/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-12 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 12 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:22] * Joins: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-247.girton.cam.ac.uk)
  4. # [00:24] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-vhjshzlqatbxstml) (*.net *.split)
  5. # [00:24] * Quits: ivan``` (~ivan@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net) (*.net *.split)
  6. # [00:24] * Quits: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at) (*.net *.split)
  7. # [00:24] * Quits: jorlow (~jorlow@2620:0:1042:2:225:ff:fef2:bfa4) (*.net *.split)
  8. # [00:24] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (*.net *.split)
  9. # [00:24] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (*.net *.split)
  10. # [00:25] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.66) (Quit: Leaving...)
  11. # [00:27] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  12. # [00:27] * Joins: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  13. # [00:27] * Joins: jorlow (~jorlow@2620:0:1042:2:225:ff:fef2:bfa4)
  14. # [00:27] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  15. # [00:28] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-lgnafgthsakvnyzo)
  16. # [00:30] * Quits: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115132715])
  17. # [00:34] * Joins: ivan``` (~ivan@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net)
  18. # [00:38] * Joins: _Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.90.239)
  19. # [00:38] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  20. # [00:42] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.90.239) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  21. # [00:50] * Joins: carllerche (~carllerch@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net)
  22. # [00:53] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  23. # [01:02] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@204.145.67.146)
  24. # [01:06] * Joins: jgornick (~joe@199.199.210.66)
  25. # [01:09] * Quits: crash\ (crash@lubyte.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  26. # [01:13] * Joins: crash\ (crash@lubyte.de)
  27. # [01:22] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc)
  28. # [01:32] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  29. # [01:38] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  30. # [01:39] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  31. # [01:43] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@2620:0:1000:1b01:21f:f3ff:fed0:dd49) (Quit: dglazkov)
  32. # [01:50] * Joins: slightlyoff (~slightlyo@2620:0:1002:1002:21f:5bff:feec:e987)
  33. # [01:51] * Joins: carllerche_ (~carllerch@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net)
  34. # [01:51] * Joins: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@82.113.106.135)
  35. # [01:55] * Quits: carllerche (~carllerch@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  36. # [01:55] * carllerche_ is now known as carllerche
  37. # [01:55] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.106.134) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  38. # [01:56] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  39. # [01:56] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  40. # [02:01] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  41. # [02:12] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-72-174-49.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  42. # [02:16] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  43. # [02:23] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@157.22.22.46) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
  44. # [02:25] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.19.5) (Quit: ap)
  45. # [02:27] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@204.145.67.146) (Quit: Leaving...)
  46. # [02:28] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  47. # [02:28] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  48. # [02:31] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  49. # [02:33] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
  50. # [02:37] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-174-49.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
  51. # [02:41] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  52. # [02:45] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Client Quit)
  53. # [02:48] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.210.66) (Quit: jgornick)
  54. # [02:54] * Quits: carllerche (~carllerch@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net) (Quit: carllerche)
  55. # [02:57] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  56. # [03:01] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  57. # [03:14] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
  58. # [03:21] * Quits: ojan (~ojan@2620:0:1002:1002:225:ff:feef:1010) (Quit: ojan)
  59. # [03:28] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
  60. # [03:28] * Quits: wycats (~yehudakat@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net) (Quit: wycats)
  61. # [03:30] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  62. # [03:36] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-95-222-120-117.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Verlassend)
  63. # [03:38] * Quits: daedb (~daed@h11n1fls34o986.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  64. # [03:45] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@2620:0:1008:1101:225:ff:fef0:9a9e) (Quit: dave_levin)
  65. # [03:46] * Quits: jianli (~jianli@74.125.59.73)
  66. # [03:57] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-67-164-13-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  67. # [04:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@c-67-180-202-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: tantek)
  68. # [04:18] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  69. # [04:18] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  70. # [04:25] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  71. # [04:31] * Quits: drunknbass_work (~aaron@pool-71-106-110-90.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  72. # [04:32] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  73. # [04:34] * Joins: Giacomo- (~giacomo-@host238-230-dynamic.54-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  74. # [04:34] <Giacomo-> morning
  75. # [04:35] <Giacomo-> I was looking at a website's source after the owner said that it's using html5 and noticed a lot of tags inside an <article> tag. Lik <header> div's some p's and footer. Is that a correct use of the tag?
  76. # [04:35] <Giacomo-> Website is http://ryanmerrill.net/
  77. # [04:37] * Quits: slightlyoff (~slightlyo@2620:0:1002:1002:21f:5bff:feec:e987) (Quit: slightlyoff)
  78. # [04:40] <AryehGregor> Looks legit: http://validator.nu/?doc=http://ryanmerrill.net/
  79. # [04:40] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@pool-71-104-157-62.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  80. # [04:42] <Giacomo-> I think the validator is a bit too forgiving :P
  81. # [04:43] <Giacomo-> I checked it there before coming here, but would you agree that the article tag isn't so appropriate there?
  82. # [04:43] <Giacomo-> Maybe a section would of been better
  83. # [04:44] <Hixie> the <article> seems fine
  84. # [04:44] <Hixie> the <hgroup>s at the top are a little more dubious
  85. # [04:45] <Hixie> should probably just be one of them or something
  86. # [04:45] <Hixie> not really clear what the right outline would be
  87. # [04:45] <Giacomo-> hm, I see
  88. # [04:45] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  89. # [04:47] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  90. # [04:48] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  91. # [04:49] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
  92. # [04:51] * Quits: Giacomo- (~giacomo-@host238-230-dynamic.54-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: Java user signed off)
  93. # [05:00] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  94. # [05:01] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  95. # [05:03] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
  96. # [05:14] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  97. # [05:19] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@116.197.240.58)
  98. # [05:19] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-55-145.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  99. # [05:24] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-128-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  100. # [05:30] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@pool-71-104-157-62.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  101. # [05:36] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Quit: Coyote finally caught me)
  102. # [05:36] * Joins: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  103. # [05:36] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Remote host closed the connection)
  104. # [05:37] * Joins: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  105. # [05:42] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  106. # [05:50] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@pool-71-104-157-62.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  107. # [05:51] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@119-228-219-41.eonet.ne.jp)
  108. # [05:52] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  109. # [05:52] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  110. # [05:54] * Joins: drunknbass_work (~aaron@cpe-76-173-195-145.socal.res.rr.com)
  111. # [05:55] * Joins: MikeSmithW3C^ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-128-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  112. # [05:55] * Parts: MikeSmithW3C^ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-128-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("I fall upon the thorns of life! I bleed!")
  113. # [05:56] * Joins: MikeSmithW3C (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-128-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  114. # [05:56] * Quits: MikeSmithW3C (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-128-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  115. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> dammit
  116. # [06:00] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: ?
  117. # [06:01] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-lgnafgthsakvnyzo) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2/20100122095031])
  118. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: ah, nothing specific, just a general curse.. several things not working as expected
  119. # [06:01] * _Utkarsh is now known as Utkarsh
  120. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> e.g., I'm trying the Check for Updates option in Opera.. I select it and nothing happens
  121. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> and my XChat not working like it should
  122. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: btw, I tried Colloquy and really liked it, but it didn't work as expected with this "tircd" thing that I use for twitter
  123. # [06:03] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: what's tircd?
  124. # [06:03] <othermaciej> IRC-to-twitter gateway?
  125. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
  126. # [06:04] <boblet> oh hey MikeSmith
  127. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> boblet: hey man
  128. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> you been trying to ping me for a while
  129. # [06:04] <boblet> heh—wondering if I need to book a park bench for next Wednesday or not :)
  130. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> yeah, sure, definitely
  131. # [06:05] <boblet> thanks man (as always)
  132. # [06:06] <boblet> also did you get any info about the speech? just an hour on whatever, huh?
  133. # [06:06] <MikeSmith> yeah, I think so
  134. # [06:06] <boblet> hope my Japanese is in working order that day
  135. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> mine will be in its usual order, namely bad
  136. # [06:07] <boblet> hehe. I figure lots of code examples np
  137. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> I will do what I can but will probably end up being lazy and falling back to English and kataka-izing prolificly
  138. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> as far as my part, I'm just going to do a walk-through of the validator.nu sources and demo
  139. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> btw, I think Hatano-san will be making a visit to Osaka some time soon
  140. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> to do a presentation that we helped line up for him
  141. # [06:10] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  142. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> boblet: hey, I didn't tell you but Isshiki-san and Ashimura-san and I were in Osaka a couple weeks ago
  143. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> I didn't call you because it was a whirlwind visit
  144. # [06:11] <boblet> MikeSmith: I think Hatano-san is here for next week right? Hopefully gonna catch up in the weekend
  145. # [06:12] <boblet> heh, np. what’s with all the activity down here? *nothing* happens here :/
  146. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> dunno when he's going, didn't realize it was that soon
  147. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> boblet: visiting friends at Panasonic
  148. # [06:12] <boblet> Kyoto if I’m not getting confused
  149. # [06:12] <boblet> aah, nice
  150. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> we arrived at lunchtime then had a couple meetings and then left pretty early because we had something else we had to go to the next day in Tokyo
  151. # [06:15] <boblet> yikes. you weren’t kidding
  152. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> btw, thanks for that smoked meat. That stuff is amazing. ate it with some australian red wine, because I was hungry and had neither a razor nor a bottle of Laphroig close at hand
  153. # [06:18] <boblet> good stuff. yeah Aussie red works well—will bring some up for next month…
  154. # [06:19] * boblet wishes <address> could be used inline (want to add copyright info to same sentence)
  155. # [06:28] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  156. # [06:30] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  157. # [06:31] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
  158. # [06:33] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Remote host closed the connection)
  159. # [06:50] * Hixie has no idea what to do with ian's idea of uploading directories
  160. # [06:51] * Joins: mackstann_ (~death@216-20-152-177-dsl.hevanet.com)
  161. # [06:52] * Quits: drunknbass_work (~aaron@cpe-76-173-195-145.socal.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  162. # [06:53] * Joins: carllerche (~carllerch@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  163. # [06:59] * Quits: carllerche (~carllerch@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: carllerche)
  164. # [06:59] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  165. # [07:04] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  166. # [07:19] * Joins: murr4y (~murray@11.84-49-64.nextgentel.com)
  167. # [07:21] <murr4y> hi, i was wondering if someone had a general idea of the status of web fonts today?
  168. # [07:22] <murr4y> i mean, håkon lie made a stir around 2007/2008, and i haven't heard much about it since
  169. # [07:23] <murr4y> what's generally supported these days? tt? eot? plain opentype? woff?
  170. # [07:23] <murr4y> sorry for not having a very specific question :p just wondered if you have any opinions
  171. # [07:32] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  172. # [07:32] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.90.239) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  173. # [07:34] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
  174. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> murr4y: I think the css3.info site might have some details
  175. # [07:43] * Quits: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@82.113.106.135) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  176. # [07:43] * Joins: roc (~roc@www.mahurangi.school.nz)
  177. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> murr4y: http://www.css3.info/?s=font
  178. # [07:44] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.84.37)
  179. # [07:46] <murr4y> nice, thank you
  180. # [07:46] * Quits: roc (~roc@www.mahurangi.school.nz) (Client Quit)
  181. # [07:48] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  182. # [07:50] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
  183. # [07:51] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  184. # [07:56] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-207-42.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
  185. # [08:00] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  186. # [08:02] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
  187. # [08:31] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  188. # [08:43] * Joins: drunknbass_work (~aaron@cpe-76-173-195-145.socal.res.rr.com)
  189. # [08:47] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  190. # [08:49] * Joins: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@90-224-190-71-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  191. # [09:03] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  192. # [09:14] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@pool-71-104-157-62.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  193. # [09:15] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@ppp-3-229.leed-b-2.access.uk.tiscali.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  194. # [09:18] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@2001:16d8:ff18:1:21b:63ff:fea0:d5cf)
  195. # [09:20] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  196. # [09:20] * Joins: pesla (~retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  197. # [09:20] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@p78be59.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Quit: SIGTERM received; exit)
  198. # [09:20] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@p78be59.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  199. # [09:21] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@162.179.251.212.customer.cdi.no) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  200. # [09:27] <annevk> ooh, larry made a Formal Objection to publishing the drafts, quelle surprise
  201. # [09:32] <boblet> murr4y: for syntax check http://paulirish.com/2009/bulletproof-font-face-implementation-syntax/
  202. # [09:33] <Lachy> annevk, I don't see Larry's objection anywhere on public-html
  203. # [09:33] <hsivonen> annevk: where?
  204. # [09:33] <annevk> see the minutes of the telcon
  205. # [09:35] <Lachy> <masinter> do I need to repeat objections?
  206. # [09:35] <Lachy> paulc: the co-chairs are aware of the formal objection
  207. # [09:35] <Lachy> rubys: it would be helpful to repeat the objection
  208. # [09:35] <Lachy> paulc: it would be helpful to people who aren't reading w3-archive email
  209. # [09:35] <Lachy> so I guess his objection was originally sent to w3c-archive
  210. # [09:35] <hsivonen> oh. I didn't know you are allowed to make FOs in secret
  211. # [09:37] <hsivonen> The section "On Standards" in http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01/sympathy_for_the_devil.html is insightful
  212. # [09:38] <Lachy> for those with access, this is the only mention of an objection that I can find from Larry http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2010Feb/0108.html
  213. # [09:38] <Lachy> maybe I missed the actual objection elsewhere, since that talks about it in past tense
  214. # [09:40] <zcorpan__> it'd be awesome if adobe selled authoring tools for html5
  215. # [09:41] <zcorpan__> i hope they'll do it
  216. # [09:41] <annevk> hsivonen, I guess it shows that the W3C approach might not really work
  217. # [09:41] <Lachy> zcorpan__, I expect them to update Dreamweaver with HTML5 support
  218. # [09:42] <zcorpan__> Lachy: i mean the tools they currently have to produce flash content
  219. # [09:43] <asmodai> Why would anyone object to publishing drafts? :S
  220. # [09:43] <Hixie> has anyone else noticed how larry's e-mails get narrower and narrower the longer they get?
  221. # [09:43] <Hixie> i wonder what causes that
  222. # [09:43] <Hixie> it messes with my head anytime i actually read all the way through his long e-mails
  223. # [09:44] <annevk> custom line breaks?
  224. # [09:44] <asmodai> Hixie: as in a funnel shape?
  225. # [09:44] * Quits: beilabs_ (~beilabs@ppp121-44-120-55.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  226. # [09:44] <Hixie> asmodai: yeah, though left-aligned
  227. # [09:44] <zcorpan__> clearly, if you pull an email to make it longer, it has to get narrower
  228. # [09:44] <Hixie> wedge shaped
  229. # [09:45] <asmodai> mmm, are the emails angry in tone? Anger might explain rational thoughts short circuiting causing use of smaller sentences or so.
  230. # [09:46] <annevk> Hixie, fyi, redirects are a mess
  231. # [09:46] <Hixie> asmodai: not especially
  232. # [09:48] <annevk> which begs the question, what isn't?
  233. # [09:48] <asmodai> Hixie: Mmm, interesting then.
  234. # [09:48] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jan/0539.html is an example of the wedge
  235. # [09:49] <Hixie> though it's more a step than a wedge
  236. # [09:50] <asmodai> Wonder if he hits enter manually.
  237. # [09:51] <Hixie> no response to my comment on http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2010/02/adobe_authoring_for_html5.html :-(
  238. # [09:53] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  239. # [09:54] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  240. # [09:56] <asmodai> I'm not sure what to think of Adobe nowadays to be honest.
  241. # [09:56] <asmodai> I dislike Flash with a passion in some areas and can understand its use in some others.
  242. # [10:06] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  243. # [10:14] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat.se.opera.com)
  244. # [10:18] * Quits: TabAtkins (~chatzilla@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  245. # [10:19] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.84.37)
  246. # [10:22] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Rik`)
  247. # [10:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: never noticed the wedge before - that's weird
  248. # [10:29] <Hixie> it's really noticable in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2010Feb/0100.html
  249. # [10:30] <Hixie> also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2010Feb/0079.html
  250. # [10:31] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  251. # [10:32] <Hixie> i love how http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2010Feb/0106.html talks about how transparency is important
  252. # [10:35] <annevk> lolz
  253. # [10:35] <annevk> so cross-document messaging is without a W3C home for now?
  254. # [10:35] * annevk didn't realize that was nuked from orbit too at the W3C
  255. # [10:36] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  256. # [10:37] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  257. # [10:38] <danbri> Hixie, sorry that's a password protected link... :?
  258. # [10:39] <Hixie> surely not, the author clearly indicates that transparency is important
  259. # [10:40] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  260. # [10:41] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38)
  261. # [10:42] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@213.236.208.247)
  262. # [10:42] <danbri> i hope all the w3c member archives eventually get archived in public, for future historians to marvel over
  263. # [10:43] * danbri reads some of the webapps rechartering thread yesterday ... not so fun reading
  264. # [10:43] <Philip`> Someone should archive it all now, and post it on Wikileaks in 20 years once nobody cares that much about keeping it private any more
  265. # [10:44] <danbri> something like that seems reasonable
  266. # [10:44] <danbri> hixie could donate his inbox too
  267. # [10:44] <danbri> s/20/50/
  268. # [10:45] <Hixie> s/50/0/? :-)
  269. # [10:45] * Quits: mackstann_ (~death@216-20-152-177-dsl.hevanet.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  270. # [10:45] <annevk> Hixie, http://dev.w3.org/html5/postmsg/#idl is empty?
  271. # [10:46] <annevk> Hixie, also, could you rename the draft to Web Messaging as was suggested by othermaciej? then I can simply reference it as such from html5-diff
  272. # [10:46] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Remote host closed the connection)
  273. # [10:46] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@2001:16d8:ff18:1:21b:63ff:fea0:d5cf) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  274. # [10:47] <hsivonen> annevk: what got nuked from the orbit and how? did one of the split out part not get adopted by webapps?
  275. # [10:47] <annevk> pretty much
  276. # [10:47] <annevk> though maybe after june
  277. # [10:48] <hsivonen> yay for time to market
  278. # [10:48] * Quits: syp (~syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  279. # [10:48] * Joins: syp (~syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  280. # [10:49] * Hixie blogs
  281. # [10:50] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  282. # [10:52] <Hixie> annevk: done
  283. # [10:54] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that spec is probably one of the most widely implement features of HTML5 (at least as far as actually new features go)
  284. # [10:54] <hsivonen> othermaciej: fortunately implementations don't wait until CR
  285. # [10:54] <othermaciej> so it doesn't actually matter
  286. # [10:55] <othermaciej> however WebApps is likely to complete rechartering within a few months at which point it can be published as FPWD
  287. # [10:57] <annevk> was anything else split out that I didn't notice?
  288. # [10:58] * Joins: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol)
  289. # [11:02] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  290. # [11:04] <meledin> Am I the only one to think "quantum particle theory" when reading the "Message Channels" section of the HTML5 Messaging document...
  291. # [11:04] <Hixie> heh
  292. # [11:04] <Hixie> the spec even uses the term "entangled"
  293. # [11:04] <Hixie> it's not a coincidence :-)
  294. # [11:05] <meledin> That's a comfort. Means I haven't become too geeky yet.
  295. # [11:05] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  296. # [11:06] <Hixie> i did physics at university
  297. # [11:06] <meledin> Are there any plans to extend message channels between different hosts (by which I mean hosting environment/browser) or is it strictly in-browser currently?
  298. # [11:06] <othermaciej> annevk: I think microdata, microdata vocabularies, canvas 2d context, and postMessage/MessageChannel are the only drafts spun off since our last publication
  299. # [11:06] <Hixie> i occasionally like to give hat tips to my old subject :-)
  300. # [11:07] <annevk> oh right, microdata vocabularies
  301. # [11:07] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@213.236.208.247) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  302. # [11:07] <annevk> is that the three separate drafts?
  303. # [11:07] <annevk> who's publishing those?
  304. # [11:07] <annevk> apart from the WHATWG, of course
  305. # [11:07] <Hixie> vocabs are gone altogether currently in w3c space
  306. # [11:08] <annevk> there's still editor drafts in cvs
  307. # [11:08] <annevk> but okay
  308. # [11:09] <Hixie> it's not being updated
  309. # [11:09] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  310. # [11:10] <annevk> k
  311. # [11:10] <annevk> i'm adding "Specific microdata vocabularies are gone altogether in the W3C draft
  312. # [11:10] <annevk> of HTML5 and are not published as a separate draft. The WHATWG draft of
  313. # [11:10] <annevk> HTML5 still includes them."
  314. # [11:18] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@119-228-219-41.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  315. # [11:18] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  316. # [11:19] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-128-185.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  317. # [11:21] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.88.116)
  318. # [11:24] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-81-236.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  319. # [11:26] <othermaciej> Hixie: can you remind me of your POST test case?
  320. # [11:26] <othermaciej> Hixie: the one that demonstrates how to do a POST without the user's permission and without using scripting?
  321. # [11:27] <Hixie> it's in this directory: http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/http/002/
  322. # [11:30] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.88.116) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  323. # [11:31] * Quits: tkent (~tkent@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving...)
  324. # [11:32] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.158)
  325. # [11:33] <othermaciej> Hixie: thanks
  326. # [11:33] <othermaciej> one of my favorite test cases ever :-)
  327. # [11:33] <Hixie> yeah i kinda like that one too
  328. # [11:37] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Quit: leaving)
  329. # [11:37] * Joins: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  330. # [11:40] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  331. # [11:44] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@y226086.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  332. # [11:47] <virtuelv> that's sort of hard to protect against, no?
  333. # [11:47] <Hixie> nah, not really
  334. # [11:47] <Hixie> same-origin, just avoid doing it
  335. # [11:48] <Hixie> cross-origin, use Origin or other CSRF protections
  336. # [11:48] * hoodow is now known as hoodow__
  337. # [11:48] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@flim.org)
  338. # [11:48] <virtuelv> yes, in terms of protecting the server
  339. # [11:48] * hoodow__ is now known as hoodow
  340. # [11:49] <virtuelv> also delivering some hash to the user in a hidden form field
  341. # [11:50] <virtuelv> I was more concerned with the "let's hide from the user that we're doing a post"
  342. # [11:50] <virtuelv> and that's a harder problem to protect against
  343. # [11:50] <Hixie> not clear that it's a problem
  344. # [11:51] * Joins: Michelangelo (~Michelang@93-42-98-120.ip86.fastwebnet.it)
  345. # [11:51] <virtuelv> Hixie: it's a problem only to the extent that web sites are broken
  346. # [11:52] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  347. # [11:52] <virtuelv> (which is to say, they are, but I don't think we can fix problems that lie between a developer's chair and keyboard)
  348. # [11:53] <Hixie> same-origin, the server can do whatever it wants anyway, without the client even being involved
  349. # [11:53] <Hixie> so it's not clear to me why it matters whether you're doing a GET or a POST
  350. # [11:54] <Hixie> there are advantages to do with UI that give good reasons to do the "right" one
  351. # [11:54] <Hixie> but i don't see any particular threat from being able to "trick" the user into doing a same-origin post with the user's knowledge
  352. # [11:54] <Hixie> if there was, the whole web would have broken down long ago :-)
  353. # [11:54] <Hixie> given that you can script a .post(), etc
  354. # [11:55] <Hixie> er, a .submit(), not a .post()
  355. # [11:59] * Quits: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@90-224-190-71-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  356. # [12:00] <Philip`> What makes you think the web hasn't broken down long ago? :-)
  357. # [12:00] * Joins: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@90-224-190-71-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  358. # [12:00] <Hixie> if this is broken, i'd love to see it working!
  359. # [12:01] <Philip`> If this is working, I'd hate to see it broken :-p
  360. # [12:01] * Quits: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@90-224-190-71-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  361. # [12:01] * Joins: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@90-224-190-71-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  362. # [12:01] <Hixie> "broken" would be like the web in the 80s
  363. # [12:02] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  364. # [12:02] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-207-42.sibtele.com)
  365. # [12:07] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  366. # [12:13] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@pool-98-117-216-229.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  367. # [12:40] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  368. # [12:40] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  369. # [12:41] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-170-167.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  370. # [12:43] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote host closed the connection)
  371. # [12:45] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  372. # [12:52] <workmad3> Hixie: the web didn't exist in the 80's (well... 89, but that's barely the 80's)
  373. # [12:52] <workmad3> although I guess not-existing is a form of broken :)
  374. # [12:52] <Hixie> that's what i meant, yeah :-)
  375. # [12:52] <workmad3> and wow, I need to start checking time-stamps and not reviving hours old arguments :)
  376. # [12:52] <gsnedders> s/80's/80s/g
  377. # [12:53] * gsnedders hides
  378. # [12:53] <workmad3> gsnedders: fair point :)
  379. # [12:53] <Hixie> '80s?
  380. # [12:53] <meledin> The English language has been broken for decades...
  381. # [12:53] * gsnedders is blatantly too much of a QA to allow such bugs
  382. # [12:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: That would be better still
  383. # [12:57] * gsnedders remembers at joint HTML-WG/TAG meeting in '08 timbl making some comment about work on HTML going back 18.5 years, and just commenting in IRC: "/me feels like a n00b, again", causing several people in the meeting to laugh
  384. # [13:00] * Quits: drunknbass_work (~aaron@cpe-76-173-195-145.socal.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  385. # [13:02] <Hixie> i wonder if maybe we should just punt on PUT and DELETE methods
  386. # [13:02] <Hixie> for form submission
  387. # [13:02] <hsivonen> I've learned that parser performance isn't parsing but painting
  388. # [13:03] <Hixie> it's not clear that they're really useful given XHR
  389. # [13:03] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  390. # [13:05] <othermaciej> hsivonen: did you cause too many incremental updates?
  391. # [13:06] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes.
  392. # [13:07] <hsivonen> also, it's annoying that Mac and Vista have so different perf characteristics than XP&Linux
  393. # [13:08] <meledin> Hixie: Wouldn't the same line of reasoning apply to GET and POST then?
  394. # [13:08] <Hixie> i understand the use cases for GET and POST from a form's perspective
  395. # [13:08] <Hixie> PUT and DELETE are a bit less obvious
  396. # [13:09] <Hixie> when was the last time you deleted something that had a URL?
  397. # [13:09] <meledin> It stems from the church of REST
  398. # [13:09] <asmodai> Isn't that whole GET/POST/PUT/DELETE at least directly mappable to CRUD?
  399. # [13:09] <Hixie> yeah, i guess it depends how much you buy into the whole REST thing
  400. # [13:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: looking for the wrath of HTTP fans again?
  401. # [13:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: no, i'm trying to work out how to deal with actual issues raised
  402. # [13:10] <othermaciej> if you make it same-origin only (and not allowed to follow cross-origin redirects) then it should be safe
  403. # [13:11] <meledin> To be fair I never used PUT/DELETE in forms at all since, err, they don't work :-)
  404. # [13:11] <othermaciej> I don't know whether it would actually be useful
  405. # [13:11] <meledin> I do POST to /delete
  406. # [13:12] <meledin> Well, the theory being that if you would PUT to, e.g. a post reply on a forum, there would be no risk of double posts since you'd overwrite the last one
  407. # [13:13] <asmodai> I still find the names of PUT and POST confusing. My mind is also nagging me about missing implementations of DELETE in some webservers or so since it is hardly used. Good chance I'm confusing it with something else though.
  408. # [13:14] <othermaciej> now I am curious how control values affect the request for a PUT or DELETE form
  409. # [13:14] <meledin> It would be useful if people doing forms subscribe to REST. Otherwise, no, not really. So to me that's the question to ask.
  410. # [13:17] <othermaciej> it looks like per HTML5, method=DELETE ignores the contents of form controls and just makes a DELETE method request to the action URI
  411. # [13:19] <othermaciej> that would make DELETE as a form action kind of useless
  412. # [13:19] <annevk> hmm, IETF fail
  413. # [13:20] <othermaciej> for PUT, the form contents are encoded into the body, but it seems unlikely that you'd want to upload a resource using any of the three formats...
  414. # [13:20] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5646 says it is bcp47 but http://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47 says it is http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647 which is not obsoleted by the first URL...
  415. # [13:20] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  416. # [13:20] <hsivonen> yay for BCP stability
  417. # [13:21] <meledin> Well, for DELETE I would assume if there were form contents (such as a list of items to delete) you could encode it in the URL like for GET.
  418. # [13:22] <othermaciej> yeah, but HTML5 does not say to do that, and it's not clear that would be a good behavior anyway
  419. # [13:22] <othermaciej> because then you could only delete resources that have a query in their URI
  420. # [13:23] <Hixie> yeah it'd make no sense to do that
  421. # [13:23] <meledin> I don't see why? Isn't the query ignored if the remote side isn't interested in it?
  422. # [13:23] <Hixie> DELETE would only make sense in the context of a <button> with a formaction="" attribute
  423. # [13:24] <Hixie> PUT doesn't really make any sense at all
  424. # [13:24] <Hixie> both were mostly added for parity wiht xforms back in the day
  425. # [13:24] <annevk> lots of people seemed to want them
  426. # [13:24] <othermaciej> PUT would make sense if you could upload the contents of a file (from <input type=file>) without any other junk prepended or appended
  427. # [13:25] <othermaciej> or upload the contents of a text field or contentEditable area
  428. # [13:25] <meledin> PUT doesn't literally mean what the form PUTS to the resource is the end result, though?
  429. # [13:25] <othermaciej> uploading urlencoded or multipart form data does not seem very useful
  430. # [13:25] <othermaciej> meledin: that's what http PUT is supposed to mean
  431. # [13:25] <othermaciej> (roughly)
  432. # [13:25] <meledin> My understanding is it just means it overwrites the previous data and it's deterministic in its behaviour
  433. # [13:26] <annevk> how the data is encoded has no relevance to PUT afaict
  434. # [13:26] <othermaciej> for PUT wouldn't you normally want to submit something in a form that could make sense to serve as a resource?
  435. # [13:27] <othermaciej> that's certainly how atompub uses it
  436. # [13:27] <meledin> Creating a thread on a forum, for example? PUT-ing the same form several times (e.g. reload/back/forward) doesn't create multiple threads
  437. # [13:28] <Philip`> meledin: Why doesn't it?
  438. # [13:29] <Philip`> How does the HTTP method make any difference to that, in particular?
  439. # [13:29] <annevk> othermaciej, but the server could take the data out of the multipart and use it as resource, no?
  440. # [13:29] <Philip`> Seems like you could do it with POST if you just add some unique form identifier each time you generate the editing form
  441. # [13:30] <Philip`> which is the same as you'd have to do with PUT except there you'd put the unique ID in the URL to make it point at a new resource, I guess
  442. # [13:31] <othermaciej> annevk: could in theory - but that doesn't seem to be the intent of PUT as I understand it
  443. # [13:32] <othermaciej> annevk: for example it seems like you might want to be able to use PUT to talk to an atompub service, but PUT from a form HTML5-style would make that impossible
  444. # [13:32] <othermaciej> I do think PUT could make sense if you could identify a single control and PUT its value
  445. # [13:32] <meledin> "Unless otherwise specified for a particular entity-header, the entity-headers in the PUT request SHOULD be applied to the resource created or modified by the PUT." -- othermaciej seems right.
  446. # [13:33] <meledin> Don't see any mention of "servers can/should ignore content-type on PUT".
  447. # [13:36] <annevk> entity-header != entity body
  448. # [13:36] <annevk> but I don't really care either way :)
  449. # [13:37] <annevk> maybe not allowing them is better because they have this awkward same-origin restriction
  450. # [13:38] <meledin> Philip`: Basically, you're right. The end result is the same. In the PUT case, though, the end result is forced as part of the programming model, while in the POST case the programmer has to think. Being a dumb monkey, I like not thinking.
  451. # [13:40] <Philip`> Seems like the actual implementation requires the same amount of thinking in either case
  452. # [13:40] <Philip`> The conceptual model of resources and identifiers might make the solution easier to discover, though
  453. # [13:41] <meledin> For you and me? Yeah. For someone who hasn't encountered this particular issue before? ... what you said in fancier words.
  454. # [13:41] <Philip`> but you can use that conceptual model regardless of the implementation details
  455. # [13:42] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  456. # [13:42] <Philip`> and the HTML spec/language is not an effective way to teach people that model
  457. # [13:42] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  458. # [13:43] <meledin> I've no strong opinions on the last point. I just jumped in as devil's advocate on the reasoning "it's useless because it can be done with XHR"
  459. # [13:46] * Philip` doesn't have strong opinions on any points, because he doesn't actually care about any of it
  460. # [13:46] <meledin> Apparently enough to correct someone who's wrong on the Internet ;-)
  461. # [13:47] <Hixie> oh it's not useless because it can be done with XHR
  462. # [13:47] <Hixie> it's useless in general, and, because it can be done with XHR, the use cases that remain are already possible anyway.
  463. # [13:47] <Hixie> that would be a better way to put it.
  464. # [13:48] <othermaciej> changes to the design could potentially make it useful, but it's not clear if they are worthwhile, given that you can do it with XHR
  465. # [13:48] <othermaciej> at least, now that XHR can upload a file
  466. # [13:50] <annevk> I now and then think we should value scriptless solutions a bit more, but maybe that's old school
  467. # [13:52] <othermaciej> I think scriptless solutions for common use cases are valuable
  468. # [13:52] <meledin> Scriptless is awesome, especially for stuff end-users never need to see
  469. # [13:52] <meledin> Because it is highly improbable it can go wrong
  470. # [13:53] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what distinction you are making
  471. # [13:54] <meledin> Then take it that it's worthless I guess :-) I just meant it's useful (to me) to make admin views, and debug views and such in plain HTML without JS or even CSS because it's trivial (to me). Add JS to the equation and now I have to debug
  472. # [13:57] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  473. # [14:01] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@pool-98-117-216-229.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: taf2)
  474. # [14:04] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  475. # [14:13] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  476. # [14:21] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  477. # [14:21] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Quit: Leaving...)
  478. # [14:25] * Joins: daedb (~daed@h11n1fls34o986.telia.com)
  479. # [14:26] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  480. # [14:33] * hsivonen doubts the wisdom of making isindex a parser macro
  481. # [14:36] <annevk> isn't it like that in other browsers?
  482. # [14:36] <annevk> e.g. Opera
  483. # [14:36] <annevk> and IE too I believe
  484. # [14:37] <zcorpan__> there's so little isindex compat that we could do the sane thing
  485. # [14:38] <jgraham> Would anyone notice if we coated isindex in concrete and dumped it in the harbour in the middle of the night?
  486. # [14:38] <annevk> sane being dropping it altogether?
  487. # [14:40] <hsivonen> in Opera, the macro is rooted in an isindex element
  488. # [14:41] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  489. # [14:41] <hsivonen> in WebKit, the text field in the macro is an element with the name isindex
  490. # [14:41] <hsivonen> well, I'll remove the isindex tests from the DOM Level 2 HTML test suite and see if I can get r+
  491. # [14:42] <hsivonen> isindex being a macro has caused me disproportionate grief compared to its usefulness
  492. # [14:42] <annevk> don't you need to implement the special processing semantics for isindex form submission?
  493. # [14:42] <hsivonen> annevk: Yes! there's more grief ahead of me before the parser can be shipped!
  494. # [14:43] * hsivonen gestures angrily in the general direction of isindex
  495. # [14:43] <annevk> <keygen> might be tricky too
  496. # [14:43] <annevk> given how that's implemented in Gecko
  497. # [14:43] <zcorpan__> sane being parsing it like a proper void element
  498. # [14:43] <annevk> somewhat unfortunate how a disproportionate amount of time goes to bogus features of the past
  499. # [14:44] <jcranmer> if people dropped support for isindex, who would break?
  500. # [14:47] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@216-136-13-20.static.twtelecom.net)
  501. # [14:50] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  502. # [14:52] <hsivonen> sent email. I wasn't particularly eloquent, because I'm pretty annoyed with isindex right now
  503. # [14:54] <jgraham> Seriously do we have any examples of actual sites that break due to <isindex> being broken?
  504. # [14:54] <jgraham> s/broken/missing/
  505. # [14:54] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  506. # [14:55] <hsivonen> I'm even more angered when I consider the Concorde effect and how much effort I've already put into isindex
  507. # [14:55] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  508. # [14:57] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.158) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  509. # [14:58] * Quits: pmuellr (~pmuellr@216-136-13-20.static.twtelecom.net) (Quit: pmuellr)
  510. # [14:58] * Quits: Michelangelo (~Michelang@93-42-98-120.ip86.fastwebnet.it) (Remote host closed the connection)
  511. # [15:00] <Philip`> http://likelylotusblue.com/cgi-bin/webglimpse/
  512. # [15:00] <Philip`> You'd break that kind of thing if <isindex> wasn't supported at all
  513. # [15:01] <Philip`> Oops, that one's broken anyway
  514. # [15:01] <Philip`> http://likelylotusblue.com/cgi-bin/webglimpse/home/llbadmin/likelylotusblue-www
  515. # [15:01] <Philip`> That's slightly less broken but still broken
  516. # [15:02] <annevk> not very convincing examples :)
  517. # [15:03] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.221)
  518. # [15:04] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  519. # [15:04] <Philip`> http://costard.lbl.gov/cgi-bin/man/man2html - there's one
  520. # [15:04] <Philip`> It works if you enter something like "cat"
  521. # [15:04] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
  522. # [15:04] * Joins: TabAtkins (~chatzilla@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net)
  523. # [15:05] <annevk> sweet
  524. # [15:15] * Philip` fails to find any other examples that actually work
  525. # [15:16] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@y226086.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  526. # [15:31] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  527. # [15:34] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  528. # [15:34] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  529. # [15:44] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
  530. # [16:03] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@p78be59.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Quit: SIGTERM received; exit)
  531. # [16:04] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@p78be59.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  532. # [16:06] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  533. # [16:13] <annevk> ooh, am I being tentatively accused of FUD on public-html?
  534. # [16:13] <annevk> I wonder how depressing it would be to find the last useful email on that list
  535. # [16:14] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-mnqrnopuclvxxnbn)
  536. # [16:15] <annevk> oh, there was exactly 1 non-process related email today
  537. # [16:15] <gsnedders> How did that get through?
  538. # [16:16] <Dashiva> Maybe the process needs to be improved to prevent that from happening
  539. # [16:16] <annevk> and yesterday around 3 or 4
  540. # [16:17] <annevk> it's sad, though for sure the Process moguls can declare victory for now
  541. # [16:18] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  542. # [16:19] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  543. # [16:19] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  544. # [16:21] * Quits: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@90-224-190-71-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  545. # [16:21] <TabAtkins> I have GMail use nearly identical colors for whatwg, htmlwg, and webapps list emails, so I can't tell which is which without specifically looking for it.
  546. # [16:25] <annevk> also, http://twitter.com/shelleypowers/status/8296745940 didn't last very long
  547. # [16:26] <jgraham> And you are surprised why?
  548. # [16:27] <annevk> was that in reply to TabAtkins?
  549. # [16:27] <Lachy> someone should raise a objection about the violation of process that allowed that non-process related e-mail to get through.
  550. # [16:28] <annevk> you might upset the Process moguls
  551. # [16:32] <asmodai> Hixie: Well, your post made it to the front of reddit ;)
  552. # [16:32] <asmodai> oh wait, second page
  553. # [16:33] <annevk> it's really no wonder people prefer the WHATWG list if you study the numbers a bit
  554. # [16:37] <annevk> link to the reddit entry?
  555. # [16:40] <TabAtkins> Heh, just challenged Lawson to a drink-off.
  556. # [16:40] <TabAtkins> Now just have to find an excuse to be in the same place as him.
  557. # [16:45] <Lachy> TabAtkins, it seems like a drink-off is a reasonable excuse.
  558. # [16:45] <TabAtkins> Tell my wife that. ^_^
  559. # [16:45] <Lachy> ok, is she in IRC?
  560. # [16:45] * Joins: Sidnicious (~Sidney@pdpc/supporter/professional/sidney)
  561. # [16:45] <TabAtkins> No.
  562. # [16:46] <asmodai> annevk: http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/b19ob/adobe_now_holding_up_publication_of_the_html5/
  563. # [16:46] <Lachy> well, then pass on my message for me :-)
  564. # [16:46] <TabAtkins> I will direct you to her soonest. ^_^
  565. # [16:46] * Joins: tametick_ (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  566. # [16:47] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  567. # [16:47] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  568. # [16:47] * Joins: a-ja (~chatzilla@adsl-70-237-140-67.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net)
  569. # [16:49] <a-ja> anyone happen to have a xbl binding for details/summary, properly styled, that works with xbl2.js google code?
  570. # [16:49] * a-ja is not holding his breath
  571. # [16:50] <TabAtkins> Nope.
  572. # [16:54] <Philip`> Maybe the idea is to split the HTML5 language into as many tiny pieces as possible, and then you can block every one of the pieces except the tiny core that still has the name "HTML5" attached to it, and then you can claim you're not blocking HTML5
  573. # [16:54] <a-ja> tks anyway....(wasn't *even* gonna include "accessible" in that question)
  574. # [16:55] * Philip` can't think of any reasonable and common meaning of "HTML5" by which the 2D canvas context is not part of HTML5
  575. # [16:57] <annevk> othermaciej, you didn't finish your sentence on public-webapps
  576. # [16:58] <annevk> othermaciej, also, that test seems very pointless to optimize for
  577. # [16:59] <othermaciej> annevk: apparently Mozilla and Microsoft both thought it was sufficiently common to do getElementsByTagName in a loop that they optimized for it years before this test existed
  578. # [17:00] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  579. # [17:01] <othermaciej> (in fact, with caching it's not even that much of a perf hit to do it in a loop)
  580. # [17:01] <annevk> exposing the gc seems very wrong
  581. # [17:01] <annevk> also you can optimize by creating small js objects
  582. # [17:02] <annevk> and doing other tricks
  583. # [17:03] <othermaciej> the overhead is in doing a GC allocation at all
  584. # [17:03] * Joins: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  585. # [17:03] <othermaciej> there is no trick you can use to get the speed back
  586. # [17:03] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  587. # [17:04] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.106.135)
  588. # [17:05] <Philip`> http://www.hotelgoal.com/city/vn/hotel-in-bai-chay.htm
  589. # [17:05] <Philip`> for(i=0; i< document.getElementById(frm).getElementsByTagName('SELECT').length; i++){
  590. # [17:05] <Philip`> if(document.getElementById(frm).getElementsByTagName('SELECT')[i].value==0){
  591. # [17:05] <Philip`> Is that what the optimisation is for?
  592. # [17:05] <othermaciej> Philip`: yes
  593. # [17:05] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.106.135) (Client Quit)
  594. # [17:06] <othermaciej> Philip`: there's only 4 select elements in that page afaict so the effect in this case would be small
  595. # [17:06] <Philip`> It looks a very common pattern
  596. # [17:06] <Philip`> http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang=fr&id=280&portrait_ID=66&function=print
  597. # [17:07] <Philip`> while (document.getElementsByTagName("span")[i] != null) {
  598. # [17:07] <Philip`> if (document.getElementsByTagName("span")[i].className
  599. # [17:07] <Philip`> == "fn") {
  600. # [17:07] <Philip`> ...
  601. # [17:07] <annevk> othermaciej, you don't think the gc issue is a problem?
  602. # [17:08] <othermaciej> annevk: I dont think setting custom properties on NodeLists is at all common, so I don't think it's an issue in practice, even though it is theoretically nondeterministic behavior
  603. # [17:08] <annevk> we could forbid custom properties on nodelists
  604. # [17:08] <othermaciej> annevk: if we really wanted to avoid it, we could require returning the same object, which to the level of observational equivalence would require caching it so long as it is live, or if it has ever had a custom property set
  605. # [17:09] <othermaciej> but I don't think that is worth the effort
  606. # [17:09] <annevk> or pin objects
  607. # [17:09] <annevk> yeah
  608. # [17:09] <Philip`> Lots seem to be looping over 'a' and 'img', so I imagine there's going to be quite a few of those
  609. # [17:09] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  610. # [17:09] <othermaciej> Philip`: thanks for finding actual examples
  611. # [17:10] <Philip`> See also http://google.com/codesearch?q=getElementsByTagName%5C%28%5B%5E%29%5D%2B%5C%29%5C%5B%5Ba-zA-Z%5D
  612. # [17:10] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  613. # [17:10] <annevk> it seems somewhat dangerous to me
  614. # [17:12] <othermaciej> Philip`: clever search regexp
  615. # [17:12] <annevk> time for a beer
  616. # [17:13] <othermaciej> there is probably a small risk of depending on nondeterministic behavior in the unlikely case someone really does set custom properties
  617. # [17:14] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  618. # [17:18] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.66)
  619. # [17:19] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
  620. # [17:20] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-81-236.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  621. # [17:25] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-60-105.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  622. # [17:27] * Quits: a-ja (~chatzilla@adsl-70-237-140-67.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  623. # [17:30] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  624. # [17:36] * Joins: openstandards (~openstand@78.143.215.162)
  625. # [17:37] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  626. # [17:38] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: thxbye)
  627. # [17:41] <openstandards> Hi, have i came to the right place to ask about semantic mark up involving html 5?
  628. # [17:43] <gsnedders> Yeah, basically
  629. # [17:47] <openstandards> do you get any benefit from using input=search i'm aware of the other new fields which offer validation
  630. # [17:48] <miketaylr> you get a neat little x button to clear the field (in chrome/safari)
  631. # [17:50] * Joins: NickRiviera (~Nefasto@201-0-169-111.dial-up.telesp.net.br)
  632. # [17:51] <openstandards> ahhh ok thank you, these new ui widgets are much better for making web apps
  633. # [17:51] <NickRiviera> Hixie, Hi.
  634. # [17:51] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-qjjfiybgqqzbheth)
  635. # [17:51] * Joins: hish (~chatzilla@p57B7DF3D.dip.t-dialin.net)
  636. # [17:52] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.221) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  637. # [17:57] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-qjjfiybgqqzbheth) (Quit: dglazkov)
  638. # [17:58] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  639. # [17:58] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.100)
  640. # [17:58] * Quits: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  641. # [18:05] <AryehGregor> openstandards, http://diveintohtml5.org/forms.html
  642. # [18:05] <AryehGregor> That mentions how most browsers implement the various input types.
  643. # [18:05] <AryehGregor> type="search" mainly just looks more like a native search box on Macs.
  644. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> But it's conceivable that browsers will treat it cleverly in other ways in the future, so why not.
  645. # [18:07] <paul_irish> and these are proposals for others, but not implemented quite yet http://docs.google.com/View?id=dch3zh37_0cf8kc8c4
  646. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> (Actually, it looks wrong on Chrome on Windows/Linux, IMO: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=21560 )
  647. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> paul_irish, well, those are proposals for WebKit, yeah.
  648. # [18:07] <AryehGregor> Opera and iPhone already implement some of that.
  649. # [18:08] <paul_irish> aye
  650. # [18:08] <openstandards> AryehGregor, i've been playing about with the html 5 spec for sometime opera seems to be leading the way
  651. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> openstandards, in some parts yes, some parts no.
  652. # [18:08] <paul_irish> with webforms definitely
  653. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> For instance, it's only just getting localStorage support in 10.50, IIRC.
  654. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> But yeah, it's had a pretty complete Web Forms implementation for a long time now, it's neat.
  655. # [18:09] <openstandards> i do like the datepicker function thats been added to the spec, thats extremely neat
  656. # [18:10] * Quits: pesla (~retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com ))
  657. # [18:12] * Joins: mackstann_ (~death@216-20-152-177-dsl.hevanet.com)
  658. # [18:14] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  659. # [18:14] <openstandards> i haven't seen much info on <menu> yet hows that treated?
  660. # [18:19] <openstandards> aroben, thank you for that rather interesting article never knew the iphone's browser was that good
  661. # [18:19] <aroben> openstandards: I think you might have the wrong person
  662. # [18:19] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  663. # [18:20] <openstandards> grrrrr sorry i never tabbed enough
  664. # [18:21] <openstandards> tab complete very useful function when used correctly
  665. # [18:24] * Joins: Michelangelo (~Michelang@93-42-98-120.ip86.fastwebnet.it)
  666. # [18:24] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  667. # [18:28] <Philip`> With the html5lib serialiser, how can I make it not output doctypes?
  668. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> tail -n +2
  669. # [18:31] <Philip`> In the token serialiser loop: if text != '<!DOCTYPE html>'
  670. # [18:31] <Philip`> That works well enough for me
  671. # [18:36] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  672. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> w3c-archive is accessible to who? Not people who are just HTMLWG Invited Experts, right?
  673. # [18:37] <Philip`> No
  674. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> Hurrah.
  675. # [18:37] <Philip`> Members only, I think
  676. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> What's it used for?
  677. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> Well, I'm a "member" of the HTMLWG, just I only have public access, I think. Or something.
  678. # [18:37] <Philip`> For hiding things from mere invited experts, I guess
  679. # [18:37] <Philip`> but I don't know since I can't see it
  680. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> I can't even find a public list description.
  681. # [18:38] <Philip`> AryehGregor: But you're not a Member
  682. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> Oh, maybe I'm a Participant but not a Member? http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1
  683. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> It says "(public)" next to my name, I guess that means I don't get to see the cool secret stuff.
  684. # [18:39] <Philip`> I think Members are only employees of http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List
  685. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> For some people it says "(public) Invited expert", and for some it says "W3C Invited Experts".
  686. # [18:40] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  687. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> Like Tantek is a W3C Invited Expert.
  688. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> Maybe I should bug someone to get Wikimedia joining the W3C and make me their representative.
  689. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Doesn't seem worth it. I guess I'll have to if I become a full-time employee at any point, though.
  690. # [18:41] <Philip`> Would that be a good use of $8000 of Wikimedia's money?
  691. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Probably, it has "advancing open standards" as part of its mission.
  692. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Values "We believe that this mission requires thriving open formats and open standards on the web to allow the creation of content not subject to restrictions on creation, use, and reuse."
  693. # [18:42] <Philip`> Would W3C membership help advance open standards?
  694. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Heh.
  695. # [18:42] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: if you get invited as an Invited Expert to any group but HTML WG, you'd probably become a real Invited Expert
  696. # [18:42] <Philip`> more than spending the money/resources on other things
  697. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, because in most groups, Invited Experts are actually invited experts? :)
  698. # [18:43] <Philip`> and contributing from a non-Member perspective
  699. # [18:45] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.19.5)
  700. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> I dunno, that's not my decision.
  701. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> I think that if I get employed by them, though, they have to become a member if I'm to remain part of the HTMLWG, or something?
  702. # [18:48] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-66-64.dynamic.qsc.de)
  703. # [18:49] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: in most groups, yeah, you have to be actually invited
  704. # [18:49] <othermaciej> the $8k fee for nonprofits seems kinda steep
  705. # [18:50] <openstandards> othermaciej, that it does
  706. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> Wikimedia has about $8.6m in revenue for FY2008, so I guess they'd be able to afford it if necessary. Dunno.
  707. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> They plan to make $10.6m in 2009-10.
  708. # [18:51] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I don't believe they do - you can be an Invited Expert as long as your employer is not a Member, though it seems they don't like IE status being used as a way to circumvent membership fees
  709. # [18:51] <Philip`> s/they do/they do have to become a member/
  710. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> Philip`, when I signed up, I was asked if my employer had anything to do with the web, or something like that.
  711. # [18:52] <othermaciej> I don't know how strict they are about nonprofits
  712. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> That's a point, maybe they'd be nice. Dunno.
  713. # [18:52] <Philip`> I'd expect that if you're contributing as an individual then that's okay
  714. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> I'll deal with that when I come to it.
  715. # [18:52] <Philip`> rather than contributing as effectively an official representative of your employer
  716. # [18:53] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@2620:0:1000:1b01:225:ff:fef2:992b)
  717. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> See, this is what WF2 is good for: http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/201002/errord/linkedinwtf.png
  718. # [18:53] <othermaciej> Wikimedia being a W3C Member would probably be a good thing for marginally improving the quality of AC decisions
  719. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, yeah, I was thinking it would be a good thing to have more members whose interests actually lie with a free web.
  720. # [18:55] <othermaciej> I was thinking from the POV of caring about open source issues, and also just a large content publisher that cares about advancing the web platform
  721. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> Right.
  722. # [18:56] <othermaciej> I wonder if the list at <http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List> is actually current
  723. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> You'd think $7,900 would be enough to pay someone to update the list.
  724. # [18:57] <othermaciej> I thought I'd heard that Yahoo! is not a member any more
  725. # [18:57] * Quits: hish (~chatzilla@p57B7DF3D.dip.t-dialin.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  726. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> That would be pretty interesting.
  727. # [18:59] <othermaciej> It is sad though that there aren't more large content publishers represented (and ideally active in the HTML WG)
  728. # [19:00] <othermaciej> it would be nice to hear direct from e.g. Facebook or Twitter or Amazon what they'd like to see
  729. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> Yeah, kind of funny that none of them are part of the W3C.
  730. # [19:01] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  731. # [19:01] <AryehGregor> Does the HTMLWG have any private media of communication? Ian's latest blog post seems to suggest Adobe was raising objections in secret. Do these count for anything until they're filed as bugs or whatnot?
  732. # [19:01] <othermaciej> w3c could probably improve their financial situation a lot if they could convince big Web content companies that W3C membership is relevant to them
  733. # [19:01] <othermaciej> the HTML WG does not have any private mailing lists or the like
  734. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> So what is w3c-archive?
  735. # [19:02] <Philip`> The WHATWG has $0 membership fees and still doesn't seem to attract any people from big Web content companies
  736. # [19:02] <Philip`> so why would the W3C be more successful at getting them involved?
  737. # [19:02] <othermaciej> w3c-archive is like www-archive, but restricted to member-only access
  738. # [19:02] <othermaciej> Philip`: I'm surprised the WHATWG hasn't been successful at it either
  739. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> It is kind of weird.
  740. # [19:03] <othermaciej> Philip`: maybe getting improvements to specs to ultimately get improvements to browsers is beyond their time horizon
  741. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> Whereas I guess implementers have a more short-term interest.
  742. # [19:03] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: the objection I am aware of was first mailed to some members of the W3C Team, and subsequently some related emails were sent to the Member-only w3c-archive list
  743. # [19:04] <othermaciej> why that person thought it was appropriate to raise an objection about a fully public Working Group through private channels, I don't know
  744. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> But it will have to be posted publicly before anyone is required to address it or it can impede the spec's progress in any way, I guess?
  745. # [19:04] <othermaciej> I am also not entirely sure what said person is objecting to, whether it's a Formal Objection, or what
  746. # [19:05] <othermaciej> since the objection was addressed to the W3C Team and not to the Chairs at all, I think it's for the W3C to take care of it
  747. # [19:05] <othermaciej> and the Chairs are going to proceed as if it doesn't exist until we hear otherwise
  748. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> k.
  749. # [19:05] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-67-164-13-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
  750. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> >_< I hate the member-only lists. Is there anything *actually* binding me to 'secrecy' about them? Did I agree to something when I became an IE that I'm not aware of? Or is it just a cultural thing?
  751. # [19:15] <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/comm.html#confidentiality-levels
  752. # [19:17] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  753. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> Annoying, but ok. This is frankly an abuse of the member-only list, and I'm disappointed in the author.
  754. # [19:20] <Philip`> It's fun watching arguments on public lists about what was said on private lists, where the participants know what was said but can't actually say what it was
  755. # [19:20] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: there's a particular person who has started quite a few html-wg-related threads on w3c-archive recently, and I must say I do not fully understand why
  756. # [19:21] <Philip`> (...watching from the perspective of someone who doesn't know what was said, and can just reconstruct a vague outline and apply imagination to guess the rest)
  757. # [19:21] <othermaciej> A Formal Objection has to be publicly available per the Process: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#WGArchiveMinorityViews
  758. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> Maybe they want to see if they can apply enough pressure to get something changed without anyone being able to pin it on them?
  759. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> Or they want to test reactions privately before committing to it publicly?
  760. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> Like for PR sort of reasons.
  761. # [19:22] <othermaciej> however, there is also the option to appeal a chair's decision if a member feels they are not getting due process: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#WGAppeals
  762. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> I really haven't noticed anything obnoxious from Adobe on the public lists, or at least not related to Flash or related technologies that HTML5 threatens.
  763. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> There were some posts about how Flash interacts with sandboxes, but nothing terribly unreasonable.
  764. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> (sorry, I mean "plugins", not "Flash")
  765. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> (to be fair, it would be Acrobat as much as Flash)
  766. # [19:25] <othermaciej> AC reps can also appeal certain decisions in a way that is only Member-visible, but I am not sure that applies here: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/acreview.html#ACAppeal
  767. # [19:26] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  768. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> Well, I've registered my disapproval in any case.
  769. # [19:27] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@2620:0:1008:1101:225:ff:fef0:9a9e)
  770. # [19:29] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  771. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> Hm. Why don't I see w3c-archive on the lists.w3.org page?
  772. # [19:29] <othermaciej> there's a separate page of Member-only lists
  773. # [19:30] <othermaciej> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/
  774. # [19:30] <Philip`> Sadly that list of Member-only lists is Member-only
  775. # [19:32] * AryehGregor is reminded a bit of The Castle.
  776. # [19:32] <othermaciej> those of you who are permitted Member-only access may wish to view this Member-only post where someone reminds me of the importance of transparency: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2010Feb/0082.html
  777. # [19:32] * Joins: cohitre (~cohitre@64-40-56-46-dsl.itltd.net)
  778. # [19:32] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@64-40-56-46-dsl.itltd.net)
  779. # [19:33] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  780. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> We should all just follow the example of, I think, David Baron and refuse to post on private lists (unless absolutely required).
  781. # [19:36] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  782. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> (I'm currently following that policy with the magnanimous assistance of the W3C, which doesn't let me post on private lists to begin with.)
  783. # [19:37] * Joins: jgornick (~joe@199.199.210.66)
  784. # [19:39] * Quits: mackstann_ (~death@216-20-152-177-dsl.hevanet.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  785. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Heehee.
  786. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The only relevant member-only list I participate in is the CSSWG's one, and all we use it for is posting agendas and coordinating meetups. This is the maximum extent to which I think private lists should be used.
  787. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> Why does that need to be private?
  788. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> Because there's no particular need for it to be public; it just clutters up the public list with useless stuff. No actual discussion takes place over there.
  789. # [19:45] <Dashiva> That's an answer for "why is it a separate list?", not for why it's private
  790. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Then you could have it on a separate public list.
  791. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> Sure, but no one would read it. Shrug.
  792. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> It's really irrelevant where that sort of stuff goes.
  793. # [19:45] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  794. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> You should err on the side of transparency.
  795. # [19:46] <Dashiva> The thing is, nobody on the outside knows what happens on a private list
  796. # [19:46] <Dashiva> So you _might_ be discussing all kinds of things there
  797. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> That too.
  798. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> It creates the appearance of hiding things.
  799. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> We do giggle over pictures of you, Dashiva.
  800. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> I've heard that it used to be used more often, no?
  801. # [19:46] <Dashiva> There's more than one picture of me?
  802. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it did. And that was a bad idea.
  803. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> I'm sure I heard that some CSSWG members used to never post on the public list at all.
  804. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> From reading othermaciej's link, though, it looks like the W3C treats Members-only areas as a perk of membership. I wonder what the procedure would be to convert a WG to all-public like the HTMLWG?
  805. # [19:47] * Joins: FireyFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  806. # [19:47] <othermaciej> Web Apps WG is almost all-public
  807. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> I suppose something like "Hey, could you kill our private list? We don't need it any more."
  808. # [19:48] <othermaciej> there is a member-only list that is only occasionally used for administrative matters
  809. # [19:48] <othermaciej> confidentiality level for a group is defined by the charter
  810. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Which you just said is really hard to change.
  811. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Or said recently.
  812. # [19:49] <Dashiva> I don't think the two ancestors of webapps were as open as webapps is
  813. # [19:50] * Joins: drunknbass_work (~aaron@pool-71-106-110-90.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  814. # [19:53] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  815. # [20:01] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  816. # [20:02] <othermaciej> Dashiva: the webapps charter was intentionally written to be more open
  817. # [20:02] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: it's a pain in the ass to change it, but charters do expire periodically
  818. # [20:04] * FireyFly is now known as FIreFly
  819. # [20:04] * FIreFly is now known as FireFly
  820. # [20:11] * Quits: NickRiviera (~Nefasto@201-0-169-111.dial-up.telesp.net.br) (Quit: Leaving)
  821. # [20:17] * Joins: wycats (~yehudakat@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net)
  822. # [20:21] * Quits: tametick_ (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054634])
  823. # [20:25] <karlushi> [12:54] <othermaciej> I wonder if the list at <http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List> is actually current
  824. # [20:25] <karlushi> the list is dynamic
  825. # [20:25] <wycats> Hixie: what's all this about Adobe :P
  826. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> wycats, he can't say, it's secret.
  827. # [20:27] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@2620:0:1000:1b01:225:ff:fef2:992b) (Quit: dglazkov)
  828. # [20:27] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@2620:0:1000:1b01:21f:f3ff:fed0:dd49)
  829. # [20:27] <wycats> AryehGregor: I know :P
  830. # [20:28] <wycats> I'm on one of the sekrit lists -- /me looks
  831. # [20:29] * Joins: fupp (~User@mg038a.studby.ntnu.no)
  832. # [20:29] <wycats> AryehGregor: I was just ribbing
  833. # [20:31] <karlushi> Member lists sometimes give the possibility to share information which is private but need to be archived. It could be phone numbers, addresses, etc.
  834. # [20:31] <karlushi> The Member lists come from a time where closed doors helped to solve conflicts that participants failed to resolve in public (transition ietf to w3c)
  835. # [20:31] <wycats> karlushi: I know I know
  836. # [20:31] * karlushi replying to previous comments on irc. not yours wycats
  837. # [20:32] <wycats> karlushi: :)
  838. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> karlushi: Pretty sure all our public information exists on the web anyway. Anyone could find out where I live and what my phone number is without too much difficult, frex.
  839. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> Also, you could just e-mail it to a bunch of people directly without a mailing list. You're not going to be communicating that kind of stuff very often.
  840. # [20:33] <karlushi> TabAtkins, well if you published it
  841. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> I mean that that sort of info tends to get published *anyway*. It's usually public info, even if you *do* have to dig for it.
  842. # [20:35] <wycats> TabAtkins: this brush-up over private lists reminds of the "omg Pelosi and Reid are having a private conversation not on CSPAN"
  843. # [20:35] <wycats> the idea that there will be private communications period is not unreasonable
  844. # [20:35] <wycats> are you going to ban W3C members from any email that is not through the public lists?
  845. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> No, private communications period are fine, but there shouldn't be official W3C fora for them.
  846. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Official business should all be in public.
  847. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> Of course not. I would like to discourage w3c members from making important arguments about w3c products on private lists.
  848. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> We're developing open standards. Doing anything like this behind closed doors is inappropriate.
  849. # [20:39] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@157.22.22.46)
  850. # [20:40] <wycats> AryehGregor, TabAtkins: all the "official fora" does is provide an alternative to reply-all
  851. # [20:41] * karlushi notes that he has no access to member lists
  852. # [20:41] <Dashiva> wycats: They also legitimize it
  853. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> wycats: What? It also provides publicly-available archives, and an obvious way to both read and write to the relevant group.
  854. # [20:42] <wycats> TabAtkins: I'm not in favor of conducting public business in private, but the idea that private communication shouldn't occur is just asking for problems
  855. # [20:42] <wycats> not everything can be done under the glare of the cameras
  856. # [20:42] <wycats> sometimes people need to be able to make candid arguments to each other
  857. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> I didn't say that private communication shouldn't occur.
  858. # [20:42] <karlushi> TabAtkins, that is true that open is good, but it also creates challenges sometimes. There are issues on both styles. I have seen both at work and none are perfect.
  859. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> I said that public brusiness shouldn't occur in private.
  860. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Pretty much everything can be done in public.
  861. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> That's how many open-source projects operate, and it works fine.
  862. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> In this case, public business *is* occurring in private. That's inappropriate.
  863. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> People are just candid in public.
  864. # [20:43] <Dashiva> There's also a difference between "private" and "only for people who pay"
  865. # [20:43] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  866. # [20:43] <karlushi> Dashiva, here it is also a question of history
  867. # [20:44] <karlushi> moving from one financing model to another one is very very very hard
  868. # [20:44] <Dashiva> That seems unrelated
  869. # [20:44] <karlushi> Dashiva, nope. The full structure of the organization was based on a model which is now challenged by the new trend and the new culture.
  870. # [20:45] <karlushi> But the employees, aka *people*, are still a reality you have to deal with
  871. # [20:45] <karlushi> and W3C has not a big budget
  872. # [20:46] <karlushi> You can decide to open everything, and make a donation plan, but this is a full reorganization.
  873. # [20:46] <Dashiva> That seems unrelated still
  874. # [20:46] <karlushi> switching from one model to the other takes time, a lot of time
  875. # [20:46] <Dashiva> It's possible to have members without letting them run everything in hidden fora
  876. # [20:46] <karlushi> Dashiva, but some members who pay may not want to do it in public.
  877. # [20:47] <karlushi> and if they say, public = no money
  878. # [20:47] <karlushi> how do you deal with it? aka the reality
  879. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> Has anyone said that?
  880. # [20:47] <karlushi> same difficulty for Mozilla-Google
  881. # [20:47] <Dashiva> You respond by making their claims public?
  882. # [20:47] <karlushi> nope
  883. # [20:48] * TabAtkins has to bow out and go get his license renewed. bbs
  884. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> karlushi, has any of this been a problem for the HTMLWG?
  885. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Because that's completely open.
  886. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Some other WGs are almost completely open at this point, reportedly, like CSSWG or Web Apps.
  887. # [20:48] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Well, except the w3c-member stuff...
  888. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Doesn't seem like it needs "a full reorganization".
  889. # [20:48] <karlushi> just being logical. Make a concert in an open area draw a circle line, inside the circle line, you pay, outside you don't pay.
  890. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, that's outside the WG.
  891. # [20:48] <karlushi> I bet you will not get a lot of money
  892. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> karlushi, the W3C can require membership for organizations whose employees post to the list, as I think is the case for the HTMLWG.
  893. # [20:49] <karlushi> AryehGregor, the htmlwg is part of an organization which has 15 years of existence.
  894. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> So you can read, but not influence unless you pay.
  895. # [20:49] <karlushi> history history
  896. # [20:50] <Dashiva> karlushi: Well, actually, the winter sports arena in Oslo had a hill just outside called "the free hill"
  897. # [20:50] <karlushi> AryehGregor, that doesn't work very well. People can hide behind email addresses. Having been the first staff contact for the new htmlwg, I can tell you that it's almost impossible to detect
  898. # [20:50] <Dashiva> And for some strange reason, people still paid to get inside
  899. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> karlushi, sure. Now how many members does the HTMLWG have?
  900. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> Quite a few.
  901. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> So a few cheat.
  902. # [20:51] <karlushi> they were more when it started
  903. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> This reminds me of arguments about DRM.
  904. # [20:52] <karlushi> htmlwg is public. And I'm very happy that it is public and open. It has been a long discussion for it to be.
  905. # [20:52] <karlushi> do not shoot the messenger.
  906. # [20:52] * Joins: roc (~roc@222-152-172-240.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  907. # [20:52] <karlushi> I advocate for it.
  908. # [20:52] <karlushi> BUT there is financial reality of a structure too.
  909. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> Maybe the W3C could manage with less money if it cut down on bureaucracy, too. The WHATWG doesn't have to charge membership fees, and it's arguably producing a superior spec to the W3C version of HTML5.
  910. # [20:53] * karlushi is not replying to that.
  911. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> :)
  912. # [20:54] <Dashiva> You could argue that the reason WHATWG is so efficient is because W3C serves as a pressure release valve :)
  913. # [20:54] <karlushi> I do not think whatwg is efficient. period.
  914. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, no, people don't do things like argue about process here because there is no process. If they disagree with a decision, they don't argue incessantly because it's pointless, they're just going to get ignored.
  915. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> I can see why some perceive it as unequitable, but I don't see how it could be considered inefficient at its goal -- namely, coordinating and standardizing implementation of new web features.
  916. # [20:56] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Yes, but you also have an alternate forum more open to your complaints. If that didn't exist, you'd have to choose between silence or trying harder
  917. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Maybe. But I suspect that kind of behavior wouldn't be tolerated if it started to make the list less useful. A lot like most open-source projects' communications media -- you can make whatever arguments you like until you get in the way.
  918. # [20:57] <karlushi> Shoutocracy
  919. # [20:58] * Quits: roc (~roc@222-152-172-240.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) (Quit: roc)
  920. # [20:58] <karlushi> it is very hard to find the right equilibrium
  921. # [20:58] <karlushi> in terms of listening people, and making the project healthy without people derailing it
  922. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Well, it's impossible to find something that everyone will agree is the right equilibrium. For a given opinion on what constitutes the right equilibrium, it can be pretty easy to find the right one.
  923. # [21:00] <karlushi> whatever the chosen system, there will be benefits and issues. And some projects tend to ignore some voices for more velocity, but at the same time avoiding certain realities. But this is a discussion that philosophers have discussed for ages. I don't think we'll find the solutions today ;)
  924. # [21:02] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  925. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Nope, not likely. Everyone has to do whatever they think will be best.
  926. # [21:04] <karlushi> AryehGregor, first reasonable sentence of this chat.
  927. # [21:04] <karlushi> ;)
  928. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> Unfortunately, some people (including sometimes me) are not as considerate as they could be of other people's opinions on what course is best, and that's exacerbated by the WHATWG/W3C split. But we are where we are.
  929. # [21:05] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  930. # [21:14] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  931. # [21:17] <othermaciej> look, our little spat made Ajaxian: http://ajaxian.com/archives/adobe-html5-standards-blocking-and-the-evil-of-the-private-backroom
  932. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Wait, so was the objection that canvas wasn't in scope?
  933. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> I mean, that was the formal objection being referred to?
  934. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> (et al.)
  935. # [21:23] <othermaciej> honestly I am not entirely sure of the content or form of the objection
  936. # [21:30] * Quits: Sidnicious (~Sidney@pdpc/supporter/professional/sidney) (Quit: Sidnicious)
  937. # [21:32] * Joins: dglazkov_ (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-basddufsoubdvkuh)
  938. # [21:33] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-ryogzclwgfyuoywy)
  939. # [21:33] <wycats> to be honest, I hope that's the argument
  940. # [21:34] <wycats> because it will expose Adobe to serious hurt
  941. # [21:34] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@2620:0:1000:1b01:21f:f3ff:fed0:dd49) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  942. # [21:34] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  943. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Well, Larry has made a lot of objections personally that seem unrelated to Adobe's interests.
  944. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Mostly they seem to be procedural, like this.
  945. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> If the real idea was to try throwing a spanner into canvas standardization to avoid competition with Flash or something, it seems pretty well disguised.
  946. # [21:35] <wycats> AryehGregor: "canvas is out of scope" is not procedural
  947. # [21:35] * AryehGregor will continue to assume good faith.
  948. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> I'd call it procedural. It's not saying there's anything *technically* wrong with the spec, just that its existence doesn't conform to some policy somewhere.
  949. # [21:36] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  950. # [21:36] <wycats> AryehGregor: it's procedural like saying HCR doesn't conform to reconciliation rules
  951. # [21:36] <wycats> it's TRUE
  952. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Er, what's HCR?
  953. # [21:36] <wycats> but you don't bring it up unless you want to block it for some other reason
  954. # [21:36] <wycats> health care reform
  955. # [21:36] <wycats> sorry
  956. # [21:36] <wycats> political analogy ;)
  957. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  958. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> . . .What are reconciliation rules?
  959. # [21:37] <wycats> ha
  960. # [21:37] <wycats> there are rules in the Senate that allow you to bypass the 60-vote filibuster rules for items related to the budget
  961. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  962. # [21:37] <wycats> there was some talk of trying to pass healthcare through those rules
  963. # [21:37] <wycats> but too much of it was unrelated to budget
  964. # [21:37] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  965. # [21:37] <wycats> but if someone objected on those grounds, they were really objecting to the bill
  966. # [21:40] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  967. # [21:41] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  968. # [21:44] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  969. # [21:45] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-66-64.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  970. # [21:50] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-7.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  971. # [21:53] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-basddufsoubdvkuh) (Remote host closed the connection)
  972. # [21:53] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-dcdutdharawnoxxg)
  973. # [22:02] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  974. # [22:05] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@y226086.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  975. # [22:13] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@ppp-3-229.leed-b-2.access.uk.tiscali.com)
  976. # [22:14] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  977. # [22:14] <karlushi> [proposed] Web Fonts Working Group Charter
  978. # [22:14] <karlushi> http://www.w3.org/2009/08/WebFonts/charter.html
  979. # [22:16] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@ppp-3-229.leed-b-2.access.uk.tiscali.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  980. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> karlushi: Man, where did *that* come from? I haven't seen any activity on the www-font list for some time.
  981. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> Looks good, though. Just what we discussed at the planning meeting.
  982. # [22:22] <Philip`> 2009/08? Sounds obsolete already
  983. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> That's definitely a strange date, since we didn't actually pin down any details until 09/11
  984. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> 2009/11, that is.
  985. # [22:25] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@h-212-11.A163.corp.bahnhof.se)
  986. # [22:28] * Joins: ojan (~ojan@2620:0:1002:1002:225:ff:feef:1010)
  987. # [22:29] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@h-212-11.A163.corp.bahnhof.se) (Client Quit)
  988. # [22:29] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@h-212-11.A163.corp.bahnhof.se)
  989. # [22:29] <karlushi> Philip`, dated space are identifiers not date.
  990. # [22:30] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.80)
  991. # [22:30] <karlushi> look at the bottom of the document $Date: 2010/02/11 19:43:34 $
  992. # [22:31] * Parts: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-mnqrnopuclvxxnbn)
  993. # [22:32] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben|errands
  994. # [22:34] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  995. # [22:34] <Dashiva> Wasn't there talk about finally getting rid of dates in the URLs?
  996. # [22:35] <Dashiva> Since it doesn't actually do anything except confuse people...
  997. # [22:35] <Dashiva> (same with dates in namespaces)
  998. # [22:35] <othermaciej> looks like that Ajaxian article made reddit
  999. # [22:35] <othermaciej> "are we having fun yet?"
  1000. # [22:36] <karlushi> Dashiva, what do you replace them with?
  1001. # [22:36] <Philip`> Nothing
  1002. # [22:36] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@h-212-11.A163.corp.bahnhof.se) (Quit: Leaving)
  1003. # [22:36] <Philip`> Just choose names that are unique within all names forever, rather than names that only have to be unique within all names chosen in that month
  1004. # [22:36] <Dashiva> Or a generic group name, e.g. /ns/ for namespaces
  1005. # [22:37] <karlushi> Philip`, http://w3.org/Nothing you mean ?
  1006. # [22:37] <wycats> othermaciej: of course
  1007. # [22:37] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@12.33.239.250) (Quit: paul_irish)
  1008. # [22:37] <karlushi> Philip`, on a long term no name is forever
  1009. # [22:37] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/WebFonts/charter.html etc
  1010. # [22:38] <karlushi> then in 2014, a new WebFonts WG. what do you do you had on top ? you call it WebFonts2/charter or Webfonts/charters2 ?
  1011. # [22:38] <Philip`> You don't call it the WebFonts WG
  1012. # [22:39] <karlushi> hehe
  1013. # [22:39] <karlushi> ok
  1014. # [22:39] <karlushi> next one is WWWFonts
  1015. # [22:39] <karlushi> then next one is
  1016. # [22:39] <karlushi> WWWPolice
  1017. # [22:39] <karlushi> and then… :)
  1018. # [22:40] <karlushi> btw, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Feb/0002
  1019. # [22:44] <Dashiva> Or you just reuse the name, and say that the group has had several incarnations
  1020. # [22:44] <Dashiva> Sort of like /html works today
  1021. # [22:48] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com)
  1022. # [22:51] <karlushi> html didn't reuse the name
  1023. # [22:51] <karlushi> it was previously http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/ ;)
  1024. # [22:52] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-ryogzclwgfyuoywy) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  1025. # [22:54] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-nuvozpuezkwadmrz)
  1026. # [22:54] <Philip`> A demonstration of how easy it is to find non-conflicting names that make sense :-)
  1027. # [22:55] <Dashiva> karlushi: Well, the current /html manages the multi-capacity role just fine
  1028. # [22:58] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  1029. # [22:58] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  1030. # [22:58] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  1031. # [22:59] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  1032. # [22:59] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-nuvozpuezkwadmrz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  1033. # [22:59] * Philip` discovers that const char* foo = "<bar baz=""/>"; doesn't do quite what he expected, even though the compiler is perfectly happy with it
  1034. # [23:00] <othermaciej> Philip`: it's a feature!
  1035. # [23:01] <jgraham> me wonders what that does
  1036. # [23:01] <ment> it really is :)
  1037. # [23:01] <jgraham> s////
  1038. # [23:02] <ment> 0 == strcmp("a" "b", "ab")
  1039. # [23:02] <othermaciej> two string literals that are adjacent to each other get concatenated
  1040. # [23:02] <othermaciej> it's useful because of macros
  1041. # [23:02] <othermaciej> but it is kind of evil
  1042. # [23:05] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  1043. # [23:06] <Philip`> It's useful for splitting long strings over multiple lines too
  1044. # [23:09] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1045. # [23:12] <Dashiva> I'd think a line-terminating \ is a lesser evil there, or a heredoc syntax
  1046. # [23:13] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@flim.org) (Quit: leaving)
  1047. # [23:13] <Lachy> The line-terminating \ should, ideally, be unnecessary. It's really inconvenient
  1048. # [23:14] <Lachy> but I think the only reason it exists is to ensure the author really meant for the string to continue, rather than an accidentally omitted quote
  1049. # [23:14] <Dashiva> Makes error messages nicer :)
  1050. # [23:14] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  1051. # [23:14] <Dashiva> But I agree it's horrible to use
  1052. # [23:16] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be better to have a compile-time-string-concatenation operator
  1053. # [23:16] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-207-42.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
  1054. # [23:16] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.100) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1055. # [23:17] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.100)
  1056. # [23:19] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  1057. # [23:20] <Hixie> which "big content companies" are involved in public-html but not whatwg?
  1058. # [23:20] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-60-105.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  1059. # [23:23] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@dslb-088-077-090-093.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  1060. # [23:29] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1061. # [23:31] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  1062. # [23:32] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: taf2)
  1063. # [23:44] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-dysdercyaaewsepz)
  1064. # [23:49] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  1065. # [23:51] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.66) (Quit: Leaving...)
  1066. # [23:56] * Quits: wycats (~yehudakat@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1067. # [23:59] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  1068. # [23:59] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-150-191.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  1069. # [23:59] * Joins: hz (~hz@125.166.39.13)
  1070. # Session Close: Sat Feb 13 00:00:00 2010

The end :)