/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 03 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jgraham> What is upposed to happen if I delete an index property from a CanvasPixelArray?
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  5. # [00:00] <jgraham> *supposed
  6. # [00:02] <jgraham> I can't see anything special in the spec which suggests it works like an ordinary js object i.e. the property gets removed
  7. # [00:04] <jgraham> But I wonder if that is detrimental to performance
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  10. # [00:08] <jgraham> (Needless to say cross browser compatibility here is negligible, but Opera, Safari and Chrome seem to agree that properties should not be deleted by 'delete' even though Chrome and Safari return 'true' for the delete operation. Also Safari doesn't seem to support hasOwnProperty on the CanvasPixelArray)
  11. # [00:10] <Dashiva> jgraham: There's no deleter operator on the interface, so delete wouldn't do anything (unless there was a real JS property to delete)
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  13. # [00:11] <jgraham> Dashiva: Interesting. But why does an index property not count as a real property? It returns true for hasOwnProperty?
  14. # [00:11] <jgraham> s/?//
  15. # [00:12] <KevinMarks> roc: not really; then they could keep selling their dev tools, but output HTML5 and stop maintaining their runtime (which they give away)
  16. # [00:13] <roc> sure
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  18. # [00:13] <jgraham> Dashiva: Specifically in http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#delete we must get to step 3 because otherwise properties with deleter set wouldn't be deleted
  19. # [00:13] <roc> I think they'd face more competition in HTML5 tools
  20. # [00:13] <jgraham> Dashiva: But step 3 doesn't apply so we end up in step 5
  21. # [00:13] <Hixie> i wish they'd face competition in HTML5 tools
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  23. # [00:15] <Dashiva> jgraham: The way the interface is specified, there is no JS property/ies respresenting the actual data
  24. # [00:15] <Dashiva> It's like a java object with only getValue and setValue
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  26. # [00:16] <jgraham> Dashiva: I see your argument but it is wholely unclear to me that that is how it is intended to work
  27. # [00:16] <Dashiva> Well, it has been a long time since I read WebIDL, let me check that it hasn't changed incompatibly underneath me
  28. # [00:17] <jgraham> It also leads to the strange behaviour where delete CanvasPixelArray[index] unconditionally does nothing yet always returns true
  29. # [00:18] <Dashiva> Oh, here it is
  30. # [00:18] <Dashiva> I was partially wrong. The properties for the indexes are indeed created. However, they are created with { DontDelete }
  31. # [00:18] <jgraham> Ah, that sounds promising
  32. # [00:19] * jgraham finds that
  33. # [00:20] <Dashiva> It should return false on delete, though
  34. # [00:20] <jgraham> Dashiva: Thanks
  35. # [00:20] <Dashiva> (Since they're DontDelete)
  36. # [00:20] <jgraham> Dashiva: Sure. WebKit browsers are wrong
  37. # [00:20] <jgraham> (and Firefox is very wrong)
  38. # [00:21] * jgraham is happy because this is how he assumed it would work in the first place :)
  39. # [00:22] <Dashiva> (I suppose their code might be based on earlier webidl where the properties didn't exist at all)
  40. # [00:25] <jgraham> Yeah, that probably sounded criticl in a way that I din't intend
  41. # [00:25] <jgraham> *critical
  42. # [00:26] * jgraham is looking forward to the new version of WebIDL based on ES5, hopefully with the same improvements to algorithm readability
  43. # [00:28] <Dashiva> I don't envy anyone the task of making it compatible with both es3 and es5 :)
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  63. # [01:18] <JonathanNeal> If I had a text selection plugin that selected text from X to Y, would you think that Y was a length or an absolute distance like X?
  64. # [01:19] <Philip`> Yes
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  66. # [01:20] <JonathanNeal> Yes to which?
  67. # [01:20] <Philip`> I wouldn't assume one particular behaviour - JS isn't even self-consistent, with substr vs substring
  68. # [01:20] <Philip`> so I'd check the documentation
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  92. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> karlcow: thanks for catching the td/@scope thing
  93. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> fixed now
  94. # [01:57] <karlcow> thanks!
  95. # [01:57] <MikeSmith> the reason validator.nu didn't have that same bug is that the mistake was in the assertions.sch (Schematron) file, which v.nu doesn't actually use (it uses some workalike Java code now)
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  150. # [06:02] <othermaciej> does CORS limit what headers can be sent cross-site using a whitelist or a blacklist?
  151. # [06:02] <othermaciej> I guess it's a whitelist unless you opt into more
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  170. # [06:26] <Hixie> othermaciej: anything interesting on the hybi list today? i saw masses of traffic but haven't read it yet
  171. # [06:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: useful info about close handshake and what it takes to make one that actually works (depending on what you are trying to achieve)
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  173. # [06:27] <Hixie> cool
  174. # [06:27] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  175. # [06:27] <othermaciej> several server authors conceding that header ordering / capitalization is their only practical problem with "not really HTTP"
  176. # [06:27] <othermaciej> I sent a more detailed comment outlining the security risks that my nonce proposal was meant to address, as well as a more detailed description of how it could work
  177. # [06:27] <othermaciej> I will ask abarth to look at the latter as soon as it appears in the archives
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  179. # [06:29] <Hixie> cool
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  192. # [08:11] <hsivonen> :-( the jQuery team still talks about "access control" instead of CORS
  193. # [08:25] <Hixie> i've decided to take a new approach to the whole "Flash is ready now, HTML5 won't be ready til 2022" thing.
  194. # [08:26] <Hixie> "2022 is the date I estimate there'll be two complete and bug-free implementations of HTML5. What's the estimated date for when there'll be two complete and bug-free implementations of Flash?"
  195. # [08:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: is Adobe Flash Player axiomatically bug-free?
  196. # [08:33] <hsivonen> can reference impls have bugs?
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  198. # [08:34] <hsivonen> but, yeah, that's the appropriate response
  199. # [08:35] <annevk> I thought Flash was over?
  200. # [08:36] <hsivonen> annevk: do you have it installed?
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  217. # [09:17] <Lerc> wayhay! Logfile says... Output_String(ae8ff128)
  218. # [09:17] <Lerc> All Done!
  219. # [09:17] <Lerc> BAD!! :vxproc_run trap 0xe
  220. # [09:17] <Lerc> Plugin Thread Terminating
  221. # [09:18] <Lerc> Logfile generated from running this code --> http://pastebin.ca/1776349
  222. # [09:18] <Lerc> in this browser plugin --> http://i.imgur.com/5tGBv.png
  223. # [09:18] <annevk> hsivonen, I think so, though it's either disabled/not working in my day-to-day browser
  224. # [09:19] * Lerc too, is planning a way to give Flash a kick in the guts.
  225. # [09:20] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  226. # [09:21] <Lerc> With a bit of luck I can also be finished by 2022.
  227. # [09:21] <annevk> with what?
  228. # [09:22] <Lerc> said browser plugin above ^^^
  229. # [09:24] <hsivonen> annevk: I am weak. I still unblock Flash for YouTube, Google Maps and thedailyshow.com
  230. # [09:24] <meledin> youtube.com/html5?
  231. # [09:24] <hsivonen> but I've disabled Flash in Fennec on my N800
  232. # [09:25] <hsivonen> meledin: I use a browser that doesn't support proprietary codecs except via NPAPI
  233. # [09:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah i did consider that one of the possible follow-ups would be to say something like "i'm feeling generous. How about an ETA for _one_ bug-free implementation?" but that's not really the point I wanted to make. :-)
  234. # [09:25] <annevk> I still don't understand how non-ASCII cookies work
  235. # [09:26] <annevk> I guess I'm missing something
  236. # [09:27] <hsivonen> looks like my flashblock whitelist has 8 sites on it
  237. # [09:27] <hsivonen> and one of them isn't even available to IP addresses associated with Finland
  238. # [09:27] <hsivonen> looks like I whitelisted hulu while traveling
  239. # [09:28] <hsivonen> the whitelist being google.com, hulu.com, lufthansa.com, thedailyshow.com, vimeo.com, youtube.com, google.fi and sony.fi
  240. # [09:29] <hsivonen> so one airline whose online check-in is implemented cluelessly
  241. # [09:29] <matijsb> unbelievable
  242. # [09:29] <hsivonen> one product catalog site that is implemented cluelessly
  243. # [09:29] <hsivonen> Google Maps
  244. # [09:29] <hsivonen> plus video sites
  245. # [09:30] <hsivonen> I'm sure other people have other kinds of lists, but it seems that everything on my list could already be done with browser-native features in Firefox, Chrome and Safari (and soon Opera)
  246. # [09:30] <meledin> All I know is I developed a disdain for Flash once I realised it was the cause of 100% CPU use on one core whenever it activated, no matter what it was doing
  247. # [09:30] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  248. # [09:31] <meledin> Also that gave me a handy excuse to ignore any youtube links
  249. # [09:31] * Joins: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  250. # [09:32] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  251. # [09:33] <matijsb> Flash has been abused for the wrong purpose too many times
  252. # [09:36] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.206) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  253. # [09:40] <Peter-> definitely
  254. # [09:40] <Peter-> a co-worker of mine recently said "Flash is here to replace GIF"
  255. # [09:41] * Joins: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  256. # [09:42] <annevk> I guess the non-ASCII thread is not about DOMString to byte mapping at all
  257. # [09:42] <annevk> Fronteers invading #whatwg or has it always been like this? :)
  258. # [09:43] <matijsb> Been evesdropping a bit up until now ;)
  259. # [09:43] <matijsb> eavesdropping even
  260. # [09:47] <meledin> Been trying to eavesdrop but irssi-proxy was being annoying
  261. # [09:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm getting "can't send to channel" on #webkit for some reason
  262. # [09:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: any idea why?
  263. # [09:52] <othermaciej> Hixie: it might be set to require registration
  264. # [09:52] <Hixie> ah
  265. # [09:52] <othermaciej> to protect against flooding
  266. # [09:52] <othermaciej> is your nick registered?
  267. # [09:52] <othermaciej> I can try to fix it if I remember how
  268. # [09:52] <Hixie> i thought it was
  269. # [09:52] <Hixie> let me try reconnecting
  270. # [09:52] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@trivini.no) (Quit: Reconnecting)
  271. # [09:52] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@trivini.no)
  272. # [09:53] <Hixie> hm, that fixed it
  273. # [10:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/700863
  274. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
  275. # [10:08] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  276. # [10:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't see a BOM on the first line of the files it complains about
  277. # [10:09] <hsivonen> so can't be that
  278. # [10:09] <hsivonen> if the datatype lib isn't loading, there's no explicit error about that
  279. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, I'm pretty sure that's because of the misguided monkeying I did with the entity-map.txt
  280. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> I think you might have to do the thing of running the build twice
  281. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> to rebuild the local-entities jar file
  282. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> I think
  283. # [10:10] * hsivonen runs localent
  284. # [10:13] <hsivonen> ok. that fixes the schemas
  285. # [10:13] <hsivonen> now I get
  286. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Caused by: java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException: Index: 1, Size: 1 at java.util.LinkedList.entry(LinkedList.java:365) at java.util.LinkedList.get(LinkedList.java:315) at nu.validator.messages.MessageEmitterAdapter.<clinit>(MessageEmitterAdapter.java:136)
  287. # [10:13] * hsivonen investigates
  288. # [10:13] <annevk> othermaciej, agreed that the credentials thing is just a bug
  289. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I am getting that same error too
  290. # [10:14] <annevk> othermaciej, I was never quite sure how to spell it out so I guess I sort of forgot...
  291. # [10:14] * MikeSmith looks also
  292. # [10:14] <othermaciej> annevk: should I file it somewhere?
  293. # [10:14] <othermaciej> annevk: the way UMP spells it out seems fine to me
  294. # [10:15] <annevk> usually I just keep track of email and delete email once I fixed the bug
  295. # [10:15] <hsivonen> is the wiki down or something
  296. # [10:15] <annevk> we have an issue tracker if you prefer to have an issue number associated with it
  297. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: looks to be up
  298. # [10:16] <hsivonen> so it's failing when loading the alt advice
  299. # [10:16] <annevk> othermaciej, http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/track/
  300. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> maybe http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_alt_advice changed in an unexpected way
  301. # [10:16] <hsivonen> and alt advice is unchanged
  302. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> yeah
  303. # [10:16] <hsivonen> the content at least
  304. # [10:16] * hsivonen wonder if MediaWiki around it changed
  305. # [10:16] <hsivonen> yay for distributed failures
  306. # [10:16] <othermaciej> annevk: I hate using the tracker as a bug tracker but ok
  307. # [10:17] <othermaciej> annevk: actually I don't appear to have the power to raise issues in that one
  308. # [10:17] <annevk> oh, sorry
  309. # [10:18] <annevk> we switched WGs :)
  310. # [10:18] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/ is it
  311. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie, Lachy - was the whatwg Wiki backend updated recently?
  312. # [10:18] <hsivonen> annevk: whoa. that tracker has a lot of people on it
  313. # [10:19] <othermaciej> does XHR send Referer?
  314. # [10:20] <othermaciej> If so, that's a third way in which UMP might not be a CORS subset (unless CORS is taken to give license to exclude it)
  315. # [10:21] <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/114
  316. # [10:22] <Lachy> MikeSmith, yes
  317. # [10:22] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Quit: GarethAdams|Home)
  318. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> ah
  319. # [10:22] <Lachy> AryehGregor updated it to 1.6 beta
  320. # [10:22] <othermaciej> annevk: should CORS with a unique identifier Origin strip Refer, or would that happen automatically?
  321. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> OK
  322. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> Lachy: the change seems to have possibly broken the mechanism that validator.nu uses for parsing out the alt-advice from the Wiki
  323. # [10:23] <annevk> othermaciej, it would not happen automatically
  324. # [10:23] <othermaciej> what Refer (if any) gets sent when you have a unique identifier origin?
  325. # [10:23] <othermaciej> er, Referer
  326. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> Lachy: and maybe also the code for retrieving microsyntax info
  327. # [10:23] <othermaciej> it's so hard to type the misspelling!
  328. # [10:24] <annevk> othermaciej, heh
  329. # [10:24] <annevk> othermaciej, I'm not sure really
  330. # [10:24] <annevk> I've no idea how Referer is constructed usually
  331. # [10:24] <othermaciej> does XHR specify anything about Referer?
  332. # [10:25] <annevk> Only that authors cannot manipulate it iirc
  333. # [10:25] <annevk> Yup, that's all
  334. # [10:26] <othermaciej> does HTML5 specify the Refer to use when the origin is a unique identifier? (and would that apply to XHR or CORS?)
  335. # [10:26] * hsivonen wonders if the old MediaWiki used <h2> for "Contents"
  336. # [10:26] <othermaciej> (I'm trying to figure out what bugs if any I need to file)
  337. # [10:26] <Hixie> othermaciej: look for the "fetch" algorithm
  338. # [10:26] <Hixie> othermaciej: it says how to determine Referer
  339. # [10:26] <Hixie> othermaciej: let me know if it needs changing
  340. # [10:27] <hsivonen> maybe the code needs to scrape span class="mw-headline" instead of h2
  341. # [10:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: no hits on the term "fetch algorithm"
  342. # [10:27] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#fetch
  343. # [10:27] <othermaciej> well there are, but all relating to media elements
  344. # [10:28] <othermaciej> it looks like the computation of Referer does not specifically consider whether the origin is a unique identifier
  345. # [10:29] <othermaciej> "Generate the address of the resource from which Request-URIs are obtained as required by HTTP for the Referer (sic) header from the document's current address of the appropriate Document as given by the following list."
  346. # [10:30] <Hixie> i guess it just always gives the full URL currently
  347. # [10:30] <Hixie> data: and all
  348. # [10:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think it should probably say that no Referer should be sent if the origin is a unique identifier
  349. # [10:30] <annevk> XMLHttpRequest does not use "fetch"
  350. # [10:30] <othermaciej> both for the sake of data: and for the sake of sandboxed iframes
  351. # [10:31] <annevk> I tried, but it did not work out for some reason
  352. # [10:31] <othermaciej> annevk: XHR probably needs to spec Referer itself then
  353. # [10:31] <hsivonen> hmm. weird. the first list item has the right content at least at the start
  354. # [10:31] <othermaciej> or rather, what URI to use for Referer as required by HTTP
  355. # [10:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: can you enter a bug using the review feedback tool?
  356. # [10:32] <annevk> othermaciej, yeah :/
  357. # [10:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: doing it the old fashioned way
  358. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I noticed the same thing
  359. # [10:33] <Hixie> othermaciej: thanks
  360. # [10:33] <Hixie> anyone know if the fullscreen thread has reached a conclusion i can spec? was the security problem figured out?
  361. # [10:34] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38)
  362. # [10:34] <Hixie> i have 300 e-mails on video that i should get around to replying to
  363. # [10:34] <Hixie> and 143 on parsing
  364. # [10:34] <othermaciej> I need to read the video thread
  365. # [10:34] <othermaciej> the fullscreen thread rather
  366. # [10:34] <othermaciej> and the es-discuss threads on modules
  367. # [10:35] <annevk> I thought the fullscreen thread was awaiting some input from WebKit
  368. # [10:35] <annevk> but maybe I missed something
  369. # [10:35] <othermaciej> then I better read it
  370. # [10:35] <othermaciej> though I know Simon posted
  371. # [10:36] <annevk> oh yeah, hmm
  372. # [10:36] <othermaciej> I believe that for subtle reasons the fullscreen video API we have in WebKit is secure, but I would much prefer a general fullscreen API (not sure why we did not do that) and that might be a harder problem
  373. # [10:36] <othermaciej> filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8869
  374. # [10:37] <othermaciej> annevk: I'm not sure if CORS needs to specify Referer behavior in addition to XHR
  375. # [10:37] <Hixie> i'd love to know how it's secure :-)
  376. # [10:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it looks like the condition for moving out of IN_PROSE is brittle
  377. # [10:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think you can't use it to fool the user into thinking it's the OS because it has a distinct animation going into it (so it's clear what is happening), because it shows controls when it first pops up, and because it requires a user event to pop it up (so it can't just go fullscreen while you are AFK)
  378. # [10:38] <othermaciej> it also doesn't accept keyboard input
  379. # [10:38] <othermaciej> I am not sure what other security risks people are worried about
  380. # [10:38] <hsivonen> this is not as bad as reading one's old Perl code, but I wish I had written down what I was thinking when I wrote the exit condition for IN_PROSE
  381. # [10:39] <hsivonen> aah. now I remember
  382. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> heh
  383. # [10:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: ew, not allowing keyboard input is a pretty coarse solution
  384. # [10:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: effective, mind you
  385. # [10:39] <hsivonen> MediaWiki has moved to id='foo' and gotten rid of the <a name> cruft
  386. # [10:39] <hsivonen> so yay, I guess
  387. # [10:40] <annevk> so they're up to 2000 standards now?
  388. # [10:40] <annevk> good for them!
  389. # [10:40] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: Leaving)
  390. # [10:40] <othermaciej> annevk: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/115
  391. # [10:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: well, it's sufficient for <video>, but not really for arbitrary full-screen
  392. # [10:41] <annevk> yay, issues
  393. # [10:41] <annevk> we'll do eternal WD for XHR
  394. # [10:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: a full-screen video should not need the ability to handle arbitrary user events (since in our current model at least it gets built-in standard controls)
  395. # [10:41] <othermaciej> annevk: I don't think that one warrants coming out of CR or redoing LC or whatever
  396. # [10:41] <annevk> sometimes it would be nice to have a WHATWG copy I could mark as Draft Standard so people would implement it
  397. # [10:42] <othermaciej> is anyone currently unwilling to implement it due to the current status?
  398. # [10:42] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  399. # [10:42] <annevk> Boris Zbarsky has indicated that, though maybe it is no longer true
  400. # [10:42] <annevk> not sure about the IE guys either
  401. # [10:43] <annevk> (of course Firefox does implement all the new features)
  402. # [10:43] <Hixie> annevk: i've suggested setting something up so i can import XHR into the complete.html spec on the fly :-)
  403. # [10:43] <othermaciej> if Firefox is refusing to implement the bug fixes because the spec is not CR, that is major weaksauce
  404. # [10:43] <othermaciej> like I said though I don't think the Referer issue should block CR
  405. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: wouldn't that contaminate the spec's license?
  406. # [10:44] <othermaciej> it is not an error per se, just a case where something is underspecified by the other relevant specs
  407. # [10:44] <annevk> no, it's more that he's not interested in spending much time on it
  408. # [10:44] <othermaciej> I guess if it goes CR it can be in Acid4
  409. # [10:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: well anne would have to relicense it, yeah
  410. # [10:44] <annevk> Acid4 hopefully has new criteria
  411. # [10:45] <othermaciej> then, after copious whining about how acid tests suck, Mozilla and IE would conform to the spec
  412. # [10:45] <annevk> and yeah, it should test every single bug, twice
  413. # [10:45] <annevk> we'll get to REC in no time :)
  414. # [10:46] <annevk> othermaciej, you think we still want UMP if we can get AnonXMLHttpRequest?
  415. # [10:46] <othermaciej> annevk: I don't buy Tyler's arguments for why we need it if CORS clearly has a mode that is equivalent to UMP
  416. # [10:46] <annevk> othermaciej, if so I'm not sure AnonXMLHttpRequest or XMLHttpRequest(anon=true) is worth it
  417. # [10:47] <annevk> k
  418. # [10:47] <othermaciej> annevk: his argument that CORS should be written as a UMP extension in particular does not sway me, since UMP is not written in a way that seems to allow extensions
  419. # [10:47] * Hixie strongly prefers an argument and not a whole new object
  420. # [10:47] <othermaciej> whether AnonXMLHttpRequest uses UMP or a CORS mode doesn't really matter much to me though
  421. # [10:47] <Hixie> i guarantee a whole new object will result in a whole set of new bugs
  422. # [10:48] <annevk> it's a new constructor
  423. # [10:48] <othermaciej> I have mixed feelings
  424. # [10:48] <annevk> not object
  425. # [10:48] <othermaciej> benefits of new object:
  426. # [10:48] <annevk> it's not a new object!
  427. # [10:48] <annevk> :)
  428. # [10:48] <othermaciej> 1) slightly easier for Caja-like things to do their thing
  429. # [10:48] <othermaciej> 2) could remove or further restrict APIs that you are not allowed to use for an anonymous request
  430. # [10:49] <othermaciej> for example, it could completely lack the ability to set the credentials flag
  431. # [10:49] <othermaciej> instead of having to specify that for the anon case, it is ignored or raises an exception
  432. # [10:49] <othermaciej> should lack the ability to set custom headers other than the whitelist too
  433. # [10:49] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  434. # [10:49] <othermaciej> but that wouldn't remove API, just add more restrictions
  435. # [10:49] <hsivonen> so wasn't Caja supposed to be magic that makes advertising JS safe on exising browsers?
  436. # [10:50] <hsivonen> and new Caja requires changes to the browser platform?
  437. # [10:50] <hsivonen> s/new/now/
  438. # [10:50] <othermaciej> it doesn't require changes
  439. # [10:50] <Hixie> annevk: JS constructors are objects
  440. # [10:50] <Hixie> annevk: so technically... :-P
  441. # [10:50] <othermaciej> right now if you wanted to use a Caja-like solution that allowed XHR, you would have to write an elaborate facade
  442. # [10:50] <othermaciej> with XMLHttpRequest(anon=true), the facade would be a lot simpler
  443. # [10:51] <Hixie> i'm sure if you were writing Caja you'd want control over the API anyway, so you'd write the facade either way
  444. # [10:51] <othermaciej> with AnonXMLHttpRequest(), it could be even simpler than that
  445. # [10:51] * hsivonen hasn't read all the UM stuff carefully
  446. # [10:53] * hsivonen wonders if it were easier for Google to tell advertisers to write Java to a tiny API and run a trusted copy of the GWT compiler with JSNI disabled for advertiser-originated code at Google's end
  447. # [10:53] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  448. # [10:53] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  449. # [10:53] <hsivonen> seems easier to lock down $ENTIRE_DIFFERENT_LANGUAGE compiled to JS than JS itself
  450. # [10:58] <annevk> boo, Nexus One is done by Vodafone in the Netherlands
  451. # [10:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: hat's what Caja is
  452. # [10:59] <Hixie> er
  453. # [10:59] <Hixie> that's, even
  454. # [10:59] <Hixie> annevk: isn't it an unlocked device?
  455. # [11:00] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-245-218.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  456. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh. Is Caja's $ENTIRE_DIFFERENT_LANGUAGE just a JS lookalike?
  457. # [11:03] * Parts: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  458. # [11:03] * jgraham doesn't like any solution with GWT as a component
  459. # [11:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-194-118.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  460. # [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah
  461. # [11:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: because the GWT toolkit is bad for the Web?
  462. # [11:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: the GWT *compiler* is cool
  463. # [11:04] <jgraham> Because GWT is bad for my sanity
  464. # [11:04] * hsivonen disapproves of the toolkit
  465. # [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think in fact it _is_ JS
  466. # [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: just running in a different context
  467. # [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: which is then compiled to run on the web context
  468. # [11:04] <jgraham> (specifically debugging problems in GWT generated code is bad for my sanity)
  469. # [11:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: I see
  470. # [11:05] <Hixie> doesn't GWT have a debugger?
  471. # [11:05] <jgraham> (which is a very self-centred viewpoint but there you have it)
  472. # [11:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: I thought you disapproved of Opera-unfriendliness of the browser-specific code paths in the toolkit
  473. # [11:05] <Hixie> oh you mean other people's code
  474. # [11:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: That too
  475. # [11:06] * hsivonen wishes someone wrote a competitive GUI toolkit for GWT without browser sniffing
  476. # [11:06] <jgraham> Although I don't really know how much that is endemic to the toolkit and how much is application-specific
  477. # [11:06] <hsivonen> my only use of GWT deliberately exorcises the toolkit and browser sniffing
  478. # [11:07] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  479. # [11:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: I thought building in Web Worst Practices in the toolkit was a major performance selling point
  480. # [11:07] <hsivonen> (loading code on a per-browser basis for 3 browsers)
  481. # [11:08] <hsivonen> (or maybe 4)
  482. # [11:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: I have never really investigated the sasuage factory, just picked apart some of the sasuages
  483. # [11:09] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  484. # [11:12] * hsivonen wonders if the V8 hidden classes feature manages to reidentify the Java classes
  485. # [11:13] <annevk> Hixie, ah yeah, there's that
  486. # [11:13] <annevk> Hixie, I read an article that just talked about Vodafone... didn't really think further (also, it's not out yet)
  487. # [11:14] <annevk> all this global market but local rules stuff makes me sad
  488. # [11:20] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  489. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Web5 exists already http://web5.w3.org/
  490. # [11:23] <annevk> Web4 too, by that measure :)
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  502. # [12:02] <annevk> omg, drama over nothing
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  508. # [12:16] <hsivonen> annevk: ?
  509. # [12:17] <annevk> over at the neighbors in #html-wg
  510. # [12:17] <hsivonen> hmm. the BBC is endin their Real Media feeds
  511. # [12:18] <hsivonen> I can't recall when I've last played Real Media
  512. # [12:18] <hsivonen> annevk: I see
  513. # [12:20] <annevk> I wish there were better text heuristic tools. We could feed them lots of IRC logs and email and make a whine-o-meter
  514. # [12:21] <hsivonen> I see a potential 20% time Google project
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  524. # [13:01] <zcorpan> using favicon in notifications makes svg favicons more useful
  525. # [13:08] * hsivonen wonders where the API docs are for making this UI show up: http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/Aa511497.notifications16%28en-us,MSDN.10%29.png
  526. # [13:09] <boogyman> hsivonen: unless you're building a desktop application, CSS3 can handle drop shadows... ask over in #css for more information
  527. # [13:11] <hsivonen> boogyman: I meant the Windows API for showing such a notification
  528. # [13:11] * Quits: matijsb (~matijsb@86.93.69.153) (Quit: matijsb)
  529. # [13:13] <boogyman> I am sure there is a #microsoft based channel that can solve your inquiry
  530. # [13:14] <annevk> prolly no need to tell hsivonen how to search :)
  531. # [13:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'm under the impression that there's no standard api for notifications in windows, since different apps seem to have different options and style for notifications
  532. # [13:15] <zcorpan> but then again i don't know anything about windows apis
  533. # [13:15] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.106.128)
  534. # [13:15] <Hixie> ok well i should sleep
  535. # [13:15] <Hixie> nn
  536. # [13:15] <boogyman> t/c Hixie
  537. # [13:16] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  538. # [13:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511497.aspx makes it look like there's an OS service
  539. # [13:18] <hsivonen> but they don't bother linking to the APIs
  540. # [13:22] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
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  543. # [13:56] <Philip`> hsivonen: Shell_NotifyIcon seems to be the OS-provided way
  544. # [13:57] <Philip`> (but then everyone implements their own different versions)
  545. # [13:57] <virtuelv> fwiw, on h.264 vs. Theora:
  546. # [13:57] <virtuelv> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/axhld/no_you_cant_do_that_with_h264/c0jwnjx
  547. # [13:59] <annevk> so does YouTube pay for all those people encoding their videos?
  548. # [13:59] <annevk> hmm
  549. # [13:59] <annevk> but yeah, non-free exchange standards suck
  550. # [13:59] <hsivonen> virtuelv: Freedom Zero FTW
  551. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  552. # [14:01] <hsivonen> annevk: a more interesting question is: does Blip.tv pay MPEG-LA when the users of the service run the H.264 encoders
  553. # [14:03] <hsivonen> I always think "legacy" when I see "DWORD"
  554. # [14:03] <virtuelv> hsivonen: a more interesting question is "does anyone who encodes h.264 have to pay"
  555. # [14:03] <virtuelv> the answer to that seems to be clear
  556. # [14:04] <virtuelv> and buying software to do so, doesn't buy you that freedom, it seems
  557. # [14:04] <virtuelv> I wonder what kind of license h.264 as encoded by my camera has
  558. # [14:04] <virtuelv> can I actually distribute those videos without re-encoding them?
  559. # [14:04] <meledin> For personal, non-commercial use? Probably
  560. # [14:05] <meledin> Commercially I think they use some form of "broadcast territory" notion when dealing with internet streaming
  561. # [14:05] <meledin> (Though what broadcast or territory means for the internet is conspicuously undefined)
  562. # [14:05] <hsivonen> the blip.tv ToS has nothing about "MPEG"
  563. # [14:06] <jgraham> So if I were to use my camera to make a promo video for some company, I might have to unexpectedly pay MPEG-LA?
  564. # [14:07] <hsivonen> my camera outputs Motion JPEG...
  565. # [14:07] <virtuelv> jgraham: that's my question
  566. # [14:07] <virtuelv> my camera does avchd
  567. # [14:08] <virtuelv> or even: If my camera allows such distribution, I'm screwed if I have to edit off-camera
  568. # [14:09] <virtuelv> what if I transcode from an original h.264 source to, say Ogg? Am I in trouble then too?
  569. # [14:10] <hsivonen> looks like nessy has published a paper about this: http://www.ifosslr.org/ifosslr/article/view/21/45
  570. # [14:10] <meledin> According to
  571. # [14:10] <meledin> eek
  572. # [14:11] <meledin> copy/paste fail
  573. # [14:11] <meledin> According to this pdf on mpegla's site they don't seem interested in collecting fees for anything other than codec manufacturers and broadcasters
  574. # [14:11] <meledin> (This doesn't imply that you are off the hook ofc, just that they aren't interested in small fries)
  575. # [14:12] <hsivonen> meledin: they count Web sites as "broadcasting"
  576. # [14:12] <meledin> Yeah, I said that
  577. # [14:12] <meledin> And they don't specify what a "broadcast market" is w.r.t. internet
  578. # [14:13] <meledin> However, for internet broadcast they've generously waived the royalty until 31 Dec this year
  579. # [14:13] <meledin> (And I use the word 'generously' very... generously)
  580. # [14:13] <hsivonen> hmm. It's February now
  581. # [14:14] <hsivonen> did the MPEG-LA publish the terms for 2011 by the end of January 2010?
  582. # [14:14] <jgraham> The temperature is above zero for the first time since mid December!
  583. # [14:14] * jgraham just noticed
  584. # [14:14] <gsnedders> WHAT!?
  585. # [14:15] <gsnedders> I go away and you get positive temperatures!?
  586. # [14:15] <annevk> could you leave Oslo before Monday gsnedders? :)
  587. # [14:15] <meledin> The MPEG-LA as far as I can see only shows a /summary/ of the license on their website
  588. # [14:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: http://www.mpegla.com/Lists/MPEG%20LA%20News%20List/Attachments/226/n-10-02-02.pdf
  589. # [14:15] <annevk> or actually, maybe you should stay another week so I can go skiing first :)
  590. # [14:16] <gsnedders> annevk: I leave in, uh, an hour and a half
  591. # [14:16] <meledin> oic
  592. # [14:16] <meledin> This is news, good catch jgraham
  593. # [14:17] <meledin> 'course, it doesn't say what happens 2017
  594. # [14:17] <annevk> gsnedders, maybe you should tell the weather forecast: http://www.google.com/search?q=weather+oslo
  595. # [14:19] <gsnedders> annevk: OK, I've told it.
  596. # [14:19] <meledin> Pfft
  597. # [14:19] <annevk> as a PDF
  598. # [14:19] <annevk> wtf
  599. # [14:19] <annevk> my hope for good news here is 17 feb
  600. # [14:20] <annevk> but I have a feeling that is way too early to tell
  601. # [14:20] <annevk> well, I'm pretty sure
  602. # [14:20] <meledin> Good news being?
  603. # [14:20] <annevk> google on2 deal
  604. # [14:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  605. # [14:23] <annevk> on http://www.google.com/intl/en/about.html Google Chrome is still in beta...
  606. # [14:23] <annevk> guess they don't look often at that page
  607. # [14:24] <meledin> Comparatively I guess there's not much traffic there, no.
  608. # [14:28] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  609. # [14:28] <zcorpan> i thought google is always in beta
  610. # [14:28] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  611. # [14:30] <Dashiva> Gmail has a pref to add back the 'beta' label
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  613. # [14:32] * hsivonen finds <div id="msg" />
  614. # [14:32] <hsivonen> in the V8 test suite
  615. # [14:42] * Joins: TabAtkins (~chatzilla@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net)
  616. # [14:43] <virtuelv> meledin: the point, I think, is «when do I become a broadcaster»?
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  620. # [14:52] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: is the empty string a valid IRI?
  621. # [14:54] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  622. # [14:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: it's a valid IRI reference (aka. relative URL), IIRC, but not a valid IRI (aka. absolute URL)
  623. # [14:56] <MikeSmithX> OK
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  627. # [15:02] <AryehGregor> MikeSmithX, I guess this breakage is related to the question you asked me before about whether there's any way to scrape the contents of sections from a wiki page?
  628. # [15:03] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: no, that was actually something different
  629. # [15:03] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  630. # [15:03] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.66)
  631. # [15:04] <AryehGregor> Well, the HTML output is really intended for human consumption, it's not exactly stable . . . for this use-case, if I'm getting what you're doing here, maybe you could just do http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Validator.nu_alt_advice&action=raw and split on "=="?
  632. # [15:04] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.106.128) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  633. # [15:05] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I was under the impression that a bunch of wikipedia scrapers used the (X)HTML? Wasn't that the reason you had to revert the HTML5 change at first?
  634. # [15:05] <AryehGregor> jgraham, well, yes. They break all the time too, and yell at us, and then we yell at them for screen-scraping and tell them to use the API. :)
  635. # [15:06] <AryehGregor> And then they tweak their bots instead to adapt to the new HTML output instead.
  636. # [15:06] <Philip`> You should emit a large number of random variations of HTML output
  637. # [15:06] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: yeah, maybe it could be worthwhile to take some to time to change the relevant parts of the validator.nu to use the actual MediaWiki API instead of the current scraping mechanism it uses, which is fairly fragile
  638. # [15:06] <Philip`> and carefully design is so that they can't reliably use regexps to skip over the randomness
  639. # [15:06] <AryehGregor> Philip`, it would be easier to just stop emitting well-formed XML, that would stop most of them.
  640. # [15:06] <AryehGregor> Well, yeah, then they'd use regexes.
  641. # [15:07] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: so what would be the right way to get the contents of the page in XML using the API?
  642. # [15:07] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I don't want to scrape wikitext
  643. # [15:07] <AryehGregor> MikeSmithX, what sort of XML do you want?
  644. # [15:07] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: but I would like to scrape a wikitext to HTML output without all the surrounding UI
  645. # [15:08] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_alt_advice?action=render
  646. # [15:08] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, you can also fetch wikitext and then feed it back as strings to api.php to get a parsed version.
  647. # [15:08] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: ooh. nice. thanks
  648. # [15:08] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: whatever form of XML output is the most guaranteed to not change again in the future
  649. # [15:09] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: is there a way to make the TOC go away, too?
  650. # [15:09] <AryehGregor> MikeSmithX, API formats are quite stable, as far as I know. That's really their whole purpose in life.
  651. # [15:09] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, well, you could remove it altogether by adding __NOTOC__ somewhere on the page. If you only want the bot to not get it, then not that I can think of, no.
  652. # [15:09] <MikeSmithX> good to hear, if that's an actual policy
  653. # [15:10] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: ok. thanks
  654. # [15:10] <AryehGregor> MikeSmithX, it is, although I don't actually work on the API at all, so I can't *personally* vouch for it. I've seen some breaking changes, but my understanding is they're very rare.
  655. # [15:10] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: some projects don't seem to understand so well that that's what APIs are for
  656. # [15:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: fwiw, I thought I fixed the scraper, then it seemed that I didn't, then I had switched context to Firefox bugs
  657. # [15:10] <MikeSmithX> twitter seems to change their API whenever the whim strikes them
  658. # [15:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: but I still intend to fix it
  659. # [15:11] <AryehGregor> http://wiki.whatwg.org/api.php?action=parse&text=''Some%20text%20to%20parse''&format=xml
  660. # [15:12] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  661. # [15:12] * hsivonen debugs again now
  662. # [15:13] <AryehGregor> This also might be useful: view-source:http://wiki.whatwg.org/api.php?action=parse&page=Validator.nu_alt_advice&format=xml&prop=sections
  663. # [15:13] <AryehGregor> Er, sans view-source:. :P
  664. # [15:13] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: np -- I guess it's not terrifically urgent. was just musing about whether it might be worthwhile to switch to using the mediawiki API as long as you're going in to touch the code
  665. # [15:14] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: that reminds me about what I had asked you before
  666. # [15:14] <AryehGregor> Right, this whole thing reminded me.
  667. # [15:15] <MikeSmithX> that gives you the section titles, but not the section content
  668. # [15:15] <AryehGregor> I'm sure that could be easily added.
  669. # [15:15] <AryehGregor> Since we're running trunk anyway, I could commit it and then just sync the WHATWG wiki to the latest revision.
  670. # [15:15] <MikeSmithX> I think what I had wanted to do before was, given a section title, return just the content of that section
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  672. # [15:16] <AryehGregor> Would it work to just have it return XML for all the sections on the page?
  673. # [15:16] <hsivonen> XML doesn't really help compared to HTML
  674. # [15:16] <AryehGregor> Like: http://wiki.whatwg.org/api.php?action=parse&page=Validator.nu_alt_advice&format=xml&prop=sectionshtml returning a list of all the sections' HTML wrapped in XML tags?
  675. # [15:17] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: that would make things harder
  676. # [15:17] <AryehGregor> So like this, maybe, but with each <s> containing the section's (XML-escaped) HTML: http://wiki.whatwg.org/api.php?action=parse&page=Validator.nu_alt_advice&format=xml&prop=sections
  677. # [15:17] <AryehGregor> Why? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you need it for?
  678. # [15:17] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: I guess I was thinking the API XML output would help if it were stable
  679. # [15:17] <MikeSmithX> it seems there are no guarantees of stability for the HTML
  680. # [15:18] <AryehGregor> What info are you getting out of the HTML?
  681. # [15:18] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: Validator.nu wants the HTML content as XHTML tree fragments
  682. # [15:18] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: the stuff between the headings
  683. # [15:18] <MikeSmithX> ah yeah
  684. # [15:18] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: so adding more XML just complicates things
  685. # [15:19] <AryehGregor> Okay, so that's what I suggested, except of course that you could have <div><h2>Foo</h2></div> and then it wouldn't be well-formed.
  686. # [15:19] <hsivonen> given that the HTML parser needs to be involved anyway
  687. # [15:19] <MikeSmithX> hmm, so what would be good would be addition of stable HTML output from the API
  688. # [15:20] <MikeSmithX> HTML as an API output format
  689. # [15:20] <AryehGregor> But I'm saying that instead of <h2>Foo</h2> <p>Bar</p> <h2>Baz</h2> <p>Quuz</p> you'd get <s name="Foo">&lt;p>Bar&lt;/p></s><s name="Baz">&lt;p>Quuz&lt;/p></s>
  690. # [15:20] <AryehGregor> Or something like that.
  691. # [15:20] <AryehGregor> I'm not clear what sort of HTML you want.
  692. # [15:21] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: something guaranteed to be free of changes like replacing <a name> instances with id attributes instead
  693. # [15:22] <AryehGregor> The "like" is the tricky bit here.
  694. # [15:22] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: the HTML format itself is fine as long as it doesn't change in structure
  695. # [15:22] <AryehGregor> What other changes would qualify?
  696. # [15:22] <AryehGregor> Maybe you'd want something like what we have now, but with just <h2> or such for headings and no fancy id's and edit links and such added?
  697. # [15:23] <AryehGregor> And TOCs and so forth?
  698. # [15:23] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: yeah, that sounds like something that would be generally useful
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  700. # [15:23] <AryehGregor> That might be a more intrusive change for us, it'd probably end up touching the actual parser and adding a new mode to it.
  701. # [15:23] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: any change that introduces or deletes markup between the end of a section and the heading for the next section
  702. # [15:23] <hsivonen> or that changes how section headings are marked up
  703. # [15:24] <hsivonen> or that introduces markup between the heading of a section and the section content
  704. # [15:24] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: so like the action=render output but without the edit links and TOC, as you say
  705. # [15:24] <AryehGregor> And without the added id's and divs and other weird stuff we put on the headers, I guess.
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  707. # [15:26] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: I think that stuff is mostly ignorable, but it would make the HTML cleaner to work with programatically for somebody going it to write a processing app for it
  708. # [15:26] <hsivonen> well, right now the code expects to see the spans and classes on the headings :-)
  709. # [15:26] <hsivonen> but a stable format would ideally have only <h2>
  710. # [15:26] <AryehGregor> HTML-fragments-in-XML (or other format of your choice) really seems like a simpler way to do this unless you've already written an app that expects to be dealing with the HTML headings.
  711. # [15:27] <AryehGregor> Which you have, of course.
  712. # [15:27] <AryehGregor> But for a new app it seems like a suboptimal approach.
  713. # [15:27] <MikeSmithX> that part could be changes
  714. # [15:27] <MikeSmithX> *changed
  715. # [15:27] <MikeSmithX> but HTML-fragments-in-XML would seem to me to be a good way
  716. # [15:27] <MikeSmithX> or HTML-fragments-whatever
  717. # [15:28] <MikeSmithX> or HTML-fragments-in-whatever
  718. # [15:28] <AryehGregor> The only question is, what if you have <div><h2>...</h2></div>?
  719. # [15:28] <MikeSmithX> ah, as you wrote -- "or other format of your choice"
  720. # [15:28] <hsivonen> HTML-fragments-in-whatever needs two parsers, so while it might be stable, it wouldn't be simpler
  721. # [15:28] <AryehGregor> It depends what you're using the fragments for. You might not need to actually parse them.
  722. # [15:29] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: V.nu is definitely going to parse them
  723. # [15:29] <AryehGregor> Also, if you're asking for XHTML-in-XML, it's only really one parser.
  724. # [15:29] <AryehGregor> Well, okay.
  725. # [15:29] <hsivonen> HTML in divs or XHTML in XML would work
  726. # [15:30] <AryehGregor> I'm still not clear what the expected behavior is if the contents of the section, taken by themselves, are not well-formed.
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  728. # [15:31] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: this stuff goes through an HTML5 parser that is set to coerce its output to be a well-formed infoset
  729. # [15:32] <AryehGregor> In your case, yes, but if someone is going to add a feature to MediaWiki, it's not just going to be for validator.nu. Most people don't use HTML5 parsers at this point.
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  732. # [15:33] <hsivonen> hmm. so it seems Eclipse is showing me one file and running another
  733. # [15:33] <hsivonen> that's why my debugging is going nowhere
  734. # [15:33] <MikeSmithX> well, for both validator.nu and in general, I think what would be ideal is what I mentioned - given a section title, return just the child HTML content of that section
  735. # [15:33] <AryehGregor> There are two options for what sort of HTML to output: 1) whatever happens to lie between the section tags in the actual page, and 2) what you get by running the section's wikitext through the parser (which will strip mismatched tags and such).
  736. # [15:34] <AryehGregor> (2) seems more sensible to me if you're looking at each section by itself.
  737. # [15:34] <hsivonen> #2
  738. # [15:35] <AryehGregor> MikeSmithX, the easiest way to do that would just be to return all the page's sections at once, surely? You probably want more than one section from the page anyway. You can get it wrapped in JSON or YAML or whatnot instead of XML if you want an easier-to-parse wrapper format.
  739. # [15:35] <AryehGregor> Also, there can be two sections with the same name on the page.
  740. # [15:36] <MikeSmithX> ah
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  743. # [15:36] <AryehGregor> There can even be two sections with the same id if you do something tricky like == Foo == == Foo == == Foo 2 ==, although we usually manage to avoid that.
  744. # [15:37] <AryehGregor> (that particular bug would be pretty easy to fix, but there are probably more important things to do)
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  747. # [15:41] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_alt_advice?action=render is fine as long as random UI doesn't start appearing there
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  749. # [15:42] <AryehGregor> That's the HTML output meant for browsers, it's not meant for machine parsing and isn't guaranteed to be stable at all.
  750. # [15:42] <AryehGregor> It's very likely that the exact format of the headings will be adjusted again in the future, it's happened multiple times before.
  751. # [15:43] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: I suppose for the case of multiple sections with the same title, the simple thing to do would be to just have the API return the contents of all the sections (each just appended after the other in the output)
  752. # [15:43] <AryehGregor> MikeSmithX, what's wrong with returning all the sections on the page with some thin wrapper in the format of your choice?
  753. # [15:45] * Philip` wonders if this wiki HTML output parsing thing is really solving the right problem
  754. # [15:45] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: nothing wrong, but it would just be good to have an HTML wrapper be one of the available formats
  755. # [15:45] <Philip`> Wouldn't it be better if the original input data was in a more easily machine-readable format?
  756. # [15:45] <AryehGregor> Philip`, yes, but then we have millions of pages that need to be reformatted somehow, not to mention countless editors who've gotten used to the current wikitext format.
  757. # [15:46] <AryehGregor> It's doable, but it would be a huge change given the need for backward compatibility.
  758. # [15:46] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I mean for validator.nu, not for Wikipedia :-p
  759. # [15:46] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  760. # [15:46] * hsivonen emerges from the classpath battle victoriously
  761. # [15:46] * Philip` wouldn't willing suggest rewriting the entire content of Wikipedia
  762. # [15:46] <Philip`> *willingly
  763. # [15:46] <AryehGregor> You mean, like, tell people to make that specific page in some validator.nu-specific format instead of wikitext?
  764. # [15:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: You can never win
  765. # [15:46] <AryehGregor> That would make a lot of sense.
  766. # [15:47] <hsivonen> anyway, fixing the scraper was simple
  767. # [15:47] <hsivonen> the hard part was that the source code and the running code didn't agree
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  769. # [15:47] <Philip`> AryehGregor: If I haven't misfollowed the conversation, I expect it's for any validators that want to use the normative data currently encoded in the wiki, not just validator.nu
  770. # [15:48] <Philip`> but they'd all have basically the same requirements so that's okay
  771. # [15:48] <AryehGregor> Well, the point is the same, surely.
  772. # [15:49] <Philip`> Surely it wouldn't be hard to find someone who knows Ruby on Rails and can type in two lines of code to set up a publicly-editable structured database for all these registries and lists
  773. # [15:49] <Philip`> with an HTML view so people can check the data makes sense, and an XML/JSON view for machines
  774. # [15:50] <hsivonen> finally running the deployment script
  775. # [15:55] <MikeSmithX> Philip`: yeah, agreed. yet that's not happened so far, for whatever reason
  776. # [15:56] <Philip`> AryehGregor: With the proposed RDFa changes in MediaWiki, does anything prevent people writing <p xmlns:foo="http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace"> and getting it echoed out through the XML API and causing a WF error?
  777. # [15:56] <MikeSmithX> maybe the hoopla about the link registry can help motivate us to get something like that set up for that, and the reusable for the existing stuff
  778. # [15:57] <MikeSmithX> (above comment was just about the structured-database idea)
  779. # [15:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: deployed! <figcaption> validates. thank you.
  780. # [15:58] <MikeSmithX> cool
  781. # [15:58] <MikeSmithX> thanks man
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  785. # [16:01] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to have the reverse of Hixie's data URL kitchen?
  786. # [16:02] <annevk> view source?
  787. # [16:02] <annevk> i.e. the adress bar
  788. # [16:05] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: btw, about the earlier build problem, it seems like adding a call to prepareLocalEntityJar() at the beginning of buildAll() might prevent that
  789. # [16:06] <Lachy> hsivonen, if you want an online version, see http://dean.edwards.name/weblog/2005/06/base64-ie/
  790. # [16:06] <Lachy> that's basically a data: URL proxy built for IE
  791. # [16:06] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: let me know if you think we should add that to build.py
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  793. # [16:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: it seems like a useful addition
  794. # [16:16] <hsivonen> annevk: good point (view source)
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  799. # [16:21] <Dashiva> Return of the ogg permathread(?)
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  807. # [16:45] <Philip`> "Apple will be held accountable by an army of bloggers" - they should face off against the army of bloggers that unequivocally praise everything Apple does, in an epic battle to decide the matter once and for all
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  809. # [16:46] <Dashiva> Battle of the Blogs
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  814. # [16:56] <boblet> MikeSmithX: hey Mike, are you planning to do your validator speech in 2 weeks in Japanese?
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  824. # [17:13] <boblet> MikeSmithX: you there?
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  826. # [17:15] <boblet> Semantic q: It’s fairly common to have a citation note at the end of a blockquote, however the spec mentions the content inside the blockquote must be quoted…
  827. # [17:16] <boblet> Since small can be used for attribution, would adding <small>(<cite>book title, page number</cide>)</small> at the end of a blockquote be kosher?
  828. # [17:17] <boblet> (great to see UAs should expose citation links btw)
  829. # [17:17] * boblet wonders what the hell the cide element does
  830. # [17:18] <boogyman> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=html5+cide
  831. # [17:21] <boblet> boogyman: heh, that should prolly be lmstfy.com (except the domain is already taken—no speling help for me)
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  834. # [17:22] <boogyman> s?
  835. # [17:23] <boblet> boogyman: for spell (it was a typo)
  836. # [17:24] <boblet> boogyman: unless there really is a <cide> element I’m unaware of?
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  838. # [17:25] <boogyman> I haven't had a chance to read the HTML5 specification so I am not sure. I do know there is a CITE element though
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  840. # [17:26] <boblet> boogyman: hehehe. np, forget I typed (just for the record there’s no cide element btw ;-)
  841. # [17:29] <boblet> hrm. will ask again when more ppl are awake. nn
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  1165. # [21:50] <annevk> wow, news reporting is somewhat shitty
  1166. # [21:51] <roc> you've only just noticed?
  1167. # [21:51] <annevk> article talks about http://dev.chromium.org/chromium-os/user-experience/form-factors/tablet and mentions it's not a Google operated site so just speculation what Google might do ... blah blah
  1168. # [21:52] <annevk> one search for the name mentioned on that page reveals he's the lead UI for Chrome
  1169. # [21:52] * Quits: cedric_ (~cedric@112.199.145.105) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  1170. # [21:52] <annevk> at Google
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  1183. # [22:04] * jwalden wonders how often html5.validator.nu is updated, given that figcaption happened last Friday, h.v.n "still" didn't reflect figcaption a day or so ago, and it does now
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  1185. # [22:05] <jgraham> jwalden: hsivonen pushed it today (obviously). I guess how often it is updated depends on how busy he is rewriting your parser :)
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  1209. # [22:32] <annevk> Adobe is getting desperate, lol, http://twitter.com/bobspace/status/8603836976
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  1237. # [23:10] * jwalden is unsure whether or not <figcaption> is growing on him, or at least gradually growing less cringe-inducing
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  1242. # [23:14] <jgraham> annevk: No, really?
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  1256. # [23:31] <quuxman> so what i the lesser of two "evils": laying out HTML with table tags or with JavaScript?
  1257. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> <table>
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  1259. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> But neither is a good solution. Do it properly.
  1260. # [23:32] <Hixie> depends on the JS
  1261. # [23:33] <jgraham> Depends on the content
  1262. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> I say <table> just because I use it myself (a single two-element layout table to do columns).
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  1265. # [23:35] <quuxman> TabAtkins: yes, tables are by far the most sane way to layout things in columns and center things vertically, and sometimes horizontally
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  1267. # [23:35] <Hixie> it's definitely better to go from a single-page layout to a two-column layout done in CSS dynamically using JS, than to use tables, imho
  1268. # [23:35] <quuxman> I'm aware there are CSS hacks to do all of these things, but they're horrific and extremely time consuming
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  1270. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> Nah, for centering and most layout tasks I use CSS properly.
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  1272. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> It's just the major two-column layout happens to have requirements that are perfectly met by tables, and very badly met by CSS.
  1273. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> But it's part of my mission to fix that. ^_^
  1274. # [23:38] <quuxman> Hixie: Currently I'm using JavaScript for a couple layout things, but I'm realizing if I use tables I could relatively easily make the site pretty usable without JavaScript
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  1279. # [23:42] <annevk> quuxman, yay, more Opera invasion of #whatwg
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  1285. # [23:54] <annevk> oh wait, pablo uses the nick quuxbaz, nm
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  1289. # Session Close: Thu Feb 04 00:00:01 2010

The end :)