/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 09 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:05] <Hixie> knowtheory: that is one of the appropriate places you can send feedback, yes
  7. # [00:05] <Hixie> (it's one of the places i guarantee a reply eventually, too)
  8. # [00:05] <Hixie> (the other option is the bugzilla system in the html working group)
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  10. # [00:06] <Hixie> s/option/place/
  11. # [00:06] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yt?
  12. # [00:06] <Hixie> or sicking
  13. # [00:07] <Hixie> i'm looking at the empty attribute thread
  14. # [00:07] <sicking> which one?
  15. # [00:07] <Hixie> the one talking about not fetching things for <Script src="">, etc
  16. # [00:07] <sicking> ah
  17. # [00:07] <knowtheory> thanks Hixie
  18. # [00:07] <sicking> Hixie: what about it?
  19. # [00:07] <Hixie> if we make <script src=""> not fetch anything, should we also make it non-conforming?
  20. # [00:07] <Hixie> and does that mean <script src=""> and <script src=" "> would be different from each other?
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  22. # [00:08] <sicking> Hixie: i don't feel strongly on conforming vs. non-conforming
  23. # [00:08] <Hixie> (<script src=" "> is non-conforming currently)
  24. # [00:08] <sicking> Hixie: is whitespace generally trimmed from these attributes?
  25. # [00:08] <Hixie> (but it does result in a fetch, which would make it different)
  26. # [00:08] <Hixie> well when resolving the url it is
  27. # [00:08] <sicking> Hixie: i.e. what does " " do currently?
  28. # [00:08] <Hixie> not sure what you mean by "generally"
  29. # [00:09] <Hixie> " " resolves to the base URL
  30. # [00:09] <knowtheory> do CSS Animations actually have a formal relationship to the HTML5 spec? Or is it a detail of browser implementation, that CSS Animations would be included w/ HTML5?
  31. # [00:09] <sicking> Hixie: why does it resolve to the baseurl?
  32. # [00:09] <Hixie> knowtheory: CSS animations are part of CSS, nothing to do with HTML
  33. # [00:09] <sicking> Hixie: wouldn't it convert to "%20" which is appended to the base?
  34. # [00:09] <Hixie> sicking: spaces get trimmed first
  35. # [00:09] <knowtheory> Hixie: cool, just wanted to make sure i wasn't like way off base.
  36. # [00:10] <sicking> Hixie: ah, for relative urls? Or for all values of the attribute?
  37. # [00:10] <Hixie> i'm loathe to make "" invalid everywhere given that it's a valid URL, but making it invalid only in some places is a bit weird...
  38. # [00:10] <Hixie> all values
  39. # [00:10] * sicking ponders
  40. # [00:10] <Hixie> the "web addresses" stuff, assuming larry gets around to fixing it properly, trims spaces before resolving urls
  41. # [00:11] <Hixie> seems like making <a href="">foo</a> invalid is a bit weird
  42. # [00:11] <sicking> Hixie: ok, from an implementation point of view, i'd prefer to just tread "" special. I.e. "" != " ". The former does nothing, the latter fetches the base url
  43. # [00:11] <Hixie> but making <script src=""> valid but not do anything is also weird...
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  45. # [00:11] <Hixie> oh i agree that "" should be special, not in any way suggesting we make " " be handled differently
  46. # [00:12] <Hixie> it's the conformance aspects of this i'm struggling with
  47. # [00:12] <sicking> Hixie: on the validity issue i don't feel strongly. I agree both options are weird in different ways
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  49. # [00:13] <sicking> Hixie: one argument is that it might actually be convenient for authors to be able to use <script src="">
  50. # [00:13] <Hixie> if we make "" invalid for external-resource <link>s, <link rel="stylesheet index" href=""> would be simultaneously valid and invalid, which is confusing as all hell
  51. # [00:14] <Hixie> but if we make it valid, then <link rel=stylesheet href=""> would be valid but would not have the effect it should have given the url ""
  52. # [00:14] <sicking> Hixie: as to avoid having to do <%if ($bar) {%><script src="<%$bar%>"></script><%}%>
  53. # [00:15] <sicking> Hixie: yeah, i agree with your argument too
  54. # [00:16] <sicking> Hixie: politically it might be easier to make it invalid
  55. # [00:16] <Hixie> i'm not worried about the politics
  56. # [00:16] <othermaciej> really? document validity tends to be more political than implementation conformance
  57. # [00:16] <Hixie> it's the usability of the language i'm worried about
  58. # [00:17] <sicking> then i would say don't make it invalid
  59. # [00:17] <sicking> to avoid forcing authors to use the complex syntax above
  60. # [00:17] <Hixie> having <link rel="stylesheet index" href=""> create just one link but <link rel="stylesheet index" href="#"> create two is very confusing
  61. # [00:17] <Hixie> imhio
  62. # [00:17] <Hixie> imho, even
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  64. # [00:17] <sicking> though, i guess you could also argue that <script src=""> is likely a bug, and thus we'd help people by making it invalid so that the validator highlights the bug
  65. # [00:18] <Hixie> that was the argument for making it not fetch anything in the first palce
  66. # [00:18] <Hixie> place
  67. # [00:18] <Hixie> that it was always a bug
  68. # [00:18] <sicking> true
  69. # [00:18] <sicking> ok, make it invalid then :)
  70. # [00:18] <Hixie> is <a href="">foo</a> always a bug? maybe i should just make all empty URLs invalid
  71. # [00:19] <sicking> good question
  72. # [00:19] <Hixie> having some be invalid and some not is very poor form
  73. # [00:19] <sicking> well.. i don't think there are any good solutions here
  74. # [00:19] <sicking> so we'll have to pick one bad solution
  75. # [00:20] <Hixie> if we're picking bad solutions, it seems like making "" actually fetch the local page is the least bad solution from a usability perspective
  76. # [00:20] <sicking> why?
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  78. # [00:20] <Hixie> it makes the language self-consistent and predictable
  79. # [00:21] <Hixie> we could say that if you refer to the local page that the UA must use the cached copy always
  80. # [00:21] <sicking> that seems like picking language purity over author friendlyness
  81. # [00:21] <Hixie> "purity"?
  82. # [00:21] <Hixie> it's picking author friendliness over server load friendliness
  83. # [00:21] <sicking> authors are generally in charge of server load. so the distinction doesn't make sense IMHO
  84. # [00:21] <Hixie> if we say that if you refer to the local page that the UA must use the cached copy always, it doesn't even affect the load, which would be good
  85. # [00:22] <sicking> i.e. you'd be hurting the same guy as you're helping
  86. # [00:22] <Hixie> granted
  87. # [00:22] <sicking> and probably hurting him more than helping
  88. # [00:22] <Hixie> but if we use the cache we're not hurting at all
  89. # [00:22] <Hixie> while still being predictable
  90. # [00:22] <sicking> there isn't always a cache around
  91. # [00:22] <Hixie> well, in those cases we can hurt, i guess
  92. # [00:22] <Hixie> there usually is
  93. # [00:23] <sicking> that doesn't seem to be true for <img src="">
  94. # [00:23] <sicking> given that many browsers gave that special treatment
  95. # [00:23] <Hixie> what isn't true?
  96. # [00:23] <sicking> that there is a cached copy around
  97. # [00:23] <Hixie> i don't see why the browser behaviour indicates that one way or the other
  98. # [00:24] <Hixie> it's just easier to implement "do nothing" than "fetch from the cache and then do nothing because HTML isn't an image format"
  99. # [00:24] <sicking> browsers implemented an exception because there was a detectable difference
  100. # [00:24] <Hixie> by "browsers" you mean FF and Opera
  101. # [00:25] <Hixie> all the other browsers fetch the image, according to the data collected in this thread
  102. # [00:25] <sicking> ah, thought it was more
  103. # [00:25] <Hixie> in fact it's one of the few cases where IE does fetch the URL -- most of hte time it doesn't if it's ""
  104. # [00:26] <sicking> i still don't see how we're helping anyone by saying it should be fetched from cache
  105. # [00:26] <sicking> also, how is "should fetch from cache" different than not saying so? No browsers that i know of fetch from the network for the heck of it
  106. # [00:27] <Hixie> well if fetching from the cache doesn't reduce the load, it's not clear to me why there's a problem here
  107. # [00:27] <sicking> so staying silent on the issue would result in the same browser behavior as far as i can see
  108. # [00:27] <sicking> huh?
  109. # [00:27] <sicking> fetching from the cache would reduce the load
  110. # [00:27] <Hixie> right now, many browsers fetch something in these "" cases. I'm saying we should make it not fetch anything new but just use the available data instead. That seems like it would reduce the load, which is the stated problem.
  111. # [00:28] <sicking> but obviously at least firefox, opera and yahoo felt that the cache didn't reduce the load enough
  112. # [00:28] <daedb_> Why would any author want to use empty src/href? That does not look sane to me :)
  113. # [00:28] <Hixie> i dunno about "obviously"
  114. # [00:28] <sicking> firefox and opera obviously since they implemented it
  115. # [00:29] <sicking> yahoo in general i agree. This guy from yahoo obviously since he spent a lot of time figuring this out while developing the site
  116. # [00:29] <Hixie> i think you're drawing conclusions from the data that aren't warranted -- e.g. opera's behaviour could be a random bug.
  117. # [00:29] <Hixie> anyway, let's start from the beginning
  118. # [00:30] <Hixie> the problem is that authors say src="", data="", etc, but don't mean to
  119. # [00:30] <Hixie> yet they (presumably) say <a href=""> and _do_ mean to
  120. # [00:30] <Hixie> we ideally would want to catch the errors but not flag the intentional cases
  121. # [00:30] <Hixie> we ideally would want to not fetch data from the network for the error cases
  122. # [00:31] <Hixie> we have certain language features where a single href="" can be in both situations at the same time, namely <link rel="stylesheet index" href="">
  123. # [00:31] <sicking> practically speaking though, when would that markup ever make sense?
  124. # [00:32] <sicking> given that i can't think of a case when it would, I don't care very much what the spec says about it
  125. # [00:32] <sicking> (i only care enough that i don't want to write a bunch of code to handle it, as that is effectively dead code)
  126. # [00:32] <Hixie> <link rel="prefetch next" href=""> might, especially with scripting involved
  127. # [00:33] <sicking> neither "prefetch" or "next" is on the list of suggested changes though, is it?
  128. # [00:33] <Hixie> "prefetch" is
  129. # [00:33] <Hixie> it's an external resource link
  130. # [00:34] <sicking> true
  131. # [00:34] <Hixie> and who knows what future external resource links might be invented
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  133. # [00:34] <sicking> ok, so what is your point?
  134. # [00:35] <Hixie> no point, i was just describing the problem
  135. # [00:35] <Hixie> for daedb_'s benefit
  136. # [00:36] <sicking> it seems to me that everyone in that thread agreed on what UA behavior should be
  137. # [00:36] <sicking> so IMHO we should spec that behavior
  138. # [00:36] <Hixie> there's also the mildly interesting case of (XML) <img xml:base="...image..." src="" alt=.../>
  139. # [00:36] <ap> Hixie: <https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30303>, if you want more opinions on the topic
  140. # [00:36] <sicking> the question of conformance has not been treated though
  141. # [00:36] <sicking> i don't have a strong opinion on that
  142. # [00:37] <sicking> though I think that in general things that are extremely likely to be bugs should be non-conforming
  143. # [00:37] <Hixie> ap: reading...
  144. # [00:37] <sicking> as a rule of thumb
  145. # [00:38] <Hixie> i guess we could make <a href="" rel=next> valid but <link href="" rel=next> invalid
  146. # [00:39] <Hixie> and most authors wouldn't run into it
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  150. # [00:42] <sicking> Hixie: sounds ok to me
  151. # [00:44] <Hixie> should <script src=""></script> fire onload or onerror or neither?
  152. # [00:44] <Hixie> and if an event is fired, should it be fired synchronously or asynchronously when parsing?
  153. # [00:45] <sicking> Hixie: i'd say fire onerror. To keep the consistency that onload or onerror is always fired
  154. # [00:45] <sicking> Hixie: and fire asynch, to keep that consistency that all events are async
  155. # [00:45] <sicking> IMHO
  156. # [00:46] <Hixie> events with <script> aren't always async
  157. # [00:47] <Hixie> e.g. <script>document.write('<script onload="alert(1)">alert(0)<\/script>');alert(2);</script> per spec
  158. # [00:48] <Hixie> mind you either firefox nor safari fire that event at all as far as i can tell
  159. # [00:49] <Hixie> actually no browser seems to
  160. # [00:49] <Hixie> huh
  161. # [00:49] <othermaciej> spec bug?
  162. # [00:50] <Hixie> unclear
  163. # [00:50] <Hixie> i think firing onload in that case was an intentional addition
  164. # [00:50] <Hixie> not sure about the sync vs async
  165. # [00:55] <Hixie> ok i made it async in the internal case
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  168. # [01:01] <Hixie> should <embed type="application/plugin" src=""> instantiate the plugin based on the type="" attribute, or not at all?
  169. # [01:04] <Hixie> i'll follow <object> and make <embed src=""> do nothing
  170. # [01:04] <Hixie> er, <embed src="" type="..."> that is
  171. # [01:09] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242) (Quit: jgornick)
  172. # [01:10] <annevk> Hixie, how does the UI for peer-to-peer work?
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  174. # [01:22] <Hixie> annevk: you mean the UA UI?
  175. # [01:22] <Hixie> there is no UA UI defined for peer-to-peer... it would be the script that sets that up
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  178. # [01:24] <annevk> yeah
  179. # [01:24] <annevk> shouldn't I agree to connect my computer to some computer elsewhere?
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  181. # [01:25] <annevk> maybe the implications are not too bad
  182. # [01:30] <Hixie> annevk: it doesn't seem to be any different than XHR or WebSocket
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  191. # [01:59] <othermaciej> preventing exfiltration isn't really practical, so there's probably not much more reason to worry about peer-to-peer
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  199. # [02:24] <MikeSmithX> the more interesting number for rb would be to measure how many sites that use ruby have rb as part of their ruby
  200. # [02:25] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
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  215. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so it would seem we are probably going to need for somebody to write an actual spec for SRT
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  224. # [03:17] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah i figured as much. i can do that at some point, it's a pretty simple format. I wrote a draft already, actually, it's in some e-mail somewhere
  225. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> OK, that's good news at least
  226. # [03:19] * MikeSmith looks at Hixie's "valid non-empty URL" change
  227. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> ah hey, yeah, you already had valid non-empty URL as a datatype for other attribute values
  228. # [03:21] * MikeSmith goes to look at v.nu schema
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  230. # [03:23] <Hixie> really?
  231. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> oh, maybe not
  232. # [03:25] <MikeSmith> if not, this might require adding a new datatype to the v.nu HTML5 datatype library
  233. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, @manifest was previously allowed to be empty but must be non-empty now too
  234. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> etc.
  235. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> yeah, it seems this will require a new datatype
  236. # [03:29] * MikeSmith files a v.nu bug
  237. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> I wish there were some other contributors working on v.nu
  238. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> this would be an easy bug with which to get familiar with that part of the code
  239. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9198
  240. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> since hspace and vspace are already now allowed on embed, I assume that bug must be asking that they be explicitly listed in the obsolete-and-nonconforming section
  241. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> *not allowed
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  243. # [03:33] * MikeSmith wonders if he can manage to get his spellchecker to forget the words "now" and "not" so that they will always get highlighted and I can get alerted to double-check that I'm using the right one
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  296. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I notice there was never any response on the hybi list to John Fallows's "WebSocket API - proposal for binary frame support in JavaScript"
  297. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2010Jan/0009.html
  298. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> oh, sorry
  299. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> I see it was on the public-html-comments list
  300. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> (which makes sense because it's about the API..)
  301. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: should I maybe open a bugzilla bug for it?
  302. # [07:11] * MikeSmith really does need to get some food, will step out for a bit
  303. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> hmm, I see that you did actually respond.. I missed the reply because I was looking in the online archives
  304. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> and it got split across the month boundary
  305. # [07:13] <wirepair> mike, you have any more information on that proposal for binary frame support?
  306. # [07:13] <wirepair> that seems kinda iffy
  307. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> wirepair: I know no more than what John posted in the message above
  308. # [07:14] <wirepair> gotcha
  309. # [07:14] <wirepair> ps. don't catch norovirus
  310. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> hai
  311. # [07:14] <wirepair> i've been out for 3 days ;<
  312. # [07:14] <wirepair> things killing me
  313. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> I gargle podine iodine to ward off the bugs
  314. # [07:15] <wirepair> good deal. heh
  315. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> the brown stuff with the hippo character
  316. # [07:16] * MikeSmith grabs his umbrella and heads out
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  325. # [08:03] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: shouldn't it be on the webapi wg list?
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  343. # [09:30] <othermaciej> there have been 666 bugs filed in the HTML5 spec components since TPAC
  344. # [09:33] <annevk> nice number
  345. # [09:36] <annevk> with the peer-to-peer thingie it seems that everyone who gets your address can just connect with you
  346. # [09:37] <annevk> depending on what chat system is running on the site you might get tricked into giving information away to third parties you did not mean to
  347. # [09:37] <othermaciej> I just calculated our total incoming and outgoing bugs and issues since TPAC
  348. # [09:37] <othermaciej> neither number is really trending to 0
  349. # [09:38] <othermaciej> where is the peer-to-peer thingie spec'd?
  350. # [09:38] <annevk> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4828&to=4829 is all there is
  351. # [09:38] <annevk> so there is some speculation from me is to how it works since it's not all defined
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  353. # [09:42] <othermaciej> the hard part of peer-to-peer is discovering peers
  354. # [09:42] <othermaciej> most systems start with a well-known host that does the initial coordination
  355. # [09:43] <othermaciej> also not clear what protocol these proposed interfaces would use
  356. # [09:43] <othermaciej> also this probably won't work very well for users behind firewalls if it works in any kind of obvious way
  357. # [09:44] <othermaciej> to get to users on network segments using NAT or otherwise firewalled, you need to tunnel through a central server
  358. # [09:44] <othermaciej> like I gather Opera Unite does
  359. # [09:46] <annevk> the coordination goes through some kind of server in typical usage (non-typical would be to coordinate it over the phone)
  360. # [09:47] <othermaciej> telling someone your IP address over the phone is not an 80% use case
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  362. # [09:50] <annevk> yeah
  363. # [09:54] <othermaciej> not even sure if peer-to-peer in general is an 80% use case
  364. # [09:54] <othermaciej> I'd like to see WebSocket implemented and deployed first
  365. # [09:54] <othermaciej> which reminds me that I need to review the new handshake and also get abarth to do so
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  367. # [09:55] <annevk> IM is not 80%?
  368. # [09:58] <othermaciej> you don't need peer-to-peer for IM
  369. # [09:59] <othermaciej> Jabber goes through a server, so does IRC, to the best of my knowledge AIM/MSN/ICQ/etc also go through a central server
  370. # [10:00] <othermaciej> the only true peer-to-peer chat I get on my Mac, as far as I know, is Bonjour chat in iChat, which is only a neat trick because it autodiscovers people on the local network segment
  371. # [10:00] <othermaciej> but the interfaces you linked don't seem to have any provision for autodiscovery
  372. # [10:01] <othermaciej> autodiscovery is the hard part
  373. # [10:03] <othermaciej> (IRC does have the possibility of DCC which is directly peer-to-peer but it doesn't seem to be used that often)
  374. # [10:06] <othermaciej> I would guess audio or video chat probably does go peer-to-peer usually
  375. # [10:06] <othermaciej> but not always
  376. # [10:07] <othermaciej> there is group audio chat like Ventrillo which definitely uses a central server
  377. # [10:09] <annevk> mkay
  378. # [10:10] * Parts: Creap (~creap@83.218.67.122) ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")
  379. # [10:13] <annevk> autodiscovery would be nice
  380. # [10:16] <virtuelv> othermaciej: in terms of Opera unite it does one of two things
  381. # [10:16] <virtuelv> router configuration (uPnP) and/or a central proxy
  382. # [10:17] <othermaciej> oh, I think MobileMe also has name-based peer-to-peer WAN autodiscovery by name through a central server
  383. # [10:17] <virtuelv> there is also local network discovery
  384. # [10:17] <othermaciej> discovery is the hard part
  385. # [10:18] * roc spams webkit-dev
  386. # [10:18] <othermaciej> and letting a web page advertise your host for autodiscovery without permission is the potentially scary security bit
  387. # [10:21] <annevk> ohuh
  388. # [10:21] <Hixie> othermaciej: iChat is peer-to-peer also once you've established the link, as i understand it. Certainly Skype is.
  389. # [10:21] <Hixie> annevk: there's no reason the address couldn't be unique per PeerToPeerServer -- indeed, that seems like a good idea
  390. # [10:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: iChat is an app not a protocol - which protocol do you mean?
  391. # [10:22] <Hixie> othermaciej: the one used for video chat, sorry
  392. # [10:22] <othermaciej> I believe its use of AIM and Jabber is not peer-to-peer, but I believe audio and video chat and Bonjour chat are peer-to-peer
  393. # [10:22] <Hixie> sounds right
  394. # [10:22] <othermaciej> (audio and video peer discovery being done via the central server initially)
  395. # [10:22] <virtuelv> skype uses STUN, afaict
  396. # [10:22] <virtuelv> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3489.txt
  397. # [10:22] <Hixie> video conferencing is the main use case i'm imagining this stuff being used for
  398. # [10:22] <Hixie> anyway this is all highly experimental so far
  399. # [10:23] <virtuelv> plus http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-turn-16
  400. # [10:23] <Hixie> i'm just poking around with proposals because it comes up every now and then
  401. # [10:23] <virtuelv> http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2006/08/16/cringely-skype-open-infrastructure/
  402. # [10:24] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, I was thinking it had to be tied to the origin or something
  403. # [10:24] <annevk> but unique would be even better
  404. # [10:25] <Hixie> annevk: i hope that we don't have to define the network-level stuff but can instead just defer to a separate spec, the way the websocket api defers to a websocket protocol spec, except without me having to write the network side :-)
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  407. # [10:26] <annevk> I wonder what the quality of such a spec would be
  408. # [10:26] * Philip` thought the point of Skype was that it tried loads of connection methods, which is necessary in order to make something that works for all users
  409. # [10:27] <Philip`> e.g. if one user can accept external network connections, they get used as a proxy between users that can't
  410. # [10:27] <othermaciej> like I said - discovery is the hard part
  411. # [10:28] <Philip`> (so it'll silently use up your bandwidth)
  412. # [10:28] <Philip`> and it does various tricks like trying to use port 80 to get around firewalls
  413. # [10:28] <Philip`> (as well as all of the NAT traversal)
  414. # [10:30] <Philip`> This isn't the discovery part, it's the part where you figure out how to send traffic to someone after you've discovered them
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  416. # [10:38] <othermaciej> when I say "discovery" I mean including the ability to actually establish a connection to the peer
  417. # [10:38] <othermaciej> I guess that's really discovery + routing
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  420. # [10:42] <Philip`> Ah
  421. # [10:54] <Hixie> othermaciej: the change proposal link in ISSUE-66 in the issue-status list links to something other than it claims
  422. # [10:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: probably my falt, let me see
  423. # [10:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: ugh - it looks like the forwarding links from the old wiki are not working
  424. # [10:54] <othermaciej> MikeSmithX: are you around?
  425. # [10:55] <othermaciej> Hixie: probably all other links to the esw wiki are broken
  426. # [10:55] <MikeSmithX> othermaciej: I am now
  427. # [10:55] <othermaciej> MikeSmithX: esw wiki doesn't seem to be forwarding to the new wiki
  428. # [10:55] <othermaciej> or rather, all old links to it forward to the main page
  429. # [10:56] <othermaciej> is that expected?
  430. # [10:58] <MikeSmithX> it's expected but we are working on fixing
  431. # [10:58] <MikeSmithX> iy
  432. # [10:58] <MikeSmithX> it
  433. # [10:58] <othermaciej> ok
  434. # [10:58] <othermaciej> I should probably fix all the links to the old wiki on the issue status page
  435. # [11:00] <othermaciej> would it work to just global replace http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ with http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/
  436. # [11:00] <MikeSmithX> yeah, it should
  437. # [11:00] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  438. # [11:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: fix't
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  440. # [11:04] <Hixie> thanks
  441. # [11:05] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: by the way, your "age of oldest unresolved bug" number doesn't look so hot (from my recent email) - I hope you get a chance to do a pass over H:TML bugs soon
  442. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, there are a couple of old ones I know I can close out
  443. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> because I filed them myself
  444. # [11:06] <othermaciej> heh
  445. # [11:07] <othermaciej> I will forgive you if you skip the standard boilerplate on self-filed bugs (assuming no one else is going to be looking to escalate them or anything)
  446. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> ok
  447. # [11:10] <othermaciej> this article sounds amazingly authoritative given that the author clearly has no idea what he's talking about: http://www.betanews.com/article/Latest-HTML5-working-draft-published-despite-claims-of-sabotage/1268084800
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  450. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> aha, authoritative indeed
  451. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> 'By "accessibility," Le Hégaret was using a keyword in the argument in favor of breaking Canvas out from HTML5'
  452. # [11:17] <othermaciej> I am just amazed how may simple declarative statements there are false
  453. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> sharp character, this Scott M. Fulton, III is
  454. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> he understands all the secret code words
  455. # [11:18] <Hixie> i couldn't read it all the way through, it was too painful
  456. # [11:25] <nessy> what a twisted world view
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  458. # [11:25] <nessy> some people can make plots out of anything!
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  460. # [11:34] <annevk> oh hey, my blog is linked
  461. # [11:34] <annevk> good times
  462. # [11:35] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/10187314697
  463. # [11:36] <hsivonen> I guess the "range of expectation" is narrow
  464. # [11:37] <Hixie> i'm sure glad people are tweeting rather than filing bugs
  465. # [11:37] <annevk> the more important question is of course, do you care about SWF?
  466. # [11:37] <Hixie> makes my life a lot easier
  467. # [11:38] <hsivonen> annevk: at least on the desktop market, it would be considered a bug if CSS and SWF colors didn't look the same for a given RGB value
  468. # [11:39] <hsivonen> on a related note, neither swfdec nor gnash manages to show me any .swf files on Ubuntu (64-bit)
  469. # [11:40] <hsivonen> the context menus suggests the plug-ins do load
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  475. # [11:51] <othermaciej> one of the top two reasons we can't colormatch images in HTML in Safari is because SWF doesn't colormatch vector drawing
  476. # [11:53] <othermaciej> I almost @replied to jdowdell but I regained my senses
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  479. # [11:53] <othermaciej> because one of the top two reasons we can't colormatch everything in Safari is SWFs!
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  485. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks for the comment on the iri-ref v.nu bug I raise
  486. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> *raised
  487. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the solution of changing the iri-ref datatype to never accept the empty string and changing the allowed value for attributes that do accept either the empty string or iri-ref does sound like the best way to handle it
  488. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> shall I go ahead and make that change?
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  493. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> othermaciej, annevk - I created a new bugzilla HTML WG component for the HTML5 differences from HTML4 doc
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  499. # [12:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: go ahead
  500. # [12:38] <hsivonen> I'm getting really close to point where the HTML5 parser in Gecko can be turned on by default
  501. # [12:38] <hsivonen> I hope to have some cycles for V.nu hacking when that's done
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  505. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool
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  562. # [15:32] <Philip`> "Exactly what is the purpose for this change proposal? Are you saying that you want to change the section in the specification?" - I thought it was fairly clear that the purpose of a change proposal is to propose a change to the specification
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  565. # [15:35] <Philip`> (Maybe the confusion is that Shelley thinks it necessarily reflects the personal opinion of the person who is writing the proposal, rather than just being intended as an option for the WG to consider and potentially vote on)
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  568. # [15:38] <hsivonen> Did Safari 4 change WebKit's doctype sniffing inspired by HTML5 as Leif claims?
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  573. # [15:49] <annevk> i somewhat doubt it
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  577. # [15:52] <annevk> doesn't look like it looking at trac
  578. # [15:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: hyatt rewrote it around the Saf4 time, IIRC
  579. # [15:52] <gsnedders> (hyatt definitely rewrote it to match HTML 5 sometime)
  580. # [15:52] <annevk> really?
  581. # [15:53] <annevk> the doctype string file hasn't been touched for four years
  582. # [15:53] <annevk> and to match HTML5 that would need changing
  583. # [15:53] <annevk> furthermore the HTML parser code doesn't seem to be changed around doctypes either
  584. # [15:54] <annevk> meanwhile I noticed Safari implements <hgroup> among other new elements
  585. # [15:54] <annevk> well, WebKit
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  591. # [15:56] <annevk> gsnedders, I can't find evidence for your claim
  592. # [15:56] <annevk> would be nice though if he did
  593. # [15:56] <gsnedders> annevk: He certainly changed it a fair bit to get it pretty close to HTML 5
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  595. # [15:57] <annevk> gsnedders, not per SVN
  596. # [15:57] <gsnedders> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17639 is one bug
  597. # [15:58] <annevk> hmm, that bug is marked WFM
  598. # [15:58] <annevk> and the file it talks about hasn't been touched for four years
  599. # [15:58] <gsnedders> Indeed
  600. # [15:59] <gsnedders> Was the list in HTML 5 not originally based upon WebKit?
  601. # [15:59] <annevk> yes
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  603. # [16:15] <Philip`> Shelley's view of change proposals seems to make compromise impossible, if everybody only proposes what they personally think is best (given that the result must be the acceptance of exactly one change proposal)
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  605. # [16:17] * annevk wonders if everyone has the experience outlined here: http://camendesign.com/blog/choice
  606. # [16:18] <annevk> balot screen kind of fails if that's true
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  608. # [16:19] <gsnedders> annevk: Apparently happens when you upgrade to IE8 and ballot screen at the same time
  609. # [16:21] <meledin> Those pictures are pure win
  610. # [16:22] <Philip`> At least the IE8 upgrade won't happen on Win7 (since it ships with that version)
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  612. # [16:23] <meledin> Even if it
  613. # [16:23] <meledin> is accidental, I'd have to give props to Microsoft for ingeniously circumventing the ballot
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  616. # [16:26] <Philip`> Forcing users to respond to an unsolicited prompt that expects them to make an important decision is always going to be bad UI design
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  618. # [16:26] <Philip`> and I don't see an obvious way that Microsoft could have made it much better
  619. # [16:29] <Philip`> (It seems they only do these prompts for IE8 (which is important for security and compatibility, and is a major user-visible change so it shouldn't be done silently, so it's worth annoying the user for it) and browser choice (which is legally required), and otherwise successfully avoid it)
  620. # [16:30] <hsivonen> considering that the ballot is legally required, I'm surprised they haven't done more code review and QA on it
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  622. # [16:50] <gsnedders> Anyone know of any Python WebIDL parser?
  623. # [16:53] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-4-120-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  624. # [16:54] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://suika.fam.cx/www/markup/html/whatpm/readme has a Perl one, which is close
  625. # [16:54] * gsnedders slaps Philip`
  626. # [16:55] <Philip`> :-(
  627. # [16:55] * Philip` often chooses what language to use based on available libraries rather than on properties of the language itself
  628. # [16:55] <gsnedders> So, should I go for one and use GHC, and use that as a Python extension? :P
  629. # [16:55] <gsnedders> *use GHC for it
  630. # [16:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: That decision has already been made
  631. # [16:56] <Philip`> Do you mean write your own?
  632. # [16:56] <Philip`> Also, do you mean GHC as in Haskell?
  633. # [16:56] <gsnedders> Yes
  634. # [16:57] <gsnedders> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/webidl
  635. # [16:58] <Philip`> That sounds more complex than using one written in a sensible language like Perl, and making it emit the parse tree as JSON so you can load it into Python
  636. # [16:58] <gsnedders> Maybe I should just rewrite Anolis in Haskell :P
  637. # [16:58] <Philip`> Alternatively, maybe you shouldn't :-p
  638. # [17:00] <Philip`> In any case, it's probably best to treat the IDL parser as a standalone tool that emits an easy-to-parse text stream, instead of tightly coupling your Python code to it
  639. # [17:04] <boblet> There’s a new doctor in the house — me ;-)
  640. # [17:04] <boblet> http://html5doctor.com/i-b-em-strong-element/
  641. # [17:04] * boblet really hopes no one spots an obvious mistake in like 5 seconds (gulp)
  642. # [17:05] <paul_irish_> very nice post.
  643. # [17:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: That means trying to write Perl ;P
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  645. # [17:06] <boblet> paul_irish_: thanks! your powers of speed reading are … impressive!
  646. # [17:06] <Philip`> "i-b-em" - that sounds familiar
  647. # [17:06] <paul_irish_> haha
  648. # [17:06] <boblet> hehe
  649. # [17:07] <gsnedders> boblet: Would the examples for the b element not normally be ::first-line?
  650. # [17:07] <boblet> it just worked out that way, honest guv’nor!
  651. # [17:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: Probably only a little bit of Perl
  652. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> boblet: great stuff
  653. # [17:09] <boblet> gsnedders: one would, and the other wouldn’t — the :first-line example is the ”use :first-line not b to do this” one
  654. # [17:09] <boblet> thanks for your help MikeSmith
  655. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> boblet: I especially like that way you curl your capital letter Is
  656. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> or at least that one I
  657. # [17:10] <boblet> I am but your humble padawan ;-)
  658. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> do more of that
  659. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> oh my god
  660. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> that O outdoes the I
  661. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> that is audacious O
  662. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> that is like a "Story of O" O
  663. # [17:10] <boblet> versals in the house ;-) @font-face of course
  664. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> boblet: in future articles, you :first-letter examples should just successively use bigger and bigger letters, until the get up to 320px or so
  665. # [17:12] <gsnedders> boblet: But do you really often do such things with less than the opening line? My memory could alwasy be wrong… :P
  666. # [17:13] <boblet> MikeSmith: click through to the example page — it makes more sense there (the “O” is the first drop cap, the “I” is the size of subsequent drop caps ;-) )
  667. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> blb
  668. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> boblet: sorry, I got distracted
  669. # [17:13] <boblet> gsnedders: in traditional typography the first word or phrase is common
  670. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> reading "Story of O"
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  672. # [17:14] <boblet> traditional = scribes in brown habits, early years of the printing press etc
  673. # [17:15] <gsnedders> Yet of course it remained primarily stylisitc with print
  674. # [17:16] <gsnedders> And what I was taught was one very specific style of one printer
  675. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> boblet: anyway, seriously, very nice article
  676. # [17:16] <gsnedders> Anyone know off-hand what Ada's full name in "Ada or Ardor" is?
  677. # [17:17] <boblet> MikeSmith: I raise my mug of green tea to your good health :)
  678. # [17:17] <gsnedders> (for some obscure memonic reason)
  679. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> boblet: you have set a higher bar for the other HTML doctors
  680. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> you have made them look like HTML interns
  681. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> or HTML candy-stripe nurses
  682. # [17:18] * gsnedders cheats and takes advantage of the fact that the text is available online
  683. # [17:18] <gsnedders> "A girl was born on July 21, 1872, at Ardis, her putative father's seat in Ladore County, and for some obscure mnemonic reason was registered as Adelaida.
  684. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> http://html5candystripenurses.com/
  685. # [17:18] <boblet> gsnedders: I’ll have to ask John from ILT about it
  686. # [17:19] <gsnedders> ILT?
  687. # [17:19] <boblet> http://ilovetypography.com/
  688. # [17:20] <boblet> MikeSmith: you’re too kind. But yeah I worry I may have got a little carried away. Hopefully they’ll forgive an enthusiastic locum
  689. # [17:20] <Philip`> http://ihatetypography.com/ - someone needs to register that
  690. # [17:20] * boblet is very disappointed that nurses site isn’t registered
  691. # [17:21] * gsnedders hates the opening chapters of Ada
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  693. # [17:28] <lazni> in windows 7, ie8 still pops up that modal dialog at first load
  694. # [17:30] <Philip`> The upgrade-from-IE7 one?
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  696. # [17:32] <lazni> yes, "Welcome to IE8"
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  720. # [18:18] <AryehGregor> Hixie, could you say that if a URL resolves to the current resource, and the user agent knows that a text/html response will cause an error, it can decline to fetch the resource even if it's not actually in cache, on the assumption that it will be text/html? (Similar for XML MIME types.)
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  722. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> As for validation, surely something somewhere already says that script/stylesheet/etc. links must point to documents of the correct type. E.g., if <script src=""></script> points to a text/html file, then that violates the sentence "If the language is not that described by "text/javascript", then the type attribute must be present, as described below."
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  724. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> So a validator could recognize that "" is not a text/javascript resource and raise an error.
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  726. # [18:23] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Some people (like hsivonen, I think) don't like the validity of a document depending on external resources
  727. # [18:24] <Philip`> It makes it really hard to check that a document is valid and that it stays valid
  728. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> You can't check all validity requirements anyway.
  729. # [18:24] <Philip`> (and you'd get different results when copying-and-pasting into a text input box vs pointing at the URL)
  730. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> Hmm, true.
  731. # [18:24] <Philip`> That's not a reason to add more requirements that can't be checked
  732. # [18:25] <Philip`> particularly since it's a lot of complexity for something that nobody is going to do on purpose
  733. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> The requirement already exists, I'm not suggesting it be added. :)
  734. # [18:25] <Philip`> s/particularly since/Also,/
  735. # [18:25] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  736. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Validators that don't want to depend on whether you copy-paste or point at the URL can implement only special cases of this check -- like saying it's an error only if the URL resolves to the current document, but HTML is the wrong type for the link.
  737. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Which is the current case.
  738. # [18:27] <Philip`> Actually, <script src=""> doesn't point to a text/html file
  739. # [18:28] <Philip`> because (per the spec) it doesn't resolve to anything
  740. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> It doesn't?
  741. # [18:28] <Philip`> It hasn't done for at least 16 hours
  742. # [18:29] <Philip`> So I think that's not a problematic case, because it points at nothing and is clearly an error
  743. # [18:31] <Philip`> The problematic case was like <link rel="stylesheet index" href="">
  744. # [18:31] <Philip`> where the stylesheet link doesn't point to anything, while the index link points to the base URL
  745. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> Well, I was making suggestions to Hixie based on the previous version of the spec.
  746. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> As an alternative fix.
  747. # [18:33] <Philip`> The previous version of the spec would download the current page again if you wrote <script src="">
  748. # [18:33] <Philip`> which was the problem
  749. # [18:33] <Philip`> so the fix would have to involve changing it to not download the current page again
  750. # [18:33] <Philip`> and so it couldn't then define validity in terms of the downloaded resource
  751. # [18:34] <Philip`> although I think I forgot to read what you actually said
  752. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Right. My suggestion was that the spec say that if a URL is known to resolve to the current resource, then if that URL is used for something that's not supposed to be HTML, the UA can raise an error without bothering to actually retrieve the resource.
  753. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Or just ignore it, or something.
  754. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> And validators can say it's an error if they know it resolves to the current resource.
  755. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> I guess that's messier than just adding some special cases, but it seems less hackish.
  756. # [18:37] <Philip`> That seems like a lot of complexity for something that nobody is going to do on purpose
  757. # [18:39] <Philip`> It doesn't seem non-hackish to me, because it's still going to do weird things in hypothetical cases like a POST response page saying <script src=""> where the GET returns a different content-type
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  760. # [18:40] <Philip`> and it'll be hard for authors to predict behaviour because it'll depend on whether the UA cached enough information about the page
  761. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> I guess.
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  782. # [20:08] <Dashiva> It's so easy to forget that we are currently living in an era of low public-html traffic
  783. # [20:12] <knowtheory> what?
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  786. # [20:21] <Philip`> Dashiva: We are?
  787. # [20:21] <Philip`> Monthly post counts: http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:1773,1307,1099,1313,1258,576,398,491,324,307,441,370,802,767,462,455,965,515,301,592,263,694,818,734,288,657,857,954,1477,1220,1144,681,518,1459,908&chds=0,2000&chs=300x150
  788. # [20:23] <othermaciej> Philip`: what is that counting?
  789. # [20:23] <Dashiva> The graph is deceitful, it doesn't compensate for christmas
  790. # [20:24] <Philip`> othermaciej: Monthly posts :-)
  791. # [20:24] <Philip`> The numbers from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/ in particular
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  793. # [20:24] <othermaciej> monthly posts to what?
  794. # [20:24] <Philip`> (excluding the periods that aren't months)
  795. # [20:24] <othermaciej> public-html?
  796. # [20:24] <Philip`> public-html
  797. # [20:27] <knowtheory> Dashiva: how is it decietful?
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  802. # [20:46] <othermaciej> since we're throwing stats around - I made some monthly bug stats: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AoCAfo_LQ5_kdFFWWmpCMWxsLUN2TW9VYi1uNEJGenc&hl=en
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  805. # [20:49] <othermaciej> it's interesting that find rate and fix rate seem to roughly track each other, yet the resulting net incoming rate seems to oscillate quite a bit
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  837. # [23:08] <Hixie> AryehGregor: that would fail to handle this http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/html/external-resources/001.test
  838. # [23:08] <Hixie> AryehGregor: (note no content-type headers)
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  840. # [23:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: (also note that that test is now out of date)
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  856. # Session Close: Wed Mar 10 00:00:00 2010

The end :)