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- # Session Start: Thu Mar 11 00:00:00 2010
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [01:22] <othermaciej> jgraham: you should comment on the list
- # [01:23] <othermaciej> jgraham: I think no one but Kris and PLH is attending the conference calls, but Kris may also feel no one else is really giving input
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- # [08:17] <Mrmil> Hi, just a quick question: is there a way to simulate tree structure in html5?
- # [08:26] <MikeSmithX> Mrmil: datagrid?
- # [08:30] <Mrmil> MikeSmithX: Wasn't that dropped?
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- # [08:43] <Hixie> Mrmil: you can style nested <ul>s... search for "would be turned into the following DOM tree" in the HTML5 spec for an example (in the intro)
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- # [09:35] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: are you about?
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- # [09:52] <zcorpan> hmm, i was pondering about a potential security issue with the legacy encoding decl
- # [09:53] <zcorpan> consider a service that filters input but allows some text in a <meta name=description value=...> (or keywords)
- # [09:54] <zcorpan> attacker inserts text/html; charset=something
- # [09:54] <zcorpan> if that's after 512 bytes or 1024 bytes, it can cause scripts to execute twice
- # [09:55] <zcorpan> it can also cause the page to be interpreted in the wrong encoding, causing further problems
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- # [09:56] <zcorpan> i wonder if we can kill re-navigation, and require http-equiv=content-type for the encoding decl
- # [09:58] <annevk> seems somewhat unlikely
- # [09:59] <annevk> the vulnerability is of the same level of complexity we expect people using srcdoc="" to handle just fine
- # [10:00] <JonathanNeal> You guys hear about the html5 shiv problem with js?
- # [10:01] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't follow
- # [10:01] <annevk> zcorpan, I don't see why value would not be a quoted attribute and why the service would not quote-escape the input
- # [10:03] <zcorpan> annevk: the problem isn't with quoting
- # [10:04] <zcorpan> annevk: <zcorpan> attacker inserts text/html; charset=something
- # [10:05] <zcorpan> annevk: per spec, any meta is respected as an encoding decl, so it's easy to convert an innocent meta into an encoding decl without breaking out of the attribute value
- # [10:05] <zcorpan> hmm the attribute needs to be content='', but still
- # [10:06] <annevk> oh wait, you mean the content attribute
- # [10:06] <zcorpan> yes
- # [10:06] <annevk> I think some UAs do require it
- # [10:07] <annevk> it seems like a very minor issue though
- # [10:07] <zcorpan> the spec requires just look at content=''
- # [10:08] <annevk> also, the dangerous encodings have been banned
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- # [10:09] <zcorpan> doesn't mean it's not problematic to change the encoding of a page
- # [10:09] <zcorpan> you change the meaning of urls and form submission
- # [10:10] <annevk> it seems far-fetched to me
- # [10:10] <zcorpan> sure
- # [10:10] <zcorpan> so is the problem with reparsing
- # [10:11] <annevk> also, sites can prevent this from happening easily
- # [10:11] <zcorpan> sure
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- # [10:13] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: what problem?
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- # [10:19] <zcorpan> Philip`: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index is broken :(
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- # [10:23] <gsnedders> How do you get the textContent of a node in XSL?
- # [10:23] <JonathanNeal> zcorpan, well..
- # [10:24] <JonathanNeal> var div = document.createElement('div');
- # [10:24] <JonathanNeal> div.innerHTML = '<section> From innerHTML </section>';
- # [10:24] <JonathanNeal> alert(div.innerHTML);
- # [10:24] <JonathanNeal> // in IE
- # [10:24] <JonathanNeal> ooooh poo, why doesn't ychat tell me when it's going to do that.
- # [10:30] <JonathanNeal> Anyway, it's a problem, but I found a solution.
- # [10:30] <JonathanNeal> I'm tired, I'll finish the blog later and share it with you guys. It's kinda important went trying to work with the dom in JS in IE with HTML5.
- # [10:30] <JonathanNeal> *when
- # [10:31] <zcorpan> i don't have ie; what does it do?
- # [10:32] <JonathanNeal> it returns "From innerHTML </section>"
- # [10:32] <JonathanNeal> It kills all html set via innerHTML.
- # [10:32] <JonathanNeal> all html5.
- # [10:32] <zcorpan> weird
- # [10:32] <JonathanNeal> It is very weird.
- # [10:32] <JonathanNeal> But fixable.
- # [10:33] <JonathanNeal> It has to do with the shiv and how dynamic events aren't attached to a shiv'd body.
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- # [10:33] <JonathanNeal> so i just create all my nodes on a sister fragment when i need to manip, then detach.
- # [10:34] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: <xsl:value-of select="."/>
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- # [10:34] <MikeSmith> when the node you want is the current context node
- # [10:34] <JonathanNeal> Adds about 0.1ms to the fn.
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- # [10:58] <hsivonen> Bug 9225 doesn't suprise me, but it's sad that the platform has had that bug for so long.
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- # [11:08] <Philip`> zcorpan: Moved it to a new server and haven't bothered fixing the database stuff (it was using PostgreSQL but I don't fancy running that on the new server just for this)
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- # [11:09] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok
- # [11:11] <zcorpan> Philip`: have you researched <meta>s that get interpreted as legacy encoding decl but don't have http-equiv=content-type?
- # [11:12] * zcorpan finds http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0029.html
- # [11:12] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html#http-equiv-values
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- # [11:13] <zcorpan> hmm no name='' values
- # [11:14] * Philip` probably didn't collect that data
- # [11:14] <Philip`> It might be in the "none" ones
- # [11:15] <zcorpan> yeah
- # [11:15] <zcorpan> would be interesting to know what they are if we're changing the spec
- # [11:15] <zcorpan> maybe some pages use httpequiv=content-type or other
- # [11:27] <zcorpan> hmm writing a grep correct for this seems seems non-trivial; maybe it's better to run an html parser and inspect attributes
- # [11:30] <zcorpan> how convenient that the algorithm is removed from both html5 and mimesniff just when i want to look at it
- # [11:31] <Dashiva> Check an old revision of html5?
- # [11:31] <Philip`> I've got an easily-processable list of meta http-equiv/name/content values
- # [11:31] <Philip`> but it doesn't include any other attributes
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- # [11:33] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%3Cmeta%5Cs%5B%5E%3E%5D%2Ahttpequiv+lang%3Ahtml&sbtn=Search
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- # [11:39] * zcorpan would like a field in code search "exclude ones that match this regexp:"
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- # [12:45] <Lachy> interesting, yet convoluted way to watch h.264 encoded videos embedded with <video> in Firefox http://lifehacker.com/5488607/can-i-play-html5-youtube-videos-in-firefox-right-now
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- # [12:46] <Lachy> basically, use the IETab extension to force YouTube to always load IE instead of Gecko, and install Google Chrome Frame
- # [12:47] <Lachy> so Firefox which loads IE, which in turn loads Chrome, just to watch h.264 in a browser that looks like Firefox, but really isn't.
- # [12:47] <zcorpan> seems easier to install a firefox skin to chrome
- # [12:47] <Lachy> yep :-)
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- # [12:48] <annevk> :/
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- # [12:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why did you retract the isindex request?
- # [13:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Implementing it is already sunk cost now, so I no longer care.
- # [13:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: also, I discussed it with sicking, who pointed out that the HTML5 way will allow us to clean up some CSS formatter stuff down the road
- # [13:01] <hsivonen> and it we do that, we end up with less crazy code as a whole
- # [13:01] <zcorpan> ok
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- # [13:03] <hsivonen> how can get the whatwg list route messages where I'm in To or Cc also though the list?
- # [13:03] * hsivonen wants the right List-Id header on all whatwg discussions
- # [13:06] <zcorpan> i wonder if ie checks type=text for submission of <isindex type=checkbox>
- # [13:10] <Lachy> hsivonen, if I'm correctly understanding what you're asking for, Mailman has subscriber preferences that you can set for yourself so that you always receive a copy of the e-mail via the list, even if you're addressed in To or CC fields.
- # [13:10] <annevk> hsivonen, by allowing for duplicates
- # [13:11] <annevk> hsivonen, if you have set the software to prevent duplicates it will not give you the list copy if you already got a copy in a different manner (it cannot prevent giving you that copy)
- # [13:12] * hsivonen fails to see an entry point to mailman settings
- # [13:13] <Lachy> http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org
- # [13:13] <Lachy> see the "Unsubscribe or edit options" button at the bottom
- # [13:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks. that "edit options" part sure is well hidden
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- # [13:16] <hsivonen> huh. I already have avoid duplicates set to No.
- # [13:16] * hsivonen tries re-setting
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- # [13:20] <Lachy> is it possible that the duplicate is being detected and deleted by something on your mail server?
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- # [13:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: unlikely, since it doesn't happen for w3.org lists
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- # [13:36] <hsivonen> hmm. I've put commas is nonsensical places in a lot of email lately :-(
- # [13:36] <hsivonen> I wonder why
- # [13:37] <hsivonen> the correctness of my written English has deteriorated since high school even though I write more :-(
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- # [13:39] <Dashiva> hsivonen: You're being exposed to native speakers and their sloppy ways
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- # [14:05] <asmodai> Dashiva: Heh, I always cringe whenever I see 'would of'.
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- # [14:06] <Dashiva> Indeed
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- # [14:08] <Lachy> what is it about 'would of' that makes you cringe?
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- # [14:09] <Lachy> the fact that it's grammatically incorrect version of would've or would have?
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- # [14:09] <Dashiva> The fact that it's so obviously wrong
- # [14:10] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop MIke
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- # [14:11] <Dashiva> #whatwg
- # [14:11] <Lachy> it's just one of those phrases that people hear spoken, mis-interpret and treat as an idiomatic phrase. Happens quite a bit with a few phrases.
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- # [14:15] <asmodai> Lachy: I never can understand how people manage to get that done. If I say would have/would've it doesn't sound like would of. Maybe it's because I learnt Queen's English in school.
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- # [14:16] <Dashiva> Lachy: That assumes learning English entirely through audio and never even covering basic verb conjugation
- # [14:17] <gsnedders> A large part of my English didn't come from audio
- # [14:17] <gsnedders> But nor it come from learning formal grammar rules
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- # [14:18] <Dashiva> Eliminate vocabulary and the ratios change I expect
- # [14:19] <gsnedders> I'd say the majority of the grammar I learnt aurally was mainly the more simple rules
- # [14:20] <gsnedders> And the increasingly complex came more from writing
- # [14:21] <TabAtkins> asmodai: In standard American, "would've" and "would of" do sound identical.
- # [14:21] <jgraham> hmm? "would've" and "would of" sound quite similar in home counties british english (which I assume you mean by "Queeen's English" since I can't imagine you learnt to speak in an incredibly posh accent)
- # [14:21] <Lachy> asmodai, that depends on the speaker's accent and how much they stress the 'o' in 'of'
- # [14:21] <jgraham> s/eee/ee
- # [14:23] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: both "wooduv" but some people say "woulda" instead
- # [14:23] <MikeSmith> hey
- # [14:23] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html
- # [14:24] <MikeSmith> question:
- # [14:24] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Yeah, but I'd pronounce both as "wooda" too. ^_^
- # [14:24] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html#examples
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- # [14:25] <MikeSmith> "A device lying flat on a horizontal surface with the top of the screen pointing West has the following orientation... theta: 90"
- # [14:25] <MikeSmith> why is that theta: -90 ?
- # [14:26] <MikeSmith> why is that not theta: -90 ?
- # [14:26] <MikeSmith> that is, why positive 90 and not negative 90?
- # [14:27] <MikeSmith> "C is perpendicular to the screen, positive out of the screen... rotate the device frame around its C axis by theta degrees, with theta in [0, 360)"
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- # [14:28] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Because it's been rotated 90 degrees in the positive direction (CCW).
- # [14:28] <annevk> it follows from that it cannot be negative
- # [14:28] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: CCW is positive?
- # [14:28] <TabAtkins> Yes.
- # [14:28] <TabAtkins> Always has been.
- # [14:28] <MikeSmith> oh.
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- # [14:28] <MikeSmith> dint know that
- # [14:29] <TabAtkins> Standard rules of angles is that CCW is positive, and the 0 angle is to the east.
- # [14:29] <TabAtkins> (When directionality is important, as well as simple magnitude of change.)
- # [14:29] <MikeSmith> damn I'm ig'nant
- # [14:30] <annevk> btw, why do we need CSSRule.type or Node.type?
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- # [14:30] <annevk> is that something inflicted upon us by Java?
- # [14:30] <annevk> Node.nodeType even
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- # [14:31] <annevk> I guess it's somewhat useful when iterating through a bunch of them; nevermind
- # [14:32] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I'd be cautious in calling any geometry conventions a "standard" :-)
- # [14:32] <Philip`> People can't even decide which handedness to use for axes, or which way around to write matrices
- # [14:33] <Philip`> That orientation spec says "Positive rotation around an axis is defined as clockwise when viewed along the positive direction of the axis."
- # [14:34] <MikeSmith> oh, handedness... this is ringing a bell now, thumbs-up, positive is in direction of the way fingers curl
- # [14:34] <MikeSmith> so something like that
- # [14:36] <Philip`> MikeSmith: The spec says C is perpendicular to the screen and outwards, so if the screen is lying flat on its back then C is vertically upwards
- # [14:36] <Philip`> so you have to look along the upwards direction
- # [14:36] <Philip`> i.e. from beneath
- # [14:36] <Philip`> and then rotate clockwise (for positive angles)
- # [14:36] <MikeSmith> ah
- # [14:36] <Philip`> which is equivalent to anticlockwise when you're looking down on it
- # [14:37] <MikeSmith> I see
- # [14:39] <Philip`> (and you start with the screen lying flat on its back with the top pointing North)
- # [14:39] <Philip`> (and rotate around C first)
- # [14:39] <Philip`> (so that's the right way to turn it to make its top point West)
- # [14:39] <MikeSmith> 了解
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- # [14:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, some chrome devs in Japan are starting work CSS Paged Media implementation
- # [15:00] <annevk> sad day for paper
- # [15:00] <annevk> :p
- # [15:00] <annevk> but euh, yeah, the CSSOM story is kind of weak for paged media
- # [15:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: is the CSSDOM a comedy or a tragedy?
- # [15:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: is the editor of the CSSOM spec a tragic hero?
- # [15:03] <annevk> he lacks time and superpowers
- # [15:03] * gsnedders wants to go and study English.
- # [15:03] <annevk> but he's doing some work on it at the moment, mostly fixing minor things
- # [15:04] <MikeSmith> ...and he will eventually reveal himself in his full glory
- # [15:04] <MikeSmith> like the Transfiguration
- # [15:05] * gsnedders wonders when that comment comes from MikeSmith whether it means a Gnostic Transfiguration
- # [15:05] <annevk> MikeSmith, it's just me
- # [15:07] <Dashiva> Is it strange that I find MikeSmith more understandable when he speaks Japanese?
- # [15:07] <MikeSmith> heh
- # [15:08] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: "I believe he's coming back, like he said, ... in the twinkling of an eye, he'll split the Eastern sky"
- # [15:15] <MikeSmith> heh, "The Web leaves no edge case unexercised"
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- # [15:29] <annevk> MikeSmith, but anything specific about the CSSOM?
- # [15:29] <Creap> has there been discussion on having something like an validate=false attribute on input elements?
- # [15:30] <annevk> there is a novalidate attribute on submit buttons
- # [15:30] <Creap> oh, I'll try that
- # [15:30] <MikeSmith> annevk: no, was just thinking that it'd be nice to see CSSOM spec see that light of day eventually
- # [15:31] <annevk> here it is: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/
- # [15:31] <Creap> I think it would be useful on an input level though
- # [15:32] <Creap> I have some URL fields which are to contain variables represented with %s
- # [15:32] <Creap> but not all fields in the form
- # [15:33] <annevk> just use type=text?
- # [15:33] <Creap> yes, I'm doing that now
- # [15:33] <Creap> but it will mean other benefits of the URL fields are lost, such as special keyboards on mobiles and URL completion
- # [15:34] * annevk wonders if Leonard is a Larry-proxy :p
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- # [15:44] <hsivonen> regarding http://www.useragentman.com/blog/2010/03/09/cross-browser-css-transforms-even-in-ie/ what font rasterization method do Chrome and Opera use on Windows?
- # [15:45] * hsivonen wildly guesses Firefox and Safari let the Windows font rasterizer perform the rasterization with a matrix
- # [15:46] <gsnedders> AFAIK we have our own
- # [15:46] <hsivonen> do Chrome and Opera do the same bug force ClearType on even if the user has it off system-wide?
- # [15:46] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok
- # [15:46] <hsivonen> gsnedders: can you say if it's FreeType or something yet different?
- # [15:46] <gsnedders> (But that's just a vague memory, and may be totally wrong)
- # [15:47] <hsivonen> Chrome on Linux in those screenshots is using subpixel AA but Windows and Mac aren't
- # [15:47] <hsivonen> which hints at OS font rasterizer
- # [15:49] <hsivonen> aside: I don't understand why systems offer subpixel AA. On my LCDs, the color channels are always so well aligned that grayscale AA looks nice but subpixel AA looks like colors are leaking at the edges of black glyphs
- # [15:50] * hsivonen always configures Macs to use the "CRT" AA and Ubuntu to use grayscale AA
- # [15:50] <hsivonen> even with LCDs that is
- # [15:52] <hsivonen> am I using unusually good screens or is subpixel AA snakeoil?
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- # [15:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: I get noticably nicer (to my eyes) results with subpixel smoothing
- # [15:59] <jgraham> But I think that it is more related to expectations than anything
- # [16:03] * gsnedders has had varying results
- # [16:03] <annevk> MikeSmith, I'm not particularly interested to be honest in putting CSSOM on TR/
- # [16:04] <annevk> MikeSmith, I have personally not noticed a whole lot of positive things coming from TR/. Actually mostly emails from people being confused or looking at TR/ while they should be looking at the editor's draft...
- # [16:06] * Philip` prefers it with sub-pixel rendering enabled on Linux
- # [16:06] <Philip`> on a cheap laptop display and on a better LCD
- # [16:07] <Philip`> It's subtle enough that I don't notice the colours, and its makes vertical lines a tiny bit thicker so they better match the non-axis-aligned lines, I think
- # [16:07] <Philip`> s/its/it/
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- # [16:18] <jgraham> On my display subpixel rendering gives better contrast compared to greyscale smoothing
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- # [16:21] <boblet> hsivonen: maybe you’ve got good eyesight, or maybe you’re sitting too close to the monitor. AA works when your brain does the smoothing
- # [16:25] <hsivonen> I also think ClearType is ugly
- # [16:26] <hsivonen> and one reason I didn't switch from Mac to Gnome earlier was that around 2003 FreeType sucked too much
- # [16:27] <boblet> typography on Windows is offensive :)
- # [16:28] <hsivonen> hinting is *so* nineties
- # [16:28] <hsivonen> shape-preserving AA FTW!
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- # [16:51] <TabAtkins> Argh, I really wish Richard would send plain-text emails. It's very apparent that there's a mismatch between the visual size of some font metric on his screen and mine. (Likely pts.)
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- # [16:57] * annevk just reads it as text/plain
- # [17:07] <JonathanNeal> Hello
- # [17:08] <TabAtkins> annevk: I'd read it as text/plain too, except that some people use indent-based quoting which I need to read as HTML to follow.
- # [17:09] <Dashiva> If people only used semantic markup ;)
- # [17:11] <annevk> TabAtkins, either my email client picks up on that or I just don't read those emails... not sure which it is
- # [17:11] <TabAtkins> I want everyone to just use Markdown like normal people.
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- # [17:17] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: I think you need a new definition of normal
- # [17:17] <TabAtkins> The point of Markdown is that it *is* what normal people type. ^_^
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- # [17:19] <Dashiva> No, it's what some dude thinks looks somewhat similar to what normal people type
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- # [17:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: where's the text that says to fire 'error' for <img src="">?
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- # [18:04] <Dashiva> This is rich"These actions make it more
- # [18:04] <Dashiva> difficult to determine exactly what the person wants
- # [18:05] <Dashiva> Coming from the person who suggested splitting out microdata to another spec, and then immediately turned around and opposed that split-out spec
- # [18:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: a positive effect of publishing in TR/ is that doing so obligates and WG members to either disclose any related patents they may hold, or if they don't disclose them, they are agreeing to license them freely to any implementors of the spec
- # [18:07] <MikeSmith> I don't know whether that is an important consideration for the CSSOM spec or not, though
- # [18:07] <annevk> most features are in a previous copy of the spec, but doesn't the patent policy only take effect for RECs?
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- # [18:08] <annevk> if we published REC-snapshots regularly the incentive would be bigger I guess
- # [18:08] <MikeSmith> no, it takes effect on publication of the FPWD
- # [18:08] <annevk> but now that getting to REC takes a decade I wonder how valuable the patent policy is
- # [18:08] <MikeSmith> after FPWD, WG members have 5 months to either disclose or default to licensing freely if not
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- # [18:09] <othermaciej> FPWD and LCWD trigger patent review and disclosure obligations
- # [18:10] <annevk> until REC they can still sue afaik
- # [18:10] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Requirements
- # [18:10] <othermaciej> technically I think the obligation to actually license is not until REC
- # [18:10] <annevk> indeed
- # [18:10] <annevk> which makes the policy somewhat incompatible with how specs are made
- # [18:11] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah
- # [18:11] <MikeSmith> or, rather, I should say, I can understand it being seen that way
- # [18:14] <othermaciej> the potentially problematic part is that we call for implementations at CR, but patents may not be licensed until REC
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- # [18:15] * Dashiva wonders if XHTML is by definition well-formed XML, or if non-well-formed XML is (some classification, e.g. invalid) XHTML
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- # [18:21] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: one way to answer that question is to not use the term XHTML at all but instead always refer to it as the "XML syntax for HTML"
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- # [18:22] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: That makes XHTML seem like a second-class citizen, subordinate to the glorious HTML
- # [18:24] <workmad3> XHTML is an XML language for HTML, like KML is an XML language for map data, and SVG is an XML language for vector graphics
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- # [18:26] <MikeSmith> exHTML
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- # [18:54] <AryehGregor> "Even though the Internet was invented in the U.S. over 20 years ago," http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/internet-in-america-youtube-interview.html
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- # [18:54] <gsnedders> Well, over 40.
- # [18:54] <AryehGregor> I guess it's true that 35 years ago is over 20 years ago, but that seems like a funny way to put it.
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- # [18:54] <AryehGregor> 40 is a bit of a stretch. TCP/IP isn't that old.
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- # [19:00] <AryehGregor> Neat: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LJuAPqyUVas/S5kFX5CnVYI/AAAAAAAAACs/vnO3XvDQ7HQ/s1600-h/sputnik.png
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- # [19:09] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/mid/63df84f1003110952i369edbbfueea857bbc64cda86@mail.gmail.com - the xml core wg has the same reasoning as julian (while i agree with sicking)
- # [19:10] <gsnedders> Challenge: teach me about pointers in C++.
- # [19:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: I'm not sure they're as complex as you think
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- # [19:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: They're memory addresses
- # [19:19] <Philip`> That's all you need to know, and you can deduce the rest
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- # [19:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: you think you could find pages that have a <meta> that could be interpreted as an encoding decl but doesn't have http-equiv=content-type?
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- # [19:25] <jgraham> Philip`: Presumably you also need to know that they are typed
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- # [19:33] <jgraham> (unless you are using a weird language like IDL -- Interactive Data Language, not the other one -- of course. But the less said about that the better)
- # [19:33] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: What Philip` said, plus pointers are often used to gain pass-by-reference behavior when only pass-by-value is allowed.
- # [19:34] <TabAtkins> That is, passing a pointer as an argument to a function allows you to pass large data structures around without copying them, and allows you to modify them in functionally-impure ways.
- # [19:36] <Philip`> jgraham: True - you need to know they're memory addresses, and (intptr_t)((T*)p+1) == (intptr_t)p+sizeof(T), and you can deduce the rest
- # [19:37] <Philip`> zcorpan: Maybe, but it depends on exactly what that means and whether it's easy to code
- # [19:39] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.com/NhuD82La
- # [19:39] <gsnedders> How does that crash?
- # [19:40] <Philip`> You should run it in Valgrind
- # [19:40] <Philip`> which tells you useful things about pointer errors
- # [19:40] <Philip`> In this case, p1 etc are uninitialised values
- # [19:41] <Philip`> so they contain random garbage (whatever happened to be on the stack)
- # [19:41] <Philip`> which is interpreted as a memory address (because pointers are memory addresses)
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- # [19:41] <Philip`> and when you try to write something to the content of that memory address (*p1 = ...) it writes to a garbage location
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- # [20:00] <AryehGregor> Which most likely means the program tries writing to a page that's not in its page tables, so the CPU raises a fault, and the OS sees you're doing something crazy and decides to put you down for your own good.
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- # [20:01] <AryehGregor> You need to ensure that p1 points to something first, like: p1 = malloc(sizeof p1); or something (my C isn't very good).
- # [20:01] <Philip`> That would allocate the size of the pointer, not the size of the pointee
- # [20:02] <AryehGregor> Rats.
- # [20:02] <AryehGregor> p1 = malloc(sizeof int); then.
- # [20:02] <Philip`> Better to do int* p1 = new int;
- # [20:02] <AryehGregor> malloc() will pick a memory address on the heap where there's enough free space, note internally that the memory is being used, and return the address at the start of the allocated block.
- # [20:02] <Philip`> since this is C++
- # [20:02] <AryehGregor> Well, if you're using C++.
- # [20:02] <Philip`> gsnedders said C++ :-)
- # [20:02] <AryehGregor> So he did.
- # [20:03] <Philip`> He could have been lying, though
- # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Anyway, so do int *p1 = new int; int *p2 = new int; int *p3 = new int; or whatever, then you can use them largely as you expect as long as you put * before them whenever you use them.
- # [20:04] <AryehGregor> Except that they're allocated on the heap, not the stack, so for instance, you can return the pointer from a function safely.
- # [20:04] <AryehGregor> And allocate very large things to them. And if you don't delete them later, you've caused a memory leak.
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- # [20:06] <Philip`> You can return ints from a function safely too :-p
- # [20:07] <Philip`> Oh, I guess you mean like "int* f() { int x = 25; int* y = &x; return y; }"
- # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Well, you can return auto-generated copies of ints safely.
- # [20:08] <AryehGregor> Well, yes. I'm not entirely sure why you'd want a pointer to an int to begin with. But they're essential for things like structs.
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- # [20:09] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, returning a copy of an int costs less than returning a pointer to it, so it's not really a useful distinction in the case of ints.
- # [20:09] <annevk> did sicking just offer me cookies?
- # [20:09] <AryehGregor> Well, I guess it is if you want to modify it.
- # [20:09] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yes. Take him up on it and send some to me.
- # [20:09] <AryehGregor> annevk, where?
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- # [20:10] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Reference vs value distinction is very important!
- # [20:10] * annevk likes cookies
- # [20:10] * zcorpan too
- # [20:10] <AryehGregor> Okay, but "returning x" doesn't necessarily mean "returning the value of x" or "returning a reference to x", it can mean either.
- # [20:10] <AryehGregor> So your correction was unnecessary, anyway.
- # [20:10] * AryehGregor hasn't had cookies in a while, should get some today
- # [20:11] * AryehGregor doesn't think it's worth it to send cookies intercontinentally, though
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- # [20:11] <Philip`> I thought cookies were considered obsolete
- # [20:12] * zcorpan goes to get a homemade cookie
- # [20:13] <zcorpan> mmmmmm
- # [20:13] <annevk> Philip`, that has been removed from the draft
- # [20:13] <annevk> zcorpan, aaah, i want!
- # [20:14] <AryehGregor> I haven't had a homemade cookie in *ages*.
- # [20:14] <AryehGregor> Why do they always taste so much better than store-bought ones? :(
- # [20:14] <AryehGregor> Someone needs to invent packaged food that tastes good.
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- # [20:15] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Sure, but often when talking about "returning *an* int" or whatnot you are implying that it's the same object throughout. Understanding how value semantics break that implication is important.
- # [20:16] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: There are good cookies in the store, but generally they're made by the bakery there. There is no such thing as a factory-produced cookie that tastes good.
- # [20:16] <zcorpan> you should buy cookies from a pastry
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- # [20:16] <Philip`> AryehGregor: How does the cost of the ingredients and time taken to homemake them compare to the price of the store-bought ones?
- # [20:17] <TabAtkins> I usually eat pastries, rather than bartering with them.
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- # [20:17] <zcorpan> wait pastry might not be the word i'm looking for
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- # [20:17] <TabAtkins> Pastry shop?
- # [20:17] <Philip`> Pâtisserie?
- # [20:17] <AryehGregor> Philip`, time is worth much more to me than tasty cookies, alas.
- # [20:18] <AryehGregor> If there were a good bakery around I could use that, I guess.
- # [20:18] <AryehGregor> But the only kosher bakery in my neighborhood makes cookies that taste about as good as packaged stuff.
- # [20:18] <TabAtkins> Baking cookies is fun by itself, so the time cost is negligible.
- # [20:18] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Simple solution: stop eating kosher.
- # [20:20] <zcorpan> annevk: wait you have a conforming badge?
- # [20:20] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, or I could move to Israel, where at least half the stores are kosher even in the least religious parts.
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- # [20:21] <TabAtkins> That's also a good idea. The IDF girls are *hot*.
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- # [20:21] <AryehGregor> My sister is in the IDF.
- # [20:21] <AryehGregor> Air force, specifically. Non-combat, though.
- # [20:21] <AryehGregor> She works in a chemistry lab of some kind.
- # [20:21] <annevk> zcorpan, who doesn't?
- # [20:22] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't. but i have cookies
- # [20:22] <AryehGregor> Conforming badge?
- # [20:23] <annevk> there's something wrong here
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- # [20:25] <zcorpan> Philip`: what i want is a list of occurrences (with the associated url) of <meta> elements that have a content='' attribute whose value matches /^[^;]*;\s*charset=/i and doesn't have an http-equiv attribute with the value 'content-type' (case insensitively)
- # [20:25] <zcorpan> Philip`: i guess the whole thing could be written as grep, but i think it'd be a bit complex and might be easier to do running an html parser
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- # [20:36] <hsivonen> I though my mobile browsers ran out of memory and cut the irc logs short, but it seem krijnh's server is terminating the stream early
- # [20:38] <annevk> yeah, the timeout is fairly short
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- # [20:40] <zcorpan> Philip`: (?i)<meta\s(([^h]|h(?!ttp-equiv=("|')?content-type))[^>]*content=("|')?[^>"';]+;\s*charset=)|(content=("|')?[^>"';]+;\s*charset=[^>]*[^h]|h(?!ttp-equiv=("|')?content-type)))
- # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Under what circumstances is rel="external" actually useful?
- # [20:41] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: i've only seen it as a way to hide target=_blank from validators
- # [20:42] <zcorpan> insert the word 'used' somewhere
- # [20:42] * AryehGregor inserts it before "hide" and becomes confused
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- # [20:47] <TabAtkins> Unrelated: http://poloassassin.typepad.com/blog/2010/03/awesome-dinosaur-comics-that-my-computer-wrote.html
- # [20:47] * AryehGregor saw that
- # [20:48] <AryehGregor> It says something about Dinosaur comics that most of those are pretty plausible.
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- # [21:02] <hsivonen> the TOC of the French translation of Dive into HTML5 isn't in the alphabetical order :-(
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- # [21:04] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, neither is the English translation, as far as I can tell. :)
- # [21:04] <hsivonen> also, the French version demonstrates why it's bad to subset fonts manually and fail to adjust the repertoire when the need for glyphs grows
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- # [21:06] <hsivonen> oh. I got Dive into HTML5 and Dive into Python 3 mixed up
- # [21:06] <hsivonen> and it's the drop caps, not the headings
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- # [22:24] <LoneStar99> have a canvas app, and need to draw a dynamic box which moves around as the cursor is moved...
- # [22:25] <LoneStar99> app = element
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- # [22:25] <Dashiva> Which part are you having problems with?
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- # [22:26] <LoneStar99> drawing the box and allowing to drag along with the cursor
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- # [22:27] <LoneStar99> http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/649/example2.html
- # [22:28] <LoneStar99> want the box to drag along, so that a user knows where the cursor is....
- # [22:28] <LoneStar99> like a red box
- # [22:29] <Dashiva> Use mousemove to track the position of the cursor
- # [22:30] <Dashiva> Each frame, draw the content and then draw the square at the stored cursor position
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- # [22:30] <LoneStar99> yeah got that, confused on if the "box" should be a drawing or "css" box...
- # [22:33] <TabAtkins> If you want it to be part of the <canvas>, should be a drawing. If you're fine with it being a separate overlay, "css box".
- # [22:36] <TabAtkins> The "make an element overlay the <canvas>" approach has the advantage that you don't need to redraw the canvas just to make the box follow the mouse, but if you're redrawing the canvas anyway, it doesn't really matter.
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- # [22:39] <LoneStar99> would I need two canvas elements one for the "drawing" as in http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/649/example2.html and the other for the "red box cursor?"
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- # [22:43] <LoneStar99> ok i think I need two canvas elements... one that draws the red box only once and the other that draws the dynamic drawing
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- # [23:04] <TabAtkins> LoneStar99: You could do that, but it's not necessary. The <canvas> is just a big box for you to draw everything in. You have to handle ensuring that you draw the red box last, but you can certainly do so in the same canvas as your other drawing.
- # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Everyone else: I'm having an issue with some scripting that works in Firefox, but fails identically in Chrome and IE.
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- # [23:06] <TabAtkins> At this page - http://74.54.176.50/~spinnerg/index.php?page=spin-schedule - FF makes the table cells grow when you hover them and on click brings up an overlay and a datepicker.
- # [23:06] <LoneStar99> TabAtkins: is it possible to have different layers in the same drawing?
- # [23:06] <LoneStar99> sorry canvas
- # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Both IE and Chrome, though, fail at some point earlier, and won't animate the cells properly.
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- # [23:06] <TabAtkins> LoneStar99: Sure, though you have to handle that yourself. <canvas> does not have any native idea of 'layers'.
- # [23:06] <TabAtkins> (Though you can fake it with multiple <canvas>es put on top of each other, as you suggested.)
- # [23:07] <LoneStar99> ok
- # [23:07] <LoneStar99> let me try that
- # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Within a single <canvas>, though, you just have to keep track of drawing order by yourself, and ensure that things on higher "layers" get drawn after things on lower ones.
- # [23:08] <LoneStar99> ok
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- # [23:08] <LoneStar99> thanks, let me experiement
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- # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Hmm, looks like my problem might lie in the color animation library. Damn.
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- # Session Close: Fri Mar 12 00:00:00 2010
The end :)