/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 22 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:07] <remysharp> quick question: with a web socket, is there any way to 'reopen' a socket if the socket go closed? Or do I just create a brand new WebSocket?
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  11. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Hmm. Opera seems not to update the suggestions list from <datalist> until you press a key. This makes it fairly useless for dynamic scripting.
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  14. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> data:text/html,<!doctype html><input list="datalist" onkeypress="document.getElementById('datalist').innerHTML = '<option value=&quot;' + event.target.value + 'fizzle&quot;>'; return true"><datalist id="datalist"></datalist>
  15. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Notice how it lags behind what you type by one key.
  16. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> Any workaround? Should I file this in Opera's bug tracker where I never see any response and don't get any status notifications ever?
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  18. # [00:21] <Lachy> what does the spec say about the issue?
  19. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> It doesn't, it's very vague, as with all UI issues. But it seems wrong if I update the datalist and the suggestions don't actually display right away.
  20. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> I'd expect them to display immediately (if suggestions would normally be displayed right now).
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  23. # [00:23] <Lachy> AryehGregor, I would recommend filing a bug anyway, since it's obviosly not well optimised for the use cases it's meant for
  24. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> I was going to convert mwsuggest.js to use <datalist> where supported, but I guess I won't if the suggestions are for what you typed in on the last key . . .
  25. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> You mean a spec bug?
  26. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Or an Opera bug?
  27. # [00:23] <Lachy> Opera bug
  28. # [00:24] <Lachy> but you could file a spec bug too, if you think the spec needs to say something about this
  29. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  30. # [00:24] <Lachy> though, it is a UI issue, so maybe it doesn't
  31. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Last time I filed an Opera bug (also about a problem with Opera HTML5 implementation) I never got a response.
  32. # [00:24] <Philip`> All you need to do is get yourself employed by Opera, so you can access the bug tracker
  33. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> I don't think the spec needs to say anything here, although I'll have other suggestions about <datalist>.
  34. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Philip`, why didn't I ever think of that
  35. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> ?
  36. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> "Spec violation – Opera is performing contrary to published, interworking recommendations by the W3C" So I shouldn't use this if it violates IETF specs? :)
  37. # [00:26] <Lachy> AryehGregor, unfortunately, since we don't run an open bug tracker, external bug reporters don't automatically get notified of further discussions
  38. # [00:26] * AryehGregor enters a data: URL in the "What URL triggers this bug, if any?" field
  39. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Lachy, why don't you run an open bug tracker? It's very annoying.
  40. # [00:26] <Lachy> I know. The issue has been discussed internally many times
  41. # [00:27] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  42. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> I figured, but I was wondering what the reasons are for the status quo. Since you aren't saying, and neither did the last Opera dev I talked to about this (who was possibly also you), I guess it's secret.
  43. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  44. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> I guess I'll work for Wikimedia instead. :P
  45. # [00:27] <Lachy> unfortunately, AIUI, we have bugs related to client work and other secret stuff that can't be revealed publicly, and there's no easy way to identify bugs that are safe for public viewing from those that aren't
  46. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> Well, Apple manages. I assume they have secret internal bug trackers, but they have a public Bugzilla too.
  47. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> For WebKit, I mean.
  48. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> I'm sure you've heard all this before, though.
  49. # [00:28] <Lachy> yeah, I know. But we only have one bug tracker used for both internal and external reports
  50. # [00:29] <Lachy> it's been suggested that bugs filed by external reporters are made public, but then the issue here is that someone internally could comment and inadvertenly mention something that's not public knowledge
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  53. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> Lachy, filed as DSK-276870.
  54. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Oh, crud, it looks like I accidentally quoted Manu on-list when he replied to me off-list.
  55. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> I hate it when I do that.
  56. # [00:39] * AryehGregor blames Gmail.
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  58. # [00:40] * AryehGregor feels really guilty.
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  60. # [00:48] <Lachy> AryehGregor, if you replied to an off-list mail, why would gmail add pubilc-html to the CC list?
  61. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> Lachy, because I reply to all on the first post I'm replying to, then copy-paste other things to reply to from lower posts. This is the only way I can see to respond to multiple people in the same post.
  62. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> I prefer not to make five posts in a row responding to five separate people.
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  65. # [00:50] * Lachy wonders which meaning of the phrase 'table the discussion' Maciej was using when he wrote "let's table this process discussion for now"
  66. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> Presumably "set aside", since we were in the middle of discussing it already, so the other definition wouldn't make sense, would it?
  67. # [00:51] <Lachy> yeah, that was my assumption
  68. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> Words shouldn't be able to mean two opposite things. >:(
  69. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> "ravel" is another culprit, but it's less common.
  70. # [00:51] <Lachy> but I really hate that phrase since it has 2 contradictory meanings, and I never remember which one is the typical American meaning, and which is the typical British (or, rest of the world) meaning
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  72. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> It's usually clear from context, though.
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  77. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Grah, it's surprising how much of a difference a little syntax makes. I don't like passing literal arrays to functions in PHP, especially nested ones. But passing objects in javascript is no problem at all.
  78. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it's remarkable.
  79. # [01:05] <AryehGregor> The syntax for arrays in PHP is ugly, and it makes them so much less usable.
  80. # [01:05] <othermaciej> Lachy: I meant it in the colloquial sense of "set aside", not the formal parliamentary sense of "let's put it before the group as the topic of discussion"
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  82. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: It's especially annoying because the ugliness of the syntax is the only thing really stopping me from finally making my sql-query constructor handle table joins.
  83. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> Heh, so you made one too?
  84. # [01:08] <AryehGregor> MediaWiki has a pretty nice one.
  85. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> Of course, how can you *possibly* spend any significant amount of time hand-constructing queries?
  86. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> It's horrible.
  87. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> I've been thinking of switching to a chaining-based api just so I can implement joins without gobs of horrible nesting.
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  89. # [01:13] <Lachy> in microdata, can someone clarify for me how I'm supposed to use the "fn" and "n" properties in the vcard vocabulary?
  90. # [01:14] <Lachy> I don't get why both "fn" and "n" exist, or why "fn" must be present if "n" is present
  91. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> I think it's legacy constraints from the original vcard format.
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  94. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> The microformats wiki page should explain their use pretty well.
  95. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> It was sensical enough for me to use it on my pages, at least.
  96. # [01:19] <Lachy> But if I use <span itemprop="fn n">, then "n" actually needs to be an item, so that would become <span itemscope itemprop="fn n">, but "fn" is supposed to be a string, not an item, so then I would have to split them into two separate elements.
  97. # [01:19] <Lachy> or otherwise rely on the implied "n" optimisation
  98. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Hrm. Yeah, I think you can't use them together in Microdata, and have to either put both of them in or use the implied "n" optimizations.
  99. # [01:22] <Hixie> i'm baffled by the number of people who don't want the spec to encourage user agents to try to make things better for AT users in the face of authoring mistakes
  100. # [01:22] <Hixie> why do people want to pubish users for authoring mistakes?
  101. # [01:23] <Hixie> it's like the whole draconican parsing thing all over again
  102. # [01:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think people are either misreading the spec, or buying into a subtle argument about giving authors incorrect expectations
  103. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I think they're mostly asking to rephrase to be vaguer at this point, aren't they?
  104. # [01:24] <Lachy> I don't think people are opposed to ATs providing a better user experience. They seem to be opposed to the spec setting seemingly unrealistic requirements and somehow giving authors unrealistic expectaions and choosing not to give alternative text
  105. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> +1 to Lachy.
  106. # [01:26] <Lachy> and since the purpose of the statement in the spec is to give implementations permission to use alternative techniques, it seems reasonable to say so without indicating what those techniques may be, especially when it could be misconstrued as referring to futuristic technologies
  107. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> That is, I certainly don't want to punish users because authors were bad. It totally makes sense that image-reading heuristics, when they exist and are practical, should be used in the absence of @alt.
  108. # [01:27] <Hixie> OCR is not a futuristic technology
  109. # [01:27] <othermaciej> I think it would probably fine to say that if alt is missing, UAs can present any other information they are able to get in lieu of a text alternative
  110. # [01:27] <Lachy> I don't think it's clear to everyone that "image analysis heuristics" refers to things like OCR.
  111. # [01:27] <othermaciej> and if specific examples are listed at all, they should be clearly realistic examples like using the filename or performing OCR
  112. # [01:28] <Lachy> people seem to be thinking it refers to some kind of futuristic AI, that can look at a picture and determine what it is and what it means in context
  113. # [01:28] <Hixie> there is shipping technology today that does painting recognition, OCR, landmark recognition, etc, on arbitrary images
  114. # [01:28] <Hixie> which would really help users who can't see images
  115. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> "User agents may also apply image analysis heuristics…" does seem to imply that such heuristics exist, when outside of OCR they don't reliably.
  116. # [01:29] <Lachy> yes, but those things, like Google Goggles, require large collections of sample images with which to compare the subject image with
  117. # [01:29] <othermaciej> there are in fact heuristics that can recognize all kinds of images other than images of text
  118. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Outside of images of text, though, you run into the intent problem. A description of the image may not be valid alt text.
  119. # [01:29] <Hixie> sure
  120. # [01:29] <othermaciej> mostly either research projects, or somewhat experimental, and often requiring a huge corpus
  121. # [01:29] <Hixie> but it's better than nothing!
  122. # [01:30] <othermaciej> it's not even that clear to me how I'd use the shipping Google Goggles to build an accessibility feature for a UA - uploading every image that lacks alt text seems like a bad idea for both bandwidth and privacy reasons
  123. # [01:31] <Lachy> Hixie, I just think you should try to find a way that makes the intent of the statement clear, without making people think the spec is setting unrealistic expectations
  124. # [01:31] <othermaciej> that being said, it seems like a much more general statement would both be less objectionable, and more broadly applicable
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  126. # [01:31] <Hixie> well i'd be happy to make the text even vaguer so long as we still explicitly allow such behaviour
  127. # [01:32] <Hixie> (no bug was ever filed for this as far as i know, btw)
  128. # [01:33] <Lachy> personally, I thought image analysis heuristics was a rather general statement already, and I don't agree with most of the rationale that was given in the change proposal
  129. # [01:33] <Hixie> yeah i'm not exactly sure how to make it vaguer
  130. # [01:33] <Lachy> maybe use less jargon
  131. # [01:36] <Lachy> Change it to "User agents may also utilise any other available techniques or technologies to help the user make sense of the image when the user is unable to make direct use of the image, ..."
  132. # [01:37] <Hixie> well it's not _any_ other
  133. # [01:37] <Hixie> e.g. iirc we explicitly discourage use of the filename
  134. # [01:37] <Hixie> since that has been shown to hurt more than help
  135. # [01:38] <Lachy> that's an implementation decision though. There's no reason to have the spec explicitly disallow it
  136. # [01:39] <othermaciej> I think it might also help to say "get information about the image" instead of "make sense of the image"
  137. # [01:39] <othermaciej> since the latter seems to be what makes people think the technology described is science-fictional
  138. # [01:39] <Lachy> also, the file name is not always useless. It is when it's a bunch of random letters or numbers, but if the AT recognises the file name as being readable words (e.g. by checking a dictionary), then why not use the file name as a last resort?
  139. # [01:40] <othermaciej> yeah, many filenames are bad, but not all - the best thing would be for AT to use heuristics to determine if the file name is human-understandable
  140. # [01:40] <Hixie> i could live with that
  141. # [01:42] <Lachy> Here the suggested text again with some changes: "User agents may also utilise any other available techniques or technologies to help the user obtain information about the image when the user is unable to make direct use of the image, ..."
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  143. # [01:43] <Hixie> sounds wishy washy
  144. # [01:43] <Lachy> yep
  145. # [01:43] <Hixie> we should just come out and say what we mean
  146. # [01:43] <othermaciej> if you can find text that people find satisfactory then I'd be happy to try to put this one through as an amicable resolution
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  149. # [01:47] <Hixie> the amount of time i spend each day just dealing with new e-mail is getting ridiculous
  150. # [01:49] <othermaciej> Hixie: Sam and I are both trying hard to curtail threads that don't seem to be going anywhere, and to kick process debates off the list
  151. # [01:50] <othermaciej> (as of now, anyway)
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  153. # [01:50] <Lachy> I was quite pleased when I saw both you and sam put a stop to process threads today :-)
  154. # [01:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: sadly public-html ain't hte half of it these days
  155. # [01:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: well, that's the only part I can really help with :-)
  156. # [01:52] <Lachy> yeah, whatwg has been difficult to keep up with too sometimes
  157. # [01:52] <Lachy> I'm still behind on that by about 1500 messages
  158. # [01:57] <Hixie> my problem is it's lots of little amounts of e-mail on lots of lists
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  160. # [01:58] <Lachy> you have to learn to ignore more lists.
  161. # [01:58] <Lachy> Like how I ignore pretty much most internal mailing lists within opera, and only skim those that I do read
  162. # [01:59] <Lachy> I figure if it's important information, I'll hear about it some other way
  163. # [02:00] <othermaciej> I have a pretty small set of lists I read constantly, a somewhat larger set of daily reading, a few I read about weekly, and then a lot that I only read occasionally when I have spare time
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  165. # [02:02] <Hixie> Lachy: none of this is internal google mail, which is a whole other mailbox with even more mail...
  166. # [02:03] <Hixie> TabAtkins: re the thread with the guy who wants to do concatenation with microdata
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  168. # [02:03] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's a bad idea for us to make <div itemscope itemtype="http://example.com/"><span itemprop="a/b"/></div> mean the same as <div itemscope itemtype="http://example.com/a/"><span itemprop="b"/></div>
  169. # [02:04] <Hixie> which is why microdata goes to such lengths to make sure that can't happen
  170. # [02:04] <Hixie> he should just use owl:equivalentProperty if he's using RDF, the same way the work vocabulary does
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  172. # [02:12] <Lachy> does such concatenation work in RDFa? e.g. is <span xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/terms/" property="dc:title"> the same as <span xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/" property="dc:terms/title">?
  173. # [02:18] <Philip`> Lachy: That's just CURIEs, not anything specific to RDFa
  174. # [02:19] <Philip`> RDFa just gets full URIs from its CURIE processor, it doesn't care how they're split up
  175. # [02:19] <Philip`> (in theory)
  176. # [02:19] <Lachy> so, then both of those would be semantically identical for RDF?
  177. # [02:20] <Hixie> yes
  178. # [02:20] <Hixie> that's one of the biggest problems with RDFa, imho
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  181. # [02:29] <Hixie> 5:30pm and I'm done with mail.
  182. # [02:29] <Hixie> sheesh.
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  190. # [03:17] <Hixie> i think i might settle on srcdoc=""
  191. # [03:17] <Hixie> names are hard.
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  208. # [04:50] <paul_irish> what's the name of this feature? http://dev.w3.org/html5/webdatabase/
  209. # [04:50] <paul_irish> like if you were saying X browser had _____ support.
  210. # [04:50] <paul_irish> "web database" ... "opendatabase" .. "sqlstorage" ?
  211. # [04:52] <Hixie> Web SQL Database
  212. # [04:53] <paul_irish> had a feeling you'd give me the h1 of the page.... :) thx hix
  213. # [04:53] <paul_irish> ie
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  220. # [05:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: i assume you want <iframe srcdoc=""> to be async?
  221. # [05:14] <Hixie> i have some notes from the chrome team that say they want it to be sync
  222. # [05:14] <Hixie> i wonder if they still believe that
  223. # [05:19] * othermaciej suspects the Chrome team sometimes overstates the case on what things need to be async
  224. # [05:19] <othermaciej> but I won't have much basis to question until we have process separation working directly in the WebKit tree
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  234. # [06:06] <Hixie> <iframe src="a" srcdoc="b">
  235. # [06:06] <Hixie> support the srcdoc attribute is removed
  236. # [06:06] <Hixie> should the UA navigate to "a"?
  237. # [06:06] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@239.140.LCA2010.fx.net.nz) ("Leaving.")
  238. # [06:09] <Hixie> i'll go with "no"
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  241. # [06:15] <Hixie> i wonder what URL to use for these docs
  242. # [06:15] <Hixie> about:blank maybe
  243. # [06:15] <Hixie> or about:srcdoc
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  250. # [06:51] <Hixie> ok srcdoc="" first draft is in
  251. # [06:51] <Hixie> let the flames begin
  252. # [06:52] <Hixie> or continue, i guess, since apparently the complaints start as soon as i mention an idea
  253. # [06:52] <Hixie> actually to be fair it's only a very few people who complain
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  255. # [06:57] <cardona507> url?
  256. # [06:57] <Hixie> http://whatwg.org/html5 ? :-)
  257. # [06:57] <cardona507> I just searched current work
  258. # [06:59] <cardona507> hmmm - I still don't see it
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  260. # [07:03] <Hixie> odd
  261. # [07:03] <Hixie> should be in the iframe section
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  263. # [07:06] <cardona507> ok - I see srcdoc now
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  265. # [07:19] * Hixie tries to work out exactly what it means for history.back() to be async
  266. # [07:20] <Hixie> i wonder where in the algorithm darin wants it to go async
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  271. # [07:47] <Hixie> sweet kittens, this box has IE8 beta on it
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  281. # [08:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't have enough data right now to say if I want doc='' to be sync or async
  282. # [08:36] <hsivonen> currently, the HTML5 parser in Gecko has no way of parsing a full document from an UTF-16 string
  283. # [08:37] <hsivonen> it can only parse a full doc (in an async way) from a byte stream or a fragment (in a sync way) from an UTF-16 string
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  285. # [08:38] <Dashiva> Does sync load include waiting for external stylesheets/scripts blocking?
  286. # [08:39] <hsivonen> Dashiva: well, if doc='' can load stylesheets, scripts or XBL, making it sync would be bad
  287. # [08:40] <hsivonen> I haven't yet examined the dependencies of doc='', hence not enough data
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  301. # [09:33] <erlehmann> hsivonen, i think there may be something wrong with the content model in validator.nu. the figure part looks weird to me http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net%2Fhtml5-cc-plugin-fur-wordpress-version-0-6
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  304. # [09:38] <hsivonen> erlehmann: the figure stuff is waiting for the HTML WG Decision Process to run its course
  305. # [09:39] <erlehmann> hsivonen, no its more like: the description in the validator doesn't match the checked content model.
  306. # [09:39] <erlehmann> at least that is what i assume
  307. # [09:39] <hsivonen> erlehmann: the description comes from the spec
  308. # [09:40] <hsivonen> erlehmann: what's actually checked comes from the schema
  309. # [09:40] <hsivonen> erlehmann: and they are out of sync while waiting for the Decision Process
  310. # [09:40] <erlehmann> i see. excuse me for bothering you.
  311. # [09:41] <erlehmann> and thanks for the explanation.
  312. # [09:41] <hsivonen> the situation sucks and causes bad UI
  313. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> we are at the moment having the first face-to-face meeting of the HTML5 Japanese Interest Group
  314. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> almost 100 people here
  315. # [09:43] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, live stream it using <video> ;)
  316. # [09:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: nice
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  318. # [09:44] * Parts: Steven_ (n=steven_p@pembo.xs4all.nl)
  319. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> we have presenters here from Opera, Mozilla, Microsoft IE team, Google Chrome
  320. # [09:48] <JonathanNeal> All major layout rendering engines.
  321. # [09:48] <JonathanNeal> How are the trident folks?
  322. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> he's speaking about 1 hour or so from now
  323. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> but likely will mostly be speaking about IE8
  324. # [09:49] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: who from Opera?
  325. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: Daniel Davis
  326. # [09:49] <JonathanNeal> What's this I hear about IE6 support getting extended to 2014, man.
  327. # [09:50] <JonathanNeal> Luckily I heard Cisco is finally gonna upgrade.
  328. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: Tatsuki is here in the audience as well
  329. # [09:50] <JonathanNeal> IE8 is all right, just has some display issues which I hope get patched, but ah hell probably won't.
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  331. # [09:51] <JonathanNeal> It sucks when you need to hit a browser like you do a broken stereo, .style.opacity = 0; .style.opacity = 1; just to get the thing to show a change.
  332. # [09:51] * Joins: pablof (n=palbo@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  333. # [09:51] <JonathanNeal> I wish they could get a release cycle going like Chrome, Firefox, and Opera have been able to.
  334. # [09:52] <Dashiva> They're getting closer
  335. # [09:52] <Dashiva> The 7-8 cycle was much shorter than 6-7 :)
  336. # [09:52] <JonathanNeal> Good.
  337. # [09:52] <JonathanNeal> Yes, it was.
  338. # [09:53] <hsivonen> I guess the problem is the principle of supporting the browser they shipped bundled with a given Windows release for the support life time of that Windows release
  339. # [09:53] <JonathanNeal> But 6 to 7 was like the longest one of them all
  340. # [09:54] <Dashiva> Couldn't they just do some version number magic?
  341. # [09:54] <JonathanNeal> 97, 99, 2000, 01, 06.
  342. # [09:54] <hsivonen> I imagine supporting Iceweasel for the lifetime of a Debian system release is challege
  343. # [09:54] <Dashiva> Say that 9 is actually 8.1
  344. # [09:54] <Dashiva> And make 8.1 a mandatory upgrade from 8.0
  345. # [09:54] <JonathanNeal> Dashiva, I wish they would do stuff like that.
  346. # [09:55] <hsivonen> Dashiva: as I understand it, it's not about numbers but about not changing behavior unless a security or legal (see Eolas) problem can't be fixed without a behavior change
  347. # [09:55] <JonathanNeal> Then they could add some performance perks and bring some actual competition to the other browsers --- plus I wouldn't mind ie supporting some css3
  348. # [09:56] <Dashiva> Hum
  349. # [09:56] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: and if a perk breaks the Boeing intranet?
  350. # [09:56] <Dashiva> In that case they'd need to cut down the OS release cycle to something like what Apple does I guess
  351. # [09:57] <hsivonen> to their credit, Microsoft (and Linux distros) communicate about OS release life cycles more clearly than Apple
  352. # [09:57] <JonathanNeal> hsivonen, no point if they'll lose the contract in 10 years to Firefox or Chrome, because they weren't making these advances.
  353. # [09:57] <hsivonen> I don't recall Apple ever communicating anything about OS life cycle
  354. # [09:57] <JonathanNeal> And 10 years is a grossly larger number than I imagine it could be.
  355. # [09:57] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  356. # [09:58] <hsivonen> Safari 4 security patches shipped for OS X 10.4
  357. # [09:58] <Hixie> hsivonen: they did once communicate their OS release cycle at a WWDC talk ahead of Snow Leopard
  358. # [09:58] <Hixie> thought that may have been accidentally
  359. # [09:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh. so when are they stopping security patch support for 10.4?
  360. # [09:58] <Hixie> as it was more in passing, in a talk about something else
  361. # [09:58] <hsivonen> what about 10.5?
  362. # [09:58] <Hixie> and had minimal details
  363. # [09:59] <Hixie> but it was something!
  364. # [09:59] <Dashiva> So I'm making this little online game, and I need a TCP port to use. But if I use one of the ports I'm supposed to use, some ISPs flag it as a torrent and start packet shaping
  365. # [09:59] <hsivonen> and 10.3 presumably no longer gets updates, but has Apple ever said so?
  366. # [10:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: so if I want to make security decisions about my dad's Luxo iMac running 10.4, which Apple talks do I need to listen through for tea leaves?
  367. # [10:00] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Client Quit)
  368. # [10:01] <Philip`> Dashiva: What do you mean by "supposed to"?
  369. # [10:01] <JonathanNeal> I think IE8 is moving in the right direction for the browser.
  370. # [10:01] <Dashiva> I always thought apple's life cycle was "until the next version is out, then you're on your own"
  371. # [10:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: you are preaching to the choir
  372. # [10:01] <Dashiva> Philip`: One of the 49152+ ones or what it is
  373. # [10:02] <JonathanNeal> Just hopefully not too little too late, I don't mind having multiple browsers, especially if they get easier to write cross compatibly for.
  374. # [10:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: about improving accessibility: if Google contributed open source OCR to Orca and NVDA today, and Apple cloned it for Voice Over tomorrow, people would freak out over authors not writing alt text for JAWS users
  375. # [10:02] <Dashiva> And if JAWS added it, they would freak out over not writing alt text for JAWS 4 users
  376. # [10:03] <Philip`> Dashiva: Nobody cares about registration or anything, just pick an arbitrary number that nobody significant is using and it'll be fine :-)
  377. # [10:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: they've already freaked out, see public-html
  378. # [10:04] <Dashiva> Philip`: That's what I'll end up doing, yeah. So much for IANA.
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  381. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> Makoto Kato from Mozilla Japan is presenting now
  382. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> his title is Technical Advisor
  383. # [10:13] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
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  385. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> he said he doesn't know what that title is supposed to mean
  386. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> Kato-san has a powerful voice.. had to turn down the volume a bit
  387. # [10:15] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Client Quit)
  388. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> talking about File API, CSS Gradients, WOFF, WebGL
  389. # [10:17] * Quits: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  390. # [10:18] * Hixie peers strangely at the browsers he is testing
  391. # [10:18] <Hixie> some of them don't seem to be letting history.back() affect the history of iframes...
  392. # [10:18] <Hixie> browsers are weird
  393. # [10:18] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  394. # [10:19] <Hixie> man i wish someone had specced this crap in the 90s
  395. # [10:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: How about saying something more interesting, that we don't already know? :P
  396. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> it's becoming more and more clear that we just need to scrap it all and start from scratch
  397. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> a clean slate
  398. # [10:20] <gsnedders> Web 2.0!
  399. # [10:20] <gsnedders> Oh, wait.
  400. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> we also need to scrap HTTP, and TCP
  401. # [10:21] <workmad3> we'll get web 3.0 out the door and then move to a versionless web upgrade model? ;)
  402. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> the Web should have been based on Display PostScript
  403. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> or maybe TeX
  404. # [10:23] <Hixie> is TCP that bad?
  405. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> SCTP is better
  406. # [10:23] <Hixie> I thought TCP was actually pretty reasonable, as a protocol
  407. # [10:23] <workmad3> MikeSmith: if it had been, I doubt it would have taken off in the same way
  408. # [10:23] <Hixie> a bit dated at this point, but the spec i thought was ok
  409. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> TCP is seriously pretty good but has significant limitations in high packet-loss networks
  410. # [10:23] <workmad3> MikeSmith: and clean slate is great from an academic and developer perspective, but the biggest driver (business) would resist it like the plague, for fairly good reasons
  411. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> like mobile-phone networks
  412. # [10:24] <workmad3> unless you keep it backwards compatible that is... and then you keep the mess around longer :)
  413. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> not that I know anything about TCP
  414. # [10:26] <workmad3> MikeSmith: you're pretty much spot on there :)
  415. # [10:27] <workmad3> TCP fails when a network that needs speed more than reliability, and performs atrociously over a low reliability network
  416. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> Hey, I got something right
  417. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> I think it's the first time this week
  418. # [10:27] * MikeSmith pats himself on the back
  419. # [10:28] * Philip` saw some people saying how TCP fails sometimes in data center networks because it has hundreds-of-milliseconds timeouts on packet loss even if the latency is far less than that
  420. # [10:28] <workmad3> but then, that's why networks that need speed implement their own reliability mechanisms (using a different model than TCP) on top of raw UDP packets :)
  421. # [10:29] <workmad3> e.g. game servers
  422. # [10:29] <Philip`> Games sometimes use UDP simply to get around NATs
  423. # [10:30] <workmad3> that said, TCP works, it works pretty well for what it does and is, and I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon
  424. # [10:30] * workmad3 waits to be proven wrong
  425. # [10:32] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, in mobile phone networks with high packet loss, i often get packet duplicates, weird. is it that what you mean ?
  426. # [10:32] <workmad3> erlehmann: that's one of the problems
  427. # [10:32] <workmad3> that'll happen when your ACK packet gets lost or takes too long to get to the server :)
  428. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> I think most mobile phone networks basically don't use TCP over the air
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  430. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> they use WTCP or something
  431. # [10:33] <erlehmann> yeah, they use another transport layer and fake packet loss or something ?
  432. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> something like that
  433. # [10:33] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i think there's a huge difference between specs needing improvement, and specs needing to be written from scratch because the specs themselves are inadequate (as in the case of HTML, DOM, etc).
  434. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie: true, and there's big difference between a technology that was fundamentally sound of the use cases it was intended for and specced out for at time, and one for which the spec was inadequate/ambiguous to the point where implementers ended up implementing it in non-interoperable ways
  435. # [10:40] <Hixie> does this crash safari trunk? http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/history/sync-vs-async/007.html
  436. # [10:40] <Hixie> (it crashes safari 4 on windows)
  437. # [10:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah
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  441. # [10:44] <Hixie> othermaciej: does this crash safari trunk? http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/history/sync-vs-async/007.html (it crashes safari 4 windows)
  442. # [10:44] <Hixie> (i can't get webkit to run on this windows machine)
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  445. # [10:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: did not crash in a recent Mac debug build
  446. # [10:45] <othermaciej> I do not have Windows readily available
  447. # [10:46] <Hixie> k
  448. # [10:46] <othermaciej> let me check if it crashes Safari 4.0.4 on Mac
  449. # [10:46] <othermaciej> answer: yes
  450. # [10:47] <othermaciej> so this is probably a fixed bug, not a platform-specific bug
  451. # [10:48] <Hixie> yeah i didn't think it was platform specific
  452. # [10:48] <Hixie> thanks
  453. # [10:48] <othermaciej> we have fixed a lot of crashers lately
  454. # [10:48] <othermaciej> including super weird ones from fuzz testing
  455. # [10:49] <othermaciej> yay for fixed bugs
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  457. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> Masao Goto from IE team speaking here now
  458. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> hash tag on twitter is #jaig5
  459. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> his current slide quotes Santayana: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
  460. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> Mozilla's Kato-san's slides from today:
  461. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> http://www.slideshare.net/djraven/web-technology-features-with-firefox-36-gecko-192-and-later
  462. # [11:24] * Joins: tametick (n=chatzill@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  463. # [11:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: Calling location.replace("#foo") after the load event has fired, should it add a page to the history?
  464. # [11:28] <gsnedders> (That is Op's current behaviour)
  465. # [11:28] <gsnedders> i.e., treats it the same as location.hash
  466. # [11:28] <virtuelv> and chrome's behavior is to do the same as Opera
  467. # [11:28] <othermaciej> I though location.replace() was not supposed to ever add to the history
  468. # [11:28] <virtuelv> _except_ the first time location.replace is called
  469. # [11:29] <Hixie> gsnedders: no idea, but that's a good thing to add to the thread i just sent an e-mail on
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  471. # [11:29] <Hixie> gsnedders: so i can make sure to spec it
  472. # [11:29] <virtuelv> Hixie: then spec what Firefox and IE does
  473. # [11:30] <virtuelv> which is to never ever add to the history
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  477. # [11:34] <Hixie> virtuelv: send mail
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  479. # [11:36] <Hixie> ok time to sleep
  480. # [11:36] <Hixie> nn
  481. # [11:45] <Lachy> Hixie, othermaciej, I had another go at rewriting the image analsis heuristics text
  482. # [11:45] <Lachy> ---
  483. # [11:45] <Lachy> When the user is unable to make direct use of the image, e.g. due to a visual disability or because they are using a text terminal with no graphics capabilities, user agents may also provide the user with the ability to obtain any other information about the image that may assist the user in understanding the content or purpose of the image, utilising any available repair technique.
  484. # [11:45] <Lachy> Such techniques may be based on information from any relevant source including, but not limited to, the following suggestions:
  485. # [11:45] <Lachy> * Obtaining the file name from the URL reference or HTTP headers supplied with the resource, such as the Content-Location or Content-Disposition header fields.
  486. # [11:45] <Lachy> * Extracting human readable metadata embedded within the resource. e.g. EXIF or RDF embedded within the resource.
  487. # [11:45] <Lachy> * Referring to alternative text associated with another instance of the same resource on the page,
  488. # [11:45] <Lachy> * Applying OCR techniques to recognise and extract textual content that is graphically represented on the image.
  489. # [11:45] <Lachy> For more information, refer to the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines techniques for repairing missing content ([UAAG10-TECHS], section 2.7).
  490. # [11:45] <Lachy> ---
  491. # [11:46] <othermaciej> Lachy: post it to the list I guess and see if people like it
  492. # [11:46] <Lachy> ok. What do you think of it?
  493. # [11:48] <othermaciej> Lachy: should XMP metadata be mentioned?
  494. # [11:48] <othermaciej> Larry cited it
  495. # [11:48] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if it actually consists of RDF or not
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  497. # [11:48] <othermaciej> Lachy: looks good to me in general though
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  499. # [11:51] <Lachy> I don't know either. But UAAG mentioned RDF embedded in the resource, so I figured that and EXIF would be enough for examples
  500. # [11:56] <jgraham> The file name is bad unless human readable.
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  502. # [11:57] <jgraham> >So it should either say "the human readable part of the file name" or (perhaps better) we shouldn't bother enumerating all these techniques
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  507. # [12:12] <othermaciej> yeah, I am not sure enumerating some techniques is an improvement over not listing any
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  509. # [12:18] <Lachy> I don't really care either way.
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  515. # [12:23] <hsivonen> to me, talking about human-readable data in RDF in images is wishful
  516. # [12:23] <hsivonen> as is talking about human-readable data in EXIF
  517. # [12:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: Some EXIF has human readable data
  518. # [12:24] <jgraham> But it is typically not a replacement for an image in context
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  520. # [12:25] <zcorpan__> alt -- as found on the web -- is typically not a replacement for an image in context
  521. # [12:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: e.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/carpeicthus/4291505464/meta/
  522. # [12:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't have numbers, but I'd expect human-readable data that isn't either the photographer name or keywords derived from coordinates using geonames to be exceedingly rare
  523. # [12:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: does any EXIF spec formalize the <a href> stuff seen there?
  524. # [12:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think that typical photo editing software allows you to add a description to the exif
  525. # [12:26] <zcorpan__> hmm, <input type=image> coordinates either changed in implementations since last i tested or my testing was bogus last time
  526. # [12:27] <hsivonen> also, that data seems something that anyone who'd write it in the first place would want to present as part of the HTML page to all readers
  527. # [12:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: I doubt it; that is for flickr's benefit
  528. # [12:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: It is, in this case
  529. # [12:27] <hsivonen> as it is presented on http://www.flickr.com/photos/carpeicthus/4291505464 for all users
  530. # [12:27] <jgraham> But if the photo were reused in another context it might not be
  531. # [12:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: so does anyone do it for purposes other than making Flickr extract it and show it as part of the photo page as HTML to all users?
  532. # [12:28] <jgraham> Of course it wouldn't tell you much about the photo apart from "it has a female model", "it was taken in nashville" and :it has complex lighting"
  533. # [12:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: I know that the sole reason I bother with scripts that generate human-readable strings into EXIF is that Flickr extracts those on the photo page
  534. # [12:28] <jgraham> hsivonen: No idea
  535. # [12:29] <jgraham> I guess people only do things when they get an immediate benefit from it so perhaps not
  536. # [12:30] <jgraham> Maybe if the photo tags were embedded in the EXIF that would be more helpful than the description
  537. # [12:31] <jgraham> Since people might add tags for their personal use (helping them manage their photo collection) and the information would typically also be helpful in understanding the image
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  539. # [12:31] <hsivonen> whoa. the Chromium team goes on record on what they consider to be the Web Platform: http://dev.chromium.org/developers/web-platform-status
  540. # [12:32] * hsivonen expects a blog post from shepazu
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  543. # [12:33] <zcorpan__> could not find the text "svg"
  544. # [12:34] <jgraham> Why is it so hard to find a Free HTTP debugging proxy?
  545. # [12:35] <jgraham> This feels like the type of software that attracts open source implementations
  546. # [12:36] <hsivonen> what features would an "HTTP debugging proxy" have?
  547. # [12:37] <jgraham> The ability to rewrite content, cache certian files on the proxy irrespective of HTTP headers, the ability to return a local file as if it were the remote resource
  548. # [12:37] <jgraham> Obviously the ability to log and inspect what is going on
  549. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Lachy: it seems like a bad idea to introduce an RDF dependency to the browser platform just in case once in a blue moon an image has human-readable text in RDF
  550. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Lachy: frankly, talking about RDF there looks like wishful metadata handwaving
  551. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Lachy: see also the IRC log about EXIF
  552. # [12:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: XMP is RDF but not all RDF is XMP
  553. # [12:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I *think* XMP places restrictions on what kind of RDF you can have, but I don't know what those restrictions are
  554. # [12:42] <Lachy> hsivonen, they were only suggestions, not requirements
  555. # [12:48] <Lachy> jgraham, hsivonen, I don't think anyone expects any embedded human readable metadata to provide ideal replacement text in context, but that's not the point of it. The point is to give more information about the user that may help the user infer some meaning based on the context.
  556. # [12:48] <Lachy> s/about the user/about the image/
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  565. # [13:12] <hsivonen> I feel like tosting to the ISSUE-66 thread that I think JF's reasoning has two bugs, but that would be unproductive, because I agree with his conclusion
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  573. # [13:26] <Lachy> it's nice that Vimeo has now adopted <video>
  574. # [13:26] <Lachy> Not so nice that they only offer h.264, but I suppose that was to be expected
  575. # [13:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: nice even though it puts Opera at a disadvantage relative to Chrome?
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  577. # [13:38] <Lachy> I meant nice in the sense that they're starting to remove their dependence on flash.
  578. # [13:39] <Lachy> but AIUI, it doesn't put Opera on Linux at a disadvantage, since we use gstreamer for that which supports h.264
  579. # [13:39] <gsnedders> We use GStreamer on all platforms, it's just we expect it to already be installed on Linux anyway and just use the system copy (with plugins, if installed)
  580. # [13:40] <Lachy> I didn't know gstreamer was ported to other platforms
  581. # [13:40] <Lachy> I've never installed it on any of my machines
  582. # [13:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: having not work on Linux with pristine distro plus Opera and having it not work on Windows or Mac doesn't seem so great
  583. # [13:40] <gsnedders> Never had anything that depended upon it installed?
  584. # [13:41] <Lachy> I don't think so, unless it's installed as part of VLC or MPlayer
  585. # [13:42] <Lachy> anyway, I must get to the airport very soon. I'm off to Prague for the weekend.
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  589. # [13:45] <hsivonen> to me, it seems that the English translation of the requests to support H.264 via GStreamer is: "We want to trade badly-performing closed-source software to patent-encumbered better performing software"
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  675. # [17:28] <AryehGregor> "What’s New Under the Hood for Developers: Support for the latest HTML5 specification, including the File API for local file handling"https://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/index.php/2010/01/21/firefox-3-6-is-now-available-for-download/
  676. # [17:28] <AryehGregor> That makes it sound like they support the whole thing.
  677. # [17:29] <Dashiva> That's what marketing is for
  678. # [17:29] <TabAtkins> Woo, -moz-linear-gradient()!
  679. # [17:31] <Philip`> HTML5, including the File API?
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  681. # [17:37] <jgraham> Philip`: Sshhh or someone in the htmlwg will realise that when non-spec-junkies say "HTML5" they don't pay much attention to which document the technology is in
  682. # [17:39] * gsnedders should stop being such a spec junkie and stop smoking all that paper and ink
  683. # [17:39] <TabAtkins> I take it in my veins.
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  688. # [17:51] <jgraham> I didn't choose life. I chose something else. I chose specs.
  689. # [17:52] <gsnedders> I thought you said a few weeks ago you'd never read nor seen that
  690. # [17:52] <jgraham> Actually I saw it the other day
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  700. # [18:50] <JonathanNeal> Hello Hello
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  713. # [19:17] * AryehGregor finds it fascinating that two different anonymous users changed "[[Ian Hickson]], editor of the HTML5 specification, expects the specification to reach . . . W3C Recommendation in the year 2022 or later" to read "2012" instead of "2022"
  714. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> In the Wikipedia article on HTML5, I mean.
  715. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> Well, if it doesn't reach REC by 2012, it clearly won't have the chance to reach REC at all.
  716. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> Haha.
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  720. # [19:31] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Check if those same users changed other articles to set years to 2012?
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  722. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, interesting thought. I assumed it was just misunderstanding, but maybe people are randomly changing years to 2012.
  723. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> Nope, they seem to have just assumed it must be wrong.
  724. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.62.29.131
  725. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/99.51.105.249
  726. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> Both gave edit summaries that suggest that, too.
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  729. # [19:36] <Dashiva> So people have strong faith
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The end :)