/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-08 / end

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  83. # [06:58] <Hixie> http://www.precentral.net/html5-editors-draft-hits-w3c-flash-doesnt-break-sweat
  84. # [06:58] <Hixie> "The HTML5 specification came another step closer to becoming a Web standard today, as the first editors draft of the technology was released to the World Wide Web Consortium."
  85. # [06:58] <Hixie> Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010
  86. # [06:58] <Hixie> ...
  87. # [06:58] <Hixie> first? o_O
  88. # [06:58] <Dashiva> Released _to_
  89. # [06:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: wait, what?
  90. # [07:00] <Hixie> indeed
  91. # [07:01] <othermaciej> that might even qualify as the most astonishing sentence I've read all weekend
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  94. # [07:03] <Dashiva> Is the file extension really going to be .sandboxed?
  95. # [07:04] <Hixie> Dashiva: URIs don't have file extensions
  96. # [07:06] <Dashiva> Looking at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/iana.html#text-html-sandboxed
  97. # [07:13] <Hixie> ah well yeah the IANA asks for a filename for some reason
  98. # [07:13] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2010Feb/0082.html is pretty fantastic
  99. # [07:14] <Hixie> especially the baseless accusation in sentence two of paragraph one
  100. # [07:14] <Dashiva> And its fantasticness will be amplified in the minds of all the non-members who can only imagine what it says :)
  101. # [07:14] <Hixie> i also love the way the author of that thread always makes sure to take their complaints out of the public eye
  102. # [07:15] <Hixie> it's like they realise that they'd be lambasted if they made that kind of accusation in public
  103. # [07:15] <Dashiva> That's what formal process is for, avoiding accusations based on common sense
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  105. # [07:15] <Dashiva> Good morning, zcorpan
  106. # [07:17] <zcorpan> good morning Dashiva
  107. # [07:17] <zcorpan> had a good weekend?
  108. # [07:18] <Dashiva> I have no complaints, at least :)
  109. # [07:19] <zcorpan> great
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  112. # [07:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: I actually hadn't read that message yet, was trying to take some time off from that thread
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  114. # [07:22] <Hixie> don't blame you
  115. # [07:23] <Hixie> i noticed that i was cc'ed on a later w3c-archive thread so i figured i should check if anything else had been going on
  116. # [07:23] <Hixie> imagine my surprise!
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  132. # [08:03] <gsnedders> w3c-archive? Oh great.
  133. # [08:03] <gsnedders> You can tell things are going well when they end up _there_.
  134. # [08:03] <gsnedders> (w00t for MO lists)
  135. # [08:06] <othermaciej> gsnedders: are you empowered to see MO content?
  136. # [08:06] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I'm an Opera rep, so yes
  137. # [08:07] <othermaciej> it's interesting because almost all the content on that list is from sysbot
  138. # [08:07] <gsnedders> Yeah, it always surprises me how scarce content is there
  139. # [08:08] <gsnedders> (excluding sysbot)
  140. # [08:17] <abarth> Hixie: is http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-December/024335.html a bug in the spec? i wasn't sure if i read it right
  141. # [08:18] <Hixie> looks like a bug
  142. # [08:18] <Hixie> haven't fixed it yet
  143. # [08:18] <Hixie> it's on the pile
  144. # [08:18] <abarth> ok, thanks
  145. # [08:19] <othermaciej> are PUT and DELETE only allowed as methods for same-origin form actions in the first place?
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  147. # [08:19] <abarth> yes, but the spec doesn't seem to stop redirects
  148. # [08:19] <abarth> 307
  149. # [08:19] <othermaciej> that does sound like it would subvert the requirement
  150. # [08:20] <abarth> i don't think anyone implements that currently
  151. # [08:20] <abarth> but it's probably good to fix :)
  152. # [08:22] <othermaciej> now here's something that gives me hope: http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/how-the-letterman-oprah-leno-super-bowl-ad-came-together/
  153. # [08:22] <othermaciej> if Jay Leno and David Letterman can get along, maybe we can publish a technical specification without killing each other
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  156. # [08:28] <gsnedders> Javascript URIs behave as if they're same-origin, right?
  157. # [08:32] <zcorpan> hmm, webkit linebreaks (if necessary) for <nobr>foooo<wbr>baaaaar</nobr>
  158. # [08:32] <zcorpan> but firefox doesn't
  159. # [08:33] <zcorpan> gsnedders: depends on where you use javascript urls
  160. # [08:33] <gsnedders> zcorpan: iframe@src
  161. # [08:33] <zcorpan> yep
  162. # [08:33] <zcorpan> iirc
  163. # [08:34] <nessy> othermaciej - I've seen no killing yet, just loud animals - and they are everywhere ;)
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  165. # [08:41] <hsivonen> hmm. so it looks like one of the threads on public-html make a comeback from w3c-archive
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  167. # [08:43] <hsivonen> I think I don't like the pattern of taking HTML WG threads into the Member archive space
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  169. # [08:44] <hsivonen> anyway, I recommend that people who do have Member access check out what kind of stuff gets taken off-public-html in a way that cannot stay public in www-archive but doesn't go totally person-to-person, either
  170. # [08:45] <gsnedders> Things vanishing into an effective black-hole seems really bad
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  187. # [09:29] <si-p> jgraham: thanks for the reply - I'm using 0.11, tip of the default branch from https://html5lib.googlecode.com/hg/
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  189. # [09:32] <si-p> jgraham: just installed to a fresh environment and the first problem I get is http://paste.pocoo.org/show/175252/
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  191. # [09:33] <si-p> jgraham: this issue has been mentioned on the mailing list so I altered the code to catch the ValueError exception and continue
  192. # [09:33] <si-p> jgraham: and the tests complete, but lots of errors
  193. # [09:35] <gsnedders> si-p: 0.90 should be tip…
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  195. # [09:36] <gsnedders> si-p: That error is caused by SimpleJSON being stricter than the spec
  196. # [09:37] <si-p> gsnedders: thanks, I'll try 0.9
  197. # [09:39] <gsnedders> si-p: What revision is tip at for you?
  198. # [09:40] <gsnedders> si-p: And what sort of errors are you getting?
  199. # [09:42] <si-p> gsnedders: tip is 1512:f4ce29fce65f
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  201. # [09:43] <gsnedders> OK, that's what it should be
  202. # [09:43] <gsnedders> Which is identical to 0.90 release.
  203. # [09:43] <si-p> are there any tests for 0.9?
  204. # [09:43] <gsnedders> 0.9 != 0.90
  205. # [09:44] <si-p> oh
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  207. # [09:50] <si-p> gsnedders: is the tip of the default branch the code I should be using?
  208. # [09:50] <gsnedders> Yeah
  209. # [09:50] <si-p> gsnedders: I'm not the best with mercurial
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  211. # [09:51] <si-p> ok and the SimpleJSON errors are expected?
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  213. # [09:52] <gsnedders> Yeah
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  234. # [10:45] <si-p> gsnedders, jgraham: tests are passing ok now, thanks
  235. # [10:45] <si-p> the reason for running the tests was because I had a parse error on a html file, but that looks to have cleared up also
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  243. # [11:18] * Hixie tries to deal with some feedback from bz about <object>, type sniffing, MIME types, and so forth, and goes cross-eyed trying to work out what the algorithm should be
  244. # [11:20] <hsivonen> mxr ftw
  245. # [11:21] <zcorpan> 1. Go to step 2 (fallback).
  246. # [11:22] <zcorpan> apparently webkit takes type information for <object> from <param name=type>
  247. # [11:26] <Hixie> yeah i'm not even going to that level of wackiness
  248. # [11:27] <Hixie> my whiteboard is already full just with MIME vs type vs sniffing vs extension
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  251. # [11:30] <zcorpan> we might have to copy webkit on that for compat with banks that use java
  252. # [11:30] <Hixie> if you do, file a bug
  253. # [11:31] <Hixie> in the meantime, file a bug on webkit to remove their magic :-)
  254. # [11:31] <zcorpan> we'll try to figure out what to do first
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  261. # [12:07] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/temp
  262. # [12:07] <Hixie> I think that's what I have to spec.
  263. # [12:07] <Hixie> to replace the "Determine the resource type, as follows" algorithm
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  281. # [13:36] <benjoffe> The webstorage spec appears ambiguous: http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/, consider the following:
  282. # [13:36] <benjoffe> storage.setItem("0", "foo");
  283. # [13:36] <benjoffe> alert(storage[0]);
  284. # [13:37] <Hixie> webidl defines the precedence order
  285. # [13:41] * Joins: Rik|work (~Rik|work@fw01d.skyrock.net)
  286. # [13:46] <si-p> gsnedders: any idea why I get this_should_never_appear_publicly element in the tree after parsing?
  287. # [13:46] <gsnedders> If that's the element I think it is, because I created a bug.
  288. # [13:47] <gsnedders> Oh, no, not my bug.
  289. # [13:47] <gsnedders> Um, what's the input? File a bug on that.
  290. # [13:49] <si-p> tostring(html5lib.parse('<html></html>', treebuilder="lxml"))
  291. # [13:49] <si-p> produces
  292. # [13:49] <si-p> '<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/loose.dtd">\n<html:html xmlns:html="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><body><this_should_never_appear_publicly/></body><html:head/><html:body/></html:html>
  293. # [13:50] <gsnedders> Um, that's bad.
  294. # [13:50] <Philip`> What version of lxml?
  295. # [13:51] <si-p> dont understand how the tests are passing
  296. # [13:51] * jgraham has never seen that
  297. # [13:51] <gsnedders> I don't understand how that element can get there
  298. # [13:51] <si-p> lxml-2.3dev-py2.6-linux-i686.egg
  299. # [13:52] <Philip`> What is tostring?
  300. # [13:52] <benjoffe> Hixie: are you sure it is defined? "If an object implements more than one interface that defines a given special operation, then it is undefined which (if any) special operation is invoked."
  301. # [13:52] <si-p> lxml.etree.tostring
  302. # [13:53] <Philip`> Ah
  303. # [13:53] <Philip`> I get '<html:html xmlns:html="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><html:head/><html:body/></html:html>'
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  305. # [13:53] <Philip`> with lxml 2.2.2, I think
  306. # [13:54] <si-p> this isn't a lxml problem though is it?
  307. # [13:54] <Philip`> I'd presume it's a change in lxml's behaviour
  308. # [13:55] <Hixie> benjoffe: there's only one interface involved here though right?
  309. # [13:55] <jgraham> I get the right output with lxml 2.2.4
  310. # [13:55] <Philip`> (Not necessarily lxml's problem - html5lib might be relying on non-guaranteed behaviour here)
  311. # [13:55] <jgraham> So it seems like a 2.3 change
  312. # [13:55] <Philip`> (although arguably it's lxml's problem that html5lib has to rely on non-guaranteed behaviour)
  313. # [13:56] <benjoffe> Hixie: right, i just can't see where in webidl that is actually defined
  314. # [13:58] * jgraham has no recollection of why that magic tag has to be inserted
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  316. # [13:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: Creating a DOCTYPE is impossible in lxml apart from at parse-time
  317. # [14:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, I remember that much
  318. # [14:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: And to parse anything you need a well-formed XML document, which requires a root element
  319. # [14:02] <gsnedders> The point of calling it that and not "html" is to make sure the tag name is correctly changed
  320. # [14:02] <Hixie> benjoffe: in the [Get] definition, probably.
  321. # [14:03] <Hixie> benjoffe: if it's not defined, see the status section of the webidl spec for where to send comments
  322. # [14:03] <Hixie> so that we can get it defined :-)
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  325. # [14:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: But won't lxml complain about the mismatch between <!doctype html> and the root element name?
  326. # [14:05] <jgraham> (well obviously it didn't, but they are supposed to match, no)
  327. # [14:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: no, that's a validity constraint, not a well-formedness constraint
  328. # [14:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: It only enforces valdiity constraints if you enable them.
  329. # [14:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: But the whole point of doing things like this was to get the right information into the dtd object
  330. # [14:06] <jgraham> Do we actually get that right now?
  331. # [14:07] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-49-173-38.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  332. # [14:07] <gsnedders> AFAIK yes
  333. # [14:07] <jgraham> it looks like we at least partially do
  334. # [14:07] <jgraham> in 2.2.x at least
  335. # [14:09] <si-p> is the workaround to downgrade lxml?
  336. # [14:09] <jgraham> si-p: Hopefully that will work
  337. # [14:10] <si-p> ok thanks
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  339. # [14:11] <gsnedders> What I really don't get is how it ends up as a child of body
  340. # [14:13] <si-p> gsnedders: it's done in one of the parse phases
  341. # [14:14] <gsnedders> None should move the root element, ever
  342. # [14:17] <annevk> -> in Oslo
  343. # [14:17] <gsnedders> Now that I've run away :P
  344. # [14:20] <annevk> seemed better that way
  345. # [14:27] <si-p> yeah, downgrading lxml sorts it
  346. # [14:28] <jgraham> si-p: Could you file a bug please? I will try to investigate
  347. # [14:30] <si-p> jgraham: on code.google.com?
  348. # [14:30] <jgraham> si-p: Yes
  349. # [14:30] <si-p> jgraham: ok
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  351. # [14:37] <jgraham> si-p: Thanks
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  356. # [14:52] <si-p> jgraham: done, issue 136 :)
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  358. # [15:14] <annevk> is anyone actually ever using the filtering options HTML5 tracker provides?
  359. # [15:14] <annevk> I personally just find the color coding useful but the form feels like clutter
  360. # [15:18] <hsivonen> annevk: I've sometimes used the tools and conformance checker filters
  361. # [15:19] <hsivonen> annevk: though more often using my forked script than your instance
  362. # [15:20] <annevk> I'm going to comment it out and see who starts yelling
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  366. # [15:27] <annevk> cleaned up http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker a little bit
  367. # [15:27] <annevk> arguably it should be called Web Applications 1.0 Revision Tracker but this seems good enough
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  369. # [15:44] <hsivonen> grrr. I had forgotten Java has a 2^16 byte limit for the size of the static initializer
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  383. # [16:49] <TabAtkins> Does this page die with a character encoding error on line 2 for any of you? www.weitz.de/hunchentoot
  384. # [16:49] <TabAtkins> It does for me in Chrome/Win if I force it to interpret as utf-8
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  392. # [17:11] <daedb> TabAtkins: It dies on line 150 for me (with forced utf-8).
  393. # [17:11] <TabAtkins> How bizarre.
  394. # [17:11] <daedb> That's in Opera/win, btw
  395. # [17:13] * Quits: harig (~harig@202.164.55.82) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  396. # [17:13] <annevk> why bizarre?
  397. # [17:15] <annevk> line 150 has "í" as character which will clearly fail your XML if you try to decode it using UTF-8
  398. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> Ah, right. My eye passed over that.
  399. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> Wondering why I get an error on line 2, on the ? that ends the PI.
  400. # [17:16] <TabAtkins> Someone else gets an error on line 2 with the opening ?.
  401. # [17:16] <annevk> maybe because the encoding label is considered wrong?
  402. # [17:17] <annevk> browsers should disable the character menu for anything but text/plain and text/html I think
  403. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> Oddly enough, Firefox claims it's interpreting the page as utf-8, but doesn't die.
  404. # [17:19] <annevk> does that version of Firefox fail Acid3?
  405. # [17:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I only get a 92 on Acid3.
  406. # [17:20] <annevk> pre-Acid3 browsers have "broken" XML pipelines
  407. # [17:20] <TabAtkins> This is current 3.6, though.
  408. # [17:20] <annevk> the part that does character decoding is not aware of XML restrictions; Acid3 got that aligned with the XML spec
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  417. # [17:59] <si-p> jgraham: hmm, looks like this lxml/html5lib issue may be my fault
  418. # [17:59] <si-p> jgraham: at the bottom of one of my modules I'd set the default parser for lxml
  419. # [17:59] <si-p> jgraham: and this seems to have been causing the issue
  420. # [18:00] <si-p> jgraham: still looking at it, but I may close the bug report
  421. # [18:01] <annevk> hmm
  422. # [18:01] <annevk> maybe I can use HTML5 fetch in XMLHttpRequest after all
  423. # [18:01] <annevk> if I use the "pause" concept for the sync case
  424. # [18:01] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  425. # [18:04] <annevk> it would be nice since fetch defines a lot of details
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  427. # [18:05] * annevk hopes Hixie can answer the question ^^
  428. # [18:06] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  429. # [18:06] * gsnedders finds yet another ECMAScript spec bug
  430. # [18:07] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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  433. # [18:08] <gsnedders> This is somewhat depressing.
  434. # [18:09] <gsnedders> I look at the spec for around ten minutes and find four places that are wrong.
  435. # [18:09] <gsnedders> (Where wrong is defined as disagreeing with all implementations in a way that implementations cannot realisitically change)
  436. # [18:09] <Dashiva> es3 or es5?
  437. # [18:09] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Client Quit)
  438. # [18:10] <gsnedders> Dashiva: es5
  439. # [18:10] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Though these issues seem to exist in ES3 too
  440. # [18:11] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@157.22.22.46)
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  442. # [18:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: You have been looking for more than 10 minutes :)
  443. # [18:12] <jgraham> (but agreed it is depressing)
  444. # [18:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: Time flies when you're having fun!
  445. # [18:13] <gsnedders> (I must be a sick masochistic lion…)
  446. # [18:15] <jgraham> That's a song from the Wizard of Oz, right?
  447. # [18:17] <gsnedders> What is?
  448. # [18:17] <jgraham> "I must be a sick masochistic lion"
  449. # [18:17] <gsnedders> No
  450. # [18:17] <jgraham> I realise
  451. # [18:17] <jgraham> It was funny
  452. # [18:17] <jgraham> In my mind
  453. # [18:18] <gsnedders> Um, OK
  454. # [18:18] <gsnedders> You're weird.
  455. # [18:18] <gsnedders> Though you are a far better cook than I.
  456. # [18:18] <jgraham> Are you asking for food?
  457. # [18:18] <annevk> food
  458. # [18:19] <jgraham> , glorious food
  459. # [18:19] <gsnedders> No, I have food at home I need to cook and eat myself.
  460. # [18:19] <gsnedders> I don't need feeding, Mummy.
  461. # [18:19] <zcorpan> i can has a girlfriend who makes me food
  462. # [18:19] <annevk> oh thy, glorious food, gimme some, more
  463. # [18:20] * gsnedders notes around three people here will get the joke of calling jgraham that
  464. # [18:20] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Ah, so that's what I'm missing.
  465. # [18:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, distance relationships are bad for that
  466. # [18:21] <jgraham> Although they can always phone and order you takeaway
  467. # [18:22] <jgraham> (note: untested in actual relationship. May lead to breakup and/or death)
  468. # [18:22] <si-p> is is possible to replace the element class that gets created by the tree builder?
  469. # [18:22] <zcorpan> i wonder if the margin boxes can include edit frequency in an automated way
  470. # [18:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hmm, maybe I guess I ought not alpha test that
  471. # [18:23] <annevk> zcorpan, I integrated some of your changes btw
  472. # [18:23] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@2620:0:1082:1000:21d:9ff:fe0a:85f) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  473. # [18:23] <zcorpan> annevk: cool
  474. # [18:23] <gsnedders> si-p: Not without hacking it, AFAIK
  475. # [18:23] <annevk> zcorpan, I didn't integrate the back/forward stuff because it's not first/last proof
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  477. # [18:23] <zcorpan> annevk: i know it's not, but i figured it didn't really matter much
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  479. # [18:24] <zcorpan> at least i was too lazy to implement checks :)
  480. # [18:25] <zcorpan> the back/forward thing was what i actually wanted, though
  481. # [18:25] <si-p> gsnedders: ok - thinking about trying to replace TreeBuilder.elementClass with my own
  482. # [18:25] <annevk> lolz
  483. # [18:25] <annevk> ok
  484. # [18:25] <annevk> i'll have another look
  485. # [18:25] <annevk> the back/forward stuff was not mentioned in your changelog so I thought it mattered the least
  486. # [18:26] <zcorpan> oh, i guess i suck at writing checkin comments
  487. # [18:26] <si-p> gsnedders: probably leave that for another day - thanks for your help btw
  488. # [18:30] <annevk> guess I have to do some more checking
  489. # [18:30] <annevk> your code generates server errors
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  491. # [18:36] <zcorpan> snap
  492. # [18:36] <zcorpan> did you remove the filter thing?
  493. # [18:43] <annevk> i commented it out
  494. # [18:43] <annevk> next/previous added
  495. # [18:44] <annevk> do you want it back?
  496. # [18:44] <annevk> once Opera 10.5 ships with localStorage I'm going to remove this cookie mess
  497. # [18:45] <annevk> maybe we could move filters back in as well as long as we make them persistent
  498. # [18:45] <zcorpan> yes please :) i can tweak the style to make it less ugly
  499. # [18:46] <zcorpan> we could move to localStorage now
  500. # [18:46] <annevk> <form> is no longer a required container right?
  501. # [18:46] <annevk> zcorpan, we could, but that'd be annoying for me...
  502. # [18:46] <zcorpan> the form can submit, though
  503. # [18:47] <zcorpan> oh there are two forms
  504. # [18:47] <annevk> yup
  505. # [18:47] <annevk> filters are back in
  506. # [18:48] <zcorpan> just for scripting convenience it seems
  507. # [18:48] <zcorpan> thanks
  508. # [18:49] <zcorpan> form { margin:0; font-size:smaller }
  509. # [18:49] <zcorpan> fieldset { border:none; padding:0 }
  510. # [18:49] <zcorpan> legend { padding:0; font-weight:bold }
  511. # [18:49] <zcorpan> form > fieldset > p { margin:0 }
  512. # [18:49] <annevk> just realized the scripting stuff
  513. # [18:49] <annevk> is that just for the first form?
  514. # [18:49] <zcorpan> styling for both
  515. # [18:50] <zcorpan> form > fieldset > p could be replaced with form p
  516. # [18:51] <zcorpan> foodz
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  518. # [18:51] <annevk> that's ugly
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  520. # [18:52] <annevk> fieldset also has margin btw
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  522. # [18:59] <annevk> zcorpan, when you get back it would be useful to know which parts of the filter you are using
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  533. # [19:43] <Dashiva> Anyone know the reason input type=range,checkbox,radio,color can't be readonly?
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  545. # [20:08] <zcorpan> annevk: i use show editorial content
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  564. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Does Opera not support Unicode characters in IDs? Test case: <!doctype html><meta charset="utf8"><a href="#ל">Click me</a><a href="#%D7%9C">Click me too</a><div style="margin:100em 0" id="ל">Do you get here?</div>
  565. # [20:39] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-xwkxavvjkiaxdfsr)
  566. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Neither link works in Opera 10.10. Both work in Firefox, Chrome, and IE6.
  567. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Actually, only the first link seems to work in IE6.
  568. # [20:43] <Dashiva> First seems to work here
  569. # [20:44] <Dashiva> Not in 10.10, though
  570. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> But it works in some other version?
  571. # [20:44] <Dashiva> 10.5
  572. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> I seem to recall it worked in 9.x when I tested it earlier.
  573. # [20:45] * Joins: Michelangelo (~Michelang@93-41-33-46.ip79.fastwebnet.it)
  574. # [20:45] <Dashiva> Maybe it's a bidi bug :)
  575. # [20:45] * Joins: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@82.113.121.136)
  576. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Seems unlikely.
  577. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> I should try with some LTR character, though, yeah.
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  579. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> I get the same behavior on 9.64.
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  581. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> The first link does work in 10.50, though, good.
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  585. # [21:00] <zcorpan> maybe it's the url escaping thing
  586. # [21:00] <zcorpan> i seem to recall name="foo%20bar" matching #foo%20bar
  587. # [21:04] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@nat/mozilla/x-mapjkhcpqqgdokyt)
  588. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> I had hoped that we could ditch horrible URLs like <http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/קארים_בנזמה#.D7.A0.D7.91.D7.97.D7.A8.D7.AA_.D7.9C.D7.90.D7.95.D7.9E.D7.99.D7.AA>. Oh well, maybe soon!
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  591. # [21:22] <zcorpan> does it work to use characters with no escaping?
  592. # [21:23] <zcorpan> oh maybe you tried that
  593. # [21:24] <Dashiva> JF's explanation of WCAG1 vs WCAG2 is somewhat amusing. Because the standard is "locked down", the response was to move all the useful content of the standard elsewhere.
  594. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> I did it with no escaping anywhere, that's the only way it seems to work in IE6.
  595. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, unfortunately, that might be a real reflection on insane government agencies and such that take years to adapt to the release of new standards.
  596. # [21:25] <zcorpan> seems like no escaping works but with escaping doesn't, in 10.5
  597. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, that matches IE AFAICT (at least IE6).
  598. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> Other browsers seem to work either way, which seems correct to me.
  599. # [21:26] <zcorpan> yes
  600. # [21:26] <zcorpan> problem is maintaining compat with pages that expect escaped identifiers to match escaped name=""s
  601. # [21:27] <zcorpan> s/identifiers/fragments/
  602. # [21:27] <zcorpan> iirc html5 solves that by special-casing <a name>
  603. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  604. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> I was using id, not name.
  605. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> If Firefox works with that, probably no huge compat problem.
  606. # [21:28] <zcorpan> yeah
  607. # [21:31] * Parts: takkaria (~takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  608. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, it's pretty clear that most of the contention on public-html is caused by the fact that some members are using it as a consortium of browser vendors with narrow short-term goals, and some members see it as having other purposes that might conflict with those.
  609. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> It's nice to see someone actually point this out rather than just talking past the other side some more.
  610. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Hmm, why does YouTube's HTML video thing seem to deliberately block you from right-clicking on their videos?
  611. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> An empty div covers the video to steal the clicks.
  612. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Vimeo doesn't do that.
  613. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Particularly annoying since in WebKit, the only way to get fullscreen is to open in a new tab and hit F11 . . .
  614. # [21:37] <zcorpan> maybe youtube uses the div for captions and ads
  615. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> <div class="video-blocker">
  616. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure it's to block clicks.
  617. # [21:37] <zcorpan> or maybe they want to hide save video as from clueless users
  618. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> I assume so. Pretty obnoxious, but I guess only to be expected.
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  620. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Maybe that's a reason not to have good JS APIs, so that authors will be forced to expose default UI and can't easily hide things like "Save". :)
  621. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> (of course, they could just stick with Flash . . .)
  622. # [21:43] <zcorpan> a site like youtube would probably want their own looks of the controls even if they could hide save from the controls
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  631. # [21:58] <zcorpan> annevk: maybe we could have "Filter: [v] Show editorial changes _More options..._"
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  660. # [23:47] <Dashiva> Someone needs to write a LWP5
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  662. # [23:49] <Johnny__> hello
  663. # [23:50] <Johnny__> What's the best way to style forms?
  664. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> dashiva: lwp?
  665. # [23:50] <Johnny__> I mean, is it ok to use id's and classes with input and form tags?
  666. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Yes, of course it is.
  667. # [23:50] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: Perl's excuse for a www lib
  668. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> In fact you have to use ids on your inputs if you want to use <label> without wrapping the input.
  669. # [23:50] <Johnny__> I've seen a lot of people using input[type="text"] for example
  670. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> Sure, that's just easier. You probably already have that data in your html, so there's no need to add class=text if that's all you're looking for.
  671. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> But if you need to style things more specifically, certainly use classes and ids.
  672. # [23:51] <zcorpan> input:not([type]) - i usually omit type=text :)
  673. # [23:51] <Johnny__> Ok
  674. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> Well, yeah, me too. But IE doesn't accept :not().
  675. # [23:52] <zcorpan> who cares
  676. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> My bosses do, because a good 70% of our website visitors use some variety of IE. ^_^
  677. # [23:54] <Johnny__> That sucks.
  678. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Eh, at least I can get away with ignoring IE6 most of the time.
  679. # [23:54] <zcorpan> my mom's site has 57% ie
  680. # [23:54] <Johnny__> I always have to fix something to work on IE. It never ever works as it does in any other popular browser.
  681. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> I was very pleasantly surprised a few months ago when I finished up a major project and realized that I didn't have a single hack for IE8.
  682. # [23:56] <zcorpan> and firefox 30%, opera 4%, safari 4%, chrome 3%, mozilla 1%
  683. # [23:57] <Johnny__> I think the majority of people don't really know the difference between browsers, they use what they have and what they've been used to in the past.
  684. # [23:58] <zcorpan> only 7% of the ie users use ie6
  685. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Jeez, you're lucky.
  686. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> It's a constant sleight-of-hand to keep management from realizing how many people view our website with IE6, so I don't have to support it. >_<
  687. # [23:59] <Johnny__> Does anyone in here still support IE6 ?
  688. # Session Close: Tue Feb 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)