/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 09 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- Internet Explorer Collection could help you in testing: http://finalbuilds.edskes.net/iecollection.htm
  4. # [00:06] <KaOSoFt> In fact, I had not tried it on Wine. Perhaps I should...
  5. # [00:06] * KaOSoFt is downloading the IE Collection to try it on Ubuntu
  6. # [00:07] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  7. # [00:08] <paul_irish> dunno about through wine, but the spoon.net browsers are the most solid (aside from the VPC vm's) alternate IE versions there are
  8. # [00:09] * Quits: murz (~murz@wcproxy.msnbc.com) (Quit: murz)
  9. # [00:09] <KaOSoFt> I think I had visited that site before, but it didn't have all those programs.
  10. # [00:10] <KaOSoFt> Hmm... I don't see IE.
  11. # [00:12] <paul_irish> http://spoon.net/Browsers/
  12. # [00:13] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@12.33.239.250) (Quit: thom yorke and flying lotus ya'll)
  13. # [00:14] <KaOSoFt> Ohh, I see, since I'm on Linux it says IE is currently unavailable on my device, which explains why I didn't see it in the Browsers section.
  14. # [00:15] <KaOSoFt> In fact, ALL of it says my device is not supported. :'(
  15. # [00:16] <KaOSoFt> The a element without an href attribute now represents a "placeholder link". It can also contain flow content rather than being restricted to phrase content.
  16. # [00:16] <KaOSoFt> What does "placeholder link" mean?
  17. # [00:19] <JonathanNeal> IT WORKS!!!!!!
  18. # [00:20] <KaOSoFt> Link, or it doesn't exist...!
  19. # [00:20] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  20. # [00:21] <KaOSoFt> "dir has been obsoleted in favor of ul". Does this include dir as in 'dir="ltr"'?
  21. # [00:23] <jgraham> KaOSoFt: A placeholder link is typically something that a script will come and fill in with a href value later on
  22. # [00:25] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-092-078-143-174.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  23. # [00:25] <KaOSoFt> Hmm, I see. I didn't use those because it wasn't unobtrusive, but if they are to be allowed now, all hail HTML%
  24. # [00:25] <KaOSoFt> HTML5!*
  25. # [00:32] <annevk> wow TabAtkins; URL fail :p
  26. # [00:33] <annevk> Hixie's URLs are not that great, but you are pushing it
  27. # [00:34] <TabAtkins_> KaOSoFt: That passage is talking about <dir>, not @dir. Completely different things.
  28. # [00:36] <TabAtkins_> annevk: I'll note that the urls are much better for me. The one I share is specifically made to be unguessable. I just go a little overboard with it. ^_^
  29. # [00:37] * Joins: fishd (~fishd@nat/google/x-ogwlgwiobkpvnlak)
  30. # [00:37] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: Why do you want an unguessable URL?
  31. # [00:38] <jgraham> I mean isn't it easier just to set up authentication?
  32. # [00:38] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: No.
  33. # [00:39] <jgraham> It seems easier to leak a URL
  34. # [00:40] <jgraham> (becasue you give it to someone, they link to it, google finds it, and you have lost)
  35. # [00:40] <jgraham> (whereas if you give them a username / password they implicitly understand it is supposed to be private)
  36. # [00:42] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  37. # [00:42] <TabAtkins_> That's fine. Once I've given it to someone, I obviously want it to be findable.
  38. # [00:43] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Leaving)
  39. # [00:43] <jgraham> I have occasionally given out links to people that I did not want to be public (or, sometimes, they did not want to be public)
  40. # [00:43] * Philip` once saw a site that encrypted a password plus today's date rounded to 6 months, to generate a URL for a private page
  41. # [00:44] <Philip`> and if you got the wrong password then you'd get the wrong URL, and if you had the URL then it'd only be valid for 6 months
  42. # [00:44] <Philip`> but I could find a few of those 6-month URLs since they'd leaked out onto Google
  43. # [00:45] <Philip`> and (since the encryption algorithm wasn't very good) use them to work out the password
  44. # [00:45] <Philip`> which then allowed access to the most recent page
  45. # [00:45] <jgraham> So I don't really buy the idea that everything shared is implicitly public
  46. # [00:46] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: You don't have to. I was expressing my own feelings on content that I share. ^_^
  47. # [00:47] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: Just don't be surprised if this happens every time you share a link :)
  48. # [00:47] <TabAtkins_> Philip`: Was it actually encrypted, or just hashed?
  49. # [00:47] <jgraham> Where by "this" I mean an inquisition about your URL scheme
  50. # [00:47] <TabAtkins_> Also, that seems pretty bad, since you have to prevent password collisions, and thus leak information about other pages on the system.
  51. # [00:48] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: That's why I need to remember to share my shorturls instead. ^_^
  52. # [00:48] <TabAtkins_> Also, why I need to finally sit down and build myself a proper blogging platform out of the tools I have lying around.
  53. # [00:48] <Philip`> TabAtkins_: It was some rubbish JS hash-like algorithm
  54. # [00:49] <TabAtkins_> Philip`: Ah, homerolled crypto. Nice.
  55. # [00:49] <jgraham> It is long past bedtime
  56. # [00:49] <jgraham> Goodnight
  57. # [00:50] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  58. # [00:50] <KaOSoFt> Goodnight.
  59. # [00:51] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  61. # [00:53] <annevk> jgraham, good point
  62. # [00:54] <annevk> I'm failing with bedtimes
  63. # [00:55] <annevk> Well, I value fun over sleep, which is something that does not scale, but I've yet to come to terms with that
  64. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> annevk: Surefile solution: get married.
  65. # [00:58] * Quits: fishd (~fishd@nat/google/x-ogwlgwiobkpvnlak) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  66. # [00:58] <annevk> I don't think I'm ready for that yet :)
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  69. # [01:00] <Hixie> TabAtkins: how does getting married help with that problem?
  70. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> Well, it makes sure I get to bed before midnight every day.
  71. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> If Rachel's gone for some reason, my bedtimes hover around 3 or 4am
  72. # [01:01] <Hixie> i just ended up making carey go to bed around 4am...
  73. # [01:02] <JonathanNeal> Ready?
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  81. # [01:33] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- Yes, yes, yes!
  82. # [01:34] <KaOSoFt> Well, I used to go to sleep at 1 AM or 2 AM, but since a month ago I started a routine in which I went to sleep early (9 PM, 10 PM) and woke up early as well (5 AM, 6AM).
  83. # [01:35] <KaOSoFt> It's tough in the beginning, but after a while you get used to it.
  84. # [01:35] <JonathanNeal> Well ... there you go.
  85. # [01:35] <KaOSoFt> There is one flaw, though: you get sleepy earlier. I NEVER got sleepier with my old schedule.
  86. # [01:36] <KaOSoFt> Arggh, I don't have IE here. Let me check a server.
  87. # [01:36] <KaOSoFt> >_>
  88. # [01:38] <KaOSoFt> Shim? 0_o
  89. # [01:39] <JonathanNeal> Verified, IE6, 7, 8
  90. # [01:41] <KaOSoFt> Black borders, white filled, right?
  91. # [01:42] <KaOSoFt> Hmm... let me check on Firefox, because Chrome doesn't have Page preview.
  92. # [01:44] <KaOSoFt> It works on Internet Explorer 7.
  93. # [01:45] <KaOSoFt> Now I'm checking ieHTML5.js
  94. # [01:46] <KaOSoFt> It replaces block elements with <div>, and in-line with <span>, right?
  95. # [01:47] <KaOSoFt> I'm a novice for everything Web related, besides browsing.
  96. # [01:47] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  97. # [01:47] <JonathanNeal> Yes, please do not blog this until it's had a chance
  98. # [01:48] <JonathanNeal> to get bug tested by TabAtkins, ben alman, paul irish, and some of the other guys I trust.
  99. # [01:48] <KaOSoFt> Yeah, I'm going to keep testing it at home anyways.
  100. # [01:48] <JonathanNeal> Okay :) thanks
  101. # [01:49] <KaOSoFt> I haven't fully set up my blogging environment anyways.
  102. # [01:49] <KaOSoFt> I'm still deciding which template to use.
  103. # [01:50] <KaOSoFt> At least until I've fully coded an HTML5 template.
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  105. # [01:53] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- You had done research on it before, or you just started when I brought the topic up?
  106. # [01:54] <JonathanNeal> Haha, well actually it was because you were talking about it.
  107. # [01:55] <JonathanNeal> Or whoever brought it up in here or the other room.
  108. # [01:55] <KaOSoFt> Well, I guess (looking at the code) it was simple logic, after all.
  109. # [01:57] <KaOSoFt> I mean, the implementation method was the "hard?" thing.
  110. # [01:57] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  111. # [01:57] <JonathanNeal> No, it was just a matter of someone doing it.
  112. # [01:57] <KaOSoFt> Yeah, well, that. :P
  113. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> Until I heard the fuss today, I didn't think it was a big deal (maybe it isn't) but at least it's fixed now.
  114. # [01:58] <KaOSoFt> By the way, what does "/*@cc_on!@*/" mean? I've seen it on HTML5Shiv as well.
  115. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> Google it! It's an IE proprietary thing, and I'm using it to keep other browsers from doing anything unnecessary.
  116. # [01:59] <KaOSoFt> Ugh, IE, as always.
  117. # [02:01] * Quits: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  118. # [02:01] <KaOSoFt> So, IE reads JavaScript even for Page previewing, or your code did something to the DOM?
  119. # [02:01] <KaOSoFt> This is me trying to look like I know "something".
  120. # [02:02] <KaOSoFt> Oh, you're improving the example.
  121. # [02:02] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.40) (Quit: othermaciej)
  122. # [02:02] <KaOSoFt> You're TEH man.
  123. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> Ok, interesting. Not so much a fix as a workaround, but sure.
  124. # [02:03] <Hixie> ok updated my -88 change proposal and sent a new one
  125. # [02:04] <JonathanNeal> It doesn't fix the bug, but it fixes the problem.
  126. # [02:04] <gsnedders> Damned books that end on lame cliffhangers that make me want to get the next book
  127. # [02:05] <gsnedders> (and are generally shit)
  128. # [02:05] <TabAtkins> Solution: stop reading shit books
  129. # [02:06] <gsnedders> But I want to know what happens!
  130. # [02:06] <daedb_> Which book?
  131. # [02:06] <gsnedders> daedb_: I'm sorry, but I don't want to embarrass myself that much
  132. # [02:07] <daedb_> It can't be that bad :)
  133. # [02:07] <gsnedders> Oh yes it can.
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  135. # [02:08] <gsnedders> I mean, I may be willing to admit I think Twilight (at least the first book) is awesome, but to drop this low?
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  137. # [02:09] <gsnedders> Also: there aren't enough books remaining to buy to be able to get them for three for two.
  138. # [02:09] <gsnedders> And I don't want to buy them full price.
  139. # [02:09] <gsnedders> They're too shit for that.
  140. # [02:14] * daedb_ was not aware that there's something more embarrasing on the internet than Twilight...
  141. # [02:14] <gsnedders> Oh, really, there is.
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  143. # [02:14] <gsnedders> Imagine Twilight without the only good bit.
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  145. # [02:15] <gsnedders> (I guess the fact I'm implying the very existance of a good bit of Twilight implies I'm a teenage girl)
  146. # [02:15] <daedb_> To be fair, I know just about nothing about Twilight except that it has vampires and everyone (on the internet at least) seems to hate it
  147. # [02:15] <gsnedders> (Oh well. All the teenage girls I hung around with the entire time at school concluded I was a teenage girl.)
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  149. # [02:19] <gsnedders> (Those same girls may have something to do with the fact I read Twilight. It may have taken them around three years to bully me into it, though.)
  150. # [02:21] * gsnedders heads off, after having embarrassed himself on the intarwebs
  151. # [02:38] <estellevw> "I just fixed the #html5 printing bug in #IE - woohoo!" - yay!
  152. # [02:39] <estellevw> oops, was quoting. I didn't solve it. jonathan neal did
  153. # [02:39] <gsnedders> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-April/012235.html
  154. # [02:39] <estellevw> anyone have an url?
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  156. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Yeah, that causes some grumbling over here. "Hey, we like that multiprocess idea you guys have so much, we decided to do it completely differently!" ^_^
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  158. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> estellevw: JonathanNeal is still doing testing/tweaking, so he's not releasing it publicly quite yet. We'll let you know. ^_^
  159. # [02:42] <estellevw> i wanted to retweet, but figured it would be more interesting with a link.
  160. # [02:43] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Having an API designed for it, and to be totally non-blocking, seems better than the current state of Chrom(e|ium)
  161. # [02:43] <estellevw> TabAtkins: congrats on the Google gig by the way. how was your first (second) week?
  162. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> I have no opinion on the technical merits of either approach. Just commenting.
  163. # [02:44] <gsnedders> Yeah, I can't imagine is being brilliant ;P
  164. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> estellevw: Doing good! It's nice to have the freedom to do just spec work without stealing time from my "real" job.
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  166. # [02:44] * gsnedders needs to work out whether he'll have a job in September
  167. # [02:45] <gsnedders> Just, like, minor decision in life
  168. # [02:45] <Dashiva> Are you becoming a redundancy?
  169. # [02:45] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Come to America and we'll land you a job with one of us stateside browsers.
  170. # [02:45] <gsnedders> No, just a question of whether I go to uni or not.
  171. # [02:45] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: heh
  172. # [02:46] <Dashiva> I'm sure he has a non-compete clause
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  175. # [02:47] <gsnedders> Some of my colleagues seem me to want to stay and not go to uni for fear of me doing not returning and going to a competitor
  176. # [02:47] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Equally, none of them would hire me without a degree
  177. # [02:48] * Dashiva might be to blame there
  178. # [02:48] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: You think my degree had a thing to do with me getting my job?
  179. # [02:48] <TabAtkins> Answer: no.
  180. # [02:49] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: In general it seems a requirement, but one that actually is just expected as a baseline and otherwise ignored
  181. # [02:49] <TabAtkins> In general, yes. In specific, once you get past the non-engineers doing recruiting, you're golden.
  182. # [02:50] <KaOSoFt> I wish I'd have your chance.
  183. # [02:51] <KaOSoFt> I've been in the same spot for two years now, and I think I deserve better.
  184. # [02:51] <gsnedders> Like, I'm nowhere near even meeting the requirements for an internship at Google
  185. # [02:51] <KaOSoFt> </hater>
  186. # [02:52] <KaOSoFt> I went back to finish my degree only because I saw engineers earning a whole lot more than I do, and in the end (and by my boss orders), it was me who did the job. :'(
  187. # [02:53] <KaOSoFt> Once I get my degree, I'll start sending curriculums everywhere if I don't get promoted here.
  188. # [02:58] <KaOSoFt> Time to leave (work). Goodnight.
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  196. # [03:13] <JonathanNeal> Back home!
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  220. # [04:57] <boblet> hey all. anyone know of any spec repos that accept patches as a way of filing bugs? I found http://github.com/html5/spec but looks like Manu isn’t auto-updating it
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  267. # [08:10] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, TabAtkins_, you around?
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  271. # [08:23] <JonathanNeal> Hey all.
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  279. # [08:52] * estellevw hears crickets chirping
  280. # [08:53] <othermaciej> hi!
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  283. # [08:58] <JonathanNeal> haha
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  285. # [08:58] <JonathanNeal> Boy, I was hoping we could coordinate testing for this html5 print thing.
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  294. # [09:33] <estellevw> i can help you test
  295. # [09:33] <estellevw> i am on XP on VMWare with Real IE8 and faux IE6
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  305. # [10:24] <JonathanNeal> estellevw, you still available?
  306. # [10:24] <JonathanNeal> I was working on a new version.
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  310. # [10:36] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4271 - any cache manifest people here?
  311. # [10:41] <annevk> the reason is for debugging
  312. # [10:41] <annevk> you need to add the online whitelist flag
  313. # [10:41] <annevk> if you want it to work
  314. # [10:42] <nessy> Hixie: around?
  315. # [10:43] <Hixie> nessy: vaguely
  316. # [10:43] <nessy> I just submitted my first bug and wanted to know if that's the right form: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9452
  317. # [10:43] * Joins: hasather (~david@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  318. # [10:44] <nessy> if you don't have time to look, that's ok, too
  319. # [10:45] <Hixie> looks fine to me
  320. # [10:45] <nessy> ok, thanks
  321. # [10:45] <nessy> I'll do at least one more :)
  322. # [10:45] <othermaciej> hey nessy
  323. # [10:45] <nessy> hey othermaciej :)
  324. # [10:45] <Hixie> nessy: thank _you_! :-)
  325. # [10:45] <nessy> finally getting to it!
  326. # [10:46] <nessy> pleasure :)
  327. # [10:46] <othermaciej> woot, multitrack API
  328. # [10:46] <nessy> the recent a11y TF F2F was most interesting - and actually somewhat productive
  329. # [10:47] <othermaciej> yeah?
  330. # [10:47] <othermaciej> MikeSmith sent me some notes, but I don't know the details
  331. # [10:47] <nessy> need to work over the caption proposal a bit before submitting, but I'm also planning to get that into the bug tracker today
  332. # [10:48] <nessy> well, the biggest issue that held back the two existing proposals were really the SMIL people's objections
  333. # [10:48] <nessy> but we managed to explain that their objections are not really with our proposals, but with the lack of SMIL functionality in HTML5
  334. # [10:48] <othermaciej> are you going to submit these as change proposals to the WG as well or just as bugs?
  335. # [10:48] <othermaciej> that's good
  336. # [10:48] <nessy> which for the state of media in HTML5 is a fair state IMO
  337. # [10:49] <nessy> well, Mike told me to submit bugs
  338. # [10:49] <othermaciej> Multitrack API seems particularly unrelated to SMIL
  339. # [10:49] <nessy> they are essentially change proposals, so now I don't know if I should also submit change proposals and how to do so
  340. # [10:49] <nessy> indeed!
  341. # [10:49] <othermaciej> to submit a Change Proposal you just need to send mail to public-html with the contents or a link to it
  342. # [10:50] <nessy> I think I will do that, too
  343. # [10:50] <nessy> probably even to WHATWG
  344. # [10:50] <nessy> the more eyes are aware of it and look at it, the better
  345. # [10:50] <othermaciej> definitely
  346. # [10:51] <othermaciej> I'm sure there are potential refinements in both cases
  347. # [10:51] <othermaciej> I am glad it is moving forward
  348. # [10:52] <nessy> so am I - it was really hard to do without stepping on people's toes
  349. # [10:53] <boblet> Validator.nu text field input + validate just reloads homepage. just me or known issue?
  350. # [10:53] <nessy> but I was very surprised about the lack of technical understanding of the HTML5 media elements with some folks - that was really the core learning of the F2F
  351. # [10:54] <nessy> it's probably natural not to be experts across everything
  352. # [10:54] <othermaciej> nessy: what were some of the misunderstandings?
  353. # [10:54] <nessy> still - that lack of understanding held back progress, which is what really surprised me
  354. # [10:55] <nessy> well, one expectation is that just by introducing audio and video into HTML5, HTML5 will magically do everything that DAISY was built for
  355. # [10:55] <nessy> all the table of contents stuff, direct access to content, sequencing of content etc
  356. # [10:56] <nessy> all of this is, of course, possible using javascript with HTML5 now, but the expectation was that it'll just be in the declarative parts
  357. # [10:56] <othermaciej> I don't really understand what DAISY is
  358. # [10:56] <nessy> think of talking books
  359. # [10:56] <nessy> seen any of those?
  360. # [10:56] <othermaciej> like audiobooks?
  361. # [10:56] <othermaciej> I'm familiar with the concept, though not a user myself
  362. # [10:56] <nessy> not just CDs that are read out books
  363. # [10:57] <othermaciej> I'm looking at the DAISY consortium page
  364. # [10:57] <nessy> more books and news etc that has been read in chapters and is directly accessible
  365. # [10:58] <nessy> http://www.readhowyouwant.com/formats/audio-format.aspx <- is quite instructive
  366. # [10:58] <Hixie> like audible.com books?
  367. # [10:58] <asmodai> oh nice - http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/lorentz/
  368. # [10:58] <othermaciej> do audible.com book have structure?
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  370. # [10:59] <Hixie> well they have chapters and stuff
  371. # [10:59] <Hixie> like a regular MPEG file
  372. # [10:59] <Hixie> not sure what else you would want from an audio book
  373. # [10:59] <nessy> e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgWOoQ6FgA0
  374. # [10:59] <annevk> blargh, Tyler's rhetoric is starting to annoy me
  375. # [11:00] <othermaciej> well at least I got him to comment on what "subset" means
  376. # [11:01] <annevk> the continued insistence on there being a problem with CORS while there's not at all agreement on that; saying UMP exists to solve the non-definition of credentials in CORS while I pointed out several months ago that was a fixed issue, etc.
  377. # [11:02] <annevk> he doesn't want to work together, he just wants to push his thing through
  378. # [11:03] <othermaciej> well, I expect Apple at least will ignore it either way
  379. # [11:03] <annevk> in almost similar tactic to the XHTML2 WG; by defining something that cannot be implemented and therefore avoiding all the critical steps in the WD-process
  380. # [11:03] <othermaciej> I wonder if any vendor will announce plan to implement UMP
  381. # [11:03] <annevk> (the XHTML2 WG used modularization as an excuse to say it would not directly be implemented but rather other things would build on top of it and those would be implemented and tested)
  382. # [11:03] <Hixie> if there's no vendor willing to implement, we should reguse to publish it
  383. # [11:04] <Hixie> there's no point working on things without vendor support
  384. # [11:04] <othermaciej> there's the highly dubious "it's already sort of supported if you support CORS" argument
  385. # [11:05] <othermaciej> so far no vendors but Apple have stated their intent on the list
  386. # [11:05] <othermaciej> though privately it seem like Google folks aren't really interested either
  387. # [11:05] <annevk> pretty much the same as when Steven claimed Opera supported XHTML2
  388. # [11:05] <Hixie> if it's a strict subset of CORS and all the vendors are implementing CORS then UMP doesn't seem to add anything
  389. # [11:06] <othermaciej> it adds purity of essence
  390. # [11:06] <nessy> (man, there are no short videos to explain DAISY! this is one is a bit better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9gKj2hLFoo )
  391. # [11:06] <othermaciej> otherwise the Origin header will introduce a foreign substance into our precious bodily fluid
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  393. # [11:08] <othermaciej> it sound like DAISY is something you could implement given JavaScript and HTML5, but it's not just built-in HTML5 functionality
  394. # [11:10] <nessy> indeed
  395. # [11:10] <nessy> that's what is hard to explain
  396. # [11:10] <nessy> and many in the a11y TF want to drive HTML5 to support it declaratively
  397. # [11:11] <annevk> more crazy markup languages?
  398. # [11:12] <annevk> o_O
  399. # [11:12] <othermaciej> that would be a pretty complicated and specialized addition
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  401. # [11:13] <annevk> yeah that's not going to happen
  402. # [11:13] <othermaciej> maybe worth adding someday, but not as important as critical things like captioning and the like
  403. # [11:14] <nessy> check out this video at about 2min in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxI8zhLqs3M
  404. # [11:15] <othermaciej> so is the interesting bit the fact that it syncs with the text?
  405. # [11:15] <nessy> I think over time we might get those features - but right now is too early
  406. # [11:15] <nessy> it has all sorts of interesting features
  407. # [11:15] <othermaciej> IBooks btw will be accessible via audio without the need to make a special version with audio files in it
  408. # [11:16] <nessy> you can search through long audio recordings by jumping from section to section, search by text, also get screenreader functionality in visible stuff like the Web etc
  409. # [11:16] <nessy> what standard to IBooks follow?
  410. # [11:17] <othermaciej> they are basically ePub
  411. # [11:17] <othermaciej> except that we don't restrict them to the epub subset of HTML
  412. # [11:17] <othermaciej> arbitrary XHTML5 can be used
  413. # [11:18] <jgraham> othermaciej: Man, now I feel conflicted. You embraced and extended a standrd, but did it by making it use another open standard and made it better
  414. # [11:18] <othermaciej> or at least, anything that WebKit can support
  415. # [11:18] <jgraham> Does it restrict to XML?
  416. # [11:19] <nessy> ePub is also a DAISY standard
  417. # [11:20] <jgraham> (I think ePub would be a lot better if it were HTML+an optional manifest and some conventions about how to extract data from the HTML)
  418. # [11:20] <jgraham> (and honestly it would be nice if you could avoid the manifest)
  419. # [11:21] <nessy> interesting - maybe Apple has already managed to marry the two worlds ...
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  423. # [11:24] <othermaciej> jgraham: it's actually typically multiple XHTML files - one per chapter
  424. # [11:25] <othermaciej> jgraham: I actually don't know offhand if you have to use XML or can use the HTML syntax - most existing epub books are XHTML though
  425. # [11:25] <zcorpan> "though ~5% of another sample were using the pragma incorrectly anyway [2]."
  426. # [11:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: i don't see how to draw that conclusion from [2] http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/analysis.txt ?
  427. # [11:27] <Hixie> oh i misread it
  428. # [11:27] <Hixie> it's cases of content-language, not cases of bad values of content-language
  429. # [11:28] <Hixie> so i guess it's just repeating the previous datum
  430. # [11:28] <zcorpan> indeed
  431. # [11:29] <jgraham> othermaciej: Yeah, I didn't mean "a single HTML file" so much as "an arbitary number of HTML files"
  432. # [11:29] <jgraham> I believe ePub theoretically requires well formed XML, which would explain most books having that format
  433. # [11:29] <othermaciej> jgraham: it basically is XHTML plus a manifest - I'm actually not sure if text/html would work
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  435. # [11:30] <othermaciej> once I get an iPad I'll try sticking handmade epub books on it to see
  436. # [11:30] * zcorpan wonders whether ePub will go down the legacy mobile path and treat application/xhtml+xml as text/html
  437. # [11:30] <jgraham> othermaciej: As far as I can tell both the manifest and the chapter files are supposed to be well-formed XML
  438. # [11:31] <jgraham> With namespaces and all sorts of crap
  439. # [11:31] <jgraham> It seems altogether unnecessary
  440. # [11:33] <othermaciej> jgraham: definitely "supposed to" according to epub - I don't know if our implementation enforces that restriction
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  446. # [12:02] <hsivonen> It's kinda sad that the ePub folks are still tracking the XHTML2 WG's stuff instead of XHTML5
  447. # [12:03] <hsivonen> is the book reader on iPad using WebKit?
  448. # [12:03] <annevk> othermaciej just said so
  449. # [12:03] <hsivonen> oh
  450. # [12:03] <annevk> it supports whatever WebKit supports
  451. # [12:03] * hsivonen reads scrollback
  452. # [12:04] <othermaciej> it's basically epub + xhtml5
  453. # [12:04] <hsivonen> so what's the deal with reports saying you can't use <video> in ePub on iPad?
  454. # [12:04] <othermaciej> dunno, could be a bug
  455. # [12:04] <annevk> ooh, WebKit is doing <progress> already to some extent
  456. # [12:04] <hsivonen> and is CSS restricted somehow to make all the books look the same?
  457. # [12:04] <othermaciej> maybe there are artificial restrictions I don't know about
  458. # [12:04] <othermaciej> books can include their own CSS
  459. # [12:07] <annevk> ah, Nokia is adding it
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  466. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Is there an up-to-date report of PICS support in browsers?
  467. # [12:45] <hsivonen> hmm. PICS in ungooglable
  468. # [12:46] * hsivonen guesses that Google treats "PICS" as a synonym for "pictures"
  469. # [12:46] * hsivonen files a search quality complaint
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  471. # [12:47] <Philip`> Searching for "+pics" finds the right PICS, about a dozen places down
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  473. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  474. # [12:51] <othermaciej> Safari has no PICS support
  475. # [12:51] <othermaciej> I believe IE does have it
  476. # [12:53] <hsivonen> so PICS label is basically an IE only feature
  477. # [12:53] <hsivonen> and in the wishful W3C land PICS has been superseded by an RDF vocabulary
  478. # [12:53] * hsivonen wonders if IE support the RDF thingy
  479. # [12:54] <hsivonen> did FCC and FTC drop interest shortly after IE implemented PICS?
  480. # [12:55] <hsivonen> or why don't other browsers support PICS?
  481. # [12:55] <hsivonen> if IE dropped PICS support today, would FTC and FCC wake up again?
  482. # [12:56] <othermaciej> was PICS ever driven by legal requirements?
  483. # [12:57] <othermaciej> PICS basically seems like a way for sites to claim they won't do bad things with your personal information, in machine-readable form
  484. # [12:57] <othermaciej> I am not sure what "support" even means really
  485. # [12:57] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I thought the whole point of PICS was that the Web folks could say to the FTC and the FCC that the Web is a self-regulating industry
  486. # [12:57] <hsivonen> othermaciej: PICS is a mechanism for saying "we don't have nudity here"
  487. # [12:57] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it's not about personal info
  488. # [12:58] <othermaciej> oh
  489. # [12:58] <hsivonen> like the MPAA self-rates almost every movie as R and says they are a self-regulating industry so the Congress can stay out
  490. # [12:58] <othermaciej> I guess porn sites are not usually motivated to claim not to be porn sites
  491. # [12:59] <othermaciej> I guess in theory then Parental Controls mode in Safari could do something with PICS, but I am not sure enough sites use it
  492. # [12:59] <hsivonen> www.apple.com claims to have no nudity or sexual material, no violence, no potentially offensive language and no "other topics"
  493. # [12:59] <hsivonen> gotta love the lack of other topics
  494. # [13:00] <othermaciej> I believe "other topics" would be against our developer agreement
  495. # [13:01] * jgraham wonders if one should take "other" literally and conclude that there is no material at all on apple.com
  496. # [13:01] <hsivonen> maybe "other topics" means the category labeled "potentially harmful activities" elsewhere
  497. # [13:02] <hsivonen> i.e. tobacco, alcohol, drugs, weapons, gambling, setting bad example to children, horror and distrimination based on gender, sexual orientation, ethnic, religious or national identity
  498. # [13:04] <hsivonen> *discrimination
  499. # [13:05] <annevk> I wonder how often IRI issues have to be explained again
  500. # [13:06] <annevk> So far this IRI WG does not seem very effective...
  501. # [13:08] <hsivonen> othermaciej: P3P was the privacy thing
  502. # [13:09] <othermaciej> hsivonen: ah, I always get those confused apparently
  503. # [13:09] <hsivonen> IIRC that was about telling the FTC and the EU that the Web is a self-regulating industry and doesn't need governmental regulation
  504. # [13:09] <annevk> o_O http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2010Apr/0015.html email client fail
  505. # [13:10] <annevk> fortunately I wrote the character out too
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  513. # [13:22] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if I should bother to escalate the <nobr> but to the tracker...
  514. # [13:25] <hsivonen> Microsoft has published documentation about PICS support on 2010-03-25
  515. # [13:25] <othermaciej> hsivonen: you disagree with Hixie's stance on nobr?
  516. # [13:25] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes
  517. # [13:26] <othermaciej> I thought about reopening if I could find a case that is as arguably semantic as <pre>
  518. # [13:26] <hsivonen> I think <nobr> isn't used without thinking, so banning it doesn't serve an educational purpose
  519. # [13:26] <othermaciej> it seems that in principle <nobr> is no less semantic than <pre>
  520. # [13:26] <hsivonen> and having to use span + style is less convenient than the interoperable dedicated element
  521. # [13:26] <annevk> Isn't PICS that P3P thing or so? That they use to determine whether third party cookies can be set or something silly like that?
  522. # [13:27] <othermaciej> apparently I made a better case for <wbr>
  523. # [13:27] <hsivonen> annevk: PICS is about declaring "no nudity". P3P is about declaring "we don't do bad things with cookies"
  524. # [13:28] <annevk> ah
  525. # [13:28] <annevk> all this having faith in the supplier seems kind of misguided
  526. # [13:30] <hsivonen> annevk: they are smokescreens to repel government authorities
  527. # [13:34] <annevk> some people genuinely believe in them
  528. # [13:34] <annevk> did you follow the geolocation mess?
  529. # [13:34] <annevk> they wanted something like PICS/P3P for geolocation
  530. # [13:34] <annevk> I'm somewhat glad that failed to materialize
  531. # [13:36] <zcorpan> PICS for geolocation? to prevent zooming in on nude people on google maps?
  532. # [13:37] <othermaciej> geopriv
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  534. # [13:37] <othermaciej> they think that whenever you transmit a piece of geolocation data, you should label it with the user's preferences for what they'd like to allow the receiver to do with it
  535. # [13:37] <zcorpan> or don't give away my location while i'm at the strip club
  536. # [13:37] <annevk> zcorpan, hehe, did you see the Google Maps / Chatroulette mashup? it's scary
  537. # [13:40] <zcorpan> hadn't
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  557. # [15:50] <remysharp> Regarding media elements - if I want to visualise the download progress of the playable timerange, should I be listening for the durationChanged event or the progress event?
  558. # [15:51] <zcorpan> remysharp: progress
  559. # [15:52] <remysharp> I was using progress in a test, but (I think Firefox) wasn't firing all the way to the end of the media downloading
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  561. # [15:52] <zcorpan> remysharp: durationchange is only fired when the duration changes, which will likely be just once very early
  562. # [15:52] <remysharp> i.e. I'd read the video.seekable.end() when progress fired, and it wouldn't be the completed length
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  564. # [15:53] <zcorpan> remysharp: i think that's a bug then
  565. # [15:53] <remysharp> or should I have been using the video.duration prop on the progress event firing?
  566. # [15:54] <zcorpan> duration doesn't say how much has been downloaded
  567. # [15:54] <remysharp> no - sorry I should have been clear - it was to update a playhead scrubber
  568. # [15:54] <zcorpan> remysharp: "Once the entire media resource has been fetched (but potentially before any of it has been decoded)
  569. # [15:54] <zcorpan> Queue a task to fire a simple event named progress at the media element."
  570. # [15:54] <remysharp> i.e. what amount of the video can be played
  571. # [15:55] <remysharp> ah - so the video is decoded after that event
  572. # [15:55] <zcorpan> might be
  573. # [15:55] <remysharp> therefore the duration wouldn't potentially be calculated on the last progress event firing?
  574. # [15:56] <remysharp> but - I guess that said, if the meta data comes down first, I'd have the duration before the video can be played, right?
  575. # [15:56] <zcorpan> the duration can be known before having decoded any video, e.g. mozilla supports an http header to indicate duration
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  577. # [15:56] <remysharp> okay
  578. # [15:56] <zcorpan> if you want to know which parts you can seek to, you probably want .seekable
  579. # [15:57] <remysharp> I've just checked my code example, and I'm listening for the durationChange *and* progress, but updating the scrubber based on the seekable.end() value
  580. # [15:57] <zcorpan> (it's durationchange btw with lowercase c)
  581. # [15:57] <remysharp> aye, but I want it to show how much has loaded as it's loading
  582. # [15:57] <remysharp> (lower c - ta)
  583. # [16:03] <remysharp> zcorpan: cheers for your help.
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  590. # [16:19] <hsivonen> regarding http://html5doctor.com/your-questions-answered-6/ : the doctor says he doesn't know why Mozilla have taken that stance (re: not using OS MP3 decoder)
  591. # [16:19] <hsivonen> hasn't this been communicated pretty clearly?
  592. # [16:19] <asmodai> mmm, webkit 2? https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-April/012235.html
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  595. # [16:28] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i recall reading several statements about h.264, but i don't recall anything about mp3 or using os decoders in general
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  597. # [16:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://shaver.off.net/diary/2010/01/23/html5-video-and-codecs/ and http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2009/06/directshow_and.html don't limit the discussion to H.264
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  599. # [16:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i don't recall having read those two :-)
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  605. # [17:08] <JonathanNeal> Hi all
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  607. # [17:12] <hsivonen> hi
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  610. # [17:21] * hsivonen wonders if <option> has been in the "special" category in the past
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  617. # [17:53] <remysharp> another media question -
  618. # [17:53] <remysharp> I've been using the canplay event to say "this is the time I should enable my custom controls"
  619. # [17:53] <remysharp> but sometimes the video download will suspend, so canplay doesn't fire
  620. # [17:54] <remysharp> I'm thinking that I should enable my controls at the loadeddata event - would that be a better approach?
  621. # [17:54] <remysharp> the user can then start the playback, which then eventually fires canplay (I'm seeing this in Firefox btw)
  622. # [17:58] <TabAtkins> I think that's the right thing anyway; iirc for some types of video (live streams?) FF will *never* fire canplay,
  623. # [17:58] <remysharp> cheers - exactly what I was after
  624. # [17:59] <remysharp> ta
  625. # [18:01] <remysharp> ooh - one question tho -
  626. # [18:01] <remysharp> the preload="metadata" attribute
  627. # [18:01] <remysharp> do you know (I'm trying to work out from the spec now) whether that will only fire the loadedmeta data
  628. # [18:01] <remysharp> and not the loadeddata
  629. # [18:02] <remysharp> because then I'd be stuck with no ui
  630. # [18:02] <remysharp> so perhaps I could hook at the loadedmetadata instead?
  631. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> Not sure at that point.
  632. # [18:02] <remysharp> Darn :-\
  633. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> I think roc is working on video in FF.
  634. # [18:03] <remysharp> roc? Is that someone in here?
  635. # [18:03] <TabAtkins> robert o'callahan. Don't know if he's in the room right now.
  636. # [18:04] * TabAtkins still hasnt' figured out all of irssi's commands.
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  638. # [18:04] <remysharp> okay, cheers for that - I'll keep my eyes peeled :)
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  643. # [18:15] <Philip`> TabAtkins: /names to see who's here, or just type their name and press tab and see if it autocompletes
  644. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> Ah, thanks for /names. roc has a short enough name that I thought perhaps robod was blocking him or something.
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  646. # [18:18] <Philip`> Type in the whole name and tab-complete and it'll add a ": " if the person is here
  647. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I guess that's true.
  648. # [18:19] <Philip`> or just the first few letters and tab will cycle through all the options
  649. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> Ah, didn't know about the cycling.
  650. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> I just delete and type more if it doesn't hit the right person first time.
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  652. # [18:20] * gsnedders just learnt to use irssi by hitting random keys
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  658. # [18:27] <hsivonen> hmm. WebKit closes stuff more aggressively on </form> than old Gecko or IE do
  659. # [18:27] <hsivonen> I wonder if the spec should change to be like WebKit on <form><foo>bar</form>baz
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  661. # [18:27] <hsivonen> anyway, I believe <button> shouldn't be scoping
  662. # [18:28] <JonathanNeal> Hi everybody!
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  664. # [18:28] <hsivonen> bug that made me look at <button> and </form>: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558302
  665. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Damn you XML!
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  668. # [18:32] <ROBOd> TabAtkins: me? blocking? who? :)
  669. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> If roc was in the room, your name would probably come directly before him. So I wasn't sure if he was actually not here or what. ^_^
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  672. # [18:38] <JonathanNeal> How would you describe the HTML5 ie problem?
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  674. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> The specific treats-unknown-element-start-and-end-tags-as-void-elements problem?
  675. # [18:39] <JonathanNeal> Yea.
  676. # [18:40] <JonathanNeal> Hmm, looking to summarize what my script will do.
  677. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> I would describe it as "IE treats unknown element start and end tags as void elements".
  678. # [18:41] <JonathanNeal> Yea, yea.
  679. # [18:41] <JonathanNeal> Hmm, so I'm describing it as "IE Print Protector is a script that allows you to print HTML5 pages in Internet Explorer" and I'll use what you wrote to describe the issue.
  680. # [18:41] <paul_irish> Thus making them impossible to style and they instantly collapse, spewing their contents into the DOM
  681. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> Probably describe wtf that actually means to the page author, which is "the unknown elements no longer wrap their contents".
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  683. # [18:43] <miketaylr> Print Protector™
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  689. # [18:51] <annevk> oh, looks like I hit a nerve
  690. # [18:57] <JonathanNeal> No TM, miketaylr :-P I don't want anyone to think I somehow am a genius. It will only give them reason to prove I am not. :)
  691. # [18:57] <JonathanNeal> "Oh, I packaged this whole thing up for you, I wrote this script, look at me, I'm so cool"
  692. # [18:58] <miketaylr> hahaha
  693. # [18:58] <JonathanNeal> We test it, make it look sexy so those who need it find it easily and merrily.
  694. # [18:59] <JonathanNeal> Like charitable prostitution
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  705. # [19:32] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, wanna help me switch to microdata for the ie print page I'll be building? I need a link to your tutorial again :)
  706. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> Sure!
  707. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> www.xanthir.com/:gg5
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  713. # [19:55] <KaOSoFt> Good afternoon.
  714. # [19:56] <JonathanNeal> Thanks!
  715. # [19:59] <KaOSoFt> ?
  716. # [20:00] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- I tested it at home (IE8), and it worked marvelously.
  717. # [20:01] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
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  719. # [20:06] <JonathanNeal> KaOSoFt, awesome.
  720. # [20:07] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- Whenever you fell it's ready, let me know. My blog site is not quite ready yet, but I'll publish whenever is possible/viable.
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  723. # [20:17] <JonathanNeal> Cool.
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  729. # [21:03] <KaOSoFt> feel*
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  736. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> It annoys me when page speed analyzers complain that you aren't using a CDN.
  737. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> . . . Maybe it shouldn't. Are there cheap/easy-to-use CDNs around?
  738. # [21:09] * AryehGregor gets the impression that at least the high-profile ones are "call for a quote"-type things
  739. # [21:15] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: afaik, you're right.
  740. # [21:15] <Dashiva> Coral is free :)
  741. # [21:15] <Dashiva> But I have trouble imagining coral would be faster than not using a CDN
  742. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I'm also wondering about whether you'd get real performance improvements from using some smaller CDNs.
  743. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> In principle, a CDN with a lot of connectivity might be able to charge *less* for the same bandwidth than the data center where your site is hosted.
  744. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> Although the storage probably costs them more, due to the duplication.
  745. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> I just ignore that recommendation when I'm using YSlow, but it does annoy me that I can't get a perfect report card. ;_;
  746. # [21:17] * AryehGregor notes that Akamai's website appears to be written entirely in Flash
  747. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> I was just using webpagetest.org.
  748. # [21:18] * AryehGregor didn't realize his images were so badly compressed
  749. # [21:18] <KaOSoFt> AryehGregor- Just make a subdomain of the like: media.yoursite.com
  750. # [21:18] <TabAtkins> YSlow has a "profile" you can set, though - the "small site" setting doesn't complain about CDNs.
  751. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> KaOSoFt, what's the point in that?
  752. # [21:18] <KaOSoFt> That'll trick the web browser into making another thread for downloading those other files.
  753. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> Other than a few more parallel requests, I guess.
  754. # [21:18] <KaOSoFt> That.
  755. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> Well, there's not much point in putting *all* included content there.
  756. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> If you want to use that hack, you have to split them among several subdomains.
  757. # [21:18] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Doing subdomains also lets you more easily tweak compressions/caching/etc.
  758. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Compression/caching works fine for me right now.
  759. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> Kk.
  760. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> After I fixed some JS not being compressed because of application/x-javascript vs. application/javascript vs. text/javascript . . .
  761. # [21:19] <KaOSoFt> If your site needs more than, let's say, 8 simultaneous requests (images, styles, scripts, content, etc.), tricking it that way should work.
  762. # [21:20] <Philip`> AryehGregor: The Amazon CDN sounds pretty easy to use
  763. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> KaOSoFt, but if all the simultaneous requests are on the same domain, it doesn't help you if it's separate from your main site.
  764. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Philip`, yeah, I'd heard about that.
  765. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> I tried SimpleCDN, but it didn't work.
  766. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> Amazon is sorta expensive.
  767. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Amazon sounds plausible, but I'm wondering about cost.
  768. # [21:20] <Philip`> http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/
  769. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> My old company used it to serve our actual software, but that's it.
  770. # [21:20] <Philip`> "$0.150 per GB – first 10 TB / month data transfer out"
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  772. # [21:21] <TabAtkins> Oh, that's something different. I was using s3.
  773. # [21:21] <KaOSoFt> Philip`- That's cheap.
  774. # [21:21] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  775. # [21:22] <Philip`> CloudFront is basically a faster geographically-distributed frontend to S3
  776. # [21:23] <Philip`> for approximately the same cost per GB
  777. # [21:23] * AryehGregor tries to work out if $0.150 per GB is more or less expensive than $50/Mbps at the 95th percentile
  778. # [21:23] * AryehGregor gives up, needs a traffic distribution
  779. # [21:23] <KaOSoFt> Haha.
  780. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> I think this stuff is actually a pretty small part of my bandwidth, though.
  781. # [21:23] <Philip`> That seems impossible to calculate, since you might go 0Mbps for 95% of the time and then ~infinity Mbps for 5% of the time
  782. # [21:24] * AryehGregor discovers that some site admin or another stuck zillions of ImageShack-hosted images on his front page, sigh
  783. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: link?
  784. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, twcenter.net
  785. # [21:25] <KaOSoFt> Are you... are you the webmaster of that site?
  786. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> The same site admin doesn't realize that jpegs don't play nicely with text in image.
  787. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> KaOSoFt, yes.
  788. # [21:25] <KaOSoFt> AryehGregor- I got Empire - Total War because of the mods there.
  789. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> I didn't make the front page, though, don't blame me.
  790. # [21:25] <KaOSoFt> :D
  791. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> KaOSoFt, :)
  792. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> I'm the primary webmaster, anyway.
  793. # [21:26] <AryehGregor> There are like eight admins, but I do most of the techy stuff.
  794. # [21:26] <AryehGregor> Our primary bandwidth drain is, in fact, downloads.
  795. # [21:27] <KaOSoFt> TabAtkins- Why are there like, two more nicknames like yours?
  796. # [21:27] <KaOSoFt> I mean, here, in the channel.
  797. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> KaOSoFt: The one I'm talking as right now is my work desktop. The other one or two are my laptops.
  798. # [21:27] <KaOSoFt> Oh, I see.
  799. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> Much easier to just keep irc up at all times than manually launch it whenever I use a laptop.
  800. # [21:28] <gsnedders> You should just log in to one server over ssh and run irssi on it
  801. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: My current solution requires less work than that.
  802. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> And all the nicks are set to hilight for me, so shrug.
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  804. # [21:30] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  805. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> . . . @ http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2130/50633715.png being a PNG
  806. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> What's the closest thing to public domain that has a good chance of being recognized internationally? BSD? MIT?
  807. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> In some jurisdictions, no open-source license will be recognized internationally.
  808. # [21:36] <KaOSoFt> MIT is as free as it could be.
  809. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> You can use the CC public domain dedication.
  810. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> How about the cc0 license?
  811. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
  812. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Ugh, my front page is a complete trainwreck. 4.4 MB of content.
  813. # [21:41] * AryehGregor gives up on it
  814. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> Ooh, http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4499455073_a729acd621_o.png
  815. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> ^^^ This is why a fast, simple auto-update is ideal.
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  817. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> You bet.
  818. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Chrome is by far the best at auto-updating. Firefox is a pain.
  819. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> I don't know why people are so paranoid about silent auto-update.
  820. # [21:43] <Dashiva> Because when stuff breaks, users get mad
  821. # [21:44] * AryehGregor regularly gets nagged on his Linux machine at school to update Firefox . . . although probably can't, since you know, he's not root?
  822. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, easy solution: don't break stuff on upgrade.
  823. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> (Chrome breaks too often for me, but that's probably because I'm on the dev channel and too lazy to switch to beta)
  824. # [21:44] <Dashiva> Firefox in particular has that entire forest of extensions
  825. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> Yes, and then it prompts you *synchronously* every time you start whether you want to check for updates.
  826. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> STFU, I don't care.
  827. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Oh, but you're saying they might be broken by upgrade.
  828. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> That synchronous checking is really quite annoying.
  829. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Well, that's because Firefox extensions are much more powerful than Chrome extensions.
  830. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Comes at a cost.
  831. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> I guess.
  832. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> I've often started FF, gone to do something else (because with all my extensions, starting FF takes 3 or 4 minutes), only to come back to it saying an extension has been updated.
  833. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> My impression is that Firefox gives too much power to extensions, so they wind up being must-haves, but slowing the browser down, breaking on upgrade . . .
  834. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Chrome extensions seem to be just web pages, which have a few magic powers that use narrow and well-defined APIs that aren't likely to break across upgrade.
  835. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> I think Firefox is going that way with Jetpacks or whatever they're called? Dunno, I don't actually have any idea what I'm talking about. :D
  836. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> But I found that installing lots of extensions on Firefox is a bad idea, in the end.
  837. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Too much pain.
  838. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> That's approximately right.
  839. # [21:51] <Dashiva> In particular ones that update frequently...
  840. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> I'm also suspicious of the performance impact.
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  842. # [21:55] <KaOSoFt> Chrome is quite fast, and it's got this eerie smoothness that I like.
  843. # [21:55] <KaOSoFt> But I think it lacks some functionality.
  844. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Works well enough for me.
  845. # [21:55] <KaOSoFt> I'm using it right now.
  846. # [21:55] <KaOSoFt> This extra functionality doesn't do me any good at work.
  847. # [21:56] <KaOSoFt> So I don't need it.
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  849. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> Doesn't do me any good at home either.
  850. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Sadly, work (i.e., school) runs RHEL5, so it's hard to install Chrome.
  851. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> I haven't bothered trying.
  852. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Libraries too outdated . . .
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  854. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> Only two things I've found that I miss in Chrome: the ability to actually view the source that a page came in with ("View Source" makes a new request, which screws up some things) and the ability to get at image information.
  855. # [21:59] * TabAtkins supposes he should file bugs about those.
  856. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Yeah, those two are mildly annoying.
  857. # [21:59] <gsnedders> How does that work with POST?
  858. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> Badly.
  859. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, it doesn't, that's the problem.
  860. # [21:59] <miketaylr> it doesn't
  861. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Does it still make another request?
  862. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Or does it just not give you view sourcE?
  863. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> Yes, but as GET, I think.
  864. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> You can at least get image resolution if you open it in a new tab, I noticed.
  865. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Oh dear
  866. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> It displays in the title.
  867. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> If you hover over the tab title.
  868. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> I know that it screws up the CSS module post-processor, so I have to use FF when I'm editting a spec.
  869. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Discoverability FTW.
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  881. # [22:25] <KaOSoFt> Today I leave early, though there is a storm out there... Oh, well, goodbye anyways.
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  889. # [22:53] <JonathanNeal> All I need is a style for the page.
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  896. # [23:31] <JonathanNeal> Anyone care to review http://www.iecss.com/print-protector/ let me know if I missed anything?
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  901. # [23:33] <Philip`> JonathanNeal: The ri kerning in the title image is ugly :-(
  902. # [23:34] <JonathanNeal> Noted, what font should I use?
  903. # [23:35] <Philip`> Comic Sans?
  904. # [23:35] <Philip`> Can you stop calling it a shiv, and call it something like a shim instead, since that would make much more sense?
  905. # [23:38] <JonathanNeal> Philip`, is it really that important? http://ejohn.org/blog/html5-shiv/ http://remysharp.com/2009/01/07/html5-enabling-script/
  906. # [23:38] <Hixie> a shiv is a weapon
  907. # [23:38] <Hixie> a shim is a thin strip of material to make things align
  908. # [23:39] <JonathanNeal> The term shiv originates from John Resig, the creator of jQuery, who used the word as a metaphor to describe shiving support for HTML5 elements into Internet Explorer via javascript, where shiving is a slang term for a sharp object used as a knife-like weapon. There's also a chance that John had a moment of false etymology and meant to use the word shim, which in computing means an application compatibility workaround.
  909. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> I'm going with the second possibility, which makes much more sense.
  910. # [23:40] <Hixie> you could use the word ship, claiming that you are "providing a way to get there from here"
  911. # [23:40] <JonathanNeal> Well, I don't think I'll be offending any SHIV people by changing the wording to SHIM --- done!
  912. # [23:40] <jgraham> You could use the word "hack" instead and then spend lots of time explaining to your grandparents that NSA aren't after you
  913. # [23:41] <Hixie> or or "shin", and say that you are giving IE legs to stand on
  914. # [23:41] <Philip`> Replacing things like <video> and <canvas> with a <div> on printing seems like a terrible idea, because it won't do anything useful in IE8 and it'll completely break printing of the elements in IE9
  915. # [23:41] <Hixie> or "shia" and claim it to be a metaphor for forking standards...
  916. # [23:42] <Philip`> (Same for all the other elements that have special not-purely-CSS renderings, too)
  917. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Ooh, good point. You need a cc targeting IE8 and earlier only.
  918. # [23:44] <Philip`> I think IE9 parses unknown elements in an XMLish way so you don't actually need to do anything there
  919. # [23:44] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, I will do that.
  920. # [23:53] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  921. # [23:55] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  922. # [23:57] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  923. # Session Close: Sat Apr 10 00:00:00 2010

The end :)