/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-20 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 20 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:03] * Joins: aho (n=nya@e183151053.adsl.alicedsl.de)
4. # [00:04] <aho> localStorage, what's the limit there? 3mb?
5. # [00:05] <virtuelv> I don't think the spec mandates a limit
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7. # [00:05] <aho> hmhm
8. # [00:05] <aho> found this: "The current default on iPhone is 5.0 MB. If your database grows beyond this limit, the user will automatically be asked to allow or deny the size increase. If he allows the increase, the database size limit will be upped to 10.MB"
9. # [00:05] <aho> if it's like this everywhere it would be pretty nice indeed
10. # [00:06] <aho> "User agents may prompt the user when quotas are reached," <- awww... spec says "may" :/
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12. # [00:06] <aho> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-webstorage-20091029/#disk-space
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14. # [00:08] <virtuelv> aho: my point is that you can't really rely on being able to store what you want to store
15. # [00:08] <aho> of course
16. # [00:08] <aho> but there should be an option to store more than 3 or 5mb if necessary
17. # [00:09] <virtuelv> there are devices and scenarios where you are going to have less than that, I'm afraid
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19. # [00:10] <aho> should be a "should (if possible)" then instead of a weak "may"
20. # [00:10] <virtuelv> I'm really wary of user agent requirements
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31. # [00:11] <virtuelv> for user interface, that is
32. # [00:11] <virtuelv> because, mostly users, myself included are:
33. # [00:11] <virtuelv> a) uninterested in being interrupted by housekeeping tasks
34. # [00:11] <aho> if you don't ask (and then don't increase the alotted space)... what then? fail? truncate? both sounds sorta bad if the data is somewhat important to you... even more so if asking/increasing would have been possible
35. # [00:12] <virtuelv> b) Not qualified to answer in such dialogs
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44. # [00:14] <aho> flash for example asks... seems to work fine for them
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48. # [00:15] <virtuelv> aho: I'm saying that asking the user is never fine
49. # [00:15] <virtuelv> I haven't yet seen flash ask me that
50. # [00:16] <aho> it does if it needs to
51. # [00:16] <virtuelv> and if it did, I'd quickly abandon a web site that required that of me
52. # [00:16] <aho> some games need it
53. # [00:16] <aho> and maybe some bigger flash apps
54. # [00:16] <aho> and you'd abandon something because it takes another whopping 5mb?
55. # [00:16] <virtuelv> if you need that much _data_, webstorage is not it
56. # [00:17] <virtuelv> rather better caching
57. # [00:17] <aho> from your... like... 1.5tb hdd? :>
58. # [00:17] <virtuelv> ehm
59. # [00:17] <virtuelv> you are assuming people have 1.5TB
60. # [00:17] <aho> say 100gb
61. # [00:17] <aho> 5mb is nothing
62. # [00:18] <virtuelv> the reality is that on other devices than desktop, you're not likely to have 150 MB
63. # [00:18] <aho> now
64. # [00:18] <aho> things change, remember?
65. # [00:18] <virtuelv> no, they don't
66. # [00:18] <virtuelv> feature phones now have 40-80MB of built-in storage
67. # [00:18] <aho> so, back in the 80ies every kiddy ran around with a super computer in their pocket?
68. # [00:18] <aho> <:
69. # [00:18] <virtuelv> and small memory cards
70. # [00:19] <virtuelv> I have a phone that, nominally, has 32GB
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72. # [00:19] <aho> ipods started with what? 1gb? and now there are models with 64 or 128gb
73. # [00:20] <virtuelv> when I have filled that with what I actually care about having, such as my GPS turn-by-turn application and my music, I have so little space that I'd be pissed if a browser wasted it
74. # [00:20] <aho> an usb stick with 32mb used to be expensive
75. # [00:20] <aho> now you get 8bg for like 1/10 of the price
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77. # [00:21] <aho> stuff like that changes pretty quickly
78. # [00:21] <virtuelv> aho: the cookie size limit hasn't really moved in 15 years
79. # [00:22] <aho> eh... yea... of course
80. # [00:22] <virtuelv> it's either 2, 4 or possibly 5KB
81. # [00:22] <aho> you send em over the wire all the time
82. # [00:22] <virtuelv> and my tubes are 182 times wider than back then
83. # [00:23] <aho> all the time = any f-ing request
84. # [00:23] <aho> e.g. 50 times for one f5
85. # [00:23] <virtuelv> aho: you're missing my point:
86. # [00:23] <virtuelv> 5 MB is an ocean of storage
87. # [00:24] <aho> that doesn't mean you will never fill it up
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89. # [00:25] <aho> now, imagine you're using some web app which uses that storage to store the things you entered... you enter many things... over many many months... and then it's finally full... what then?
90. # [00:26] <aho> do you really think not asking the user would be nice in this kind of scenario would be a good idea?
91. # [00:26] <aho> - would be a good idea
92. # [00:26] <aho> :>
93. # [00:27] <aho> of course you could store all of that on the server side... but without that you can have a really cheap infrastructure
94. # [00:27] <aho> which is a very nice thing imo
95. # [00:28] <aho> also, offline mode
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147. # [02:41] <Hixie> anyone have any input on the name of the doc="" attribute?
148. # [02:41] <Hixie> body="" was suggested
149. # [02:42] <Hixie> seems about as reasonable
150. # [02:44] <nessy> I quite like using body - it raises the right expectations IMHO
151. # [02:46] <Hixie> yeah
152. # [02:46] <Hixie> was considering something like srcbody="" too
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154. # [02:53] <nessy> although … if it contains a full html file with header and all, body may be a bit too restrictive
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156. # [02:54] <Hixie> srcmarkup=""?
157. # [02:54] <Hixie> srcdata=""?
158. # [02:54] <daedb> contents="" ?
159. # [02:54] <Hixie> hmm
160. # [02:55] <nessy> it's either html or xhtml, right?
161. # [02:55] <Hixie> it's likely to be whatever the document is
162. # [02:55] <Hixie> so xml in xhtml, html in text/html
163. # [02:56] <nessy> @webdoc ? @webpage ?
164. # [02:56] <Hixie> question is, in xml, do we want to require the <html xmlns="..."><head><title/></head><body> ... </body></html> boilerplate?
165. # [02:56] <Hixie> if we do, then it's going to be far less useful in xml
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167. # [02:56] <Hixie> it's already less useful because XML escaping rules are ridiculous
168. # [02:56] <Hixie> (e.g. you must escape < in attribute values, iirc)
169. # [02:57] <daedb> Could you theoretically put for instance SVG in there?
170. # [02:57] <Hixie> (not to mention that a stray U+FFFF would kill the whole page, etc)
171. # [02:57] <Hixie> i guess
172. # [02:57] <Hixie> what would the use case be?
173. # [02:57] <daedb> I don't know, I haven't really followed the discussion :)
174. # [02:57] <Hixie> the main use case is for blog comments
175. # [02:58] <Hixie> which would mostly expect text/html, possibly with embedded svg or mathml
176. # [02:58] <Hixie> for text/html blogs anyway
177. # [02:58] <nessy> so, if we allow the contents of a body element, only, would that be helpful in avoiding the xml/html choice?
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179. # [03:00] <Hixie> xml/html choice?
180. # [03:00] <Hixie> it would affect what we call the attribute
181. # [03:00] <Hixie> don't think it would affect any xml/html issue
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185. # [03:01] <nessy> I mean: if we can avoid the need to put the boilerplate in and thus deal with xhtml or html the same way - is that possible?
186. # [03:01] <Hixie> xhtml and html are totally different
187. # [03:02] <Hixie> you can't treat them the same way
188. # [03:02] <Hixie> (however hard people insist on trying)
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190. # [03:02] <Hixie> so i don't think the boilerplate issue affects that per se
191. # [03:03] <Hixie> what it affects is whether the attribute is really giving the contents of a document's <html:body>, or whether it's giving a full document
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193. # [03:03] <nessy> I see
194. # [03:03] <nessy> so you would have a content-type attribute, too?
195. # [03:04] <Hixie> no, it would just be html in text/html docs, and xml in xml docs
196. # [03:04] <nessy> oh! now I get it.
197. # [03:05] <nessy> in that case I would not expect to have to repeat the boilerplate
198. # [03:05] <Hixie> (we don't want to require that non-web xhtml UAs have to include HTML parsers to be XHTML compliant)
199. # [03:05] <nessy> just use @body , I'd say - it's an additional piece of body text to be displayed
200. # [03:06] <Hixie> yeah, body and srcbody are the main candidates i think
201. # [03:06] <nessy> in fact, ppl might get the boilerplate wrong if they are required to repeat it - so that would avoid an additional source of errors IMO
202. # [03:06] <Hixie> (having "src" at the front is useful from a language usability point of view)
203. # [03:06] <nessy> yeah, makes sense
204. # [03:06] <Hixie> makes it long, though, and people might think it's a URL
205. # [03:06] <Hixie> language design is hard :-P
206. # [03:07] <nessy> yeah, I was just wondering about that
207. # [03:07] <Hixie> so much easier to reverse engineer mistakes other people have already made :-P
208. # [03:07] <Hixie> instead of having to make one's own
209. # [03:07] <nessy> I know! Tell me about it! I've experimented with so many names for the time-aligned text stuff!
210. # [03:07] <Hixie> yeah! exactly
211. # [03:08] <nessy> why not put an email out with your current state of mind and proposing @body and @srcbody and see what ppl say?
212. # [03:08] <nessy> at the same time propose to avoid the header boilerplate repetition
213. # [03:09] <Hixie> e-mail threads about names are rarely if ever useful
214. # [03:09] <Hixie> they just become big bikeshedding threads
215. # [03:09] <nessy> they will happen anyway, I fear
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217. # [03:09] <nessy> better to direct it than to come back as a flame war ;)
218. # [03:09] <Hixie> yeah but the more feedback you get on a name, the more people's opinions you eventually have to reject
219. # [03:09] <Hixie> :-)
220. # [03:10] <nessy> let others make the arguments on why to reject them ;)
221. # [03:10] <Hixie> anyway we already had that thread last week
222. # [03:10] <Hixie> that's where body="" came from
223. # [03:10] <Hixie> i think i might just go with body=""
224. # [03:11] <nessy> yeah, though a summary of the reasons and state of thinking is probably good to get everyone on board
225. # [03:11] <nessy> but I agree: if you choose @body and propose that, it has the same effect
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228. # [03:27] * karlcow is checking the code source of Nokia Forum http://www.forum.nokia.com/ xml namespaces and rdf in CDATA but text/html http://redbot.org/?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forum.nokia.com
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231. # [03:38] <Hixie> man describing the conformance criteria for <iframe body=""> is going to be interesting
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327. # [08:50] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: so I've ported over George's jing issue-35 patch to the validator-nu branch, with some tweaks
328. # [08:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: awesome
329. # [08:51] <MikeSmithX> I think I will have something ready to send you for review later today
330. # [08:52] <hsivonen> ok
331. # [08:52] <MikeSmithX> what I added was a way for it to distinguish between the case where a there is a choice among the missing attributes/elements, and the case where there's not
332. # [08:52] <MikeSmithX> for the case where there's not, it emits a separate error message for each missing attribute/element
333. # [08:53] <MikeSmithX> for the case where there's a choice, it emits, e.g., "Element object is missing one or more of the following attributes: data type."
334. # [08:54] <MikeSmithX> I realize that for the case where there's only two attributes/elements in the choice, that doesn't make so much sense.
335. # [08:55] <MikeSmithX> but I think there are other markup vocabs (DocBook, maybe) that have more complex choice cases than HTML does
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338. # [08:56] <MikeSmithX> as-is, what George's patch does is that it dumps out a text representation of the required content model
339. # [08:56] <MikeSmithX> basically RNC syntax
340. # [08:56] <MikeSmithX> but I think for most users that's probably not all that helpful
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342. # [08:57] <hsivonen> indeed
343. # [08:58] <MikeSmithX> so I think the ambiguity of "missing one or more of" is an acceptable tradeoff vs. exposing end users to raw, potentially complex RNC content models
344. # [08:58] <hsivonen> yeah
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347. # [08:58] <MikeSmithX> OK, anyway, I will try to get the patch wrapped up shortly
348. # [08:59] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: one thing I am not clear on is what the difference is in jing between the "required elements missing" case and what it calls the "unfinished element" case
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350. # [09:00] <hsivonen> IIRC, unfinished element is a special case of the former
351. # [09:00] <MikeSmithX> but in the v.nu message-emitter, I can see that both cases basically cause the same message to be emitted
352. # [09:00] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: OK
353. # [09:00] <MikeSmithX> for our purposes, it seems like the can be handled the same
354. # [09:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: I don't really know why Jing makes the distinction
355. # [09:00] <MikeSmithX> OK
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360. # [09:03] <hsivonen> aaargh. Gecko's HTML serializer can wrap lines inside tags
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363. # [09:10] <Hixie> i blogged the next chapter of my saga with t-mobile
364. # [09:11] <Hixie> in case anyone cares
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374. # [09:48] <Lachy> Hixie, clearly, you're not supposed to read or try to understand the bills from T-Mobile. You're just supposed to pay them whatever random amount they decide to charge you.
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376. # [09:51] <zcorpan> should doc="" be parsed as xml in xhtml5?
377. # [09:53] <hsivonen> I hope not
378. # [09:53] <hsivonen> HTMLness bit-dependent behavior for the lose
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380. # [09:54] <zcorpan> if not, then doc makes html parsing support required
381. # [09:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: theoretical purity or Real Problem? :-)
382. # [09:55] <zcorpan> former
383. # [09:55] <zcorpan> maybe the spec should require both html and xml support
384. # [09:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fixable by making doc not required for XHTML5-only UAs
385. # [09:56] <Lachy> hsivonen, why is the HTMLness bit-dependent behaviour bad for this?
386. # [09:56] <othermaciej> how does innerHTML work in XHTML5 documents? (does it?)
387. # [09:56] <hsivonen> othermaciej: depends on HTMLness bit
388. # [09:56] <hsivonen> othermaciej: per spec and per Gecko and IIRC WebKit
389. # [09:56] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Opera has nicer behavior but is in minority
390. # [09:56] <othermaciej> I hate varying DOM APIs or markup meaning based on the HTMLness bit, but whether to use the text/html or XML syntax seems one of the cases where it is most justified
391. # [09:57] <othermaciej> what I hate even more is varying APIs based on quirks mode :-/
392. # [09:57] <zcorpan> opera serializes innerHTML differently in xhtml
393. # [09:57] <hsivonen> Lachy: the problem is that changing one layer of the software stack changes behavior elsewhere
394. # [09:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oh.
395. # [09:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but still parses as HTML on setter?
396. # [09:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes
397. # [09:57] <hsivonen> not so nice, then
398. # [09:57] <zcorpan> no, it's completely bogus
399. # [09:58] <hsivonen> othermaciej: varying doc is essentially varying a DOM API upon setAttribute()
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401. # [09:59] <Lachy> I suppose if we do make doc HTMLness bit-dependant, then it would mean that scripts interacting with the attribute may have to vary their behaviour based on whether the document is HTML or XHTML.
402. # [09:59] <hsivonen> my thinking is that text/html vs. application/xhtml+xml choice should affect the hop from server to DOM
403. # [10:00] <hsivonen> but making various other things change behavior, too, doesn't maintain clean layering in theory and in practice makes it harder to change the hop from server to DOM
404. # [10:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that is a plausible view - but there are DOM APIs that differ which we aren't really free to change, so it seems more valuable to me to keep markup syntax consistency within each serialization
405. # [10:01] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I wish there were separate APIs for interacting via HTML and XML serializations, so you could pick one explicitly instead of it being based on your MIME type
406. # [10:01] <hsivonen> othermaciej: IIRC, this was argued differently when I suggested cloning WebKit's HTMLness bit dependency in XMLSerializer into Gecko
407. # [10:05] <hsivonen> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533897%28VS.85%29.aspx
408. # [10:05] <hsivonen> Documentation mention defer in the context of innerHTML
409. # [10:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think it would be rather confusing if parsing wasn't internally cnsistent within one document
410. # [10:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think we should have html="..." and xml='...' and the author should use the one that matches the page in order to avoid self-confusion
411. # [10:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: it sucks to change JS library behavior when changing how the DOM gets built
412. # [10:10] <hsivonen> so JS libs could still use setAttribute("html", "...") on XHTML pages
413. # [10:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: Apart from that being really ugly, I would expect people to cargo-cult @xml into html documents and get a world of pain out
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415. # [10:12] <Dashiva> It also seems to crash with being able to only support one of HTML and XHTML
416. # [10:12] <jgraham> In general I don't think that XHTML is a significant enough use case that we should be designing more markup to make it work slightly better
417. # [10:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: in that case, doc='' should parse as HTML also in XHTML docs
418. # [10:13] <hsivonen> jgraham: if the party line is that XHTML isn't significant enough
419. # [10:14] <Dashiva> XHTML should be done with proper serialization and stuff, so it seems very simple to use src="data:..." for that
420. # [10:14] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I believe I said at the time that I would prefer to have separate APIs for getting XML and HTML serializations, instead of yet another switchy one
421. # [10:15] <othermaciej> hsivonen: but I don't 100% recall
422. # [10:15] <hsivonen> othermaciej: right. so wouldn't it be consistent to want explicitly flagged HTML vs. XML here, too, instead of making doc='...' depend on the HTMLness bit?
423. # [10:15] <othermaciej> I think you wanted to add an explicit way to pick one serialization or the other that struck me as awkard to use and thus I suggested the alternative
424. # [10:16] <othermaciej> hsivonen: the direct analogy would be to have both xmlDoc and htmlDoc
425. # [10:17] <hsivonen> othermaciej: so that DOM properties would act differently from setAttribute?
426. # [10:17] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I didn't imply any such difference
427. # [10:17] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ah. xmlDoc and htmlDoc look like DOM properties. Did you imply there'd be xml-doc and html-doc content attributes?
428. # [10:18] <othermaciej> oh sure, they could be spelled like that
429. # [10:18] <othermaciej> (hard for me to remember what is the predominant convention in HTML)
430. # [10:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: I also don't think it makes any sense to change the defacto behaviour of innerHTML for this rather similar case
431. # [10:18] <othermaciej> I'm not saying it's necessarily the best solution
432. # [10:18] <othermaciej> just that it's the most aligned with my past idea that you referenced
433. # [10:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: why would we dig the hole deeper in this case if we didn't keep digging the hole deeper with XMLSerializer?
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437. # [10:22] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't really know what happened with XMLSerializer so I can't defend that
438. # [10:23] <jgraham> But I am more concerned with parsing being consisntent than serializing
439. # [10:23] <jgraham> *consistent
440. # [10:23] <othermaciej> I think there was a discussion of making it auto-switch serializations instead of always outputting XML, and hsivonen suggested a possible way to explicitly pick one or the other
441. # [10:23] <othermaciej> for doc, it's definitely parsing that matters
442. # [10:24] <jgraham> For serialiazing with a dedicated serializer API having a switch makes a lot of sense
443. # [10:25] <hsivonen> I don't see how serializing is different from setAttribute("html", "...") when it comes to decoupling behavior from how the DOM tree got built
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445. # [10:25] <hsivonen> doh. setAttribute("doc", "...")
446. # [10:25] <othermaciej> decoupling is not the sole relevant consideration here
447. # [10:25] <othermaciej> that particular decoupling rather
448. # [10:26] <othermaciej> it just seems odd that embedded inline markup in an XML document would be HTML
449. # [10:26] <Lachy> I think we need to focus on author expectations for this issue, rather than ease of implementation.
450. # [10:26] <othermaciej> if there were a way to choose explicitly, it might seem less weird that making the choice works in both serializations
451. # [10:26] <hsivonen> othermaciej: depends on what your mental model is for the layering of things
452. # [10:26] <othermaciej> thus, the fact that data: URIs don't switch doesn't seem weird
453. # [10:27] <othermaciej> because they explicitly use a mime type
454. # [10:27] <hsivonen> othermaciej: in my mental model, parsing attribute contents is on a different layer on top of parsing the document proper
455. # [10:27] <othermaciej> thus, html-doc="" / xml-doc="" (or just html="" / xml="") would not strike me as even slightly odd
456. # [10:27] <Lachy> maybe we could have a mode attribute to go along with doc, so authors could do <iframe doc="..." docmode="xml">
457. # [10:27] <othermaciej> hsivonen: yeah, but you actually know how the internals work
458. # [10:28] * Joins: tametick (n=chatzill@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
459. # [10:28] <othermaciej> Lachy: or a type="" attribute...
460. # [10:28] <othermaciej> Lachy: though I am not sure an open-ended set of types is needed
461. # [10:28] <Philip`> Since lots of authors think they're writing XHTML even when they're actually writing text/html, they'd probably pick xml-doc, which would be bad because it's not really what they expect and it will be confusing
462. # [10:28] <Lachy> though, maybe the default such an attribute would have to depend on the serialisation
463. # [10:28] * jgraham is not sure support for xml-inside-html is needed at all
464. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I actually think html="..." might be more clear than doc="..." and doc="..." mode="html" seems unhelpfully more verbose
465. # [10:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: Anne's blog is a potential use case :-)
466. # [10:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: In what way?
467. # [10:29] <Lachy> it might be needed if you wanted to embed SVG as XML within HTML in order to make use of XML-only features, like namespaces
468. # [10:30] <jgraham> Lachy: If people are doing that we should fix the problem that their use cases cannot be met in the HTML serialization
469. # [10:30] <Lachy> jgraham, I don't think a significant number of people should be doing that
470. # [10:31] <jgraham> Lachy: OK so it's probably not a use case worth worrying about
471. # [10:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: Anne's comment processing is XML.
472. # [10:31] <zcorpan> anne's blog is a big hack
473. # [10:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: so if he wanted to sandbox comments, he could emit the comments as XML even though Anne's own content is HTML
474. # [10:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: many parts of the Web are
475. # [10:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: Why? I don't understand why one would choose to open oneself up to the pain of using XML just for user generated content
476. # [10:32] <Philip`> People who want to do anything fancy with XML can use src="data:application/xhtml+xml,..." and serialise it properly (as Dashiva said) - the whole point of doc="..." is to make the common case more convenient for authors, and the common case is HTML-in-HTML, and it shouldn't be complexified to cope with edge cases that can already be handled with data:
477. # [10:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: works as a bozo filter for Anne :-)
478. # [10:32] <jgraham> Philip`++
479. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm OK with that if doc in XHTML parses as HTML, too
480. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm OK with XHTML in XHTML people having to use data:
481. # [10:33] <hsivonen> what I'm not OK with is doc depending on the HTMLness bit of the host DOM
482. # [10:33] <zcorpan> i'm ok with doc always being parsed as html
483. # [10:33] <zcorpan> i don't like having two attributes
484. # [10:34] * Philip` doesn't care what happens to it in XHTML because that's not the common case
485. # [10:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't really see how your objection is more than theoretical purity given that the htmlness bit already bleeds into innerHTML and it seems more likely to align with author expectations if all markup on a page is parsed in the same way
486. # [10:34] <Philip`> (as long as what happens to it in XHTML doesn't cause the feature to become any more complex in text/html)
487. # [10:35] <zcorpan> if you adoptNode an iframe, would doc change interpretation?
488. # [10:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: is the author expectation that if they use XHTML, innerHTML setter in the bowels of a minified JS lib breaks?
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490. # [10:37] <Philip`> jgraham: I suppose it has a practical consequence for HTML-to-XHTML/XHTML-to-HTML conversion tools that don't support scripts
491. # [10:37] <Philip`> jgraham: because it would (I think?) be the first non-scripted leaking of HTMLness
492. # [10:37] <jgraham> Philip`: In that you would have to parse and reserialize the attribute?
493. # [10:38] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess library authors have to be careful to deal with that or just not support XHTML
494. # [10:39] <Philip`> jgraham: Yes
495. # [10:39] <jgraham> biab
496. # [10:39] <othermaciej> it seems like case sensitivity is likely to bite them before innerHTML
497. # [10:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: .localName FTW!
498. # [10:39] <zcorpan> no-one uses localName
499. # [10:39] <zcorpan> and localName doesn't work in ie :)
500. # [10:39] <hsivonen> well, once Opera makes their localName compliant, too
501. # [10:40] <zcorpan> it's on our to-do list but not at the top
502. # [10:40] <othermaciej> it might have been smarter in retrospect to add innerXML
503. # [10:40] <othermaciej> or outerXML
504. # [10:40] * hsivonen wonders if IE9 has DOM Level 2 as part of the rumored SVG work
505. # [10:40] <othermaciej> whichever makes sense, if any
506. # [10:40] <othermaciej> instead of overloading innerHTML
507. # [10:41] <othermaciej> hsivonen: maybe they'll get really excited and implement the SVG uDOM
508. # [10:41] <othermaciej> complete with Traits!
509. # [10:43] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
510. # [10:43] * hsivonen doesn't know what Traits in uDOM is
511. # [10:45] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.mh.bbc.co.uk)
512. # [10:45] <zcorpan> don't forget SMIL :)
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514. # [10:46] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
515. # [10:46] <zcorpan> wow i now don't have any unread html-related emails
516. # [10:46] <hsivonen> hmm. What's the point of Traits compared to the old HTML way of having real IDL properties for typed reflection of content attributes
517. # [10:46] <hsivonen> NIH?
518. # [10:47] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Yes, mark-all-as-read makes that quite easy.
519. # [10:48] <Hixie> Lachy: i'd almost be happy with just paying them whatever random amount they charge me, the problem is they simultaneously charge me different amounts!
520. # [10:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the HTML way was too simple and convenient
521. # [10:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: is T-Mobile the only operator with a network that actually works?
522. # [10:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, does the U.S. have virtual operators operating on top of concrete networks?
523. # [10:51] <Hixie> no, but it's the only operator i know of with a no-contract unlimited data plan compatible with the nexus one currently
524. # [10:51] <Hixie> i do not believe there are virtual operators
525. # [10:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: that is, can you get on T-Mobile's network by dealing with someone else for billing
526. # [10:52] <hsivonen> ok
527. # [10:52] <Hixie> dsl has some
528. # [10:52] <Hixie> i never understood the idea of virtual operators
529. # [10:52] <Hixie> but anyway
530. # [10:52] <hsivonen> looks like the U.S. has lots of telco regulation to add in order to catch up
531. # [10:52] <Lachy> Hixie, the uncertainty principle seems to be applying here. The more you know about the details of the charges, the less you know about what the charges are.
532. # [10:53] <workmad3> ah, the banking uncertainty principle :)
533. # [10:53] <Hixie> Lachy: seems that way
534. # [10:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: having virtual operators decouples competition on customer service from owning the cell towers
535. # [10:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: doesn't seem to help much with the dsl operators as i understand it
536. # [10:54] <Hixie> you just get more options to choose your crappy service from
537. # [10:54] <hsivonen> and you get more points of failure
538. # [10:54] <Hixie> yeah
539. # [10:54] <hsivonen> I used to have DSL from an operator that didn't own the copper
540. # [10:55] <hsivonen> when problems showed up, my realistic recourse was switching to a cable modem
541. # [10:55] * Hixie is pretty sure his t-mobile account is now correctly set up to have the proper "android data" plan, but the phone can still only get a walled garden TCP/IP network, not the Real Web
542. # [10:55] <hsivonen> fortunately, a cable modem works instantly after signing the contract
543. # [10:56] <Hixie> hahahahaha
544. # [10:56] <Hixie> you clearly aren't familiar with US cable modems!
545. # [10:57] <Hixie> cable modems here can even stop working randomly AFTER they were working!
546. # [10:57] <Hixie> for no reason other than the cable operator's billing software randomly decides to cut you off without terminating the billing cycle!
547. # [10:57] <hsivonen> hmm. what's up with the validator.nu DNS
548. # [10:58] <Dashiva> I can't believe we're talking about poetry again
549. # [10:59] <Lachy> We have many virtual operators in Australia. There have been problems with this model too, though, since for a long time, Telstra's wholesale division had a monopoly on much of the infrastructure.
550. # [11:01] <Lachy> at least, that was the case with copper phone lines and the Cable and ADSL network points in the exchanges. Not so much with mobile towers.
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552. # [11:02] <zcorpan> oooh now we have next week in html
553. # [11:02] <zcorpan> http://blog.whatwg.org/whats-next-in-html-episode-1
554. # [11:04] <Dashiva> From HTML+RDFa: "This mechanism should be double-checked against all of the RDFa Javascript implementations to ensure correctness."
555. # [11:05] <Dashiva> Tail wagging the dog?
556. # [11:05] <zcorpan> seems like a good idea to check against implementations
557. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Dashiva: cool to see that RDFa is adopting the HTML5 way of implementations wagging the spec instead of the XHTML2 way of the dog and the tail being separate
558. # [11:07] <Dashiva> Well, except there's no real legacy to be concerned with here
559. # [11:08] <Dashiva> And the implementations aren't exactly time-tested either
560. # [11:08] <hsivonen> Dashiva: both good points
561. # [11:10] <zcorpan> Hixie: the whatwg spec should be called "HTML (director's cut)"
562. # [11:10] <zcorpan> or maybe "HTML (editor's split)"
563. # [11:11] <hsivonen> Editor's split seems more accurate, since the Director might cut it differently
564. # [11:11] <zcorpan> the whatwg doesn't have a Director, does it?
565. # [11:11] <hsivonen> good point
566. # [11:12] <Dashiva> zcorpan: It is the editor's draft already :P
567. # [11:12] <Hixie> i can't work out a good way to make <iframe body=""> work for the xml mode. All the options suck. Making it use text/html is bad because it means authors who want to use XML can't get away from text/html. Making it imply the boilerplate, effectively giving it a <body> context, is bad because it means you can't give style sheets, etc, in case you are trying to sandbox something more complicated than a blog comment. making it be just a straight xml doc is bad becaus
568. # [11:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: you got cut off at "straight xml doc is bad becaus"
569. # [11:13] <zcorpan> Hixie: your comment was cut off at " straight xml doc is bad becaus"
570. # [11:13] <zcorpan> damn
571. # [11:13] <Dashiva> What is the use case for @body? In HTML you can leave out all the boilerplate except doctype and title, and in XHTML you get the boilerplate for free from your serialization setup anyhow
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573. # [11:16] <Hixie> ...because it means the common case has oodles of boilerplate
574. # [11:16] <Dashiva> The common case is HTML
575. # [11:16] <Hixie> the common case supposing XHTML is being used
576. # [11:16] <Philip`> Hixie: Authors who want XML can get away from text/html by not using <iframe doc>
577. # [11:17] <Philip`> just like they'd not use <iframe src=data:text/html,...>
578. # [11:17] <Hixie> if it's a feature text/html authors will want, why won't xml authors want it?
579. # [11:17] <Dashiva> Because they have infrastructure to do it automatically?
580. # [11:17] <Hixie> Dashiva: the use case is mainly CMSes including user-provided comments safely without filtering
581. # [11:17] <Hixie> why would xml authors have the infrastructure but not html authors?
582. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: because there are approximately 2 blogs that have comments and are served as XML
583. # [11:17] <Dashiva> Because XML requires well-formedness
584. # [11:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: sure, today
585. # [11:18] <Dashiva> I'll turn it around: We shouldn't encourage people making XHTML without proper infrastructure
586. # [11:20] <Hixie> that seems a bit arrogant
587. # [11:22] <Philip`> Why is "oodles of boilerplate" a problem?
588. # [11:23] <Philip`> It's only like <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head><title/></head><body>...</body></html> a single time in one of your template files
589. # [11:23] <Philip`> and you'll already have that a zillion times in all your other template files
590. # [11:24] <Philip`> and people using XHTML will want to put lots of extra namespace declarations on the <html> and will be unhappy and confused if they can't
591. # [11:25] <Philip`> (and will want lang and xml:lang on <html> too)
592. # [11:25] <Philip`> (They could wrap the content in a <div> and put attributes there but nobody ever does that)
593. # [11:26] <Philip`> (so it'd be weird and confusing to expect them to do so)
594. # [11:27] * Philip` goes away
595. # [11:27] <Hixie> seems kinda stupid to require that they write <iframe doc='&lt;html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"&gt;&lt;head&gt;&lt;title/&gt;&lt;/head&gt;&lt;body&gt;
596. # [11:27] <Hixie> just to get to the point where in text/html you would just write <iframe doc="
597. # [11:28] <hsivonen> it's generated by The Tooling!
598. # [11:28] <hsivonen> XML is all about The Toolchain
599. # [11:29] <Dashiva> The namespaces and other magic attributes are also a good point
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601. # [11:30] <Hixie> man, you guys are really against helping out xml authors
602. # [11:31] <Dashiva> How is it help?
603. # [11:31] <hsivonen> I'm not against helping them, but not giving them the stuff they usually like to hang NS decls on doesn't look like helping to me
604. # [11:31] <Hixie> not all people who will one day use xml are TAG members
605. # [11:31] <Hixie> some are realy web authors
606. # [11:31] <Dashiva> Helping them generate non-wellformed content?
607. # [11:31] <Hixie> s/y//
608. # [11:35] <jgraham> Hixie: Well some are TAG members, some are HTMLWG chairs and some are high energy physicists
609. # [11:37] <othermaciej> is anyone all three?
610. # [11:37] <Dashiva> I don't think any of the chairs are physicists
611. # [11:38] <Dashiva> (So we don't have to check the TAG)
612. # [11:38] <othermaciej> then 2 would be the maximal overlap
613. # [11:38] <othermaciej> but wait, should we count past and/or future chairs?
614. # [11:39] <Dashiva> Future is a bit iffy
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617. # [11:53] <Hixie> i don't understand why the "applicable specifications" stuff is so hard for people to understand
618. # [11:53] <Hixie> it's just a description of what has always been the case
619. # [11:53] <Hixie> did people just not realise that's what was going on?
620. # [11:54] <jgraham> People seem to think it is magic for some reason
621. # [11:54] <othermaciej> most specs do not explicitly allow that other specs can modify them
622. # [11:55] <jgraham> But all specs can effectively be modified by other specs
623. # [11:55] <othermaciej> the people who are finicky about such things made Modularization
624. # [11:55] <othermaciej> the people who are not just went ahead and defined ad-hoc extension specs without permission from the spec being extended
625. # [11:56] <Hixie> HTTP isn't "modular" but people extended that and nobody seems to have a problem with the concept
626. # [11:56] <Dashiva> They have a problem with the concept if you tell them about it
627. # [11:57] <Hixie> it's like half the standards community is living in an orwellian "doublethink" world
628. # [11:57] <othermaciej> I think it's explicitly acknowledging the potential for add-on extensions without formally defining an extension point as such that bothers people
629. # [11:57] <othermaciej> though I'm not even sure it's fair to say that
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631. # [11:58] <othermaciej> I think there is this idea that either there needs to be a central authority declaring which specs are applicable, or an open-ended extension mechanism where some sort of distributed namespacing allows people to invent extensions with no coordination at all
632. # [11:59] <Hixie> so why are things like WebDAV ok?
633. # [11:59] <othermaciej> does the HTTP RFC say anything about other specs defining additional methods?
634. # [11:59] <Hixie> not as far as i know
635. # [11:59] <othermaciej> (I don't remember)
636. # [12:00] <othermaciej> I don't know that it "bothers" anyone, I think some people are just confused
637. # [12:00] <othermaciej> if a number of people are confused it might be a sign that the spec could be more clear
638. # [12:01] <Hixie> wooo, my phone works finally
639. # [12:01] <Hixie> i had to get it to rejoin the network to get t-mobile to consider what plans i had set up, i guess
640. # [12:02] <othermaciej> I think what might be confusing is that "applicable specification" sounds like a standardese term of art for getting some sort of official blessing or jumping through some hoop, even though HTML5 itself says no such thing
641. # [12:04] <Hixie> not much i can do if people aren't going to read the spec before getting confused
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643. # [12:10] <Lachy> was my explanation about applicable specifications good, or do you think it's just going to cause more confusion?
644. # [12:11] <Hixie> seemed fine to me, but then i don't understand what the confusion is
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646. # [12:11] <Lachy> As I understood it, the confusion seemed to be about who or what gave any particular spec the blessing to be an applicable specification.
647. # [12:12] <Hixie> nothing
648. # [12:12] <Lachy> I know that.
649. # [12:12] <Lachy> But there seemed to be an assumption that there would have to be.
650. # [12:12] <Hixie> why?
651. # [12:12] <Lachy> I don't know
652. # [12:12] <Lachy> I'm not the one confused by it. I just tried to explain the situation to those who are.
653. # [12:13] <Hixie> i don't get why it's not obvious, as it apparently has been with specs before
654. # [12:13] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
655. # [12:15] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think with previous specs, if you wanted to validate against HTML + something else, you were obligated to make a DTD or similar that included some or all of HTML
656. # [12:15] <othermaciej> at least, that was the expected model
657. # [12:16] <othermaciej> but now someone could make an HTML5 + MathML 3.0 + SVG 1.1 + Microdata + ARIA validator without making a single schema or DTD including them all
658. # [12:16] <jgraham> It seems pretty weird to tie the abstract notion of conformance to a particuar technology for assessing conformance
659. # [12:16] <Hixie> didn't stop <canvas> from being added
660. # [12:16] <othermaciej> they can just do it
661. # [12:16] <Hixie> or ARIA
662. # [12:16] <othermaciej> sure, and <canvas> didn't validate and no one cared
663. # [12:17] <Hixie> or WF2
664. # [12:17] <othermaciej> for ARIA there was the whole detour of pretending to use XML and namespaces and such
665. # [12:17] <othermaciej> anyway
666. # [12:17] <othermaciej> you're preaching to the choir
667. # [12:17] <othermaciej> I'm trying to explain why people might not fully grok the idea
668. # [12:17] <othermaciej> or at least my best guess
669. # [12:18] <othermaciej> telling me why they are wrong helps neither me nor them
670. # [12:18] <othermaciej> though if you are merely rejecting my guesses as ill-founded, then I will concede your guess is as good as mine
671. # [12:20] <Hixie> i'm just confused
672. # [12:20] <Hixie> not trying to say anyone is wrong or anything
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678. # [12:38] <Philip`> jgraham: Maybe the difference is that you think conformance is an abstract notion, whereas other people think conformance is what a conformance checker tells you by applying the mechanistic conformance rules that the specification specifies
679. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: ITYM s/specification/DTD/
680. # [12:39] <Philip`> and they don't accept a notion of conformance where you can't even tell whether a document conforms to HTML5 by looking at its bytes, never mind telling whether it conforms to a more complex set of specification documents
681. # [12:39] <Philip`> hsivonen: I'm imagining those hypothetical people would accept any kind of schema language, not just DTD
682. # [12:40] <Philip`> as long as it's one you can feed into a schema checker tool and get a boolean output
683. # [12:40] <Dashiva> And these people are the ones who decided how an XML document is defined?
684. # [12:42] <Philip`> They're not the same people who decided to hard-code DTDs into XML (or they're the same people but in the future, where they've realised other schema languages might be better)
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691. # [13:16] <jre> othermaciej, hixie: yes, RFC 2616 does allow wextension methods (http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2616.html#rfc.section.5.1.1)
692. # [13:16] * Quits: jre (n=chatzill@mail.greenbytes.de) (Client Quit)
693. # [13:16] <Hixie> how about response codes?
694. # [13:23] * Joins: jre (n=chatzill@mail.greenbytes.de)
695. # [13:23] <jre> Hixie, same thing (http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2616.html#rfc.section.6.1.1)
696. # [13:24] <jre> I mean, it's easy to check so I was confused about the confusion over here
697. # [13:25] <Hixie> extension-code doesn't seem to have any semantic meaning defined anywhere
698. # [13:25] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
699. # [13:25] <Hixie> or are you saying I could return HTTP/1.1 999 OK and it would be conforming?
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701. # [13:26] <jre> according to the ABNF yes
702. # [13:26] <jre> according to the prose in 6.1.1 no
703. # [13:26] <Hixie> so is it conforming or not?
704. # [13:27] <Hixie> i can't see anything saying it isn't
705. # [13:27] <Hixie> which seems suboptimal
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707. # [13:28] <jre_> "The first digit of the Status-Code defines the class of response. The last two digits do not have any categorization role. There are 5 values for the first digit:"
708. # [13:29] <jre_> ...
709. # [13:29] <Hixie> so HTTP/1.1 199 OK is conforming?
710. # [13:29] <jre_> yes
711. # [13:29] <Hixie> that seems... bad?
712. # [13:29] <jre_> why?
713. # [13:29] <Hixie> what does it mean?
714. # [13:29] <jre_> ask the status code registry
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738. # [13:30] <jre_> if the recipient doesn't understand it, treat it as 100
739. # [13:30] <jre_> "However, applications MUST understand the class of any status code, as indicated by the first digit, and treat any unrecognized response as being equivalent to the x00 status code of that class, with the exception that an unrecognized response MUST NOT be cached."
740. # [13:30] * jre_ is now known as jre
741. # [13:30] <Hixie> ah, ok, so http uses a registry-based centralised extensibility mechanism
742. # [13:30] <Hixie> ok
743. # [13:31] <jre> The question was: does HTTP allow extension methods or status codes, and the answer is "yes". How they are registered is orthogonal.
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746. # [13:31] <Dashiva> Does it allow new classes? E.g. 7xx codes
747. # [13:31] <Hixie> i'm just trying to learn about the various extension mechanisms
748. # [13:31] <jre> Dashiva, no
749. # [13:31] <Hixie> maybe what html5 says is rarer than i thought
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771. # [13:32] <Hixie> (does anything actually require that extension-codes be registered before they are used?)
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774. # [13:32] <jre> not in RFC 2616, the status code registry was introduced later
775. # [13:32] <Hixie> so what does 199 mean if it's not in the registry?
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777. # [13:33] <jre> http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2817.html#rfc.section.7.1
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779. # [13:33] <jre> it means the same thing as 100 for recipients that don't understand it
780. # [13:33] <jre> so a definition of 199 would need to be consistent with the generic status code 100
781. # [13:34] <Hixie> but no definition need exist before i start using it?
782. # [13:34] <Hixie> per http?
783. # [13:34] <Lachy> Leif's response seems confusing. She seems to be suggesting that putting extensions through the W3C process is good, while at the same time advocating methods for arbitrary extensions that bypass that.
784. # [13:34] <jre> RFC 2817 updates RFC 2616 and requires you to register the code
785. # [13:35] <Hixie> oh so the lack of requiring a registry was a bug?
786. # [13:35] <jre> if you don't register you are on your own with respect to collisions, nothing new here
787. # [13:35] <Hixie> (where does 2817 actually require that the codes be registered? i can't see that anywhere)
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789. # [13:36] <jre> there are extension points that don't even have a registry today, simply because nobody has asked for it yet
790. # [13:36] <jre> I think range extensions fall into the category
791. # [13:36] <Hixie> seems weird to have extension points that allow arbitrary values without needing them to be defined
792. # [13:36] <jre> you can always write a standards track RFC which updates RFC 2616, and then you're safe (as long as the IESG pays attention)
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1042. # [13:56] <Lachy> damn, these constant splits are annoying
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1044. # [13:57] <Lachy> according to discussion in #freenode, it still seems to be a DDoS against the network
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1055. # [13:57] <Dashiva> Isn't it always?
1056. # [13:59] <Philip`> Maybe it's sometimes a CDoS instead
1057. # [13:59] <Lachy> yeah, but this one is particularly bad against the freenode network cause their system hasn't been updated to prevent it yet. It's caused by some javascript in a web page that sends a POST to the irc.freenode.net:6667 network with dozens IRC commands designed to flood it
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1069. # [14:00] <Lachy> so whenever anyone inadvertently visits the page, usually linked to by spam comments on slashdot or whatever, their browser basically becomes an IRC spam bot
1070. # [14:00] <Philip`> Why does an IRC server react to HTTP requests?
1071. # [14:00] <Lachy> it's what most likely caused Opera's Oslo office to be banned from the freenode network yesterday
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1074. # [14:02] <Philip`> Opera employees spend all their time reading spam comments on Slashdot instead of working?
1075. # [14:02] <hsivonen> Lachy: what mechanism allows automated POST to port 6667 for a different origin?
1076. # [14:02] <hsivonen> Lachy: form.submit()?
1077. # [14:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: Tyhat should work
1078. # [14:03] <jgraham> *that
1079. # [14:03] <Lachy> hsivonen, yes. The script I was shown yesterday has now disappeared and I don't know where any other copies are being hosted.
1080. # [14:03] <hsivonen> does the Web depend on it working for ports other than the http and https defaults?
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1084. # [14:04] <Lachy> it was basically <form action="http://irc.freenode.net:6667" method="POST"> with a script that filled up a textarea with about a hundred IRC PRVMSG commands commands and submitted it
1085. # [14:05] <Lachy> er, I think that's PRIVMSG
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1089. # [14:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: Yes
1090. # [14:08] <Philip`> http://samsung-sgh-i400-software.epocware.com/es/SlovoEd/Hebrew.html - <form name="login" action="http://g500.penreader.com:8080/paragon_mcd/ecare/index.jsp?submit" method="post">
1091. # [14:09] <Philip`> etc, assuming that's what you mean
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1093. # [14:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: :-(
1094. # [14:11] <Philip`> Seems it'd be quite a violation of layering if HTML refused to accept URLs with certain TCP port numbers
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1378. # [15:45] <Philip`> Is it intentional that the discussion about "drawfocus()" seems to be talking about something quite different to the spec's drawFocusRing()?
1379. # [15:46] <Philip`> since the latter is meant to be something you call for every element that you draw, regardless of whether it's focused or not, and it will only draw if the element is focused
1380. # [15:46] <Philip`> but people seem to be talking about some kind of method that you only call on focused elements, or on elements that you want to become focused
1381. # [15:47] <hsivonen> Philip`: point worth making on the list!
1382. # [15:48] * Philip` didn't even realise the spec had a drawFocusRing method, until half an hour ago
1383. # [15:50] * hsivonen didn't realize that a method named drawfoo wouldn't draw
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1386. # [15:57] <hsivonen> if braille and tactile are distinct and speech and audio are distinct, should (fontified) text and image be distinct media?
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1391. # [18:06] * Disconnected
1392. # [18:08] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
1393. # [18:08] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
1394. # [18:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
1395. # [18:08] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
1396. # [20:08] * Disconnected
1397. # [20:09] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
1398. # [20:09] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
1399. # [20:09] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
1400. # [20:09] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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1410. # [20:41] <Pure> Hmm, do we have a generic web design channel?#
1411. # [20:45] <FireFly> I think there's a #web
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1416. # [20:53] <Pure> OOI, is html5 more of an upgrade to js, than to core html?
1417. # [20:54] <Philip`> It does both - there's lots of new/fixed stuff in the markup, and lots of new script APIs too
1418. # [20:54] <Philip`> (It doesn't change the JS language, though - that's for the ES5 people to do)
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1433. # [21:38] <rittyan> hello, who can I ask about documentation of python module html5lib? it is not available on google code hosting
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1437. # [21:49] <rittyan> specifically, why it returns <None> all the time, whatever html I feed into it
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1440. # [21:58] <rittyan> ah, its repr is <None> for some reason
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1443. # [22:02] <Philip`> rittyan: What treebuilder are you using?
1444. # [22:02] <Philip`> If it's something like lxml, I guess it's implemented as a native object and can't be repred
1445. # [22:02] <rittyan> simpletree, now switched to beatifulsoup, works fine
1446. # [22:03] <Philip`> BeautifulSoup is a bit broken and unrecommended
1447. # [22:03] <rittyan> what is recommended then? i have no legacy code yet
1448. # [22:04] <Philip`> lxml works best, as far as I'm aware
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1450. # [22:04] <rittyan> hm, okay
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1455. # [22:20] <jgraham> rittyan: Oh the <None> thing doesn't mean anything went wrong, it's just a relly bad representation for the document root node
1456. # [22:21] <jgraham> (but in general I would recommend not using simpletree for anything important)
1457. # [22:21] <rittyan> yes, weird repr
1458. # [22:21] <rittyan> jgraham: so, lxml?
1459. # [22:21] <jgraham> rittyan: That is what I typically use
1460. # [22:22] <jgraham> (so it is the bet tested, but also the most complex for various technical reasons)
1461. # [22:22] <jgraham> *best
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1478. # [23:22] <dimich> The dataTransfer being 'Empty' on dragenter and dragover is a security feature. It doesn't even expose the set of mime types of dragged files. How can a page decide whether or not it can accept the drop? Is exposing of mime type a risk?
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1491. # [23:49] <Lachy> Philip`, focus rings are not always ugly.
1492. # [23:50] <Lachy> Maybe on Linux and Windows they are. But on OS X, normal focus rings are actually quite well designed and look quite nice
1493. # [23:57] <Philip`> Lachy: OS-provided stylings are unlikely to fit well with all the random stylings people will use in their canvases, and the inconsistency will make it ugly (even if it'd look nice with the standard OS widget set and theme)
1494. # [23:59] <Lachy> if it's so bad, then authors can draw custom focus rings.
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1496. # Session Close: Thu Jan 21 00:00:00 2010

The end :)