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- # Session Start: Sat Jan 30 00:00:00 2010
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [00:17] <annevk> http://people.mozilla.com/~vladimir/jsvec/TypedArray-spec.html
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- # [00:32] <Dashiva> Hum
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- # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Geez, Lief's turned into sort of an ass. >_< Dude doesn't seem to know how to accept disagreement.
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- # [00:36] * Hixie searches for [^</]\bd[dt]\b\|[^<]/d[dt]\b (just putting that here in case i need to search for it again, don't want to have to work that out again)
- # [00:38] <Dashiva> Escaped pipe, hum
- # [00:41] <Hixie> emacs
- # [00:41] <Hixie> doesn't use regular regexps
- # [00:45] <Philip`> That won't work if the dd/dt is at the beginning of a line
- # [00:45] <Philip`> I guess it's okay if everything's indented, though
- # [00:46] * Philip` would probably do something more like (?<!<)(?<!</)\bd[dt]\b in Perl
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- # [00:50] <Hixie> Philip`: in emacs, [^...] matches newlines
- # [00:51] <Hixie> in perl too, if oyu have /s
- # [00:51] <Hixie> iirc
- # [00:51] <Philip`> Then you still have the problem at the start of the file :-)
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- # [00:52] <Hixie> i know what's at the start of the file :-P
- # [00:52] <Philip`> (In Perl /s only changes the meaning of ".", \n is just like any other character in any other patterns)
- # [00:52] <Hixie> well then :-P
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- # [00:53] * Philip` was assuming line-based processing so you wouldn't have \n at the beginning
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- # [01:36] <annevk> >2700
- # [01:36] <annevk> really going to bed now
- # [01:36] <annevk> also <2000 left
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- # [04:14] <Hixie> ok i checked in the details/figure changes
- # [04:16] <othermaciej> yay!
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- # [05:54] <jwalden> mm, tasty figcaptions
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- # [06:08] <karlcow> good for figcaptions but summary is a mistake imho. element/attribute name being the same. People have hard time to understand the diff betweenn cite="", <cite>
- # [06:08] <karlcow> oh well.
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- # [09:38] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
- # [09:38] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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- # [11:56] <annevk> it seems the Chrome team is set on beating our version number :-)
- # [11:56] <Dashiva> They could just pull a slackware
- # [11:57] <Philip`> Or a Windows
- # [11:57] <annevk> <figcaption> and <summary>, really?
- # [11:58] <Hixie> apparently
- # [11:58] <Hixie> i still think <legend> is better
- # [11:58] * annevk longs for <legend>
- # [11:58] <annevk> yeah
- # [11:58] <annevk> toally
- # [11:58] <Hixie> especially for <details>
- # [11:58] <Hixie> well for both really
- # [11:58] <annevk> is there any element name remotely similar to <figcaption>?
- # [11:59] <Hixie> optgroup, colgroup
- # [11:59] <Hixie> keyge
- # [11:59] <Hixie> n
- # [11:59] <annevk> well, they're the other way around
- # [12:00] <annevk> oh well
- # [12:00] <Dashiva> figurecap?
- # [12:00] <Hixie> other way around?
- # [12:00] <Hixie> keygen is the other way around
- # [12:00] <Hixie> optgroup is basically the same thing
- # [12:01] <Hixie> <option> group -> optgroup, <figure> caption -> figcaption
- # [12:01] <Hixie> but <legend> is the right answer.
- # [12:01] <Hixie> just not the popular answer.
- # [12:01] <Hixie> yay consensus.
- # [12:01] <Hixie> (assuming we even get consensus.)
- # [12:01] <Dashiva> Are you tempted to remove it from w3c HTML5 just so it can be added later when <legend> is viable? :P
- # [12:02] <Hixie> i tried to remove <details>
- # [12:02] <Hixie> there was an uproar
- # [12:02] <Hixie> never though i'd see that many complaints about doing something shelley asked for so quickly
- # [12:02] <Dashiva> Only because you did it voluntarily
- # [12:02] <Hixie> thought, even
- # [12:02] <Dashiva> You have to wait for the WG decision
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- # [12:04] <annevk> personally i'd rather drop them both too until <legend> works
- # [12:04] <Hixie> yeah me too but too many people want them now
- # [12:05] <Hixie> next time i think of adding something like this i'll make sure it really works, parser-wise, before adding it, since it's easier to keep something popular out than to remove it later.
- # [12:05] <annevk> yeah, and it's pretty costly at the price of two new elements :/
- # [12:05] <Hixie> no kidding
- # [12:06] <Hixie> feel free to raise an objection :-)
- # [12:06] <Hixie> but i think there's no chance of either <legend> or removal being a WG decision
- # [12:06] <Hixie> still, at least we can point to this as proof the WHATWG is trying to cooperate :-)
- # [12:07] <Dashiva> Just find another w3c technology that predates details and does the same thing :P
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- # [12:07] * Philip` still doesn't see why making a new element name is worse than overloading an existing name to have different meanings depending on context
- # [12:08] <Dashiva> More rules to remember
- # [12:08] <annevk> I wonder if the chairs thought of the consequences for html5-diff when they started making things complex
- # [12:08] <Hixie> Philip`: having four element names for legends instead of two makes it twice as hard to know which to use when you are in a situation where you need to use one
- # [12:08] <annevk> Maybe I should just define [HTML5] in html5-diff as the WHATWG copy :p
- # [12:08] <Hixie> heh
- # [12:08] <Hixie> works for me :-P
- # [12:08] <Hixie> the whatwg copy references it :-)
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- # [12:37] <annevk> Hixie, should I file a bug on s/srcdoc/srcDoc/ ?
- # [12:38] <Hixie> would it improve the web?
- # [12:38] <annevk> it would improve consistency
- # [12:38] <annevk> I agree it looks less nice
- # [12:38] <annevk> but it makes matters more predictable I think
- # [12:38] <annevk> due to stupid decisions earlier on
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- # [12:41] <Hixie> i dunno that it really helps much in this case
- # [12:41] * jwalden points out http://whereswalden.com/2010/01/29/humor/ for the benefit of anyone here not reading p.m.o (and who, incidentally, have by far the highest probability of understanding it of anyone who might read it :-) )
- # [12:41] <Hixie> hah
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- # [12:41] <roc> what would srcDoc improve consistency with?
- # [12:42] <roc> aren't all HTML attributes all lowercase?
- # [12:42] <Hixie> he's talking about the IDL attribute
- # [12:43] <Dashiva> Shouldn't it be src-doc in HTML to be srcDoc in IDL?
- # [12:44] <annevk> not necessarily
- # [12:44] <annevk> e.g. contentEditable
- # [12:44] <jwalden> I don't think I care, but: document.createElement("a").hreflang
- # [12:44] <jwalden> may be the odd man out
- # [12:44] <annevk> yeah, I just noticed that one
- # [12:44] <Hixie> i think looking for consistency in HTML and its APIs is a fool's errand
- # [12:44] <Hixie> i'd just go with what makes the most sense
- # [12:44] <annevk> I guess hreflang sets a precedence for both
- # [12:45] <jwalden> I see hreflang as similar because the first word of the compound is abbreviated; are there others like that which are capitalized?
- # [12:45] <Dashiva> .tBodies
- # [12:45] <jwalden> or not-abbreviated but lowercase-mashed
- # [12:46] <jwalden> whoa, that's some funky caps
- # [12:46] * jwalden never would have guessed .tBodies existed
- # [12:47] <annevk> others are e.g. tabIndex, contextMenu, accessKey, maxLength, readOnly, useMap, isMap
- # [12:47] <jwalden> bgColor counters hreflang's precedent
- # [12:47] <Dashiva> I guess it's a bit off topic since there's no a content attribute for it
- # [12:47] <jwalden> or maybe it's only lower-mash if all parts are abbrevs?
- # [12:47] <annevk> and a bunch of presentational and obsoleted attributes, noShade, noHref, bgColor, ...
- # [12:48] * jwalden continues on the fool's errand
- # [12:49] <annevk> vAlign counters that somewhat
- # [12:49] <annevk> or colSpan
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- # [13:03] <Hixie> ignore the deprecated ones when looking for a pattern to hang this lampshade on
- # [13:03] <Hixie> we can argue those won't be used by authors so aren't relevant
- # [13:05] <jwalden> enctype, I'm guessing, isn't deprecated, maybe argues for "short" compounds not being capsed
- # [13:06] <jwalden> but I'm getting tired of racking brains for obscure element names :-)
- # [13:08] <annevk> I'm fine with srcdoc, but I also successfully argued for itemId, itemType, itemValue, itemRef, itemProp, and itemScope
- # [13:09] <annevk> so I guess in the future someone can point at this line on krijnhoetmer.nl and blame me if they got confused
- # [13:09] <Dashiva> There I'd argue item is a common prefix, so the camelcase is useful
- # [13:10] <Dashiva> However, srcdoc is abbreviated enough to be equally readable with or without
- # [13:10] <Dashiva> (in my opinion)
- # [13:10] <annevk> hopefully the confused people of the future will concur
- # [13:13] <Hixie> i agree with Dashiva
- # [13:13] <jwalden> yeah
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- # [13:57] <Hixie> i'm no network person, so if anyone can find a better way to do this:
- # [13:57] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/websocket/saturate.html
- # [13:57] <Hixie> ...that would be awesome
- # [13:57] <Hixie> i'm going to bed now.
- # [13:57] <Hixie> nn
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- # [14:34] <annevk> is anyone following stuff like http://www.w3.org/TR/contacts-api/ ?
- # [14:35] <annevk> related, anyone knows if cloning technology is getting any better?
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- # [15:01] <annevk> whoa
- # [15:01] * annevk just read a bunch of messages in the <canvas> accessibility thread
- # [15:02] <annevk> >3000
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- # [15:40] * gsnedders waves
- # [15:40] <gsnedders> (from Oslo)
- # [15:41] <annevk> Oslo is cool
- # [15:41] <annevk> you should go skiing
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- # [15:42] <annevk> some skiing stuff of mine is at Lachy's place
- # [15:42] <annevk> feel free to borrow
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- # [15:42] <gsnedders> Probably too big for me, tall man.
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- # [15:43] <annevk> the glasses will be alright :)
- # [15:43] <annevk> but yeah, the outfit, dunno about that :p
- # [15:43] * gsnedders has glasses of his own in Scotland :P
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- # [15:45] * gsnedders needs to decide what to do today
- # [15:45] <Lachy> gsnedders, I thought you weren't arriving in Oslo till tomorow?
- # [15:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: Wrong.
- # [15:46] <Lachy> I would go skiing, but unfortunately I can't for at least another 4 to 6 weeks. :-(
- # [15:47] <gsnedders> First thing I need to do is get lunch, though
- # [15:50] * gsnedders thinks wondering around town might be a good idea for today, seeming everything closes soon
- # [15:51] <annevk> how are the roads?
- # [15:52] <gsnedders> Bit icy, not bad
- # [15:52] <annevk> there's a bicycle at Marcos' place
- # [15:52] <gsnedders> Better than lkpg
- # [15:52] * gsnedders hasn't ridden a bike much i years
- # [15:53] <gsnedders> I also have no idea where Marcos' place is :P
- # [15:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, what street are you in?
- # [15:54] <gsnedders> Storgate
- # [15:54] <gsnedders> *gata
- # [15:54] * gsnedders fails Norwegian
- # [15:55] <Lachy> oh, is that where your hotel is, or just where you are now?
- # [15:55] <gsnedders> Both :)
- # [15:56] <gsnedders> I'm in the Anker Hotel
- # [15:56] <Lachy> ok. They didn't put you where I thought they might, closer to Opera.
- # [15:56] <Lachy> but at least it's not too far. Just jump on bus 34 or 54 on monday morning
- # [15:56] <annevk> you should've asked for an apartment
- # [15:57] <annevk> they're 5min from Opera rather than 25
- # [15:57] * gsnedders really doesn't care
- # [16:00] <gsnedders> OK, I'm going to head into town and get food and wonder around
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- # [16:21] * TabAtkins is befuddled by smart compilers rearranging his computations for efficiency.
- # [16:22] <TabAtkins> I understand that moving the division into a non-critical path so it can be done at the computer's leisure is *theoretically* a good thing, but the fact that this actually translates into a 10% speedup is astonishing.
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- # [16:25] <Philip`> It's more befuddling because CPUs rearrange computations too
- # [16:27] <TabAtkins> I know! It's crazy.
- # [16:27] <TabAtkins> I would never have thought to swap my algorithm around to move where the division takes place.
- # [16:27] <TabAtkins> I think I'm spoiled by not ever coding in C?
- # [16:28] <Philip`> Was it moved out of a loop or something?
- # [16:28] <Dashiva> Or into a rare conditional branch?
- # [16:28] * Philip` wouldn't expect simple shuffling to affect much
- # [16:29] <annevk> oh yes, <1300
- # [16:29] <annevk> only 800-900 to go to get back to the old level
- # [16:30] <TabAtkins> I was doing an array walk, based on the value in the array. Previously the division was required to find the next index and I simply collected the value, but I swapped it so I use the division to collect values, and use the array val itself as the next index.
- # [16:30] <TabAtkins> (In more specific terms, I was factoring a number using a slightly modified Sieve of Eratosthenes. Originally I stored the smallest factor of the index, now I store the largest factor.)
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- # [16:34] <Philip`> You mean so it can now do the division and memory fetch in parallel, or something like that?
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- # [16:34] <TabAtkins> I presume that's what is happening, yes.
- # [16:35] <Philip`> Sounds plausible
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- # [17:04] <annevk> <1000
- # [17:04] <annevk> really time for breakfast/lunch/dinner or any kind of food now
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- # [17:30] <annevk> <900
- # [17:31] <Dashiva> Maybe you should make a graph, like Hixie :P
- # [17:31] * jgraham is plesed to find that gsnedders did not get stuck in Katrineholm
- # [17:31] <jgraham> sp?
- # [17:32] <jgraham> Ah no, I spelt it right
- # [17:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: The train from Lkpg was 20/25 mins late
- # [17:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: But not enough for the 45 min change
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- # [17:35] <gsnedders> Also: is it bad my first thought upon realizing I had 20 mins to wait was, "Where can I get fika?"
- # [17:37] <gsnedders> Also: food is so fucking expensive.
- # [17:37] * smaug is now known as smaug__
- # [17:37] * smaug__ is now known as smaug___
- # [17:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Could have been worse. You might have thought "help, I'm covered in bees", which, given the climate, would have implied that you were having weird hallucinations.
- # [17:38] <jgraham> Aren't you supposed to be enjoying Norway or something?
- # [17:38] <gsnedders> It's dark outside now, and everything's shut.
- # [17:38] <gsnedders> And I have no friends.
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- # [17:38] * gsnedders just had lunch
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- # [17:38] <jgraham> Sounds quite like Linkoping
- # [17:39] <gsnedders> Yeah, just lunch costs more for worse food.
- # [17:40] <jgraham> (!!)
- # [17:41] <annevk> you should go to better places then :)
- # [17:41] <gsnedders> Hey, I'm on my own in a city I've never been in before.
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- # [17:50] <annevk> oh, zcorpan submitted a patch for web-apps-tracker
- # [17:50] <TabAtkins> I'm pretty sure that "help, I'm covered in bees" is a pretty bad thought to have regardless of the climate.
- # [17:51] <gsnedders> On the bright side, it seems warmer here
- # [17:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: It is like -17 here
- # [17:52] <Philip`> TabAtkins: What if you're a bee keeper?
- # [17:52] <TabAtkins> In that case you're shouting for help. Still no good.
- # [17:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess I got out in time
- # [17:52] <Philip`> Maybe you're covering yourself in bees and running around as a publicity stunt
- # [17:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: It didn't seem -17 when I left at 8am though
- # [17:52] * gsnedders loves Philip`'s ridiculous alternative reasons for things
- # [17:53] <Philip`> Why is it ridiculous?
- # [17:53] <Philip`> I'm sure I've seen that on TV
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- # [17:54] <Dashiva> I don't think they say help
- # [17:54] <TabAtkins> I'd still rate that a not-good situation to be in, personally.
- # [17:54] <TabAtkins> I suppose it's the best of all the bad situations?
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- # [17:54] <Dashiva> Well, maybe bees is also the name of some kind of delicious batter
- # [17:55] <Dashiva> And you need help to eat it all up because it's too much for one person
- # [17:55] <Philip`> Being covered in batter doesn't seem good in any situation
- # [17:55] <Dashiva> Better than bees
- # [17:55] <Philip`> Just ask the fish
- # [17:56] <Philip`> Fish will complain about batter, not about bees
- # [17:56] <TabAtkins> If you covered a fish in bees, it would complain.
- # [17:56] <Dashiva> That's because a fish in a position to be covered in bees has bigger trouble than just the bees (i.e. being on land)
- # [17:57] * TabAtkins supposes this isn't any more ridiculous than the "vampires vs werewolves" debate he had in the bar last night. But at least he was drunk then.
- # [17:58] <Philip`> Dashiva: You're making unsafe generalisations
- # [17:58] <TabAtkins> I refuse to consider underwater bees.
- # [17:58] <Philip`> The fish might have fashioned itself a raft of bees, so it can float safely across shallow water
- # [18:00] <Dashiva> s/on land/out of water/
- # [18:00] <TabAtkins> Can it truly be said to be 'covered in' bees, then?
- # [18:01] <Philip`> The weight of the fish is sufficient to ensure it actually remains in the water, with the bees providing just enough buoyancy to not sink
- # [18:01] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Yes, the raft also has a roof made of bees, to keep the rain off
- # [18:01] <TabAtkins> Oh, yes, the fish wouldn't want to get wet.
- # [18:01] <Dashiva> I don't think being inside a structure counts as covered
- # [18:01] <Dashiva> It would have to be quite tight-fitting
- # [18:03] <jgraham> gsnedders: It was like -20something this morning
- # [18:03] <gsnedders> It didn't feel that bad.
- # [18:03] <jgraham> Possibly all your nerve endings have withered in the cold
- # [18:06] <Philip`> Dashiva: Do you know how hard it is for a fish to collect bees and knit them together?
- # [18:07] <Philip`> It's going to be tight-fitting just to save on the material and construction costs
- # [18:07] <Dashiva> Then it's not a raft anymore
- # [18:08] <Philip`> Now you're just quibbling over technicalities
- # [18:09] <Dashiva> As opposed to when? :P
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- # [18:12] <Dashiva> krijnh: How are those "funny" and "interesting" tags coming along? ;)
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- # [18:22] <annevk> http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/01/over-specification-is-anti-competitive.html "reverse engineering" myth
- # [18:22] <annevk> sometimes I'd really like some of that stuff all these people are smoking
- # [18:23] <annevk> but it's prolly not good for your health
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- # [19:04] <annevk> 666
- # [19:05] <annevk> maybe I should stop for today
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- # [19:10] <annevk> http://twitter.com/gruber/status/8404044407 and http://twitter.com/gruber/status/8417800859 are funny and interesting (about Flash usage)
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- # [19:18] <Dashiva> I wonder how many are just running noscript or somesuch
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- # [20:09] <jgraham> Dashiva: I guess a lot of them are running flashblock or similar. Especially given Gruber's audience and the legendarily bad performance of flash on non-Windows platforms
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- # [21:34] <annevk> <500
- # [21:34] <annevk> back to normal I suppose
- # [21:34] <annevk> took a little longer than expected
- # [21:36] <hsivonen> gruber's readers use iPhones
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- # [21:37] * hsivonen read DF last week on Maemo with Flash disabled for stability reasons
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- # [22:29] <Viper550> I find it ridiclous that afaik, your forum is so standards incompliant
- # [22:34] <Philip`> What would be the value of spending effort making it more compliant?
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- # [22:37] <jgraham> Or, to put it differently, are you offering to spend the effort needed to provide a different forum?
- # [22:39] <annevk> we could look for a more compliant forum
- # [22:41] <jgraham> Sure
- # [22:44] <Hixie> what does it do that is not compliant?
- # [22:45] <Hixie> we can always change the spec if there's no value in making it more compliant
- # [22:47] <Lachy> Hixie, that's cheating :-)
- # [22:48] <Lachy> but it uses a bunch of presentational attributes
- # [22:48] <Lachy> it also seems to declare the encoding wrongly with <meta> as ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8
- # [22:48] <Hixie> ah, well then it's probably not optimally accessible
- # [22:48] <Hixie> and will have i18n issues
- # [22:48] <Hixie> best to fix the problems
- # [22:52] <annevk> seems I haven't checked the forums since september
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- # [22:55] <annevk> hmm, FAQ is still somewhat wrong
- # [22:55] <annevk> though I guess removing HTML5 everywhere will just make matters more confusing at this point
- # [22:56] <Viper550> plus phpbb2 is olllllllld
- # [22:56] <annevk> whoa, Dell sucks with international pricing
- # [22:56] <Viper550> maybe just go to fluxbb?
- # [22:57] <annevk> Adamo is EUR 720 in US and EUR 1350 in the Netherlands
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- # [23:25] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, I know glazou figured that out and bought a computer last TPAC. Get one of us americans to buy for you and ship it?
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- # [23:31] <annevk> no it's okay, though that's an interesting offer I might take you up on one day :)
- # [23:35] <TabAtkins> I'd be happy to help if you ever need it. Market segmentation is annoying as hell, even if I *usually* benefit from it. ^_^
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- # Session Close: Sun Jan 31 00:00:00 2010
The end :)