/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-14 / end

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  81. # [08:31] <Tripknotix> hey everyone
  82. # [08:31] <Tripknotix> long time no see
  83. # [08:31] <Tripknotix> i had a question on whether or not webgl or ogl would be implemented in html5, or if it will continue to only be pushed by the browser companies themselves
  84. # [08:34] <Hixie> i don't understand the difference
  85. # [08:38] <othermaciej> Tripknotix: html5 is a spec, not an implementation
  86. # [08:38] <othermaciej> so nothing will be "implemented in html5"
  87. # [08:39] <othermaciej> if you're asking whether the WebGL spec will be incorporated into the HTML5 specification, rather than being published as a separate specification by a different standards body, I believe the answer is "no".
  88. # [08:39] <Tripknotix> haha
  89. # [08:39] <Tripknotix> are you on the whatwg team?
  90. # [08:39] <Tripknotix> because that is interesting news =0
  91. # [08:39] <Tripknotix> =)
  92. # [08:39] <Tripknotix> have not gotten a positive answer before
  93. # [08:40] <othermaciej> let me correct that and say the answer is "probably not"
  94. # [08:40] <othermaciej> in other words, WebGL will most likely continue to be a separate spec, published by Khronos
  95. # [08:41] <othermaciej> although I would not describe that as "only [] pushed by the browser companies themselves"
  96. # [08:41] <Tripknotix> well you know the difference
  97. # [08:41] <Tripknotix> =)
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  102. # [08:46] <Tripknotix> thanks for the help
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  158. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: interesting discussion about ruby annotations continues on the HTML5 Japanese IG list -
  159. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-jp/2010Mar/thread.html#msg7
  160. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> at some point we'll probably want to post a summary of that to the public-html list
  161. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> note that Shinyu Murakami is an implementor of an XSL-FO engine that also now has CSS print support (like Prince)
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  163. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess that most of the substantive discussion there is all in English
  164. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> except for the examples
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  166. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> Murakami-san's latest message is more about meta issues
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  169. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: on Nikunj asking about review of the IndexedDB spec, I guess you've seen that Jeremy Orlow seems to have started on an implementation
  170. # [13:10] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I've seen that he has been talking about it
  171. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: he's made at least one or two related commits so far, I think
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  173. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> though the commit messages described them as "baby steps" or something
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  175. # [13:11] <othermaciej> I am not sure why Nikunj asked me and not Mozilla
  176. # [13:12] <othermaciej> I am also not sure Apple will have substantially different feedback than Google, since if we ship it we'll likely use the same implementation
  177. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> maybe he asked because he's already talked with Mozilla off-list
  178. # [13:13] <othermaciej> (though I don't believe Jeremy consulted with anyone at Apple about his spec feedback or his nascent implementation)
  179. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I think he may have actually written a design doc
  180. # [13:14] * MikeSmith goes to look
  181. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> http://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/developers/design-documents/indexeddb
  182. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> maybe he is just planning to wait to get that posted to webkit-dev after more discussion within the chromium team
  183. # [13:17] <othermaciej> he did post a comment on webkit-dev, but not a pointer to the design document
  184. # [13:17] <othermaciej> and it was more of an "I'm doing it" comment than an "I want your input" comment
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  187. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: in the recent public-html thread about conformance, you mention both authoring conformance and document conformance. Do you mean to make any distinction between those two, or are you using them synonymously?
  188. # [13:44] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I meant them to be synonyms, but I may have used the in confusing ways
  189. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> no, not really confusing
  190. # [13:44] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: the biggest surprise to me was how many issues are purely editorial
  191. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> I just wasn't sure if it was intentional
  192. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, I saw your note about that
  193. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> given that the are just editorial, it would see likely that we could get agreement about those more easily
  194. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> or maybe I'm just being optimistic
  195. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> overly optimistic
  196. # [13:48] <othermaciej> if it was easy to get agreement about those topics, they wouldn't be tracker issues...
  197. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> true
  198. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> but there are some cases of bugs getting escalated prematurely
  199. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> "premature escalation" is the technical process term, I think
  200. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> from Robert's Rules of Order
  201. # [13:50] <othermaciej> I haven't heard the term
  202. # [13:50] <othermaciej> what do you mean exactly?
  203. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> I'm joking about the term
  204. # [13:50] <othermaciej> I see
  205. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> but I mean that some bugs have gotten escalated without much discussion
  206. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> or to look at it from another perspective, they maybe should not have been been moved to resolved=wontfix without more discussion
  207. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> but then some of them probably should not have been raised to begin with
  208. # [13:54] <othermaciej> I do think that for many of those editorial issues, there wasn't a good faith effort to work out an acceptable compromise
  209. # [13:54] <othermaciej> or to determine if the issue actually matters to anyone besides the original before escalating
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  211. # [13:54] <othermaciej> not that those are required, but it would certainly save me work if people did that before escalating
  212. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> yeah
  213. # [13:58] <othermaciej> oh, that reminds me, I promised to move old bugs to VERIFIED
  214. # [14:00] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: did I ever show you the graph I made of our bug in/out rate?
  215. # [14:01] <othermaciej> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AoCAfo_LQ5_kdFFWWmpCMWxsLUN2TW9VYi1uNEJGenc&hl=en
  216. # [14:01] <othermaciej> I'm still not sure what happened in August that so massively increased use of the bug tracker
  217. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I had not seen this yet
  218. # [14:03] <othermaciej> if you look at this chart, and also at issue in/out rates, you would conclude that we didn't start serious work until August 2009
  219. # [14:03] <Philip`> August was when the automatic bug submission form was added to the spec, which might explain it
  220. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> Philip`: well, that would be one factor
  221. # [14:04] <othermaciej> ok, I thought that might be it (part of it, anyway)
  222. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> the other factor is that's when some people started putting serious effort into bug resolution
  223. # [14:04] * Quits: nessy1 (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  224. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> e.g., Maciej
  225. # [14:05] <Philip`> Looks like over 50% of reported bugs come from that tool
  226. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> but most of those are typically less controversial
  227. # [14:06] <othermaciej> of those 211 bugs, 183 were originated by contributor@whatwg.org
  228. # [14:07] <othermaciej> conclusion: if we stopped publishing the WHATWG copy of the spec, we'd get 90% less feedback in bugzilla
  229. # [14:07] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote host closed the connection)
  230. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> heh
  231. # [14:07] <othermaciej> total filed since last august: 1463; total filed by contributor@whatwg.org: 1097
  232. # [14:08] <othermaciej> ok, so only 75%
  233. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> still, the biggest factor, for sure
  234. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> but not the most interesting factor
  235. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> I think the life cycle of most of those contributor@whatwg.org bugs is relatively short
  236. # [14:09] <othermaciej> right now the life cycle of nearly all bugs is short
  237. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> some of them are just background noise
  238. # [14:10] <othermaciej> I don't have a problem with lots of incoming bugs as long as the rate of resolving them keeps up
  239. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> also, a non-insignificant percentage of those contributor@whatg.org bugs are spam
  240. # [14:10] <othermaciej> I think lots of incoming bugs is a very postive sign
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  244. # [14:10] <othermaciej> very few bugs get closed as INVALID each month, so the spam proportion is pretty low
  245. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> yeah
  246. # [14:11] <othermaciej> I think there's people who wish the whatwg copy of the spec did not exist, and they may be seriously underestimating the degree to which it helps us get good technical feedback, even in the HTML WG
  247. # [14:12] <othermaciej> I did not expect before looking that so many of our bugs came from the comment form
  248. # [14:12] <othermaciej> I personally hate the comment form because it makes it too hard to track bugs I filed, but clearly it is a powerful tool for getting feedback
  249. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> as far as any increase of the non-contributor@whatwg.org bugs, I think a big part of the reason for that would be that we began to advertise bugzilla to the group as being an encouraged means for requesting spec changes
  250. # [14:13] <Philip`> If I couldn't use the comment form, I'd just send email instead (because that's easier for me than manually filing bugs)
  251. # [14:13] <Philip`> so it probably wouldn't have a significant effect on the amount of feedback I would send
  252. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> we should add a comment form to the W3C version
  253. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> too
  254. # [14:14] <Philip`> (I track bugs by appending "[pt]" to each one, so they're easy to find in a Bugzilla query)
  255. # [14:15] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Then you'd need to run a CGI script on the domains that the spec is hosted on (dev.w3.org and www.w3.org, I guess)
  256. # [14:15] <Philip`> Is that easy/possible?
  257. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> anything's possible
  258. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> but dev.w3.org is not set up for now, at least
  259. # [14:16] <othermaciej> let's see how bugzilla does by mass-marking 500 bugs
  260. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I think maybe www.w3.org is not either
  261. # [14:17] <othermaciej> Philip`: you'd probably send email to whatwg@whatwg.org, but in your case I imagine it would go to public-html instead of the whatwg list didn't exist
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  263. # [14:22] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: non-comment-form bug rate did not go up until September, but it has been about 2.5 times the previous level
  264. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> I see
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  266. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: did you intend to include issue 5758 in those you moved to resolved=verified?
  267. # [14:32] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I just did a batch move on all bugs that were resolved before last October
  268. # [14:32] <othermaciej> it looks like that was one of them, so yes
  269. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> OK
  270. # [14:33] <othermaciej> looking at it now, it looks to me like it should me marked with TrackerIssue and associated with ISSUE-9
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  274. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> yeah
  275. # [14:33] <othermaciej> (but still VERIFIED)
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  277. # [14:34] <othermaciej> or reopened - I'm not really sure what to do with a LATER resolution
  278. # [14:34] <othermaciej> I wish our bugzilla didn't have LATER or REMIND because they don't make sense
  279. # [14:34] <othermaciej> I just count them as rejections when I make the monthly bug stats
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  283. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> 155 new bugmail messages in my inbox..
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  286. # [14:42] <nessy> 5758 should not be counted as a rejection, indeed
  287. # [14:43] <nessy> but alas, I don't think we really need an open bug to introduce media a11y - we all know it's required :)
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The end :)