/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-14 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 14 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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6. # [00:10] <Philip`> In a process where there's no penalty for making bad arguments, and you believe a proposal should be accepted, it seems only rational to provide as many arguments as you can think of regardless of their quality because maybe somebody will accidentally believe some of them
7. # [00:11] <Hixie> yeah, that's pretty much the problem here
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9. # [00:13] <Dashiva> <Philip`> In a process where there's no penalty for making bad arguments, and you believe a proposal should be accepted, it seems only rational to provide as many arguments as you can think of regardless of their quality because maybe somebody will accidentally believe some of them
10. # [00:13] <Dashiva> For you, othermaciej :)
11. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Which unfortunately creates more work for everyone, as there's more crap to wade through, and then you still have to debunk the crap arguments.
12. # [00:13] <othermaciej> Dashiva: pardon?
13. # [00:13] <Philip`> (Of course a process that penalises good arguments because of nearby bad arguments would be irrational, because things should be decided based on the merits of good arguments)
14. # [00:13] <Philip`> (so there's no good solution)
15. # [00:16] <Dashiva> othermaciej: Talking about how there's no reason to not make bogus arguments to bog down "the others"
16. # [00:17] <othermaciej> the only penalty for bad arguments is that readers may pay less heed to your good arguments
17. # [00:18] <Dashiva> They don't have a choice with change proposals involved
18. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: That's not a real penalty, as your bad arguments will still generate work for others.
19. # [00:18] <Dashiva> You must address everything to be sure bad stuff doesn't happen
20. # [00:19] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: the chairs have rejected Change Proposals before for lacking rationale
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22. # [00:19] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: but we're reluctant to do a really deep analysis
23. # [00:20] <Dashiva> If you create a proposal with one real argument and ten bogus arguments, that's a lot of extra work for counter-proposals
24. # [00:20] <othermaciej> we'll only reject if the rationale is completely missing, or just transparently inadequate (e.g. tautological or does not actually cover all changes in the proposal)
25. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: That's not stopping bad arguments from dominating a change proposal. A single good argument in rationale is enough to carry a bunch of bad arguments, all of which have to be addressed. ;_;
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27. # [00:20] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: well, a counter-proposal doesn't necessarly have to address every single argument from any Change Proposal it is opposed to
28. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> And since the CP accept/reject mechanism is completely opaque, we have no idea how important it is to address any particular argument.
29. # [00:21] <othermaciej> it just has to make the case that the status quo is better than the change
30. # [00:21] <othermaciej> the chairs would likely mention if it seems like there are points worth addressing that haven't been
31. # [00:22] <othermaciej> anyway, I get a sense that you are somewhat dissatisfied, but I'm not sure if you have a specific proposal for what the chairs might do differently
32. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> Not right now, no.
33. # [00:22] <Dashiva> Perhaps allow striking of obviously invalid arguments
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35. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Something along that line might work. The essential problem is that, since the accept/reject process is a single opaque step at the end, there's no way to know *where* to apply energy.
36. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Feedback as things move along would at least allow CP authors to know which arguments to strengthen, and counter authors to know which ones don't need to be addressed.
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38. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Not sure precisely how to address or obtain "more feedback", but I feel it's the basic weakness in the Issue process.
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40. # [00:26] <murz> You can use HTML5 elements on a page that uses an HTML4 or XHTML1.1 declaration, right? All that really matters it that the browser supports the element, the DTD is mostly just to trigger standards mode and to tell validators which rules to use?
41. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> There's no practical difference, no.
42. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> DTDs are *entirely* to trigger standards mode.
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44. # [00:28] <paul_irish> that's a great question. people also are commonly curious if javascript or RTL things change with different doctypes.
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49. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> level all
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51. # [00:35] <annevk> actually, DOCTYPEs are, DTDs are irrelevant
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54. # [00:55] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: is "level all" a secret masonic code phrase or something?
55. # [00:55] <Dashiva> It's the password to the secret whatwg treehouse
56. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Damn, was hoping that wasn't actually posted to everything.
57. # [00:56] <MikeSmith> in full effect
58. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> I've been trying to configure irssi to not show joins and quits.
59. # [00:56] <MikeSmith> ah
60. # [00:56] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: the chairs give feedback on form, the WG participants themselves hopefully give technical feedback on the actual validity / convincingness of the arguments
61. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: That doesn't address my concern, which is that the chairs make the final decision on validity/convincingness of arguments, but we have no way of knowing how valid/convincing a given argument is going to be, and thus we must devote energy to *every* argument, even the stupid ones.
62. # [00:58] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: on the Microdata issue, I believe the Chairs gave specific feedback before we went to a poll on which arguments did not seem sufficiently addressed by the other side
63. # [00:58] <Hixie> and tab didn't convince you, so clearly he didn't have enough information on how to convince you :-)
64. # [00:59] <othermaciej> that's like saying if you lose a case in court, you must not have known enough about the law
65. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> I'm not talking about the Microdata issue. At the moment, I'm talking about Issue 100, where there are a number of completely irrelevant or even nonsensical arguments, that I nonetheless had to address.
66. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> I actually wrote more for several points before deciding to just be terse and say they were irrelevant.
67. # [00:59] <othermaciej> your first audience for your Change Proposal should be the Working Group
68. # [00:59] <othermaciej> so write whatever you think is useful to persuade WG members in general
69. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> I will. But my final audience is the chairs.
70. # [01:00] <othermaciej> we want polls / written decisions to be the last resort
71. # [01:00] <othermaciej> though I don't think we'll be so fortunate as to have 0 more of them
72. # [01:00] <Dashiva> So what about all the "kill element x" proposals, that got massive pushback from the wg?
73. # [01:01] <othermaciej> clearly the author of those did not do a good job of persuading the WG, at least so far
74. # [01:01] <Dashiva> They aren't very likely to end in amicable resolution
75. # [01:01] <Dashiva> Doesn't that ensure a chair decision or poll?
76. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> Where "very likely" is defined as "0". ^_^
77. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> s/very likely/not very likely/
78. # [01:01] <othermaciej> depends on whether the one supporter of those proposals agrees to back down after seeing the counter
79. # [01:01] <othermaciej> if not, we'll decide what to do next
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81. # [01:10] <Hixie> what do people think of making <s> valid again, with a semantic something like "indicates that the contents are no longer accurate or no longer relevant" or some such?
82. # [01:12] <Dashiva> To avoid diluting the semantics of <del>?
83. # [01:12] <Hixie> yeah
84. # [01:12] <Hixie> (see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9429 if you have any especially strong opinions one way or the other)
85. # [01:14] <annevk> not opposed
86. # [01:14] <daedb> Sounds fine to me, but I don't care strongly about it :p
87. # [01:16] <Dashiva> I'm not opposed, but it sounds like a semantic fig leaf
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89. # [01:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: <s> is strikethrough?
90. # [01:24] <othermaciej> what's the difference between <s> and <strike> if any?
91. # [01:24] <othermaciej> (change sounds good to me btw)
92. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: No difference. They appear to be the same element?
93. # [01:25] <othermaciej> I wonder why both exist
94. # [01:26] <othermaciej> HTML4 had both
95. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> Presumably because HTML doesn't make any sense.
96. # [01:29] <annevk> I guess Netscape had <s> and Microsoft had <strike> or vice versa
97. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Why do you think so? There is a consistent semantic implied by the use of strike-through in text.
98. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> It's sort of like <b> taking on the role of "everything that is bold for some important reason, but isn't otherwise covered by another element".
99. # [01:30] <othermaciej> the <b> definition is also a semantic fig leaf
100. # [01:30] <Dashiva> Well, what are the major semantic use cases for <s> that aren't covered by <del>?
101. # [01:31] <othermaciej> <del> implies an edit or edit instruction
102. # [01:31] <othermaciej> strikethrough in blogs is typically for uses of either "I made a mistake but am being transparent about correcting it" or an ironic fake version of that
103. # [01:32] <othermaciej> it seems a little different to me than marking up document edits with <ins>/<del>
104. # [01:32] <othermaciej> like the point of using strikethrough in that context is to *not* delete the stricken text, but rather let it stand and signal that it is no longer operative
105. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> Actually, I think the first use-case *is* covered well by <del>. They're editting the document. If they were feeling really fancy, they could cite the comment from the pedant that pointed it out.
106. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> But the ironic fake version probably is abusing <del>.
107. # [01:33] <Dashiva> So if I'm making ironic emphasis in a quote, I shouldn't use <strong> or <em> either?
108. # [01:33] <othermaciej> But they are not saying that text has been deleted or should be - rather they are flagging it as false
109. # [01:33] <othermaciej> or mistaken or unintended
110. # [01:34] <othermaciej> but explicitly letting it stand for the record
111. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> Basically, the ironically-stricken text shouldn't be interpreted as ordinary text (that is, it shouldn't be just a <span style>), but it shouldn't be skipped over as a deletion either (and so shouldn't be a <del>).
112. # [01:35] <Dashiva> (Like Tab says, transparent correction is very much ins/del, otherwise you'd just do the edit directly)
113. # [01:36] <othermaciej> maybe I do not grok the deep semantics of <del>
114. # [01:36] <othermaciej> I am not entirely sure what it is supposed to be for
115. # [01:36] <othermaciej> I imagine if I marked up someone else's document to propose changes, I would use <ins> and <del>
116. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's right.
117. # [01:36] <othermaciej> to me that seems different from transparent correction
118. # [01:36] <othermaciej> where I am consciously *not* editing the text
119. # [01:36] <othermaciej> and using strikethrough as an alternative
120. # [01:37] <Dashiva> What is a correction if not editing the text?
121. # [01:37] <othermaciej> well, newspaper corrections are generally an external annotation
122. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> But you are! In most cases I've seen strikethrough used as a transparent correction, the text could be read while completely ignoring the stricken text, and be correct.
123. # [01:37] <othermaciej> the Web lets you do more of it inline
124. # [01:38] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I often see a strikethrough followed by a parenthetical remark explaining the correction, which would not read right if you skipped it entirely
125. # [01:38] <Dashiva> The only problem with the ironic deletion seems to be that it shouldn't be collapsed
126. # [01:38] <othermaciej> anyway, I am not the right person for this discussion
127. # [01:38] <othermaciej> because I don't really care if elements are semantic or presentational, as long as they are useful
128. # [01:38] <Dashiva> <del permanent-marker>
129. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> Is that somehow better than <s>?
130. # [01:40] <Dashiva> Personally I'd be fine with <del> meaning "something removed from the text" without also implying "something that can be removed from the markup"
131. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> That might be the most pragmatic solution.
132. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> Hixie, presumably you had a reason why you think that that wouldn't be sufficient?
133. # [01:41] <Dashiva> If we're adding <s> as ironic <del>, we must also add <u> as ironic <ins>
134. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Haha.
135. # [01:42] <othermaciej> underline seems at best very loosely tied to the semantic if "inserted text"
136. # [01:42] <othermaciej> not the way strikethrough implies some form of deletion or removal
137. # [01:43] <othermaciej> also people rarely feel the need to mark up inline correction additions in any way
138. # [01:43] <Dashiva> Okay, then, <u> as ironic <a>
139. # [01:44] <othermaciej> I think Hixie's proposed definition of <s> for strikethrough of falsity/irrelevance/inoperativeness captures the distinction between transparent corrections and <del> as text that is/should be deleted
140. # [01:44] <Hixie> I think "indicates that the contents are no longer accurate or no longer relevant" is quite different than <del>'s edit semantic, personally
141. # [01:44] <othermaciej> I think <a> works fine for ironic <a> :-)
142. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> We need use-cases for ironic <a>s, damnit!
143. # [01:44] <Dashiva> But it's not supposed to be a real link, just look like one
144. # [01:44] <othermaciej> just put the </sarcasm> close tag at the end of your link
145. # [01:44] <Hixie> anyway i didn't mean to start a huge conversation, there are far bigger problems :-P
146. # [01:44] <othermaciej> ironic != fake
147. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Hixie, really? What is the edit semantic if *not* "indicating that the contents are no longer accurate"?
148. # [01:44] <Dashiva> <a></sarcasm>
149. # [01:45] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: there are lots of reasons to delete content besides "no longer accurate"
150. # [01:45] <othermaciej> most edits are for style, grammar or conciseness
151. # [01:45] <othermaciej> and there are reasons to indicate content is "no longer accurate" without deleting it
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153. # [01:45] <Dashiva> I guess my personal interpretation of edit is any change to the document, not just an editioral review
154. # [01:46] <Hixie> TabAtkins: consider a Fox News script... <del> there could be used for quite the opposite of "no longer accurate"
155. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> No getting into arguments about absolute truth here.
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158. # [01:48] <Dashiva> Well, it won't be me having to defend it, so go ahead :)
159. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Your Print Protector showed up in Smashing Magazine's Buzz stream. ^_^
160. # [01:49] <JonathanNeal> :)
161. # [01:51] <JonathanNeal> Remy Sharp is helping me shrink the code down even more.
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164. # [02:08] <Hixie> sweet jesus christ i am so tired of dealing with leif's massive essays
165. # [02:08] <Hixie> every bug he files or reopens has pages and pages of text
166. # [02:08] <Hixie> most of which seems to make no sense at all
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169. # [02:17] <Hixie> can someone please translate http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9417 for me?
170. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> I like that the response to "Could you succinctly describe what the problem is?" is 4 paragraphs of text.
171. # [02:22] <TabAtkins> Nope, sorry, can't parse it either. I'd have to test what he's talking about in order to tell what the problem might be. He hints at things that might be problems, but doesn't actually state precisely *what* the problem is.
172. # [02:26] <Dashiva> I just want content-language to burn on the pyre of obsoletion
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176. # [02:31] <Dashiva> Hixie: NEEDSINFO, succinct description still missing
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179. # [02:33] <Hixie> Dashiva: he added even more text actually, i ended up just rejecting it based on the new text (which claimed a problem existed which, as far as i can tell, only exists if you go out of your way to make your life hard in the first place)
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211. # [04:07] <jlebar> Hixie, Can I find the old [MIMESNIFF] info somewhere? I'm trying to figure out how to specify sniffing for resource packages (http://limi.net/articles/resource-packages/), but all the HTML5 sniffing language I might look at appears to be out of order.
212. # [04:08] <Hixie> old MIMESNIFF?
213. # [04:08] <Hixie> as opposed to the new MIMESNIFF?
214. # [04:08] <jlebar> "The above is out of date now that the relevant section has been removed from MIMESNIFF. Stay tuned; I'll bring it back here soon."
215. # [04:09] <Hixie> oh, that stuff
216. # [04:09] <Hixie> yeah let me just add it back now, hold on
217. # [04:09] <jlebar> Thanks. :)
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224. # [04:21] <Hixie> jlebar: reload
225. # [04:21] <Hixie> i'll check it in after lunch when i've reviewed it
226. # [04:21] <Hixie> afk
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229. # [04:28] <jlebar> Thanks, Hixie.
230. # [04:28] <MikeSmithX> HTML WG bugmail still does not seem to be getting posted to public-html-bugzilla@w3.org at all
231. # [04:28] <MikeSmithX> ..and I'm not sure why
232. # [04:28] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
233. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> I think I need to kick something
234. # [04:31] * MikeSmith tries one more thing
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266. # [07:52] <JonathanNeal> hi all
267. # [07:55] <boblet> hey JonathanNeal
268. # [07:55] <JonathanNeal> hey boblet
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274. # [08:03] <boblet> can any CSS3 people tell me what’s happening to writing-mode? Seems like it was in the text module but is not now. I’m wondering if that’s temporary or if direction & block-flow are obsoleting it
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278. # [08:18] <JonathanNeal> I suppose you can't link to local files using audio?
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285. # [08:37] <boblet> JonathanNeal: doesn’t file:/// or something relative to source html file work? would expect it to huh
286. # [08:38] <JonathanNeal> no it doesn't work
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292. # [09:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: I support making <s> conforming
293. # [09:04] * zcorpan expects masses of people outside #whatwg will object to making <s> conforming
294. # [09:06] <hsivonen> as I see things, <s> means striken but not removable from view and <del> means diff-annotation of an actual delete that could be safely completely deleted
295. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what about <strike> ?
296. # [09:07] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Leaving)
297. # [09:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'd be OK with having both <strike> and <s> and saying that they are exact synonyms
298. # [09:08] <hsivonen> in which case it would be logical to make <acronym> conforming, too
299. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah
300. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> so a bit of slipperly slope there maybe
301. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> though I short slope, I guess
302. # [09:09] <hsivonen> but if <acronym> were made conforming, it would need very, very obvious spec text saying that <acronym> and <abbr> are normatively synonymous and permathreads are hereby pre-empted
303. # [09:10] * MikeSmith looks back at http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-phrase-block-list/#phrase
304. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> we still have the unfortunate fact to deal with that <u> is much more commonly used than even <abbr> or <code>
305. # [09:11] <hsivonen> I'd be OK with making <u> conforming, too
306. # [09:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "Authors must not discuss which of abbr and acronym should be used."
307. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> if we were going to pick another something to give new semantics to, that should be at the top of the list
308. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: :)
309. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> "Authors must STFU."
310. # [09:11] <hsivonen> even though underlining on the Web generally means links, mapping word processing concepts from the 1990s to the Web benefits from having <u>
311. # [09:12] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@s55940049.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
312. # [09:12] <hsivonen> one interesting area of use cases for presentational markup is legal stuff
313. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> true that
314. # [09:12] <hsivonen> where there are ancient and typographically crummy conventions
315. # [09:12] <hsivonen> but the styling is not optional
316. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> right
317. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> same with the actual language used in legal documents
318. # [09:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: we should have that requirement
319. # [09:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: we only need two authors to bite their tongues to make past CR
320. # [09:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: they also need to conform to all other criteria that apply to authors
321. # [09:14] <hsivonen> oh right. I forgot we want two complete interoperable implementations
322. # [09:14] <zcorpan> we're not svg
323. # [09:14] <hsivonen> while feature-wise comparison is ok in the CSS WG
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327. # [09:21] <myakura> boblet: I don't know the detail, but it's been split out and moved into a separate module. see http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text-layout/
328. # [09:22] <boblet> myakura: doh — I was reading that and didn’t go down far enough. thanks!
329. # [09:24] <myakura> hm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Apr/0278.html
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335. # [09:27] <boblet> myakura: do you know if there’s a display property for <rp>, like display:ruby-text?
336. # [09:28] <boblet> (ie a custom one that isn’t display:none)
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338. # [09:36] <boblet> aah don’t worry. not possible to do that anyway (was trying to fake <rp> via generated content, but can’t then turn it off in browsers that support <rt>)
339. # [09:37] <myakura> boblet: i dunno. i guess they prolly drop rps from the rendering tree (or something like such)
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343. # [09:47] <boblet> Hixie: re: complex ruby, the advantage of having rbc and rtc elements is the base text and the ruby text don’t need to be intermingled if you want to add ruby per character. Having the ruby all together after the base text is definitely better for non-supporting browsers and for copy&paste. current spec means you loose per-kanji coupling to do that
344. # [09:48] <boblet> Hixie: PM me if you’d like to see the sample files I’m working on
345. # [09:50] <Hixie> seems like copy-paste and legacy browsers are just a temporary problem
346. # [09:50] <Hixie> i'd hate to make the language that much more complicated just for a temporary issue
347. # [09:51] <hsivonen> I don't like the pattern of UA sniffing Firefox and feeding it some crazy code that it previously accedintally handled but feeding sane code to IE
348. # [09:52] <hsivonen> I wonder if some guru has taught people that it's OK and even a good idea to document.write a script element to load a "module" in Firefox
349. # [09:52] <Hixie> the opposite pattern is worse, and more common
350. # [09:52] <jgraham> hsivonen: everything after and including the word Firefox is superflouous there
351. # [09:52] <hsivonen> document.write a script from a timeout, that is
352. # [09:53] <hsivonen> timeout is the key here
353. # [09:53] <jgraham> UA snifing never seems to end well
354. # [09:53] <jgraham> </qa_bias>
355. # [09:53] <hsivonen> oh document.writing from timeout doesn't work in IE, let's do it in Firefox only
356. # [09:53] <hsivonen> do people think what it means to document.write from a timeout?!11!!1eleventy
357. # [09:54] <jgraham> What did it mean?
358. # [09:54] <jgraham> It seems like it could have all sorts of exciting consequences
359. # [09:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: content gets injected into a timing-sensitive point in the input stream, but only if the parser isn't done yet
360. # [09:55] <zcorpan> shouldn't it blow away the document?
361. # [09:55] <Hixie> it inserted it wherever the parser was, more or less (but only at certain points, iirc, e.g. only on token boundaries. i forget the details.)
362. # [09:55] <jgraham> "please insert this script at a random point in my document, maybe"?
363. # [09:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: per spec, yes. in IE, yes. in Gecko with html5.enable=true, yes
364. # [09:55] <zcorpan> iirc it does in opera also
365. # [09:55] <Hixie> i remember testing and finding i could insert text into attributes
366. # [09:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in Gecko with the old parser, no if the parser isn't done
367. # [09:56] * hsivonen is dissecting an exciting ad script that exhibits this behavior in Minefield on Windows but not on Mac or Linux
368. # [09:57] <boblet> Hixie: don’t see how copy-paste issue is temporary
369. # [09:58] <Hixie> boblet: well presumably it's not how browsers _want_ it to work
370. # [10:00] <boblet> Hixie: I guess browsers could reorder the text when copying from ruby, but that seems somewhat unlikely. currently even del text shows up in copy-paste
371. # [10:00] <boblet> adding nested ruby to the mix though…
372. # [10:00] <Hixie> well copy/paste should do what the user expects
373. # [10:01] <jgraham> At risk of jumping back to the <s> discussion, with the proviso that <ins> and <del> would be the first elements against the wall if my revolution came, I think that allowing <s> or <strike> or whatver is fine and the fact that there has been discussion about what it means indicates that people won't always use it for what it means
374. # [10:01] <Hixie> boblet: and i'm pretty sure hte user isn't expecting it to do as you described
375. # [10:01] <boblet> I definitely didn’t expect del’ed text to show up when c&p’ing a code snippet :O
376. # [10:01] <jgraham> (or what it would be specced as meaning)
377. # [10:02] <jgraham> So it should be given a definition that basicaly means "render this as struck through text where possible or in a manner that conveys struck-throughness where not possible"
378. # [10:02] * hsivonen wonders where GeckoActiveXObject comes from
379. # [10:03] <boblet> i18n and a11y make my head hurt generally. combining them both into one element seems especially cruel :)
380. # [10:05] <boblet> Does anyone have a clever idea about how to style ruby text in unsupporting browsers? I can change the font-size easily enough, but anything else will also affect supporting UAs…
381. # [10:07] <hsivonen> haha. the same script assumes that if it find AppleWebKit in the UA string, it'll also find "Version"
382. # [10:07] <hsivonen> which isn't a safe assumption in e.g. Chrome
383. # [10:07] <hsivonen> or any non-Safari WebKit-based browser
384. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> hmm, I just noticed a weird rendering problem in Webkit nightly
385. # [10:08] <hsivonen> Why does Safari even bother putting the app version in the UA string?
386. # [10:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: probably for easier stats analysis
387. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> can somebody look at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/figcaption.html and check the "P" in "Phrasing content" and teh "f" in "figure" under "Permitted parent elements"?
388. # [10:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: makes it more likely people will report "safari" as being used
389. # [10:09] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
390. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> about above -- I mean, first click the link so it becomes a visited link, then check the letters
391. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> in Webkit nightly they show up in the default (non-visited link) color, whereas the rest of the link is in visited-link color as expected
392. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, yesterday you mentioned about checking for a nested-figcaption case -- but figcaption can't nest, right? it's only allowed as a child of figure
393. # [10:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: can't !== isn't allowed to
394. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> ah
395. # [10:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that is, does the internal state of the checker go crazy, if the end tag of an illegally nested figcaption flips the bit early
396. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> I see
397. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> well, for the one test case I tried, it just first gives me an error about the figcaption not being allowed, and the message saying it stopped tehre and did not check the rest of the subtree
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399. # [10:19] <boblet> MikeSmith: re: webkit link coloring, me too on r56990
400. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> boblet: thanks
401. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> seems to be a new bug
402. # [10:24] <micheil> hmm.. Hixie are websocket servers expected to reply with Set-Cookie headers if Set-Cookie headers were sent?
403. # [10:25] <Hixie> servers can do whatever they feel is right with cookie headers, basically
404. # [10:26] <micheil> okay, so, if a server were to drop the Set-Cookie headers, then that wouldn't be against spec
405. # [10:26] <micheil> right?
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408. # [10:38] <boblet> when copying ruby with per-kanji rt in Chrome, each character and rt text is in source order with a line break between
409. # [10:38] <jgraham> micheil: That's what I plan on doing initially at least
410. # [10:39] <micheil> jgraham: do you have your implementation up anywhere?
411. # [10:39] <jgraham> micheil: It doesn't quite work yet
412. # [10:39] <micheil> jgraham: so far the only spec compliant server/client I've found is in Go
413. # [10:39] <Hixie> micheil: right
414. # [10:39] <boblet> Chrome also doesn’t highlight the second ruby rt correctly — can show highlighted but not copy, and copy when not highlighted
415. # [10:39] <boblet> fun fun
416. # [10:40] <Hixie> micheil: personally my web socket toys have not used cookies at all
417. # [10:40] <micheil> Hixie: any idea who wrote the one for Go? They deserve a pat on the back or something :P
418. # [10:40] <Hixie> no idea
419. # [10:40] <Hixie> does it do the latest handshake?
420. # [10:41] <Hixie> or is it just -75 still
421. # [10:41] <micheil> yeah, I think so
422. # [10:41] <Hixie> cool
423. # [10:41] <Hixie> i wonder if chrome has updated yet
424. # [10:41] <micheil> http://golang.org/src/pkg/websocket/server.go
425. # [10:41] <micheil> does the challenge / fingerprint stuff
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427. # [10:41] <Hixie> yeah must be
428. # [10:41] <micheil> also has a module for draftHixie75
429. # [10:42] <Hixie> oh looks like ukai wrote it, cool
430. # [10:42] <micheil> oh neat :)
431. # [10:42] <micheil> all I could find on it was "The Go Authors"
432. # [10:43] * Joins: gsnedders (~gsnedders@204.232.194.186)
433. # [10:43] <zcorpan> micheil: you should look at the TODO markers ;)
434. # [10:44] <micheil> oh, good point
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436. # [10:44] <Hixie> looks like he doesn't do the 0xFF trailing handshake yet
437. # [10:44] <Hixie> but otherwise seems solid
438. # [10:45] <micheil> trailing 0xFF handshake?
439. # [10:45] * micheil will have to check up on that
440. # [10:45] <zcorpan> 0xFF0x00 is the closing handshake
441. # [10:46] <micheil> ah, okay
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443. # [10:46] <micheil> which is the inverse of a empty message packet: 0x000xFF
444. # [10:47] <Hixie> yes, though that's a coincidence more than anything
445. # [10:47] <micheil> true
446. # [10:51] <micheil> looks like the current release of chrome doesn't do the closing handshake
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448. # [10:53] <Hixie> does it do the key stuff?
449. # [10:53] <Hixie> the closing handshake was added at the same time
450. # [10:54] <beowulf> Hixie: http://bfbc2.statsverse.com/stats/ps3/carisenda # i have more free time than you :)
451. # [10:55] <micheil> I'm not sure, I haven't tested yet
452. # [10:55] <Hixie> beowulf: yet my squad score is higher :-P
453. # [10:55] * micheil is just beginning to write a header parser..
454. # [10:57] <beowulf> *mutter*
455. # [10:57] <Hixie> :-P
456. # [10:58] <hsivonen> so this time the script didn't call document.write from a timeout
457. # [10:59] <hsivonen> it called it whenever the HTTP load for another network resource happened to finish
458. # [11:00] <hsivonen> I still wish ad script authors had a more coherent mental model of how asynchronous processing and document.write interact
459. # [11:01] <annevk> oh, it's also available for the xbox
460. # [11:01] <Hixie> and pc
461. # [11:02] <hsivonen> FWIW, WebKit devs might want to watch out for this same class of evangelism bugs when implementing HTML5-compliant document.write
462. # [11:03] <hsivonen> this particular script tried to sniff for Safari version in order to be able to do the dangerous thing in new Safari releases that "support" it
463. # [11:05] <hsivonen> IE and Opera should be fine, because they haven't previously "supported" crazy asynchronous document.wrtie
464. # [11:06] <hsivonen> I have seen another case, though, that means trouble for WebKit and Presto, because the script assumed that only IE and Firefox support @defer and no one else does
465. # [11:06] <Hixie> ain't the web grand
466. # [11:07] <hsivonen> ain't document.write grand
467. # [11:07] <Hixie> i wish validator.nu warned about empty paragraphs
468. # [11:07] <Hixie> i keep finding places where i have <dt> instead of </dt> and it would have been caught by that warning
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471. # [11:08] <Hixie> oh actually it wouldn't be caught
472. # [11:08] <Hixie> maybe i should make that warning also cover phrasing content elements
473. # [11:09] <Hixie> instead of just flow content ones
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475. # [11:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe you want a warning for omitted optional tags
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477. # [11:12] <Hixie> no, because i use those a lot
478. # [11:12] <Hixie> and indeed things would have been fine here if i'd omitted them
479. # [11:12] <zcorpan> true
480. # [11:13] <zcorpan> maybe you want a warning for included optional tags :P
481. # [11:13] <Hixie> wouldn't have fired in this case
482. # [11:14] <micheil> okay.. turns out with a little convincing ryan dahl will be accepting a websocket protocol implementation into the core of node.js
483. # [11:14] <Hixie> micheil: hopefully not before the protocol is done :-)
484. # [11:14] <micheil> are many more changes expected?
485. # [11:15] <micheil> (as in, will the security stuff stay similar?)
486. # [11:15] <Hixie> who knows
487. # [11:15] <Hixie> the last set of changes weren't "expected" either
488. # [11:15] <micheil> oky
489. # [11:15] <Hixie> ok bed time
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491. # [11:15] <Hixie> nn
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497. # [11:35] <MikeSmithX> so apparently a brief video clip of me being interviewed will be on a Japanese TV program tomorrow night
498. # [11:35] <MikeSmithX> http://www.nhk.or.jp/itwb/
499. # [11:36] <MikeSmithX> they tell me that during the interview, I said "this is the most rapid pace of progress that we have ever had happening around web technologies in the entire history of the development of the web"
500. # [11:36] <MikeSmithX> and that's the part they're going to use
501. # [11:37] <MikeSmithX> DJs, feel free to sample that and use it in your mix tapes
502. # [11:39] <Philip`> More rapid than at the times in the past when people said "hey, let's add images to the web!" and "that sounds like a great idea! let's call it <img>" and two weeks later it was implemented and deployed in all major web browsers?
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504. # [11:40] <zcorpan> Philip`: was it two weeks? i thought it was more like two days
505. # [11:41] <Philip`> Now it takes us five years just to add something like <figure> which doesn't even do anything
506. # [11:41] <MikeSmithX> Philip`: yeah, it ain't the most accurate statement in the world
507. # [11:41] <MikeSmithX> but the *spirit* of the message is what counts
508. # [11:42] <MikeSmithX> I told them they should have used the part where I looked straight into the camera and said, "We are kicking ass all over the rest y'all and there's nothing you can do about it, so suck it up"
509. # [11:42] <MikeSmithX> but for some reason they didn't like that part so much
510. # [11:43] <Philip`> You should have just repeated that phrase for the entirety of the interview, so they'd have no choice but to pick it
511. # [11:43] <zcorpan> MikeSmithX: did you also say "BTW Adobe eats babies"?
512. # [11:43] <MikeSmithX> heh
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514. # [11:44] <zcorpan> Philip`: then they'd probably show the entire interview and MikeSmithX would look like a dork on tv
515. # [11:45] <nessy> Adobe eats my macbook right now
516. # [11:46] <nessy> if you compare the pace of innovation of html5 to the introduction of <canvas>, then it's light speed
517. # [11:47] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
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520. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I told them, "My message to them is very simple: We drink your milkshake!"
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522. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> to paraphrase Daniel Day Lewis
523. # [11:50] * zcorpan doesn't know what MikeSmith is referring to
524. # [11:51] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Did you then kill the interviewer?
525. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> I did
526. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> and then I ate the pieces of him that were left over
527. # [11:52] * zcorpan now knows not to interview MikeSmith
528. # [11:52] <annevk> o_O
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531. # [12:02] <micheil> Hixie: latest google chrome beta doens't support the latest spec
532. # [12:02] <micheil> (based on testing from go's websocket.Handler vs websocket.draft75Handler)
533. # [12:03] <micheil> now I just need to work out how to use it's client version to test against my own implementations
534. # [12:06] <jgraham> micheil: If you need really simple testing you can of course just copy the example from the spec and send it over a raw client socket
535. # [12:07] <jgraham> Won't test all edge cases or anything but should determine if your code works at all
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555. # [13:44] <micheil> jgraham: yeah, I've been doing telnet's to test so far
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566. # [14:39] <Matjas> I recently launched a new site in HTML5, is anyone willing to look at the source and tell me if I'm doing it right? :) http://mathiasbynens.be/
567. # [14:40] <Matjas> I just changed section.note into div.note, to improve my document outline — but is there a better alternative?
568. # [14:42] <Matjas> Also see http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http://mathiasbynens.be/
569. # [14:43] <annevk> shortcut is not a valid link relation
570. # [14:44] * annevk is not really inspired right now; should do some more packing for Tokyo
571. # [14:44] <adactio> Matjas: I think maybe your div.note could be a header element. What do you think?
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575. # [14:46] <Matjas_> annevk: you mean 'shortcut icon'? what should i use instead?
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577. # [14:46] * Matjas_ is now known as Matjas
578. # [14:48] <Matjas> adactio: Hrm, I really don't know. It only appears on the index page
579. # [14:48] <Matjas> If that even matters
580. # [14:49] <adactio> Matjas: Well, I think the contents of div.note would make good header content for the section it's in (I'm thinking on the document level rather than a site level).
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582. # [14:51] <Matjas> adactio: I see. And it probably wouldn't be a problem that this header element only occurs on one page, right?
583. # [14:51] <adactio> Matjas: I don't think so, no
584. # [14:53] <Matjas> adactio: Thanks. Awesome, now I can even omit the class on the element
585. # [14:54] <Matjas> annevk: Switched to rel="icon", thanks
586. # [14:56] <Matjas> annevk: Does that work cross-browser?
587. # [15:00] <svl> Matjas: no; but the browser in which it doesn't work just looks for favicon.ico in / regardless of what you tell it, so this way it'll work "as intended" everywhere.
588. # [15:01] <Matjas> svl: Thanks. Which IE versions are we talking about? :)
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590. # [15:02] <svl> I think 6 and 7. not certain about 8
591. # [15:04] <Matjas> So why is everyone using shortcut as well? Was is valid in HTML 4.01?
592. # [15:05] <Matjas> I found this post on the WHATWG blog which contains an example with shortcut: http://blog.whatwg.org/the-road-to-html-5-link-relations#rel-icon
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594. # [15:06] * Matjas is confused
595. # [15:07] <svl> IE needs shortcut if you don't name your icon favicon.ico
596. # [15:08] <Matjas> So shortcut is not in any spec, but is proprietary? :o
597. # [15:08] <svl> Yes. IIRC it even needs it as the first value, rather than properly treating it as a space-separated value list.
598. # [15:08] <Matjas> Mind = blown.
599. # [15:11] <Matjas> Thanks svl!
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609. # [15:36] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/XML/2010/04/xml-stylesheet/ - PER in a few days
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646. # [17:18] <JonathanNeal> Heyo
647. # [17:21] <Matjas> I'm tired of using technology
648. # [17:21] <Matjas> Why don't you sit down on top of me
649. # [17:21] <Matjas> OH SHI—
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651. # [17:23] <JonathanNeal> ... good exit
652. # [17:25] <miketaylr> indeed
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711. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> Why do Firefox and Chrome both render this with the <th> not centered? data:text/html,<!doctype html><table style="text-align:left"><tr><th>Foo</th></tr><td>Barzabel</td></table>
712. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> There should be a UA rule like th { text-align: center }, but there's not. Instead, <th> contents seem to be centered by magic.
713. # [20:08] <zcorpan> hmm, who was it that took my placeholder.js script and improved it a few days ago?
714. # [20:09] <zcorpan> oh here it is http://fsfe.org/scripts/placeholder.js
715. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> Well, I guess I mean: data:text/html,<!doctype html><table style="text-align:left"><tr><th>Foo<tr><td>Barzabel</table>
716. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> Should produce the same DOM, anyway.
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718. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> Opera too.
719. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> Only IE8 seems to work as expected.
720. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> HTML5 specifies that <th> should have text-align:center, not magic.
721. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> So it'll presumably move over in time.
722. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> So does CSS 2.1.
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734. # [20:26] <othermaciej> WebKit has magic
735. # [20:26] <othermaciej> it converts text-align: auto to text-align: center at style resolution time
736. # [20:27] <othermaciej> for th elements
737. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37590
738. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Is this necessary for compat?
739. # [20:27] <othermaciej> I am not sure if it's possible to do all the weird legacy compat stuff with an explicit text-align: center rule in place
740. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> What weird legacy compat stuff needs to be done? Are th's sometimes magically not centered?
741. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> Does this need to be specced somewhere?
742. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> I'm curious too. If you're referring to some of the aligning attributes or whatnot, those are on the author level, and thus override UA-level rules.
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745. # [20:59] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I don't know if our behavior is necessary
746. # [20:59] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: is the behavior cited in the bug above divergent from other browsers?
747. # [20:59] <othermaciej> very specifically what we do is that for th, text-align: auto is interpreted as text-align: center at style resolution time
748. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, I covered that in the bug. Other browsers do the same, except IE8.
749. # [21:00] <othermaciej> (instead of being equivalent to left as for most elements)
750. # [21:00] <othermaciej> I suspect the bug could be fixed by making th have an explicit text-align: auto property in the UA stylesheet
751. # [21:00] <othermaciej> but I don't know if this would break anything else
752. # [21:00] * zcorpan updates http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/js/placeholder-demo.htm
753. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Hmm, weird.
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765. # [21:47] <smaug> Hixie: thanks
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770. # [21:53] <Hixie> np
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777. # [22:17] <estellevw> hi. There's a small discussion going on about section versus article in my blog, and i would love to get some feedback (either here or within the comments section) as to what is right. My understanding of the spec is that sections can be nested in articles, and articles can be nested in sections. Am i wrong? http://www.standardista.com/html5-section-v-article/
778. # [22:17] <Dashiva> That's right
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782. # [22:19] <Dashiva> It might possibly be easier to think "articles (which have sections) can contain articles" instead of "sections can contain articles"
783. # [22:19] <JonathanNeal> Hey, everybody!
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785. # [22:20] <paul_irish> so in general, Dashiva, you expect sections will be contained by an article?
786. # [22:21] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-128-10.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
787. # [22:22] <JonathanNeal> Whoa whoa whoa, are we saying that articles and sections are no longer mutually exclusive?
788. # [22:23] <paul_irish> (i'm not asking for rules, just what we expect common use will be)
789. # [22:24] <Dashiva> paul_irish: No
790. # [22:25] <Dashiva> But you can consider the a sufficiently important child of the <body> element a pseudo-article
791. # [22:27] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
792. # [22:29] <estellevw> i do think of it as.... if its datable, it's an article
793. # [22:29] <estellevw> so, you can have articles.... dated items ... a group of them, in a section
794. # [22:29] <estellevw> and you can have a bunch of sections in a very long article
795. # [22:30] <estellevw> i don't see off the top of my head a use case for article within article, but i do section in section
796. # [22:30] <estellevw> doesn't mean there isn't a use case for articles within articles
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798. # [22:30] <estellevw> i just can't come up with one
799. # [22:31] <Dashiva> Newspaper letters to the editor
800. # [22:31] <Dashiva> The page itself is one article, but each letter can also be an article
801. # [22:32] <estellevw> ah, good one
802. # [22:32] <estellevw> thank you
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805. # [22:38] <JonathanNeal> Asides can be in articles, right?
806. # [22:43] <Hixie> sure
807. # [22:45] <JonathanNeal> Goodie.
808. # [22:47] <othermaciej> estellevw: the spec definitions of article and section just got reworded recently
809. # [22:47] <othermaciej> estellevw: don't know if that addresses any of your comment debate but it might be worth looking at
810. # [22:47] <JonathanNeal> oh neato
811. # [22:48] <othermaciej> estellevw: I like your explanation of how a section can be either bigger or smaller than an article
812. # [22:48] <othermaciej> that makes sense to me
813. # [22:48] <estellevw> thanks
814. # [22:48] <estellevw> re-reading the spec :(
815. # [22:49] * JonathanNeal looking for the change
816. # [22:49] <othermaciej> reading the spec is a :( instead of a :)?
817. # [22:49] <othermaciej> it's mainly in the first sentence of each definition I think
818. # [22:49] <estellevw> lol.
819. # [22:49] <JonathanNeal> reading the spec is #)
820. # [22:49] <estellevw> yeah, the way i was thinking of it still makes sense
821. # [22:49] <othermaciej> sometimes reading the spec is O_o
822. # [22:50] <estellevw> i hadn't read the spec since Friday night (because i have a life ;) )
823. # [22:50] <JonathanNeal> i hadn't read the spec because I'm a zombie with his tongue sticking out :PF
824. # [22:50] <estellevw> i was afraid it had changed this then... now just realized, i reread that on monday.
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826. # [22:51] <Hixie> when reading the spec is O_o, please file a bug :-)
827. # [22:52] <estellevw> Hixie: The spec is so wonderful, that I haven't read any thing else is a few months :D
828. # [22:52] <othermaciej> Hixie: when I have that reaction, it's usually due to some crazy thing that's needed for legacy compat
829. # [22:53] <estellevw> is there a way to see ... other than the top of the page, when something has changed
830. # [22:53] <estellevw> like an SVN diff per line?
831. # [22:53] <othermaciej> estellevw: there is a twitter feed of spec changes
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833. # [22:53] <estellevw> ah. twitterName please
834. # [22:53] <othermaciej> http://twitter.com/html5
835. # [22:53] <estellevw> thanks
836. # [22:53] <othermaciej> that links to the diffs for each change
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838. # [22:53] <Hixie> if you just want non-editorial changes, twitter.com/whatwg might be more useful
839. # [22:54] <KaOSoFt> Hello.
840. # [22:54] <Hixie> it also includes diffs for other specs than html5 that are part of complete.html, like websockets
841. # [22:54] <Hixie> also http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker might be helpful
842. # [22:55] <estellevw> ah, that is perfect. thank you
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845. # [22:56] <othermaciej> I like the examples from your post of a newspaper section vs. a section of an article
846. # [22:56] <othermaciej> maybe the spec could cite examples like that
847. # [22:56] <Hixie> happy to add more section and article examples, though there's already quite a few
848. # [22:56] <Hixie> file a bug
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850. # [22:57] <Hixie> maybe i should have a summary of usage section for the sectioning elements
851. # [22:57] <Hixie> like we do for phrasing
852. # [22:57] <Hixie> s/have/add/
853. # [22:57] <KaOSoFt> It isn't mandatory to have a form if I want an <input> element, right? I just need a text-box and a submit button for searching.
854. # [22:57] <othermaciej> that sounds like a good idea
855. # [22:57] <othermaciej> it looks like you don't have an example of a section containing articles
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857. # [22:58] <Hixie> KaOSoFt: correc
858. # [22:58] <Hixie> t
859. # [22:58] <othermaciej> oh, I guess you do, for the blog post with comments
860. # [22:58] <KaOSoFt> Hixie- Thanks. ^_^
861. # [23:01] <KaOSoFt> "<othermaciej> I like the examples from your post of a newspaper section vs. a section of an article"
862. # [23:01] <KaOSoFt> Where is this?
863. # [23:01] <othermaciej> KaOSoFt: http://www.standardista.com/html5-section-v-article/
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866. # [23:05] <JonathanNeal> estellevw's explanation is probably one of the best.
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868. # [23:07] <JonathanNeal> Newspaper letters to the editor, I was wondering if those are sections vs articles, much like a comment section might be a section. However, in the comment section one could say that is definitely datable.
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870. # [23:09] <JonathanNeal> If I knew how to submit stuff to gsnedders's tool, I would suggest the outline allows marking which type of element is in use (it might make people feel better about those untitled navs and asides)
871. # [23:09] <JonathanNeal> I would suggest == I would write and submit for review
872. # [23:11] <JonathanNeal> What is the recommended element for comments on a blog post?
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874. # [23:11] * tabatkin1 is now known as TabAtkins__
875. # [23:11] <estellevw> the comments is a section, and each comment is dates do article
876. # [23:12] <estellevw> do = so
877. # [23:12] <JonathanNeal> And would that section belong to the article that is the blog post?
878. # [23:12] <estellevw> yes
879. # [23:12] <estellevw> at least, that's my take on it
880. # [23:12] * TabAtkins__ came in late, but agrees with what estellevw is saying.
881. # [23:13] <JonathanNeal> <article>... blog post heading and content <section>... blog post comment heading and <article ... various comments /></section></article>
882. # [23:13] <JonathanNeal> where various comments represents multiple articles.
883. # [23:14] <JonathanNeal> I agree too, just mulling the concept over.
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885. # [23:16] <JonathanNeal> In a traditional newspaper, each article references the date of the entire paper (usually at the top). Wonder if there would be a geeky semantic way to write in that reference. I would totally make a fake newspaper as HTML5 sample.
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889. # [23:32] <TabAtkins__> JonathanNeal: Nope, you'd have to include the <time pubdate> in every <article>.
890. # [23:32] <JonathanNeal> No referencing? Not even with microdata?
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892. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> If you have a metadata vocabulary appropriate to the task, then of course you can reference it. But that has nothing to do with the implied connection between an <article> and a <time pubdate> that HTML5 defines.
893. # [23:40] <estellevw> hhmmm, so a nested article doesn't inherit the pubdate of the parent article.
894. # [23:41] <estellevw> makes sesne
895. # [23:41] <estellevw> if instead of thinking of a daily newspaper, think of a monthly mag maybe
896. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Or just think of blog posts - the pubdate on the post has nothing to do with the pubdate on the comments.
897. # [23:41] <estellevw> the magazine may come out on april 1, but the letters to the editor each have their own dates
898. # [23:42] <estellevw> exactly
899. # [23:42] <JonathanNeal> All of that would work even if it inherited the date.
900. # [23:42] <JonathanNeal> If you do not specify the date, it could be implied from an ancestor.
901. # [23:44] <JonathanNeal> Well, right now you can't, but in theory what issue would you take with that?
902. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> The fact that it would be inaccurate?
903. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Especially in the common case, that of blog comments?
904. # [23:52] <JonathanNeal> wouldn't the blog comments specify the date?
905. # [23:52] <JonathanNeal> Otherwise, they're just as omitted in either case.
906. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Possibly. If they do, they're covered. But if they don't, your suggestion would imply that they have the same pubdate as the article they're attached to.
907. # [23:54] <JonathanNeal> You'd rather they had nothing than possibly something. That's fair, you can have them work strict in that sense.
908. # [23:56] <JonathanNeal> It would be my preference that inheritance is an option. I may be alone.
909. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> What's wrong with just specifying <time pubdate> in the descendant articles?
910. # [23:59] <JonathanNeal> It's easier to not do something than to do something. I think it could be less strict. I think there's wiggle room. To compare, we've been talking about comments as articles, then comments aren't exactly independantly distributable content.
911. # Session Close: Thu Apr 15 00:00:00 2010

The end :)