/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-31 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  85. # [01:22] <annevk> Google product login policies make no sense
  86. # [01:22] <annevk> one tab with Gmail and one tab with Google Reader
  87. # [01:22] <annevk> login to Gmail and then refresh Google Reader
  88. # [01:22] <annevk> Google Reader asks for a password
  89. # [01:23] <annevk> going to reader.google.com does not ask for a password
  90. # [01:23] <annevk> you'd think that more people hit this situation and that it would be fixed by now...
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  95. # [02:08] <othermaciej> annevk: I would guess that is an implementation bug, not a policy
  96. # [02:08] <othermaciej> unfortunately Google has no way to report bugs
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  98. # [02:13] <annevk> btw: http://blogs.webtide.com/gregw/entry/websockets_ietf_v_whatwg
  99. # [02:14] <annevk> I added a comment with a link to http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3724&to=3725
  100. # [02:15] <annevk> it also seems somewhat dubious to me to assert that none of "servers, routers, bridges, proxies, firewalls, caches, load balancers, aggregators, offloaders, ISPs, filters, corporate security policies, traffic monitoring, billing, accounting, shaping, application frameworks etc. etc." participates in the WHATWG
  101. # [02:16] <annevk> but whatever
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  122. # [04:15] <Hixie> annevk: yeah especially given that the editor of the spec works for the third biggest web server implementor
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  135. # [05:37] <othermaciej> annevk: site seems to be down
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  160. # [10:21] <annevk> seems to work for me
  161. # [10:21] <annevk> maybe it was down temporarily?
  162. # [10:21] <annevk> still no comments approved though
  163. # [10:22] <Hixie> it was down temporarily
  164. # [10:26] <Hixie> othermaciej: you don't need anything in websocket to do the negotiation of what frame types are supported, because you simply wouldn't use the frame types with an unsupporting server
  165. # [10:26] <Hixie> othermaciej: you know who the server is when you connect to it -- it's the server you specified
  166. # [10:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: how does the server know what frame types the client supports?
  167. # [10:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's the same as when you write a <form>, you know what form fields it's expecting, because you know the server
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  169. # [10:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: send a frame of that type and see if you get a reply from your script
  170. # [10:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: also: the knowledge of frame types may need to be in the UA, not the JS-level code, if you expect frame types to have special processing and the UA is supposed to send them transparently
  171. # [10:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: or have the script feature-test and inform the server
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  173. # [10:28] <Hixie> can you give an example of such a type?
  174. # [10:28] <Hixie> i'm having difficulty working out what that would look like
  175. # [10:29] <othermaciej> let's say there was a frame type that implies gzip compression by the sender and gzip decompression by the client
  176. # [10:29] <Hixie> (don't forget that this is intended to be as close to pure TCP as we can get)
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  178. # [10:29] <Hixie> oh, that's easy
  179. # [10:29] <othermaciej> (so that your compression/decompression code could be C++ in the browser, instead of coded in JS)
  180. # [10:29] <Hixie> just include a Supports-Gzip: header in the handshake
  181. # [10:29] <othermaciej> is it ok to add arbitrary headers to the handshake?
  182. # [10:29] <Hixie> yes
  183. # [10:29] <Hixie> er, yes
  184. # [10:30] <othermaciej> then that seems to be all the negotiation mechanism needed
  185. # [10:30] <othermaciej> it might be useful to define a convention for known frame types, but that is not really needed until frame types exist beyond the 1.0 set
  186. # [10:30] <Hixie> indeed
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  188. # [10:31] <othermaciej> all I wanted to know is that there is a mechanism whereby the negotiation can be added compatibly, and without extra round trips
  189. # [10:31] <othermaciej> using custom headers seems fine
  190. # [10:31] <othermaciej> especially if we can later define one with a standard meaning
  191. # [10:32] <Hixie> i'm not new to this forwards-compatible language design gig :-P
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  193. # [10:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: I am trying to take Greg's feedback seriously, since I care about the protocol being workable and useful for server-side implementors, but he mixes up useful technical feedback with sudden leaps to feature requests, and process rants
  194. # [10:33] <othermaciej> but I'm not new to this peel-the-useful-feedback-out-of-the-rant gig
  195. # [10:33] <Hixie> :-)
  196. # [10:33] <Hixie> i've been trying the same for a while myself
  197. # [10:33] <othermaciej> he actually has tried to implement it in a server-side component that could potentially be production quality
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  199. # [10:34] <othermaciej> I wonder if there is any other general implementation besides the Python module that Google coded
  200. # [10:34] <Hixie> of the server?
  201. # [10:34] <Hixie> i made a toy in perl: http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/websocket/blank-server.pl
  202. # [10:35] <Hixie> and another in pascal: http://software.hixie.ch/fun/cuddlyworld/src/websocket.pas
  203. # [10:36] <othermaciej> pascal!
  204. # [10:36] <Hixie> that's what my toy MUD is written in :-)
  205. # [10:37] <Hixie> pascal these days is not what it used to be
  206. # [10:37] <Hixie> it has generics, method pointers, variants, the works
  207. # [10:38] <Hixie> method and operator overloading, classes, reflection
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  209. # [10:39] <Hixie> (not to mention a function pointer syntax that actually makes sense, unlike C/C++)
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  212. # [10:45] * gsnedders wonders whether it's worthwhile getting a week ticket for the public tansport
  213. # [10:45] <gsnedders> (which, because I'm under 20, is only 105 NOK)
  214. # [10:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: other implementations i'm aware of include Kaazing's
  215. # [10:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: also http://rainbows.rubyforge.org/sunshowers/
  216. # [10:46] <annevk> gsnedders, if you're planning on using it a lot, maybe
  217. # [10:47] <gsnedders> annevk: It's 26 for a single jounrney, so I only need to use it five times for it to be worthwhile
  218. # [10:47] <othermaciej> Hixie: have any of the server implementations generated feedback on the spec?
  219. # [10:47] <gsnedders> Even if I just used it to get to the office each day it's be worthwhile
  220. # [10:47] <gsnedders> *it'd
  221. # [10:47] <othermaciej> (going by the usual rule of "implementation that does not result in any feedback is suspicious" rule)
  222. # [10:47] <othermaciej> Hixie: that is cool though
  223. # [10:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: Kaazing basically invented the protocol as it stands now, if i'm not mistaken
  224. # [10:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: oh, that's the guy who pushed the version with the HTTP-based handshake?
  225. # [10:48] <Hixie> i think so
  226. # [10:48] <Hixie> i can't remember his name though
  227. # [10:48] <othermaciej> Hixie: but I thought you automatically rejected all feedback from server-side developers, since they are not represented in the WHATWG
  228. # [10:48] <Hixie> which is highly embarassing
  229. # [10:49] <othermaciej> I am dismayed at this breach of cabal protocol
  230. # [10:49] <Hixie> othermaciej: well as i pointed out on the list just now... i'm a representative of the third largest HTTP server developer by active domain count
  231. # [10:49] <Hixie> othermaciej: and we wrote an implementation for the biggest one
  232. # [10:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: and i just replied to the feedback from the second biggest
  233. # [10:50] <Hixie> so...
  234. # [10:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: but... but... what about proxy developers?
  235. # [10:51] <Hixie> like squid? had a huge thread with squid a few months ago
  236. # [10:51] <Hixie> took into account their feedback (also rejected a bunch of it, admittedly)
  237. # [10:53] <Hixie> i think the main reason people suggest i'm ignoring feedback is that i don't share the same priorities they do
  238. # [10:53] <Hixie> for grammar, s/i don't share the same priorities they do/we don't share the same priorities/
  239. # [10:53] <Hixie> i put ease of server-side implementation very high on the list, they put reducing the total number of TCP connections higher
  240. # [10:54] <Hixie> for instance
  241. # [11:00] <Hixie> Michael Carter, that's the Kaazing guy who did the original WebSocket design
  242. # [11:00] <Hixie> great guy
  243. # [11:07] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  244. # [11:17] <gsnedders> Lachy: Per what we said before, I'll probably come over to yours sometime between 5 and 7 this evening
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  249. # [11:42] <Lachy> gsnedders, ok
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  256. # [11:53] <annevk> hmm, is it only Document.URL that has it uppercase?
  257. # [11:53] <annevk> I guess we could change WebSocket/EventSource
  258. # [11:53] <annevk> but then I don't really care
  259. # [11:54] <Hixie> i'd really rather not change names for the sake of capitalisation at this point
  260. # [11:54] <annevk> oh, Stream.URL
  261. # [11:54] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  262. # [11:55] <annevk> I still find it wrong we use URNs for this...
  263. # [11:56] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.158)
  264. # [12:02] <Hixie> me too
  265. # [12:02] <Hixie> it's just going to screw up URNs in the future
  266. # [12:02] <Hixie> it's basically going to make it impossible to use URNs for anything but this in Web browsers
  267. # [12:03] <Hixie> but I have already tried to make that point, and the people who presumably care about URNs didn't believe me, so... not much I can do
  268. # [12:04] <annevk> it mostly that the meaning of the urn:uuid is very application-specific, but there's no way to tell if someone handed you that URL
  269. # [12:05] <annevk> we could register urn:local-file or some such to make it less of an issue but I don't see why filestream: or some such cannot work
  270. # [12:06] <Hixie> ditto
  271. # [12:06] <annevk> btw, should I draft a counter-proposal to UMP once I'm done with other XHR feedback?
  272. # [12:07] <annevk> either create a new AnonXMLHttpRequest() constructor or maybe make XHR take a new constructor argument
  273. # [12:08] <annevk> and then always set origin to null and the credentials flag too
  274. # [12:08] <annevk> othermaciej, ^^
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  278. # [12:20] <annevk> argh
  279. # [12:20] <annevk> making everything in XHR byte-based instead of Unicode-based is a pain
  280. # [12:21] <annevk> not hard
  281. # [12:21] <annevk> just a pain
  282. # [12:21] <annevk> well, it's hard figuring out how to do it easy I guess
  283. # [12:23] <annevk> in retrospect I should've let Hixie do XHR and work more on the CSSOM instead
  284. # [12:23] <csarven> The URI to full whatwg spec is such a trap, if I end-up at it using Firefox, guaranteed chaos/doomed/crash/lockup.
  285. # [12:23] <Hixie> annevk: I'm so glad you took XHR on!
  286. # [12:28] <annevk> basically ASCII case-insensitive and all need to go and be replaced with byte equivalent terms instead
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  288. # [12:28] <annevk> though maybe I can just use case-insensitive then
  289. # [12:29] <annevk> just like HTTP does
  290. # [12:30] <annevk> it's actually slightly weird imo that HTTP uses case-insensitive and case-sensitive while the same WG also states that the character encoding in usage is not defined
  291. # [12:30] <annevk> or some such
  292. # [12:30] <annevk> but maybe case-insensitive "just works" for series of octets
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  294. # [12:37] * annevk wonders why http://www.defectivebydesign.org/shareipad does not have a share on twitter button...
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  308. # [13:40] <annevk> sites using Flash was a real problem when trying to find more information about certain hostels online in Argentina by the way
  309. # [13:41] <annevk> basically, we ended up picking one of the hostels of which the site did not require Flash
  310. # [13:42] <annevk> threaded view in Opera Mail is now just like Gmail except faster
  311. # [13:42] <annevk> pretty neat
  312. # [13:43] * annevk had been using a flat view until trying to go through 4000 emails efficiently
  313. # [13:59] <Dashiva> Does it support multiple accounts yet?
  314. # [13:59] <annevk> character to byte conversion is complete btw; please review!
  315. # [14:00] <annevk> Dashiva, you mean something other than multiple IMAP accounts on the server?
  316. # [14:01] <Dashiva> Multiple SMTP accounts
  317. # [14:01] <Dashiva> Or more accurately, multiple sending addresses
  318. # [14:03] <annevk> there's a from dropdown when composing
  319. # [14:03] <annevk> no idea whether it works
  320. # [14:05] <Dashiva> Sounds like the old system
  321. # [14:07] <Dashiva> It breaks sent mail saving and such
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  323. # [14:25] <annevk> damn video codecs
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  331. # [14:59] <Dashiva> http://twitter.com/reckless/status/8431718270
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  334. # [15:05] <virtuelv> Dashiva: I don't get his argument
  335. # [15:05] <virtuelv> at all
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  338. # [15:11] <Dashiva> virtuelv: In response to the claim that the number of flash-enabled UAs is dropping
  339. # [15:16] <virtuelv> yes
  340. # [15:16] <virtuelv> but it still doesn't make sense
  341. # [15:17] <virtuelv> the reason people use flashblock and similar is because there are sites that break (read: youtube) if they rid themselves of flash
  342. # [15:18] <Dashiva> There are plenty of sites that don't break without flash, though
  343. # [15:19] <Steve^> and plenty that do
  344. # [15:19] <Steve^> So either you block the crappy ones and have a full browsing experience or uninstall flash and have a 90% experience
  345. # [15:20] <Dashiva> That's the point. Flash is part of the full browsing experience.
  346. # [15:20] <Steve^> so.. we need flash installed?
  347. # [15:21] <Dashiva> That depends on your definition of need
  348. # [15:21] <Steve^> and your definition of browsing experience, apparently
  349. # [15:22] <Dashiva> You don't need flash to browse in general, but you need flash to browse sites that use flash
  350. # [15:22] <Steve^> exactly
  351. # [15:22] <Steve^> so you need flash to browse the full experience of the web
  352. # [15:22] <Steve^> Youtube is included in that
  353. # [15:26] <annevk> not anymore
  354. # [15:26] <Steve^> ok, ok, but the statement holds
  355. # [15:26] <Dashiva> Unless you use firefox :)
  356. # [15:28] <Steve^> Would it be impossible for firefox to use H.264 because of the licensing?
  357. # [15:29] <Dashiva> Yes, no, depending on ideology
  358. # [15:29] <GarethAdams|Home> it would *cost* firefox to use H.264 - in the same way as it does for Chrome/Opera
  359. # [15:30] <GarethAdams|Home> but then it should also cost content providers who encode in H.264
  360. # [15:30] <TabAtkins> And, iirc, it will, starting sometime next year?
  361. # [15:30] <Dashiva> There are also problems with using OS-provided codecs, although people disagree on how signficant those are
  362. # [15:31] <Steve^> Who does the money go to/
  363. # [15:31] <TabAtkins> MPEGLA
  364. # [15:32] <Steve^> why do Apple want to push a technology that mean its content providers need to pay money to those people
  365. # [15:32] <Dashiva> Because they've already paid for h264
  366. # [15:32] <Steve^> Apple have
  367. # [15:33] <Steve^> but by content providers, I read Youtube or anyone hosting video on their website
  368. # [15:33] <virtuelv> in terms of flash, though: I see mostly only flash I want to see, but then again, I block graphical ads
  369. # [15:33] <TabAtkins> Because they're short-sighted, imo.
  370. # [15:33] <Dashiva> Apple also has a strong interest in devices, where hardware h264 is already established
  371. # [15:33] <virtuelv> and it's not the flash I want to see, rather the video
  372. # [15:33] <TabAtkins> (I agree fully with ROC's view on the matter.)
  373. # [15:33] <Steve^> Long term I'll need to pay money to put home-made videos on my website?
  374. # [15:34] <TabAtkins> In h.264, likely yes.
  375. # [15:34] <Steve^> That will just empower flash to keep going, surely
  376. # [15:34] <Dashiva> Well, you can't create really flash for free either
  377. # [15:34] * Dashiva moves the 'really' over a few words
  378. # [15:35] <GarethAdams|Home> lol
  379. # [15:35] <Dashiva> Take youtube, the whole h264 business is hidden from the content creators
  380. # [15:39] <virtuelv> Dashiva: what about when the cost won't be hidden?
  381. # [15:39] <Dashiva> Then it won't matter much if they're using h264 inside or outside of flash, will it?
  382. # [15:40] <Steve^> I take Youtube to be the content provider, the uploader wouldn't be charged unless Youtube decided to pass on the costs
  383. # [15:41] <Steve^> which may become a way for Youtube to become more profitable
  384. # [15:42] <Dashiva> Would mean waving goodbye to the long tail, though
  385. # [15:45] <virtuelv> btw, for web video, I don't really get the quality argument
  386. # [15:46] <virtuelv> the quality of the majority of uploaded video is so abysmal anyhow that a slightly lower-quality codec won't matter
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  388. # [15:47] <Dashiva> Quality isn't an absolute, it's a trade-off against size. Better codecs let you optimize in either direction
  389. # [15:47] <Philip`> Also a tradeoff against encoding time
  390. # [15:47] <GarethAdams|Home> virtuelv: I don't get *that* argument
  391. # [15:47] <GarethAdams|Home> virtuelv: you're saying, cameraphones make rubbish quality video so we should standardise on a solution that stops production-quality video from being shown off at full quality?
  392. # [15:48] <Dashiva> Philip`: Encoding is only once, though
  393. # [15:48] <Philip`> Also the quality of the codec is not the only major factor, the quality of the encoder implementation is pretty important too
  394. # [15:49] <Philip`> and popular codecs have more and better encoders, so you can get better videos even if the codec is technically no better than another
  395. # [15:49] <Steve^> Does OGG violate any of these factors?
  396. # [15:49] <Dashiva> No
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  398. # [15:51] <Dashiva> Theora's main lack is that h264 has an established position, e.g. in the form of companies already paying for it and exposing patent risk, and in the form of hardware support
  399. # [15:51] <Dashiva> The squabbling over quality is less important, for reasons Philip` pointed out
  400. # [15:51] <Philip`> Dashiva: If you're someone like Youtube and you have a day of videos to encode per minute, I imagine the overall encoding time is an issue
  401. # [15:51] <Philip`> and if you're a user of Youtube then the latency of encoding is important, because you want to point people at your video as quickly as possible
  402. # [15:51] <Steve^> Hardware support shouldn't be an issue for Apple as they control the hardware they use
  403. # [15:52] <Dashiva> Philip`: Those seem lesser concerns than bottom line costs and profits, though
  404. # [15:52] <Steve^> It would be an issue for say, Opera Mini, which has a very large target hardware
  405. # [15:52] <Philip`> and if you're encoding and hosting videos by yourself then you probably still don't fancy spending an hour compressing your videos with really good compression before uploading them
  406. # [15:54] <Philip`> Dashiva: Isn't the cost basically CPU time + storage + bandwidth, so encoding time is an important part of that concern?
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  408. # [15:54] <Steve^> Philip`, it is of course a concern, but not has important as the others
  409. # [15:54] <Philip`> (and most videos are viewed approximately zero times so bandwidth is negligible)
  410. # [15:55] <Dashiva> I wonder what the stats on that actually are
  411. # [15:56] <Dashiva> And it's easier to grow server CPU time than it is to grow the end user's bandwidth :)
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  414. # [16:01] <Philip`> Fig 7 in http://www.cs.sfu.ca/~jcliu/Papers/YouTube-IWQoS2008.pdf indicates some numbers
  415. # [16:01] <Philip`> Looks like 50% have <400 views
  416. # [16:02] <Philip`> and 90% have <10000
  417. # [16:02] <Steve^> that's more than 0
  418. # [16:03] <Philip`> (in 2007)
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  420. # [16:04] <Steve^> this argument is a little pointless unless a competing video codec happens to have terrible encoding times
  421. # [16:04] <Philip`> (Seems quite possible that their data collection method is biased towards more popular videos, given how they crawled the site)
  422. # [16:04] <Philip`> Steve^: Not a lot more than 0 :-)
  423. # [16:05] <Philip`> Well, maybe a bit
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  426. # [16:10] <TabAtkins> Steve^: From what I understand, Google is happy with Youtube's current profitability.
  427. # [16:11] <Philip`> TabAtkins: You mean its current lack of profitability? :-)
  428. # [16:12] <TabAtkins> All I know is, last article I read where they were asked about it, they coyly suggested that it wasn't *nearly* as unprofitable as everyone assumes.
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  430. # [16:18] <Dashiva> Completely differently unprofitable
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  434. # [16:26] <Philip`> (Hmm, if I actually look at numbers instead of guessing, it seems like encoder CPU time and disk storage are about equally cheap, and bandwidth is around a thousand times higher, to within a couple of orders of magnitude)
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  517. # [21:12] <Dashiva> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8850
  518. # [21:13] <Dashiva> Just when you thought it was safe to focus on technical details...
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  520. # [21:14] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8849 is interesting
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  529. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> annevk: A better variant of that idea would be to allow @sandbox on <html>, but that's already been suggested to be possible on any element - it fails open in legacy clients, though.
  530. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> At least, though, the escaping situation is less dire if you don't do it right - worst case the page will end prematurely because an attacker emitted </html>.
  531. # [21:56] <Philip`> <plaintext sandbox>
  532. # [21:56] <Philip`> That'll have safe legacy behaviour
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  534. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Once you do that, though, what's the point of @sandbox?
  535. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> <plaintext> prevents the <script> from running anyway.
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  539. # [21:58] <Philip`> In supporting browsers it would parse the context as sandboxed HTML instead
  540. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> ...that makes sense. Hmm.
  541. # [22:00] <Dashiva> How about just serving text/html-sandboxed?
  542. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> That doesn't let you specify which sandboxing behaviors you want.
  543. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> Though, of course, if you then do <html sandbox>...
  544. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> That is, if you do that and serve it with text/html-sandboxed.
  545. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> That seems like a good idea.
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  547. # [22:05] <Philip`> No point making it so complex that people won't bother using it
  548. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> I've added a comment to the bug along those lines.
  549. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> No more complex than iframe sandboxing.
  550. # [22:05] <Philip`> Does <iframe sandbox src> require that the content is text/html-sandboxed?
  551. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> No, it doesn't require it. It'll just fail open if you don't. Same thing here.
  552. # [22:05] <annevk> it wouldn't fail for cross-origin
  553. # [22:06] <annevk> at some point we might need a global script language switch
  554. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> Well, partially. You'd get the different-origin protection, at least.
  555. # [22:06] <Philip`> I guess it'll be common for people to either forget to set the content-type at all, or to accidentally set it back to text/html later when they're not paying attention, which wouldn't be much fun
  556. # [22:07] <Philip`> (and they wouldn't notice until someone exploited it)
  557. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> Shrug. The alternative is encoding the content in such a way so that it can't be interpreted as html at all by legacy clients.
  558. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> At least it's a problem that will go away with time.
  559. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> (As legacy clients drop off.)
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  562. # [22:24] <annevk> hmm, trying to figure out when enableStyleSheetsForSet was renamed in Mozilla is somewhat of a pain with Bugzilla not giving me answers and HG Blame not going back to when CVS was still used
  563. # [22:26] <annevk> oh, it never was renamed
  564. # [22:26] <annevk> hmm
  565. # [22:28] <annevk> I guess it must have been a private email conversation back then
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  567. # [22:29] <annevk> oh well, it does not matter, history will record it as a typo I made
  568. # [22:35] <Philip`> If you didn't find it already: CVS blame still exists and works, for the pre-Hg code
  569. # [22:36] <annevk> yeah, found it when looking a little longer
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  580. # [23:18] <smaug___> annevk: to look for changes in mozilla tree before hg time, use http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/ or http://mxr-test.konigsberg.mozilla.org/
  581. # [23:18] <smaug___> the latter one has links to both hg and cvs
  582. # [23:19] <annevk> thanks, already found what I needed
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  590. # Session Close: Mon Feb 01 00:00:00 2010

The end :)