/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-18 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Mar 18 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:04] <jgraham> Dashiva: Not really
# [00:06] <jgraham> I guess "it's possible to just use the platform-supplied codecs and push the licensing concerns onto someone else" is a valid counter argument
# [00:07] <jgraham> But there are real disadvantages
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# [00:10] <Dashiva> jgraham: sounds similar to "It's possible to just use the flash-supplied codecs and push the licensing concerns onto someone else"
# [00:12] <jgraham> Dashiva: You probably have to implement NPAPI anyway and it is probably mostly shared between platforms whilst video would need N implementations to ship on N platforms
# [00:12] <Dashiva> Oh, sure, it's more work. But it's just another feature to support, there's nothing inherently harder about it.
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# [00:39] <Hixie> i love feedback that just says "Section 1.2.3, step 4 should be changed to do X because Y" where X and Y assume you know what section 1.2.3 step 4 is.
# [00:39] * Dashiva tries to parse
# [00:39] <Dashiva> Oh
# [00:40] <Hixie> given that there are over a dozen specs each with different section numbers, several of which are the same text, and all of which change regularly, and given that i only look at feedback with a latency of a few months...
# [00:40] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, Windows doesn't have H.264 codecs installed by default before Windows 7, as far as I've heard.
# [00:42] <AryehGregor> And it's true that Linux only does on the theory of "downloading my distribution copy of ffmpeg-nonfree isn't pirating, honest".
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# [00:46] <AryehGregor> Okay, who has any idea what might be the issue here? http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/63842
# [00:46] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure what would cause Mac and Windows Firefox to treat px differently. Different DPI settings or something?
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# [00:49] <Dashiva> Maybe they use different baselines to offset from
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# [01:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: would be good to have some webkit feedback on http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-March/025403.html
# [01:00] <Hixie> annevk: opera feedback too ^
# [01:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: it looks to me like that message is itself WebKit feedback
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# [01:03] <Hixie> true
# [01:03] <Hixie> annevk! opera's feedback would be most welcome :-)
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# [01:06] <roc> AryehGregor: we've heard that Microsoft is going to ship an H.264 codec in Vista SP2
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# [01:07] <roc> a lot of XP users will upgrade to Windows 7 relatively soon, but there will probably be a very long tail of XP users too
# [01:08] <roc> AryehGregor: I suspect that person is probably just confused ... it's more likely font differences that are causing a problem
# [01:13] <daedb> roc: Vista SP2 has been out for quite awhile, with no h.264 codec.
# [01:13] <roc> ok, some future service pack then?
# [01:13] <daedb> SP3 maybe :)
# [01:13] <roc> they're going to need an H.264 codec for IE9, certainly
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# [01:16] <JoePeck> Reading up on <input type=range> at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/number-state.html#range-state
# [01:16] <JoePeck> [[ When the element is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#suffering-from-an-underflow, the user agent must set the element's http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#concept-fe-value to a http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#valid-floating-point-number that represents
# [01:16] <JoePeck> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-input-element-attributes.html#concept-input-min. ]]
# [01:16] <JoePeck> eek, sorry!
# [01:16] <JoePeck> [[ When the element is suffering from an underflow, the user agent must set the element's value to a valid floating point number that represents the minimum. ]]
# [01:16] <JoePeck> I read that and I see, "if the element is suffering from an under, set its value so its no longer underflows"
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# [01:17] <JoePeck> Am I reading that correctly? Can a range input ever underflow?
# [01:17] * JoePeck goes to test what browsers do
# [01:19] <mpilgrim_> jgraham: i have little sympathy for companies that get all faint-y about H.264 licensing fees but continue to ship browsers that support NPAPI
# [01:20] <mpilgrim_> we have over 10 years of experience with NPAPI, and it's pretty clear that its only purpose is to serve as a backdoor for all manner of proprietary crap to sneak into browsers, shit all over the web, and then complain about the smell
# [01:20] <Hixie> JoePeck: it can momentarily suffer from an underflow if you use script to set it to a value below the minimum
# [01:20] <Hixie> JoePeck: but that sentence means the steady state can't suffer from an underflow
# [01:21] <Hixie> JoePeck: if that makes sense
# [01:21] <JoePeck> Hixie: okay, but correct behavior should then immediately set the value to be the minimum, and its overflow validity state would then be false?
# [01:21] <mpilgrim_> if you really want to support an open web, drop support for NPAPI plugins
# [01:21] <mpilgrim_> otherwise, STFU
# [01:25] <Philip`> Seems a bit late for that to have any effect other than driving away users to other browsers
# [01:25] <Philip`> whereas it's not necessarily too late yet to influence how people use <video>
# [01:26] <Hixie> JoePeck: yeah
# [01:26] <JoePeck> Hixie: ahh, I just changed my mind
# [01:26] <JoePeck> Hixie: The "value sanitization algorithm" which modifies the value is only run [[ When an input element's type attribute changes state, and when the element is first created ]].
# [01:27] <JoePeck> Hixie: so if the input element is already a range, and a script sets its value to an underflowing value, "what then"
# [01:27] <Hixie> setting .value also invokes the value sanitization algorithm
# [01:28] <JoePeck> Hixie: ahh I see thanks.
# [01:28] <JoePeck> a lot of "ahh" moments, I'll need to read this more completely after I work out this bug
# [01:28] <JoePeck> Hixie: thanks!
# [01:28] <Hixie> my pelasure
# [01:29] <Hixie> pleasure also
# [01:29] <Hixie> i wish it was easier to read
# [01:29] <Hixie> but i don't know how to make it easier to read
# [01:29] <Hixie> fundamentally what we're speccing here is a mess
# [01:29] <Hixie> so the spec kinda has to be a mess too
# [01:29] <JoePeck> the links help, but in this case
# [01:30] <Hixie> a key thing to know about the links is that when you reach the bold <dfn> of a term, you can click that to get a list of references to it
# [01:30] <JoePeck> the "value sanitization algorithm" link only went to the first case, and not the .value case
# [01:30] <Hixie> (only works in the one-page version though)
# [01:30] <JoePeck> thanks again =)
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# [02:17] <mpilgrim> Philip`: yeah, people are really fleeing the iPhone in droves
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# [02:20] <Dashiva> Is this tweet a case for a standardized RT end tag? http://twitter.com/diveintomark/status/10645203889
# [02:22] <erlehmann_> Dashiva, you have <q> and </q> for that already. stupid twitter not supporting markup (also, counting it towards the character limit gave rise to short url services that break the web)
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# [02:22] <othermaciej> most people put "via" at the end if they want a retweet with commentary, in this case it wouldn't have worked for the humor purpose of the post
# [02:23] <Dashiva> I'm pretty sure tinyurl was around before twitter
# [02:23] <erlehmann_> HTML 2.0 WTF
# [02:24] <erlehmann_> isn't „gave rise“ something akin to „made it popular“ ?
# [02:24] <erlehmann_> also, ars technicas site is XHTML 1.0 Transitional. where did they get that 2.0 thingy from ?
# [02:25] <Dashiva> Their CMS is probably XHTML, but their web server error pages are not part of the CMS
# [02:26] <erlehmann_> well, i guess they would fail on a 500 too in most cases if they were ;)
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# [02:29] <sicking> hum, does HTML not support hex numeric entities? Like @ ?
# [02:30] <sicking> never mind, i'm just doing it wrong
# [02:30] <mpilgrim> OH NOES I'M USING TWITTER INCORRECTLY
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# [02:30] <JoePeck> Hixie: can I run a very simple example past you to see if you think its correct or not?
# [02:33] <Hixie> sure
# [02:33] <JoePeck> var x = document.createElement('input'); x.type='range'; // range input
# [02:33] <JoePeck> x.max = 2; x.value = 3; // this causes overFlow, value gets changed to
# [02:33] <JoePeck> x.validationMessage; // shouldn't be any, because value is now stable
# [02:34] <Hixie> sounds right, but i could be mistaken
# [02:34] <JoePeck> okay. I feel like that removes the usefulness of element.validity.rangeOverflow and rangeUnderflow for type=range
# [02:35] <JoePeck> but I do feel like this should be correct behavior
# [02:38] <Hixie> well there is no usefulness of element.validity.rangeOverflow and rangeUnderflow for type=range, so i don't think removing it is a problem :-)
# [02:39] <JoePeck> I was just going to try to get some implementor feedback, maybe send a question to the mailing list
# [02:39] <JoePeck> I haven't checked the other input types affected rangeUnderflows/rangeOverflows
# [02:39] <Dashiva> Sleep... Norwegian letters in the Safari 4 installer become chinese symbols
# [02:39] <Dashiva> *Sleek
# [02:40] <sicking> that's internationalization taken to new levels
# [02:40] <sicking> "install safari, become a world traveler"
# [02:41] <Dashiva> Actually, it might be Japanese
# [02:42] <Hixie> JoePeck: many of the validity flags are only useful for particular controls, i wouldn't worry about that
# [02:43] <JoePeck> Hixie: okay. Its just WebKit had a bunch of tests for overflow / underflow which, after reading the spec, didn't seem to make sense
# [02:44] <Hixie> ah ok
# [02:44] <Hixie> that's quite possible :-)
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# [03:01] <roc> mpilgrim: for a long time there was (and to some extent still is) nothing comparable to the iPhone
# [03:01] <roc> the desktop browser space is a lot more competitive
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# [03:02] <roc> if we (Mozilla) thought we could ditch NPAPI support and remain competitive, we probably would
# [03:02] <roc> it would be a lot less work, that's for sure
# [03:02] <Dashiva> Really? Isn't the API pretty much static?
# [03:03] <roc> it evolves
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# [03:03] <roc> but all browsers are doing lots of work to isolate plugins into their own processes etc
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# [03:05] <roc> mpilgrim: in fact, even today there is nothing really comparable to the iPhone that supports Flash yet
# [03:06] <Dashiva> mpilgrim: I saw a claim on hackernews that youporn has a <video> mobile edition, but I can't verify ;)
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# [03:10] <othermaciej> Dashiva: once we have the porn sites its game over
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# [03:28] <mpilgrim> dashiva: that's probably where i read it too
# [03:31] <mpilgrim> roc: i understand your present position, but outsourcing all the patent-encumbered stuff to a third-party plugin (via an API where third-party vendors can add unlimited amounts of new patent-encumbered stuff at any time) is hardly noble
# [03:31] <roc> that is not our goal
# [03:31] <mpilgrim> that is the reality of NPAPI
# [03:31] <roc> that is not our goal for Web video
# [03:31] <roc> our goal is to not depend on patent-encumbered stuff at all
# [03:31] <mpilgrim> ...except for all the stuff you've outsourced to adobe
# [03:32] <roc> tthat is temporary
# [03:32] <mpilgrim> everything is temporary if you live long enough
# [03:32] <mpilgrim> i don't see "removing NPAPI" on any mozilla roadmap
# [03:33] <mpilgrim> did i miss a memo?
# [03:33] <roc> I don't believe we can remove NPAPI and remain relevant
# [03:34] <roc> hopefully at some point in the future this will no longer be true
# [03:34] <mpilgrim> that's a pretty loose definition of "temporary"
# [03:34] <roc> yes it is
# [03:34] <roc> I can't predict what will happen on the Web, sorry
# [03:34] * jcranmer points to the temporary Mork database in mozilla code
# [03:34] <roc> it's gone
# [03:34] <roc> anyway
# [03:35] <jcranmer> about 10 years later
# [03:35] <mpilgrim> well, i hope we all live long enough to see it
# [03:35] <roc> so do I
# [03:35] <roc> we'll need NPAPI support as long as there's a mass of Flash content on the Web that people want to use
# [03:35] <roc> I can't control that
# [03:36] <othermaciej> jcranmer: Mork?
# [03:36] <jcranmer> I suspect the answer is there always will be
# [03:36] <roc> we *can* try to rescue video on the Web from a pay-to-play patent-encumbered prison
# [03:36] <jcranmer> othermaciej: something with which I have much more experience than I would like to have
# [03:36] <jcranmer> think about all those little flash games
# [03:36] <mpilgrim> not with just a client, you can't
# [03:37] <othermaciej> if Wikipedia (or some other site) gets a critical mass of Theora-only content, that seems more likely to drive Ogg
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# [03:37] <roc> I agree
# [03:38] <roc> we might lose
# [03:38] <roc> but mpilgrim said "I have little sympathy for companies that get all faint-y about H.264 licensing fees but continue to ship browsers that support NPAPI" and I have a problem with that
# [03:39] <othermaciej> I can understand Mozilla's desire not to ship H.264 out of the box, but I am puzzled that a third party is allowed to plug it in to <object> but there is by design no mechanism for a third party to plug it into <video>
# [03:39] <mpilgrim> i did say that, and i stand by it
# [03:39] <mpilgrim> you refuse to defer to OS-level codecs
# [03:39] <mpilgrim> so people are going to continue to use flash
# [03:39] <othermaciej> that seems to help plugins at the expense of <video> more than it helps Ogg at the expense of H.264
# [03:39] <mpilgrim> you don't even let firefox extensions add codec support
# [03:40] <roc> if we had to do H.264 we probably would defer to OS codecs, which is why "H.264 licensing fees" is a total non-issue
# [03:40] <mpilgrim> but you've stated publicly that you won't do that
# [03:40] <jcranmer> I suspect FF would refuse to support external <object> handlers were that a tenable option
# [03:40] <mpilgrim> (defer to OS codecs)
# [03:41] <mpilgrim> yet you continue to allow NPAPI plugins, which you acknowledge contain multiple patent-encumbered codecs, including H.264 in particular
# [03:41] <mpilgrim> so yeah, people are gonna keep using flash
# [03:41] <mpilgrim> congratulations, that's what you've achieved
# [03:41] <mpilgrim> i don't really care what your original goals were
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# [03:41] <roc> supporting H.264 is not going to make Flash go away
# [03:42] <roc> it really isn't
# [03:42] <mpilgrim> yes, i know, all those awesome flash games
# [03:42] <roc> if dropping H.264 would let us drop support for NPAPI, that would be worth serious consideration
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# [03:42] <roc> sorry
# [03:42] <roc> if *supporting* H.264...
# [03:42] <mpilgrim> not sure why kongregate.com can't just release a standalone client for playing them anyway
# [03:43] <mpilgrim> why does that have to happen in a browser?
# [03:43] <roc> the other thing is the content producer side
# [03:44] <mpilgrim> yes, i am aware i work for the single largest producer of H.264 web video
# [03:44] <deltab> mpilgrim: there already is a standalone player, though not everything will work in it (due to the lack of surrounding page)
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# [03:45] <mpilgrim> deltab: my point is that "flash games" is a common retort for why browsers have to keep supporting flash, despite the fact that the entire flash game industry has consolidated around a few key players who may as well release their own client (and may already be working on that, for all i know)
# [03:46] <mpilgrim> my friend's son programs flash games, makes a decent living at it (for a 15 year old)
# [03:46] <mpilgrim> the browser is just a weird quirky delivery device to him
# [03:46] <roc> it's not just Flash games
# [03:46] <roc> in China tons of Web sites are Flash-based
# [03:46] <roc> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/03/15/showcase-of-web-design-in-china-from-imitation-to-innovation-and-user-centered-design/
# [03:47] <roc> if you think it's so easy to drop Flash support, start at home with Chrome
# [03:47] <mpilgrim> don't you think i've made that argument?
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# [03:49] <mpilgrim> not with chrome specifically (which has all the same "market relevance" problems on the windows PC desktop), but with chrome os in particular (which is more like an iPhone in being a specialized almost-but-not-quite general-purpose-computing device)
# [03:50] <roc> I would also like to mention that support for plugging codecs into <video> is not omitted "by design"
# [03:50] <roc> codec extensibility would be a ton of extra work
# [03:50] <roc> we have simply not chosen to invest in that
# [03:51] <roc> In Windows 7 Microsoft has effectively dropped support for codec extensibility because it's such a pain
# [03:52] <roc> third-party codec extensibility, I mean
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# [05:05] <mpilgrim> hixie, you around?
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# [05:17] * mpilgrim adds a disclaimer to the latest chapter in "dive into html5" to the effect that he is probably talking out of his ass, while he waits for hixie to return and explain the online whitelist wildcard flag to him
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# [05:40] <Traveler> Hi
# [05:40] <Traveler> Should I use aside for a contact form or a div?
# [05:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: did you manage to get any good suggestions for short hidden='' examples?
# [05:42] <MikeSmith> Traveler: either would be fine probably
# [05:42] <Traveler> I see..
# [05:42] <MikeSmith> aside would not be inappropriate
# [05:43] <Traveler> Great.
# [05:44] <Traveler> What about nested asides?
# [05:44] <MikeSmith> what is the use case?
# [05:45] <MikeSmith> why would you want to put inside the aside
# [05:45] <Traveler> Well I have two aside elements but I need to wrap them in something so I could float them.
# [05:45] <Traveler> Div is better then?
# [05:46] <MikeSmith> why not an aside with two child divs?
# [05:46] <Traveler> Hmm
# [05:46] <Traveler> I did it the other way around
# [05:47] <Traveler> Your idea sounds better though.
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# [07:41] <MikeSmith> does the iPhone have both an accelerometer and a compass?
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# [07:47] <othermaciej> yeds
# [07:47] <othermaciej> *yes
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# [07:55] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: thanks
# [07:55] <MikeSmith> I was looking at Andrei's Orientation Event spec
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# [07:56] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html
# [07:57] <MikeSmith> I assume the OrientationEvent in that is meant to rely on a compass sensor
# [07:57] <MikeSmith> while the AccelerometerEvent event uses the accelerometer
# [07:58] <othermaciej> I have no idea
# [07:58] <othermaciej> I wish OrientationEvent didn't clash with the iPhone's "orientationchange" event
# [07:58] <othermaciej> which btw we'd like to standardize
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# [07:59] <MikeSmith> yeah, the name of that in Andrei's spec should maybe be changed
# [07:59] <othermaciej> is his event intended to be absolute orientation or relative orientation?
# [07:59] <MikeSmith> relative
# [07:59] <MikeSmith> I believe
# [07:59] <othermaciej> can a digital compass even tell you your pitch and yaw?
# [08:00] <othermaciej> I thought that data came from the accelerometer
# [08:00] <MikeSmith> yeah, I guess I'm not clear about what the relationship is
# [08:01] <MikeSmith> or why the spec has two interfaces instead of just one
# [08:01] <othermaciej> I'm also not clear why this spec is being done in the geolocation wg
# [08:01] <othermaciej> yeah I'm not clear on why there are two separate events instead of one
# [08:03] <MikeSmith> as far as why it's in the geolocation wg, I guess it may not be the ideal place, but I'm not sure it'd be worthwhile to bring it up -- I think Andrei and the chairs of that group did a pretty good job of keeping the geolocation API in scope and getting it published and seeing it get implemented
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# [08:05] <othermaciej> I have no quarrel with them, just not clear to me how it fits in their charter more than Web Apps WG or DAP
# [08:06] <othermaciej> I guess I should count myself lucky it did not end up in DAP
# [08:06] <MikeSmith> no comment
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# [08:20] * MikeSmith wonders what kind of response dude expects to his "Why WebGL? Why now and not 10 years ago?" message on the webgl list
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# [08:26] <othermaciej> that's a funny question
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# [08:40] <boblet> jeez. promo in blog of leading Japanese web events group for event on HTML5 + CSS3 (logo, title, speaker images and names, date and venue) … as a jpg
# [08:42] <boblet> don’t know whether to take the piss on Twitter, take the time to show them how to use, y’know, HTML5 & CSS3, or just go outside and scream
# [08:42] <boblet> not even any alt text ffs
# [08:42] <MikeSmith> CSSNite?
# [08:42] <boblet> MikeSmith: :X
# [08:42] <boblet> heh
# [08:43] <boblet> that was meant to be the “I’m unable to talk” emoticon
# [08:43] <boblet> seeing as I no doubt know all the organisers… gah
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# [08:44] <MikeSmith> Takano-san is a great guy, but I guess he's not as tuned into standards-based Web development as some others are
# [08:45] <boblet> nope. He’s tuned into Adobe-based web development :|
# [08:45] <MikeSmith> yeah, CSSNite is sometimes more like DreamWeaverNite
# [08:45] <MikeSmith> but a lot of the people who attend seem to like that about it
# [08:45] <boblet> lolsigh. guess what’s on in Kyoto tonight
# [08:46] <MikeSmith> having a common set of tools/authoring environment as a baseline keeps the how-to discussion pretty tightly focused
# [08:46] <MikeSmith> boblet: what's on?
# [08:47] <boblet> “DreamWeaver Town Meeting in Kyoto” :|
# [08:47] <MikeSmith> good for them
# [08:47] <boblet> oh hold on, 21st April
# [08:47] <boblet> saw it in the Twitters today, guess they announced it
# [08:48] <MikeSmith> certainly sounds like a lot better place to hook up than a Vim Town Meeting or an Emacs Town Meeting
# [08:48] <boblet> heh
# [08:49] <MikeSmith> I hope the high interest in HTML5 among Japanese developers will result in demand to have some really good integration for HTML5 features in Dreamweaver
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# [08:52] <MikeSmith> looking at reports about Google's TV venture with Sony and Intel reminds me that it seem like broadcast TV and video-on-demand industry has by far the most to gain financially from having royalty-free video codecs
# [08:52] <MikeSmith> for IPTV
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# [08:53] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I think there's room in the market for a tool to make really sweet rich interactive sites using HTML5+CSS3, but I am not sure Dreamweaver is a good starting point for it
# [08:53] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: not sure what other contenders there are
# [08:53] <MikeSmith> there is definitely a real business opportunity there
# [08:54] <boblet> sooner or later someone is gonna do it. probably when browsers y’know actually implement specs and stuff
# [08:55] <MikeSmith> anybody who wants to get market share and developer mindshare away from Dreamweaver has a big challenge on their hands
# [08:56] <MikeSmith> the figures I have heard on Dreamweaver in Japan at least are that 90%+ of working Web designers in Japan use Dreamweaver as their main authoring tool
# [08:57] <boblet> sad ;(
# [08:57] <MikeSmith> why sad?
# [08:57] <MikeSmith> from what I've seen the output from it is pretty good
# [08:57] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I think the best opportunity is to create a new tool focused on creating the UI for front end of an interactive AJAX-based web app, that integrates with one or more JS libraries and server-side frameworks
# [08:57] <boblet> because it’s suffering Adobe-itis
# [08:58] <othermaciej> but maybe I am just unaware of Dreamweaver's goodness
# [08:58] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: that indeed would be something
# [08:58] <boblet> where Adobe builds a great product, then tries to kill it little by little
# [08:58] <othermaciej> I would love to see a tool like the Cappuccino UI builder, but that generates markup as the output and integrates with jQuery or Dojo or something
# [08:58] <MikeSmith> well, Adobe didn't originally build Dreamweaver
# [08:58] <MikeSmith> Macromedia did
# [08:59] <MikeSmith> boblet: but I get your point
# [08:59] <boblet> I guess it’s better than that bs HomeSite Builder program
# [08:59] <othermaciej> I would probably want to work on such a thing if I didn't love my current job
# [08:59] <boblet> which is also quite popular for corporates
# [08:59] <boblet> (in Japan)
# [08:59] <MikeSmith> yeah, Cappuccino is inspiring
# [09:01] <MikeSmith> boblet: I worked as a tech writer at one time, and did all my work in FrameMaker, which was a really great product already at the time when Adobe acquired the company that made it
# [09:01] <MikeSmith> but after the acquired it, the made very few real improvements to it
# [09:03] <boblet> MikeSmith: I *loved* Freehand back in the day — used it to do a crazy 100 page booklet as full printer’s spreads when I was in University, doing things that would be near impossible in Illustrator and damn hard in InDesign
# [09:03] <boblet> yeah Framemaker was almost bought to prevent competition with the inferior PageMaker huh
# [09:03] <MikeSmith> roc, doublec - have either of you guys ever met Rob Glidden? I'm wondering what he's up to these days. He still seems to be blogging now and then
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# [09:05] <roc> never heard of him
# [09:05] <roc> I wrote my PhD thesis in Framemaker
# [09:05] <roc> it was pretty cool
# [09:06] <MikeSmith> yeah, there are features in Frame that I have still never seen in other products
# [09:06] <MikeSmith> like the mechanism that it provides for creating and managing cross-references
# [09:06] <MikeSmith> and the one that it has for creating indexes
# [09:07] <roc> one way to attack the tools market would be to make the tools Web-based
# [09:07] <MikeSmith> that would certainly fit with othermaciej Cappuccino idea
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> roc: Rob Glidden is http://www.robglidden.com/2009/12/royalty-free-codec-standards-dont-settle-for-less/
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> http://www.robglidden.com/
# [09:08] <roc> Microsoft's Expression stuff seems good but I'm told they've had a really hard time making inroads with designers who are all hooked on Adobe
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# [09:08] <othermaciej> Making a web-based tool is an interesting idea
# [09:08] <roc> if Microsoft can't make progress there, it'd be even harder for players without Microsoft's tools leverage
# [09:09] <MikeSmith> roc: yeah, I would expect that's going to be the case with anybody else trying to get a piece of that market
# [09:09] <MikeSmith> roc: Rob used to work at Sun and was involved, I think, with the Sun OMS Video work
# [09:09] <roc> Microsoft's tools integrate with Visual Studio, ASP.NET, IIS, etc ... you'd think that'd be useful for someone :-)
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# [09:12] <roc> that guy looks interesting
# [09:12] <roc> unfortunately I believe OMS is dead
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# [09:12] <MikeSmith> roc: yeah, have not heard anything about it for a long time now
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# [09:15] <MikeSmith> "Bob Lord is now Manager, Network Security and Infrastructure, at Twitter"
# [09:17] <MikeSmith> "Christian Sejersen has an updated current title: Acting Head of Web Runtime at Nokia"
# [09:17] <MikeSmith> I guess I should read my LinkedIn updates more often
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# [09:29] <asmodai> Any of you have any idea how I can make Firefox stop asking a proxy user/password combination? Even opted to save it, which works, but it still pops up every now and then.
# [09:31] <asmodai> https://support.mozilla.com/en-US/forum/1/596899
# [09:31] <asmodai> Guess that's relevant
# [09:32] <Philip`> You could reconfigure the proxy to not require authentication
# [09:35] <asmodai> Philip`: Fat chance, not in my power.
# [09:35] <asmodai> That toggle did work though.
# [09:36] <asmodai> Now I don't have to hit that password entry box all the timne
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# [09:54] <asmodai> Christ, that still doesn't fix it. Tried some other settings and it is still not giving me a rest.
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# [10:12] * annevk had to think way too long about "Sure" (see WHATWG list)
# [10:13] * annevk still isn't sure it was the right answer
# [10:14] <asmodai> annevk: Maybe maybe was better ;)
# [10:24] <annevk> "sure" seemed better for process and given the data the most sane option
# [10:24] <annevk> but that doesn't mean I like it :)
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# [10:27] <annevk> aah crap
# [10:27] <annevk> GoW3 does not come before April 2011
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# [10:27] * asmodai pats annevk
# [10:27] <asmodai> I can let you play some SC2 on my computer though ;)
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# [11:47] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I am around now
# [11:48] <MikeSmith> I can't remember what I wanted to ask you about now.. :(
# [11:53] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Forgetful old man.
# [12:02] <hendry> we have some spam on the wiki http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MBT_Shoes
# [12:03] <Philip`> Who buys shoes over the internet anyway?
# [12:03] * Philip` can't imagine not going to a shop and trying them on first
# [12:06] <jgraham> Philip`: Apparently it is rather coomon. YOu just order a whole bunch and send back the ones that don't fit
# [12:06] <jgraham> *common
# [12:06] <jgraham> It seems kinda silly to me
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# [12:12] <hendry> jgraham: some people don't have the time or courage to go to a shopping mall
# [12:12] <hendry> added a note about vim+beautifier at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/IDE
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# [12:14] <jgraham> hendry: It seems like sending back all the shoes that dodn't fit would be at least as time consuming as going to a physical shop, especially given that people typically have to visit physical shops occasionally anyway
# [12:15] <jgraham> As for "courage"... How much courage does it take to buy shoes? Even I can manage that and I can be shy to a fault
# [12:16] <hendry> jgraham: i take delivery at work and give stuff to reception for returns, so i don't need to go to a post office
# [12:16] <hendry> jgraham: i find shopping malls host to traumatic experiences
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# [13:04] <Dashiva> http://cowbirdsinlove.com/comics/107/strawman.png
# [13:04] <Dashiva> Not related to anything in particular
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# [13:11] <jgraham> Is that how these debating club/competition things work? I guess that explains why people love to argue by naming fallacies that the other party is supposedly making
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# [13:50] <lazni> http://www.iphone.vinaphone.com.vn/home/ In minefield 3.7a4pre, after the loading bar filled up, I can see the menu but the main content is blankly white
# [13:50] <lazni> I mean the rectangle between the menu and "Tin tức"
# [13:53] <lazni> html5 parser not enabled
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# [13:57] <MikeSmith> lazni: what happens if you do html5.enabled
# [13:58] <lazni> I don't need to restart right? reloading gives the same result
# [14:00] <MikeSmith> I don't think you should need to restart
# [14:01] * MikeSmith tries that page in Safari
# [14:01] <lazni> nvm, it works correctly in safemode
# [14:01] <boblet> seems like people are reading the logs these days. krijnhoetmer.nl is getting really unresponsive
# [14:01] <lazni> a possible cause is ad block plus
# [14:02] <MikeSmith> lazni: hmm, yeah, that might do it
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# [14:02] <MikeSmith> boblet: it's been that way for a while.. krijnh runs it from a Web server installed on his sewing machine
# [14:03] <boblet> I know, but it seems to getting worse
# [14:03] <boblet> Maybe he migrated it to the overlocker
# [14:04] <boblet> try three to load the full day
# [14:04] <lazni> I can see in the ABP blocked items list that a filter is triggered there
# [14:04] <boblet> …made it 7 lines in ;-(
# [14:05] <MikeSmith> boblet: there do seem to be one or more people with too much time on their hands, who go through the logs and highlight all kinds of pointless and uninteresting stuff
# [14:05] <boblet> “pointless and uninteresting”!? but the highlights are where I get all my info from! :O
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# [14:06] <boblet> or are you just commenting on the mustache conversation we were having while you were at the sento? :P
# [14:06] <Dashiva> I move for a reexamination of the proposal of multiple types of 'interesting' flagging
# [14:07] <boblet> Dashiva: interesting facial hair conversations, interesting tangentially related links
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# [14:08] <Dashiva> More along the lines of 'interesting', 'informative', 'funny', 'conspiratory', 'controversial', etc
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# [14:16] <annevk> ooh look, more HTML5 fan sites: http://www.html5video.org/
# [14:17] <annevk> mpilgrim, your explanation on how you view NPAPI vs H264 makes it clear, thanks
# [14:17] <annevk> mpilgrim, while I'm not quite in agreement, I see your point
# [14:17] <hsivonen> lazni: works for me with html5.enable=true and ABP
# [14:18] <lazni> hsivonen: I subscribe to the Vietnamese list+Easy list filters
# [14:18] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: so are Chrome and the Android browser getting rid of NPAPI? to me it seems NaCl&Pepper is even extending it
# [14:19] <lazni> the rule triggered is something about id=banner
# [14:19] <hsivonen> lazni: I see
# [14:19] <lazni> VN list + Easy list is no longer on the ABP rule page I think
# [14:19] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: as I understand it, NaCl&Pepper allows proprietary codecs to be downloaded dynamically, but the permanently-installed browser can be Free Software
# [14:20] <hsivonen> (cue Stallman and non-Free JavaScript programs)
# [14:20] <annevk> what is Pepper?
# [14:20] <annevk> is that the bytecode part of NaCl?
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# [14:20] <hsivonen> annevk: Pepper is a cross-platform NPAPI layer
# [14:21] <hsivonen> annevk: instead of an operating system-specific drawing surface, etc.
# [14:22] <hsivonen> annevk: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Plugins:PlatformIndependentNPAPI
# [14:23] <hsivonen> unless I've completely missed the point, Pepper is about delivering NaCl-based NPAPI plug-ins
# [14:25] * lazni writes a blog as an atom feed, and use client-side XSLT for pretty html
# [14:25] <hsivonen> as for actually discontinuing support for NPAPI, having a common codec for HTML5 video and having swfdec integrated into browsers natively (without Flash video support) would go a long way
# [14:26] <lazni> fx and opera insist on applying their feed subscription interface, regardless of the mimetype
# [14:26] <hsivonen> I was able to browse cluelessly authored restaurant menus just fine with swfdec
# [14:26] <Dashiva> "valid, extended HTML"
# [14:26] <hsivonen> but YouTube blocked swfdec...
# [14:26] <Dashiva> What is valid supposed to mean again?
# [14:26] <lazni> where can I find more about this sniffing?
# [14:27] <lazni> return code of v.nu is 0?
# [14:27] <hsivonen> Dashiva: badge and proprietary extensions at the same time
# [14:27] <hsivonen> lazni: return code?
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# [14:28] <lazni> ISTR v.nu has a gnu error format output, which may have something equivalent
# [14:28] <lazni> but then, you're the author
# [14:28] <Dashiva> Having non-standardized extensions be valid seems sort of like allowing a contradiction in your logic system
# [14:28] <Dashiva> Suddenly everything is valid
# [14:28] <lazni> isn't that the purpose of data-?
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# [14:29] <Dashiva> data is just data, not behavior
# [14:29] <hsivonen> ah. with the GNU format, the return value is an empty string when the content is valid
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# [14:29] <Philip`> Dashiva: It means intentional things are valid and errors are still invalid
# [14:30] <hsivonen> Dashiva: it's a contradiction if you think validation in terms of de jure conformance. It may make sense if you think validation as spell check with a user dictionary.
# [14:30] <Philip`> rather than overloading "invalid" to mean both "errors" and "features that the standardisation group have not incorporated"
# [14:31] <MikeSmith> kudos to you for using client-side XSLT.. some developers appear to be religious objections against it
# [14:31] <Dashiva> hsivonen: So I'll extend my dictionary with Japanese and release a book written in "extended English"
# [14:31] <jgraham> mpilgrim: I was surprised you gave such a poor argument that browser vendors should put up and shut up about H.264. An argument of "If you do unpleasant thing X you lose all right to object to being required to do unplesant thing Y" is a total non-sequiter
# [14:31] <hsivonen> I don't like using FBML as an example in DE discussions when (AFAICT) Facebook reps haven't asked for spec changes and some DE proposals would break Facebook in Firefox if implemented
# [14:32] <lazni> ISTR the starcraft2.com website use client-side XSLT
# [14:32] <hsivonen> Dashiva: for example. Though it's more conventional to extend English with French or Spanish
# [14:32] <Dashiva> But that's no longer English
# [14:33] <MikeSmith> boblet: sorry to have missed out on the mustache discussion..
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# [14:33] <hsivonen> Dashiva: is http://www.flickr.com/photos/hsivonen/190450883/ English?
# [14:33] <hsivonen> alt="Home of the Kosher Style Burrito"
# [14:33] <boblet> MikeSmith: don’t worry, you too can reload the relevant log page 4 times to read it
# [14:34] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Webster says yes
# [14:34] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I guess the extensions have been adopted to the spec already.
# [14:35] <Dashiva> But that's a red herring, since it's only not soon-to-be-formalized extensions
# [14:35] <Dashiva> There's also the "I want to make up stuff without anyone telling me it's stupid, and it should still be valid"
# [14:35] <Philip`> boblet: Feel free to set up your own version of the logs page :-)
# [14:35] * Philip` can probably supply raw log files if needed
# [14:36] <hsivonen> Dashiva: yes, there's the use case of BigCos selling stuff to governments and not wanting to be told their stuff is non-standard
# [14:36] <boblet> Philip`: c’mon! the peanut gallery is for ppl to moan about free stuff they couldn’t possibly recreate themselves
# [14:36] <Dashiva> And that's introducing the contradiction
# [14:36] <hsivonen> Dashiva: indeed
# [14:36] <Philip`> It shouldn't be hard to recreate a version without all the features
# [14:36] <Dashiva> Philip`: sounds useful :P
# [14:36] <Philip`> and the features are presumably what make it slow
# [14:37] <hsivonen> Dashiva: good luck getting anyone whose actual use case that is to admit it
# [14:37] <lazni> yeah, http://starcraft2.com/faq.xml is xhtml, then modified by XSLT for some unfathomable purpose
# [14:37] <boblet> Philip`: I thought the running it on a sewing machine part was what made it slow ;-)
# [14:37] <Philip`> I guess most people would be happy with a static slightly-formatted HTML version of the logs split by day and updated every few minutes, and nothing fancier
# [14:37] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Indeed, no hopes there. But we _can_ make them try to state an alternative acceptable use case
# [14:38] <lazni> but the XSLT wouldn't be used because the page is text/html
# [14:38] <Dashiva> Philip`: I suppose the personalization (nick color etc) makes it impossible to cache
# [14:38] <boblet> Dashiva: surely that’s JS-able, no?
# [14:39] <Dashiva> Sure
# [14:39] <Dashiva> If you don't mind being a script-requiring fascist
# [14:39] * lazni sees the effect of opera turbo clearly on starcraft2.com, all pixelly
# [14:40] <boblet> heh
# [14:40] <Dashiva> I could make a log page for fun, but I wouldn't want to have to support it
# [14:40] <Dashiva> So making one would just make one party sad
# [14:41] <Philip`> Could the personalisation be done with just CSS, in case people are silly and object to JS?
# [14:42] <Dashiva> I suppose you could add class=nickname to every <span>nickname</span>, but that would bloat the page a lot for little (or no) gain
# [14:43] <Philip`> The gain would be cachability
# [14:43] <Philip`> and the avoidance of extreme slowness
# [14:45] <Philip`> although doing it in JS would have those benefits and would also be more efficient and more powerful and easier
# [14:45] <Philip`> Things like the current logs' index page with personalised line counts couldn't be done client-side, though
# [14:46] <Philip`> and I'd expect that's pretty hard on performance
# [14:46] <Dashiva> I don't think it's a log viewer's job to tell you how popular you are :)
# [14:47] <Philip`> I guess it's useful to see if somebody addressed queries to you while you were offline
# [14:47] <Philip`> (if you were offline for the entire day)
# [14:47] <Philip`> (and if you're not just going to read all the logs anyway)
# [14:47] <boblet> surely the server just needs to be upgraded from a sewing machine to say a networked TV
# [14:48] <boblet> or maybe one of those really fancy high-end clock radios
# [14:48] <Dashiva> If you got the swine flu vaccine, it could run on the microchips in your bloodstream
# [14:48] <boblet> mmm bacon and chips
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# [15:10] <Dashiva> hsivonen: What do you mean when you called Stroustrup's attitude Hixie-ish, by the way?
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# [15:16] <no_mind> is canvas element a form of image ?
# [15:17] <no_mind> type of image*
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# [15:17] <Philip`> It has no relation to the <img> element, but it can be thought of as a kind of programmable dynamic <img>
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# [15:33] <hsivonen> Dashiva: backwards compat, trying to push little new things to make things better in the future nonetheless, focus on the stuff people actually use to do stuff even if it looks ugly to the purists
# [15:33] <hsivonen> Dashiva: also avoidance of vendor lock-in
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# [15:54] <no_mind> Philip`, then why does firefox gives you a "View image" and "Save image" options on right clicking a canvas element ? This will make user think that canvas element is same as image
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# [17:12] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I recently bought new boots online and regretted it. Had to return two pairs before getting the right size, and still not quite sure they're the right size. I buy shoes online if they're the exact same type of shoe that I already have but my current pair has just worn on.
# [17:14] <jgraham> AryehGregor: What type of boots?
# [17:14] <AryehGregor> I dunno, what types are there?
# [17:16] <jgraham> Well I mean like walking boots or ordinary shoe-like boots or...
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# [17:17] <AryehGregor> Well, I do plan to put them on my feet, and hopefully walk in them. They're rather taller than shoes.
# [17:18] * jgraham is familiar with the basic distinguishing features of boots
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# [17:19] <jgraham> I was just curious because a lot of outdoors0type shops that otherwise have web stores refuse to sell walking boots online due to the liklihood of a poor fit
# [17:20] <AryehGregor> It was from Muck Boots.
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# [17:35] <Philip`> no_mind: Because those are useful features for users when they see something on the screen that they want to save
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# [17:43] <no_mind> hmm
# [17:43] <no_mind> I thought canvas cannot be saved
# [17:43] <Dashiva> Then what would the 'save image' do?
# [17:43] <Philip`> Firefox demonstrates it can :-)
# [17:44] <no_mind> what if I want to present some stuff that I dont want to be saved
# [17:44] <no_mind> specially with copyrighted photographs
# [17:44] <Philip`> You can't
# [17:44] <Philip`> The user could just take a screenshot anyway
# [17:45] <Dashiva> Or the user could use toDataUrl() with a bookmarklet and save that
# [17:45] <Philip`> You could prevent that by drawing a different-origin image onto the canvas
# [17:47] <Dashiva> The user could use a firefox extension to override that? :)
# [17:48] <Philip`> Sure
# [17:49] <Philip`> They could modify the browser source code to save all images, too
# [17:49] <no_mind> well the average users is not taht much talented
# [17:49] <Philip`> or they could just grab the photo when you were sending it over the network to the page's scripts
# [17:50] <Philip`> If you just want to stop average users right-clicking on the canvas, you could stick a <div style=opacity:0> in front of it or something
# [17:50] <no_mind> good idea
# [17:51] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: (a) if you reopen NEEDSINFO bugs, you should probably be adding some info
# [17:51] * Philip` has encountered one irritating site that circumvents Opera's ad blocking feature by putting a transparent.gif in front of the ad, so clicking on it just stops the transparent image from rendering
# [17:51] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: (b) it's not good to reopen bugs that are tagged TrackerISsue
# [17:52] <Philip`> and the ad itself is a CSS background-image, so if you disable CSS in Opera (in an attempt to stop the overlaying of elements) then it disappears and you can't click it
# [17:54] <jgraham> no_mind: Not really a good idea
# [17:54] <no_mind> why
# [17:55] <jgraham> Because it seems like a lame, ineffective, technical solution to something that is mostly a non-problem
# [17:55] <jgraham> Anyone sufficiently determined can download your content anyway
# [17:55] <no_mind> ok let me explain my problem
# [17:56] <no_mind> I have a client who uses flash to create slideshows and they want to move away from flash
# [17:56] <no_mind> the single point stopping them is the fact that users cannot download the images inside the flash
# [17:56] <AryehGregor> So just use a transparent overlay.
# [17:56] <no_mind> with html plus js based slideshow, a user can download individual images
# [17:57] <AryehGregor> That's what YouTube uses in its HTML5 video, I think.
# [17:57] <AryehGregor> It will stop basic right-clicking.
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# [17:57] <Philip`> Won't help with advanced right-clicking, but that takes years of practice
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# [17:58] <jgraham> no_mind: There are at least a variety of tools on the internet that claim to allow images to be extracted from flash
# [17:58] <AryehGregor> jgraham, his client doesn't know that.
# [17:58] <AryehGregor> :)
# [17:58] <Philip`> The problem is how to provide the illusion of protection, not how to actually provide protection that works
# [17:58] <no_mind> neither my client nor his clients know this :)
# [17:59] <jgraham> Well by all means do the transparent overlay thing if it is the only way to get paid
# [17:59] <no_mind> I was thinking of streaming the image and receiving it in a JS variable to draw the image on a canvas element
# [18:00] <AryehGregor> Overly complicated.
# [18:00] <Philip`> And slow
# [18:00] <jgraham> And less effective even than the transparent overlay
# [18:00] <no_mind> that works in most browsers except FF, which gives a "Save image" option
# [18:00] <Philip`> If you want to lie to your clients about protection, you might as well not make it significantly technically inferior too :-)
# [18:00] <AryehGregor> Relatively position the image's container, stick in a <div style="z-index: 1; left: 0; top: 0; right: 0; bottom: 0">.
# [18:00] <AryehGregor> Er, and add position: absolute.
# [18:01] <AryehGregor> To the div's style.
# [18:01] <AryehGregor> Or whatever, something like that.
# [18:01] <AryehGregor> Maybe you need opacity: 0 too.
# [18:01] <no_mind> AryehGregor, that I know how to do :)
# [18:01] <jgraham> And hope that no one who wants to download the pictures has hear of firebug/web inspector/dragonfly
# [18:01] <jgraham> *heard
# [18:01] <AryehGregor> jgraham, no, he doesn't care about that. All that matters is his client hasn't heard of that.
# [18:01] <AryehGregor> If he has, then show him a tool that extracts the images from Flash just as easily.
# [18:02] <jgraham> Well sure
# [18:02] <AryehGregor> This is about the "garden fence" kind of thing, anyway. If most people don't know how to do it, that's probably good enough for the client.
# [18:03] <Philip`> Depends on what you're trying to prevent
# [18:03] <Philip`> If your goal is to stop people breaking into your house, a garden fence is useless even if most people will respect it
# [18:03] <jgraham> Possibly most people aren't actually interested in downloading the content and using it in some bad way anyway
# [18:03] <AryehGregor> Yes, so really this is all just a game of pleasing the client.
# [18:03] <AryehGregor> Not much to discuss.
# [18:03] <annevk> "I'll have a relationship of some kind with the magazine until I'm an old web coot telling young people about how we edited our HTML by hand rather than having our digital sex pony avatars do it for us in our Farmbooks." -- http://www.theawl.com/2010/03/a-conversation-with-paul-ford-the-now-former-web-editor-of-harpers-magazine
# [18:03] <annevk> via markp
# [18:04] <annevk> or mpilgrim
# [18:04] <annevk> or some such
# [18:04] <no_mind> well in case of my client he had 3 incidents in last one year where people have just right-click and saved images to use them in other places and not give him credits
# [18:04] <jgraham> Wht type of conetent is it?
# [18:04] <jgraham> *content
# [18:04] <no_mind> mostly images and some text with images
# [18:05] <jgraham> What type of images?
# [18:05] <no_mind> Monuments, people, some interesting photography tricks
# [18:05] <jgraham> Like, is it more effective just to put a watermark in the image itself?
# [18:05] <jgraham> For photography it probably is
# [18:06] <AryehGregor> Surely watermarks are more obnoxious than a transparent div overaly.
# [18:06] <AryehGregor> overlay.
# [18:06] <no_mind> putting watermark spoils the whole feel
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# [18:06] <no_mind> these people are were specific about the overall feel of the work.
# [18:06] <no_mind> that is why he switched to flash
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# [18:07] <jgraham> Depends how you do it really, but they are typically more effective against people who are determined enough to actually download an image and use it on their own site
# [18:07] <jgraham> (I expect)
# [18:07] <no_mind> then I showed him step by step replacement of all his requirements in HTML5, JS and SVG
# [18:07] <no_mind> to which he agrees but is stuck on this one point
# [18:07] <no_mind> those who are determined cant be stopped :)
# [18:08] <no_mind> but the probability is fairly low
# [18:09] <AryehGregor> jgraham, if there are three cases in the last year, a transparent overlay is probably enough to stop them all with fairly good probability.
# [18:09] <AryehGregor> It will stop most people.
# [18:09] <jgraham> Well the probability of someone taking clearly-copyrighted work and assuming they can use it on their own site without permission or reprecussions is quite low to start with
# [18:10] <jgraham> I would have thought that the sort of people who were prepared to do this at all were also the sort of people that would be prepared to work around a trivial technical barrier
# [18:10] <jgraham> But I might be wrong
# [18:11] <AryehGregor> To most people, trivial technical barriers are not trivial.
# [18:12] <AryehGregor> My mother is an art historian. She downloads out-of-copyright images all the time from websites to use in her lectures.
# [18:12] <jgraham> If these people are putting things on the web there is a higher than usual possibility they have some understanding of how the web works
# [18:12] <AryehGregor> But if right-clicking doesn't work, she has to call me in. Or, more likely, give up, since I'm not going to do some complicated thing with Firebug for dozens of images in a row.
# [18:12] <AryehGregor> It's amazingly easy to create a website these days.
# [18:12] <no_mind> AryehGregor, exactly
# [18:13] <AryehGregor> My mother puts things up on her website by using folders that my brother and I have carefully set up to automatically log in via FTP but behave just like a normal directory.
# [18:13] <no_mind> and people do not care about copyright as much as we expect them to be. In many cases people are not shy to hotlink images from other websites as their own
# [18:13] <AryehGregor> She can't create HTML pages, but she puts up images and slideshows and things like that.
# [18:16] <gsnedders> But does circumventing it fall under the circumventing DRM clause in the DCMA?
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> Who knows? Ask a lawyer.
# [18:16] <gsnedders> If it does, then we would be adding DRM to HTML, which seems bad.
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> What?
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> We're not adding anything to HTML.
# [18:16] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Most Swedish lawyers won't know.
# [18:16] * gsnedders has just seen fragments of this
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> Nor will most non-lawyers, which is what this channel is made up of.
# [18:17] <gsnedders> I don't know :P
# [18:17] <no_mind> is DCMA accepted in Sweeden ?
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> Nor will most American lawyers, unless they're assigned to research it and come up with an answer, and that answer might end up being "depends" or "maybe".
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> no_mind, no, the DMCA is an American law.
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> The EUCD is similar, but I can't be bothered figuring out if Sweden is in the EU and/or has implemented it.
# [18:18] <ment> maybe we all get DCMA through ACTA soon
# [18:18] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, we were just talking about some guy who used Flash to do a slideshow so people couldn't take his images, and we were telling him to use a transparent div overlay to stop it in HTML/CSS.
# [18:18] <AryehGregor> I've seen a lot of FUD about ACTA, but nothing that I'm actually worried about.
# [18:18] <AryehGregor> These things need to be passed by legislatures before they do anything, you know.
# [18:18] <no_mind> Seeden is in EU, I know it sitting in India :p
# [18:18] <AryehGregor> Lots of treaties that executives have negotiated but legislatures didn't ratify.
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> The League of Nations and the Kyoto Protocol are two US examples.
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> And before it's passed by legislatures, it needs to be made public, so everyone will have a chance to review it and object at some point. No need to fret now when we don't know anything about it.
# [18:19] <no_mind> The problem is that such treaties can be used in proxy even if legislature did not ratify them
# [18:20] <AryehGregor> What do you mean?
# [18:20] <no_mind> We have seen the case of fairplay in India. Where Apple and RIAA managed to take the host to court, even though US patents do not apply in India
# [18:21] <AryehGregor> Well, you can always take someone to court. Did they win?
# [18:21] <no_mind> though the host backed out later and hosting was moved to some other place
# [18:21] <AryehGregor> You can try to get judgments in one country enforced in another, but I'm not clear on what the procedure is.
# [18:22] <no_mind> Well in India they wont have managed to force the judgement. Anti software patents lobby is pretty strong here
# [18:22] <no_mind> but it was enough to scare other hosts
# [18:22] <AryehGregor> For obvious reasons. :)
# [18:23] <AryehGregor> Poorer countries are going to be in favor of lax IP rights, because Western IP is usually priced for Westerners. Whereas rich countries will be in favor of strong international IP for the same reason.
# [18:24] <Dashiva> Poorer countries also often have the advantage of not having any legacy laws that snuck in before anyone realized what a stupid idea software patents was
# [18:24] <no_mind> well India favors IP but not software patents
# [18:25] <no_mind> copyright laws and trademark laws are pretty strong here, in terms of enforcement
# [18:25] <no_mind> even patents
# [18:25] <no_mind> but software patents and business patents are a strict no-no
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> So people buy legitimate copies of Windows from Microsoft, for how much money?
# [18:27] <no_mind> starts from about INR 7000/- roughly (USD 150)
# [18:27] <no_mind> though piracy of windows is as rampant as any Asian country
# [18:28] <AryehGregor> And people pay that rather than pirating? I've heard of other countries (Russia, etc.) that you can get pirated Windows all over the place on the street.
# [18:28] <no_mind> yes you do get pirated windows here, easily
# [18:28] <AryehGregor> I guess "strongly enforced" is relative. Richer countries can inevitably pay for more enforcement.
# [18:28] <no_mind> but you are caught easily too
# [18:29] <no_mind> AryehGregor, Enforcement depends on comapny too. While it is difficult to find and survive with pirated Adobe products, it is easy to do this with Microsoft
# [18:30] <no_mind> Adobe follows stricter policies
# [18:30] <no_mind> while Microsoft is very laxed here. They wait for 2-4 years before filing a case
# [18:30] <no_mind> when the person is totally dependent on windows
# [18:31] <no_mind> then they come threatening, pay us the license fee or we will file a complaint. Piracy happens to be a non-bailable offence with minimum of 3 years imprisonment
# [18:32] <AryehGregor> Interesting. In the US you can only get fined, I think, not imprisoned, unless you're distributing.
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# [18:33] <no_mind> here if a complaint is filed, it will be minimum of 2 months before you get a bail. And if out of court settlement happens fine else you get fine plus imprisonment
# [18:33] <AryehGregor> Fascinating.
# [18:33] <no_mind> there seems to be a nexus here because what I have noticed that distributors always get away while user suffers
# [18:33] <AryehGregor> Probably because it's good business for MS to hook people on Windows when it looks like it's free.
# [18:34] <AryehGregor> Glad I use Linux.
# [18:34] <no_mind> and since M$ sales in India have started to fall, they are imposing anti piracy measures even in smaller cities
# [18:34] * gsnedders wonders about the HTC Legend
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# [18:46] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: apologies about bug 7539
# [18:46] <MikeSmith> that change was a mistake
# [18:46] <MikeSmith> about the others, I will try to go back in today and add more info for those
# [18:47] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I put the ones that had TrackerIssue back in VERIFIED
# [18:47] <MikeSmith> oh.. I didn't know I'd done that for others than 7539
# [18:47] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: if there are any that the TF intended to "de-escalate" (or whatever) then please re-reopen and remove TrackerIssue so they're not in an inconsistent stte
# [18:47] <MikeSmith> OK
# [18:48] * MikeSmith looks back again at bugmail
# [18:48] <othermaciej> I got bugzilla mail about a bunch of them and moved them back
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# [18:52] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, I see those now too
# [18:52] <MikeSmith> sorry for muffing that up
# [18:52] <MikeSmith> I will avoid doing that again
# [18:53] <othermaciej> thanks, it seems to be a common mistake, so it's good to raise awareness
# [18:54] <MikeSmith> well, at least I should know better.. problem was I was changing those during the last 10 minutes of the a11y telcon and wasn't really looking at them carefully
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# [19:34] <Philip`> What's the appropriate <source type> for MP3s?
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# [19:43] <othermaciej> audio/mp3 ?
# [19:47] <mpilgrim> AFAICT, "distributed extensibility" is defined as "whatever HTML5 doesn't have yet"
# [19:47] <Dashiva> And "whatever HTML5 doesn't have anymore" :)
# [19:47] <AryehGregor> Well, that's why it's distributed.
# [19:47] <AryehGregor> If HTML5 had it, it would be centralized, right?
# [19:47] <mpilgrim> the contrapositive is also true -- if it is determined that a use case can be solved with something already in HTML5 (like "data-*" attributes), then the use case is automatically NOT "distributed extensibility"
# [19:48] <mpilgrim> once i realized this, the ongoing discussions about ISSUE-41 made much more sense to me
# [19:49] <Philip`> othermaciej: Without any crazy codecs= or profiles or anything? That seems far too easy
# [19:49] <Philip`> Maybe I should switch to AAC so that it satisfies my expected level of complexity
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# [19:50] <Philip`> Any guesses as to whether IE9 will support MP3 and/or AAC?
# [19:51] * Philip` assumes at least the latter, since it goes along with H.264
# [19:56] <mpilgrim> Philip`: MS claimed to have the Youtube HTML5 beta working, so whatever audio codec is used in those videos is certainly supported
# [19:56] <mpilgrim> (or maybe codecs, plural)
# [19:57] <mpilgrim> i don't actually know which codecs those are, but presumably you could violate the youtube terms of service, download a video, and check
# [19:58] <mpilgrim> as a google employee, i can not actually recommend any tools for this purpose, but i'm told we still have a search engine that might help you
# [19:58] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/03/16/html5-hardware-accelerated-first-ie9-platform-preview-available-for-developers.aspx - "Not WMV. IE9 supports MP4 h.264 video, MP3 or AAC audio"
# [19:59] <Philip`> I guess that answers it without me having to risk being sued by Google
# [20:00] <Philip`> I wouldn't dare search for YouTube downloading tools, the Google central intelligence will surely detect it and scan my emails and consider me a subversive
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# [20:02] <daedb_> No wmv? I figured they'd at least allow that as an option alongside h264...
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# [20:18] <Philip`> daedb_: I certainly won't complain if they promote non-proprietary standards instead of WMV :-)
# [20:19] <Philip`> It's almost as if they wanted to encourage interoperability
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# [21:14] <AryehGregor> Who was that Mozilla person who wrote a blog post about how H.264 is patented outside of the US?
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# [21:14] <AryehGregor> Ah, bzbarsky.
# [21:14] * AryehGregor should Google before asking
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# Session Close: Fri Mar 19 00:00:00 2010

The end :)