/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 08 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [00:44] <abarth_> Hixie: is there a reason not to have the following work:
  16. # [00:44] <abarth_> <frameset>
  17. # [00:44] <abarth_> <frame src="sf.html" sandbox>
  18. # [00:44] <abarth_> </frame>
  19. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Other than "why are you caring about frames?"?
  20. # [00:44] <abarth_> apparently someone inside google wants to use @sandbox
  21. # [00:44] <abarth_> but they're using framesets
  22. # [00:44] <abarth_> instead of iframes
  23. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Interesting. Could you point me to them so I can help them not use framesets?
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  25. # [00:45] <abarth_> haha
  26. # [00:45] <abarth_> ok
  27. # [00:46] <abarth_> done
  28. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Ah yes, hmm. I'll play with this for a sec and see what we can do about it.
  29. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> In any case, I don't see any particular reason it shouldn't be supported, other than that <frameset> and <frame> are obsolete elements.
  30. # [00:50] <abarth_> we're getting close to shipping @sandbox
  31. # [00:51] <abarth_> but we can add it to other kinds of frames later
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  40. # [01:32] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, you may find this interesting http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-wai/ it attempts to hit many birds with one stone; html5, outline, wai, 508, microformat.
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  43. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Why are you using <div>s for the main content rather than <article>?
  44. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> Also, role=document is assumed automatically on <body>, so there's no reason to put a wrapper <div> just to get that.
  45. # [01:37] <JonathanNeal> It's there in the event I add an application aside of it.
  46. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> ?_?
  47. # [01:37] <JonathanNeal> say a dockbar on the top, a chatbar on the side, or some other role="application" aside the main document but on the same page.
  48. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> Regardless, the <body> is still a role=document, and I don't think it needs to be repeated on the main page.
  49. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> I assume that anything which isn't explicitly wrapped is considered part of the body's document.
  50. # [01:38] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@216.239.45.19) (Quit: othermaciej)
  51. # [01:40] <JonathanNeal> If that was the case, then there would never be a reason to use more than one role per page.
  52. # [01:40] <JonathanNeal> clarify --- role="document" || role="application"
  53. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure what you mean. You just gave a potential reason to use more than one role. You're embedding applications inside a document.
  54. # [01:41] <JonathanNeal> I can see removing it because it is inherited from body (since body is not overwritten)
  55. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Btw, the lynx viewer link you have gets angry if it sees a referer from another page.
  56. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> <body><div role="application>dock application</div><div role="document">main document</div><div role="application>chat application</div></body>
  57. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> I know, I go there and then just re-highlight the addy and return.
  58. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Kk, just saying.
  59. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> So ... you're saying that it's unnecessary because in that case ...
  60. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> <body><div role="application>dock application</div><div>main document</div><div role="application>chat application</div></body> ... is just the same
  61. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  62. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> I think.
  63. # [01:43] * TabAtkins isn't an expert on ARIA, but that seems to make sense.
  64. # [01:43] <JonathanNeal> Yeah, that makes sense to me too, I think you're right.
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  68. # [01:52] <KaOSoFt> I'm just a novice but, why <div id="main-content"> and not <section id="main-content">? I'm coding an HTML5 template right now, and I use a <div id="wrap">, but I also (inside the "#wrap") use a <section id="main-content">.
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  70. # [01:53] <TabAtkins> I don't see a particularly good reason for either of those <div>s. The whole <div><div><section> structure should be swappable for a single <article> or <section>.
  71. # [01:55] <KaOSoFt> Well, I read somewhere (unfortunately don't remember where) that now with <section> and <article>, <div> had no semantic meaning, that's why I use it as a meaningless container.
  72. # [01:56] <KaOSoFt> Well, while <header> and <footer> should make things "easier", I also have a point of view where they are still <section>s, which means, that I'd do it: <section id="header">, <section id="main-content"> and <section id="footer">, for example.
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  74. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> <div> Never had semantics meaning, actually. It was always purely there for the purpose of grouping things to make it easier to throw CSS and JS at the page.
  75. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> Same with <span>.
  76. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> The idea of <section>, <article>, <aside>, etc is that some of those groupings *were* semantics, and commonly expressed by authors (often through #ids on the elements), so we can usefully capture those semantics and allow other technologies to use them.
  77. # [01:58] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  78. # [02:02] <JonathanNeal> For me, having a <section id="main-content"> would not be so easy to title.
  79. # [02:02] <KaOSoFt> Like I said, elements like <header> and <footer> are just short-cuts to me. They are indeed <section>s. Oh, well, I could just stay with my idea, and use <section id="header"> and the like, but future-proof machines wouldn't understand my web site as well.
  80. # [02:02] <JonathanNeal> and something like <section id="wrap"> would default the sectioning purpose of <body>
  81. # [02:03] <JonathanNeal> I think there is still room for divs to be organizational for the content, which you could say is semantic.
  82. # [02:03] <TabAtkins> <header> isn't a section, actually, and you don't want it to be - it would scope the headings you put in it to itself, and not let them refer to the outer section you put the <header> in!
  83. # [02:03] <JonathanNeal> Since the requirements and recommendations for sectioning are too strict on <section|article|aside|etc>
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  85. # [02:04] <KaOSoFt> TabAtkins- Hmm, yeah, I'm checking the code on your test-site, and it indeed doesn't use <header> as the header of the document. It uses a <div>, and you use <header> to encompass the headings.
  86. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> That's JonathanNeal. ^_^
  87. # [02:04] <KaOSoFt> Er, yeah, that.
  88. # [02:04] <KaOSoFt> :P
  89. # [02:04] <JonathanNeal> KaOSoFt, yea that's my test site. TabAtkins may not want to be associated with that little nugget of joy.
  90. # [02:05] <KaOSoFt> Hahaha.
  91. # [02:05] <KaOSoFt> God, semantics sometimes can be deceitful.
  92. # [02:05] <TabAtkins> You can use <header> as the header of the site! Nothing wrong with that; in fact, plenty right with it. It's just not a "section", in the way that <section> and <article> and <aside> are.
  93. # [02:06] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.40)
  94. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> Precisely because "sections" scope the headings inside of them, and you *want* headings inside of <header> to apply to the content outside of <header>.
  95. # [02:07] <KaOSoFt> Where do you take the role from? Is it part of HTML5 spec?
  96. # [02:07] <KaOSoFt> "role="
  97. # [02:07] <JonathanNeal> <div id="main-document" /> extends body (the scope isn't changed by sectioning content), and there are instances where I will have other applications aside it, like I mentioned earlier. The benefit is that, even in instances where there are NOT applications aside of it, I can keep the div because it doesn't have any meaning.
  98. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> Officially from the ARIA spec, but HTML5 defines how you can use @role on HTML elements.
  99. # [02:08] <KaOSoFt> I see.
  100. # [02:08] * KaOSoFt goes to check the ARIA spec
  101. # [02:09] <JonathanNeal> So then it's useful for styling. Giving it the role was to enforce its intended usage, but without the other DIVs it doesn't seem as necessary, and as TabAtkins is pointing out, the document role may already be inherited.
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  104. # [02:14] <TabAtkins> KaOSoFt: Basically, ARIA is a way to add additional semantics to documents in ways that the document language doesn't yet allow, so that other types of UAs, like screen readers, can understand what something is. For example, javascript libraries often let you define a slider control, and build it out of several <div>s. You can tell what this is and how to use it by looking at it, but if you were having the page read to you you'd have n
  105. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> A lot of HTML5 elements now carry native semantics that render a lot of ARIA unnecessary, which is a good thing. Frex, <input type=range> should replace many uses for sliders.
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  111. # [02:36] <KaOSoFt> So many things to synchronize. :S
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  113. # [02:37] <KaOSoFt> Everytime I read about a specification, it makes me wonder how long will it take to really release HTML5.
  114. # [02:39] <KaOSoFt> I mean:
  115. # [02:39] <KaOSoFt> It's like, there are so many things that HTML5 has currently addressed, that every time I see something new (to me), I wonder how long will it take to make it work together, all synchronized.
  116. # [02:42] <Hixie> it's probably a bad sign that having decided i wasn't sure if "punt" meant what i thought it meant, i looked it up on wikitionary, and the only example usage of the word in the sense i meant it is quoting two people i work with.
  117. # [02:43] <KaOSoFt> ._.
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  119. # [02:44] <KaOSoFt> Oh, by the way, I've had this inquiry for a while, and I think this channel would be the right place to ask:
  120. # [02:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: Which meaning?
  121. # [02:46] <KaOSoFt> I've always read that we should specify the image height and width in the <img> tag, so browsers render them faster, but is it really "okay"? I mean, if for some reason I change the image, which could possibly change its size, I'd have to also change the HTML file.
  122. # [02:46] <TabAtkins> There's nothing wrong with either way.
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  124. # [02:56] <Hixie> gsnedders: not doing it straight away
  125. # [02:56] <Hixie> as in, i think we should punt on doing this for now
  126. # [02:57] <KaOSoFt> Oh, well, time to go home.
  127. # [02:57] <KaOSoFt> Goodnight.
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  142. # [03:44] <yael_> hello, can I ask a ARIA related question here?
  143. # [03:45] <davidb> yael: sure, there is also #wai-aria
  144. # [03:46] <davidb> oh sorry that is on w3c
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  146. # [03:49] <yael_> I am workin on connecting the progress element to accessibility technology. Since ARIA defines one role for both determinate and indeterminate progress bar, how does the browser convey the difference to the accessibility software?
  147. # [03:51] <yael_> On the mac, it says "9 percent" for indeterminate progress bar, and that is obviously wrong.
  148. # [03:51] <Hixie> if you're implementing the <progress> element in a browser, you wouldn't use ARIA, you'd use the platform-native accessibility APIs
  149. # [03:51] <Hixie> or am i misunderstanding
  150. # [03:53] <yael_> You are right, but I am still defining the role for the progress element , and pass that to the platform API.
  151. # [03:53] <othermaciej> yael_: if you're talking about WebKit, you would want to special case this in the accessibility code
  152. # [03:53] <othermaciej> yael_: we have the ability to represent roles that don't map to an ARIA role
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  154. # [03:54] <yael_> othermaciej: Do you have an example?
  155. # [03:55] <othermaciej> yael_: look at the AccessibilityRole enum in AccessibilityObject.h
  156. # [03:55] <othermaciej> yael_: you can add roles to that if you need to
  157. # [03:55] <othermaciej> but it's also worth checking what the mac AX APIs expect for an indeterminate progress bar
  158. # [03:56] <yael_> sounds good, thanks
  159. # [03:56] <othermaciej> yael_: Mac has only one role for progress indicators; you can see the reference for all roles here: http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Cocoa/Reference/ApplicationKit/Protocols/NSAccessibility_Protocol/Reference/Reference.html#//apple_ref/doc/c_ref/
  160. # [03:57] <othermaciej> yael_: what you probably need is to expose the right attributes
  161. # [03:58] <othermaciej> yael_: you can see what a native progress bar exposes for role and attributes with Accessibility Verifier.app
  162. # [03:58] <othermaciej> yael_: for both determinate and indeterminate state
  163. # [03:58] <othermaciej> yael_: your goal at least in the Mac accessibility interface should be to replicate that
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  177. # [04:53] <JonathanNeal> Hi all!
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  209. # [07:20] <othermaciej> hello everyone
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  211. # [07:23] <JonathanNeal> hi othermaciej
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  224. # [07:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: are you around?
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  226. # [08:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: wanted to ask why you went with leading underscore instead of leading hyphen for vendor-specific attributes
  227. # [08:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: so I can appropriately advise people thinking of using vendor-specific attributes
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  234. # [08:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: leading hyphen is illformed in xml
  235. # [08:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: stupid bondange&discipline markup language!
  236. # [08:29] <Hixie> *shrug*
  237. # [08:29] <Hixie> i just work with what we have
  238. # [08:31] <hsivonen> :-( crazy volume of email on public-html. Will I miss anything if I mark all as read?
  239. # [08:31] <othermaciej> what's weird is that NAmespaces in XML allows essentially anything
  240. # [08:31] <othermaciej> hsivonen: which thread?
  241. # [08:32] <hsivonen> othermaciej: everything since Friday
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  244. # [08:33] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I can summarize for you, since I am crazy enough to read all of it
  245. # [08:34] <hsivonen> Shelley wanted to remove stuff and others disagreed?
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  247. # [08:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: superficially, it looks like Namespaces in XML allows leading underscore unless I am reading wrong: 'In XML documents which conform to this specification, element and attribute names MUST match the production for QName and MUST satisfy the "Namespace Constraints".'
  248. # [08:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: or is the prevailing interpretation that you have to match both QName and Name?
  249. # [08:34] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that was a lot of it
  250. # [08:35] <othermaciej> hsivonen: with subthreads on accessibility and control styling
  251. # [08:35] <Hixie> xmlns doesn't change xml syntax
  252. # [08:35] <Hixie> it just adds more constraints
  253. # [08:35] <othermaciej> I thought the post about control styling that I tweeted was marginally interesting
  254. # [08:35] <Hixie> unless you've found a bug in xmlns
  255. # [08:36] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I read the email you tweeted. thanks
  256. # [08:36] <Hixie> QName doesn't match anything Name doesn't match
  257. # [08:36] <othermaciej> Hixie: I am pretty sure the QName production in Namespaces in XML 1.0 (Third Edition) is not a proper subset of the Name production in XML 1.0 (Fifth Edition
  258. # [08:37] <Hixie> sure it is
  259. # [08:37] <Hixie> it's defined in terms of Name in fact
  260. # [08:37] <othermaciej> oh I see
  261. # [08:37] <othermaciej> I failed to comprehend the '-'
  262. # [08:38] <Hixie> there's even a comment explaining it :-P
  263. # [08:38] <othermaciej> yeah, but who has time to read specs :-p
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  265. # [08:38] <othermaciej> I don't know if I can bring myself to tell people to make attributes starting with _webkit-
  266. # [08:38] <othermaciej> if I tell them it's for XML compatibility they will just laugh at me
  267. # [08:39] <Hixie> well if it helps, mozilla's been doing it for about a decade now
  268. # [08:39] <othermaciej> hsivonen: other stuff of interest - the lengthy ISSUE-88 (content-language) continues
  269. # [08:39] <Hixie> and fwiw, if this discourages people from making extensions, that's fine too
  270. # [08:39] <othermaciej> hsivonen: we have a possible solution on referencing the IRI spec if Larry ever wakes up
  271. # [08:39] <Hixie> (not so fine if it encourages them to just trample over the language of course)
  272. # [08:39] <othermaciej> Hixie: there are _moz- attributes?
  273. # [08:40] <Hixie> yeah
  274. # [08:40] <othermaciej> example?
  275. # [08:40] <othermaciej> hsivonen: also DanC submitted a very mild proposal for the "resource" vs "resource representation" issue
  276. # [08:40] <othermaciej> and Julian said it would be fine with him to remove the description of @profile from the spec
  277. # [08:41] <hsivonen> In my opinion, _moz attributes shouldn't be exposes as attributes but should be stored on the DOM nodes or maybe CSS frames as private data
  278. # [08:41] * othermaciej hopes we can actually resolve some issues maybe
  279. # [08:41] <hsivonen> othermaciej: thanks
  280. # [08:42] <hsivonen> othermaciej: try parsin <keygen> in text/html or some non-trivial MathML in application/xhtml+xml in Firefox and inspect the DOM to see _moz attributes
  281. # [08:43] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I see - so it's Mozilla internal stuff?
  282. # [08:43] <othermaciej> as opposed to extensions anyone is meant to see?
  283. # [08:44] <hsivonen> othermaciej: right (at least for the _moz attributes I have seen)
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  285. # [08:44] <othermaciej> I am not sure we store anything like that as DOM attributes in WebKit
  286. # [08:44] <othermaciej> maybe in editing code, though I think that is mostly limited to funky class names
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  288. # [08:45] <othermaciej> yeah, just funky class names afaict
  289. # [08:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: the only example i can think of is _moz-unknown which is set on elements the (old?) parser didn't recognise
  290. # [08:46] <Hixie> oh yeah as hsivonen says there's also some _moz stuff around <keygen>
  291. # [08:46] <othermaciej> the parser adding random attributes seems really bad, however they are prefixed :-(
  292. # [08:46] <hsivonen> yes
  293. # [08:46] <Hixie> indeed
  294. # [08:46] <Hixie> i didn't say it was a good idea :-)
  295. # [08:46] <Hixie> just that they have existed
  296. # [08:47] <othermaciej> I get it
  297. # [08:47] <othermaciej> I just cry with sad on the inside
  298. # [08:47] <Hixie> hehe
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  315. # [10:05] <jgraham> TabAtkins: If there is some way that I can be in the loop on the testing thing, let me know what it is :)
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  318. # [10:13] <hsivonen> wirepair: Yes, I have considered the threat of using validator.nu with show source enabled as an open proxy
  319. # [10:14] <hsivonen> wirepair: a mitigating factor is that the resource being retrieved has to go through the HTML parser or the XML parser without fatal errors
  320. # [10:15] <Hixie> hah
  321. # [10:15] <hsivonen> wirepair: so it's useless as a general purpose proxy for anonymous porn surfers
  322. # [10:15] <zcorpan> so if you don't want your site vulnerable, include start your html page with <head></head><link>
  323. # [10:16] <hsivonen> wirepair: so far, there haven't been problems with people using it as a text-only open proxy
  324. # [10:16] <hsivonen> wirepair: so I haven't tried to make that kind of use harder
  325. # [10:17] <hsivonen> wirepair: after all, the show source feature is pretty useful for its intended purpose
  326. # [10:18] <hsivonen> wirepair: as for 3rd party security, if someone has a vulnerability that can be exploited by cookieless GET from the public network, they have bigger problems than validators
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  336. # [10:45] <hsivonen> what was the "subdued errors concept"
  337. # [10:45] <hsivonen> my memory is bad
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  339. # [10:46] <Hixie> what we had before we moved to comforming-but-obsolete-and-with-warning
  340. # [10:47] <Hixie> something that's an error but which the validator is expected to collapse into a single statement that "there are also some other less important things to worry about"
  341. # [10:49] <othermaciej> it was "downplayed errors", wasn't it?
  342. # [10:50] <hsivonen> yeah, I thought that was "downplayed errors"
  343. # [10:53] <othermaciej> whatever one names that category, I think collapsing all the notices into a single statement, yet still labeling the document as nonconforming, is the opposite of what is useful for very minor issues
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  346. # [10:59] <Hixie> aren't "downplayed" and "subdued" the same thing?
  347. # [10:59] <jgraham> Sigh. The amount of effort that has gone into naming and renaming that categoty of things is so sad
  348. # [10:59] <Hixie> if i said "subdued", i was referring to "downlplayed"; if someone else was, dunno
  349. # [10:59] <jgraham> *category
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  359. # [11:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: I see
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  369. # [12:44] <annevk> oh fun, maybe <basefont> can be nuked after all
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  371. # [12:57] <zcorpan> nuked from dom and parser?
  372. # [12:57] <annevk> not parser
  373. # [12:58] <annevk> since the parser cost is extremely low I don't really care about that
  374. # [13:03] <zcorpan> what's the new information about basefont?
  375. # [13:06] <Lachy> Which browser's support basefont? Is it just IE?
  376. # [13:07] <Lachy> and do you have information about it being removed from IE9 or something?
  377. # [13:07] <jgraham> I guess Mozilla just removed it
  378. # [13:07] <annevk> zcorpan, sicking wrote a patch for Gecko
  379. # [13:08] <Lachy> ah, that explains why Minefield isn't supporting it now.
  380. # [13:10] <annevk> not really, it hasn't landed
  381. # [13:10] <zcorpan> i wonder what ie9 does with basefont
  382. # [13:10] <zcorpan> Lachy: mozilla hasn't supported rendering for basefont before
  383. # [13:11] <zcorpan> Lachy: but has had HTMLBaseFontElement or whatever
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  388. # [14:13] <hsivonen> Lachy: IIRC, no one got around to implementing <basefont> in Gecko in the first place
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  392. # [14:36] <annevk> would be fun to transition text-align
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  396. # [15:08] <gsnedders> Is it bad I can't help but think of XML when othermaciej says "this change proposal is well-formed"
  397. # [15:09] <Dashiva> Yes
  398. # [15:09] <Dashiva> So is a non-well-formed change proposal still a change proposal, or is it just mislabeled text?
  399. # [15:09] <jgraham> Nah, it just doesn't exist, by definition
  400. # [15:10] <jgraham> A theoretical impossibility
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  417. # [15:43] <zcorpan> where's the webaddress spec?
  418. # [15:43] * zcorpan needs the 'resolve an address' algorithm
  419. # [15:44] <gsnedders> You don't get no stinkin' address.
  420. # [15:44] <zcorpan> :'(
  421. # [15:44] * jgraham wonders if that algorithm has actually been written yet
  422. # [15:44] <zcorpan> i thought it was in the webaddress spec
  423. # [15:45] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/href/draft
  424. # [15:45] <jgraham> I mean it *did* exist but then people decided it wasn't good enough just to have all the useful information, there also had to be fights about where the useful information lived
  425. # [15:45] <jgraham> and some information got lost in the fights
  426. # [15:45] <jgraham> But maybe not that
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  444. # [17:23] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Join the public-test-infra list. We're stealing it for our purposes.
  445. # [17:24] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: People and their mailing lists
  446. # [17:24] <jgraham> Yay, mailing lists!
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  462. # [18:32] <JonathanNeal> hi all!
  463. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> yo
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  468. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> Oh man, anyone in MV that wants brownies should come by my office.
  469. # [18:34] <JonathanNeal> Mission Viejo?
  470. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> Sure. It'll be a drive, but if you're still welcome to come by my office.
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  474. # [18:44] <KaOSoFt> Good morning.
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  480. # [18:57] <KaOSoFt> :o
  481. # [18:57] <KaOSoFt> Google already supports Microdata.
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  490. # [19:09] <KaOSoFt> In HTML5, can <img> be used outside of <figure>? Like: http://pastebin.com/BzcDZqct
  491. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah, you can still use <img> wherever you want.
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  504. # [19:34] <KaOSoFt> While what I'm about to say might be a taboo, have you people made a poll with the users on this channel about what they're currently using, be it RDFa or Microdata?
  505. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> Is it important to do so?
  506. # [19:35] <KaOSoFt> Statistics are always important, whether you take them into account or not.
  507. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> Statistics of a random chat room probably aren't. ^_^ Usage on the web is.
  508. # [19:36] <KaOSoFt> Well, the poll would be about people using it.
  509. # [19:36] <KaOSoFt> ._.
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  511. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> KaOSoFt, you didn't even mention microformatting.
  512. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> That's like not including Google :)
  513. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Microformats are already part of HTML, though. We're talking *dedicated* metadata embedding formats.
  514. # [19:38] <KaOSoFt> Well, to be "impartial", let's include Microformatting, though I don't like it that much.
  515. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, well maybe everyone is okay with that.
  516. # [19:39] <KaOSoFt> Besides, I guess usage shows a bigger RDFa user-base than Microdata, given their age.
  517. # [19:40] <JonathanNeal> Say 1000 people use one of those three; 300 use microdata, 200 use RDFa, and 500 use microformatting --- disregarding microformatting is strange --- because they're all trying to accomplish the same functionality.
  518. # [19:40] <JonathanNeal> It's not like comparing people that don't do anything to people that do something --- you should try to include all popular "something"s.
  519. # [19:41] <KaOSoFt> Hmm... though it's an example, you mention at least 300 people using Microdata. Has user-base really grown that much?
  520. # [19:41] <KaOSoFt> I mean, in general.
  521. # [19:41] <JonathanNeal> The internet is SERIOUS BUSINESS KaOSoFt!
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  524. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> In any case, Microformats are not defined by their embedding. They're a structure to apply to data. They happened to use an embedding method built around existing HTML4 syntax, because that's what was available at the time, but writing an hcard in Microdata or RDFa is still using Microformats.
  525. # [19:45] <KaOSoFt> I guess in the end it's better to have multiple "supported" options, than to have one unsupported.
  526. # [19:46] <KaOSoFt> That's kind of why I don't like Microformats.
  527. # [19:50] <JonathanNeal> It's kinda what the class attribute was designed to do.
  528. # [19:51] <JonathanNeal> Not that I'm against Microdata or RDFa, even though they kill unicorns.
  529. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> Well, yes and no. Class isn't necessarily supposed to be communicating anything meaningful to the outside world. It's meant for private communication between the page author and their tools.
  530. # [19:52] <JonathanNeal> RDFa has nicer documention and adoption than Microdata IMHO.
  531. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> While I, on the other hand, find Microdata's overall syntax and data model to be immensely simpler and easier to write and read.
  532. # [19:56] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, I bet I would feel the same way if the documentation wasn't such a unrainbow.
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  542. # [20:19] <KaOSoFt> Oh, damn, wait... if not even Internet Explorer recognizes HTML5 elements (<header>, <section>, etc.), how can I make print stylesheets work? :o
  543. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> The IE printing problem is a hard one. If print stylesheets working in IE is important to you, don't use HTML5 yet.
  544. # [20:21] <KaOSoFt> Internet Explorer 8*
  545. # [20:22] <KaOSoFt> Yeah. It's not a problem for MY website, but if I were to ever code a website for someone else, I guess I'd have to switch back to <div>.
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  547. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> I think that most people don't actually care how websites print, so you're probably okay.
  548. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> IE can handle the new elements just fine on the screen, with the createElement hack.
  549. # [20:24] <KaOSoFt> Yeah.
  550. # [20:24] <KaOSoFt> HTML5Shiv was a life-saver for a lot of people.
  551. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> Shiv the printer!
  552. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> AFAIK, no one's figured out how to. ;_;
  553. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-experiments/phase-01.html http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-experiments/phase-02.html
  554. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> Any blogs giving an example of how the html5 ie printing problem works?
  555. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> Maybe I can look into it.
  556. # [20:27] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  557. # [20:28] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- None that I know of. :'(
  558. # [20:28] * Parts: gasull (~gasull@c-98-210-153-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("Leaving.")
  559. # [20:29] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- I'm going to (try to) check all your SandBox examples. http://sandbox.thewikies.com/
  560. # [20:29] <KaOSoFt> :D
  561. # [20:29] <JonathanNeal> Don't judge me, brah.
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  566. # [20:35] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- Phase 02 images don't work.
  567. # [20:35] <KaOSoFt> In Experiments, I mean.
  568. # [20:37] <KaOSoFt> Is this alright?
  569. # [20:37] <KaOSoFt> article, aside, figure, footer, header,hgroup, menu, nav, section {display: block;}
  570. # [20:37] <KaOSoFt> Am I missing anything?
  571. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> Check JonathanNeal's HTML default stylesheet.
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  573. # [20:41] <KaOSoFt> Hmm... where? I don't find it in the sandbox folder, not in the document's own CSS.
  574. # [20:43] <KaOSoFt> nor*
  575. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> I didn't bookmark it last time I saw it; ask JonathanNeal
  576. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> You mean http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.css ?
  577. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah
  578. # [20:45] <KaOSoFt> Hmm, it's a reset stylesheet. Good, let's check it out.
  579. # [20:45] <KaOSoFt> Thanks.
  580. # [20:48] <KaOSoFt> It specifies everything.
  581. # [20:48] <KaOSoFt> -_-
  582. # [20:49] <TabAtkins> Yes, it's meant to be an example of what an actual UA stylesheet for HTML5 could look like.
  583. # [20:49] <KaOSoFt> UA means a browser?
  584. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> Yeah. User Agent.
  585. # [20:50] <KaOSoFt> User Agent, oh, yes.
  586. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> In this context, browser, but it can mean lots of things.
  587. # [20:50] <KaOSoFt> Yeah, I know.
  588. # [20:50] <miketaylr> should that include stuff like :valid, :invalid, :out-of-range, etc?
  589. # [20:51] <miketaylr> or would that be handled elsewhere?
  590. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> HTML5 doesn't specify any default renderings for those.
  591. # [20:51] * miketaylr doesn't know
  592. # [20:51] <miketaylr> ah.
  593. # [20:51] <KaOSoFt> Hmm... and while this should provide a good example, is that CSS publicized so that UA developers know of it?
  594. # [20:51] <miketaylr> yeah, gotcha TabAtkins
  595. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> KaOSoFt: It's just a distillation of what HTML5 says, in a perhaps-more-understandable and centralized format.
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  600. # [21:21] <dglazkov> TabAtkins has the best brownies
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  605. # [21:36] <JonathanNeal> I found a way to work around the HTML5 printing bug in IE
  606. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: ^^^
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  611. # [21:44] <miketaylr> JonathanNeal: how!?!??!
  612. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> Gah, I knew I wanted to tell someone else, but I forgot who. Sorry, miketaylr.
  613. # [21:44] <miketaylr> haha no worries :)
  614. # [21:44] <miketaylr> all of my css expression hack attempts failed
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  617. # [21:46] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- Link, or it doesn't exist...!
  618. # [21:46] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  619. # [21:53] <JonathanNeal> Okay.
  620. # [21:54] <miketaylr> JonathanNeal: i'm super curious :)
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  622. # [21:56] <KaOSoFt> http://blog.whatwg.org/usability-testing-html5
  623. # [21:56] <KaOSoFt> Interesting conclusions.
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  625. # [22:08] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: is it using behavior: ?
  626. # [22:11] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb)
  627. # [22:16] <JonathanNeal> no
  628. # [22:18] <Hixie> KaOSoFt: microdata is very new, i wouldn't expect many people to be using it today
  629. # [22:19] <Hixie> KaOSoFt: however, it has the support of some pretty big companies, e.g. google added support for it recently
  630. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> I just now wrote a quick tutorial on Microdata this is hopefully informative and accessible. Review comments welcome: http://www.xanthir.com/document/document.php?id=a3c2c6bb66f089ef0cec212c7409c83b7f4ab3af217f1cc4bb664a135a7d172c364c625be73b7da5750fd01bed1ea739cb7fa61de8fc7f46d01334df1164d70e
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  632. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> Or, less ridiculous, http://www.xanthir.com/:gg5
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  638. # [22:28] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- HTML5 + Internet Explorer = Print? :'(
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  640. # [22:29] <paul_irish> he's got a solution. sounds really promising. it's coming... :)
  641. # [22:29] <KaOSoFt> I need to set up a blog. That solution will be my first entry on it.
  642. # [22:29] <KaOSoFt> ^_^
  643. # [22:30] <paul_irish> do it!
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  645. # [22:34] <KaOSoFt> Arggh, I guess WordPress is the fastest solution.
  646. # [22:36] <JonathanNeal> thanks paul_irish, I'll have something up today.
  647. # [22:37] <KaOSoFt> My first blog entry will make me rich...!
  648. # [22:37] <KaOSoFt> :D
  649. # [22:38] * Joins: CROS2 (~contact@pool-98-117-247-92.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net)
  650. # [22:41] * Quits: fishd (~fishd@nat/google/x-mhxubtdolnblxxkj) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  651. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, is the author of document.php a big fan of GUIDs and thinks it's easier to use SHA512 than figure out MAC addresses or such? Or maybe they just want really secure content-addressable storage?
  652. # [22:53] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  653. # [22:56] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: Whirlpool hash, actually.
  654. # [22:57] <TabAtkins_> And I'm the author. Woo!
  655. # [22:58] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@dslb-084-060-038-129.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  656. # [23:00] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, so why are you using 512-bit hashes for id's?
  657. # [23:01] <Hixie> he's VERY prolific
  658. # [23:01] <jgraham> Y'know I was just about to ask that
  659. # [23:02] * Joins: othree_ (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  660. # [23:02] <jgraham> hint: if it's longer than the hash you get when you check it into your VCS, it's too long :)
  661. # [23:02] <TabAtkins_> Because shrug, that's why.
  662. # [23:02] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FD97.cable.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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  665. # [23:02] <Hixie> to use up the entire address space over 100 years of blogging, you'd have to blog at a rate of 4.2 x 10^144 Hz
  666. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> jgraham, well, git uses SHA1, which isn't advisable if you want actual security . . .
  667. # [23:03] <Hixie> that is an INSANE frequency
  668. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> Hixie, but only the square root of that to have a high chance of collision, right? That's much more reasonable.
  669. # [23:04] <Hixie> um, even to avoid a collision, if you were to have that frequency as EM waves, it'd still be 40 orders of magnitude narrower wavelength than the width of an atom
  670. # [23:04] * Joins: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-118-237.dynamic.qsc.de)
  671. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> Well, so you can just write a lot of blog posts in parallel.
  672. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> A million monkeys and all. Or 10^60 monkeys, whatever it takes.
  673. # [23:05] <TabAtkins_> Dude, I coded my document writer in like 10 minutes. I had just used whirlpool for something else, because it's fun, so it was on my mind.
  674. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> (I'm not sure there's enough mass in the observable universe to create 10^60 monkeys.)
  675. # [23:05] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.131) (Quit: Leaving...)
  676. # [23:05] <TabAtkins_> They'd have to be very small monkey, but you could.
  677. # [23:06] <Hixie> very small
  678. # [23:06] <Hixie> there's only ~10^80 atoms in the visible universe
  679. # [23:06] <Hixie> and most of that is hydrogen
  680. # [23:06] <Hixie> not so useful for making monkeys
  681. # [23:07] <Philip`> http://www.guzer.com/pictures/very-small-monkey.jpg ?
  682. # [23:07] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-94-32.dynamic.qsc.de) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  683. # [23:08] <Philip`> You could use the hydrogen to make inflatable monkeys
  684. # [23:08] <Hixie> there's about 10^27 atoms in that monkey assuming he's about 1kg
  685. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> That looks like a heck of a lot less than 1 kg.
  686. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> Hmm, maybe not so much less.
  687. # [23:09] <Hixie> so that's 10^53 monkeys max
  688. # [23:09] <TabAtkins_> Yes, by "very small" I meant "microscopic".
  689. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> I dunno, I'm not a primatologist.
  690. # [23:09] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~kaosoft@190.24.156.162) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  691. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, it has to be big enough to type blog posts at random, otherwise it won't work.
  692. # [23:10] <TabAtkins_> By the time I'm converting the mass of the universe into monkeys, I think I can devise alternate typing methods.
  693. # [23:10] <Philip`> How much entropy does a typical monkey contain?
  694. # [23:10] <Hixie> also alternate hashing methods
  695. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it'd probably be relatively easy to switch to a 1024-bit hash, if you have the resources to make that many monkeys.
  696. # [23:13] * Quits: ROBOd2 (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  697. # [23:15] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: You know when the TAG said URLs were opaque identifiers you weren't supposed to take it as a commandment to make them as opaque as possible
  698. # [23:16] <TabAtkins_> WELL MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE SUGGESTED IT THEN.
  699. # [23:16] * TabAtkins_ sulks.
  700. # [23:16] <Dashiva> jgraham: How do you know we weren't supposed to?
  701. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> jgraham, that's not as opaque as possible. It has "document.php" in it.
  702. # [23:18] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
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  704. # [23:20] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: That's why I provided the more opaque but less entropic link /:gg5
  705. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> "less entropic"?
  706. # [23:20] <TabAtkins_> lower entropy
  707. # [23:21] <TabAtkins_> i was constrained in my wording by parallelism.
  708. # [23:21] <TabAtkins_> more/less
  709. # [23:22] * Quits: CROS2 (~contact@pool-98-117-247-92.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  710. # [23:22] * Joins: CROS2 (~contact@pool-98-117-247-92.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net)
  711. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> How is it lower-entropy?
  712. # [23:22] <TabAtkins_> Less possible states.
  713. # [23:23] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~kaosoft@190.24.156.162)
  714. # [23:25] * Quits: murz (~murz@wcproxy.msnbc.com) (Quit: murz)
  715. # [23:26] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  716. # [23:28] <AryehGregor> What's your definition of microstates and macrostates here?
  717. # [23:28] <JonathanNeal> Back
  718. # [23:28] * TabAtkins_ waves hands wildly.
  719. # [23:28] <AryehGregor> I mean, you say a macrostate is low-entropy if there are few microstates corresponding to it.
  720. # [23:29] <TabAtkins_> I really don't have a sufficient background to properly defend my statement.
  721. # [23:31] * Joins: murz (~murz@wcproxy.msnbc.com)
  722. # [23:32] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins_ I'll try to have that html5 ie print thing shared soon enough.
  723. # [23:32] <JonathanNeal> I hope I don't come across like a dick, I just want to give something that has had some testing.
  724. # [23:32] <TabAtkins_> Man, whatever, dick.
  725. # [23:32] * TabAtkins_ pfft.
  726. # [23:35] <Hixie> ok, finally finished dealing with e-mail
  727. # [23:35] <Hixie> now to find some food
  728. # [23:35] <Hixie> bbiab
  729. # [23:36] <JonathanNeal> :|
  730. # [23:37] * Joins: estellevw_ (~estellevw@adsl-76-202-159-123.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  731. # [23:39] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: Bitch.
  732. # [23:39] * TabAtkins_ takes it to the street.
  733. # [23:40] * Joins: dimich (~dimich@nat/google/x-bhhgcianbnzjfsdj)
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  735. # [23:40] * estellevw_ is now known as estellevw
  736. # [23:46] * Quits: yael (~c0646811@gateway/web/freenode/x-gygwtxbczweklwux) (Quit: Page closed)
  737. # Session Close: Fri Apr 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)