view
728. # [14:51] <hsivonen> like the railing of the bridge
729. # [14:51] <Philip`> That demo already seems to have really dodgy perspective
730. # [14:52] <Philip`> since the image seems to stretch when it's near the edges
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732. # [14:55] <zcorpan__> 3d effects don't have to be perfect
733. # [14:58] <Philip`> I think you can draw an arbitrary texture triangle onto an arbitrary screen triangle (by computing an appropriate transform matrix), so I suppose you could pre-compute a spherical triangle mesh that covers the screen, and map each triangle onto texture coordinates depending on view angle, so maybe it wouldn't be too bad
734. # [14:58] <Philip`> but you'd have to use lots of triangles
735. # [14:59] <zcorpan__> will <video controls> in firefox gain a full-screen button?
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740. # [15:17] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish_
741. # [15:19] * hsivonen wonders when Xiph is going to release XiphQT with Thusnelda
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745. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> zcorpan__, I don't see one in mozilla-central.
746. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> Just in the context menu.
747. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> I don't know why not, I imagine people would expect it from YouTube (I would).
748. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> (except that I specifically know the feature exists so am willing to explore and do things like right-click)
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752. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: does the MediaWiki API provide any way to extract sections from a page?
753. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, um, let me see.
754. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> OK, to be clear, what I mean is, if I give it a section title, can I get the contents of that section back
755. # [16:17] <AryehGregor> I'd imagine you could do it by section number. Section title is probably less reliable, those aren't guaranteed to be unique and section 0 has no title.
756. # [16:17] * AryehGregor doesn't usually use the API, so is looking at the docs
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758. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> Hmm. The closest I see is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=parse&page=HTML5&prop=sections
759. # [16:21] <Lachy> text/sandboxed-html doesn't seem to have very nice graceful degradation.
760. # [16:21] <AryehGregor> I guess you could retrieve that, retrieve the wikitext, and slice out the bytes given. If you want it to be HTML, you can then feed that back to the parser. Of course, that will give weird results if any tags straddle sections.
761. # [16:22] <AryehGregor> The person to ask in RoanKattouw, he's the API guy, but he seems not to be on IRC right now.
762. # [16:23] <Lachy> I assume that's probably considered a feature that current UAs won't accidentally interpret the HTML, but Firefox popping up a save dialog to users isn't very nice.
763. # [16:23] <Lachy> Safari seems to have the best fallback, which is to treat it as text/plain
764. # [16:23] * Quits: zcorpan__ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
765. # [16:24] <Philip`> If your site wants to work in legacy browsers without exposing those users to XSS attacks, the site will have to sanitise the HTML anyway before it can be used in <iframe sandbox>
766. # [16:25] <Philip`> in which case serving the same content as standalone text/html to legacy browsers wouldn't introduce any new dangers
767. # [16:25] <Philip`> It only makes a difference for sandbox-supporting browsers, where the sandbox layer of defence would be lost if the content was accessed outside of its iframe
768. # [16:25] <Lachy> yeah, I realise that. I'm just concerned that this will limit adoption among sites, since they usually need to maintain compat with older browsers for a few years after they've been made obsolete
769. # [16:26] <Philip`> So I guess something like text/html;sandbox=1 would be better because it will work in legacy browsers without introducing new vulnerabilities, and will allow sandbox-supporting browsers to apply extra defences to it
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771. # [16:26] <Lachy> and I don't know any site that would want users to inadvertently save the file and then possibly open it wondering what it is
772. # [16:26] * Hish__ is now known as Hish
773. # [16:27] <Philip`> (But, on the other hand, people will add ;sandbox=1 to all their pages before anyone's released a sandbox-supporting browser, and therefore prevent it ever being supported)
774. # [16:28] <Lachy> Perhaps sites will resort to some sort of browser sniffing to determine whether or not text/sandboxed-html is supported
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776. # [16:36] <AryehGregor> Lachy, does nine count as "a few"?
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779. # [16:42] <Lachy> AryehGregor, in the case of IE6, yes, but luckily, upgrade rates do seem to getting better than that these days
780. # [16:43] <AryehGregor> Thankfully.
781. # [16:43] * AryehGregor is hoping enterprises will switch to Win7 with IE6-in-VM for their intranets
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783. # [16:43] <Lachy> anyone know what the usage of Firefox 2 is like these days, now that it's had 3.0 and 3.5 after it?
784. # [16:44] * Lachy looks it up...
785. # [16:44] <gsnedders> Lachy: http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm
786. # [16:44] <Philip`> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2 says 0.9%
787. # [16:46] <AryehGregor> So Firefox 2.0 is still 5% or so of Firefox market share, while IE6 is still 20% or so of IE market share.
788. # [16:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: Looks like it got confused by Opera 10's UA string
789. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> Well, it's a confusing UA string, isn't it.
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791. # [16:49] <Philip`> All UA strings are confusing
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793. # [16:50] <Lachy> that's not too bad. It's only been ~1.5 years since Firefox 3.0 succeeded it, and it's already at fairly ignorable levels
794. # [16:50] <TabAtkins> I've been ignoring it for a long time.
795. # [16:50] <TabAtkins> Though I've also been ignoring IE6 as much as possible for at least 6 months.
796. # [16:51] <Lachy> yeah, me too. When I was doing web development, I started ignoring older firefox releases fairly soon after the new one was released.
797. # [16:51] <TabAtkins> I have the benefit of our tech support pushing people onto IE7 and now IE8. We don't get very many IE6 hits now.
798. # [16:52] <Lachy> which site is that for?
799. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> igofigure.com
800. # [16:53] <Lachy> why isn't your tech support pushing people onto Firefox, Opera or Safari?
801. # [16:53] <Lachy> or Chrome?
802. # [16:53] <TabAtkins> Because it's much easier to say "Do Windows Update, our software requires it".
803. # [16:53] * Philip` wonders how long it takes for an obsolete Firefox release to fall below the combined market share of all versions of Opera
804. # [16:54] <TabAtkins> And updated IE is a Windows Update.
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815. # [17:13] <AryehGregor> foolip, so Opera is going to support H.264 if the codec is installed on the system?
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827. # [17:31] <foolip> AryehGregor: unless we take steps to prevent it, it will happen to work on Unix, but no other platforms
828. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> foolip, Unix including OS X or not?
829. # [17:32] <foolip> no, not Mac
830. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
831. # [17:32] <foolip> just platforms where we can use the native GStreamer, which is, basically, Linux and FreeBSD
832. # [17:32] * AryehGregor wishes Apple would end the discussion by supporting Theora already. :(
833. # [17:33] * foolip too
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836. # [17:33] * bzed_ is now known as bzed
837. # [17:33] * foolip also hope noone goes off claiming that "Opera supports H.264" because GStreamer may happen to
838. # [17:34] * Philip` wonders how many Linuxes include H.264 support
839. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> Philip`, probably all of them if you click through a "don't click this if you live in the US" button.
840. # [17:35] <foolip> Philip`: none do by default
841. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> Well, I can't say "all of them".
842. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> But I'm pretty sure the major ones have it somewhere in the repos.
843. # [17:35] <Philip`> I'd assume it's just the ones that are willing to pay licensing fees and the ones that don't care about patent infringement, but I don't know if there's any that aren't either of those categories
844. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> *Is* it patent infringement in Europe?
845. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> Or just the US?
846. # [17:35] <foolip> well, Ubuntu will happily install lots of stuff if you play something in totem
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849. # [17:43] <Philip`> Hmm, it looks like I do have GStreamer installed
850. # [17:43] <Philip`> but I don't think I ever use anything that uses it
851. # [17:43] <Philip`> (since I just use mplayer and vlc)
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857. # [17:57] <foolip> ubuntu has it per default anyway
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861. # [18:05] <Philip`> Hooray for Mercurial
862. # [18:05] <Philip`> (in the W3C)
863. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> Why not git?
864. # [18:06] <jcranmer> ?
865. # [18:06] <gsnedders> Because git is evil.
866. # [18:06] * gsnedders hides
867. # [18:07] <Dashiva> You git
868. # [18:09] <Philip`> You mercurial fellow
869. # [18:09] <Philip`> Hmm, that's not as good an insult
870. # [18:10] <AryehGregor> Philip`, you're a subversive, mercurial git who . . . hangs out in bazaars.
871. # [18:10] <AryehGregor> Could use work.
872. # [18:10] * Quits: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-220-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
873. # [18:12] <Philip`> You're such a CVS
874. # [18:13] <Dashiva> What a load of VCS
875. # [18:15] <AryehGregor> I know. You're a subversive, mercurial git whose version-control preferences are simply bazaar.
876. # [18:15] <AryehGregor> (could still use work, but getting there)
877. # [18:17] <Dashiva> git who VC(t)S bazaars
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879. # [18:19] <gsnedders> What a bazaar conversation.
880. # [18:20] <Philip`> We should all be committed
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907. # [19:38] * gsnedders is hearing rumours about an iniment html5lib release
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925. # [20:31] <Huvet> hi everyone! I was wondering if someone has a couple of minutes to look at a NoReverseMatch error. I've tried to fix this for at least an hour now, trying every combination I can: http://dpaste.com/144265/
926. # [20:31] <Huvet> basically, I have a url.py, that includes another url.py, in which I have a name I want to reverse
927. # [20:31] <Huvet> I can't
928. # [20:32] <Huvet> it's probably something stupid :(
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930. # [20:36] <Huvet> GAH, I found it
931. # [20:37] <Huvet> urls.py, I have a $ at the end of the first regexp :/
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951. # [21:57] <crash\> is it everywhere mentioned how browser must act after removing the selected element? I mean change HTMLSelectElement.value and .selectedIndex?
952. # [21:59] <crash\> Opera doesn't changes those values after removing the selected option
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The end :)