/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-23 / end

Options:

1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 23 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:17] * Quits: aroben|meeting (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4. # [00:20] <Hixie> hm
5. # [00:20] <Hixie> cross-origin timed tracks are going to be an issue
6. # [00:21] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-uosravwqrmraqdgk) (Remote host closed the connection)
7. # [00:21] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-uqijuewakquwtvmd)
8. # [00:22] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.203.15.159) (Read error: Operation timed out)
9. # [00:23] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
10. # [00:25] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Hey! Listen!)
11. # [00:29] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36)
12. # [00:30] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
13. # [00:36] <nessy> Hixie: yeah - hsivonen suggested iframe-like solution for that
14. # [00:37] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au)
15. # [00:44] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@207.59.145.201) (Quit: shepazu)
16. # [00:45] * Joins: micheil_mbp (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au)
17. # [00:48] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
18. # [00:48] * micheil_mbp is now known as micheil
19. # [00:48] * Joins: beilabs (~beilabs@ppp121-44-21-223.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net)
20. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yeah, I'm in the open, and I can put a mail to the list.
21. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Manual pass/fail is the first step because, frankly, that's the easiest thing to do. Building it as a testing module, and then building additional modules that work automatically, enable me to get a verifiably working design quicker.
22. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Basically it's the simplest thing that works.
23. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Philip`: It doesn't take 3 months of work, it takes 3 months of my time, alongside all the other things I'm doing. ^_^
24. # [00:51] * Joins: rauchg (~rauchg@190.136.152.216)
25. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Suffice to say, though, that I'm not coming up with this stuff myself - arronei and fantasai, in charge of the CSS test suite, are basically codevelopers with me, and I've talked with plh as well about it.
26. # [00:53] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
27. # [00:56] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
28. # [01:00] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-69-166-128.rmo.bellsouth.net)
29. # [01:01] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
30. # [01:01] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
31. # [01:02] * Quits: jamk (~jamk@dhcp-095-096-190-098.chello.nl)
32. # [01:04] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
33. # [01:06] * Joins: paul_irish_ (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
34. # [01:08] <nessy> Hixie: do you mind if I upload some more examples to the wiki?
35. # [01:08] * Joins: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com)
36. # [01:08] * Parts: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com)
37. # [01:08] <nessy> I have one with a pretty substantial background from a mobile phone app
38. # [01:08] * Joins: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com)
39. # [01:08] <tiglionabbit> do any browsers implement the non-breaking content in columns css yet?
40. # [01:08] <Hixie> nessy: go for it
41. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> tiglionabbit: I don't think so, though check latest Opera.
42. # [01:09] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
43. # [01:09] <tiglionabbit> that's a shame. multi column is kind of gimped without it, as far as i'm concerned
44. # [01:09] <tiglionabbit> I guess I'll have to use inline blocks instead?
45. # [01:10] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
46. # [01:10] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
47. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> I agree, it kind of is. Inline-blocks sort of go in the opposite direction, though, don't they? What display are you trying to achieve?
48. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> (I've done some things where multicol or inline-block were both usable, and settled on inline-block.)
49. # [01:12] <tiglionabbit> well, I I'm trying to do a fluid grid layout
50. # [01:12] <tiglionabbit> of a bunch of boxes
51. # [01:12] <tiglionabbit> I'd like them to be ordered the way that multi column does, but I suppose inline block ordering is decent
52. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Are the columns equal-width? If so, then yeah, just do inline-block.
53. # [01:12] <tiglionabbit> the problem with multi-column is that my blocks keep getting chopped in half
54. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Alternately, use Flexbox. As long as you don't do anything too fancy, it'll work in FF, Safari, and Chrome.
55. # [01:13] <tiglionabbit> multi-column can use different column widths?
56. # [01:13] <tiglionabbit> what's flexbox?
57. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> tiglionabbit: Actually, no, not yet, but it's planned to make it possible later.
58. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> google for "css flexbox"
59. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Also, there's a relatively recent article on mozhacks about flexbox.
60. # [01:16] <tiglionabbit> thanks =]
61. # [01:16] * Quits: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com) (Quit: tiglionabbit)
62. # [01:20] <nessy> Hixie: check out http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Use_cases_for_timed_tracks_rendered_over_video_by_the_UA - I've also added a new section - hope that fits your requirements
63. # [01:21] <Hixie> i don't understand what's special about the background emphasis one
64. # [01:21] * Quits: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.7a4pre/20100324184354])
65. # [01:21] * Quits: danbri_ (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
66. # [01:21] <Hixie> how is it different from the other plain text ones?
67. # [01:22] <nessy> ah just that on the Web you wouldn't be doing such a big black background thingy under the text, but on mobile it's important for readability
68. # [01:22] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
69. # [01:22] <nessy> I don't mind adding them to the other plain text ones - just wanted to make sure that background requirement is considered
70. # [01:22] <nessy> I don't really know how you arrived at your categories
71. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Because simply doing a stroked border on the text isn't enough on mobiles?
72. # [01:23] <nessy> yeah - not readable
73. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> Kk.
74. # [01:23] * Joins: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com)
75. # [01:24] <nessy> :)
76. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> nessy, what's your name on the lists?
77. # [01:24] <nessy> email? I'm Silvia Pfeiffer
78. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> I thought so. Just making sure. It's helpful to connect my people-concepts together. ^_^
79. # [01:25] <nessy> surprised my whois doesn't tell - Adium is so much worse in comparison to xchat!
80. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, no useful info.
81. # [01:26] <nessy> but I've given it to Adium - strange
82. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> Your ircname is "Adium User".
83. # [01:26] <nessy> yeah, not very useful
84. # [01:28] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
85. # [01:31] <Hixie> nessy: ah, i see
86. # [01:31] <nessy> hey, do you want this one, too? http://joeclark.org/access/crtc/CRTC-2008/reply/images/CCfoto-CBC-CC-ST-ManWithoutaFace.jpg
87. # [01:31] <Hixie> i think that's more of an example of things going terribly wrong, but sure :-)
88. # [01:31] <nessy> kinda shows the problem with open & closed captions, plus music notes
89. # [01:31] <nessy> yeah, indeed!
90. # [01:31] <Hixie> shows an example of what we should avoid :-)
91. # [01:31] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
92. # [01:32] <Hixie> the musical notes thing is a non-issue, turns out Unicode has notes in it
93. # [01:32] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ajfhogunkvqtlqas)
94. # [01:32] <nessy> ah, cool
95. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Unicode has everything in it.
96. # [01:32] <nessy> I put it into positioning for now
97. # [01:32] * Quits: murz (~mmurraywa@wcproxy.msnbc.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
98. # [01:33] <nessy> joe clark seems to have a fair few, here's another one http://joeclark.org/access/crtc/CRTC-2008/reply/images/BCCS_unbelievably_wordy_speaker_ID_1.jpg
99. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> That seems reasonable. We can't auto-solve it, since there's no way to detect when baked-in captioning is present.
100. # [01:34] <nessy> shows providing of speaker names
101. # [01:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins: except klingon
102. # [01:34] <nessy> lol
103. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Well, someone's put that in one of the private use ranges. You just need the right font. ^_^
104. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> Why did they reject Klingon? :(
105. # [01:34] <Hixie> (it has several fictional languages, but they apparently drew the line at klingon and rejected it)
106. # [01:34] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-cfctjuibrnsiqlco) (Quit: dglazkov)
107. # [01:35] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.246.19.224)
108. # [01:36] * Quits: rauchg (~rauchg@190.136.152.216) (Quit: rauchg)
109. # [01:36] <AryehGregor> Does it have Tolkien's Elvish?
110. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I don't think it includes any fictional languages. Cirth and Tengwar are "proposed for inclusion", but not actually in the SMP.
111. # [01:37] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
112. # [01:37] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
113. # [01:38] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Which of his Elvishes?
114. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Any.
115. # [01:39] <Philip`> If somebody made up a new language in a style that emulated Tolkien, would it be an Elvish impersonator?
116. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> The only language in Unicode which could be said to be "fictional" is the Shavian alphabet, but it wasn't invented for a story - it's just a semi-phonetic alphabet for English.
117. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> http://www.magicdeckbuilder.com/public/cards/1-Illegal/1-Creatures/Elvish%20Impersonators.jpg
118. # [01:41] <Hixie> i thought at least one fictional alphabet had made it in... i may be mistaken
119. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> If only they didn't have to worry about UTF-16, they could have kept 2^32 possible characters and accepted all the writing systems out there.
120. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> The Phaistos Disc script might be fictional. Nobody's sure if it's a hoax or not yet.
121. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> Of course, you'd think they'd have enough room even now for as many alphabets as they like.
122. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> As long as they're not logographies.
123. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> (I like the words "logography" and "syllabary". They're just cool words.)
124. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> They do. We're only using Planes 0, 1, and 2. We *might* use Plane 3.
125. # [01:44] <Hixie> oh dear lord they accepted the emoticons block
126. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> What's the range?
127. # [01:44] <Hixie> 1F600..1F64F
128. # [01:44] <Hixie> that's a lot of emoticons
129. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> You could add non-writing-system stuff like emoticons and icons without limit.
130. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> Wikipedia is out of date!
131. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> It only lists through Domino Tiles (1f09f) in plane 1.
132. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> (I recently looked for icons of a lion or tablets to replace the star of David at aryeh.name, but didn't find any. Will have to think of something else, I don't really like it much.)
133. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, {{sofixit}}
134. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> I will, as soon as I find what's missing between 1f0a0 and 1f600.
135. # [01:48] <Hixie> the emoticons aren't in yet
136. # [01:48] <Hixie> they're approved for addition, but have yet to go through the ISO part of the proess
137. # [01:48] <Hixie> see the pipeline table
138. # [01:48] <Hixie> http://www.unicode.org/alloc/Pipeline.html
139. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> Ah, yup.
140. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> Ok, then I won't edit the wiki page yet. Nothing beyond 1f0a0 is approved *yet*.
141. # [01:51] * Hixie finds http://unicode.org/~scherer/emoji4unicode/snapshot/NamesList.txt and starts drooling
142. # [01:51] <Hixie> U+1F36F HONEY POT mmmmm
143. # [01:52] <Hixie> there's a Facial parts symbols section
144. # [01:52] <Hixie> lol
145. # [01:53] <Hixie> U+1F47D EXTRATERRESTRIAL ALIEN!!!
146. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> Are there drawings of what these will look like?
147. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> 1F307 SUNSET OVER BUILDINGS
148. # [01:53] <Hixie> U+1F47E ALIEN MONSTER!!!
149. # [01:53] <Hixie> i like that 1F479 and 1F47A are specifically japanese
150. # [01:53] <Hixie> wouldn't want any EUROPEAN ogres
151. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> 1F3E8 HOTEL
152. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> 1F3E9 LOVE HOTEL
153. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> 1F3EA CONVENIENCE STORE
154. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> 1F3EC DEPARTMENT STORE
155. # [01:54] <Hixie> um, 1F499 to 1F49C are identical except for colour
156. # [01:54] <Hixie> that ought to be interesting
157. # [01:54] <Hixie> up to now unicode has been black and white
158. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> I have no idea what some of these will look like.
159. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> 1F452 WOMANS HAT
160. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> Ooh, handy! 1F464 BUST IN SILHOUETTE
161. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> = guest account
162. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> 1F471 WESTERN PERSON
163. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> . . .
164. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> Is it supposed to emphasize the round eyes or something?
165. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> 8-|
166. # [01:56] <Hixie> 1F5FB to 1F5FE is going to be a terrible precedent
167. # [01:56] <Hixie> prepare for planes 2-14 being full of landmark icons
168. # [01:56] <AryehGregor> Seriously, though, are there reference pictures for these, or it's like every Unicode font will have a totally different-looking 1F47D EXTRATERRESTRIAL ALIEN?
169. # [01:56] <Hixie> no idea
170. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> I'm going with the latter.
171. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> Some of these things will only be remotely legible at huge font sizes.
172. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> What's up with how many of these are Japanese, anyway?
173. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> Four out of five of "Cultural symbols" are Japanese, for instance.
174. # [01:58] <Hixie> emojicons are all japanese
175. # [01:58] <Hixie> nobody else seems to have gone quite as crazy as they have with this stuff
176. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> 1F5FE SILHOUETTE OF JAPAN? So I guess we need a silhouette of all other countries too, and we should add new ones every time there's a successful war?
177. # [01:59] <Hixie> like i said above :-)
178. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> "SILHOUETTE OF FICTITIOUSTAN BETWEEN APRIL AND DECEMBER 2008"
179. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> :/
180. # [01:59] * paul_irish is now known as Paul___
181. # [02:00] * Paul___ is now known as Paul_Irish
182. # [02:01] <Hixie> http://www.unicode.org/~scherer/emoji4unicode/snapshot/emojidata.pdf
183. # [02:01] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ajfhogunkvqtlqas) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
184. # [02:02] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
185. # [02:03] <Hixie> the ones in red are the new ones
186. # [02:05] <AryehGregor> I'm torn between seeing this as insane and seeing it as awesome.
187. # [02:05] <Hixie> yes!
188. # [02:05] <Hixie> some of these are going to be really hard to explain in 1000 years to our children on another planet
189. # [02:05] <Hixie> my sig is so changing once this goes through
190. # [02:05] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-kmiqzvxelobbijal) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
191. # [02:06] * Quits: JoePeck (~jjp@2620:0:1b00:1f02:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
192. # [02:06] * Joins: JoePeck (~jjp@2620:0:1b00:1f02:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
193. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> Aw man, so good.
194. # [02:07] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
195. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> I like how U+1F473 ALIEN MONSTER looks completely different between the suggested symbol and the actual characters as implemented in two mobile phones.
196. # [02:08] <Hixie> i love the separate "HOTEL" and "LOVE HOTEL" entries
197. # [02:08] <TabAtkins> That's how you know it's Japanese.
198. # [02:08] <Hixie> it really is hilarious to see what they include in emoji
199. # [02:09] <Hixie> theres a dozen or two animals and another dozen insects, out of the millions of known animals, which itself represents like 2% of all animals
200. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> U+1F4A9 PILE OF POO
201. # [02:09] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~kaosoft@190.24.156.162) (Quit: Leaving)
202. # [02:11] <Hixie> ah, i can finally have a single character as my away message when I sleep: U+1F4A4
203. # [02:12] <Hixie> lol U+1F4B8 MONEY WITH WINGS
204. # [02:12] <Hixie> man i almost feel bad about saying "no" to people who ask for crazy things in HTML now
205. # [02:14] <TabAtkins> The difference is that nobody expects everyone to implement all of unicode.
206. # [02:14] <Hixie> ok seriously this is quite insane. Now if aliens come, instead of sending them wikipedia, we can just ship them the Unicode table and they can pretty much learn everything they want about our culture from that.
207. # [02:14] <Paul_Irish> http://paulirish.com/i/f6b0.png money with wings
208. # [02:15] <AryehGregor> On a totally different off-topic note, is this true or what? http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2010/04/how-i-saved-gaming-industry-overnight.html
209. # [02:15] <AryehGregor> The gaming industry is completely insane in how it throws away everything it creates.
210. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> I agree.
211. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> But I also agree with the commenter who says that if you stick with roughly the same technology, you actually have to offer a compelling story to get people to like your product.
212. # [02:17] <AryehGregor> You don't need story, mechanics is fine.
213. # [02:17] <AryehGregor> But you only redo the stuff you need to.
214. # [02:17] <Hixie> lol, they didn't include FACE WITH ROLLING EYES. I guess the irony would have been too great?
215. # [02:17] <AryehGregor> Valve is a great example.
216. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> Sure, for some things. Still more difficult than just paying people to make something completely new and shiny.
217. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> That requires no creativity, just technical acumen.
218. # [02:18] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.17.104) (Quit: ap)
219. # [02:18] * Quits: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
220. # [02:19] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.173) (Quit: othermaciej)
221. # [02:20] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.173)
222. # [02:20] <nessy> at least this would be a simple way to get icons into captions
223. # [02:20] <nessy> apart, of course, for company logos ;)
224. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> That's what Plane 6 is for.
225. # [02:24] <othermaciej> nessy: if you're on the Mac, I recommend Colloquy for IRC
226. # [02:24] * Quits: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
227. # [02:24] <nessy> ok, will try it out
228. # [02:25] * Joins: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com)
229. # [02:25] <nessy> does it hook into irc, jabber, gtalk, and twitter?
230. # [02:25] <nessy> I like to have all that stuff in one app
231. # [02:26] * Joins: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242)
232. # [02:27] <Hixie> for jabber/gtalk to irc, i recommend bitlbee
233. # [02:27] <Hixie> for twitter to irc, i recommend tircd
234. # [02:27] <Hixie> both are compatible with any irc client
235. # [02:28] <Hixie> since they're gateway servers
236. # [02:28] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
237. # [02:28] <othermaciej> nessy: it only does IRC, but it's way better for IRC than Adium is
238. # [02:29] <nessy> I used to use tircd, but am finding the integration of twitter directly in Adium really nice
239. # [02:29] <nessy> then I don't have to run another program - it just does it
240. # [02:29] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
241. # [02:32] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@EM111-188-73-168.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
242. # [02:32] * Joins: tiglionabbit_ (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com)
243. # [02:33] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
244. # [02:34] <TabAtkins> Summary of RDFa 1.1: A ridiculously verbose way of expressing identical metadata relationships as Microdata. With datatypes.
245. # [02:35] * Quits: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
246. # [02:35] * tiglionabbit_ is now known as tiglionabbit
247. # [02:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that's not really fair, rdfa does way more than microdata. For example it does per-field typing, and supports XML literals.
248. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> I said per-field typing. ^_^ XML literals is indeed something it has over Microdata.
249. # [02:37] * Quits: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
250. # [02:37] <Hixie> and it has full CURIE support
251. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> That's not a benefit.
252. # [02:37] * Joins: tiglionabbit (~tiglionab@office-sjc.playdom.com)
253. # [02:37] <Hixie> oh
254. # [02:37] <Hixie> well i'm sure it can be sold as a benefit
255. # [02:37] <Hixie> does microdata do CURIES? I think not!
256. # [02:37] <Hixie> clearly microdata is inferior
257. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Microdata does CURIES via an implicit @vocab mechanism.
258. # [02:37] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
259. # [02:38] <Hixie> i have no idea what that means but it sounds good, i like it
260. # [02:38] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-169-180-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
261. # [02:38] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-169-180-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
262. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> @vocab is just RDFa1.1's way of making you not need to use prefixes. Any property nested in the @vocab element that doesn't have a prefix uses the @vocab value as its prefix.
263. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> Alternately: the mechanism isn't implicit, but it's covered by @itemtype.
264. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> Which I think is actually more accurate.
265. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> The RDFa 1.1 spec doesn't do a great job of explaining what all the attributes do. It took some hunting to discover that @typeof and @datatype are the same thing, with the former for the triple-subject and the latter for the triple-object.
266. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Also: chaining is a bad, confusing idea and I hate it.
267. # [02:45] <TabAtkins> Additionally: very confused about why/how @src is always a subject, never an object, but @href is always an object, never a subject.
268. # [02:46] <TabAtkins> That's not true. @src can be an object too, at the same time as it's functioning as a subject and a scoping indicator.
269. # [02:47] <roc> Colloquy is rubbish, it crashes, won't reconnect when I get back on the network, and gets into weird rendering states
270. # [02:47] <TabAtkins> Just run irssi.
271. # [02:47] <roc> of course I still use it, so I suppose it's not that bad or else I'm just a masochist
272. # [02:49] <Hixie> nessy: thanks (re your mail)
273. # [02:49] <nessy> thought you might like it :)
274. # [02:49] <nessy> many ppl working behind the scenes to make this happen
275. # [02:49] * Hixie is wondering what to do about positioning captions
276. # [02:49] <Hixie> considering just the horizontal dimension for now
277. # [02:50] <Hixie> there are three variables for a cue:
278. # [02:50] <Hixie> horizontal position, size of the box, and the alignment of the text within the box
279. # [02:50] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
280. # [02:50] <Hixie> http://docs.google.com/drawings/edit?id=1LXroDh1tSee1YM79toEMo6OEdlI2Du5EfoWt7mSmc8U&hl=en
281. # [02:51] <Hixie> there's two ways i can think of doing this: either aligning the alignment edge to the given horizontal position, or
282. # [02:51] <Hixie> aligning the point along the box in the horizontal dimension that is the given distance along the box as a fraction of the box width to the equivalent position on the video as a fraction of the video width
283. # [02:51] <Hixie> the latter works really well if the width is known ahead of time and is not 100%
284. # [02:52] <Hixie> the former works really well if the horizontal position is less than 75% or so
285. # [02:52] <Hixie> the latter makes the position irrelevant if the width is 100% though
286. # [02:52] * nessy is just going through email and reached the public-html thread ;)
287. # [02:53] <TabAtkins> I'm confused about how the last box in the second example works.
288. # [02:53] <Hixie> and the former fails dramatically for the case of the position being 100%
289. # [02:53] <TabAtkins> Omitted size implies 100%, and thus ignores H?
290. # [02:53] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the point 50% along the way of the box is aligned to the point 50% along the video
291. # [02:53] <TabAtkins> Oh, duh, got it.
292. # [02:53] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's just that since the dimension is 100% (presumably, by default), that is indistinguishable to any other position
293. # [02:54] <TabAtkins> I like that usage. It's very natural in CSS backgrounds.
294. # [02:54] <Hixie> yeah but it totally makes the position useless if the width is not known
295. # [02:54] <Hixie> it's as bad as the last case in the first box
296. # [02:54] <TabAtkins> Unless you introduce some concept of "shrinkwrap" for width.
297. # [02:54] <nessy> for the positioning and styling stuff, can't we use CSS directly?
298. # [02:54] <Hixie> TabAtkins: if we do that, then each cue would align differently
299. # [02:55] <Hixie> nessy: CSS doesn't have the magic avoidance we need to add for titles to avoid the overlapping titles issue
300. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> Yes? So either you do a definite size, or just deal with it.
301. # [02:55] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'd rather the default was pretty :-)
302. # [02:55] <nessy> hmmm…
303. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> I don't really have an opinion on whether it's better to shrinkwrap or just expand to full width.
304. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> The latter seems like it would be fine, personally.
305. # [02:56] <Hixie> maybe the default should be to do absolute positions, except if you set a width, then it does the second case...
306. # [02:56] <Hixie> though then you still have the other problem...
307. # [02:56] <Hixie> i guess the question is
308. # [02:56] <Hixie> what should happen if you say a left-aligned box is at position 100% horizontally?
309. # [02:57] <Hixie> does that even make sense?
310. # [02:57] <TabAtkins> That's why always doing the latter is best.
311. # [02:57] <TabAtkins> So that situation actually produces something good - a right-aligned box.
312. # [02:57] <Hixie> always doing the latter works fine except when width is automatic, then it's counterintuitive or ugly depending on how we do it
313. # [02:58] <Hixie> no, it produces a left-aligned box that is the full width of the screen :-)
314. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> If the width is auto positioning it doesn't make sense, given our requirement that it shouldn't go out of the screen.
315. # [02:58] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: leaving)
316. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> At least, horiz positioning it doesn't.
317. # [02:58] <Hixie> if the size of the box is 100%, and we use the case-2 alignment mechanism, then the position has no effect
318. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> Yes.
319. # [02:58] <Hixie> yeah maybe that's the answer... if it has no width, then ignore the horizontal positioning
320. # [02:59] <erlehmann> Hixie, overlapping title avoidance ? couldn't you just create pseudo-boxes that become more if there are more subtitles ? styling like video::subtitle:first-of-type() etc ?
321. # [02:59] <Hixie> (and say so explictly)
322. # [02:59] <TabAtkins> Phew. Just got through Chapter 8 of RDFa 1.1. There aren't words to describe how stupid the complexity of the processing here is.
323. # [02:59] <Hixie> erlehmann: watch the titles at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG9KluukpJI#t=2m40
324. # [02:59] <Hixie> erlehmann: i'd like us to get that effect without the author having to say anything about the positioning
325. # [03:00] <nessy> I am confused about this whole positioning thing
326. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> Unfortuantely there's no way to "fix" it without just dropping the whole concept and saying "Use raw RDF, or Microdata."
327. # [03:00] <erlehmann> words fail me to describe the awesome that animu has in defining this part of the spec
328. # [03:01] <Hixie> erlehmann: the same thing occurs in lots of other contexts too, it's just that anime is the main way most of us geeks get exposed to fancy subtitle effects :-)
329. # [03:02] <nessy> Hixie: do I understand correctly that you are trying to put the avoidance straight into the caption file format?
330. # [03:02] * Joins: riven` (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
331. # [03:02] <Hixie> nessy: straight into the processing model for the format, yeah
332. # [03:02] <Hixie> not into the format itself
333. # [03:02] <Hixie> i.e. there should be no syntax for this
334. # [03:02] <Hixie> it should just happen
335. # [03:02] <nessy> but wouldn't you only know of overlapping conflicts if you have all the different caption tracks analysed?
336. # [03:03] <nessy> typicallly, the ones that conflict would come from different caption files
337. # [03:03] <Hixie> if all the tracks are using the same format, then no, you just do it on the fly
338. # [03:03] <Hixie> for rendering, doesn't matter which track the files come from
339. # [03:03] <nessy> who would do it? at which level?
340. # [03:03] <Hixie> the UA
341. # [03:03] <Hixie> when rendering
342. # [03:04] <Hixie> (or the media subsystem, or whatever is responsible for this)
343. # [03:04] <nessy> ok, follow
344. # [03:04] <nessy> so, what do you need to put into the files then to make that happen?
345. # [03:04] <othermaciej> ideally, you want a caption format that would be reasonable for either a web engine or a media engine to render
346. # [03:04] <Hixie> nessy: hopefully nothing
347. # [03:04] <othermaciej> since implementation strategies may differ
348. # [03:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, 100% agree
349. # [03:05] <nessy> ok, I follow :)
350. # [03:05] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
351. # [03:05] <nessy> so, why would CSS styling then not work per caption file?
352. # [03:06] <Hixie> not sure what you mean
353. # [03:06] <Hixie> why would CSS styling not work?
354. # [03:06] <Hixie> work for what?
355. # [03:06] <nessy> and positioning, I mean
356. # [03:07] <Hixie> i don't understand how you'd use CSS to do the positioning.
357. # [03:07] <nessy> the part of CSS that does positioning
358. # [03:07] <nessy> CSS has alignment properties and stuff, right?
359. # [03:08] <nessy> I'm trying to understand why there is a need for the horizontal positioning (H) and alignment (A) stuff to be different from CSS
360. # [03:08] <Hixie> CSS has like a dozen different layout mechanisms, i don't see how any of them would work here though
361. # [03:08] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@EM111-188-73-168.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
362. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> Actually... Flexbox + abspos would probably work great.
363. # [03:09] <Hixie> i mean, i intend to define things in term of the block/inline/vertical layout mechanisms, but you still have to position those somehow
364. # [03:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins: including for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG9KluukpJI#t=2m40 ?
365. # [03:09] <nessy> ok, just go ahead - maybe things get clearer when I see it all specified
366. # [03:09] <nessy> I'm just struggling to follow the logic
367. # [03:10] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That'd be absposing the translations of the writing on the picture.
368. # [03:10] <Hixie> TabAtkins: no i mean the way the second title doesn't move when the first goes away
369. # [03:10] <Hixie> TabAtkins: and the way the second one appears above the first automatically (without being given explicit instructions of where to appear)
370. # [03:10] <Hixie> nessy: i might be missing something obvious... if you have a proposal for how to make it work with CSS, i'm all ears
371. # [03:11] <TabAtkins> The former - no, unless you have a mechanism for setting things to visibility:hidden when they overlap, then visibility:collapse when they stop overlapping.
372. # [03:11] <nessy> I'll see if I can work it out with CSS - maybe then I can see what the issue is :)
373. # [03:11] <TabAtkins> The latter, yes.
374. # [03:12] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'd like a system where you can position things all over the place then have another title in "defualt" position and have that one just slide to the first "line" where it fits
375. # [03:12] <TabAtkins> (In current draft, have a flexbox with box-orient:vertical and box-direction:alternate. In my current rewritten syntax, just have display:flex-up on the caption container.
376. # [03:12] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think either way you end up having to have dedicated code
377. # [03:12] <nessy> just one more question: with the S parameter (size) are you trying to do automatic line breaks?
378. # [03:12] * Joins: onar_ (~onar@17.151.86.128)
379. # [03:13] <Hixie> nessy: possibly. The main reason was to have a way to say where the edge was for purposes of avoiding overlaps.
380. # [03:13] <Hixie> nessy: is there a need for automatic wrapping?
381. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> Hixie: In the case that you have something manually positioned in the middle of the screen, and then overlapping text fills the entire bottom fo the screen to just below the positioned text, would a third overlapping segment then go above the manually positioned text?
382. # [03:14] <nessy> I don't think so - though I wonder what happens when you change video size, e.g. to to full-screen
383. # [03:14] * Quits: onar_ (~onar@17.151.86.128) (Client Quit)
384. # [03:14] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'd hope so, don't see where else we'd want it to go
385. # [03:14] <nessy> if you don't blow up the captions at the same ratio, they look really tiny
386. # [03:14] <Hixie> nessy: i assume captions will be sized relative to the video
387. # [03:14] <Hixie> nessy: but i'm more worried about different fonts having different needs for where to wrap
388. # [03:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: In that case we do need a new layout mode.
389. # [03:15] <nessy> so, rather than having a S parameter size given in the spec, I would say that S should be calculated by the rendering engine, right?
390. # [03:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins: right, that's what i'm doing :-)
391. # [03:15] <TabAtkins> Something with a notion of intruding abspos, and stability of positioning.
392. # [03:15] <Hixie> nessy: how do you mean?
393. # [03:16] <nessy> are the three parameters in your image H, S, A specified in the caption file or just something that your layout mode deals with?
394. # [03:16] <nessy> maybe this is where my whole confusion comes from!
395. # [03:17] <nessy> I would think H, A are in the caption file, but S is only in the layout mode
396. # [03:18] <Hixie> that's one of the things i want to try to work out. I think it's possible that we'd have all three in the track file (though all three optional for each cue of course)
397. # [03:18] <Hixie> but maybe we can get away with fewer
398. # [03:18] <Hixie> Extended SRT has H and S
399. # [03:18] <Hixie> (though expressed as X1 and X2)
400. # [03:19] * jcranmer is now known as jcranmer|away
401. # [03:19] <Hixie> if we want to be able to set a background colour whose edge doesn't move around with each cue, we'd need an S
402. # [03:19] <nessy> only in the layout mode though, I think
403. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> I wonder if just doing a left and right would be better instead.
404. # [03:20] <Hixie> so e.g. the question is, in the video from which http://junkyard.damowmow.com/425 comes, is the box the same size in each cue?
405. # [03:20] <nessy> as an author, I wouldn't really want to have to calculate for every text cue how long it is
406. # [03:20] <Hixie> if yes, we need an explicit S
407. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> Benefit is that it shares well with the "abspos" positioning scheme.
408. # [03:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: H+S and X1+X2 are equivalent
409. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yes, but one or the other may be more natural to use.
410. # [03:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: how it is written in the file is a separate issue :-)
411. # [03:21] <Hixie> i'm just trying to work out the processing model for now
412. # [03:21] <nessy> it's either a box defined for all text cues in size or it is dynamically adjusted around the size of the current text cue
413. # [03:21] <nessy> I think specifying it separately per text cue is a nightmare
414. # [03:21] <nessy> to authore
415. # [03:22] <Hixie> yes i'd expect most authors to let it be implied
416. # [03:22] <Hixie> i'd expect most authors to not set any of this
417. # [03:22] <nessy> that X1 X2 Y1 Y2 of extended SRT is not implemented anywhere is a good sign that it's not useful per text cue
418. # [03:22] <Hixie> it's only really relevant for cases like http://philip.html5.org/misc/eva-captions.jpg
419. # [03:22] <Hixie> or http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6743/vlcsnap090208083027134xq5.png
420. # [03:24] <nessy> to me as an author I would think there is top, right, bottom, left, center placement of caption cue box; then there is left, right, center, justify alignment on the text around the center of the caption cue box
421. # [03:25] <Hixie> it's more complicated than that because of having to deal with which direction the box grows in when it's multiple lines long
422. # [03:26] <nessy> then I might define a background formatting for the caption cue box for all captions and either make that adjust to the size of the caption or give it a fixed size into which all my caption cues will fit
423. # [03:28] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
424. # [03:28] <nessy> the direction in which the box grows is dependent on the charset (is it charset that I use, e.g. for Chinese characters?) and the way in which that charset works - e.g. top-to-bottom or left-to-right
425. # [03:28] <nessy> I would think
426. # [03:29] <Hixie> i don't mean the block-progression-direction, i mean where the box is anchored. Consider http://philip.html5.org/misc/eva-captions.jpg -- if the top caption were one line long, it would be at the top, but if the bottom caption were one line long, it would be at the bottom.
427. # [03:29] <Hixie> they grow in different directions
428. # [03:29] <Hixie> http://dashiva.net/misc/1271498287684.jpg shows that oo
429. # [03:29] <Hixie> too
430. # [03:30] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
431. # [03:30] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@157.22.22.45)
432. # [03:30] * Paul_Irish is now known as paul_irish
433. # [03:30] <Hixie> except there i'd expect the bottom one to grow down, or maybe even be centered, rather than grow up
434. # [03:30] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
435. # [03:31] <Hixie> you wouldn't want the author to have to worry about this for each cue, so you really want good defaults so that just throwing the caption to the top or the bottom gets the right effect
436. # [03:31] <Hixie> without having to give a dozen coordinates and alignment instructions for each cue
437. # [03:33] <nessy> I think we want the same thing
438. # [03:33] <nessy> I might just not express it very well
439. # [03:34] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
440. # [03:34] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
441. # [03:34] <nessy> on http://dashiva.net/misc/1271498287684.jpg I would think there are two boxes
442. # [03:35] <nessy> a second line in both boxes would always be rendered underneath the first line, but the box center position would move down on the top box and up on the bottom box
443. # [03:35] <Hixie> yeah
444. # [03:36] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
445. # [03:36] <nessy> and the author would only say that for the first box it is top position and left aligned, and on the second box that it is bottom positioned and center aligned
446. # [03:36] <Hixie> ideally though the author would only have to give two instructions, maybe three: for the top box: align left, position at the top; for the bottom box: position at the bottom
447. # [03:36] <Hixie> or maybe not even anything for the bottom box
448. # [03:36] <Hixie> gotta go to dinner
449. # [03:37] <Hixie> later
450. # [03:37] <nessy> will be out for lunch
451. # [03:37] <nessy> ttyl
452. # [03:37] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
453. # [03:47] * jcranmer|away is now known as jcranmer
454. # [03:50] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
455. # [03:56] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
456. # [04:01] * Quits: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
457. # [04:02] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
458. # [04:03] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@203-140-91-140.eonet.ne.jp)
459. # [04:03] * Quits: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
460. # [04:04] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.224) (Quit: weinig)
461. # [04:07] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242) (Quit: jgornick)
462. # [04:22] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-uqijuewakquwtvmd) (Quit: dave_levin)
463. # [04:28] * Joins: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
464. # [04:32] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@60-242-27-235.static.tpgi.com.au)
465. # [04:32] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
466. # [04:33] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
467. # [04:37] * Joins: Bolkonskij (~Bolkonski@unaffiliated/bolkonskij)
468. # [04:37] <Bolkonskij> hi
469. # [04:41] * Quits: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
470. # [04:48] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au)
471. # [04:57] * Joins: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
472. # [05:05] * Joins: Bolkonskij_ (~Bolkonski@host12-217-dynamic.54-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
473. # [05:06] * Quits: Bolkonskij_ (~Bolkonski@host12-217-dynamic.54-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Client Quit)
474. # [05:06] * Joins: twolfe18 (~twolfe18@c-71-61-180-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
475. # [05:08] * Quits: Bolkonskij (~Bolkonski@unaffiliated/bolkonskij) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
476. # [05:09] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-65-22.sibtele.com)
477. # [05:16] * Joins: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@nat/google/x-vjexzimhvmxnyert)
478. # [05:19] * Quits: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
479. # [05:19] * Joins: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
480. # [05:24] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
481. # [05:24] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
482. # [05:25] * Joins: cohitre (~cohitre@c-24-18-158-106.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
483. # [05:25] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
484. # [05:25] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@c-24-18-158-106.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
485. # [05:26] * Quits: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@nat/google/x-vjexzimhvmxnyert) (Remote host closed the connection)
486. # [05:32] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
487. # [05:36] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
488. # [05:36] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
489. # [05:36] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.173) (Quit: othermaciej)
490. # [05:49] * Quits: JoePeck (~jjp@2620:0:1b00:1f02:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a) (Quit: -)
491. # [05:51] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@157.22.22.45) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
492. # [06:02] * Joins: mr_danie1 (~irssi@e177153220.adsl.alicedsl.de)
493. # [06:06] * Quits: mr_daniel (~irssi@e177157130.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
494. # [06:08] * Quits: rektide (rektide@voodoowarez.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
495. # [06:11] * Quits: twolfe18 (~twolfe18@c-71-61-180-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: twolfe18)
496. # [06:14] * Joins: twolfe18 (~twolfe18@c-71-61-180-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
497. # [06:16] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au)
498. # [06:20] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@60-242-27-235.static.tpgi.com.au) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539])
499. # [06:23] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
500. # [06:24] * Joins: cpearce_ (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
501. # [06:24] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
502. # [06:24] * cpearce_ is now known as cpearce
503. # [06:26] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
504. # [06:28] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
505. # [06:29] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
506. # [06:34] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
507. # [06:37] <Hixie> a lot of the discussion in public-html-a11y about timed tracks has assumed that subtitles are mutually exclusive... why is that?
508. # [06:37] <Hixie> wouldn't that just be a UI decision?
509. # [06:38] <Hixie> foolip: you were in that discussion a lot... any idea?
510. # [06:39] <micheil> Hixie: I've been thinking about some websockets stuff, and have a bit of an idea.. wanted to run it past you if you had a moment?
511. # [06:39] <Hixie> sure
512. # [06:40] <micheil> okay, currently with websockets, they are a two way channel, however, what happens in the case where a websocket server is only interested in streaming data down to a client?
513. # [06:40] * Joins: cpearce_ (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
514. # [06:40] <micheil> would it make sense to add an extra (optional) headers which allowed you to specific (from the server) whether the connection was to be a ReadOnly connection?
515. # [06:41] <micheil> (alternatively, you may also wish to implement a writeOnly, but I can't see a use case for that)
516. # [06:41] <Hixie> you define the protocol that runs over websocket, so you could just define your protocol such that there is nothing the client is allowed to say, and the server can just ignore everything the client sends
517. # [06:41] <micheil> by default, websockets would assume that they are both Read and Write, unless this is set
518. # [06:42] <micheil> true, although, would it not be a good idea to give the client some indication of this?
519. # [06:42] <micheil> I'm thinking in a more generic sense, rather then at the subprotocol level
520. # [06:43] <micheil> this flag would have no effect on the readyState of the connection.
521. # [06:43] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
522. # [06:43] * cpearce_ is now known as cpearce
523. # [06:43] <Hixie> well it's not like the client is a random client, the client is you
524. # [06:44] <Hixie> i mean, you're not going to be talking to random pages, you're only talking to people who know what your protocol is
525. # [06:44] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
526. # [06:44] <Hixie> so they know your protocol is "read only", because that's why they're connecting to you
527. # [06:45] <micheil> not so
528. # [06:45] <micheil> the client may be a random client, in the case of a websocket server as an API server
529. # [06:46] * Quits: twolfe18 (~twolfe18@c-71-61-180-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: twolfe18)
530. # [06:48] <Hixie> then you're going to have to tell the client a heck of a lot more than just that the server doesn't want anything
531. # [06:48] <Hixie> you're going to have to tell the client the entire protocol
532. # [06:49] <micheil> hmm.. okay, fair enough
533. # [06:49] <micheil> it was just a quick idea I had
534. # [06:50] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
535. # [06:50] <Hixie> micheil: the way to think of Web Sockets is that it is the same as TCP
536. # [06:50] <Hixie> except for the web
537. # [06:50] <micheil> okay
538. # [06:50] <micheil> I'm thinking in a more service oriented thing
539. # [06:50] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
540. # [06:51] <micheil> Hixie: have you seen pusherapp.com?
541. # [06:52] <Hixie> looks like what eventsource was made for :-)
542. # [06:53] <micheil> eventsource?
543. # [06:53] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/eventsource/
544. # [06:54] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
545. # [06:55] <micheil> Hixie: there's a difference there, these are read/write
546. # [06:55] <Hixie> ah ok
547. # [06:55] <micheil> the stuff about readonly was in relation to another piece of work I'm doing
548. # [06:56] <othermaciej> good evening
549. # [06:56] <micheil> evening'
550. # [06:57] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection timed out)
551. # [07:00] * Joins: abarth (~abarth@c-98-210-108-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
552. # [07:02] <abarth> anyone know what WG at the IETF is working on URL stuff?
553. # [07:06] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
554. # [07:08] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
555. # [07:11] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
556. # [07:11] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
557. # [07:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you recall if you intended to stop processing if the insertion point becomes non-foreign in the case mentioned in the bug report http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9582 ?
558. # [07:26] <Hixie> i don't recall off hand
559. # [07:26] <Hixie> do you have some markup examples in mind?
560. # [07:27] <hsivonen> IIRC <a><svg><foreignObject><a><svg></a>
561. # [07:28] <othermaciej> abarth: IRIbis
562. # [07:28] <abarth> is that http://tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/ ?>
563. # [07:28] <othermaciej> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/
564. # [07:28] <othermaciej> yeah
565. # [07:28] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
566. # [07:29] <othermaciej> abarth: "work" may be a stronger word than is merited so far
567. # [07:29] <abarth> ic
568. # [07:29] <othermaciej> abarth: but they are indeed planning to publish an updated document that's supposed to handle real-world URL parsing
569. # [07:30] <abarth> i'm crunching all this data for the GURL/KURL thing
570. # [07:30] <abarth> maybe I'll write up a doc and send it to their mailing list
571. # [07:30] <abarth> that's probably a better forum than public-html
572. # [07:30] <abarth> it's looking pretty messy at the moment
573. # [07:30] <abarth> but maybe it will become clearer as I get further in
574. # [07:31] <othermaciej> abarth: messy in what way?
575. # [07:31] <othermaciej> abarth: quirky required behavior? lots of browser differences?
576. # [07:31] <abarth> lots of browser differences
577. # [07:32] <abarth> i'm not sure what's required
578. # [07:32] <abarth> if there's a lot of variety, that might mean there's room to remove quirks
579. # [07:32] * Joins: aboodman (~aa@nat/google/x-bbyylsuxktdfipbw)
580. # [07:32] <aboodman> abarth: you around?
581. # [07:33] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
582. # [07:33] <abarth> aboodman: yes
583. # [07:34] <aboodman> abarth: hey, i was wondering something about cors
584. # [07:34] <aboodman> doesn't it have the issue where it might leak access to intranet resources?
585. # [07:35] <othermaciej> aboodman: no (unless intranet resources are in the habit of adding Access-Control-Allow-Origin headers randomly)
586. # [07:35] <abarth> aboodman: that's one of the threats CORS tries to address
587. # [07:35] <abarth> aboodman: do you have something speific you're worried about?
588. # [07:35] <othermaciej> aboodman: in theory it *can* violate integrity (as opposed to confidentiality) of intranet resources, but only in the same ways forms already can
589. # [07:35] <aboodman> right cors, requires that existing servers respond with a special header.
590. # [07:35] <aboodman> even for GET.
591. # [07:35] <abarth> yes
592. # [07:35] <aboodman> sorry, forgot that bit.
593. # [07:37] <aboodman> ooc, if the intranet issue didn't exist, would servers still need to respond with the special header?
594. # [07:37] <abarth> depends what you mean by intranet
595. # [07:37] <aboodman> that is, would not sending credentials be sufficient.
596. # [07:37] <abarth> there's always IP-based authentication
597. # [07:37] <othermaciej> for requests without credentials, maybe not
598. # [07:37] <abarth> you can't avoid sending credentials
599. # [07:37] <abarth> for example, proxy-auth credentials
600. # [07:37] <abarth> or IP addresses
601. # [07:37] <othermaciej> "intranet" is a shorthand for a broad category
602. # [07:38] <abarth> what about the loopback interface?
603. # [07:38] <abarth> does that count as an intranet?
604. # [07:38] <othermaciej> it basically means any resource you have access to by virtue of network position
605. # [07:38] <aboodman> othermaciej: ok, that shorthand is fine.
606. # [07:38] <othermaciej> abarth: the loopback interface is not behind a firewall, is it?
607. # [07:38] <aboodman> intranet => any resource you have access to by virtue of network position
608. # [07:38] <abarth> it might or might not be. there are lots of services that bind only to 127.0.0.1
609. # [07:39] <othermaciej> abarth: well, I guess for most home users it is since they are behind a NAT firewall
610. # [07:39] <abarth> those aren't "firewalled" per-se
611. # [07:39] <abarth> but they're only accessible from the box itself
612. # [07:39] <othermaciej> aboodman: many home routers are reconfigurable via http from the local network segment
613. # [07:39] <othermaciej> aboodman: in many cases this is encoded in firmware that can't readily be upgraded
614. # [07:39] <aboodman> i guess i'm asking: are there other forms of ambient authority that the browser does not control, other than client IP address.
615. # [07:39] <othermaciej> so "if the intranet issue didn't exist" is a rather huge counter-factual
616. # [07:40] <aboodman> yeah, it was "out of curiosity"
617. # [07:40] <aboodman> not related to current debate
618. # [07:40] <othermaciej> the IP address and the routes
619. # [07:40] <othermaciej> for example, I have access to systems on net 17 right now
620. # [07:40] <othermaciej> but my IP address is not on net 17
621. # [07:40] <othermaciej> because I have a VPN tunnel
622. # [07:41] <othermaciej> random attackers cannot send packets to machines behind Apple's firewall even if they can send packets to me
623. # [07:41] <othermaciej> it's a matter of network topology, not just IP address
624. # [07:41] <aboodman> i see.
625. # [07:42] <aboodman> ok, thanks.
626. # [07:42] <abarth> aboodman: proxy-authentication is another example
627. # [07:42] <abarth> also, just having a fresh IP address can be valuable
628. # [07:42] <abarth> e.g., for sending spam
629. # [07:42] <abarth> or click fraud
630. # [07:42] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-wnqerhjnvijcbtha)
631. # [07:42] <abarth> there was a recent attack on IRC using browsers
632. # [07:43] <abarth> that used that property
633. # [07:43] <othermaciej> yum, cross-protocol attacks
634. # [07:43] <othermaciej> aboodman: the CORS vs UMP debate is really about whether it is ever ok to send user and originating site credentials in a cross-site request
635. # [07:44] <othermaciej> the ObjCap people say no, because ambient authority is bad, end of story
636. # [07:44] <othermaciej> others (e.g. me) would say, but the Web security model is already based on origins, so we may as well go with the flow in the soundest way we can instead of trying to fight it
637. # [07:44] <othermaciej> and CORS makes it easier to code many common access patterns securely, notwithstanding theory
638. # [07:45] <Hixie> imho UMP might make sense but only if you revamp the way the web works first
639. # [07:45] <aboodman> yeah, my question came up because i remembered the "intranet case" from earlier discussions abarth and i had had regarding chrome extensions.
640. # [07:45] <aboodman> and i suddenly wondered how cors could work at all.
641. # [07:45] <othermaciej> if we were designing the Web security model from scratch, then an object-capability model might be a reasonable choice
642. # [07:45] <aboodman> i had forgotten the requirement to respod with a header.
643. # [07:45] <aboodman> apologies for the dumb question.
644. # [07:45] <othermaciej> aboodman: the "intranet case" is a bane of existence for cool stuff
645. # [07:45] <abarth> there are no dumb questions on this topic
646. # [07:45] <abarth> this stuff is all very archane
647. # [07:46] <othermaciej> there are many dumb answers, though :-)
648. # [07:46] * Joins: dave_levin_ (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-hjxmvusruhyvbgku)
649. # [07:46] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-wnqerhjnvijcbtha) (Client Quit)
650. # [07:46] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
651. # [07:47] <othermaciej> security is hard
652. # [07:47] <othermaciej> the Web is hard
653. # [07:47] <wirepair> which is why i have a job ;>
654. # [07:47] <othermaciej> hardness combines nonlinearly
655. # [07:47] <aboodman> fwiw i think othermaciej's argument that keeping secrets secure is compelling too.
656. # [07:48] <aboodman> in favor of sop.
657. # [07:48] <othermaciej> which argument was that?
658. # [07:49] <aboodman> it ws from awhile ago, but you recently referred to it
659. # [07:49] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
660. # [07:49] * Quits: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
661. # [07:49] * aboodman looks
662. # [07:49] <abarth> yeah, integrity primitive are better for integrity properties
663. # [07:49] * Hixie doesn't understand why the a11y tf came up with <trackgroup>
664. # [07:50] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
665. # [07:51] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
666. # [07:52] <aboodman> "the risk of programming errors with CORS-only
667. # [07:52] <aboodman> solutions has to be weighed against the risk of programming errors in
668. # [07:52] <aboodman> shared-secret solution"
669. # [07:52] <aboodman> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009OctDec/0481.html
670. # [07:52] <aboodman> it was ojan who referred to it, not you.
671. # [07:52] <othermaciej> aboodman: oh
672. # [07:53] <othermaciej> yeah, I remember that
673. # [07:53] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yt?
674. # [07:53] <othermaciej> that's something that is often glossed over, the challenge of managing shared secrets
675. # [07:53] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
676. # [07:53] <othermaciej> especially if those shared secrets go in URLs
677. # [07:53] <Hixie> anyone know what the csswg's current state of thinking wrt multiple pseudo-elements per selector is?
678. # [07:53] <othermaciej> it's very hard to keep URLs confidential - they like to leak out into the world
679. # [07:54] * Quits: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
680. # [07:54] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc)
681. # [07:55] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
682. # [07:55] <othermaciej> aboodman, abarth: a while back I made a series of slides explaining how you could combine Origin-based defenses and shared secrets to make a protocol that was more robust than either alone
683. # [07:56] <othermaciej> but I never finished it, because it seemed pointless to continue the debate about security qualities of the protocol
684. # [07:56] <othermaciej> but maybe I could dig it out and send it somewhere
685. # [07:56] <abarth> did you take the anticipated rhetorical context into account?
686. # [07:56] <abarth> <--- i'll stop being mean now
687. # [07:57] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-125-48.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
688. # [07:57] <othermaciej> abarth: I did - that's why I never finished it :-)
689. # [07:57] <abarth> IP address canonicalization seems to break down as Safari+Firefox versus Chrome+IE
690. # [07:57] <abarth> IE likes to canonicalize whereas FF doesn't
691. # [07:58] <abarth> canonicalize('http://000030052000001/') is 'http://192.168.0.1/' IE
692. # [07:58] <abarth> canonicalize('http://000030052000001/') is 'http://192.168.0.1/' KR
693. # [07:58] <abarth> canonicalize('http://000030052000001/') should be http://192.168.0.1/. Was http://000030052000001/. FF
694. # [07:58] <abarth> canonicalize('http://000030052000001/') should be http://192.168.0.1/. Was http://000030052000001/. SA
695. # [07:58] <abarth> as a random example
696. # [07:58] <othermaciej> are there any reasons besides matching one browser or the other to caniicalize or not?
697. # [07:58] <Hixie> abarth: iirc it is considered a security-wise dubious thing to support non-dotted-quad ipv4 addresses
698. # [07:58] <Hixie> abarth: and it is certainly not kosher per the rfc iirc
699. # [07:59] <abarth> what does "support" mean?
700. # [07:59] <Hixie> convert to anything or resolve as an IP address
701. # [07:59] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
702. # [07:59] <othermaciej> so you think URLs like that should not be canonicalized, and the network layer should refuse to load from such UR:s?
703. # [07:59] <abarth> i should check whether firefox actually lets you follow those URLs
704. # [07:59] <othermaciej> er
705. # [07:59] <othermaciej> URLs
706. # [08:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: unless there's a pressing compat need or the spec says i'm wrong, yes
707. # [08:00] <Hixie> to start with, pure-numeric labels are valid dns labels
708. # [08:00] <Hixie> so you could have a local machine in dns with the name "000030052000001" if i'm not mistaken
709. # [08:01] <Hixie> (e.g. www.000.com. resolves)
710. # [08:01] <othermaciej> I thought that officially DNS labels were not supposed to start with a number
711. # [08:01] <othermaciej> but I know that is often violated
712. # [08:01] <Hixie> 000.com and 123.com are both registered
713. # [08:01] <Hixie> so...
714. # [08:05] <othermaciej> aboodman: hey, that was a good email you cited - I didn't remember writing that :-)
715. # [08:05] <aboodman> heh. happy to help.
716. # [08:05] <aboodman> this debate has been going on quite awhile.
717. # [08:05] <Hixie> the debate is pointless since no UA is implement it
718. # [08:06] <Hixie> implementing
719. # [08:06] <Hixie> it's like Web SQL DB -- except with even fewer vendors on board
720. # [08:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: except that Caja is apparently the most important UA of all
721. # [08:06] <Hixie> i don't understand why it's still even on the table
722. # [08:06] <aboodman> web sql db :(
723. # [08:06] <aboodman> rip
724. # [08:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: Why would this need specifying separately from the rest of Caja's APIs?
725. # [08:07] * Joins: pesla (~retep@188.202.125.121)
726. # [08:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: don't ask me, ask Mark Miller
727. # [08:07] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
728. # [08:07] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host)
729. # [08:07] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
730. # [08:07] <Hixie> i haven't seen him argue that it needs speccing because of caja
731. # [08:08] <othermaciej> he cited Caja as a UA that plans to implement UMP and not CORS
732. # [08:08] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
733. # [08:09] <Hixie> yeah that's all i've seen
734. # [08:09] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
735. # [08:10] <othermaciej> I would say the APIs of script libraries do not require the Web standards process to define
736. # [08:10] <Hixie> depends if they're going to be implemented once or more than once, i'd say
737. # [08:11] <Hixie> but in this case i don't mind if it has a spec or not, i just think it should be done in a manner consistent with the rest of caja's apis
738. # [08:11] <Hixie> if it's just for caja
739. # [08:13] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-339fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
740. # [08:15] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
741. # [08:15] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010AprJun/0009.html
742. # [08:16] <zcorpan> since my previous speculation about microsoft implementing xhtml when they sent feedback on document.write was correct, i'll speculate again that they're now implementing canvas
743. # [08:16] <abarth> Hixie: what about this kind of canonicalization:
744. # [08:16] <abarth> canonicalize('http://[0:0::0:0:8]/') is 'http://[::8]/'
745. # [08:18] <zcorpan> should (new WebSocket('ws://foo:80/')).URL return ws://foo/ or ws://foo:80/ ?
746. # [08:19] <abarth> i have that case
747. # [08:19] <abarth> one sec
748. # [08:19] <abarth> KR canonicalize('ws://foo:80/') is 'ws://foo/'
749. # [08:19] <abarth> FF canonicalize('ws://foo:80/') should be ws://foo/. Was ws://foo:80/.
750. # [08:19] <abarth> IE canonicalize('ws://foo:80/') should be ws://foo/. Was ws://foo:80/.
751. # [08:19] <abarth> SA canonicalize('ws://foo:80/') should be ws://foo/. Was ws://foo:80/.
752. # [08:20] <abarth> short answer is "probably"
753. # [08:20] <abarth> FF/IE/SA don't support web sockets
754. # [08:20] <abarth> but for the protocols that they do support
755. # [08:20] <abarth> KR/FF/IE remove default port numbers
756. # [08:20] <abarth> but SA doesn't
757. # [08:21] <zcorpan> so for say http://foo:80/, everyone would give http://foo/ ?
758. # [08:21] <zcorpan> except SA?
759. # [08:21] <othermaciej> aboodman: so hrome is the only browser to canonicalize away the default port?
760. # [08:22] <othermaciej> oh, ws:
761. # [08:22] <abarth> yeah
762. # [08:22] <aboodman> othermaciej: no idea.
763. # [08:22] <abarth> i'll show the http case
764. # [08:22] <abarth> which is simpler
765. # [08:22] <abarth> FF canonicalize('http://www.example.com:80/') is 'http://www.example.com/'
766. # [08:22] <abarth> KR canonicalize('http://www.example.com:80/') is 'http://www.example.com/'
767. # [08:22] <abarth> SA canonicalize('http://www.example.com:80/') should be http://www.example.com/. Was http://www.example.com:80/.
768. # [08:22] <abarth> IE canonicalize('http://www.example.com:80/') is 'http://www.example.com/'
769. # [08:22] <zcorpan> thanks!
770. # [08:22] <othermaciej> abarth: yeah, the default port thing really needs to be a whitelist of specific protocols - making it based on the protocols the browser knows seems bad for interop
771. # [08:22] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
772. # [08:22] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-pvyuddlglembxvjg) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2/20100122095031])
773. # [08:23] <abarth> othermaciej: possibly, i'm trying to reserve judgement until i see the whole picture, which I don't yet
774. # [08:24] <abarth> ok, the absolute URL dataset is done
775. # [08:24] <abarth> i'm going to relative URLs later
776. # [08:24] <zcorpan> othermaciej: if a browser doesn't know the protocol, does it matter whether it removes the port or not?
777. # [08:24] <abarth> they seem even more complicated
778. # [08:24] <abarth> (ok, i don't have file URLs done either)
779. # [08:24] <othermaciej> zcorpan: for purposes of the API on <a> elements, yes, though maybe that is minor enough to not care
780. # [08:25] <Hixie> abarth: yeah ipv6 canon seems legit
781. # [08:26] <Hixie> once you're supporting different protocols, you've already lost interop anyway
782. # [08:27] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
783. # [08:27] <abarth> FF canonicalize('http://GoOgLe.CoM/') is 'http://google.com/'
784. # [08:27] <abarth> IE canonicalize('http://GoOgLe.CoM/') is 'http://google.com/'
785. # [08:27] <abarth> KR canonicalize('http://GoOgLe.CoM/') is 'http://google.com/'
786. # [08:27] <abarth> SA canonicalize('http://GoOgLe.CoM/') should be http://google.com/. Was http://GoOgLe.CoM/.
787. # [08:28] <Hixie> ok time to go play bc2
788. # [08:28] <othermaciej> abarth: FYI I'm planning to make a variant of the file URL test I made that has an http base URL
789. # [08:28] <Hixie> bbl
790. # [08:28] <othermaciej> in fact, I think I will do that now
791. # [08:28] <abarth> great :)
792. # [08:28] <abarth> i'm putting off the file URL stuff until i understand the other cases
793. # [08:28] <othermaciej> hmmm
794. # [08:29] <abarth> it looks like Brett preferred the IE way in a lot of cases
795. # [08:29] <zcorpan> abarth: would it be possible to test opera also? :)
796. # [08:29] <othermaciej> I need to not make it a script test though to avoid getting the <base> that I put in the template pulled in
797. # [08:29] <abarth> i removed the base URL from the template
798. # [08:29] <abarth> it didn't work properly
799. # [08:29] <abarth> as in, it broke the tests on windows
800. # [08:30] <abarth> there's a utility method to set the base URL to whatever you like
801. # [08:30] <abarth> trival.js has an example
802. # [08:30] <othermaciej> abarth: that will probably mess up the file: test
803. # [08:30] <abarth> zcorpan: sure
804. # [08:30] <othermaciej> abarth: which other tests did it break on windows?
805. # [08:30] <othermaciej> does windows not have the /tmp link? was pretty sure it did, cause other tests use it
806. # [08:30] <abarth> zcorpan: i was trying to keep the data set managable to start with
807. # [08:31] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
808. # [08:31] <abarth> i don;t think the URL you used is a valid file URL on windows
809. # [08:31] <abarth> it didn't have a drive-spec
810. # [08:31] <abarth> why would it mess up the file test to set it using the API?
811. # [08:31] <abarth> it just adds a base tag like you did
812. # [08:31] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
813. # [08:32] <abarth> the difference is it does it after loading the various script tests scripts
814. # [08:32] <othermaciej> setting it using the API could work
815. # [08:32] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
816. # [08:32] <othermaciej> but if it breaks on Windows with a <base> tag, it will break with an API
817. # [08:32] <othermaciej> what I meant is that not setting the base URI at all will likely break
818. # [08:33] <abarth> its an ordering thing
819. # [08:33] <othermaciej> or not so much break as make the test results dependent on the user's system
820. # [08:33] <abarth> you need to set the base tag after loadingin the scripts
821. # [08:33] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
822. # [08:33] <abarth> because the scripts are loaded using relative URLs
823. # [08:34] <othermaciej> I see
824. # [08:34] <othermaciej> good point
825. # [08:34] <othermaciej> though it may still throw off the results in browsers that consider a file URI invalid if it has no drive letter
826. # [08:34] <othermaciej> or maybe they just consider it undereferancable, not syntactically invalid
827. # [08:34] <othermaciej> that would be ok
828. # [08:38] <othermaciej> abarth: ok, I made file-http-base.html but I am not sure the expected results I have will match google-url's behavior
829. # [08:38] <abarth> this is another interesting case
830. # [08:39] <abarth> (that's fine. the shouldBe results don't matter. we'll figure out what they should be later)
831. # [08:39] <abarth> IE canonicalize('http://example.com/foo%41%7a') is 'http://example.com/fooAz'
832. # [08:39] <abarth> KR canonicalize('http://example.com/foo%41%7a') is 'http://example.com/fooAz'
833. # [08:39] <abarth> FF canonicalize('http://example.com/foo%41%7a') should be http://example.com/fooAz. Was http://example.com/foo%41%7a.
834. # [08:39] <abarth> SA canonicalize('http://example.com/foo%41%7a') should be http://example.com/fooAz. Was http://example.com/foo%41%7a.
835. # [08:39] <abarth> the question here is whether you URL decode things that don't need to be encoded
836. # [08:39] <othermaciej> yeah
837. # [08:39] <othermaciej> Brett really likes IE's URL parsing I guess :-)
838. # [08:40] <abarth> IE likes to keep non-ASCII characters in URLs
839. # [08:41] <abarth> brett seems to follow firefox + safari in making things more ascii more of the time
840. # [08:41] <abarth> FF canonicalize('http://example.com/你好你好') is 'http://example.com/%E4%BD%A0%E5%A5%BD%E4%BD%A0%E5%A5%BD'
841. # [08:41] <abarth> KR canonicalize('http://example.com/你好你好') is 'http://example.com/%E4%BD%A0%E5%A5%BD%E4%BD%A0%E5%A5%BD'
842. # [08:41] <abarth> SA canonicalize('http://example.com/你好你好') is 'http://example.com/%E4%BD%A0%E5%A5%BD%E4%BD%A0%E5%A5%BD'
843. # [08:41] <abarth> IE canonicalize('http://example.com/你好你好') should be http://example.com/%E4%BD%A0%E5%A5%BD%E4%BD%A0%E5%A5%BD. Was http://example.com/你好你好.
844. # [08:41] <othermaciej> I guess IE doesn't like things to be escaped
845. # [08:42] <abarth> woah, firefox doesn't turn \ into / in paths
846. # [08:42] <abarth> crazy
847. # [08:42] <abarth> i'm surprised that works
848. # [08:42] <wirepair> like http://example.com/blah\something.jsp ?
849. # [08:43] <abarth> yeah
850. # [08:43] <abarth> non-FF makes that
851. # [08:43] <abarth> http://example.com/blah/something.jsp
852. # [08:43] <abarth> life is different in the query string
853. # [08:43] <wirepair> yeah it converts it to %5c
854. # [08:44] <abarth> in the query string apparently non-IE likes to keep more things encoded
855. # [08:44] <abarth> but IE is aggressive at not encoding things
856. # [08:44] <wirepair> yeah which is why it's a hotbed for xss
857. # [08:44] <wirepair> ;>
858. # [08:44] <othermaciej> abarth: did you port over the component parsing tests (other than user/pass) in addition to the canonicalization ones?
859. # [08:44] <abarth> even to the point of keeping invalid unicode characters around
860. # [08:45] <wirepair> invalid unicode == overlong utf-8 and such?
861. # [08:45] <abarth> othermaciej: i'm not 100% clear what you're asking, but i think the answer is yet
862. # [08:45] <abarth> sorry
863. # [08:45] <abarth> yes
864. # [08:45] <abarth> i'm using a.href for all of them
865. # [08:45] <othermaciej> the ones that test what you get for scheme or path when given a particular URL
866. # [08:46] <abarth> i haven't tried using the other APIs
867. # [08:46] <abarth> oh
868. # [08:46] <abarth> there are tests that give you a whole URL at then
869. # [08:46] <abarth> see what the components are?
870. # [08:46] <abarth> no, i haven't done those
871. # [08:46] <othermaciej> well, I assume there are
872. # [08:48] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
873. # [08:48] <abarth> http://code.google.com/p/google-url/source/browse/trunk/src/url_parse_unittest.cc
874. # [08:48] <abarth> no, i haven't done the ones from that file yet
875. # [08:49] <abarth> they look worthwhile too
876. # [08:49] <othermaciej> ok maybe I will do those if I have time
877. # [08:49] <othermaciej> gonna see if I can pick off a more important bug first
878. # [08:50] <abarth> 'http://www.example.com/#\ud800\u597d'
879. # [08:50] <abarth> that URL gets a different result in every browser
880. # [08:50] <abarth> i think the problem is that its invalid unicode
881. # [08:51] <abarth> 'http://www.example.com/#a\uFDD0'
882. # [08:51] <abarth> that looks like a more reduced test for that case
883. # [08:51] <othermaciej> abarth: reading that chromium-dev thread, I fear I will have to do my slideshow about CORS and Confused Deputy vulnerabilities for google folk at some point
884. # [08:51] * Joins: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
885. # [08:52] <othermaciej> I wouldn't want Chromium to be deciding on security features based on "Maciej said so"
886. # [08:52] <abarth> to some extent, they rely on my for that kind of stuff, but i'm kind of pulling the rug out from under them by try to not be involved
887. # [08:52] <othermaciej> at the very least it should be based on "Adam said so"
888. # [08:53] <abarth> well, ifette is also a good person to be involved in the decision process
889. # [08:53] <aboodman> we really only make decisions because aboodman said so, but since that list is public, we try to put on a nice show.
890. # [08:53] <abarth> hahaha :)
891. # [08:54] <aboodman> g'nite troops
892. # [08:54] <othermaciej> abarth: you should give your advice, even if you don't want to be the decider, IMO
893. # [08:54] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
894. # [08:56] <abarth> it seems like a no-win situation
895. # [08:56] <abarth> i'm not even really sure what that thread is about
896. # [08:56] <othermaciej> you're the one who started it!
897. # [08:57] <abarth> oh, on chromium-dev?
898. # [08:57] <othermaciej> yeah
899. # [08:57] <abarth> yeah, ok
900. # [08:58] <abarth> that sounds like a good email for tomorrow morning :)
901. # [09:00] <abarth> Safari encodes the second # in the fragment, which doesn't match IE/FF/KR
902. # [09:00] <abarth> that sounds like an easy fix
903. # [09:01] <abarth> also, Safari doesn't lower-case schemes, unlike IE/FF/KR
904. # [09:04] <othermaciej> abarth: I am glad you are working on this and doing it to your usual ridiculously thorough standards
905. # [09:04] <abarth> its actually not nearly as complicated as I thought it would be, at least for non-file, non-relative URLs
906. # [09:04] <abarth> there seems to be <6 decisiosn
907. # [09:05] <abarth> i need to look it over again when I'm less tired
908. # [09:05] <abarth> but i'll write it up and ask brett and others why they chose what they did
909. # [09:05] <abarth> i'm happy to do this stuff
910. # [09:05] <abarth> i think its more important than anding random feature XYZ
911. # [09:06] <abarth> but i understand that it doesn't generated good press articles :)
912. # [09:07] <abarth> anyway, me => bed
913. # [09:07] <abarth> thanks for your help writing the tests
914. # [09:08] * Quits: abarth (~abarth@c-98-210-108-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: abarth)
915. # [09:10] * Quits: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
916. # [09:15] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: Lost terminal)
917. # [09:22] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-hjxmvusruhyvbgku) (Quit: dave_levin)
918. # [09:23] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@EM114-51-35-181.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
919. # [09:29] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Hey! Listen!)
920. # [09:38] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@s55940049.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
921. # [09:41] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
922. # [09:42] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
923. # [09:51] <foolip> Hixie: mutually exclusive subtitles: this is the way virtually all software and hardware media players work. it seems useful to be able to mark up that certain tracks are mutually exclusive (<tracktrack>) so that the UI can create a sane menu.
924. # [09:52] <hsivonen> having multiple subtitle tracks present at one time seems to be on the wrong side of 80/20
925. # [09:52] <foolip> the other options are to make all tracks mutually exlcusive or all tracks "parallel", both of which are broken
926. # [09:52] <hsivonen> if you want to make English subtitles plus Japanese subtitles for language learners for anime, you can package them into one track
927. # [09:53] <foolip> hsivonen: I agree, but others (nessy) insisted, and I think the current solution is fairly non-intrusive
928. # [09:53] <hsivonen> FWIW, in movie theaters in Finland, there are subtitles in Finnish and in Swedish, but they aren't independent tracks
929. # [09:53] <hsivonen> specifically, the Swedish subtitles aren't bought from Sweden
930. # [09:53] * asmodai wonders what it is that keeps leaking memory in FF.
931. # [09:53] <nessy> hsivonen: you will not want to package two different languages in one file if you can avoid it
932. # [09:53] <foolip> the most compelling argument (to me) is that if <track> is also used for e.g. extra audio tracks, clearly subtitles and the extra audio track aren't mutually exclusive
933. # [09:54] <hsivonen> nessy: I think you do
934. # [09:54] <nessy> then you cannot turn one off
935. # [09:54] <foolip> hi nessy
936. # [09:54] <hsivonen> nessy: for the same reason Swedish subtitles in Finnish movie theaters aren't independent of the Finnish subtitles
937. # [09:54] <hsivonen> nessy: the traslator to Finnish chooses the timing
938. # [09:54] <nessy> hi foolip :)
939. # [09:55] <hsivonen> and then the translator to Swedish uses that timing
940. # [09:55] <hsivonen> so the Finnish and Swedish subtitles always change at the same time
941. # [09:55] <hsivonen> because having them change at different times would be annoying
942. # [09:55] <nessy> so you cannot reuse the subtitles in Finnish or Swedish separately?
943. # [09:56] <hsivonen> nessy: but the Web is different from movie theaters in the sense that the Web experience is personal
944. # [09:56] <nessy> I think you can very well create them in different files but synchronised
945. # [09:56] <nessy> do you know whether in the production process they are actually in the same file and not just rendered on together?
946. # [09:56] <foolip> I'd say that if parallel tracks don't impose too much complexity (in API, markup, code or UI) then it's a good feature
947. # [09:56] <hsivonen> nessy: what's the use case on the Web except language learning?
948. # [09:56] <hsivonen> IMO, language learning is way on the wrong side of 80/20
949. # [09:56] * Parts: davidhund (~davidhund@s55940049.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
950. # [09:56] <hsivonen> esp. since there's a workaround
951. # [09:57] <foolip> current downside: it makes <trackgroup> mandatory boilerplate in most cases
952. # [09:57] <hsivonen> multiple tracks means you need to stack them in layout...
953. # [09:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: use case: watching a movie with a friend who doesn't know swedish
954. # [09:57] <nessy> chapter markers and subtitles and textual audio descriptions on together would be one need for multiple tracks active at the same time
955. # [09:58] <nessy> plus you saw the examples that Hixie cumulated together with multiple subtitles on at the same time
956. # [09:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I suppose the Web experience can become unpersonal once movie rentals and TV move to the browser
957. # [09:59] <hsivonen> nessy: the examples I saw suggested they were for learning Japanese
958. # [09:59] <nessy> I am not a big fan of having tracks of the same type on at the same time, but we definitely need it for different types
959. # [09:59] <hsivonen> are there new examples?
960. # [09:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah, i'd expect Voddler-like apps to appear as web apps
961. # [09:59] <othermaciej> if <track> was used for audio descriptions as well as subtitles, then you would want those to come from a separate mutually exclusive list
962. # [09:59] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
963. # [09:59] <foolip> indeed
964. # [09:59] * hsivonen notes that Finnish TV broadcasts don't support Finnish and Swedish subtitles simultaneously
965. # [09:59] <nessy> that was my original design
966. # [10:00] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: Lost terminal)
967. # [10:00] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@EM114-51-35-181.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
968. # [10:00] * zcorpan doesn't know if Voddler supports multiple subtitles or indeed subtitles at all
969. # [10:00] <nessy> shot down by reality I was told :)
970. # [10:01] * nessy goes checking out voddler
971. # [10:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it would be an interesting market enabler if the Swedish audience had so good English listening comprehension that they could optimize subtitles away
972. # [10:01] <nessy> bah, not available in my country
973. # [10:02] <foolip> lol, region coded internets suck
974. # [10:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: personally i prefer english captions but most other people i know prefer swedish subtitles
975. # [10:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: why English captions?
976. # [10:03] <foolip> I have the same preference as zcorpan, especially if the spoken language is English
977. # [10:03] <hsivonen> interesting
978. # [10:03] <foolip> and usually otherwise too, because the translation tends to be better
979. # [10:04] <hsivonen> If the spoken language is English and I'm watching a movie alone, I turn subtitles off
980. # [10:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it's easier to follow what they say compared to no captions, and it's easier to mentally listen and read in english compared to listen in english and read in swedish
981. # [10:04] <hsivonen> if I'm watching with other people, they want the Finnish subtitles anyway
982. # [10:05] <hsivonen> or the other people opt to have no subtitles, too
983. # [10:06] * hsivonen wonders what's the current situation with the Voddler GPL violation story is
984. # [10:07] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voddler#Source_Code_Copyright_Violation_by_Voddler wikipedia to rescue
985. # [10:09] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@65.100.130.168)
986. # [10:15] <asmodai> Any suggestions for testing memory leaks in FF? Or should I just use binary search on the addons/plugins?
987. # [10:19] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
988. # [10:21] <hsivonen> asmodai: have you already verified that the leak isn't present when all addons and plug-ins are disabled?
989. # [10:34] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk)
990. # [10:34] <Hixie> foolip: why wouldn't the UI just let you pick one subtitle or caption track, and leave it at that?
991. # [10:34] <Hixie> foolip: while still letting the JS enable/disable whatever it wants?
992. # [10:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: supporting multiple tracks visible at once is basically free once you support multiple cues not overlapping
993. # [10:35] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
994. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: even in terms of layout stacking?
995. # [10:37] <Dashiva> One thing I didn't see in the timed tracks examples was vertical text
996. # [10:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: that's what i mean, once you have cues not stacking each other, making subtitles not stack each other is basically free
997. # [10:38] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.240.179)
998. # [10:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: is there anything else that would be non-trivial?
999. # [10:38] <Hixie> Dashiva: one of the first examples has some vertical text
1000. # [10:39] <Dashiva> Oh, must've missed it
1001. # [10:39] <Dashiva> Wait, that isn't vertical text
1002. # [10:39] <Dashiva> That's rotated text
1003. # [10:39] <Dashiva> It's flipped 90 degrees
1004. # [10:39] <Hixie> oh, so it is
1005. # [10:40] <Hixie> i hadn't even noticed
1006. # [10:40] <Hixie> anyway i'm treating it as vertical
1007. # [10:40] <Hixie> for the purposes of this exercise
1008. # [10:40] <Hixie> :-)
1009. # [10:40] <Dashiva> kk
1010. # [10:40] <Hixie> and not supporting rotated text :-P
1011. # [10:40] <Dashiva> I think we can live without rotated text
1012. # [10:40] <Hixie> which isn't really a particularly good use of the evidence :-P
1013. # [10:40] <Hixie> if you have any other examples, please do put them up
1014. # [10:40] <Hixie> vertical ones in particular
1015. # [10:41] <Hixie> otherwise i will basically just have to go on my rather faulty knowledge of vertical text layout
1016. # [10:42] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
1017. # [10:42] <Hixie> i gotta say, the thing that most surprises me in all my standards work is how hard it is to get people to provide use case examples
1018. # [10:42] <Dashiva> Here's one where the subtitles bounce in tune with the music... let's ignore that
1019. # [10:43] <Hixie> from people not understanding what that means, to not understanding why we would want to even look at real-world examples rather than just base it on theory, to not believing that use case examples actually affect design...
1020. # [10:44] <Hixie> many people have expressed the belief that when i ask them for use cases i'm just trying to dismiss them and that they are the only people from whom i ask for use cases
1021. # [10:44] <Hixie> it's so crazy
1022. # [10:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think I'm not sure if I understood what it means to support multiple cues not overlapping
1023. # [10:44] <foolip> Hixie: I don't think a content manu UI for enabling multiple tracks would be very nice, so from a laziness point of view I could live with letting the native UI only enable one track, implicitly disabling all other.
1024. # [10:45] <foolip> context menu
1025. # [10:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG9KluukpJI#t=2m40
1026. # [10:45] <Hixie> foolip: yeah i wouldn't want the native menu to enable multiple tracks
1027. # [10:45] <foolip> if <track> is only for text I could accept this
1028. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: looks like a totally gratuitous "just because we can" effect that in *waaayy* on the wrong side of 80/20
1029. # [10:46] * Joins: Creap (~jacob@jacobrask.net)
1030. # [10:46] <foolip> if we take <track> for e.g. commentators tracks seriously, then it's not so good
1031. # [10:46] <foolip> I don't feel strongly about this issue either way
1032. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you assuming the reuse of the line layout code of the CSS formatter?
1033. # [10:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: multiple cues with overlapping times are not that rare
1034. # [10:46] <foolip> nessy: thoughts?
1035. # [10:47] * nessy is reading email - have wasted a day in town today :(
1036. # [10:47] <Hixie> foolip: i think if we ever do multiple media resources in sync, the way to do it is to reuse <video>/<audio> and have them linked at that level
1037. # [10:47] <Hixie> foolip: i don't think we'd use <track> for that
1038. # [10:47] <foolip> Hixie: I would agree that that's cleaner
1039. # [10:47] <Dashiva> http://dashiva.net/misc/vertical_karaoke.jpg
1040. # [10:48] * hsivonen didn't know YouTube supported times in the fragment id
1041. # [10:48] <Hixie> hsivonen: if you mean inline box and line box layout, then yes, at least in UAs that want to do CSS-based styling of cues
1042. # [10:48] <foolip> <track> is still not a great name for an element though (the only upside is that I first suggested it)
1043. # [10:48] <Hixie> foolip: what's a better name?
1044. # [10:48] <Hixie> Dashiva: sweet lord man
1045. # [10:48] <foolip> I have no better name, I suggested the best I could think of :)
1046. # [10:49] <Creap> probably the wrong channel to ask in.. but you know how to read specs :P ARIA spec says default value of aria-haspopup is false, does that mean that <li aria-haspopup> is the same as <li aria-haspopup="false">?
1047. # [10:49] <Hixie> <track> it is :-P
1048. # [10:49] <foolip> others have been <itext> and something else
1049. # [10:49] <Dashiva> This is the full madness karaoke form, with animated fade in and fade out of characters
1050. # [10:49] <Hixie> Dashiva: addressing the actual "current" span is something i haven't worked out how to do
1051. # [10:50] <Hixie> Dashiva: and positioning the subtitles that precisiely is non-trivial
1052. # [10:50] <Hixie> well it's very trivial if we do it pixel-based, but that's not an especially good idea for various reasons
1053. # [10:50] <Hixie> Dashiva: other than that i think we can do that
1054. # [10:50] <Dashiva> Well, most of this probably falls on the wrong side of 80/20, so it's no big crisis
1055. # [10:51] <Hixie> Dashiva: assuming we go down the kind of route i'm thinking of
1056. # [10:51] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gatea.thls.bbc.co.uk)
1057. # [10:51] <Hixie> Dashiva: yeah
1058. # [10:51] <Dashiva> http://dashiva.net/misc/bouncing_karaoke.jpg
1059. # [10:51] <foolip> it would be quite acceptible to leve the most crazy styling/animations to JavaScript
1060. # [10:51] <Hixie> i really need to figure out positioning, that's the main thing i'm spinning on
1061. # [10:53] <nessy> re: multiple cues with overlapping times - that is actually really common on captions that position the spoken text close to the speaker - they leave the old text at the other speaker around for a bit so ppl can catch up on it
1062. # [10:53] <nessy> it's a really useful feature and doesn't cost us much, I think
1063. # [10:53] <Hixie> would be good to find some examples of that on youtube or something so i could study them "in action" as it were
1064. # [10:53] <Dashiva> Not to mention when multiple people speaking simultaneously
1065. # [10:54] <Hixie> right now i just have that one example
1066. # [10:54] <Hixie> right, i'm off
1067. # [10:54] <Hixie> later
1068. # [10:55] <Dashiva> http://dashiva.net/misc/multiple_speakers.jpg
1069. # [10:55] * hsivonen wonders if the people tagging http://labs.opera.com/news/2010/04/22/ as "iphone" on Delicious know the difference between Opera Mini and Opera Mobile
1070. # [10:56] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
1071. # [10:56] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
1072. # [10:56] <Dashiva> Um, already examples for that, so no need I guess
1073. # [10:58] <foolip> SRT files often have overlapping times by mistake, because most (all?) player fix it during parsing
1074. # [10:58] <nessy> also about having multiple media resources in sync: I think you need both - (1) the dependent ones like audio descriptions whose timeline is totally dependent on the main timeline - they would go into <track> - (2) the compositions of multiple media resources that may build a multimedia experience of sorts - they would be linked on the full <audio>/<video> level
1075. # [10:59] <nessy> foolip: players don't "fix" it - they just remove the old element when the new one appears
1076. # [10:59] <foolip> nessy: internally syncing them is the same think regardless of the syntax, so I think it's mostly a question of picking a syntax which makes sense
1077. # [10:59] <nessy> with srt that's the only thing you can do because they would be rendered in the same place
1078. # [11:00] <asmodai> hsivonen: Was going to try that now.
1079. # [11:00] <foolip> nessy: in any event the overlapping is concealed, so SRT files have overlap which wasn't intended as such by the author
1080. # [11:01] <nessy> the internal mechanism is only the same for some of it - e.g. if a dependent media resource is longer its overlength will never be played - if a synchronised media resource is longer, it will continue playing
1081. # [11:02] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1082. # [11:08] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
1083. # [11:08] <asmodai> hsivonen: seems to grow with all addons and plugins disabled as well. But lets see, 336 MB now. Will see what it uses after a few minutes of not touching.
1084. # [11:09] <foolip> nessy: true
1085. # [11:14] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
1086. # [11:15] * Parts: Creap (~jacob@jacobrask.net)
1087. # [11:17] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection timed out)
1088. # [11:17] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
1089. # [11:18] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1090. # [11:18] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
1091. # [11:19] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-72-201-61.dsl.telstraclear.net)
1092. # [11:21] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: dave_levin)
1093. # [11:24] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
1094. # [11:25] <asmodai> hsivonen: doing nothing, now 466 MB and growing
1095. # [11:26] <hsivonen> asmodai: I suggest filing a bug
1096. # [11:31] * cpearce is now known as cpearce_zzz
1097. # [11:31] <asmodai> hsivonen: Yeah, just have my developer instincts taking over trying to nail it down. Managed to with the XHTML Ruby addon. :)
1098. # [11:31] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1099. # [11:38] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
1100. # [11:39] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1101. # [11:40] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
1102. # [11:44] * Quits: JusticeFries (~justicefr@65.100.130.168) (Quit: JusticeFries)
1103. # [11:46] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
1104. # [11:50] * Joins: ROBOd2 (~robod@109.96.223.75)
1105. # [11:54] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.240.179) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1106. # [12:09] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
1107. # [12:17] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@203-140-91-140.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1108. # [12:18] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
1109. # [12:19] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@65.100.130.168)
1110. # [12:24] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
1111. # [12:24] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1112. # [12:25] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
1113. # [12:28] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1114. # [12:36] * Quits: gsnedders (~gsnedders@204.232.194.186) (Quit: leaving)
1115. # [12:37] * Quits: ROBOd2 (~robod@109.96.223.75) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
1116. # [12:42] * Joins: gsnedders (~gsnedders@204.232.194.186)
1117. # [12:43] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@24.148.174.112)
1118. # [12:48] <Dashiva> And people still misunderstand the problem with hidden metadata...
1119. # [12:56] <Lachy> Dashiva, it just seems that some people are incapable of understanding when it's appropriate for specific metadata to be hidden, and when it's more optimal for the metadata to be based on visible content.
1120. # [12:57] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.104.238) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1121. # [13:00] <Dashiva> And the discussion about <p /> vs <p></p> seems to ignore the fact that empty <p> is non-conforming...
1122. # [13:01] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
1123. # [13:04] * Quits: JusticeFries (~justicefr@65.100.130.168) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1124. # [13:07] * Joins: remysharp (~remysharp@cpc2-brig17-2-0-cust448.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
1125. # [13:09] <remysharp> Re: canvas 2d api - toDataURL and the second optional argument, compression level - between 0.0 and 1. Is 1 highest compression or 1 being biggest sized file?
1126. # [13:11] <gsnedders> It's only supported for image/jpeg
1127. # [13:11] <gsnedders> And 1 is the highest quality, and hence biggest file
1128. # [13:11] <Philip`> "The second argument, if it is a number in the range 0.0 to 1.0 inclusive, must be treated as the desired quality level."
1129. # [13:11] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@65.100.130.168)
1130. # [13:11] <Philip`> I interpret 'quality level' as being exactly opposite to 'compression level'
1131. # [13:12] <Philip`> and that's how it's implemented - see http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/toDataURL.jpeg.quality.basic.html
1132. # [13:12] <Philip`> Uh, s/that's/what gsnedders said is/
1133. # [13:13] <Dashiva> It's a somewhat silly parameter, most users will have no idea what to put there
1134. # [13:13] <Philip`> Most users won't put anything there
1135. # [13:13] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1136. # [13:13] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
1137. # [13:13] <Philip`> Surely most web developers have used a paint program that exports JPEG and has a quality slider, though?
1138. # [13:14] <Dashiva> Sure, but those programs don't explain the slider any better
1139. # [13:14] <Philip`> so they'll know that e.g. 70% (0.7) is typically okay
1140. # [13:14] <Philip`> Those programs dynamically display the result of the chosen compression quality
1141. # [13:14] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
1142. # [13:14] * Quits: danbri_ (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Excess Flood)
1143. # [13:14] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: Leaving...)
1144. # [13:14] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
1145. # [13:15] <Dashiva> That sounds like a small subset of paint programs
1146. # [13:15] <jgraham> I guess photoshop does
1147. # [13:15] <Philip`> It's all the one I've used
1148. # [13:15] <Philip`> *ones
1149. # [13:15] <jgraham> The GIMP does
1150. # [13:15] <jgraham> s/guess/am pretty sure that/
1151. # [13:16] <Philip`> Paint Shop Pro does, since many years ago when I last used it
1152. # [13:16] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
1153. # [13:16] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Excess Flood)
1154. # [13:16] <jgraham> I think lightroom doesn't but I haven't looked that hard because I know the defaults are fine
1155. # [13:17] * Philip` wonders why Opera thinks quality 0.0 should give a larger file than quality 0.1
1156. # [13:17] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
1157. # [13:17] <jgraham> Philip`: Does it give the same as quality 1.0?
1158. # [13:18] <jgraham> or no quality parameter, I guess
1159. # [13:18] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Client Quit)
1160. # [13:18] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
1161. # [13:18] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Excess Flood)
1162. # [13:18] <remysharp> out of interest, does the quality actually affect the size of the base64 data. I'm assuming it does, but I don't know much about the encoding techniques
1163. # [13:19] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
1164. # [13:20] <Philip`> jgraham: No
1165. # [13:20] <Philip`> See e.g. http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/toDataURL.jpeg.quality.outsiderange.html and modify the last test
1166. # [13:21] <Philip`> (assuming the behaviour hasn't changed since the Opera I'm using)
1167. # [13:21] <Philip`> (which looks like 10.10)
1168. # [13:22] <Philip`> remysharp: Yes - base64 just does 4 bytes of output for each 3 bytes of input
1169. # [13:22] <Philip`> so if the input changes by 3 or more bytes then the output will definitely change length
1170. # [13:22] <remysharp> okay, cheers.
1171. # [13:23] <remysharp> ta for that all :)
1172. # [13:23] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
1173. # [13:26] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Client Quit)
1174. # [13:27] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-201-61.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
1175. # [13:27] * riven` is now known as riven
1176. # [13:29] * Quits: ghe (~ghe@ft173051.dep.no) (Disconnected by services)
1177. # [13:35] * Quits: remysharp (~remysharp@cpc2-brig17-2-0-cust448.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
1178. # [13:35] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
1179. # [13:37] * Quits: beilabs (~beilabs@ppp121-44-21-223.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net) (Quit: Leaving)
1180. # [13:38] * Quits: JusticeFries (~justicefr@65.100.130.168) (Quit: JusticeFries)
1181. # [13:38] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Client Quit)
1182. # [13:51] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
1183. # [14:08] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-65-22.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
1184. # [14:10] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
1185. # [14:13] * Quits: Phae (~phaeness@gatea.thls.bbc.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1186. # [14:17] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au)
1187. # [14:18] * Joins: remysharp (~remysharp@delice.gotadsl.co.uk)
1188. # [14:18] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
1189. # [14:24] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
1190. # [14:40] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
1191. # [14:42] * Dashiva wonders what kind of nut they had to use to fit perl in a nutshell. Coconuts?
1192. # [14:44] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
1193. # [14:45] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
1194. # [14:50] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
1195. # [14:53] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: ?Q)
1196. # [14:55] <remysharp> in need of canvas sanity check if someone is willing?
1197. # [14:56] <remysharp> I've got this simple example - and logging to the console (firebug, whatever) the length of pixel data - but I'm getting undefined: http://introducinghtml5.com/examples/ch05/getimagedata.html
1198. # [14:56] <remysharp> :-\
1199. # [14:56] <Philip`> remysharp: You want pixels.data.length
1200. # [14:56] <remysharp> I've been looking at this too much and now just confused myself, because I had this kind of simple example working before - any help would be greatly appreciated!
1201. # [14:56] <Philip`> not pixels.length
1202. # [14:56] <remysharp> Philip` thank you!
1203. # [14:56] <remysharp> see - me => going mad
1204. # [14:57] <remysharp> out of interest, when I run this offline - i.e. using file:/// I get a security error in firefox and chrome - should that be happening?
1205. # [14:58] <asmodai> So has this EU cookie issue been discussed in the whatwg yet?
1206. # [14:58] <remysharp> I know if I'm going across origins then it'll throw a security error, but I thought whilst offline the security model was different
1207. # [14:58] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.137.188)
1208. # [14:58] <remysharp> i.e. loose
1209. # [15:01] <Philip`> remysharp: With file:/// the security model is tighter in lots of ways
1210. # [15:01] <Philip`> so that you can't trick a user into downloading an HTML file to their desktop when then steals all their private data
1211. # [15:01] <remysharp> that makes sense
1212. # [15:01] * Joins: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk)
1213. # [15:02] <Philip`> s/when/which/
1214. # [15:02] <remysharp> I'm sure I had an example that was drawing images in to a canvas from a live domain (where my file was offline) but it was still able to call getImageData
1215. # [15:02] <remysharp> so I could do image manipulation offline
1216. # [15:02] <remysharp> in fact I've got a screencast of the demo - but it doesn't seem to work now - not sure if it's me, or if browsers have been updated in the last 4 monts
1217. # [15:02] <remysharp> *months
1218. # [15:03] <remysharp> perhaps they fixed it flagging as a security bug as you've suggested.
1219. # [15:04] * Joins: akahn (~akahn@remote.freepress.net)
1220. # [15:06] <Philip`> remysharp: Accessing files from an http: location that's not the same origin as your script, and accessing ones from file: while you script is also on file:, sound like quite different security risks
1221. # [15:06] <Philip`> but they both sound like things that shouldn't be permitted
1222. # [15:07] * Philip` has no idea what browsers' file: security models are like
1223. # [15:07] <remysharp> indeed - you're right, they don't sound like they're possible. Good chance I just caught it whilst they were figuring out the model.
1224. # [15:07] <remysharp> cheers for letting me bounce ideas.
1225. # [15:10] <akahn> Philip`: there was just a webkit issue about this recently
1226. # [15:10] <akahn> let me see if i can find it
1227. # [15:11] <akahn> my mistake, a chromium issue: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=37586
1228. # [15:16] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au)
1229. # [15:16] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Remote host closed the connection)
1230. # [15:21] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1231. # [15:23] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.137.188) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
1232. # [15:35] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
1233. # [15:47] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
1234. # [15:49] <zcorpan> hmm, http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/22/evil-witch-from-snow.html results in a page with nothing but an ad in opera and firefox with html5.enable, and nothing but the ad twice without html5.enable
1235. # [15:50] * remysharp is now known as remysharp-away
1236. # [15:50] <zcorpan> with html5.enable it never stops loading
1237. # [15:50] <zcorpan> chrome loads as was intended
1238. # [15:54] <doublec> loads fine in firefox trunk
1239. # [15:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: how up-to-date is your build?
1240. # [15:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: wfm regardless of the pref in a build I made this week with some local patches
1241. # [16:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: also wfm regardless of whether I have "Firefox" or "Minefield" in the UA string
1242. # [16:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: broken in Opera for me, too
1243. # [16:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.3a5pre) Gecko/20100417 Minefield/3.7a5pre
1244. # [16:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: wfm with that UA string, too
1245. # [16:03] <Dashiva> View source doesn't work, DOM only has a single ifram element
1246. # [16:03] <Dashiva> *iframe
1247. # [16:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: with Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.3a5pre) Gecko/20100423 Minefield/3.7a5pre i get two ads with html5.enable also
1248. # [16:03] <Lachy> zcorpan, works in Opera 10.10 for me. Fails in 10.50.
1249. # [16:04] <Lachy> zcorpan, check it in core, see where it regressed. I hope it's not a carakan bug
1250. # [16:06] <gsnedders> Lachy: Just because you were Carakan QA? :P
1251. # [16:06] <gsnedders> It's empty in 10.10 for me, having got zero bytes from the server
1252. # [16:08] <hsivonen> WFM in an actual Mac build, too
1253. # [16:09] * Quits: gsnedders (~gsnedders@204.232.194.186) (Quit: leaving)
1254. # [16:09] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
1255. # [16:09] * Joins: gsnedders (~gsnedders@204.232.194.186)
1256. # [16:10] <hsivonen> this polyglot spec isn't starting well
1257. # [16:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: In what way?
1258. # [16:11] * jgraham isn't really following
1259. # [16:11] <Lachy> I don't get the point of the polyglot spec. It seems like it's just an authoring guide, and mine already covers much of that info
1260. # [16:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: in the way that it seems to repeat at least one superstition and in the way that bug reports about it have themselves been buggy
1261. # [16:11] <Lachy> anyway, I hope to find some time to get back to working on the authoring guide soon. It's been kind of left stagnant for far too long
1262. # [16:12] <hsivonen> s/bug reports/feedback on teh list/
1263. # [16:13] <jgraham> Polyglotness is so hard that even experts get it wrong? Who knew?
1264. # [16:13] <hsivonen> also, I can find terminology errors in Leif's and Lachy's emails in that thread
1265. # [16:14] <Lachy> my e-mails in which thread?
1266. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: "then you should include the BOM indicating UTF-16LE"
1267. # [16:15] <hsivonen> UTF-16LE is BOMless
1268. # [16:15] <hsivonen> the BOM indicates little-endian UTF-16
1269. # [16:15] <gsnedders> A leading U+FEFF is a ZWNBSP
1270. # [16:15] <gsnedders> (in UTF-16LE, UTF-16BE, UTF-32LE, UTF-32BE, etc.)
1271. # [16:15] <hsivonen> right
1272. # [16:16] <gsnedders> (it only isn't in UTF-8 because the spec specifically allows it, but assigns no meaning to it)
1273. # [16:16] <Lachy> I was using that as shorthand for indicating little-endian or big-endian, as indiciated by the BOM
1274. # [16:16] <jgraham> On the other hand Sam had just claimed that serving HTML as UTF-16 was non-conformant
1275. # [16:16] <hsivonen> Lachy: I know. I'm nitpicking
1276. # [16:16] <jgraham> And he's chair of the freaking working group
1277. # [16:16] <gsnedders> I didn't think he did that
1278. # [16:17] <gsnedders> I took it to mean that HTML processors aren't required to support UTF-16, unlike XML
1279. # [16:17] <Dashiva> I wouldn't mind if UTF-16 was non-conforming :)
1280. # [16:17] <jgraham> "UTF-16 is not valid for HTML5"
1281. # [16:17] <jgraham> I don't really know how to interpret that other than "not valid"
1282. # [16:18] <jgraham> If he meant "not required to be supported" then he should have said so
1283. # [16:18] <gsnedders> Try not literally interpreting anything. It might help with communication.
1284. # [16:18] <Lachy> Dashiva, there's nothing inherently wrong with UTF-16. But it's more useful if your document contains a significant proportion of characters that would be represented as 3 or 4 octets in UTF-8, compared with just 2 in UTF-16
1285. # [16:19] <jgraham> Although the fact that UTF-16 is not required is basically a cop-out by the spec
1286. # [16:19] * Joins: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
1287. # [16:19] <jgraham> Lachy: That's much less common than you would think
1288. # [16:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: Communication works better when you ignore what somebody actually said and pretend they said something totally different?
1289. # [16:19] <Dashiva> Lachy: Is it really? Even after applying gzip compression and such? And how many documents are affected?
1290. # [16:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: Totally.
1291. # [16:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'm glad you agree it's a bad idea
1292. # [16:20] <zcorpan> jgraham: maybe sam meant that UTF-16 isn't valid in <meta charset>
1293. # [16:20] * jgraham remembers some study that looked at Japanese wikipedia and concluded that UTF-8 vs UTF-16 didn't make much difference
1294. # [16:20] <Dashiva> It comes with downsides too, such as not being ascii-compatible, having both BE and LE variants + BOM variants of each, and trouble with surrogates (if it's not actually UCS2 in disguise, that is)
1295. # [16:21] <Philip`> Lachy: HTML documents are largely markup and URLs, which is all ASCII, so you need an extremely high density of raw text to make up for it
1296. # [16:21] <Philip`> (Also they're a lot of whitespace indentation and word-spacing, which is also ASCII)
1297. # [16:22] <jgraham> zcorpan: Possibly. Who knows? It wasn't what he said though.
1298. # [16:23] <Lachy> jgraham, I expect it would be more common with asian language documents that contain a large amount of text, with comparitively little markup.
1299. # [16:23] <Lachy> I know that may not be common overall
1300. # [16:24] <jgraham> Lachy: It might make sense for the Japanese equivalent of Moby Dick on project Gutenberg
1301. # [16:24] <jgraham> It is something of an edge case on the web though
1302. # [16:25] <Philip`> I thought Project Gutenberg was text/plain
1303. # [16:25] * Quits: TabAtkins__ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1304. # [16:25] <jgraham> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2701/2701-h/2701-h.htm
1305. # [16:25] <jgraham> Not necessarily
1306. # [16:26] <Dashiva> Well, plain text would be even better fodder for compression, wouldn't it?
1307. # [16:27] <Philip`> Yes, but that's irrelevant to what is allowed in HTML
1308. # [16:29] <Lachy> has anyone seen any stats on how common UTF-16 usage is on the web?
1309. # [16:29] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
1310. # [16:30] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
1311. # [16:30] <Lachy> http://trends.builtwith.com/encoding/UTF-16-UCS-2
1312. # [16:31] <Lachy> not sure how representative that is of the web in general. I suspect it was biased by a significant number of western lanagues, which are predominately the latin alphabet.
1313. # [16:32] <Lachy> would probably be more interesting to limit the sample to langauges where using UTF-16 is potentially useful
1314. # [16:35] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.139.147)
1315. # [16:36] <Philip`> Lachy: http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html#charset-utf-16 are the only ones I saw in a sample that's largely Western but still has thousands of .jp/.cn/etc pages
1316. # [16:39] <Lachy> ok, so it's usage is negligable.
1317. # [16:41] <jgraham> Hmm. I just tried comparing the UTF-8 and UTF-16 encoded size of some japanese wikipedia articles and it seemed that utf-8 was smaller overall, but I suspect I did something wrong
1318. # [16:42] <Dashiva> Wikipedia has massive amounts of hidden markup, to be fair
1319. # [16:42] <jgraham> Is that atypical?
1320. # [16:43] <Dashiva> I would think so
1321. # [16:43] <Dashiva> Huge amounts of links, all of which are percent-encoded. Quite large head with inline <script> and such.
1322. # [16:47] <jgraham> http://event.rakuten.co.jp/borderless/index.html seems similar
1323. # [16:47] <Lachy> I got the same result with the jp Main_Page equivalent, and some other random article
1324. # [16:47] <Lachy> I then gzipped the results, and the UTF-8 still ended up smaller
1325. # [16:47] <jgraham> (in that case utf8 seems close to euc-jp which is the encoding the site uses)
1326. # [16:48] <Lachy> oh, I assumed the file I got from wikipedia was UTF-8.
1327. # [16:49] <Dashiva> Isn't it?
1328. # [16:49] <Dashiva> That's what I get, at least
1329. # [16:49] <Lachy> indeed, it is UTF-8. I don't know where you found a page using euc-jp
1330. # [16:50] <Dashiva> jgraham's link is euc-jp
1331. # [16:50] <Lachy> ah, I see. jgraham wasn't talking about wikipedia being euc-jp
1332. # [16:56] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
1333. # [17:01] <hsivonen> the claim that UTF-16 is more compact for Japanese Web pages is a myth
1334. # [17:02] <hsivonen> real Web pages have markup, inline scripts, whitespace, inline style, etc.
1335. # [17:03] <hsivonen> jgraham: a couple of years ago, I measured wikipedia pages re-encoded in various ways
1336. # [17:03] <hsivonen> summary: gzipped UTF-8 is so good that everything else is pointless
1337. # [17:04] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
1338. # [17:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: That would agree with my 5-minute "study"
1339. # [17:06] <jgraham> Did you compare with euc-js and similar?
1340. # [17:06] <jgraham> Did you write it up?
1341. # [17:07] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
1342. # [17:09] * Quits: scherkus (~scherkus@74.125.59.65) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1343. # [17:12] * Joins: sebmarkbage (~miranda@213.80.108.29)
1344. # [17:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Jan/0048.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Jan/0076.html
1345. # [17:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think it would be great to blog any numbers that you have left over from that study
1346. # [17:23] <Dashiva> Perhaps if we talk about it enough, Philip` will make a service that takes a URL and outputs how big the page would be with different encodings and transfer options
1347. # [17:24] <Philip`> Surely you can do that with a single line of shell code
1348. # [17:24] <Philip`> using curl and iconv and gzip and wc and some loops
1349. # [17:28] * Joins: rektide (rektide@voodoowarez.com)
1350. # [17:30] * Quits: remysharp-away (~remysharp@delice.gotadsl.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving...)
1351. # [17:30] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1352. # [17:30] <Dashiva> Philip`: Pretend this line is reverse psychology tricking you into making it to prove it's really possible in one line
1353. # [17:33] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1354. # [17:39] <Philip`> wget http://www.gutenberg.org/files/31757/31757-h/31757-h.htm; perl -e'for$c(qw(utf-8 utf-16be utf-16le utf-32 euc-jp shift-jis)){for$g(" ","|gzip -c"){print "$c$g ".`iconv -c 31757-h.htm -f utf-8 -t $c$g|wc -c`}}'
1355. # [17:40] * Joins: twolfe18 (~twolfe18@c-71-61-180-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
1356. # [17:41] <Dashiva> Accepted
1357. # [17:43] <Philip`> Interestingly the results are far tighter (and better) if you use bzip2
1358. # [17:43] <Dashiva> Is the default gzip compression level a reasonable assumption?
1359. # [17:46] <Philip`> Yes
1360. # [17:46] <Philip`> Don't know if it's a correct assumption, though
1361. # [17:46] <Philip`> Strangely, xz (LZMA) is slightly worse than bzip2 here
1362. # [17:50] <Dashiva> Not much difference with maximum compression on gzip anyhow
1363. # [17:52] <Philip`> You can save ~7% over gzip -9 by using 7z's gzip implementation
1364. # [17:53] * Joins: JoePeck (~jjp@2620:0:1b00:1171:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
1365. # [17:54] * Quits: twolfe18 (~twolfe18@c-71-61-180-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: twolfe18)
1366. # [17:54] <Philip`> (...though you wouldn't do that dynamically on a web server because it's way too slow)
1367. # [17:55] <Philip`> (but it's good whenever you're precomputing compressed files)
1368. # [17:55] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
1369. # [17:55] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-xksdnmzybekeprhy)
1370. # [17:56] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
1371. # [17:56] * Parts: akahn (~akahn@remote.freepress.net)
1372. # [17:57] * Joins: twolfe18 (~twolfe18@c-71-61-180-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
1373. # [18:01] * Quits: pesla (~retep@188.202.125.121) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com ))
1374. # [18:02] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
1375. # [18:03] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
1376. # [18:03] <JonathanNeal> Heyo!
1377. # [18:05] <Dashiva> Philip`: But it doesn't seem to change the relative ranking of the methods
1378. # [18:05] <Dashiva> That's the most important thing, I think
1379. # [18:06] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
1380. # [18:14] <Philip`> Dashiva: The most important thing is the size of the output, since the author's goal is to minimise that
1381. # [18:14] <Philip`> and if using a better compression implementation gives you a larger percentage gain than changing the charset, it's probably better for people to focus on the former before worrying too much about the latter
1382. # [18:16] <Dashiva> Compression is a different trade-off, though, since it also requires resources to (de)compress
1383. # [18:16] <Philip`> I guess so
1384. # [18:16] <Philip`> It's more complex to changing the compression code and to make it cached so it goes fast etc
1385. # [18:17] <Philip`> so maybe it's better to do dumb stuff like recompress static files on every single request, and make easy changes like reencoding the static file
1386. # [18:18] <Dashiva> But of course, in the end it's the size in actual bytes that matters
1387. # [18:19] * Quits: twolfe18 (~twolfe18@c-71-61-180-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: twolfe18)
1388. # [18:19] <Philip`> Most compression algorithms seem to be designed to maximise resource usage on compression and minimise on decompression
1389. # [18:20] <Philip`> (e.g. LZMA can happily use 1GB RAM to compress, and a tenth of that for decompression)
1390. # [18:21] <Philip`> which seems precisely the wrong way around when you're doing compression on a single centralised server, and decompression on a thousand fast unutilised desktop PCs simultaneously
1391. # [18:29] * Joins: cohitre (~cohitre@97-113-165-17.tukw.qwest.net)
1392. # [18:30] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@97-113-165-17.tukw.qwest.net)
1393. # [18:32] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1394. # [18:32] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
1395. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> Philip`, the server can cache the compressed files.
1396. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> Assuming they're more or less static.
1397. # [18:35] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.17.104)
1398. # [18:36] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-339fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
1399. # [18:45] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
1400. # [18:52] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
1401. # [19:01] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.104.238)
1402. # [19:04] * Quits: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
1403. # [19:08] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-exnxvzsptrabqqpp)
1404. # [19:12] * Quits: JoePeck (~jjp@2620:0:1b00:1171:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a) (Remote host closed the connection)
1405. # [19:13] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
1406. # [19:13] * Joins: JoePeck (~jjp@2620:0:1b00:1f02:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
1407. # [19:15] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-avbcyxhaiukdmpjs)
1408. # [19:16] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1409. # [19:29] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.224)
1410. # [19:34] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Remote host closed the connection)
1411. # [19:36] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1412. # [19:36] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
1413. # [19:41] * JonathanNeal_ is now known as JonathanNeal
1414. # [19:48] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-e6c0e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
1415. # [19:52] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1416. # [19:54] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
1417. # [19:57] * Joins: eighty4_ (~eighty4@c-e6c0e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
1418. # [19:59] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-e6c0e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1419. # [20:00] * Joins: ROBOd2 (~robod@109.96.249.44)
1420. # [20:01] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.139.147) (Read error: Operation timed out)
1421. # [20:01] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
1422. # [20:07] * Joins: cohitre (~cohitre@174-21-104-138.tukw.qwest.net)
1423. # [20:07] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@174-21-104-138.tukw.qwest.net)
1424. # [20:08] * Joins: Nikita (~4b539e60@gateway/web/freenode/x-crmtgtlzliwcxuzq)
1425. # [20:17] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1426. # [20:23] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
1427. # [20:27] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.104.238) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1428. # [20:29] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
1429. # [20:32] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1430. # [20:32] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
1431. # [20:35] * JonathanNeal_ is now known as JonathanNeal
1432. # [20:35] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
1433. # [20:36] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
1434. # [20:37] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
1435. # [20:46] * Joins: kennyluck_ (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3508:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
1436. # [20:46] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~kaosoft@190.24.156.162)
1437. # [20:47] * Quits: eighty4_ (~eighty4@c-e6c0e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1438. # [20:48] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1439. # [20:48] * kennyluck_ is now known as kennyluck
1440. # [20:49] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-3cc3e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
1441. # [20:53] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.104.238)
1442. # [20:56] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Quit: Leaving...)
1443. # [20:56] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
1444. # [20:56] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host)
1445. # [20:56] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
1446. # [20:57] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
1447. # [21:02] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-xksdnmzybekeprhy) (Remote host closed the connection)
1448. # [21:02] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-fztvgzarqdkhgvoq)
1449. # [21:07] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.104.238) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1450. # [21:16] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Quit: Lost terminal)
1451. # [21:20] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
1452. # [21:25] * Quits: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk) (Excess Flood)
1453. # [21:25] * Joins: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk)
1454. # [21:27] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1455. # [21:27] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1456. # [21:27] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
1457. # [21:30] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Quit: Lost terminal)
1458. # [21:31] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: Leaving)
1459. # [21:48] * Quits: Nikita (~4b539e60@gateway/web/freenode/x-crmtgtlzliwcxuzq) (Quit: Page closed)
1460. # [22:02] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb)
1461. # [22:14] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1462. # [22:16] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
1463. # [22:18] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.104.238)
1464. # [22:20] * Quits: ukai (~ukai@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1465. # [22:34] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.224) (Quit: weinig)
1466. # [22:40] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
1467. # [22:41] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
1468. # [22:42] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.224)
1469. # [22:45] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Client Quit)
1470. # [22:45] * Quits: ROBOd2 (~robod@109.96.249.44) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
1471. # [22:45] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
1472. # [22:46] * Joins: ukai (~ukai@220.109.219.244)
1473. # [22:49] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-3cc3e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1474. # [22:50] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-3cc3e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
1475. # [22:51] * Joins: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@82.113.104.239)
1476. # [22:54] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.104.238) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1477. # [22:58] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
1478. # [22:59] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Quit: heading to sf.)
1479. # [23:02] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925209789.dsl.bell.ca)
1480. # [23:05] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1481. # [23:10] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925209789.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb)
1482. # [23:11] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
1483. # [23:14] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@166.196.171.113)
1484. # [23:15] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
1485. # [23:19] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.94)
1486. # [23:22] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@166.196.171.113) (Quit: snovvvv)
1487. # [23:22] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-sctequgyduhylfdw)
1488. # [23:29] * Quits: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@82.113.104.239) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1489. # [23:29] <Hixie> Dashiva: http://dashiva.net/misc/multiple_speakers.jpg - did those cues appear simultaneously?
1490. # [23:29] <Hixie> Dashiva: or do they appear staggered?
1491. # [23:29] <Dashiva> They interleave
1492. # [23:29] <Dashiva> Each image has one conversation going at its own pace
1493. # [23:29] <Hixie> interesting
1494. # [23:30] <Hixie> i'd love to study that in more detail
1495. # [23:30] <Hixie> is it online anywhere?
1496. # [23:30] <Dashiva> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw5JBWdaUHI
1497. # [23:32] <Hixie> awesome
1498. # [23:33] <Hixie> sweet lord
1499. # [23:34] * Hixie gets to t=0m40s
1500. # [23:34] <Hixie> shoot me now
1501. # [23:34] <Dashiva> Yeah, I don't think we need to copy those effects
1502. # [23:35] <Hixie> interesting, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw5JBWdaUHI#t=0m12s shows that the red subs are fixed to line -2, while the blue subs are fixed to line -1
1503. # [23:36] <Hixie> they're not just stacking at the bottom first-come-first-served
1504. # [23:36] <Hixie> and percentage or pixel positioning isn't going to cut it for that
1505. # [23:36] <Hixie> we need line-based positioning
1506. # [23:37] <Hixie> excellent find, thanks Dashiva
1507. # [23:37] * Joins: michaeln (~michaeln@nat/google/x-ekvlbszeibjkrkpq)
1508. # [23:41] <Dashiva> (Another effect I'm not sure is needed is having subtitles resize and move to follow the original text being animated)
1509. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I believe the correct generalization here is "ignore the Japanese, they're insane".
1510. # [23:41] <Hixie> with perspective transforms to boot? :-)
1511. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> (see also: recent Unicode emoticon discussion)
1512. # [23:42] <Hixie> AryehGregor: hha
1513. # [23:42] <Hixie> hah even
1514. # [23:42] <Dashiva> Hmm, perhaps
1515. # [23:42] <Hixie> AryehGregor: we don't want to ignore them, we just want to take the needs of the anime subbing community with a pinch of salt :-)
1516. # [23:43] <Dashiva> Even within the community there's plenty of pushback against the more advanced stuff
1517. # [23:43] <Hixie> for the more advanced effects, i expect we'll just have people overlaying a canvas
1518. # [23:43] <Hixie> or svg
1519. # [23:44] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: But the bad news is you have similar things being produced in France and even USA now :P
1520. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, we can ignore more countries on an as-needed basis.
1521. # [23:50] <Dashiva> Maybe just ignore karaoke as a valid use case, you can do a lot with the tools needed for just regular text
1522. # [23:50] <Philip`> Hixie: Perspective transforms would be great - then we could have subtitles which replace the Star Wars opening crawls with equivalently rendered text in other languages
1523. # [23:50] * Dashiva groans
1524. # [23:51] <Hixie> indeed
1525. # [23:51] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
1526. # [23:55] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-fztvgzarqdkhgvoq) (Remote host closed the connection)
1527. # [23:55] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-lbxfjxyxagbbtkpj)
1528. # [23:55] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
1529. # Session Close: Sat Apr 24 00:00:00 2010

The end :)