/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 03 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:03] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: can't you just put position:relative on the TD?
  6. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Nope. Not working in FF3.6, at least. It *should* work, but it's not.
  7. # [00:04] <othermaciej> roc: we're probably gonna support double-clicking WOFF fonts to install them, same as for OpenType
  8. # [00:04] <othermaciej> roc: if only because it would be extra work not to
  9. # [00:04] <othermaciej> so we see WOFF as pure waste
  10. # [00:05] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I know Firefox has a problem with the table not being eligible to be a containing block for absolute positioned content, did not know there was an issue with cells
  11. # [00:06] <roc> cells don't necessarily support relative positioning in CSS 2.1
  12. # [00:06] <roc> "The effect of 'position:relative' on table-row-group, table-header-group, table-footer-group, table-row, table-column-group, table-column, table-cell, and table-caption elements is undefined."
  13. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Argh, that is stupid and wrong.
  14. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Presumably bugwards compatibility.
  15. # [00:06] <paul_irish> othermaciej: seriously? doubleclick to install woff fonts?
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  17. # [00:07] <othermaciej> it's what we do for OpenType
  18. # [00:07] <othermaciej> and our easiest path to WOFF is to treat them same as any other font in the font system
  19. # [00:07] <roc> I'm surprised that that's the easiest thing to do, but OK
  20. # [00:08] <othermaciej> well, we could have a layer to translate from WOFF to TrueType in WebKit, if we were specifically motivated to prevent these fonts from working in apps that don't use WebKit for display
  21. # [00:08] <othermaciej> though increasingly more apps use WebKit for display, so that wouldn't even be very effective
  22. # [00:09] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: no, just the fact that tables are underdefined in CSS
  23. # [00:09] <roc> I don't see how your support work work if it doesn't do that. You'd add WOFF support to Quartz?
  24. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Indeed, they are. And that's stupid and wrong. ^_^
  25. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Long-term goal: overdefine CSS.
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  27. # [00:10] <roc> it looks like Webkit doesn't actually support relative positioning on table cells
  28. # [00:11] <roc> but position:relative still makes the cell a container for abs-pos elements
  29. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Argleasdjf;alf
  30. # [00:11] <roc> oh hang on
  31. # [00:11] <roc> Webkit behaves exactly like Firefox here
  32. # [00:12] <roc> totally ignores position:relative on cells
  33. # [00:12] <othermaciej> that's believable
  34. # [00:12] <roc> the cell doesn't become an abs-pos container
  35. # [00:12] <roc> ok, everyone move along
  36. # [00:12] <othermaciej> seems like it is useful to make a cell be an absolute positioned containing block
  37. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> It is very useful.
  38. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> I am making a calendar right now which could use it.
  39. # [00:12] <othermaciej> roc: same parts of the system that support OpenType/TrueType would support WOFF
  40. # [00:13] <othermaciej> on Mac
  41. # [00:13] <othermaciej> at least that is our current tentative plan
  42. # [00:13] <roc> ok
  43. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> <td><div height:100%; position:relative;>foo</div></td> works, but is obviously stupid.
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  45. # [00:16] <roc> I presume, though, you must have some support in Webkit for font formats, since you need it for SVG fonts, so I presume you have some good reason to not add WOFF support there (since all ports would benefit from that)
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  47. # [00:17] <roc> (now SVG fonts --- *that*'s a pure waste :-) )
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  49. # [00:17] <Rik`> iirc, the iphone only supports svg fonts :(
  50. # [00:21] <othermaciej> roc: we might also add it there for ports where we can't change the font system, but on operating systems controlled by Apple the long-term goal would be to make it just another font format
  51. # [00:21] <othermaciej> the iPhone only supports SVG fonts as Web fonts, currently anyway
  52. # [00:22] <Rik`> othermaciej: do you know why ?
  53. # [00:22] <roc> that's unfortunate, since SVG fonts are pretty bad
  54. # [00:22] <othermaciej> Rik`: still evaluating security / bandwidth / perf impact of OpenType
  55. # [00:22] <othermaciej> it may change in the future, it may not, that is all I can say
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  58. # [00:23] <othermaciej> interesting side note: some iTunes LPs and iTunes Extras use SVG fonts
  59. # [00:23] <roc> do you know why?
  60. # [00:23] <othermaciej> as a cheapass way to do subsetting
  61. # [00:23] <roc> weird
  62. # [00:26] <Rik`> why supporting OTF on the Mac if there is still a security evaluation on the iPhone ?
  63. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> At the upcoming CSS ftf, we're totally going to have to reintroduce display-role and display-model (though maybe as -outside and -inside, to be more intuitive).
  64. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Otherwise, how will I ever make a table-cell also use Template Layout?
  65. # [00:31] <roc> I think I'd like that
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  68. # [00:32] * TabAtkins wants to use Template and Flexbox, or their spiritual successors, *so bad*.
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  77. # [00:40] <Philip`> Rik`: Maybe security is stricter on the iPhone than on the Mac, because it needs to prevent users doing dastardly things such as choosing to run unauthorised programs
  78. # [00:40] <Philip`> (Or maybe there's more sensible reasons)
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  137. # [04:07] <MikeSmithX> Hixie: about shortnames on for the WDs to publish tomorrow, annevk mentioned "I believe we decided that md would be microdata", but I can't recall a decision about that. Can you?
  138. # [04:15] <othermaciej> MikeSmithX: hmm, the TransReq asked for approval of a new shortname but did not cite the shortname
  139. # [04:15] <othermaciej> I do recall discussing "microdata" as the shortname
  140. # [04:16] <MikeSmithX> othermaciej: well, I think it would be an improvement for clarity to use it as the shortname instead
  141. # [04:16] <othermaciej> I think so too
  142. # [04:16] <MikeSmithX> also, another issue is the URI "http://www.w3.org/TR/markup/"
  143. # [04:17] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  144. # [04:17] <othermaciej> our approval does not seem to have record of a shortname, nor was Sam specific about what shortname he was requesting
  145. # [04:17] <othermaciej> yeah H:TML probably should not use that as a shortname
  146. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> yeah, the lack of explicit mention of the shortname requests was my fault for not making it clear to Sam that they needed to be included
  147. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> about H:TML, I suggest we request http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/ instead
  148. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> about microdata, I suggest we consider qualifying that short name further as well
  149. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> I we want consistency with the existing RDFa shortname, it would be http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata-in-html/
  150. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> if we don't care too much about consistency, http://www.w3.org/TR/html-microdata/
  151. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> and perhaps http://www.w3.org/TR/canvas-2dcontext/
  152. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> or even http://www.w3.org/TR/canvas-2d/
  153. # [04:22] <othermaciej> html-microdata is getting kinda long for a short name
  154. # [04:22] <othermaciej> I would say just microdata - if there are other specs to disambiguate later, they can get a longer name
  155. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> OK
  156. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> how about "2dcontext"?
  157. # [04:22] <othermaciej> canvas-2d or canvas2d sounds better to me than 2dcontext, if not qualified otherwise
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  159. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> OK
  160. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> I can send mail to the webmaster (reply to Sam's pub request) shortly
  161. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: are you OK with http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/ ?
  162. # [04:24] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: what shortname does the diffs document get published with?
  163. # [04:24] <othermaciej> just for comparison
  164. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/
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  167. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> <twitter!squaredeye> .@w3c Are their any specs in future releases of CSS for blending modes with colors?
  168. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> ...not sure what the even means
  169. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: ↑
  170. # [04:29] <othermaciej> html-markup sounds ok to me
  171. # [04:29] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: maybe he means ability to do Porter-Duff compositing operations other than SrcOver?
  172. # [04:29] <othermaciej> or, like, photoshop blend modes, like dodge and burn
  173. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> ah
  174. # [04:32] <TabAtkins> Mikesmith: Not sure what the dude means, but othermaciej seems like he has a decent handle on it.
  175. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> OK
  176. # [04:32] <TabAtkins> Assuming that's approximately right, then no.
  177. # [04:33] <TabAtkins> At least, nothing in the pipeline about how colors blend.
  178. # [04:33] <othermaciej> blend modes are not really a color issue so he might just be confused
  179. # [04:33] <TabAtkins> If you can reply and ask for more details, I can give a better answer.
  180. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> maybe he meant more like "blending modes, with colors" .. though not really clear, either
  181. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: yeah, I will
  182. # [04:34] <TabAtkins> Back to Mass Effect and beer. Basically the best night possible.
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  184. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> ah, I now notice he also tweeted, ".@webkit are their any experiments with blending modes (ie: multiply) with colors in the browser?"
  185. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: what's Mass Effect?
  186. # [04:35] <othermaciej> I assume he means blend modes then
  187. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
  188. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/squaredeye
  189. # [04:36] <othermaciej> and we do have -webkit-background-composite
  190. # [04:36] <othermaciej> to set the compositing mode
  191. # [04:36] <othermaciej> in addition to having different compositing modes in canvas
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  194. # [04:43] <paul_irish> othermaciej: earlier on the WOFF topic.. i just wanted to clarify.. you said it'd be easier to just make woff fonts installable on mac os, right?
  195. # [04:44] <othermaciej> paul_irish: it is simpler for us to treat them like any other font than to try to make the font system only handle them for WebKit
  196. # [04:45] <paul_irish> roger that. i'm just kinda wtf'ing because i thought the intention of the woff format was to avoid a trivial-to-install scenario
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  198. # [04:45] <othermaciej> I'm sure that is some people's intent, I don't think there is any such requirement in the spec though
  199. # [04:46] <paul_irish> hehe. this is true. :)
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  201. # [04:47] <paul_irish> othermaciej: is it okay if i mention this to some webfont friends of mine?
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  206. # [04:56] <othermaciej> paul_irish: then it might sounds like I am making a commitment about future Apple products, which I definitely am not
  207. # [04:56] <othermaciej> we haven't even started on implementing WOFF yet
  208. # [04:57] <paul_irish> gotcha.
  209. # [04:57] <paul_irish> my expectation is that people wont be very pleased. :)
  210. # [04:57] <othermaciej> I can't even commit to implementing it at all ever
  211. # [04:57] <paul_irish> k. thanks much.
  212. # [04:58] <othermaciej> if we do, then I am not sure we have huge motive to make such fonts hard to install
  213. # [04:58] <othermaciej> if we end up participating in the WG then we may be able to discuss our plans
  214. # [04:58] <othermaciej> in more specifics
  215. # [04:58] <othermaciej> if we have plans by then
  216. # [04:58] <paul_irish> aye
  217. # [04:58] <othermaciej> I expect font people are most worried about piracy on Windows
  218. # [04:58] <othermaciej> Windows is the main platform where piracy happens, from what I hear
  219. # [04:59] <othermaciej> at least for other media
  220. # [04:59] <paul_irish> i pirate on mac all the time. :)
  221. # [04:59] <miketaylr> shhhh
  222. # [04:59] <paul_irish> oh fu-
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  226. # [05:07] <jcranmer> most people I know don't like macs
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  228. # [05:10] <paul_irish> especially not after today. sheesh
  229. # [05:16] <othermaciej> why, did a Mac go rogue and kill its trainer today?
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  253. # [06:26] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect
  254. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I see.. glad it's not this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_effect_(medicine)
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  257. # [06:31] <TabAtkins> Heh, indeed.
  258. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> hmm, I don't think Jonas's assertion that "Validation only checks for a certain, very limited, types of errors." is entirely accurate
  259. # [06:40] <othermaciej> it only checks for syntax errors
  260. # [06:40] <othermaciej> not other kinds of errors
  261. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> I would not classify syntax errors as "very limited types of errors"
  262. # [06:42] <othermaciej> Jonas is probably speaking from the programmer's perspective
  263. # [06:42] <othermaciej> the errors we spend most of our time dealing with are not syntax errors
  264. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> right, I understand that
  265. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> but a markup validator is essentially a lint checker
  266. # [06:43] <othermaciej> right
  267. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> a static checker
  268. # [06:44] <othermaciej> I think static checkers, lint-like tools, and validators are all awesome things
  269. # [06:44] <othermaciej> yet I agree with Jonas that the errors they can find are but a subset of the possible interesting errors
  270. # [06:44] <othermaciej> though, for document-like content it's probably a higher fraction of errors you may care about
  271. # [06:45] <othermaciej> than for app-type content
  272. # [06:45] <othermaciej> we compile WebKit at a crazy high warning level
  273. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> yeah, agreed
  274. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> checking/validating the initial markup of some particular a Web app that changes state is of limited usefulness
  275. # [07:01] <othermaciej> our warning flags: -Werror -Wmissing-prototypes -Wnon-virtual-dtor -Wnewline-eof -Wall -Wextra -Wcast-align -Wcast-qual -Wchar-subscripts -Wextra-tokens -Wformat=2 -Winit-self -Wmissing-format-attribute -Wmissing-noreturn -Wpacked -Wpointer-arith -Wredundant-decls -Wundef -Wwrite-strings -Wno-trigraphs
  276. # [07:01] <othermaciej> (-Werror makes the build break if someone violates one of these)
  277. # [07:05] <JonathanNeal> Hey all
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  283. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I realize that the TAG specifically suggested a RelaxNG schema and that it should be an appendix to the H:TML document
  284. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> and that may be what they think they want
  285. # [07:39] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I just filed the bug based on what they said - if something else would make them happy, I have no complaint
  286. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> but I don't think that's what they really want
  287. # [07:40] <othermaciej> actually, I'll go farther - I don't even care if we do make them happy, as long as they get the same due process right to be heard as anyone else
  288. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> OK, well, if we keep that bug summary as specifically adding and appendix with and RelaxNG schema to the H:TML doc, then what I am inclined to do is change it to resolved/wontfix with a comment that I don't plan to add it
  289. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> I dunno, maybe that's the best way to do it
  290. # [07:42] <othermaciej> or you could make it "partially accepted" with a resolution of doing something different than what was asked
  291. # [07:42] <othermaciej> or you could get the TAG's agreement on repurposing the bug
  292. # [07:42] <othermaciej> many options
  293. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> OK, yeah, I suppose I should follow up with them about it directly on the TAG list
  294. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> I will suggest to them that we repurpose that bug
  295. # [07:46] <othermaciej> do you have a concrete alternate approach in mind?
  296. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: not really
  297. # [07:50] <othermaciej> hmm
  298. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> well, not short of just publishing the set of formalisms
  299. # [07:50] <othermaciej> I probably shouldn't be the first vote on these accessibility surveys
  300. # [07:51] <othermaciej> is there a way to delete my answer?
  301. # [07:51] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah
  302. # [07:51] <othermaciej> ah, there is
  303. # [07:51] <MikeSmith> that brings to mind one other thing I wanted to ask about
  304. # [07:52] <othermaciej> I will register my opinion later if it seems appropriate
  305. # [07:52] <othermaciej> I do like both proposals
  306. # [07:52] <Hixie> MikeSmith: there are short names assumed in the various drafts, look at the "current version" urls
  307. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I think it's likely we will get agreement to proceed with those
  308. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: looking now
  309. # [07:53] <othermaciej> yeah, I am just looking to be supportive
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  311. # [07:53] <othermaciej> but I do not want to inadvertently influence people for or against too much
  312. # [07:53] <othermaciej> I gotta go
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  315. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ah, OK
  316. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> "microdata" seems fine, but I already sent mail suggesting "canvas-2d", so I guess I need to wait unless/until anybody replies to that
  317. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> if PLH or nobody else thinks it needs to be changed, then we can just leave it as-is
  318. # [07:58] <Hixie> canvas-2d is a bit misleading since there's no canvas element in the spec :-)
  319. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I don't think the shortname necessarily implies it's a spec for the canvas element
  320. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> and the abstract does read, "This specification defines the 2D Context for the HTML canvas element.
  321. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> and the abstract does read, "This specification defines the 2D Context for the HTML canvas element"
  322. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> oops
  323. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> anyway
  324. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> I don't feel strongly about it
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  326. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> it's just that I let the genie out of the bottle already, as far as having proposed it, so I need to wait to see what the responses are
  327. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> I guess
  328. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: anyway, I wanted to say something related to Maciej's comment that he probably should not be the first vote on the accessibility surveys
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  330. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: which is, I think if you genuinely want to help reduce the amount of unproductive discussion on the public-html list, one thing you can consider doing more of is waiting to post replies on threads that you know are going to be contentious
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  333. # [08:09] <nessy> othermaciej: I made the mess larger by replying to your questions on the a11y list :-)
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  337. # [08:26] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i almost always do
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  340. # [08:28] <nessy> foolip: do you think the media track API is not ready yet?
  341. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK. I think even it non-contentious it helps others to allow time for some people form their own opinions
  342. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> *non-contentious discussions
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  348. # [08:54] <Hixie> MikeSmith: in general i only respond to threads weeks after they've finished, because i just stuff all incoming e-mail into my folders
  349. # [08:54] <Hixie> MikeSmith: actually for public-html mail now i tend to just not reply at all, and just wait for a bug to be filed
  350. # [08:54] <Hixie> occasionally there are exceptions, of course, like when someone asks me a question directly
  351. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that sounds reasonable to me
  352. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> we need to get the overall list traffic down on public-html
  353. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> I think moving more discussions to bugzilla is one good way to do that
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  355. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> and encouraging people to comment in bugzilla instead
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  441. # [13:17] <asmodai> mmm
  442. # [13:17] <asmodai> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/02/virgin_america_html_flash/
  443. # [13:17] <asmodai> Guess that made the rounds too?
  444. # [13:20] <annevk> not on this channel
  445. # [13:21] <asmodai> Hadn't seen it in my scrollback buffer, but hey, could've missed it. :)
  446. # [13:24] <boblet> anyone have an opinion on using <dl> for forms? (<dt> for labels, <dd> for <input> etc)
  447. # [13:26] * hsivonen wishes Lufthansa dropped Flash, too
  448. # [13:26] <Philip`> boblet: Why not use <label> for labels and <input> for <input>?
  449. # [13:27] <boblet> Philip`: sorry, I meant putting <label> in <td> etc
  450. # [13:27] <boblet> sheesh
  451. # [13:27] <Philip`> Seems like anything else is just a presentation concern
  452. # [13:27] <boblet> in <dt>
  453. # [13:28] <boblet> Philip`: agreed, but replying to the latest HTML5Doctor Q&A, and wondering why <dl> feels wrong for me (I’d say a list, or maybe a table for a very complex form, eg multi-col)
  454. # [13:29] <Philip`> "Virgin anticipates moving this new site to HTML 5, once it's cleared standards ratification at the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)" - in 2022?
  455. # [13:30] <boblet> I was impressed they were using it as a buzzword
  456. # [13:30] <Philip`> "the vast majority of web content [...] are built using [Flash]" - huh?
  457. # [13:30] <boblet> HTML5 = Web 2.1? or Web 3.0? ;-)
  458. # [13:31] * Joins: Utkarsh (Utkarsh@117.99.74.193)
  459. # [13:33] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah, the grammar in that quote sounds all wrong
  460. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> hey lazychannel, what's the hg command-line syntax for pulling a specific revision in mercurial?
  461. # [13:33] <hsivonen> hg pull -r 431432421 -u
  462. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
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  476. # [14:11] <zcorpan> http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2010/03/03/everything-you-need-to-know-about-html5-video-and-audio-2
  477. # [14:11] <zcorpan> hmm, i managed to screw up the url. oh well
  478. # [14:11] <gsnedders> n00b
  479. # [14:16] <Philip`> Cool URIs don't change, but screwed up URIs should change so that they become cool
  480. # [14:17] * Joins: mut (~mut@host86-176-140-55.range86-176.btcentralplus.com)
  481. # [14:17] <mut> hello
  482. # [14:17] <boblet> I dunno, I think you could add some more keywords in there yet
  483. # [14:17] <boblet> hey mut
  484. # [14:18] <mut> im trying to make a site with canvas
  485. # [14:18] <mut> well its all working pretty well for me so far
  486. # [14:18] <boblet> zcorpan: what about adding -ogg-vorbis-h264 at the end?
  487. # [14:18] <mut> but im using .translate(), i just wondered how do you reset the origin to 0,0 and clear the canvas?
  488. # [14:22] <mut> like im drawing something based on user interaction based on a form, but when they select something, i wanna clear the canvas, and start again
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  490. # [14:24] <mut> ah if i change/reset the width/height of the canvas it "resets" the canvas... :)
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  492. # [14:26] <Philip`> mut: Usually you should use save()/restore() to reset the origin
  493. # [14:26] <Philip`> and clearRect to clear the bitmap
  494. # [14:26] <Philip`> though if you really want to reset the entire canvas then changing size will work too
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  496. # [14:29] <mut> oh
  497. # [14:29] <mut> save() restore()
  498. # [14:29] <mut> hmm ill take a look
  499. # [14:30] <mut> so i save() when the canvas is clear, and then do restore()?
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  501. # [14:32] <Philip`> They don't affect the canvas bitmap at all
  502. # [14:32] <Philip`> save() just remembers the current origin transformations, fill styles, etc
  503. # [14:32] <Philip`> and restore() resets them back to the last saved values
  504. # [14:32] <Philip`> Oh, wait
  505. # [14:32] <Philip`> That's what you said
  506. # [14:32] <Dashiva> Wow, Jobs actually called animating an object "original technology"?
  507. # [14:33] <mut> ok
  508. # [14:33] <Philip`> so, yes :-)
  509. # [14:33] <mut> errm but when i try that, the canvas dosent clear
  510. # [14:33] <mut> oh i nead to clearrect toto
  511. # [14:33] <mut> too
  512. # [14:33] <mut> heh
  513. # [14:33] <Dashiva> Is clearrect cheaper than .width = .width?
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  515. # [14:34] <Philip`> Dashiva: Yes, in theory, because it has to do less work
  516. # [14:34] <Philip`> (although implementations might be suboptimal and do more work in the common case, in order to handle more general cases)
  517. # [14:35] <mut> philip, i have used transform to move things around, but i want to reset the origin to the canvas 0,0
  518. # [14:35] <mut> err can i give you a link?
  519. # [14:35] <Philip`> Sure
  520. # [14:36] <mut> cheers
  521. # [14:36] <mut> it just keeps stacking images
  522. # [14:36] <mut> if that makes sense
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  524. # [14:39] <Philip`> It's probably best to not call ctx.save in init(), and instead make the drawStairs function do "ctx.clearRect(...); ctx.save(); ...do all the drawing...; ctx.restore()"
  525. # [14:39] <mut> ok
  526. # [14:40] * Disconnected
  527. # [14:41] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  528. # [14:41] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  529. # [14:41] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  530. # [14:41] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  531. # [14:41] <Philip`> That way the canvas would always be in a 'normal' state, except temporarily while it's inside the drawing function (where it'll mess around with the state but it'll restore everything at the end)
  532. # [14:42] <mut> ok thats almost there :) cheers
  533. # [14:43] <mut> heh wierd, its just messing up on one small thing now
  534. # [14:43] <mut> thanks for that philip, *back to work
  535. # [14:43] <mut> :)
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  537. # [14:55] <Creap> What would you suggest to use to accomplish something like <nobr>, for instance to keep the unit on the same row when writing "10 GB"
  538. # [14:55] <Creap> any particular element or just a span with some custom class
  539. # [14:56] <Creap> or 10&nbsp;GB?
  540. # [14:56] <Philip`> "&pound;10" :-)
  541. # [14:57] <Philip`> Oops
  542. # [14:57] <Philip`> I thought you said GBP
  543. # [14:57] * Philip` isn't good at reading today
  544. # [14:58] <Creap> hehe
  545. # [14:58] <Philip`> nbsp seems to me the semantically appropriate thing when you really want a space that doesn't break
  546. # [14:59] <Philip`> though maybe it renders narrower than you'd want
  547. # [14:59] <Creap> true, I didn't even think of that, &nbsp; makes the eyes bleed because of the misuse
  548. # [14:59] <Creap> or well, I thought of that, but not until I've already asked ;)
  549. # [15:00] <Philip`> I wouldn't really recommend using &nbsp; for layout purposes, but it sounds like a good fit here :-)
  550. # [15:02] <jgraham> You can always insert a literal U+00A0 character. That would be less ugly, but possibly also harder to maintain
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  552. # [15:08] <asmodai> zcorpan: Mmm, looks like my.opera.com has some issues now.
  553. # [15:09] <zcorpan> yeah, i noticed. maybe my post was too long
  554. # [15:09] <asmodai> zcorpan: Oh noes! You broke it
  555. # [15:10] <asmodai> Ah, there it is again
  556. # [15:10] <karlcow> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/02/virgin_america_html_flash/print.html
  557. # [15:10] <mut> hey philip any chance of 1 more quick piece of advice?
  558. # [15:11] <mut> same again, but it all works
  559. # [15:11] <mut> except the bottom part of the drawing dosent reset
  560. # [15:11] <mut> its bizzare
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  562. # [15:11] <asmodai> zcorpan: Guess you guys moved away from Python/Genshi for it nowadays?
  563. # [15:12] <zcorpan> asmodai: i have no idea what's used for my.opera
  564. # [15:12] <asmodai> Shoot
  565. # [15:12] <asmodai> I know it was Python with Genshi at one point, since I had some contact with the dev guys on your side
  566. # [15:13] <zcorpan> ah
  567. # [15:13] <gsnedders> asmodai: my.opera uses Perl
  568. # [15:14] * zcorpan gotta go catch a train
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  570. # [15:20] <asmodai> ah, sorry
  571. # [15:20] <asmodai> was widgets.opera.com
  572. # [15:20] <asmodai> gsnedders: http://my.opera.com/WebApplications/blog/2008/02/07/widgets-opera-com-2-0
  573. # [15:20] <gsnedders> asmodai: Yeah, that uses Python
  574. # [15:21] <asmodai> Still does?
  575. # [15:21] <gsnedders> Yeah
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  577. # [15:24] <Philip`> mut: Hmm, that might be because you're calling clearRect after having called scale, so the cleared area will be scaled too, so it might not be covering the whole canvas
  578. # [15:27] <mut> hmmm
  579. # [15:27] <mut> ok cheers
  580. # [15:27] <mut> ill take a look
  581. # [15:29] <mut> philip` I dont think its that, because, it seems to leave behind the last drawing of the bottom tread
  582. # [15:29] <mut> if that makes sense
  583. # [15:29] <mut> so whereever it was last, gets left behing
  584. # [15:29] <mut> sometimes the new one is further down than that
  585. # [15:30] <mut> (although im sure that the scale thing isnt helping :)
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  594. # [15:36] <Philip`> mut: Not sure if this is the problem, but I think you need to call beginPath more
  595. # [15:37] <Philip`> Typically you should always do "beginPath(); moveTo and lineTo etc to set up the path; fill() or stroke();"
  596. # [15:37] <mut> oh ok
  597. # [15:37] <Philip`> because fill/stroke don't reset the current path, so it will continue to exist for your next path-drawing operation
  598. # [15:37] <Philip`> and so you'll keep building up a longer and longer path, and keep refilling/restroking the early parts lots of times
  599. # [15:38] <Philip`> e.g. in the drawStairRun loop
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  605. # [15:38] <Philip`> and it looks like that'll also be drawing the bits of path left over from the end of the previous time you redrew the screen
  606. # [15:38] <mut> Ok, ill go and have a look (only found canvas this morning! so Im on the bottom of the learning curve) ill go and sort out the beginpath stuff out first and see if that helps
  607. # [15:38] <Philip`> so beginPath should help :-)
  608. # [15:38] <mut> ok ta
  609. # [15:40] <mut> Im liking this canvas stuff, all the functions like .arc etc are very similar to CNC coding, so its coming quite quickly to me
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  611. # [15:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/03/02/how-ie8-determines-document-mode.aspx
  612. # [15:42] <paul_irish> i was kinda curious why they were replicating henri's flowchart two years later...
  613. # [15:43] <paul_irish> like they forgot to hit the publish button on this one?
  614. # [15:44] <Rik|work> I think they're trying to prove that "a picture is worth a thousand words" is a wrong adage
  615. # [15:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: interesting. I need to verify that my flowchart matches
  616. # [15:45] <mut> Philip` sorted, thanks
  617. # [15:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think they have a few things you don't and you have a few things that they don't
  618. # [15:49] <Philip`> mut: Good :-)
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  622. # [15:56] <hsivonen> paul_irish: maybe they didn't forget to publish it earlier but it took this long to map the thing out :-)
  623. # [15:57] <paul_irish> hahaha
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  625. # [16:00] <Philip`> Word and Excel really ought to detect when you're pressing printscreen and disable the spelling/grammar checker underlines
  626. # [16:01] <lazni> I think a lower level thingy catches the pressing
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  628. # [16:05] <mut> i always hit print preview before i printscreen cus of that
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  632. # [16:29] <karlcow> 77% of French people do not understand the ballot screen for browsers http://www.silicon.fr/fr/news/2010/03/02/une_majorite_d_internautes_ne_connait_pas_le_ballot_screen_de_microsoft
  633. # [16:31] <Philip`> 23% understand the concept of web browser choice? That's much higher than I'd expect
  634. # [16:34] <mut> :P
  635. # [16:34] <jgraham> Philip`: That's roughly the same percentaqge that already use something other than IE I expect
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  637. # [16:37] <Philip`> jgraham: I thought most of those only used not-IE because a family member installed Firefox for them and set it as the default
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  692. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> So, hey, does anyone know of any examples of video on the web that are *not* done through <video> or plugins?
  693. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> I don't know if this actually exists or not.
  694. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> And more specifically, if it *does* exist, does it act like <video> with respect to letter-boxing when the container isn't the right size? Or does it try and fully scale itself like an image would?
  695. # [19:08] <Philip`> You mean native browser support for videos?
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  697. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> I guess. Not sure. Hakon says there is some. I doubt this.
  698. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> It's the point upon which our argument was hinging on today in the conf call.
  699. # [19:09] <Philip`> There's animated GIFs
  700. # [19:09] <Philip`> Maybe also http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533606(VS.85).aspx
  701. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> They resize like images, right?
  702. # [19:10] * TabAtkins has several animated gifs on hand, and can check.
  703. # [19:10] <Philip`> I don't know what else exists that isn't <embed>/<object>, though
  704. # [19:10] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Yes, they're just the same as any image
  705. # [19:10] <Philip`> (at least when you use them in <img>)
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  707. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  709. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> Ah, nobody cares about HTML+TIME.
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  711. # [19:11] <Philip`> Seems strange to hinge an argument on the behaviour of clearly obscure technologies where you don't even know if they exist :-)
  712. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> Well, if they *do* exist, we have to add a new value that means "do whatever is appropriate for the media". If they don't, then the existing ones are fine.
  713. # [19:13] <Philip`> Why do we have to do what they do?
  714. # [19:13] <Philip`> <video> will fail to support a load of things that people do already
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  718. # [19:14] <Philip`> (When you say "plugins", do you just mean Flash, or do you also mean to exclude things like WMP/QuickTime/RealPlayer plugins that were used before Flash video came along?)
  719. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> Anything that would invoke the plugin architecture.
  720. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> Also, sorry, was referring to a CSS discussion, not HTML.
  721. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> Specifically, the image-fit property, which determines how replaced content scales in its content box.
  722. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> So, those other things you mentioned count as plugins.
  723. # [19:16] <Philip`> Oh
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  727. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> Hm. I need to eat a distinctly Texan lunch today, since it will be one of my last few before I move. Wonder where I should go?
  728. # [19:21] <Philip`> I suggest going to Texas
  729. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> Step 1: Done.
  730. # [19:22] <Philip`> Sounds like you're well on the way to having a genuine Texan lunch, then
  731. # [19:23] <TabAtkins> I also need to finally go buy myself a cowboy hat tonight, since it is a conspicuous lack in my life.
  732. # [19:23] <TabAtkins> Gotta play up the "y'all" and "ma'am" when I move.
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  768. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, what exactly is the relationship between validator.nu and validator.w3.org? Could my problem be fixed in validator.nu and it would also work on the W3C validator? The latter is the one that most people use.
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  770. # [21:21] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: the current W3C validator is essentially a Perl script that wraps around James Clark's old C-based "sp" validation engine, which is an SGML tool that does DTD-based validation. if it either encounters a <!doctype html> doctype or is manually told to check a doc as HTM5, what that perl script does is, it uses the validator.nu REST API to validate the document, then processes the results of that and reports them
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  772. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> Oh, so it's literally requesting results from validator.nu, not just running the same software? Interesting.
  773. # [21:23] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: no, actually, to be precise, it's usually a locally-installed headless instance of the validator.nu backend
  774. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  775. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> It seems like I'd want 1) validator.nu to say it's valid HTML5 if it is, even with a confusing doctype, and 2) the Perl script to try passing things to validator.nu if it has an obsolete but conforming doctype but doesn't validate according to that doctype.
  776. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> Does that sound right?
  777. # [21:24] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: yeah
  778. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> Okay, thanks.
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  780. # [21:25] <MikeSmith> but I would not recommend calling those doctypes "obsolete but conforming" in discussions on the qa-dev and www-validator lists
  781. # [21:26] <MikeSmith> you would likely just get people taking issue with that wording rather than listening to what you're proposing
  782. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Er, okay.
  783. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> That's the term the HTML5 spec uses, right?
  784. # [21:27] <MikeSmith> right, but even the intent of that is the specific context of HTML4
  785. # [21:27] <MikeSmith> *HTML5
  786. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> there are lot of people who don't care about validating their documents as HTML5 at this point and who may never want to change or update their content to get it validate against HTML5, if it's already valid HTML4 or XHTML1
  787. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> which is fine
  788. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Right. I'd say only kick it to validator.nu if it fails validation under the given doctype.
  789. # [21:30] <MikeSmith> even in that case, I don't think you will get a warm reception if you propose that it does that automatically, or especially if it does it without reporting their errors against whatever doctype the document actually uses
  790. # [21:31] <MikeSmith> for one thing, it would mean validation of every invalid document would take longer, because it would get automatically checked twice
  791. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> Maybe we could use a secret code, like adding <!-- html5 --> right after the doctype to trigger HTML5 validation mode?
  792. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> Hacky, but it would be a lot simpler, I imagine.
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  795. # [21:33] <MikeSmith> icky indeed
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  797. # [21:34] <MikeSmith> I don't know what the target users would be who would take the time to do that
  798. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Or could the HTML5 obsolete-but-conforming doctypes be modified so that they specify the same DTD/entities, but are not actually conforming HTML4 or whatever?
  799. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Take the time to do what?
  800. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> I'd do it in MediaWiki, that's my concern here. The current setup has MediaWiki not validating even if it's valid HTML5, if in well-formed XML mode.
  801. # [21:35] <MikeSmith> I meant, take the time to add a special-purpose comment like that
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  805. # [21:35] <MikeSmith> but I think you'd get a warmer reception if the suggestion were for an opt-in mechanism that prompts users to choose whether they want to re-validate the doc at HTML5 or not
  806. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> I meant, I'll add the comment to MediaWiki if it's the only way to validate.
  807. # [21:35] <MikeSmith> I see
  808. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> I'm concerned about people sticking the page in the validator and getting a "This document is invalid!"
  809. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Nobody's going to notice a revalidate button unless it's unreasonably prominent.
  810. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> (since most such documents will not be valid HTML5 either)
  811. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> I don't know much about doctypes -- is there some way to make the doctype invalid HTML4/XHTML1 while still keeping the same behavior in browsers and other XML processors?
  812. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Or is every part that's specified essential?
  813. # [21:37] <MikeSmith> I don't think there's any way to do that, no
  814. # [21:37] * AryehGregor thinks it all looks essential, although he doesn't understand all of it.
  815. # [21:38] <MikeSmith> only thing I can think of is that SGML does not require the system ID
  816. # [21:39] <MikeSmith> that is, the URI part in the doctype
  817. # [21:39] <MikeSmith> the second quoted string
  818. # [21:39] <MikeSmith> it only needs to first
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  820. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> That's necessary for XML validators to figure out the entities, though.
  821. # [21:39] <MikeSmith> leaving off the system ID makes it invalid XML
  822. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  823. # [21:39] <MikeSmith> actually, non-well-formed XML, I gues
  824. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> Well, a comment would be hacky, but I had actually thought of it earlier anyway, because it will also serve to inform human readers that the document is actually HTML5.
  825. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Lest they get confused.
  826. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Do you think that would stand a chance of getting approved?
  827. # [21:40] <MikeSmith> I very much doubt it
  828. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Bleh.
  829. # [21:40] <MikeSmith> I think most people consider specialized comments of that kind to be an anti-pattern
  830. # [21:41] <MikeSmith> that's the kind of thing that SGML/XML processing instructions are meant for
  831. # [21:41] <MikeSmith> but such processing instructions are not valid in HTML5, for good reasons
  832. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Can you think of anything else that might possibly get approved? Maybe I should just explain the problem and outline the pros and cons I see with each possible solution and hope someone finds something acceptable beyond "call it invalid"?
  833. # [21:42] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: explaining the problem first would be good, yeah
  834. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Well, I was planning on doing that anyway. :)
  835. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> I'll give that a shot when I have the time.
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  838. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  839. # [21:43] <MikeSmith> OK. proposing specific solutions is fine, too, but the risk is always that people then get hung up on arguing about the merits or faults of the proposed solution rather than thinking about the problem
  840. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Right.
  841. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Got to go now, I'll post a message to one of those lists soon.
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  847. # [21:59] <MikeSmith> <twitter!andymantell> @w3c Still don't get why there is no previous sibling combinator in CSS3, it'd be so so useful - any chance this could make it in one day?
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  849. # [22:03] <Dashiva> That would lead to possible cycles
  850. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: I can answer that. Gimme a sec; busy right now, then I'll give you a details response.
  851. # [22:05] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: thanks
  852. # [22:06] <MikeSmith> or feel free to reply directly to him on twitter if you want
  853. # [22:06] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: performance issue?
  854. # [22:11] <Dashiva> I'm not sure if it's only performance or if it could lead to loops in the layout as well
  855. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> No, just within selectors you can't get cycles.
  856. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> It's performance reasons, though previous-sibling and parent combinators are okay enough that implementors are all right with doing them.
  857. # [22:12] <Dashiva> Oh, my bad then
  858. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> We just haven't started writing Selectors 4 yet.
  859. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> They're pretty much certain to be in there.
  860. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Basically browsers have a somewhat unintuitive performance profile that makes all the reverse-versions of the current 4 combinators pretty inefficient, even though they can be done fairly easily in selectors engines like Sizzle.
  861. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> It's because nearly all selectors matching in browsers happens on an incomplete DOM as a page is being loaded, while js-based selectors engines operate on complete doms.
  862. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> And the existing combinators happen to work great with that, as they only need information that is guaranteed to already be in the DOM.
  863. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> If you are trying to match div > span, when a span appears you are guaranteed that, if it has a div parent, you'll have already seen it and know about it because of the way HTML's structure works.
  864. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> While "span < div" doesn't offer the same promise - when you see a div, you then have to wait until all its children have been loaded before you can be sure if it has a span child.
  865. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: So there you go. Try condensing that down to 140 characters. ^_^
  866. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> I want :has-child() *so bad*, but I understand why it hasn't appeared so far. It will appear in the future, though.
  867. # [22:22] * TabAtkins mainly wants it so he can do "label:has-child(:checked)".
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  871. # [22:26] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: thanks
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  874. # [22:31] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: you mentioned that implementors are OK with doing previous-sibling and parent combinators
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  879. # [22:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I need some help in getting the Microdata draft through pubrules
  880. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: so you are saying that implementors are planning to add support for previous-sibling?
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  911. # [23:46] <Hixie> MikeSmith: here
  912. # [23:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I am told we can't have URLs for images and other things in examples that don't resolve
  913. # [23:48] <MikeSmith> particularly to third-party sites
  914. # [23:48] <MikeSmith> e.g., the oreilly.com URLs in the examples
  915. # [23:49] <MikeSmith> so I think we should change those to example.com URLs
  916. # [23:51] <Philip`> example.com is a third-party site, and most URLs on it won't resolve
  917. # [23:51] <Philip`> so that seems an inconsistent policy
  918. # [23:51] <MikeSmith> yeah, but we know they are not meant to reolve
  919. # [23:53] <MikeSmith> I believe in part the logic of this is that we don't want somebody contacting O'Reilly to complain about a broken URL that we created
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  921. # [23:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the bogus dev.w3.org house.jpeg and mailbox.jpeg URLs as well
  922. # [23:54] <MikeSmith> Philip`: example.com is not actually a third-party site
  923. # [23:54] <MikeSmith> it is non-site
  924. # [23:55] <Philip`> It looks like a site to me
  925. # [23:55] <Philip`> Not a very exciting one, admittedly
  926. # [23:55] * Joins: Rik`_ (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  927. # [23:55] <Philip`> It's got a web server and everything
  928. # [23:56] <MikeSmith> well, it's a site that tells you to go read an RFC to find out why there's actually no content at the site
  929. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Yeah, that's the indication so far. Previous adjacent sibling and parent aren't *too* bad, and they're useful enough to justify the cost. General previous sibling (reverse of ~) and ancestor, though, are much worse and can't justify themselves as well.
  930. # [23:57] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: OK
  931. # [23:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith: looking...
  932. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> Philip`: and it's site that we can create arbitrary fully-qualified domain names for without somebody nagging me to fix them
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  934. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> s/create/invent|make up/
  935. # [23:58] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  936. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Hehe, I love people who don't know how mailing lists work, or how they got on them.
  937. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Specifically, I love the line "I'M SO FATUP WITH THIS!!!".
  938. # [23:59] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the oreilly URLs were provided by an O'Reilly employee, so I presume that they are valid RDF URLs (which don't resolve by design)
  939. # Session Close: Thu Mar 04 00:00:00 2010

The end :)