/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 02 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: Since it took you 1.5 hours to come up with that response I would hardly call it straight away
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  26. # [01:18] <dglazkov> wicked
  27. # [01:20] <dglazkov> I met annevk, fantasai, hakon, jens, and arron in one day.
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  30. # [01:27] <Hixie> hm, looks like something is checking in changes under me
  31. # [01:27] <Hixie> it's causing my w3c-html upload script to fail
  32. # [01:31] <JonathanNeal> hey all
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  41. # [02:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: did you figure out the problem?
  42. # [02:35] <othermaciej> I see a bunch of commits from mike marked [updated by splitter]
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  50. # [02:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: your temporary workaround for the bug in anolis is affecting unrelated parts of the spec
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  52. # [02:40] <Hixie> it's also affecting my checking in, but i've worked around that by just forcing the checkin each time
  53. # [02:40] <Hixie> in my script
  54. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK, I'll turn it off
  55. # [02:41] <Hixie> well it's not really causing me any problems at this point
  56. # [02:42] <Hixie> just thought you should know :-)
  57. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> OK
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  59. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> so I guess I'll leave it on for now, and try to see if I can refine it so that it doesn't affect any other part of the spec
  60. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> maybe I should instead have my makefile for the multipage build just drop the whole named-character-references table for now
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  62. # [02:46] <Hixie> really we just need anolis fixed :-)
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  64. # [02:48] <MikeSmith> strangely enough, I running the multipage build script with the workaround removed, but I'm not getting the errors I was getting before
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  67. # [02:56] <myakura> Hixie: per 2.2.2 Extensibility it follows vendor-specific attributes start with an underscore, but the examples shown above all start with a dash...
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  84. # [03:39] <Hixie> man, lots of feature requests in this batch of bugs
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  108. # [04:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I tweaked my script to just have the multipage build remove the whole named-character-references table
  109. # [04:54] <MikeSmith> and also fixed it so that I think you won't need to force your commit
  110. # [04:55] <MikeSmith> you probably will need to force it the next time you commit
  111. # [04:55] <MikeSmith> but I think you won't need to after that
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  115. # [05:37] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cool
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  124. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: copy-paste error in you r4941 commit
  125. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4940&to=4941
  126. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> + <dt><dfn title="attr-body-margintop"><code>marginheight</code></dfn> on <code>body</code> elements</dt>
  127. # [06:19] <Hixie> i'll file a bug thanks
  128. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> hai
  129. # [06:23] <rjett> Is this the correct place to ask a question about an issue I've run in to when tinkering with Web Sockets?
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  132. # [06:34] <Hixie> rjett: sure
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  134. # [06:35] <rjett> I've been having trouble getting my client to connect to my server from my University, but it works everywhere else
  135. # [06:35] <rjett> Shouldn't Web Sockets get passed any firewall issues?
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  138. # [06:50] <Hixie> rjett: which port?
  139. # [06:52] <rjett> for the Web Socket? I'm using 12345...
  140. # [06:52] <Hixie> can you telnet to that port from your university network?
  141. # [06:52] <rjett> I couldn't ping my server from the University, but I could access web pages from the server
  142. # [06:55] <rjett> I did not try to telnet to that port
  143. # [06:57] <Hixie> sounds like you have a proxy that's blocking outgoing connections
  144. # [06:57] <Hixie> i recommend either looking to see if you can use a SOCKS proxy, assuming your browser supports that, or using port 443 and TLS-encrypting the websocket connection
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  146. # [06:58] <Hixie> shepazutoo: yt?
  147. # [07:01] <rjett> Thanks a lot. I really appreciate your help. :)
  148. # [07:01] <Hixie> np
  149. # [07:01] <Hixie> i expect this to be a common problem
  150. # [07:02] <rjett> From what I had read I was under the impression that Web Sockets would magically handle these kinds of issues
  151. # [07:02] <Hixie> sadly not
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  155. # [07:33] <wirepair> quick question, that validator site is a neat idea, but aren't you worried about it getting abused?
  156. # [07:33] <wirepair> the 'address' option in particular
  157. # [07:35] <Hixie> validator site?
  158. # [07:35] <wirepair> http://html5.validator.nu
  159. # [07:35] <wirepair> i was under the impression some one here ran it
  160. # [07:35] <Hixie> abused how?
  161. # [07:35] <wirepair> as in i can make it scan any site i want
  162. # [07:36] <Hixie> how is that different than, say, validator.w3.org?
  163. # [07:36] <wirepair> it's not
  164. # [07:36] <wirepair> i could use that too ;>
  165. # [07:38] <wirepair> but if you're not worried about people using it as an open proxy and attacking other sites, then don't worry about it ;>
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  167. # [07:44] <Hixie> i don't really see how they could attack other sites
  168. # [07:49] <wirepair> well, i could easily script up a tool that would point it at a site
  169. # [07:49] <wirepair> then look for common vulnerabilities, such as sql injection
  170. # [07:50] <wirepair> and since i can see the source of the responses
  171. # [07:50] <wirepair> i can just parse out the response
  172. # [07:51] <wirepair> and all of the attacks would look like they are coming from the validator, not from the attacker
  173. # [08:00] <Hixie> i expect henri has set some rate-limiting on the validator
  174. # [08:03] <wirepair> yeah that or some form of a captcha would be good
  175. # [08:04] <wirepair> but yeah i was just curious if anyone thought about it before, so i brought it up.
  176. # [08:07] <Hixie> hsivonen is the guy who runs it, so he's the one to ask
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  178. # [08:11] <wirepair> will do, thanks
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  196. # [09:03] <boblet> Hixie: you there?
  197. # [09:03] <Hixie> yeah
  198. # [09:04] <Hixie> notwithstanding the weird <wbr> interaction with nowrap, is it the same as ZWSP?
  199. # [09:04] <Hixie> anyone know?
  200. # [09:04] <boblet> re: Ruby, I noticed the w3 ruby spec uses annotating WWW with World Wide Web as an example. I’m wondering how using ruby like that relates to the abbr element
  201. # [09:04] <Hixie> relates how?
  202. # [09:04] <boblet> http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/
  203. # [09:05] <Hixie> i mean, they're similar... how do you mean?
  204. # [09:05] <Hixie> ruby renders the annotation by default and abbr doesn't, is the main difference
  205. # [09:05] <boblet> well, if you’re adding ruby to an abbreviation, then I’m guessing that you could also wrap the ruby word in abbr
  206. # [09:06] <boblet> but the abbr title text would duplicate the rt text, so maybe not necessary
  207. # [09:08] <boblet> abbr and ruby seem pretty similar, so I guess I’m wondering if there’s any difference apart from the way they display the annotation
  208. # [09:09] <JonathanNeal> hey all
  209. # [09:09] <JonathanNeal> hi Hixie
  210. # [09:10] <boblet> finally since complex ruby didn’t make it in, would using a title on abbr or span be a way to add the second term
  211. # [09:10] <boblet> hey JonathanNeal
  212. # [09:10] <Hixie> boblet: well there's lots of differences, e.g. they use different element names, and i wouldn't recommend using <abbr> for annotating bopomofo readings... dunno what to tell you
  213. # [09:10] <Hixie> hey JonathanNeal
  214. # [09:11] <JonathanNeal> hey boblet
  215. # [09:11] <Hixie> boblet: what is the complex ruby example you want to do?
  216. # [09:11] <JonathanNeal> For a while I thought no one could read my messages. Yay, I exist.
  217. # [09:11] <boblet> Hixie: ok, I’ll mock up some code and ping you for feedback later
  218. # [09:12] <Hixie> the amount of work required to add a new element to the spec is inane
  219. # [09:12] <boblet> Hixie: writing an article on it, so referring to the W3 Ruby doc example of Japanese with furigana and romaji
  220. # [09:12] <Hixie> i really need to work on this
  221. # [09:12] <Hixie> boblet: ah
  222. # [09:12] <JonathanNeal> What element are you thinking of adding?
  223. # [09:12] <boblet> JonathanNeal: it’s the nsfw element
  224. # [09:13] <boblet> hixie is trying to sneak it in while no one is looking ;-)
  225. # [09:13] <Hixie> trying to turn <wbr> from an obsolete elements into a valid element
  226. # [09:13] <Hixie> it's proving quitethe tedious task
  227. # [09:14] <Hixie> k i think i have it.
  228. # [09:14] * Hixie regens
  229. # [09:14] <JonathanNeal> Shouldn't that be left to a style?
  230. # [09:14] <JonathanNeal> How is <wbr> meaningful as information?
  231. # [09:15] <Hixie> you can't really do it in style
  232. # [09:16] <boblet> Hixie: btw, what was the reason complex ruby was dropped? too complex for not enough use cases?
  233. # [09:17] <Hixie> it wasn't dropped
  234. # [09:17] <Hixie> it was just never added
  235. # [09:17] <boblet> or just deferred til later?
  236. # [09:17] <Hixie> it was not added because IE didn't do it
  237. # [09:17] <Hixie> HTML5's ruby is a reverse engineering of IE's, I didn't pay much attention to the ruby spec
  238. # [09:17] <boblet> dropped meaning it was specced in the ruby spec
  239. # [09:17] <boblet> aah
  240. # [09:18] <boblet> any thoughts of adding it later? say post-HTML5?
  241. # [09:18] <Hixie> are there real use cases for it?
  242. # [09:19] <Hixie> and can those use cases not be handled by simply nesting two rubys in each other?
  243. # [09:19] <Hixie> (i don't know the answers to these questions)
  244. # [09:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: I did check what at least some sites use <nobr> for
  245. # [09:20] <othermaciej> Hixie: the only one I recall offhand is YouTube, which uses it for the username of the person uploading a video in some screens, presumably because it is atomic and must not be broken across lines, even if it has a space
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  247. # [09:20] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: the main use case is the one shown by the example in the spec: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-wbr-element
  248. # [09:20] <boblet> Hixie: I’ve got some introductory Japanese textbooks that do the kanji with kana and English. will mock up some nested ones and see how I go
  249. # [09:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: sounds like a stylistic concern. If my screen is small, I'd want it to wrap.
  250. # [09:20] <boblet> prolly not enough use cases to justify complexity
  251. # [09:20] <JonathanNeal> Hixie, checking
  252. # [09:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, I will look around and see if I find any real uses that seem more semantic
  253. # [09:21] <Hixie> boblet: yeah it's a hard call, when there are valid use cases but they are rare... it might just be something to do in a future version, or it might be something we never bother with because it's not that common, or it might be something that there are acceptable workarounds for (like nesting rubys). I'd love to see mockups or photos of real use cases though.
  254. # [09:22] <JonathanNeal> Weeeeird
  255. # [09:22] <JonathanNeal> Niche
  256. # [09:22] <Hixie> it is indeed niche, much like <br>
  257. # [09:23] <Hixie> but since it's already implemented and widely included in tutorials already, it's almost free to support
  258. # [09:23] <Hixie> so since there's a use case, why not
  259. # [09:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: do you recall what's partial about the acceptance on <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9350> (the <wbr> bug)?
  260. # [09:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: wondering if I should check anything before I mark it CLOSED
  261. # [09:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: just the parenthetical, i think
  262. # [09:23] <boblet> Hixie: k. also thinking that for non-bopomofo use ruby is almost like a phrase version of small with pre-set styling (“side comments”)
  263. # [09:24] <Hixie> boblet: yeah. it's mostly intended for the CJK typographical ruby thing, the other uses are somewhat esoteric.
  264. # [09:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: i.e. partial acceptance of the argument, not of the change.
  265. # [09:25] <boblet> I was somewhat surprised by the WWW example
  266. # [09:25] <boblet> (in W3 Ruby)
  267. # [09:25] <Hixie> yeah me too to be honest
  268. # [09:25] <Hixie> you'll notice the html5 spec doesn't show any such examples
  269. # [09:25] <Hixie> :-)
  270. # [09:25] <othermaciej> Hixie: I would consider that fully accepted, but fine by me either way
  271. # [09:25] <boblet> heh
  272. # [09:26] <boblet> that’s what made me wonder if such examples were legit
  273. # [09:26] <Hixie> othermaciej: to be perfectly honest i marked it partially accepted because i have two buttons, one that says "accepted" and prefills the rationale as concuring with the reporter, and one that says "partially accepted" and leaves the rationale blank, and so since i wanted to write a more detailed rationale, i clicked the second one to save me the selecting the rationale and replacing it :-P
  274. # [09:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: lol
  275. # [09:27] <Hixie> boblet: yeah, i dunno. might be worth asking richard ishida or other people more expert in that area what they think.
  276. # [09:28] <boblet> will do
  277. # [09:43] <JonathanNeal> Oh man ... PeeWee Herman makes me smile.
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  279. # [09:53] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith has quit
  280. # [09:53] <JonathanNeal> There goes HTML5.
  281. # [09:53] <othermaciej> umm, just from IRC
  282. # [09:56] <JonathanNeal> There goes IRC.
  283. # [09:56] <kennyluck> He is now sleeping :)
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  285. # [09:57] <JonathanNeal> There goes being awake.
  286. # [09:57] <Bolkonskij> good morning
  287. # [09:57] <JonathanNeal> There goes it being night.
  288. # [09:57] <Bolkonskij> Heh
  289. # [09:58] <JonathanNeal> Next thing you know <wbr> will be back in the spec.
  290. # [09:59] <Hixie> ok time for bed
  291. # [09:59] <Hixie> nn
  292. # [10:00] <JonathanNeal> Night Hixie!
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  333. # [13:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: Well, really, we just need Python to be fixed :
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  374. # [16:59] <annevk> why is http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/#transform-property not comma-separated?
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  377. # [17:13] <JonathanNeal> mornin'
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  392. # [18:11] <JonathanNeal> Hi all!
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  397. # [18:23] <JonathanNeal> Anyone here versed in zen html coding?
  398. # [18:23] <JonathanNeal> Where you write HTML like this: a#skip-to-main-content[href=#main-content]
  399. # [18:23] <boblet> woah, crazy. ruby-position:inline mentioned in #5 Properties Index, but not in #4.1 Ruby Positioning. Wonder how inline differs from right? http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ruby/
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  401. # [18:24] <boblet> JonathanNeal: I saw a screencast once
  402. # [18:25] <JonathanNeal> I just don't get how you move out of a selector.
  403. # [18:26] <JonathanNeal> Say I want to make <div><span></span></div><div><p></p></div>a
  404. # [18:28] <boblet> JonathanNeal: I’m pretty sure they did multiple blocks in the screencast. I’d guess whitespace (extra returns?)
  405. # [18:29] <JonathanNeal> (parens)
  406. # [18:29] <tabatkins> What do you mean by "move out of a selector", JonathanNeal?
  407. # [18:29] <JonathanNeal> "JonathanNeal, This is #html, not #wackyhtmltemplateengines."
  408. # [18:33] <JonathanNeal> tabatkins, I meant I didn't know how to write css that didn't constantly move down the chain
  409. # [18:33] <JonathanNeal> But I realized you can control the scope with parens
  410. # [18:33] <boblet> nice
  411. # [18:34] <tabatkins> JonathanNeal: Um? You can do what with the who now?
  412. # [18:34] <tabatkins> Selectors move down the chain [or forward, with sibling selectors]. That's how they're made.
  413. # [18:34] <tabatkins> Are you trying to abuse selectors to do something crazy?
  414. # [18:39] <JonathanNeal> Yes, and I just did.
  415. # [18:40] <JonathanNeal> You've never heard of zen coding?
  416. # [18:40] <JonathanNeal> html>(head>meta[charset=UTF-8]+title)+body>#main-document>(a#skip-to-main-content[href=#main-content])+(header#banner[role=banner]>(hgroup#heading>(h1.site-title[href=@site-url@]>span)+(h2.page-title[href=@page-url@]>span))+(nav#navigation>h1+ul>li*3))+(div#content>(nav#breadcrumbs>(h1>span)+p)+div#main-content)+footer#content-info[role=content-info]>p
  417. # [18:40] <JonathanNeal> That's a complete html5 page with heading, navigation, breadcrumb, content, footer
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  419. # [18:43] <tabatkins> That looks like a combination of disgusting, unreadable, and ridiculous.
  420. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> Parentheses don't work like that in CSS. That looks like a syntax error to me.
  421. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> If it's meant to be an actual selector.
  422. # [18:46] <annevk> o_O
  423. # [18:46] <lazni1> it works backward from a selector: serialize a tree matching that ext-CSS
  424. # [18:46] <jgraham> I assume it is just supposed to be some way of generating a document structure
  425. # [18:47] <jgraham> That happens to reuse selector synatx, mostly
  426. # [18:47] * boblet is surprised y’all are not up with what the kids are playing with these days
  427. # [18:47] <boblet> it’s just generating html verbiage from quasi-CSS, to cut down on typing
  428. # [18:47] <annevk> boblet, like engineer barbie?
  429. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
  430. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> That seems kind of pointless. It's not that much shorter.
  431. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> Although it's true that the redundancy of closing tags in SGML-ish languages is annoying.
  432. # [18:49] <boblet> annevk: Google is my friend http://www.ni.com/news/releases/april0601.htm ;-)
  433. # [18:49] <jgraham> Reusing selector syntas to make things more readable is an... odd approach
  434. # [18:50] <JonathanNeal> annevk, exactly like engineer barbie
  435. # [18:50] <jgraham> You could of course use sexprs and cut out all the end tags
  436. # [18:50] <tabatkins> I've certainly seen that stuff before. It's just horrifying when extended beyond toy examples.
  437. # [18:50] <boblet> TextMate does most of it for me, so the only appeal of zen coding is prolly making tables
  438. # [18:50] <annevk> boblet, it's not a joke anymore I believe, but it doesn't really matter :)
  439. # [18:51] <boblet> annevk: There’s a computer engineer Barbie, but I can’t find the one with the wrench & grease on her face
  440. # [18:51] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-254-2-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: estellevw)
  441. # [18:52] <JonathanNeal> that would be a strange computer engineer.
  442. # [18:52] <jgraham> Yeah, who keeps a wrench on their face?
  443. # [18:54] <annevk> that is not how it works?
  444. # [18:54] <JonathanNeal> No idea.
  445. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> I use screwdrivers sometimes, but not sure where you'd use a wrench in computing.
  446. # [18:55] <jgraham> In other news I think I have a fix for the spec generation bug
  447. # [18:55] <boblet> Computer Engineer Barbie; “I ran the measurements on my leg-to-torso ratio against the 95 percentile, and the results are … well…”
  448. # [18:56] <jgraham> Nah, computer engineers son't know statistics
  449. # [18:56] <jgraham> *don't
  450. # [18:57] <JonathanNeal> Computer Engineer Barbie: "I will be on vacation tomorrow."
  451. # [19:04] * Joins: seutje (~seutje@drupal.org/user/264148/view)
  452. # [19:05] * JonathanNeal is now known as Fridays
  453. # [19:06] * Fridays is now known as JonathanNeal
  454. # [19:09] <annevk> is anyone able to dig up that email on default styles for form controls on the WHATWG list?
  455. # [19:09] <annevk> someone from Google wrote it I believe
  456. # [19:09] <annevk> (could've been a different list maybe, but I doubt it)
  457. # [19:09] <JonathanNeal> What do we want? Self Closing DIVS and SPANS! When do we want them? NOW!
  458. # [19:10] <annevk> I'm trying to write a few words about HTML5 forms and it'd be nice to include a pointer to that research
  459. # [19:11] <JonathanNeal> html5 forms seems to be the big thing lately, please link me to that when you're done annevk
  460. # [19:11] <JonathanNeal> I'd love to learn what it is you folks are doing to them.
  461. # [19:13] <jgraham> OK, just updated pms.net
  462. # [19:14] <annevk> e.g. stuff like http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-April/019478.html
  463. # [19:15] <seutje> cool, specs have to list every browsers behaviour? I figured it was meant to set a standard and hope browsers will addapt
  464. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> seutje, some specs try that, but they aren't particularly useful to anyone.
  465. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> HTML5 doesn't try to list every browser's behavior, but it tries to match their behavior when it's consistent.
  466. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> Or, at any rate, it doesn't require things that it doesn't think implementers will refuse to do.
  467. # [19:17] <jgraham> It tries to specify a single behaviour that, due to legacy, msut be almost the same as existing deployed behaviour from market leaders
  468. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> At least in cases where sites rely on the behavior.
  469. # [19:21] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.73)
  470. # [19:21] <seutje> I see
  471. # [19:22] <JonathanNeal> It would be cool if Simon's html5-elements page could load up individual pages for those elements, instead of having to #get-there
  472. # [19:22] <seutje> u have a funny way of putting it though
  473. # [19:22] <seutje> "it doesn't think.."
  474. # [19:22] <jgraham> Which is more cases than you can imagine
  475. # [19:22] <seutje> the spec became self-aware!
  476. # [19:23] <jgraham> (well it is hopefully as many cases as we can collectively imagine or there will still be cases with required but undefined behaviour)
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  478. # [19:23] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-wjfuryoncmqomchu)
  479. # [19:23] <jgraham> (so what I really mean is that it is more cases then most people naively imagine)
  480. # [19:23] <jgraham> *than
  481. # [19:25] * gsnedders thought jgraham was going away
  482. # [19:26] <gsnedders> Yet he fixed the bug
  483. # [19:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: Maybe I am using my telekinetic powers to bug fix by remotly typing on someone else's keyboard. Maybe it is your keyboard. Have you been watching for unexpected movements?
  484. # [19:27] <gsnedders> Well, no.
  485. # [19:27] <jgraham> Tell you what, I fixed the bug so you can fix the tests :)
  486. # [19:28] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-254-2-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  487. # [19:30] <gsnedders> However, I need to go and cook now ;P
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  489. # [19:31] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders, master chef
  490. # [19:34] <seutje> hmm, that reminds me, shouldn't forget to eat
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  493. # [19:39] <dglazkov> Hixie: is this the latest? http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/forms.html#the-select-element
  494. # [19:40] <annevk> should be
  495. # [19:40] <dglazkov> Hixie: I want to add a corner case for handling default-selected item in select element
  496. # [19:40] <dglazkov> annevk: http://trac.webkit.org/export/57003/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/forms/select-change-popup-to-listbox.html
  497. # [19:41] <dglazkov> it's a bit weird, but all browsers seem to agree, so probably should be spec'd
  498. # [19:41] <dglazkov> for size == 1, first item is selected by default
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  500. # [19:41] <dglazkov> if no other items are selected
  501. # [19:42] <dglazkov> but then if you change the size, the default selection is preserved.
  502. # [19:42] <dglazkov> annevk: sorry, I did't try on Opera!
  503. # [19:42] <dglazkov> :)
  504. # [19:42] <annevk> no worries
  505. # [19:43] <dglazkov> I wonder how mobile browsers deal with this?
  506. # [19:44] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-xhtml-syntax.html#the-select-element-0
  507. # [19:44] <annevk> defines UI
  508. # [19:44] <annevk> i.e. what to render for various values of size
  509. # [19:46] <annevk> I think it is defined also that the first is selected
  510. # [19:46] <annevk> "If the multiple attribute is absent, whenever there are no option elements in the select element's list of options that have their selectedness set to true, the user agent must set the selectedness of the first option element in the list of options in tree order that is not disabled, if any, to true."
  511. # [19:46] <annevk> (that's in section 4.10 again)
  512. # [19:49] <dglazkov> annevk: great! do you think it's worth outlining the case of preserving the selectedness when the size changes?
  513. # [19:49] <dglazkov> (that's the one I am interested about)
  514. # [19:50] <dglazkov> hang on.. reading this one more time :)
  515. # [19:50] <annevk> I suppose, but that would have to be added to the rendering section; you could add a comment via http://whatwg.org/html#the-select-element-0
  516. # [19:51] <annevk> (if you fill the thing in at the bottom that will file a bug for you)
  517. # [19:52] <annevk> (not sure how many other such liveness things there are though and whether they all need to be pointed out; in general nothing changes unless stated otherwise)
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  519. # [20:00] <JonathanNeal> So what's so bad about allowing xml style self-closing on all elements?
  520. # [20:00] <JonathanNeal> Or on divs and spans?
  521. # [20:01] <Philip`> Legacy compatibility
  522. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, no existing browser parses them that way in text/html.
  523. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> And none can change, because there are pages that use the self-closing syntax but actually rely on the fact that it's not self-closing.
  524. # [20:03] <tabatkins> I've never been a fan of the term "rely" in that context, because it implies they did it on purpose, when really they just did it, then hacked around it until it sort of worked.
  525. # [20:04] <Philip`> Why do you think reliance is purposeful?
  526. # [20:04] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  527. # [20:05] <Philip`> I rely on lots of things that I've never even considered
  528. # [20:05] <dglazkov> annevk: actually I think the spec is perfectly fine now that I read it
  529. # [20:05] <dglazkov> (read it vs. skim through it)
  530. # [20:05] <Philip`> and I can't think of a better word than "rely" for them
  531. # [20:08] <tabatkins> Hmm, not sure what a better term would be.
  532. # [20:12] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-202-159-123.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  533. # [20:15] <annevk> dglazkov, cool
  534. # [20:25] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, so you don't do it so it's more compatible with the old html version?
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  537. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, there is no "old HTML version". HTML5 is the one and only specification to fully specify the details of the text/html format that has been used for years.
  538. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> ok
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  541. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> All these implementation requirements (or variants there of) were a de facto standard for a long time, now they're becoming de jure.
  542. # [20:27] * Quits: scherkus_ (~scherkus@74.125.59.65) (Client Quit)
  543. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Previous HTML specs just didn't say anything about error handling by implementations.
  544. # [20:27] * Joins: scherkus (~scherkus@74.125.59.73)
  545. # [20:28] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.18.241)
  546. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> So <div /> was non-conforming in HTML prior to XHTML, and browsers consistently ignored the "/" (which was allowed by the HTML specs of the time).
  547. # [20:29] <JonathanNeal> So it's just a property of hypertext to not have self-closing elements?
  548. # [20:29] <JonathanNeal> or bi-closing elements?
  549. # [20:29] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  550. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> The closing "/" was not valid in any version of HTML prior to XHTML 1.0.
  551. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> It's an XML feature, not a text/html feature.
  552. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> It would raise validation errors if you used it, which no one did, because it did nothing anyway.
  553. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> XHTML allowed the self-closing feature, but browsers didn't implement it in text/html for compatibility reasons.
  554. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> And still don't, and presumably never will.
  555. # [20:31] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~chatzilla@216.239.45.19)
  556. # [20:32] <Philip`> Actually it wouldn't raise validation errors, because SGML-based HTML4 parsers (e.g. validator.w3.org) consider <br/> to be correct and equivalent to <br>&gt; or whatever it is
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  559. # [20:33] <JonathanNeal> Right, and there is meta and link too
  560. # [20:33] <JonathanNeal> and img
  561. # [20:33] <Philip`> It's never meant "self-closing" in non-X HTML
  562. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> Oh, really? Interesting.
  563. # [20:34] <Philip`> SHORTTAG and NET are relevant keywords
  564. # [20:35] <Philip`> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-August/001940.html
  565. # [20:35] <Philip`> (The W3C validator does warn about these things now, though)
  566. # [20:38] <JonathanNeal> So <br> <img> are bad?
  567. # [20:40] <Philip`> No
  568. # [20:40] <Philip`> Why would they be?
  569. # [20:40] <JonathanNeal> Ah, so it's because they're NOT self-closing, right?
  570. # [20:40] <Philip`> I have no idea what you're talking about :-)
  571. # [20:41] <JonathanNeal> <img> is okay because it's not an element that opens and closes, it just is.
  572. # [20:41] <Philip`> You've always been able to write "<br>" and "<img>" in HTML, because that's how the syntax is defined
  573. # [20:41] <tabatkins> JonathanNeal: In old-style SGML, the / was a way of closing a tag without explicitly using the end tag.
  574. # [20:41] <JonathanNeal> So ... <br /> is also valid.
  575. # [20:41] <JonathanNeal> So what would be bad about <div /> then?
  576. # [20:41] <tabatkins> So you could, frex, do "<div>stuff goes here/" and be equivalent to "<div>stuff goes here</div>"
  577. # [20:41] <Hixie> not quite
  578. # [20:42] <Hixie> <div/stuff goes here/
  579. # [20:42] <Hixie> or <br/ (since there's no end tag, no end / either)
  580. # [20:42] <tabatkins> Ah yeah, right.
  581. # [20:42] <JonathanNeal> No > ?
  582. # [20:42] <tabatkins> Nope.
  583. # [20:42] <Hixie> the first / takes places of the / and the next / takes place of the entire end tag
  584. # [20:42] <Hixie> er
  585. # [20:42] <Hixie> let me retype that
  586. # [20:42] <tabatkins> Which means that, if browsers were conforming SGML parsers, you'd see a linebreak followed by a > character in your page.
  587. # [20:43] <Hixie> the first / takes place of the > and the next / takes place of the entire end tag
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  589. # [20:43] <JonathanNeal> Wow! That's not implemented that way in any browser, is it?
  590. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> No, browsers don't actually implement SGML.
  591. # [20:43] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@81.93.12.28) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  592. # [20:44] <Hixie> there's a reason html5 gives up on the sgml fiction :-)
  593. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> So, you can do <div /> because it wouldn't be properly conforming to something no browsers actually implement?
  594. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> *can't
  595. # [20:44] <tabatkins> No, you can't do <div /> because it looks exactly like "<div>" to all browsers.
  596. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> Well, in HTML4.
  597. # [20:44] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-12-66.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  598. # [20:44] <tabatkins> [That is, it looks like an open tag.]
  599. # [20:44] <Hixie> here, if you want to blow your mind: http://damowmow.com/playground/mental.html http://damowmow.com/playground/not-html-yet-valid.html
  600. # [20:45] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  601. # [20:45] <Hixie> both of those validate in an html4 validator
  602. # [20:45] <tabatkins> Html nothing. I'm talking about browsers here, not languages. All existing browsers, current and legacy, treat it like that.
  603. # [20:45] <tabatkins> [Unless they are specifically in an XHTML mode, of course.[
  604. # [20:46] * Joins: ojan_ (~ojan@nat/google/x-pgzxlcooidcqvedl)
  605. # [20:46] <tabatkins> So allowing <div /> as a short form of <div></div> wouldn't be backwards compatible in any relevant browser straight away, let alone all the pages that accidentally use <div /> and would be screwed up if it actually acted like <div></div>.
  606. # [20:47] * annevk wonders when the SGML interest will die off
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  608. # [20:48] <tabatkins> Dammit, JonathanNeal. I didn't realize you'd dropped, and typed several lines at you. >_<
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  611. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> tabatkins, not only did i drop
  612. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> my whole computer restarted
  613. # [20:48] <tabatkins> That's fun.
  614. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> hixie's links really blew my mind
  615. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> and lappy's.
  616. # [20:48] <tabatkins> Anyway, check the logs. I don't want to retype those.
  617. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> I was like "This is a cell" and my computer was like "this fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu"
  618. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> Where do I find the logs?
  619. # [20:48] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-kgtkkswoppolhgal)
  620. # [20:48] <Philip`> tabatkins: There's this fancy new concept known as "copy and paste" which you could use
  621. # [20:48] <tabatkins> Check the topic.
  622. # [20:49] <tabatkins> Philip`: Too fancy for me.
  623. # [20:49] <JonathanNeal> checking
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  625. # [20:50] <JonathanNeal> tabatkins, aren't nav and video not backwards compatible?
  626. # [20:50] <JonathanNeal> I believe <section> causes fuglies in ff2 and ie6-7-8
  627. # [20:50] <tabatkins> They have fallback.
  628. # [20:51] <JonathanNeal> they don't have fallback ... not in those browsers. What do you mean by "fallback"?
  629. # [20:51] <tabatkins> ff2 is luckily ignorable.
  630. # [20:51] <tabatkins> ie6-8 has the hack, which is nice.
  631. # [20:51] <JonathanNeal> ie6-7-8?
  632. # [20:51] * Quits: thomas__ (~thomasain@ingserv.demon.co.uk) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115133306])
  633. # [20:52] <JonathanNeal> so it's okay because there's a hack? :-|
  634. # [20:52] <tabatkins> The hack makes it usable *now*, so... yes? Things are a lot less appealing when there's no way to use them until all browsers update.
  635. # [20:53] <tabatkins> That doesn't mean we'll avoid *all* things without fallback, but they need a better reason to exist.
  636. # [20:53] <tabatkins> Self-closing syntax has no real reason to exist besides "It's what XML does."
  637. # [20:53] <JonathanNeal> ie supports it.
  638. # [20:53] <Philip`> No it doesn't
  639. # [20:53] <Philip`> except sometimes
  640. # [20:54] <Hixie> ie's parsing behaviour is seriously messed up
  641. # [20:54] <Hixie> and very internally inconsistent
  642. # [20:54] <Philip`> like in unknown elements that are recognised due to being declared with xmlns:foo or with the createElement hack, or due to being any normal unknown element in IE9
  643. # [20:54] <Philip`> (i.e. <section/> closes the element in IE9)
  644. # [20:55] <Philip`> (but <div/> doesn't)
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  647. # [20:57] <JonathanNeal> Ah, I see.
  648. # [20:58] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@c-67-173-239-97.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  649. # [20:58] <JonathanNeal> I tried This is <span style="background: #0F0; padding: 10px;" /> self closing. and it failed in all browsers.
  650. # [20:59] <JonathanNeal> So it can't be implemented because it would break on all browsers. You're lucky you got any new elements in :)
  651. # [20:59] <JonathanNeal> Considering how ff used to handle these things.
  652. # [20:59] <tabatkins> If FF still handles unknown elements as badly as it used to, I suspect the new elements would have had a much more uphill battle.
  653. # [20:59] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-tjrorotabwoyzhqy)
  654. # [21:00] <JonathanNeal> aye
  655. # [21:08] * tabatkins goes to learn himself a python for great justice.
  656. # [21:18] <mr_daniel> is it really possible that Firefox still has no support for websockets? Just downloaded the newest version 3.6.3, but the included websocket chat in Jetty fails to run
  657. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> mr_daniel, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472529
  658. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> Work ongoing.
  659. # [21:23] <Hixie> mr_daniel: websockets isn't really ready yet, the wg is still discussing the protocol
  660. # [21:28] <annevk> Philip`, apparently their plan was to conform to HTML5
  661. # [21:28] <annevk> Philip`, maybe you should file bugs?
  662. # [21:29] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-4acfe455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  663. # [21:33] <MikeSmith> mr_daniel: if you are comfortable building from sources, you can download the patch from that bug and apply it and build and it should work
  664. # [21:34] * Quits: lazni1 (~lazni@118.71.56.85) (Quit: Leaving.)
  665. # [21:34] <MikeSmith> Hixie: it seems ready enough for experimenting with at least
  666. # [21:34] <MikeSmith> and for playing Quake2
  667. # [21:44] * Joins: estellevw_ (~estellevw@adsl-76-202-159-123.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  668. # [21:47] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-202-159-123.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  669. # [21:47] * estellevw_ is now known as estellevw
  670. # [21:49] * Joins: divya (~divya@c-24-18-47-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  671. # [21:52] <Hixie> MikeSmith: we're making non-backwards-compatible changes to the protocol, so everything will break
  672. # [21:53] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  673. # [21:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I realize
  674. # [21:54] <MikeSmith> but it's understandable that people are anxious to try it out in the mean time in spite of any instability of the protocol spec
  675. # [21:55] <Hixie> sure, i've done it myself :-)
  676. # [21:55] <Hixie> in my spare time i'm writing a web-based mud using websockets
  677. # [21:56] <annevk> mud?
  678. # [21:56] <annevk> multi-user d...?
  679. # [21:56] <paul_irish> daemon
  680. # [21:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you should make a mud where the character is a spec editor who needs to try to create spec for Web-platform features and get them standardized and implemented
  681. # [21:58] <Hixie> heh
  682. # [21:58] <Hixie> annevk: multi-user dungeon
  683. # [21:59] <paul_irish> oops. :x http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
  684. # [21:59] * MikeSmith thought it was "domain"
  685. # [22:01] * MikeSmith reads annevk blog and finds out about https://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Mounir.lamouri/HTML5_Forms
  686. # [22:01] <MikeSmith> would be interesting to know how soon active work might get started on all the items in the red rows
  687. # [22:02] <MikeSmith> oh, I see that some of them do have bugs associated with them already
  688. # [22:04] <MikeSmith> I wonder if anybody knows/remembers how long it took Opera engineering to finish their implementation of Web Forms 2 at the time
  689. # [22:04] <MikeSmith> or how many people-hours it took
  690. # [22:11] * MikeSmith wonders if recent TC39 f2f spent any time discussing https://cvs.khronos.org/svn/repos/registry/trunk/public/webgl/doc/spec/TypedArray-spec.html or other related proposals
  691. # [22:11] <annevk> one person on and off for half a year or so?
  692. # [22:11] * annevk doesn't remember the details
  693. # [22:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok
  694. # [22:12] <MikeSmith> it seems like Webkit devs have been working on it very actively for more than 6 months now
  695. # [22:12] <annevk> btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
  696. # [22:13] <annevk> it could be one person for a year on and off
  697. # [22:14] <annevk> but not more than a year and not more than one person developing; I created tests together with someone else
  698. # [22:14] <MikeSmith> ok
  699. # [22:14] <annevk> but then our UI is not great...
  700. # [22:14] <annevk> but then WebKit does not have UI yet I believe...
  701. # [22:14] <annevk> oh well
  702. # [22:15] <MikeSmith> I guess it's hard to decide what's the appropriate UI for some of these controls
  703. # [22:15] <MikeSmith> btw, W3C Bugzilla instance was upgraded today
  704. # [22:16] <tabatkins> A decent rule, of course, is "Do whatever the most popular equivalent jQuery plugin does."
  705. # [22:16] <annevk> well, you need a UI engineer, not someone who's typically deeply involved in DOM/parsing/etc. code
  706. # [22:16] <MikeSmith> right, exactly
  707. # [22:18] <estellevw> i've been doing some testing of the various form elements in recent browser releases. webkit seems to understand from a DOM perspective new input types, but does nothing with them
  708. # [22:18] <othermaciej> WebKit's UI for many of the controls is not so great
  709. # [22:18] <estellevw> in terms of UI
  710. # [22:19] <annevk> estellevw, yeah, that is somewhat troublesome
  711. # [22:20] <annevk> estellevw, but as long as nobody ships final releases I guess it could work
  712. # [22:21] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  713. # [22:21] <estellevw> no, i have been testing the actual releases, not the nightly builds... so it is what has been released
  714. # [22:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: or even not just a UI engineer, but a UX expert too
  715. # [22:22] <annevk> just a little insight might have done wonders, but we were short on time too
  716. # [22:22] <annevk> and with no competition and not much real world usage we didn't move it beyond experimental
  717. # [22:23] <annevk> estellevw, i.e. in Safari 4 and Chrome 4?
  718. # [22:23] <estellevw> for example, chrome supports color, date and email, but doesn't validate
  719. # [22:23] <MikeSmith> yeah, but all told, it's still a pretty good implementation
  720. # [22:23] <estellevw> yeah, exactly
  721. # [22:23] <annevk> ugh :/
  722. # [22:23] <annevk> MikeSmith, yeah, it's pretty cool
  723. # [22:23] <MikeSmith> Hixie: W3C bugzilla is down
  724. # [22:24] <estellevw> i've been compiling results here: http://www.standardista.com/html5/html5-web-forms (not finished ... a work in progress)
  725. # [22:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: systems team is working on it
  726. # [22:24] <miketaylr> estellevw: this might be helpful for you: http://www.miketaylr.com/code/input-type-attr.html
  727. # [22:24] <miketaylr> also, http://www.miketaylr.com/code/html5-forms-ui-support.html
  728. # [22:24] <estellevw> MIke- i came across your site last week, and found it extremely useful
  729. # [22:25] <miketaylr> ahh, k
  730. # [22:25] <estellevw> and then started visually comparing
  731. # [22:25] <miketaylr> yeah i'm just doing feature testing
  732. # [22:25] <estellevw> so, assumed DOM support from your excellent resource, and then sandboxed each
  733. # [22:26] <estellevw> nice to virtually meet you, by the way
  734. # [22:26] <miketaylr> :)
  735. # [22:26] <miketaylr> same
  736. # [22:27] <MikeSmith> are all 192.* IP addresses reserved (or whatever it's called), or just 192.168.* ones?
  737. # [22:30] <annevk> oh hey, someone is picking up the ball I sort of dropped: http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/msg01877.html
  738. # [22:32] <annevk> MikeSmith, do you know what happened to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-charsets/ ?
  739. # [22:33] <annevk> it scores highest on Google for ietf-charsets but has dropped the ball seemingly after 2004
  740. # [22:33] <MikeSmith> annevk: wfm
  741. # [22:33] <MikeSmith> oh, I see
  742. # [22:33] <MikeSmith> no idea
  743. # [22:33] <MikeSmith> it's an IETF list, just hosted at W3C
  744. # [22:34] <MikeSmith> maybe Richard or Martin Duerst would know
  745. # [22:34] <annevk> the actual list is hosted by IANA
  746. # [22:34] <annevk> well, it uses an IANA email address
  747. # [22:34] * Quits: knowtheory (~knowtheor@bas1-london16-1176190035.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: There are lives at stake here!)
  748. # [22:35] <MikeSmith> other IANA lists are hosted somewhere else
  749. # [22:35] <MikeSmith> like the language-subtags list
  750. # [22:35] * MikeSmith tries to find
  751. # [22:35] <MikeSmith> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
  752. # [22:35] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  753. # [22:36] <MikeSmith> but that seems to be the same list as ietf-languages@iana.org
  754. # [22:37] <annevk> W3C lists are nice
  755. # [22:37] <Philip`> MikeSmith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_network#Private_IPv4_address_spaces
  756. # [22:37] <MikeSmith> Philip`: ah, thanks
  757. # [22:38] <annevk> WHATWG mailing list archive links have been broken at least once (and not fixed) and now several different entry points are used
  758. # [22:38] <annevk> it's a bit of a mess
  759. # [22:38] <MikeSmith> so it is only the 192.168.* range
  760. # [22:39] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Yep
  761. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> annevk: ietf-charsets@iana.org
  762. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> but that appears to lead nowhere
  763. # [22:41] <annevk> MikeSmith, the actual archive is now at http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/
  764. # [22:41] <annevk> MikeSmith, just wondering why the W3C one was not kept updated
  765. # [22:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunno, I'll ask RIchard
  766. # [22:44] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@99-196-76-107.cust.wildblue.net)
  767. # [22:49] <jgraham> Hixie: Did you try regenning the spec recently? Did the non-BMP entity problems go away?
  768. # [22:50] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-4acfe455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  769. # [22:50] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-4acfe455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  770. # [22:50] <MikeSmith> jgraham: fwiw, I can try it now
  771. # [22:51] <Dashiva> "Developers should know better than to use a GET request for teleportation."
  772. # [22:51] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@12.33.239.250) (Quit: paul_irish)
  773. # [22:52] <annevk> for that td:last-child:hover effect a transform might look better
  774. # [22:53] <annevk> though might also work less well come to think of it
  775. # [22:53] <annevk> unless we get some hit testing control
  776. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: so I'm told the w3c ietf-charsets list was shut down at the beginning of 2004 due disuse and to being overwhelmed with spam
  777. # [22:54] <annevk> kk, too bad
  778. # [22:54] <annevk> with the ietf mailing list archive you get everything on a single page
  779. # [22:54] <jgraham> MikeSmith: OK
  780. # [22:54] <annevk> it 1) takes ages to load and 2) doesn't browse very well
  781. # [22:55] * jgraham is futzing about with python on the server at the moment as well so it is not impossible that something will accidentially break
  782. # [22:55] <jgraham> (it shouldn't but...)
  783. # [22:56] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-74-125.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  784. # [22:56] <gsnedders> (I wouldn't trust jgraham.)
  785. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: if the list is no longer spam-inundated, I can ask for the mirroring to be turned back on
  786. # [22:57] <annevk> nah it's okay, thanks
  787. # [22:57] <JonathanNeal> hey again
  788. # [22:58] <jgraham> Dashiva: where is that from?
  789. # [22:58] <Dashiva> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=31482
  790. # [22:58] <annevk> going to bed, hopefully I can sleep ten or so hours and defeat da jetlag
  791. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: oyasumi
  792. # [22:58] * annevk only slept like two hours on the plane...
  793. # [22:59] <annevk> MikeSmith, ta!
  794. # [23:00] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  797. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> jgraham: this only affects the serializer behavior, right?
  798. # [23:04] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Yes
  799. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> ok
  800. # [23:07] <Hixie> jgraham: trying now
  801. # [23:08] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You will need to wait a bit I think
  802. # [23:08] <MikeSmith> jgraham: hai
  803. # [23:08] <jgraham> The python messing changed some paths, I am just fixing now
  804. # [23:08] <jgraham> (well actually I am taking the oppertunity to upgrade some of the installed versions of things at the same time)
  805. # [23:09] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@99-196-76-107.cust.wildblue.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  806. # [23:09] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-4acfe455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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  808. # [23:13] <JonathanNeal> I wish there was a way to tell the w3 validator to ignore certain things, like X-UA-Compatible
  809. # [23:13] <JonathanNeal> Just because it makes me sad when I see the red tape.
  810. # [23:13] <Hixie> jgraham: getting 500s
  811. # [23:18] * gsnedders blames jgraham, looks innocent himself
  812. # [23:21] <jgraham> MikeSmith, Hixie: Should be back up now
  813. # [23:22] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: That is sort of the point
  814. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> jgraham: hg pull says no updates found
  815. # [23:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Pull of what?
  816. # [23:22] <JonathanNeal> jgraham, but poor IE!
  817. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> um, from html5lib repo
  818. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> I thought that's where you were making the changes
  819. # [23:24] <gsnedders> He did a lot earlier
  820. # [23:24] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I made a change there earlier (rev. 4113ad9d98) but I was just futzing with the server
  821. # [23:24] <jgraham> now
  822. # [23:24] <jgraham> I needed to upgrade python and that changed the default python path
  823. # [23:24] <MikeSmith> aha
  824. # [23:25] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  825. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> I was confused
  826. # [23:25] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: like normal
  827. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> heh
  828. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> I had forgotten that this was a change needed to gsnedders adonais tool
  829. # [23:26] <jgraham> (the need to upgrade python was entirely unrelated to this issue)
  830. # [23:27] <MikeSmith> I guess I will need to wait til Hixie checks in again
  831. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> because I'm just working with his post-adonais generated output
  832. # [23:28] <jgraham> OK, well I am going to sleep in a moment so if it is broken it will have to stay broken for a while
  833. # [23:31] <JonathanNeal> http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php <html lang="en"> fails ... is "en" not valid ISO 639 specification for the HTML lang attribute?
  834. # [23:32] <Hixie> regenning again
  835. # [23:34] <Hixie> hrm i overloaded pms
  836. # [23:34] <Hixie> let me add more delays and try again
  837. # [23:35] * Quits: hamaji (~hamaji@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  838. # [23:37] <Hixie> hm, wait, it's not my fault
  839. # [23:37] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm getting xml syntax errors
  840. # [23:37] <Hixie> jgraham: when doing the specs that have the annotations
  841. # [23:38] <Hixie> jgraham: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.w3c-html-core/Overview.html
  842. # [23:38] <jgraham> Oh. That sounds bad
  843. # [23:39] * Joins: hamaji (~hamaji@220.109.219.244)
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  845. # [23:40] <jgraham> Hixie: Would it be a problem to turn off the annotations until I have a chance to fix?
  846. # [23:40] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@nat/google/x-ktktwdgotsnfptyy)
  847. # [23:42] <Hixie> no
  848. # [23:42] <Hixie> not for me, at least
  849. # [23:42] <Hixie> can't speak for everyone else... there's always someone who'll fine a problem with something
  850. # [23:43] <Hixie> what parameter do i need to remove to stop it annotating?
  851. # [23:43] <Hixie> just annotation= ?
  852. # [23:43] <Hixie> or annotate_w3c_issues=?
  853. # [23:43] <Hixie> both?
  854. # [23:44] <Hixie> i prefixed both with xxx-, we'll see if that helps
  855. # [23:46] <Hixie> MikeSmith: checking in
  856. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> OK
  857. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2010Apr/0011.html is entertaining
  858. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> Jukka Korpela
  859. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> '"HTML 5" is codename for a sketch of a draft of a working paper. "Validating" against something as vague as that is pointlss.'
  860. # [23:47] <jgraham> Hixie: It might well work with annotations now
  861. # [23:48] <MikeSmith> dude is such a sweetheart, you just gotta love him
  862. # [23:48] <Hixie> jgraham: k trying
  863. # [23:48] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i guess he hasn't looked at the spec recently
  864. # [23:49] <Hixie> MikeSmith: or he draws WAY bigger sketches than i do
  865. # [23:49] <MikeSmith> heh
  866. # [23:49] <tabatkins> I can't imagine the draft of a working paper that HTML5 is a sketch of, let alone the working paper itself.
  867. # [23:49] <Hixie> i mean, there are lots of ways to dismiss html5, but calling it a "sketch" is somewhat silly
  868. # [23:49] <MikeSmith> he's an expert, so he's not obligated to actually read specs
  869. # [23:50] * Hixie lies to his script to get it to actually regen the specs even though he didn't change anything
  870. # [23:50] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  871. # [23:50] <tabatkins> Hixie: irssi actually isn't that bad. I'll continue to use that on my linux boxes I guess.
  872. # [23:51] <Hixie> dude i've been telling you that for ages :-P
  873. # [23:51] <tabatkins> If "for ages" you mean "once, last week", then yes.
  874. # [23:51] * Quits: scherkus (~scherkus@74.125.59.73) (Quit: lol)
  875. # [23:52] <Hixie> jgraham: looks like it worked
  876. # [23:52] <Hixie> tabatkins: i live in the now, anything in the past happened ages ago :-P
  877. # [23:52] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ok, looks like the astral plane stuff is all fixed
  878. # [23:52] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.66) (Quit: Leaving...)
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  885. # [23:54] * MikeSmith runs splitter on W3C copy
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  892. # [23:55] <MikeSmith> yippee
  893. # [23:55] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/named-character-references.html
  894. # [23:55] <MikeSmith> back to normal
  895. # [23:55] <Hixie> now if only browsers supported absolute positioning correctly in columns
  896. # [23:55] <Hixie> so the hover effect worked in more than the first column
  897. # [23:56] <JonathanNeal> It's kinda weird how the letter disappears
  898. # [23:56] <JonathanNeal> when you hover
  899. # [23:57] <JonathanNeal> Oh ... I see ... it's just not working right in Chrome.
  900. # [23:57] <MikeSmith> people should just ignore those other columns
  901. # [23:57] <tabatkins> Wow, that's... quite a table.
  902. # [23:57] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/ appears to back in action too
  903. # [23:58] * Joins: scherkus (~scherkus@74.125.59.65)
  904. # [23:58] * JonathanNeal is now known as WitchFromDune
  905. # [23:58] * WitchFromDune is now known as JonathanNeal
  906. # [23:58] <tabatkins> JonathanNeal: ?_?
  907. # [23:59] <JonathanNeal> tabatkins, what are you ?_? ing?
  908. # [23:59] <tabatkins> Your nick change.
  909. # [23:59] <paul_irish> tabatkins: http://paulirish.com/i/ec20.png
  910. # [23:59] <tabatkins> Ah, I see.
  911. # Session Close: Sat Apr 03 00:00:01 2010

The end :)