/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-16 / end

Options:

1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 16 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@y226086.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
4. # [00:08] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@92.254.21.251) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
5. # [00:08] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Leaving)
6. # [00:13] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.43) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
7. # [00:15] * Quits: krijn (~krijnhoet@g179009.upc-g.chello.nl) (Quit: krijn)
8. # [00:18] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.121.113)
9. # [00:19] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.30)
10. # [00:22] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@216.239.45.130) (Quit: dglazkov)
11. # [00:31] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
12. # [00:36] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote host closed the connection)
13. # [00:44] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
14. # [00:47] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.157)
15. # [00:50] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-3.lv.lv.cox.net) (Quit: shepazu)
16. # [00:53] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.30) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
17. # [00:59] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
18. # [01:00] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.110)
19. # [01:02] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
20. # [01:05] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
21. # [01:10] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.110) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
22. # [01:20] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@pool-98-117-216-229.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
23. # [01:20] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.110)
24. # [01:21] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
25. # [01:23] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-67-116.sibtele.com)
26. # [01:26] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-24-4-102-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
27. # [01:29] * Joins: rauchg (~rauchg@75.101.111.130)
28. # [01:33] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Quit: cying)
29. # [01:34] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
30. # [01:35] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-67-116.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
31. # [01:37] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-oolnnwgpkrxvzooe) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
32. # [01:37] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-24-4-102-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
33. # [01:38] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-67-116.sibtele.com)
34. # [01:40] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.110) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
35. # [01:48] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-24-4-102-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
36. # [01:49] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
37. # [01:51] * Joins: dglazkov_ (~dglazkov@216.239.45.130)
38. # [01:54] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-24-4-102-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
39. # [01:54] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
40. # [02:03] * Joins: Rik`_ (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
41. # [02:04] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
42. # [02:07] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
43. # [02:07] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
44. # [02:14] * Quits: ap_ (~ap@17.246.18.241) (Quit: ap_)
45. # [02:14] * Joins: lazni (~lazni@118.71.4.232)
46. # [02:23] * Joins: paradisaeidae_ (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au)
47. # [02:24] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
48. # [02:38] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.203.15.230)
49. # [02:39] <MikeSmithX> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/RDFa-DOM-API
50. # [02:40] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
51. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> boblet: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4846&to=4847
52. # [02:45] <boblet> MikeSmith: interesting
53. # [02:51] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
54. # [02:52] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
55. # [02:52] * Quits: paradisaeidae_ (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
56. # [02:56] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.203.15.230) (Quit: weinig)
57. # [02:57] <boblet> MikeSmith: was there a particular reason for pinging me on that btw?
58. # [02:57] <MikeSmith> um, I thought you had asked me about something related to that
59. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> but I guess it was somebody else
60. # [02:59] <boblet> not that I recall… :)
61. # [03:06] * Joins: dglazkov_ (~dglazkov@c-24-4-102-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
62. # [03:10] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@216.239.45.130) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
63. # [03:10] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
64. # [03:24] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
65. # [03:24] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@112-68-244-233.eonet.ne.jp)
66. # [03:41] * Quits: roc__ (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc__)
67. # [03:42] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
68. # [03:44] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
69. # [03:48] * Quits: johnst (~johnst@x1-6-00-07-95-57-08-bb.k270.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
70. # [03:51] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-kuuespvsdehloksj) (Quit: dinnertime)
71. # [03:53] * Quits: lazni (~lazni@118.71.4.232) (Quit: Leaving.)
72. # [03:56] * Joins: paradisaeidae_ (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au)
73. # [03:59] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
74. # [04:01] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
75. # [04:03] * Quits: paradisaeidae_ (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
76. # [04:09] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-70-165-196-83.lv.lv.cox.net)
77. # [04:13] * Quits: drunknbass_work (~aaron@pool-71-105-80-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
78. # [04:14] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
79. # [04:17] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
80. # [04:25] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-145-1.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
81. # [04:30] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-49-7-180.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
82. # [04:33] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@pool-98-117-216-229.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: taf2)
83. # [04:54] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
84. # [05:01] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-95-222-120-117.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Verlassend)
85. # [05:03] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.157) (Quit: othermaciej)
86. # [05:04] * Quits: rauchg (~rauchg@75.101.111.130) (Quit: rauchg)
87. # [05:05] * Joins: wycats_ (~wycats@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net)
88. # [05:06] * Quits: wycats (~wycats@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
89. # [05:06] * wycats_ is now known as wycats
90. # [05:19] * Quits: wycats (~wycats@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net) (Quit: wycats)
91. # [05:35] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-xqlgskkixwqjgvqw) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
92. # [05:39] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
93. # [05:41] * Joins: roc_ (~roc@121-72-195-150.dsl.telstraclear.net)
94. # [05:53] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
95. # [05:56] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-24-4-102-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
96. # [06:01] * Joins: paradisaeidae_ (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au)
97. # [06:02] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
98. # [06:12] * Quits: jwm (~jwm@dev.dist.us) (Quit: leaving)
99. # [06:23] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
100. # [06:24] * Quits: paradisaeidae_ (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
101. # [06:30] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Remote host closed the connection)
102. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I don't see what http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/fixedprefixsimple would give us that we can't already do with the class attribute
103. # [06:47] * Joins: wycats (~wycats@c-69-181-216-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
104. # [07:01] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-49-7-180.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
105. # [07:03] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-70-165-196-83.lv.lv.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
106. # [07:05] * Quits: rsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
107. # [07:07] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
108. # [07:09] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
109. # [07:16] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-49-7-180.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
110. # [07:18] * Joins: rsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
111. # [07:25] * Joins: paradisaeidae_ (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au)
112. # [07:26] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
113. # [07:26] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
114. # [07:29] * Quits: roc_ (~roc@121-72-195-150.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc_)
115. # [07:37] * Joins: wycats_ (~wycats@c-69-181-216-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
116. # [07:38] * Quits: wycats (~wycats@c-69-181-216-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
117. # [07:38] * wycats_ is now known as wycats
118. # [07:38] * Quits: doublec (~doublec@li30-216.members.linode.com) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
119. # [07:38] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
120. # [07:40] * Joins: doublec (~doublec@li30-216.members.linode.com)
121. # [07:41] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.86.195)
122. # [07:45] * Joins: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
123. # [07:46] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
124. # [08:10] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
125. # [08:11] <wycats> e
126. # [08:13] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
127. # [08:18] * Joins: roc_ (~roc@121-72-195-150.dsl.telstraclear.net)
128. # [08:19] * Joins: JonathanNeal_oww (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
129. # [08:20] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
130. # [08:21] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
131. # [08:25] * Quits: JonathanNeal_oww (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
132. # [08:26] * Joins: JonathanNeal_oww (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
133. # [08:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i don't think we'd have wanted apple to invent a new class name for <canvas>
134. # [08:28] <Hixie> class names are for authors
135. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I guess I can't see that Rob's fixedprefixsimple proposal would be much value in practice for anything more author-private use
136. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: is Apple has used this approach for canvas, what would it have looked like? <img -apple-canvas> ?
137. # [08:34] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.121.113) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
138. # [08:39] * Joins: Mau`werk (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
139. # [08:39] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
140. # [08:44] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
141. # [08:45] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-202.cpe.unwired.net.au)
142. # [08:46] * Quits: paradisaeidae_ (~chatzilla@r125-63-186-205.cpe.unwired.net.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
143. # [08:47] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.86.195) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
144. # [08:49] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@112.199.175.7)
145. # [08:51] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@173-13-145-30-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
146. # [08:52] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
147. # [08:52] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host)
148. # [08:52] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
149. # [08:53] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.83.193)
150. #
151. # Session Start: Tue Mar 16 12:21:07 2010
152. # Session Ident: #whatwg
153. # [12:21] * Now talking in #whatwg
154. # [12:21] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
155. # [12:21] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
156. # [12:21] <annevk> no_mind, we've yet to figure out styling form controls unfortunately
157. # [12:22] <annevk> though what WebKit is doing for controls in combination with appearance and all seems quite nice, but nobody has written down all the details in a specification yet...
158. # [12:22] <no_mind> hmm so that spec is yet to be written...
159. # [12:23] <annevk> pretty much
160. # [12:23] <no_mind> how one start writing such spec
161. # [12:23] <no_mind> where ever I give html5 demo, all designers ask this question
162. # [12:23] <annevk> usually by figuring out the fundamentals
163. # [12:24] <annevk> e.g. how does form styling currently work across various platforms, what is the effect of setting various properties, etc.
164. # [12:24] <annevk> then figuring out how appearance affects that, what pseudo-classes are supported, how they all work together
165. # [12:25] <annevk> and while testing all that writing down implementation criteria for someone that tries to emulate it
166. # [12:25] <annevk> once we know the fundamentals we can start poking holes and enable new stuff
167. # [12:25] <annevk> that's pretty much how we're doing most new features that are somewhat based on old APIs
168. # [12:26] <no_mind> ok
169. # [12:26] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
170. # [12:26] <no_mind> that will mean we have to add new css controls or attributes ?
171. # [12:27] <annevk> maybe
172. # [12:27] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@93-136-3-27.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
173. # [12:27] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@93-136-3-27.adsl.net.t-com.hr) (Changing host)
174. # [12:27] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
175. # [12:27] <annevk> another idea is that appearance:none would disable all styling and you would create the entire control yourself using XBL
176. # [12:28] <annevk> though we'd need some hooks from XBL into the form API to make that completely feasible
177. # [12:28] <annevk> e.g. so you can declare a form control matches :out-of-range and things like that
178. # [12:29] <annevk> anyway, as things stand today CSS is not defined for form controls
179. # [12:29] <annevk> the CSS WG declared it out of scope and nobody volunteered to fix it
180. # [12:30] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@213.236.208.247)
181. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> XBL2 will save us
182. # [12:38] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.82.155)
183. # [12:39] <Dashiva> But who will save us from XBL2?
184. # [12:40] <no_mind> annevk, while leaving other form controls is fine, but styling of calender and time control is very important
185. # [12:45] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@z186083.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
186. # [12:52] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.82.155) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
187. # [12:53] * Quits: surkov_ (~surkov@client-73-57.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov_)
188. # [12:53] <asmodai> wtb: printing of MathML formulae in Mozilla
189. # [12:55] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-73-57.sibtele.com)
190. # [12:58] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@112.199.175.7) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
191. # [12:59] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.83.213)
192. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> fwiw, I concur with no_mind about calendar-widget styling being important for designers
193. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> any time I've ever shown a demo of the WF2 input calendar, one of the very first questions is always about whether the style can be changed
194. # [13:02] <no_mind> MikeSmith, same here.
195. # [13:02] <no_mind> I think its time to write a specification for this.
196. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> no_mind: so write one :)
197. # [13:03] <no_mind> I am confused should this be a separate spec or should we add to an existing HTML5 spec
198. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> separate spec
199. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> I'm not myself convinced it's so important to end users
200. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> I do realize that some designers believe it's importan
201. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> the alternative for designers who do is just to keep doing whatever they're doing now to provide calendar widgets in their content
202. # [13:06] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.83.213) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
203. # [13:06] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
204. # [13:09] <no_mind> not to end users but to designers, it is. Like font-face in css
205. # [13:11] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@112.199.175.7)
206. # [13:11] * Joins: klevison (~chatzilla@201-57-250-42.poolip.SDR.embratel.net.br)
207. # [13:12] * Joins: marcin___ (~marcin@ribisel.ofai.at)
208. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> no_mind: well, I think users do actually benefit a lot more from the effects of font-face than they would of calendar-widget styling
209. # [13:13] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.90.75)
210. # [13:13] <klevison> Whati is best browser to test html5 app?
211. # [13:13] <klevison> *What
212. # [13:14] * Quits: BARTdG (~BARTdG@5ED43020.cable.ziggo.nl) (Quit: USB-apparaat voor massa-opslag uit het systeem verwijderd.)
213. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> no_mind: so getting good font-face support is something that to me at least seems actually pretty important for users
214. # [13:14] * Joins: BARTdG (~BARTdG@5ED43020.cable.ziggo.nl)
215. # [13:15] * Parts: BARTdG (~BARTdG@5ED43020.cable.ziggo.nl)
216. # [13:15] * Joins: BARTdG (~BARTdG@5ED43020.cable.ziggo.nl)
217. # [13:15] * Parts: BARTdG (~BARTdG@5ED43020.cable.ziggo.nl)
218. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> klevison: is this a test?
219. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> we can only pick one?
220. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> what do I win if I pick the right one?
221. # [13:16] <klevison> I'm new in this topic
222. # [13:16] <klevison> I'm developer.
223. # [13:17] <klevison> But I wanna know which browser I should user to dev. html5 app
224. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> I guess most people test in multiple browsers
225. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> including in development/pre-release builds
226. # [13:18] <no_mind> MikeSmith, how font-support was important while calendar styling is not ? Both are used by designers
227. # [13:18] <klevison> In your opinion which browser is the best?
228. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> klevison: lynx
229. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> no_mind: because it's more important to me, and I consider myself the ideal end user
230. # [13:19] <klevison> MikeSmith: windows browsers
231. # [13:19] <no_mind> MikeSmith, okies, from my perspective the calender widget needs to blend with rest of look and feel :)
232. # [13:20] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote host closed the connection)
233. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> klevison: I've heard that a lot of Windows users tend to use Internet Explorer for some reason
234. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> if that rumor is true, I'd guess that might be a good target to test your app in
235. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> no_mind: fair enough
236. # [13:28] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
237. # [13:35] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
238. # [13:36] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
239. # [13:36] * Joins: Morbus (~morbus@c-75-67-48-244.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
240. # [13:37] * Parts: Morbus (~morbus@c-75-67-48-244.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) ("http://www.disobey.com/")
241. # [13:46] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
242. # [13:48] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-dxprtsilclejohqa)
243. # [13:48] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@213.236.208.247) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
244. # [13:48] <asmodai> MikeSmith: Given the existence of http://jqueryui.com/themeroller/ I'd say styling is quite important to designers at least.
245. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> asmodai: I wasn't claiming datepicker styling isn't important to designers
246. # [13:52] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
247. # [13:52] <asmodai> MikeSmith: Ah ok, my bad, must have misunderstood.
248. # [13:52] <Philip`> zcorpan: Hello
249. # [13:53] <zcorpan> Philip`: hello
250. # [13:53] <Philip`> klevison: Browsers all have different levels of support for various features, and different sets of bugs, so none is unequivocally best, and you should test in as many as possible and focus on the ones that your users are most likely to use
251. # [13:53] * Quits: krijn (~krijnhoet@host90-152-67-85.ipv4.regusnet.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
252. # [13:54] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
253. # [13:54] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
254. # [13:54] <Philip`> zcorpan: I recently remembered that I forgot to do http://philip.html5.org/data/entities-in-attribute-with-no-semicolon-or-alphanumeric.txt
255. # [13:55] <Philip`> I changed your regexp a bit to exclude > from attribute 'values', because otherwise it seemed to pick up a lot of entities that were in content after an element with attributes
256. # [13:55] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
257. # [13:55] <klevison> Philip`: Is there a ranking of most use browsers?
258. # [13:55] <zcorpan> Philip`: sweet, thanks
259. # [13:56] <Philip`> zcorpan: Also I think the file is probably truncated, because it seemed to get stuck at some point (I guess a page hit a worst-complexity case in the pattern) so I killed it after it had stopped for a few minutes
260. # [13:56] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@z186083.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
261. # [13:57] <Philip`> klevison: There are lots of rankings, all slightly different
262. # [13:57] <Philip`> and it depends a lot on target audience, and country, etc
263. # [13:57] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok
264. # [13:57] <Philip`> but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers gives some indications
265. # [13:58] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Remote host closed the connection)
266. # [13:58] <Philip`> klevison: The theory is that HTML5 applications ought to work the same in all browsers, so for main development work you should pick whichever one gives you the best development tools (debuggers and network monitors and all that stuff)
267. # [13:59] <klevison> phil
268. # [13:59] <klevison> Philip`: ok
269. # [13:59] <klevison> thanks
270. # [14:04] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
271. # [14:05] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
272. # [14:06] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
273. # [14:07] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
274. # [14:08] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com)
275. # [14:11] * Philip` wonder what exciting IE9 features will be revealed today
276. # [14:11] <annevk> oh, IE9 is announced later today?
277. # [14:11] <Dashiva> 60% on acid3!
278. # [14:11] * annevk wonders if it will beat Opera Mini 5 in standards compliance
279. # [14:12] <asmodai> Dashiva: rofl
280. # [14:12] <jcranmer> SVG and canvas support?
281. # [14:13] <jgraham> ES5
282. # [14:13] <asmodai> Anyone else who does/did MathML? I wonder if an accented variable is done with an <msup> or just as an <mi><mo> pair without <msup>.
283. # [14:13] <jcranmer> the fastest JS engine?
284. # [14:14] <asmodai> integrated silverlight? :P
285. # [14:14] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.66)
286. # [14:14] <annevk> we have some (imo) crippled supported for MathML
287. # [14:14] <annevk> support*
288. # [14:14] <asmodai> annevk: Opera 5 mini?
289. # [14:14] <asmodai> err, opera mini 5
290. # [14:14] <Philip`> annevk: The existence of IE9 has already been announced, but it'll apparently be discussed in more detail at MIX later today
291. # [14:15] * Quits: Michelangelo (~Michelang@193.205.162.69) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
292. # [14:15] <annevk> asmodai, we released it earlier today
293. # [14:15] <jgraham> asmodai: <mover> I think
294. # [14:15] <annevk> Philip`, always so correct
295. # [14:15] <asmodai> annevk: Sorry, the mathml support I mean. You meant it's in opera mini 5?
296. # [14:16] <asmodai> jgraham: Let me try that
297. # [14:16] <annevk> asmodai, prolly, but also in the normal version of Opera
298. # [14:16] <asmodai> jgraham: No, not over.
299. # [14:16] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
300. # [14:16] <asmodai> jgraham: That's placing it directly over the variable.
301. # [14:16] * Joins: krijn (~krijnhoet@host90-152-67-85.ipv4.regusnet.com)
302. # [14:16] <asmodai> jgraham: what you do with, say, vectors
303. # [14:16] <Philip`> According to Twitter, "Word has it #IE9 will support #CSS3 and #HTML5"
304. # [14:17] <jgraham> Philip`: What about Web 3.0?
305. # [14:18] <Philip`> jgraham: I'd guess they'll only have about 80% support for Web 3.0
306. # [14:18] <jgraham> asmodai: Oh you mean like <mi>r`</mi> or so?
307. # [14:18] <Dashiva> Philip`: As in "someone made this statement up" or, "reliable sources tell us"
308. # [14:18] <asmodai> jgraham: if you have Mozilla 3.6 with html5 enabled: http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/3d.html
309. # [14:18] <asmodai> jgraham: See Kijiya's and rendering equation formulae
310. # [14:18] <Rik`> Philip`: do we know when they will talk about it ? today, tomorrow ?
311. # [14:19] <asmodai> First is using <msup> and the second is without.
312. # [14:19] <Philip`> Dashiva: Who knows - the origin is lost in an infinite chain of retweets, and Twitter doesn't encourage accurate attribution and evidence for all statements
313. # [14:20] <jgraham> asmodai: I think it should be without
314. # [14:20] <asmodai> jgraham: looks better huh?
315. # [14:20] <Philip`> Rik`: I think it's the keynote today (and some later sessions), which http://live.visitmix.com/Schedule says is 9am in Las Vegas
316. # [14:21] <asmodai> oh shoot, need to fix something in that bidirectional
317. # [14:21] <jgraham> Arguably it should be a combining mark of some sort so it is all one effective character or something
318. # [14:21] <asmodai> jgraham: I wonder who's authoratative on these kind of issues.
319. # [14:21] <jgraham> asmodai: Have you looked at the spec?
320. # [14:21] <asmodai> jgraham: From time to time. But it is not a good way to stay sane :)
321. # [14:22] * asmodai goes to check again
322. # [14:22] * zcorpan sees mathml entities in http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/3d.html
323. # [14:23] <zcorpan> was it hand-written or generated?
324. # [14:23] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
325. # [14:23] <zcorpan> s/generated/converted from something else/
326. # [14:23] * Quits: krijn (~krijnhoet@host90-152-67-85.ipv4.regusnet.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
327. # [14:23] <jgraham> asmodai: It looks nice btw
328. # [14:24] * Joins: krijn (~krijnhoet@host90-152-67-85.ipv4.regusnet.com)
329. # [14:24] <asmodai> jgraham: Thanks! I am not a designer though, but try to make it clear to read.
330. # [14:24] <asmodai> Sure as hell goes faster now that we have the firemath addon for firefox. Saves me a lot of time designing.
331. # [14:25] <asmodai> Designing the formulae that is.
332. # [14:27] <jgraham> Holy crap, the Stix fonts *still* haven't been released
333. # [14:27] <asmodai> jgraham: Should get a site update this week.
334. # [14:27] * asmodai stopped poking them whenever that date passed :)
335. # [14:27] <asmodai> jgraham: http://groups.google.com/group/netscape.public.mozilla.mathml/msg/110fb7f0d1d11c52
336. # [14:27] <asmodai> jgraham: Looks like it's raised by default when used as a postfix operator
337. # [14:27] <jgraham> Well yeah but after hearing they will be ready "real soon now" for the best part of a decade
338. # [14:28] * asmodai grins
339. # [14:28] <asmodai> Must say that standard Windows 7 with FF 3.6 does work decently for MathML
340. # [14:29] <Philip`> I like how the Stix web site's front page has a quote from 2002
341. # [14:31] <jgraham> I like the timeline best of all
342. # [14:32] <asmodai> http://www.w3.org/Math/testsuite/mml2-testsuite/Topics/Primes/primes1.xml <-- I am not sure I understand why they switch between &prime; and ' or not even using &Prime; instead of ''
343. # [14:32] <asmodai> But there they use msup
344. # [14:32] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
345. # [14:33] * Quits: aroben|away (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
346. # [14:34] <Philip`> Isn't a font generally a quite predictable thing to schedule?
347. # [14:35] <Philip`> You know you need to create n glyphs, and you work out how long that takes based on the zillions of pretty much identical font development projects that have been done before
348. # [14:36] <Philip`> It's not like they trying to land on the moon or collide hadrons or write a Duke Nukem game
349. # [14:36] * Quits: krijn (~krijnhoet@host90-152-67-85.ipv4.regusnet.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
350. # [14:36] * Joins: krijn_ (~krijnhoet@host90-152-67-85.ipv4.regusnet.com)
351. # [14:40] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
352. # [14:44] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat.se.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
353. # [14:44] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@pat.se.opera.com)
354. # [14:47] <asmodai> Philip`: Yeah, not sure how they managed to let that go on so long
355. # [14:47] <boblet> re: Stix, I’d worry about a group making a font when they use a screenshot of an italic font with Windows-level aliasing. does not bode well
356. # [14:51] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.121.113)
357. # [14:52] <Philip`> boblet: I was going to say they'd probably been using that screenshot since 2002
358. # [14:52] <Philip`> but actually it looks like it was added to the site in 2007
359. # [14:52] <boblet> Philip`: zing!
360. # [14:52] <boblet> given creating a typeface is almost 100% details, you’d think they’d be concerned about … well, details like that
361. # [14:53] <Philip`> Maybe the people who are working on the font have been too busy to update the site, so they got someone else to do it
362. # [14:55] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
363. # [14:55] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
364. # [14:59] * Joins: drry (~drry@unaffiliated/drry)
365. # [15:06] <asmodai> ah
366. # [15:06] <asmodai> jgraham: found something:
367. # [15:06] <asmodai> Not all "mathematical identifiers" are represented by mi elements — for example, subscripted or primed variables should be represented using msub or msup respectively.
368. # [15:07] <asmodai> Mmm, but that's a primed variable. *sigh*
369. # [15:11] * Joins: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol)
370. # [15:12] * Joins: BARTdG (~BARTdG@5ED43020.cable.ziggo.nl)
371. # [15:13] * Parts: BARTdG (~BARTdG@5ED43020.cable.ziggo.nl)
372. # [15:13] * Parts: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro ")
373. # [15:22] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
374. # [15:26] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-111-6.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
375. # [15:28] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-111-6.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
376. # [15:29] <boblet> another HTML5 Doctor article: http://html5doctor.com/small-hr-element/
377. # [15:29] <boblet> sorry Mike, nothing to top the mother of all O’s from last time
378. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> boblet: you need a pipe
379. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> in your photo
380. # [15:30] <boblet> lol
381. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> and/or a lab coat
382. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> all y'all htmldoctors should wear lab coats
383. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> or whatever the white coats that doctors wear are called
384. # [15:31] <boblet> yeah, that’s a good idea
385. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> or scrubs
386. # [15:31] <boblet> scrubs might be a bit hardcore
387. # [15:32] <boblet> but doctor/boffin lab coats are a plan
388. # [15:33] <workmad3> you can get lab coats pretty cheap on ebay :)
389. # [15:33] * workmad3 has an extra large one at home that cost about £5 or £10
390. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> or you can just photoshop your heads onto existing images of doctors in lab coats
391. # [15:34] <workmad3> that would be good :D especially if you did it deliberately badly ;)
392. # [15:34] <workmad3> or (as a final idea), get a lab coat, and then photoshop the head of a random scrubs castmember onto your own body?
393. # [15:35] <boblet> hehe. these suggestions are gold!
394. # [15:35] * boblet rolls his eyes when everyone looks the other way
395. # [15:35] <boblet> :P
396. # [15:35] <workmad3> I saw that :P
397. # [15:36] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-169-180-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
398. # [15:40] <boblet> curses! ;-)
399. # [15:45] <annevk> really, someone needs to rewrite CSS
400. # [15:45] <annevk> CSSOM would work so much better if there was an actual parsing specification that says to create CSSStyleRule objects and all and says to create CSSImportRule objects, that says for @import user agents have to "fetch" style sheets
401. # [15:46] <jgraham> annevk: Are you volunteering?
402. # [15:46] <annevk> and that when they are fetched they are to be parsed, and then CSSStyleSheet objects are to be created etc.
403. # [15:46] <annevk> I have it all in my head, I just don't care about writing it all down because it's so much frigging work
404. # [15:46] <annevk> just writing down the bits specific to CSSOM is already so much work
405. # [15:46] <annevk> it annoys me
406. # [15:48] <annevk> I would be happy to give directions if anyone is interested though
407. # [15:48] * Quits: krijn_ (~krijnhoet@host90-152-67-85.ipv4.regusnet.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
408. # [15:53] * Joins: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@82.113.106.113)
409. # [15:55] * Quits: klevison (~chatzilla@201-57-250-42.poolip.SDR.embratel.net.br) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910])
410. # [15:55] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.121.113) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
411. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: what you are describing is what I had thought the CSSOM spec was
412. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> before I actually read it
413. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I even told other people that's what CSSOM was
414. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I guess I should actually read specs before I tell other people what they are specs for
415. # [15:59] <zcorpan> that'd take away all the fun
416. # [16:00] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-70-165-196-83.lv.lv.cox.net) (Quit: shepazu)
417. # [16:00] <Philip`> MikeSmith: It only becomes a problem if those other people then read the spec, which is unlikely
418. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> heh
419. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> touché
420. # [16:01] <annevk> you thought CSSOM was a CSS parser spec?
421. # [16:02] <gsnedders> We all know CSSOM is the only spec that matters any more.
422. # [16:02] <annevk> I have thought of including a section that actually says how CSSOM integrates with the vague notion of CSS parser in the normal CSS specs
423. # [16:02] * Quits: jimrhoskins (~jhoskins@mail.improvingcare.com) (Quit: jimrhoskins)
424. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> annevk: for some crazy reason I thought CSSOM probably meant "CSS Object Model"
425. # [16:03] <annevk> which would say that once you parse an @import rule you create a CSSImportRule object, you fetch the indicated style sheet (unless you decide not to based on the media query provided), etc.
426. # [16:03] <annevk> MikeSmith, well it does
427. # [16:04] <annevk> MikeSmith, what I'm complaining about is that the link between object model, syntax, and processing, is missing
428. # [16:04] <annevk> or links
429. # [16:04] <Philip`> MikeSmith: You should think of it as analogous to HTML4 + DOM
430. # [16:04] <annevk> currently we have some notion of syntax which is various CSS specs patched together
431. # [16:04] <Philip`> which define documents, and a document object model, but don't bother with the chasm in the middle
432. # [16:05] * Quits: marcin___ (~marcin@ribisel.ofai.at) (Quit: marcin___)
433. # [16:05] <annevk> some vague notion of processing (not at all the detail of e.g. HTML5 fetch)
434. # [16:05] <annevk> and a not so good object model that I'm trying to improve, but I keep running into processing model and syntax to object model mapping issues
435. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> yeah, the chasm is the part I had kind of assumed was provided instead as a mountain of information the spec
436. # [16:07] <annevk> I sort of have the feeling that only a few people care about the level of detail
437. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> this seems similar in lackingness to the HTML4 spec
438. # [16:07] * Philip` 's grammar parser has difficulties towards the end of MikeSmith's statement
439. # [16:07] <annevk> but they are the people that matter if we want this to work in the same way...
440. # [16:07] <zcorpan> or XML/DOM
441. # [16:07] * Joins: krijn (~krijnhoet@host90-152-76-118.ipv4.regusnet.com)
442. # [16:08] <Dashiva> Argh
443. # [16:08] <asmodai> boblet: Any St Patrick's Day parades in Osaka? :)
444. # [16:08] <Dashiva> Now it's <RSS> instead of <Rich>, I need a new parser
445. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: if the only few people who are a implementors, then that would seem to make it still pretty important
446. # [16:08] <jgraham> Dashiva: There are plenty of <RSS> parsers on the net
447. # [16:08] <jgraham> Try one of them ;)
448. # [16:09] <boblet> asmodai: nope, although I’m sure any Irish etc pub will be using it for sales
449. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> but if implementors don't care, then I guess it doesn't matter so much who does
450. # [16:09] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-169-180-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
451. # [16:09] <asmodai> boblet: heh, I'm sure they would
452. # [16:09] * asmodai misses the kansai region
453. # [16:09] <annevk> MikeSmith, yeah, they're also the people that don't really have much time to give feedback on-the-go
454. # [16:09] <annevk> meh
455. # [16:09] <boblet> you used to be here?
456. # [16:09] <Philip`> At some point there would be few enough people who care about a detail that it takes less effort to get them to converge via bug reports than by writing a spec
457. # [16:09] <boblet> cool!
458. # [16:10] <asmodai> boblet: 3 or 4 times by now
459. # [16:10] <annevk> I'm slowly making progress though; a lot more than two years ago
460. # [16:10] <asmodai> If all goes according to plan, back in May or so
461. # [16:10] <boblet> what for?
462. # [16:10] <annevk> Philip`, yeah, except without a spec it's bad for newcomers
463. # [16:10] <asmodai> boblet: Making my own okonomiyakis is ok, but still nice to taste the real thing there.
464. # [16:11] <asmodai> boblet: visiting friends and such. My ex-gf is a Japanese living up in tochigi-ken, near utsunomiya
465. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I had meant in that sentence to refer to the chasmatic-lackingness-of-necessary-details quality perhaps being similar to the corresponding lackingness in the HTML4 spec
466. # [16:11] * Quits: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
467. # [16:11] <boblet> へー so you’ve lived here rather than visited huh?
468. # [16:12] <asmodai> Visited. never lived.
469. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> Philip`: relative to the contrasting cornucopia of such detail in the HTML5
470. # [16:12] <boblet> ping Mike or me when you have dates, as there’s a local HTML5 event in May I could take you to :)
471. # [16:12] <asmodai> boblet: Although I guess I saw more of Japanese normal life than most people do when they visit Japan.
472. # [16:13] * Joins: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
473. # [16:13] <asmodai> boblet: I'll keep it in mind :)
474. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> Philip`: or the my-cup-floweth-over level of detail in the HTML5 spec
475. # [16:13] <boblet> having a Japanese gf does tend to give you a different perspective than a tourist
476. # [16:14] <asmodai> boblet: She and her mother were also quite keen on teaching me the reasoning, as far as they knew, behind certain elements of Japanese culture and all that.
477. # [16:14] <boblet> ping me on Twitter @boblet if I’m not here
478. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> asmodai: I live in Tokyo but prefer to socialize exclusively with people from Kansai or Kyushu
479. # [16:14] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I meant the statement before that one
480. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> or anywhere except Tokyo or Kanagawa-ken
481. # [16:14] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Do you have a fetish for people from places starting with K?
482. # [16:14] <boblet> MikeSmith: heh
483. # [16:15] <asmodai> Of course, I was also brought to the Kumon class of her mother's to help the children with their English pronunciation. And being 1,94m tall is always fun. eeeeeeeeeeeee ooki gaijin da na!
484. # [16:15] <boblet> that’s pretty huge
485. # [16:15] <asmodai> MikeSmith: I love kansaiben and the region, maybe it's because I am Dutch or something.
486. # [16:15] <asmodai> boblet: Good thing my ex is something like 1,75m ;)
487. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yes, but even more so for people from places that have K in the name but instead the K is pronounced like "sh" or something for some bizarre reason
488. # [16:16] <jgraham> MikeSmith: That explains so much
489. # [16:16] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
490. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> asmodai, boblet - I'm joking about that, anyway
491. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> There are actually some nice people who are native Tokyoites
492. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> or so I have heard, at least
493. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> I trust that it's true
494. # [16:17] <boblet> MikeSmith: no, that sounds a pretty accurate description of your ‘liking ppl’ habits to me :P
495. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> anyway, speaking of sento, it's time for me to go to the sento before it closes
496. # [16:22] <asmodai> I always find people in Tokyo to be a bit nervous.
497. # [16:22] <wirepair> hu? it's 12:20... heh
498. # [16:22] <asmodai> Stressy maybe is more the term.
499. # [16:22] <wirepair> shouldn't it be closed by now?
500. # [16:22] <asmodai> wirepair: I guess not in Tokyo ;)
501. # [16:22] * wirepair is in tokyo
502. # [16:22] <wirepair> ;>
503. # [16:23] <wirepair> didn't realize they stayed open that late ;>
504. # [16:23] <boblet> wirepair: Mike’s sento is extra-late
505. # [16:23] <wirepair> guess so
506. # [16:23] <boblet> normally last in 11 close and midnight, but that one is like open til 1am or something
507. # [16:24] <boblet> maybe 1:30 or 2 if Mike’s going now
508. # [16:24] <gsnedders> MikeSmith just lives weird hours.
509. # [16:24] <wirepair> hehe
510. # [16:24] <boblet> sry meant to type ‘last in at 11, close at midnight’
511. # [16:24] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's not just his hours that are weird
512. # [16:25] * asmodai chuckles
513. # [16:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: Have you even laid your eyes upon the weirdness of MikeSmith?
514. # [16:25] <gsnedders> I went running last time I saw him.
515. # [16:25] <boblet> lol
516. # [16:25] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-111-6.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
517. # [16:26] <boblet> gsnedders: the ’stache?
518. # [16:26] <gsnedders> boblet: He didn't have that when I saw him
519. # [16:27] <boblet> gsnedders: well if you thought he was funny-lookin’ then…
520. # [16:27] <gsnedders> :D
521. # [16:28] <boblet> Philip`: how come you don’t have Deja Vu Sans Mono on your Web Font Optimizer?
522. # [16:29] * Joins: _Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.83.34)
523. # [16:29] <Philip`> boblet: I guess I never (thought|bothered) to add it
524. # [16:30] <boblet> Philip`: come to think of it, how come you aren’t listing them alphabetically *seeing as I like coded that for you and everything*??
525. # [16:30] <boblet> [angry] smiley here
526. # [16:30] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.90.75) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
527. # [16:30] <Philip`> Because I haven't updated that site at all since before your feedback
528. # [16:30] <boblet> or maybe the sideways glance one would be appropriate
529. # [16:30] <boblet> raspberries to you
530. # [16:30] * Philip` should probably get back to it some time
531. # [16:31] <Philip`> but I'm hoping if I wait long enough then it'll be obsolete and I won't have to
532. # [16:31] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-188-79.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
533. # [16:31] <boblet> i think i tried installing locally but it needed a hack to some library and i gave up
534. # [16:31] <boblet> wonder what @mpilgrim is using…
535. # [16:31] <Philip`> It ought to work with a modern default Perl installation with no fiddling, I believe
536. # [16:31] <boblet> might give it another go
537. # [16:32] <Philip`> The only slightly unusual module is something like Digest::SHA which I think is now standard in Perl 5.10
538. # [16:32] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-3.lv.lv.cox.net)
539. # [16:33] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
540. # [16:33] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
541. # [16:34] * Quits: _Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.83.34) (Remote host closed the connection)
542. # [16:34] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.83.34)
543. # [16:44] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-iqejfuyrcwtdgzrb)
544. # [16:45] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
545. # [16:48] <erlehmann_> boblet, of course, he is using python ;)
546. # [16:48] * Quits: wycats (~wycats@c-69-181-216-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: wycats)
547. # [16:49] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-3.lv.lv.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
548. # [16:49] <boblet> Python? aaw man no wonder. that’s soo 3 years ago. He should be using something newer like Go :P
549. # [16:50] <Philip`> boblet: Did you mean font subsetting? I believe he was using my tool for that
550. # [16:50] <Philip`> (The offline version)
551. # [16:50] <boblet> Philip`: yep, and that’s what I guessed tttt
552. # [16:50] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
553. # [16:50] <boblet> hold on, do ppl say tttt for to tell the truth?
554. # [16:51] <boblet> i think i just made that one up
555. # [16:51] <boblet> woops
556. # [16:52] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
557. # [16:53] <Philip`> I assumed it was some kind of crazy smiley
558. # [16:53] <boblet> yep, that sounds like me, crazy smiley man
559. # [16:53] <boblet> :|
560. # [16:56] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
561. # [16:58] <Philip`> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/
562. # [16:59] * erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmnn
563. # [16:59] * erlehmnn is now known as erlehmann
564. # [16:59] <Philip`> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/info/ReleaseNotes/Default.html
565. # [16:59] <Philip`> "XHTML Documents"
566. # [17:00] <Philip`> "SVG"
567. # [17:00] <Philip`> "DOM L2 Events"
568. # [17:01] <Philip`> "The demo of HTML5 <video> at MIX10 was a preview of a future release of the Platform Preview. Stay tuned for more!"
569. # [17:02] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net)
570. # [17:02] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving...)
571. # [17:02] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
572. # [17:03] <zcorpan> crap, need vista or 7
573. # [17:06] <Philip`> http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=5572 - "Microsoft’s new JavaScript engine is built to take advantage of two cores, with the second core compiling JavaScript down to native machine code to help speed up the browser."
574. # [17:08] <AryehGregor> So now everyone's using JIT. Awesome.
575. # [17:09] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
576. # [17:09] <Philip`> The preview build license doesn't allow you to publish benchmark results
577. # [17:10] <gsnedders> Same was true of IE8, no?
578. # [17:10] <annevk> yeah, that's going to go down well
579. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> So download it, agree to the license, and get someone else to publish benchmark results who didn't agree to the license.
580. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> Easy.
581. # [17:10] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.83.34) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
582. # [17:11] <Philip`> That would presumably count as publishing results to the someone else
583. # [17:11] <AryehGregor> Why? You're not running the benchmark.
584. # [17:11] <jgraham> Not if they run the benchmarks
585. # [17:11] <AryehGregor> It doesn't say you can't let anyone use the browser who didn't agree to the license, right?
586. # [17:11] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk)
587. # [17:11] <Philip`> Feel free to argue that with Microsoft's lawyers :-p
588. # [17:11] <Philip`> or alternatively disregard the license entirely
589. # [17:12] * Quits: Mau`werk (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
590. # [17:12] <jgraham> My uninformed guess is that they are more interested in discouraging people by threat then in having anything enforcable
591. # [17:12] <jgraham> *than
592. # [17:12] <AryehGregor> It's so rare that I'm actually excited about a Microsoft product release.
593. # [17:13] <zcorpan> is there a vista vm for xp?
594. # [17:13] <erlehmann> Philip`, what video format are they using ?
595. # [17:13] <AryehGregor> jgraham, my guess is that the provisions are thrown in just in case they'd be handy, not because they even intend to discourage people.
596. # [17:13] <erlehmann> zcorpan, drop XP, it's older than my little sister ;)
597. # [17:13] <AryehGregor> So in the event they do have a lawsuit over something or other, it's one extra claim they can try to get to stick.
598. # [17:13] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
599. # [17:14] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, TeX is older than my big brother, but it's still awesome.
600. # [17:14] * Philip` contributes to Hixie's server load
601. # [17:14] <Philip`> (55/100)
602. # [17:14] <erlehmann> :D
603. # [17:15] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.90.214)
604. # [17:16] <Philip`> "GPU-Powered HTML5"
605. # [17:17] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, also, there's no <video> support in this version, but they've said there will be in a future version.
606. # [17:17] <AryehGregor> I assume they'll just use Windows' built-in media stuff, the way Apple uses QuickTime, and they'll support all system codecs.
607. # [17:17] <Dashiva> Oh ho
608. # [17:18] <AryehGregor> Which would mean H.264 will be supported by default, but not Theora, unless they add Theora support.
609. # [17:18] <AryehGregor> AFAICT.
610. # [17:18] <AryehGregor> But who knows, we'll have to see.
611. # [17:18] <Dashiva> If IE9 supports XHTML, maybe we can bypass the whole polyglot documents mess
612. # [17:18] <zcorpan> "The SVG in HTML5 embedding method without using foreign object (i.e. just create an <svg> tag in your HTML file)"
613. # [17:19] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat.se.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
614. # [17:20] <svl_> "We did see one cool HTML5 feature we weren't expecting: IE9 working using YouTube's implementation of the HTML5 video element." <- means h.264 :( http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/03/platform-preview-gives-web-developers-first-taste-of-ie9.ars
615. # [17:21] <AryehGregor> I think it was obvious that IE9 would support H.264. MS is part of MPEG-LA. The question is whether it would support Theora too.
616. # [17:21] <AryehGregor> I'd guess not, but you never know what MS will do.
617. # [17:22] <gsnedders> They already support Vorbis is some things
618. # [17:22] * Quits: svl_ (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
619. # [17:23] <AryehGregor> Why is the first picture in the "HTML5" section an Acid3 screenshot, when Acid3 doesn't test any specs that have anything to do with HTML5?
620. # [17:23] <gsnedders> It does, it has the same author
621. # [17:24] <AryehGregor> Also, one thing that Acid3 tests is support for downloadable TTFs, which IE has said they'll never support, so they'll never get 100 anyway.
622. # [17:24] <zcorpan> the links to specs go to dev.w3.org
623. # [17:24] <boblet> so does "We love HTML5 so much that we want to do it right" mean “2022 suckaz!”?
624. # [17:25] <zcorpan> i hope they will send spec feedback; implementing a spec usually involves finding bugs in the spec, but i haven't seen much feedback from ms
625. # [17:25] <AryehGregor> They sent some useful feedback.
626. # [17:25] <gsnedders> But that'd give away they were implementing it
627. # [17:25] <gsnedders> And management wouldn't like that
628. # [17:26] <gsnedders> (oh yay for MS)
629. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> The IE9 preview actually edges out Fx3.7a2 on SunSpider. Awesome.
630. # [17:27] <AryehGregor> We are finally arriving at an era where the most recent version of every browser is non-crippled.
631. # [17:27] <boblet> AryehGregor: and somewhat embarassing for Moz :)
632. # [17:27] <workmad3> AryehGregor: now we just need to enter the era where all users have the most recent version of a browser
633. # [17:28] <AryehGregor> boblet, they're already doing a major rework of their JS engine, Jager-whatever it is.
634. # [17:28] <Philip`> JaegerMonkey
635. # [17:28] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: unless you get bitten by http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ie8-mode.png (which will get even more complicated in ie9)
636. # [17:28] <jgraham> Jägermonkey
637. # [17:28] <Philip`> The preview build says it has IE5, IE7, IE8 and IE9 rendering modes
638. # [17:29] <boblet> ya gotta admit, there would have been some happy engineers at Redmond when they finally got a better SunSpider score than a modern browser
639. # [17:29] <zcorpan> wonder if ie10 will replace the ie9 mode or add another
640. # [17:29] <workmad3> http://www.taranfx.com/firefox-hardware-acceleration
641. # [17:29] <AryehGregor> The discrepancy might be because Firefox is falling back to an interpreter in some places. If the blog posts about Jägermonkey are right, it will beat everyone when that's done.
642. # [17:30] <AryehGregor> Of course, one possible result here is that IE will beat the pants off everyone else by IE10 because Microsoft is pouring billions into it, and then we'll see an IE6-like stagnation. But that seems a lot less likely now, since Google and Apple have a heck of a lot more money than Netscape ever did.
643. # [17:30] <workmad3> I expect JS performance is going to be a leapfrog race for a year or two until all browsers have superb JS performance :)
644. # [17:30] <AryehGregor> So, I'm extremely optimistic.
645. # [17:30] <AryehGregor> Yay!
646. # [17:30] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
647. # [17:30] <workmad3> hell, it's already started
648. # [17:31] <gsnedders> So their JS engine is called "Chakra"
649. # [17:32] <workmad3> so it seems :)
650. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> Yeah, just chart performance over the last couple of years. Two years ago, no one was even using JITs, right?
651. # [17:32] <workmad3> AryehGregor: don't think so... I think that started with chrome 1 or 2 or something
652. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> Chrome was released less than two years ago, no?
653. # [17:32] <workmad3> good point :)
654. # [17:32] <jgraham> AryehGregor: (without having any particular clue what I'm talking about) I would be pretty surprised if there was another factor of 10 improvement in js peformance
655. # [17:33] <AryehGregor> September 2008.
656. # [17:33] <workmad3> for some reason I thought it was back in my uni days, but it wasn't :)
657. # [17:34] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I imagine that JS in the fastest browsers right now is less than ten times slower than C, so I'd agree.
658. # [17:34] <workmad3> who knows... maybe comps will start using 'javascript cards' that essentially run JS on chip? :)
659. # [17:35] <workmad3> but yeah... I doubt a 10-fold improvement over a year or 2 is likely
660. # [17:36] <gsnedders> I expect significant improvements, still
661. # [17:36] <AryehGregor> Yes, I agree.
662. # [17:36] <gsnedders> But I think nothing so radical, and nothing so sudden now
663. # [17:36] <workmad3> yeah
664. # [17:36] * Quits: krijn (~krijnhoet@host90-152-76-118.ipv4.regusnet.com) (Quit: krijn)
665. # [17:36] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@83-244-151-229.cust-83.exponential-e.net)
666. # [17:37] <workmad3> the only reason such a large improvement was really possible is because JS was pretty much ignored and there was a lot of interpreted language improvements that could be applied very quickly to the interpreters
667. # [17:37] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-fkodzehelvtoogfu) (Quit: dave_levin)
668. # [17:37] <workmad3> such as the JIT compilation :)
669. # [17:37] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-jrpcxssdgptqinps)
670. # [17:37] <boblet> shepazu: so did you have your Mix10 preso already? :)
671. # [17:38] <workmad3> it was almost along the lines of jumping straight from a java JVM from '95 to one from '05 in only a year :)
672. # [17:39] <JonathanNeal> they'll support video that's nice of them.l
673. # [17:39] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Leaving)
674. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> If they support Theora, there's still a chance of it winning the format war. If not . . . oh well.
675. # [17:42] <jgraham> I would speculate that the best-case realistic possibility is that they support whatever codecs you have installed
676. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> Yes, but they also control what codecs are installed by default.
677. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> Same as Apple.
678. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> So they could choose to add Theora support by default to the OS, or not.
679. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> Up to them.
680. # [17:43] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
681. # [17:43] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/03/16/html5-hardware-accelerated-first-ie9-platform-preview-available-for-developers.aspx
682. # [17:44] <gsnedders> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/benchmarks/Acid3/Default.html
683. # [17:44] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
684. # [17:45] <Philip`> "we’re looking for developer feedback on our implementation of HTML5’s parsing rules, Selection APIs, XHTML support, and inline SVG"
685. # [17:45] <Philip`> Parsing rules?
686. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Hmmm...
687. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> Philip`, so that question means "I'm going to go write up a bunch of test cases to see if IE9 actually implements HTML5 parsing", right?
688. # [17:47] <gsnedders> What about the html5lib runner?
689. # [17:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: You read my mind
690. # [17:47] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/runner.html is the most up to date version
691. # [17:47] <gsnedders> So if anyone has Vista/Win7 at hand :P
692. # [17:47] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@17.246.18.241)
693. # [17:48] * ap_ is now known as ap
694. # [17:48] * Joins: krijn (~krijnhoet@95.98.121.50)
695. # [17:50] <boblet> oyasumi
696. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> I have one, but it's like two rooms away, so I'm too lazy to test it presently.
697. # [17:51] * Quits: krijn (~krijnhoet@95.98.121.50) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
698. # [17:53] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@83-244-151-229.cust-83.exponential-e.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
699. # [17:53] * Joins: krijn (~krijnhoet@95.98.121.50)
700. # [17:53] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@83-244-151-229.cust-83.exponential-e.net)
701. # [17:53] * Parts: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
702. # [17:54] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@c-f807e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
703. # [17:54] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://philip.html5.org/misc/html5lib-runner-ie9.txt
704. # [17:55] * gsnedders wonders how up to date that copy is
705. # [17:56] * jgraham wonders what's with the </B> elements
706. # [17:57] <Philip`> It seems to *fewer* of those tests when it's in IE8 mode
707. # [17:57] <Philip`> but only a few fewer
708. # [17:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: Try running it again, I've just updated it
709. # [17:59] <gsnedders> (Sorry)
710. # [17:59] <zcorpan> jgraham: presumably unexpected end tags still create "/B" elements
711. # [17:59] <zcorpan> so not a full html5 parser
712. # [18:01] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net) (Quit: shepazu)
713. # [18:02] <zcorpan> Test 1 of 24 in data/tests10.dat
714. # [18:02] <zcorpan> | <svg svg>
715. # [18:02] <zcorpan> and mathml
716. # [18:02] <zcorpan> no wait
717. # [18:02] <zcorpan> they don't parse mathml
718. # [18:03] <annevk> they support SVG in text/html per HTML5 rules?
719. # [18:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://philip.html5.org/misc/html5lib-runner-ie9.txt
720. # [18:03] <Philip`> (Updated)
721. # [18:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: Thanks
722. # [18:03] <gsnedders> annevk: yes
723. # [18:04] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
724. # [18:04] <Philip`> http://twitter.com/IE/status/10577927335 - "we're going to support the H.264 video codec, it's the de facto standard for video across the broadcasting industry"
725. # [18:04] <annevk> 10 years from now we'll finally find out whether the IE-was-the-problem advocates of XHTML were right
726. # [18:04] <annevk> I can't wait
727. # [18:05] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@83-244-151-229.cust-83.exponential-e.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
728. # [18:05] <erlehmann> Philip`, all is lost
729. # [18:05] <annevk> Philip`, it's also evil
730. # [18:05] <zcorpan> Test 17 of 24 in data/tests10.dat - they don't break out of foreign lands :-/
731. # [18:05] <erlehmann> maybe the EU should do a default codec ballot screen :P
732. # [18:09] <Philip`> Going by the Zombie DOM Viewer, <foo><bar/><baz> is parsed with XMLish nesting
733. # [18:09] <AryehGregor> Can someone tweet @IE asking if they'll support Theora in addition to H.264, or if they're committed to not supporting Theora?
734. # [18:09] <Philip`> i.e. unknown tags are no longer empty elements
735. # [18:09] <Philip`> and trailing slashes make them closed
736. # [18:09] <annevk> o_O
737. # [18:09] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, as if they would.
738. # [18:09] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, we could ask.
739. # [18:11] <Philip`> Unmatched closing tags of known elements ("</a>" etc) turn into empty elements named "/A" etc in the DOM
740. # [18:11] <zcorpan> Test 21 of 24 in data/tests10.dat - they don't parse xlink:href into a namespaced attribute :-/
741. # [18:11] <Philip`> (</div> and </p> turn into <div> and <p>, though)
742. # [18:11] <Philip`> (and </unknown> is dropped)
743. # [18:12] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, do it, then. i'm not on twitter.
744. # [18:12] <AryehGregor> I'm not either.
745. # [18:12] <AryehGregor> Someone here must be.
746. # [18:12] <JonathanNeal> http://twitter.com/jon_neal
747. # [18:12] <JonathanNeal> there you go AryehGregor.
748. # [18:13] <AryehGregor> I wouldn't have phrased it that way, but okay.
749. # [18:13] <JonathanNeal> What's wrong with the way I phrased it? I can always tweet again.
750. # [18:13] <annevk> then get your own twitter account AryehGregor
751. # [18:13] <annevk> :)
752. # [18:13] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
753. # [18:13] <JonathanNeal> I don't take twitter seriously enough to worry how I look.
754. # [18:14] <AryehGregor> It sounds more confrontational than I'd have said it.
755. # [18:14] <Philip`> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/svg-and-mathml-in-html.html displays the nice tiger
756. # [18:14] <zcorpan> if they are changing the parser in radical ways, one wonders why they don't just implement it per spec in one go
757. # [18:14] <AryehGregor> I'd have said something like "Might IE9 support Theora in addition to H.264, or is that out of the question?"
758. # [18:15] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
759. # [18:15] * Quits: Phae (~phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
760. # [18:15] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
761. # [18:15] * Joins: sbublava (~stephan@77.116.234.204.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
762. # [18:16] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, I would assume that professional PR team behind that twitter account will pack their „no theora 4 u“ message into a nice, fluffy package regardless.
763. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> What a nicely cynical prediction.
764. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> They might just ignore it, though.
765. # [18:17] * Quits: krijn (~krijnhoet@95.98.121.50) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
766. # [18:18] * Joins: drunknbass_work (~aaron@pool-71-105-80-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
767. # [18:20] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-pjdgxevlwlupadif)
768. # [18:21] * Quits: pesla (~retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com ))
769. # [18:22] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
770. # [18:25] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann is right, which is why I really didn't care :)
771. # [18:25] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
772. # [18:25] <JonathanNeal> They don't care about me, I don't care about them, it's just a call for information
773. # [18:27] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
774. # [18:27] <annevk> http://www.zeldman.com/2010/03/16/ie9-preview/ is arguing for convergence on WebKit
775. # [18:28] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
776. # [18:28] <annevk> I don't see why Zeldman does not realize that one rendering engine would be quite bad as well...
777. # [18:29] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
778. # [18:29] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@cpe-66-25-140-251.austin.res.rr.com)
779. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> It's always nice to have competition.
780. # [18:30] <JonathanNeal> hey paul_irish!
781. # [18:30] <jgraham> Fortunately there is no realistic possibility of Microsoft switching to WebKit
782. # [18:30] <erlehmann> actually, as a non-corporate person, i wonder why.
783. # [18:31] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net)
784. # [18:31] <erlehmann> shouldn't „instant better browser“ be a management metric ?
785. # [18:31] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: inbound)
786. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> Not if it means you can never beat some of your key competitors in certain areas, because they get all your improvements.
787. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> WebKit is largely LGPL.
788. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> Using code from Chrome, now, that might make sense, but it would look bad for Microsoft.
789. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> Probably they figure the extra time and money is worth the benefits to MS's image. It's already widely viewed as a company that just steals good ideas from others.
790. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> Without having to actually take *code* from others.
791. # [18:33] <Philip`> Microsoft would have its own ideas about how the browser architecture should be developed in order to provide the best experience for their users (e.g. scrap all the cross-platform layers and make it heavily optimised for Direct2D etc), which are likely to conflict with the goals of Apple's WebKit developers
792. # [18:33] <Philip`> so they'd have to fork it instead of contributing upstream
793. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> That's true too. They're integrating heavily with Windows-specific stuff.
794. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> I think it probably makes sense for them to work on their own.
795. # [18:34] * Joins: shepazutoo (~schepers@wsip-98-173-111-7.lv.lv.cox.net)
796. # [18:34] <Philip`> which would mean they lose the benefits of sharing future development effort from other people, and they have to fix all bugs themselves in a codebase which they have no experience with
797. # [18:35] * Joins: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
798. # [18:37] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
799. # [18:41] * Joins: BARTdG (~BARTdG@5ED43020.cable.ziggo.nl)
800. # [18:43] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
801. # [18:46] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com)
802. # [18:51] * Joins: wycats (~wycats@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net)
803. # [19:00] <roc_> "scrap all cross-platform layers" doesn't really buy you that much
804. # [19:00] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
805. # [19:01] <AryehGregor> Surely it does if you can ask the Windows team to add any new APIs you'd like.
806. # [19:01] * Joins: cying_ (~cying@70.90.171.153)
807. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> (not that I'd know, I don't ever do platform-specific code)
808. # [19:02] <asmodai> mm
809. # [19:03] <Philip`> Asking the Windows team to add APIs doesn't seem a great strategy, because (a) they'll probably say no, and (b) you'll have to wait five years for it to be released and adopted before you can start relying on it
810. # [19:03] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
811. # [19:03] <asmodai> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/
812. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I'm talking about the IE team asking the Windows team to add APIs.
813. # [19:04] <Philip`> AryehGregor: So am I
814. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> And backport to Vista if necessary.
815. # [19:04] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-pjdgxevlwlupadif) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
816. # [19:04] <jgraham> Philip`: Well IE9 needs things relased since IE8
817. # [19:04] <jgraham> *released
818. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Why do you think either (a) or (b) is the case? Since MS views IE as part of its core platform, you'd think it would tell the Windows and IE teams to cooperate.
819. # [19:05] <erlehmann> seems they politely ignored the theora question.
820. # [19:05] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
821. # [19:05] * cying_ is now known as cying
822. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Also, hasn't MS historically used undocumented APIs in some of their programs?
823. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> That's the same sort of idea.
824. # [19:05] <jgraham> s/things/windows versions/
825. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure the various MS teams coordinate with each other to a considerable degree. Various things Raymond Chen has said tell me that the compiler team does things at request of the Windows team, for example.
826. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> Or at least in coordination with them.
827. # [19:07] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-pthhgbaitqrtewwk)
828. # [19:08] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@c-f807e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
829. # [19:08] <asmodai> Wasn't Opera Mini 5 released out of beta?
830. # [19:08] <gsnedders> Yes
831. # [19:08] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@c-f807e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
832. # [19:08] <gsnedders> Today
833. # [19:09] <asmodai> Mmm, guess the android market place is not updated yet.
834. # [19:09] <gsnedders> Sometime this morning before I got to the office :P
835. # [19:09] <asmodai> Heh
836. # [19:10] <asmodai> If I install the beta from the market place, will it get the release?
837. # [19:10] * gsnedders claims no knowledge of Mini
838. # [19:10] <asmodai> Heh
839. # [19:10] <gsnedders> Provided the rendering engine works…
840. # [19:10] <asmodai> I assume they'll replace the beta with the release version on the market place. Lets just install it
841. # [19:11] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
842. # [19:12] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-pthhgbaitqrtewwk) (Quit: Reconnecting…)
843. # [19:13] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-36-187.dynamic.qsc.de)
844. # [19:13] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@c-f807e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
845. # [19:13] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@c-f807e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
846. # [19:15] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I don't know how closely teams cooperate, but it seems there's a fair amount of independence
847. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> That kind of statement is hard to disagree with.
848. # [19:15] <Philip`> e.g. "The OS team decides what OS features to update in patches. The hardware team decides what hardware to release. The two teams do not necessarily have the same priorities, especially since the OS team views the hardware team as "just another hardware vendor."" (http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/08/06/8835316.aspx)
849. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Hardware probably isn't as important to MS as IE is.
850. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> hats off to the IE product-dev team
851. # [19:16] <Philip`> and I'd expect that to some extent the IE team is seem as just another software vendor (though a very important one, but not necessarily more important than all third-party vendors)
852. # [19:16] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-srlepefnftjbtwto)
853. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> this is real progress and always good to leave the audience wanting more
854. # [19:17] <annevk> given that Trident is used by other Microsoft software and Windows itself wouldn't it be more important?
855. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> MS views IE as a key part of Windows, so I'd say it's probably viewed as a lot more important than most vendors.
856. # [19:17] <Philip`> The IE-favouritism and undocumented API things got Microsoft into a little bit of legal bother, so I'm not sure they want to do much more of that
857. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> They can still release documented APIs. Probably no one will sue them too much for that.
858. # [19:18] <roc_> it's not good to leave the audience wanting <canvas>, though :-)
859. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: as far as the webkit-convergence think, I would think that most people would be smart enough to never take advice from a guy with a mustache, or a hat, or worse yet a mustache and a hat.. because that guy is clearly trying to hide something
860. # [19:19] * AryehGregor has both a mustache and a hat.
861. # [19:19] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
862. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Although I have a beard too, so I don't know if it counts.
863. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> beard is a sign of wisdom
864. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> prophets must have beards
865. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> nobody takes them seriously otherwise
866. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> but how many prophets can you think of who just had a mustache?
867. # [19:20] <annevk> IE9 does not have <canvas>?
868. # [19:20] <annevk> weird
869. # [19:20] <Philip`> No(t yet)
870. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Why is it weird?
871. # [19:21] <jgraham> What's the point of a fast js engine if you can't play js games?
872. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Most of the stuff they're adding seems like it's higher-priority than <canvas>.
873. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Performance, <video>, SVG.
874. # [19:21] <Philip`> They'll apparently update the platform preview every 8 weeks or so
875. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Heh.
876. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Point.
877. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> hopefully it's just the first beta and canvas will be added shortly
878. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> It's not a beta, it's pre-beta.
879. # [19:21] <Philip`> and maybe they'll add new features then, when they're more confident they'll definitely be able to ship them
880. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> But that would be awesome, yes.
881. # [19:22] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-srlepefnftjbtwto) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
882. # [19:22] <Philip`> jgraham: It might be useful for, like, useful things instead
883. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: is your beard a serious manly beard, or more like a billy-goat beard?
884. # [19:22] <Philip`> like email and office applications
885. # [19:23] * AryehGregor wonders why the heck he gets pictures of naked women when Googling "beard"
886. # [19:23] <Philip`> Personalised search?
887. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> . . .
888. # [19:23] <othermaciej> I would have thought <canvas> is higher priority than SVG given author demand
889. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> My beard is kind of like this, just a half-inch trim overall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JoeyHerrington.png
890. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> Except darker-colored.
891. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> SVG is older than <canvas>, I guess, and better known, and part of Acid3 . . . dunno.
892. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> Personally, I skimmed the canvas section of the spec, because I don't understand all this crazy graphics stuff.
893. # [19:25] * Joins: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-25-82.dynamic.qsc.de)
894. # [19:25] <jgraham> Philip`: Typically email and office applications aren't really limited by raw execution performance afaict
895. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> that beard is too tame.. beards should be wild and unruly and awe-inducing
896. # [19:25] <jgraham> (obviously some applications could be but the obvious examples would also want <canvas>)
897. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> C'mon, benchmarks are the only reason to improve JS performance. Doesn't everyone know that?
898. # [19:26] <Philip`> jgraham: I assume they occasionally are limited by JS performance, for a short period of time that is long enough to cause visible latency, which is a good enough reason to optimise JS execution
899. # [19:27] <Philip`> (even if most of the time they're idle or network-limited)
900. # [19:27] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-36-187.dynamic.qsc.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
901. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> here's a dude with substantial beard:
902. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> http://offthemeatrack.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/mel4.jpg
903. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> he looks a bit sad and confused, though
904. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> I guess sometimes prophets gets sad and confused too
905. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> anyway, we do need canvas
906. # [19:30] <jgraham> Philip`: There was a microsoft research paper suggesting that they were more likely to be limited by DOM + Events
907. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> hopefully some soonly upcoming non-pre beta will add that
908. # [19:30] <jgraham> Although I didn't think the paper was that great
909. # [19:31] <jgraham> (I mean it was fine, but the conclusions were not that surprising)
910. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> Someone can try tweeting them to ask if they're planning on <canvas>.
911. # [19:31] <gsnedders> You'll get no answer
912. # [19:31] <gsnedders> It's futile
913. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> Also, if more people harass them on if they'll support Theora in addition to H.264, maybe they'll answer that.
914. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, they answered a video codec question.
915. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> You never know.
916. # [19:32] <Philip`> That question was already answered in published material
917. # [19:32] <Philip`> I don't think they're going to release any new information via Twitter
918. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> Hmm, where?
919. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> I didn't see it.
920. # [19:33] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/03/16/html5-hardware-accelerated-first-ie9-platform-preview-available-for-developers.aspx - "we showed HTML5 video support at the MIX conference, as well as how HTML5 video (specifically industry standard HD-encoded, H.264 720p) [...]"
921. # [19:33] <miketaylr> here, i believe, AryehGregor: http://twitter.com/IE/status/10577927335
922. # [19:33] <miketaylr> oops
923. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> Philip`, point.
924. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> Okay, then, Twitter is probably pointless.
925. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> (as usual)
926. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> or if we want it to become true, we could just do I want things to become true, which is, I just add them to Wikipedia with a citation to some site I control where I emphatically affirm that it's true, quoting "sources that asked to remain unnamed in order to protect their confidentiality"
927. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> Revert, personal website, does not meet [[WP:RS]].
928. # [19:35] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-oyblziocqvnupnwv)
929. # [19:35] * Quits: sbublava (~stephan@77.116.234.204.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Quit: sbublava)
930. # [19:36] <Philip`> Then you wait until a news site cites the wiki article, and then you make the wiki article cite the site
931. # [19:36] * Parts: BARTdG (~BARTdG@5ED43020.cable.ziggo.nl)
932. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> it worked for the Judith "Weapons of Mass Destruction" Miller and the New York Times
933. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> I wish I had a good response to that, but I don't, because it's actually happened.
934. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> The moral for me is that Wikipedia shouldn't cite journalists on subjects where you could conceivably cite anything more authoritative.
935. # [19:36] <Philip`> You can verify the consistency of statements, but you can't verify the truth
936. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> it's trivial to do, despite the editards
937. # [19:37] <Philip`> and it's easy to set up consistent loops of untruths
938. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> yes
939. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> and easy to base a whole career on them
940. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I'm fairly sure that I can verify the truth of the statement "Manhattan is not currently a desolate wasteland after a surprise nuclear strike by China this morning."
941. # [19:37] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
942. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> witness Charles Pellegrino and Henry Holt and the Last Train to Hiroshima saga
943. # [19:38] <Philip`> AryehGregor: You can only verify it by determining that it is inconsistent with your observations
944. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> I hope China does that just to rid us forever of a setting for Sex and the City
945. # [19:39] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-oyblziocqvnupnwv) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
946. # [19:39] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, then it would continue like CSI … SatC: Miami
947. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> Philip`, however, I can verify the truth of the observation its negation would be inconsistent with, insofar as I'm in Manhattan right now and can directly observe that it's not a desolate wasteland.
948. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> (at least, not the whole thing; haven't checked downtown lately)
949. # [19:40] <miketaylr> as long as they keep the fallout from my neighborhood in southern brooklyn, i'm okay with that scenario as well
950. # [19:40] <MikeSmith> Miami is high on the list too.. when I was in Texas and watched Armageddon when it first came out, everybody cheered with the aliens destroyed Houston
951. # [19:40] <roc_> personally I would have prioritiized canvas higher than SVG
952. # [19:40] <roc_> it's a lot easier, and probably more used on the Web
953. # [19:41] <Philip`> Is it used by any of the top 7000 sites?
954. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> the waste toxicity of the east river provides a barrier that would protect Brooklyn for a Manhattan attack
955. # [19:42] <miketaylr> truth.
956. # [19:42] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-qdkuckwiqcuyspus)
957. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> roc_: I would rather they'd done both
958. # [19:42] <roc_> I kind of expect they will
959. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> yeah
960. # [19:43] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-liltwqqyekwuwxbd)
961. # [19:43] <roc_> Philip`: I don't know, but I bet SVG isn't
962. # [19:43] <Philip`> I doubt they'd ask so many questions about the spec if they didn't have some intention of implementing it at some point
963. # [19:44] <Philip`> They've probably asked more questions about canvas than about all the parts of HTML5 they've already implemented and shipped or announced, combined
964. # [19:44] <Philip`> (Admittedly that's still only about five questions)
965. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> maybe their canvas needs more work and they judged that having a partial SVG implementation was OK but that waiting to have a non-partial canvas would be better
966. # [19:44] <othermaciej> Philip`: I believe Google Maps can optionally use <canvas>
967. # [19:45] <roc_> Google Maps can use SVG too
968. # [19:45] <gsnedders> That is true
969. # [19:45] <roc_> implementing canvas on top of Direct 2D is really quite easy
970. # [19:45] <Philip`> Depends if you care about all the edge cases
971. # [19:45] <Philip`> (I'd guess)
972. # [19:46] <roc_> maybe, but existing browsers don't get all the edge cases right either
973. # [19:46] <hsivonen> If google maps can use SVG, why doesn't it?
974. # [19:46] <roc_> it would certainly be easy to get something going for a "tech preview"
975. # [19:47] <roc_> hsivonen: it does, it uses SVG for the routes in Gecko, last I checked
976. # [19:47] <hsivonen> roc_: ah. not for the map, though
977. # [19:47] <roc_> for the actual map tiles, I expect SVG is a giant performance lose
978. # [19:47] <othermaciej> I think it is capable of using CSS transforms and transitions for the map tiles now
979. # [19:49] <hsivonen> does the IE9 preview run on XP?
980. # [19:49] <Philip`> No
981. # [19:49] <hsivonen> are they doing video using Vista/7-only APIs?
982. # [19:49] <Philip`> Yes
983. # [19:50] <Philip`> They're seemingly doing all rendering using Vista/7-only APIs
984. # [19:50] <hsivonen> that's an interesting decision
985. # [19:50] <Philip`> (Direct2D)
986. # [19:50] <hsivonen> I guess I need to purchase another Windows license in order to poke at IE
987. # [19:51] <Dashiva> I suppose it's time to try out DX 10+ too...
988. # [19:51] <Philip`> Unsurprisingly, it doesn't appear to work in Wine
989. # [19:51] <miketaylr> hsivonen: i found out the hard way: http://miketaylr.com/post/dbf12ce8.png
990. # [19:52] <roc_> that's probably a good decision for them
991. # [19:52] <Philip`> (http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/info/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/Default.html mentions XP)
992. # [19:52] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
993. # [19:52] <miketaylr> ah yes, FAQS. i've heard of those.
994. # [19:52] <no_mind> why doesnt microsft puts IE to rest
995. # [19:53] <Philip`> "Will Internet Explorer 9 run on Windows XP? It’s too early to talk about features of the Internet Explorer 9 Beta."
996. # [19:53] <Philip`> They're not saying it *won't* run
997. # [19:53] <Philip`> so they could add a non-hardware-accelerated rendering mode, perhaps
998. # [19:54] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@z186083.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
999. # [19:54] <Dashiva> (I think people sticking to IE6 are a bigger problem than XP users on IE8, overall)
1000. # [19:55] <hsivonen> does D2D work on VirtualBox?
1001. # [19:57] <Philip`> IE9 works for me in VMware on Linux
1002. # [19:57] <roc_> I don't know
1003. # [19:57] <roc_> VMWare does support D2D, accelerated even
1004. # [19:57] <Philip`> so it's not getting real hardware access there
1005. # [19:58] <roc_> VMWare does support some level of hardware acceleration
1006. # [19:58] * Philip` has no idea what layers perform emulation in this case
1007. # [19:59] <Philip`> My hardware doesn't really support much acceleration, and I'd be shocked if the OS/driver/X11/VMware/etc compatibility was good enough for it to reach all the way through to a VM :-)
1008. # [20:00] <hsivonen> well, I guess VMWare has the record-and-replay bonus, although it's not relly productized on Linux yet
1009. # [20:01] * hsivonen just decided against purchasing Windows 7 plus VMWare two weeks ago.
1010. # [20:01] * Philip` is using the free VMware Player so it doesn't do anything fancy like that
1011. # [20:02] <Philip`> For some reason it doesn't even like transmitting mouse-up events if the cursor is not in the top-left few hundred pixels of the screen, either
1012. # [20:02] <Philip`> which makes resizing windows tricky
1013. # [20:05] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
1014. # [20:05] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
1015. # [20:16] <Philip`> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/ff468705.aspx
1016. # [20:16] <Philip`> "Added HTML5 support
1017. # [20:16] <Philip`> * Improved parsing of generic elements
1018. # [20:16] <Philip`> * Improved parsing of overlapping tags
1019. # [20:16] <Philip`> * script and style block parsing changes
1020. # [20:16] <Philip`> * Text selection APIs"
1021. # [20:19] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@c-67-173-239-97.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
1022. # [20:22] <Philip`> "Internet Explorer Platform Preview follows the HTML5 draft spec and resolves overlapping tags at parse time."
1023. # [20:24] * Quits: roc_ (~roc@121-72-195-150.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc_)
1024. # [20:30] * Quits: shepazutoo (~schepers@wsip-98-173-111-7.lv.lv.cox.net) (Quit: shepazutoo)
1025. # [20:31] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Quit: cying)
1026. # [20:33] <zcorpan> "* script and style block parsing changes" - wonder what they changed. looking at html5lib tests they haven't implemented the double escaped dash dash stuff
1027. # [20:33] <gsnedders> No reparsing?
1028. # [20:33] <gsnedders> But if they have the old stuff from the spec…
1029. # [20:33] <gsnedders> Well, I guess they have their compat modes
1030. # [20:35] <zcorpan> i think they still reparse if i interpret the output correctly
1031. # [20:35] <Philip`> zcorpan: It says later on
1032. # [20:36] <Philip`> "Internet Explorer 8 and earlier versions do not pass text, in either a script or style block, to text nodes in the DOM. Internet Explorer Platform Preview persists text in script or style blocks to the DOM as text nodes, as expected. This enables you to display source code on your page using script."
1033. # [20:36] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok. i don't see that in the html5lib test output though
1034. # [20:37] <zcorpan> oh wait
1035. # [20:37] <zcorpan> i was looking at tests without a doctype
1036. # [20:38] <zcorpan> that explains it
1037. # [20:42] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-121-41.dynamic.hinet.net)
1038. # [20:43] * Parts: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-121-41.dynamic.hinet.net)
1039. # [20:44] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-121-41.dynamic.hinet.net)
1040. # [20:56] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
1041. # [20:56] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Changing host)
1042. # [20:56] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
1043. # [20:57] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
1044. # [20:57] <Dashiva> "Bray is the co-inventor of the XML Web standard"
1045. # [20:57] <Dashiva> Does "invent" make sense for something like XML?
1046. # [20:58] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
1047. # [20:58] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
1048. # [20:59] <erlehmann> Dashiva, what would you say ? That he discovered the fundamentals of XML ? ;)
1049. # [20:59] <gsnedders> I invented a subset of SGML!
1050. # [20:59] <erlehmann> That's nothing ! I invented a subset of ASCII containing only the letter x !
1051. # [21:00] <erlehmann> xxxxxxxxxxxxxx … see ?
1052. # [21:00] <gsnedders> Wow.
1053. # [21:00] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-60-214.A163.priv.bahnhof.se)
1054. # [21:00] <gsnedders> Impresssive.
1055. # [21:01] <Dashiva> erlehmann: I would say designer, editor, or even architect
1056. # [21:01] <Dashiva> Inventor sounds wrong to me
1057. # [21:01] <zcorpan> what about Namespaces?
1058. # [21:03] <erlehmann> Dashiva, fine. I hereby proclaim myself the architect of lowercase-x-notation !
1059. # [21:04] <erlehmann> to collect royalties, x-LA will be set up soon ;)
1060. # [21:05] <erlehmann> i think inventor is fundamentally right, even if it may ring the wrong bells here or there
1061. # [21:05] <Dashiva> Namespaces are evil enough that I can imagine a mad scientist inventing them
1062. # [21:06] <erlehmann> you mean a mad engineer
1063. # [21:06] <erlehmann> unless there's a hypothesis hidden in the spec
1064. # [21:06] * Joins: roc_ (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
1065. # [21:06] <erlehmann> tag soup parsers are the control group !
1066. # [21:08] <Dashiva> The hypothesis was that people would actually use it
1067. # [21:09] <erlehmann> mad science indeed
1068. # [21:10] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
1069. # [21:12] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@171-20.ftth.alicecomfortplus.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1070. # [21:14] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.17.58)
1071. # [21:16] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@171-20.ftth.alicecomfortplus.nl)
1072. # [21:23] <annevk> Hixie, your response on the progress element question does not really answer the question
1073. # [21:23] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.90.214) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1074. # [21:23] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Quit: Leaving)
1075. # [21:25] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1076. # [21:29] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.187)
1077. # [21:31] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
1078. # [21:34] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
1079. # [21:35] * Quits: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-dxprtsilclejohqa) (Quit: pmuellr)
1080. # [21:43] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net)
1081. # [21:43] * Philip` sees a Q&A video with Dean Hachamovitch
1082. # [21:44] <Philip`> in which the second question the host asks is about canvas support
1083. # [21:45] <Philip`> and he doesn't say anything specific but notes that all of IE9's graphics are hardware-accelerated, and that there are more things to come than have been announced
1084. # [21:46] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1085. # [21:46] * Quits: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-25-82.dynamic.qsc.de) (Quit: Leaving)
1086. # [21:47] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
1087. # [21:48] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au)
1088. # [21:51] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.196)
1089. # [21:52] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-73-57.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
1090. # [21:56] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@cpe-66-25-140-251.austin.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1091. # [21:59] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
1092. # [22:02] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net) (Quit: shepazu)
1093. # [22:03] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-mpolbgmitjaowaei)
1094. # [22:03] * Joins: cying_ (~cying@70.90.171.153)
1095. # [22:04] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
1096. # [22:05] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Read error: Operation timed out)
1097. # [22:05] * cying_ is now known as cying
1098. # [22:13] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@c-f807e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
1099. # [22:13] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@c-f807e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
1100. # [22:22] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
1101. # [22:22] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-199-9.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
1102. # [22:25] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-188-79.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1103. # [22:40] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
1104. # [22:42] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.17.58) (Quit: weinig)
1105. # [22:44] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.66) (Quit: Leaving...)
1106. # [22:47] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@c-f807e353.13-500-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1107. # [22:49] * Joins: beilabs_ (~beilabs@ppp121-44-57-172.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net)
1108. # [22:53] * Quits: JusticeFries (~justicefr@c-67-173-239-97.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: JusticeFries)
1109. # [22:56] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@cpe-66-25-140-251.austin.res.rr.com)
1110. # [23:00] * beilabs_ is now known as beilabs
1111. # [23:00] * Joins: portenkirchner (~portenkir@p4FFC98FD.dip.t-dialin.net)
1112. # [23:00] * Quits: portenkirchner (~portenkir@p4FFC98FD.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
1113. # [23:01] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@z186083.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
1114. # [23:05] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
1115. # [23:14] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-mpolbgmitjaowaei) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1116. # [23:15] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Remote host closed the connection)
1117. # [23:16] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
1118. # [23:17] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net)
1119. # [23:22] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@91-103-36-68.dynamic.thecloud.net)
1120. # [23:22] <zcorpan> so ie9 won't need the html5 shiv
1121. # [23:26] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1122. # [23:26] <othermaciej> nice
1123. # [23:26] <othermaciej> they have correct handling of unknown elements?
1124. # [23:26] * Quits: roc_ (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc_)
1125. # [23:26] <zcorpan> no, <foo/> gets self-closed
1126. # [23:27] <jgraham> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/cormac/papers/2009/SoLongAndNoThanks.pdf seems like it might be interesting
1127. # [23:28] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Remote host closed the connection)
1128. # [23:29] * jgraham notices the text of the license on that paper forbids "redistribution to lists", wonders what that means and whether posting a URL counts
1129. # [23:31] <Philip`> Summary: "Microsoft recommends leaving users ignorant to simple security vulnerabilities"
1130. # [23:32] <Philip`> although, in the interest of not entirely blatantly misrepresenting it, I suppose I should note that it ends with "this paper is not to be read as an encouragement to end-users to ignore security policies or advice. The opinions expressed are those of the author."
1131. # [23:33] <Philip`> (Also that was my summary, not a direct quote)
1132. # [23:33] <jgraham> Philip`: I haven't read it all yet but it doesn't seem to say that, really
1133. # [23:34] <jgraham> It notes that it is somewhat rational to ignore security advice if the cost of understanding and following that advice is greater than the expected loss from not following that advice
1134. # [23:34] <Philip`> Sure, but worrying about what it really says is not the way to write headlines on tech news sites
1135. # [23:35] <jgraham> Which seems like a major over simplification since you need to look not just at the expected loss but at the distribution of possible losses
1136. # [23:35] <Philip`> and for most people the cost of reading the actual paper is less than the benefit they gain from doing so
1137. # [23:35] <jgraham> e.g. if you can have all your money stolen that is really bad even if there is only a 1 in a million chance it happens to you and so the expected loss is < $1
1138. # [23:36] <Philip`> Why is that really bad?
1139. # [23:36] <Philip`> Or, (why) is it more bad than two million people each guaranteed to lose < $1?
1140. # [23:38] <jgraham> I guess the total possible effect on your life scales more than linearly with the amount of money lost (beyond a certian point)
1141. # [23:38] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
1142. # [23:38] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
1143. # [23:41] * Joins: Rik`_ (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
1144. # [23:42] * Quits: hendry (~hendry@webvm.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1145. # [23:43] <Philip`> jgraham: Only up to a certain point
1146. # [23:43] * Joins: hendry (~hendry@webvm.net)
1147. # [23:43] <Philip`> with that point being when you are bankrupt
1148. # [23:43] <Philip`> and then you don't care any more
1149. # [23:43] <jgraham> (the other problem with this typ of calculation is that the asumption of rational behaviour is totally flawed. In particular people are probably totally incapable of estimating the probability of a given attack, so if they happen to make "rational" decisions it is probably happenstance)
1150. # [23:44] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1151. # [23:44] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
1152. # [23:45] <Philip`> (Incidentally, would you suggest it is rational to play the lottery, because super-linear scaling means a 10^-7 chance of winning £1M outweighs a 10^0 chance of losing £1?)
1153. # [23:46] <Dashiva> Philip`: No, the value of the million is subject to decreasing value since it's so big
1154. # [23:46] <Philip`> The abstract sounds ambiguous about the suggested behaviour
1155. # [23:46] <roc> you can argue that due to various kinds of poverty traps, playing the lottery is rational in some cases
1156. # [23:47] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-60-214.A163.priv.bahnhof.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
1157. # [23:47] <Philip`> i.e. whether it means user behaviour (driven by ignorance and laziness) happens to coincide with rational behaviour, or whether it's actually suggesting users are making rational evaluations themselves
1158. # [23:47] <Dashiva> I think the paper should also be read as implementor-facing: "These behaviors are bad for users, so don't make your security depend on them"
1159. # [23:48] <jgraham> Dashiva: That was the interesting point of view for me
1160. # [23:48] <othermaciej> is risk-aversion natural?
1161. # [23:48] <othermaciej> er rational?
1162. # [23:48] <othermaciej> most people dislike losing what they have more than they like gaining something
1163. # [23:48] <Dashiva> only if they understand the risk, though
1164. # [23:48] <roc> it depends
1165. # [23:49] * Quits: hendry (~hendry@webvm.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
1166. # [23:49] * Joins: hendry (~hendry@webvm.net)
1167. # [23:49] <roc> I think the main point of the paper is that we tend to not rationally consider the costs of security measures
1168. # [23:49] <othermaciej> it's a well-known result in behavioral economics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect
1169. # [23:49] <roc> we == vendors and researchers
1170. # [23:50] <roc> asking everyone in the world to do something that takes only a few seconds is actually a tremendous cost
1171. # [23:50] <roc> that's a humbling thought for browser developers :-)
1172. # [23:50] <othermaciej> otoh I don't think endowment effect applies in the case of a very low probability of a large loss
1173. # [23:50] <othermaciej> this is why I hate conformation dialogs as a security measure
1174. # [23:51] <othermaciej> even if everyone read it and carefully considered the implications, the cost would likely still exceed the benefit
1175. # [23:51] <roc> people are irrationally fearful of certain kinds of losses, like shark attacks
1176. # [23:51] * Quits: ray (ray@the.ug) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1177. # [23:51] * Joins: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol)
1178. # [23:51] <Philip`> When there was a 2 minute silence in America for some people who had died, I wondered how many lifetime's worth of productivity was being lost because of that
1179. # [23:51] * Joins: ray (ray@the.ug)
1180. # [23:51] <Philip`> But it was only about 20 years of productivity, so it wasn't even a whole person
1181. # [23:51] <othermaciej> people are scared of low-probability risk of death or serious injury, if the scenario is particularly vivid
1182. # [23:52] <othermaciej> that's another well-known cognitive bias
1183. # [23:52] <roc> so there's the answer
1184. # [23:52] <roc> "if you don't look at this site's certificate, you will be eaten by a shark"
1185. # [23:52] * Quits: no_mind (~orion@122.162.1.16) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1186. # [23:52] <Dashiva> Philip`: Sort of like that rant about emails sent to large lists
1187. # [23:52] <othermaciej> however it doesn't tend to apply to risks where the consequences seem commonplace
1188. # [23:52] <othermaciej> especially where costs of avoiding the risk would require ongoing active effort
1189. # [23:53] <Dashiva> (For certificates, pretending it's http seems like a great solution to me)
1190. # [23:53] * Quits: bobs (~oeskola@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1191. # [23:53] * Quits: syp (~syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1192. # [23:53] * Joins: syp (~syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
1193. # [23:54] * Joins: bobs (~oeskola@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi)
1194. # [23:55] <othermaciej> I think the paper ignores the fact that certain security measures have a very high false positive rate only because they exist
1195. # [23:55] <othermaciej> for example, if there was no error for invalid certs, a lot more phishing sites would use them
1196. # [23:55] <jgraham> I was going to point out the same thing
1197. # [23:55] <othermaciej> they only avoid using them because there is a scary warning
1198. # [23:56] <Dashiva> But as long as the sites weren't flagged as valid certs, it would be no different from now in effeciency
1199. # [23:56] <roc> othermaciej: is that actually true
1200. # [23:56] <roc> ?
1201. # [23:57] <othermaciej> roc: I haven't seen the full counter-factual world of high degree of phishing/pharming but no warning whatsoever on invalid certs
1202. # [23:57] <othermaciej> but it may mean the level of scariness of the warning is nearly irrelevant
1203. # [23:57] <roc> right
1204. # [23:58] <othermaciej> roc: I do know that at least some malware modifies your local DNS settings and system root certs
1205. # [23:58] <Philip`> http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2010/03/05/new_browser_reports_over_half_of_ssl_sites_may_be_unsafe.html
1206. # [23:58] <Philip`> "A new internet browser, Comodo Dragon, reports that more than half of the world's valid SSL certificates are unsafe."
1207. # [23:58] <othermaciej> whence I conclude that it is at least somewhat valuable to attackers to be able to appear 100% like the real site, if they were able to do so
1208. # [23:58] <Philip`> Also: "Although Comodo states that many websites connected to cyber-crimes use domain-validated certificates, Netcraft's phishing site feed shows that only 0.3% of reported phishing sites use HTTPS, including those running on compromised servers with SSL certificates already in place."
1209. # [23:59] <othermaciej> phishing from a non-SSL server is extremely effective
1210. # [23:59] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1211. # Session Close: Wed Mar 17 00:00:00 2010

The end :)