/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 24 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> "From the current state of the discussion, it seems like removing Atom conversion would draw the weakest objections."
  4. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> It seems like removing things always draws the weakest objections. Let's just put everything controversial in the WHATWG spec only so that W3C change proposals can't affect it. Is that what people want?
  5. # [00:05] <Dashiva> Yes, a few of them
  6. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Proposing that something be removed doesn't make it go away.
  7. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Well, a few people might want that, but not the people who try to get these things removed.
  8. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Actually, no, that's what anyone wants. Some people want things removed from the WHATWG spec too. They just can't get that.
  9. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Maybe they figure that even if they can't get it removed from the WHATWG spec, at least they can remove it from the W3C spec, and that will make people less likely to see it?
  10. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Of course, the more this happens, the less useful the W3C spec becomes, and the more people will use the WHATWG spec.
  11. # [00:07] <Dashiva> You can also see it as a PR battle, creating division between W3C and WHATWG
  12. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> The W3C has a more positive reputation than the WHATWG, certainly. Much better known, too.
  13. # [00:10] <Dashiva> It's also likely that since the WHATWG copy exists, people have less incentive to fight to preserve the W3C copy
  14. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> That's true too.
  15. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> Fragmentation is often the easiest option, although rarely the best.
  16. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> See also microdata vs. RDFa. If we knew in advance that only one could exist, whichever one we had would probably be better than either of the two contenders now.
  17. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> But instead, everyone who likes one of them just ignores the other rather than trying to fix its deficiencies.
  18. # [00:13] <Dashiva> To be fair, RDFa seems to be absorbing some of the good ideas of microdata. It just doesn't seem as willing to part with the bad ideas.
  19. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Fwiw, I've done a relatively thorough and open review of RDFa 1.1. I think it's unfixable at this point, though. They just made some initial architectural mistakes and have dug themselves down far enough in an attempt to reduce their impact that you can't "fix" it without substantially rewriting it.
  20. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> The basic failure is not paying enough attention to the tree-based structure of XML, and relying on a notion of implicit subjects, rather than declaring subjects more explicitly.
  21. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Then they made it worse by trying to be clever with the chaining concept.
  22. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> Bah, someone complained about this wording! http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7277
  23. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> I appreciated that wording when I started reading the spec.
  24. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> The whole prefix/curie thing is pretty much a non-issue at this point. 1.1's @vocab and @profile attributes successfully hide the complexity in common cases.
  25. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Basically, chapter 8 of RDFa1.1 speaks for itself about why the basic RDFa architecture is a mistake.
  26. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> It has like 60 examples, possibly more, walking through several things step-by-step because otherwise it's impossible to decipher.
  27. # [00:20] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  28. # [00:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: complexity can't be hidden unless it's gone from the syntax altogether, because people have to maintain other people's code, and the other person might use the feature that's complicated
  29. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> True. It's at least lessened. Using @vocab *looks* like Microdata with @itemtype on simple cases.
  30. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> . . . of course, you could say the same about HTML. But I guess you'd say that there are few enough RDFa agents that we care about that we can break compatibility anyway.
  31. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Exactly.
  32. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> Or, more importantly, few enough RDFa pages.
  33. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> Since a few implementations can be changed pretty easily.
  34. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Once I finish setting up my workflow, I might spend a few hours hacking our Rich Snippets support to ensure that it works with Microdata properly.
  35. # [00:23] <Dashiva> It seems to be some of the same people saying we can ignore deployed HTML5 content because it's not a standard yet who proclaim existing RDFa-in-HTML content must be supported
  36. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Those people don't have a point, they're just inconsistent due to their agenda.
  37. # [00:24] * AryehGregor tried to rewrite that to reverse the roles, but it didn't work
  38. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yay! That's how you know it's true.
  39. # [00:24] <Dashiva> I'm sure you can reverse it
  40. # [00:24] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  41. # [00:24] <Dashiva> You just need to apply a secondary measure
  42. # [00:24] <Dashiva> E.g. we can't ignore [massively] deployed HTML5 content, but we can ignore [small amounts of] RDFa-in-HTML
  43. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Well, we ignore deployed RDFa+HTML content because there's not a lot of it, but there's a lot of HTML content, so it seems consistent. I'd need to be more creative.
  44. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Indeed, but if you apply that measure with the original statement, it becomes obviously ridiculous.
  45. # [00:25] <Dashiva> It seems obvious, but I'm not sure it's necessarily so
  46. # [00:25] <Dashiva> e.g. if you take the claims that blog software ships with it enabled by default, and doing something useful by default
  47. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Most blog software also outputs HTML.
  48. # [00:26] <Dashiva> I personally don't think anyone would notice even if it was deployed by default, but I don't have the data to back it up
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  50. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> I think WHATWG people tend to only really care about browsers (and maybe search engines and feed readers and such), while the specific technology is usually more or less of secondary interest. The RDFa people seem to be more invested in a particular technology than in a particular high-level goal.
  51. # [00:27] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: cying)
  52. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> The same is true for lots of people who disagree with WHATWG people, actually.
  53. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> That technology is "namespaces", for RDFa.
  54. # [00:28] <Dashiva> And RDF ;)
  55. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> RDF's not necessarily a problem. You could parse RDFa data into JSON with roughly the same ease as you parse Microdata into RDF.
  56. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Is there anything wrong with RDF, or just RDFa?
  57. # [00:29] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  58. # [00:29] <othermaciej> RDF as a data model
  59. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> RDF is just a rolled-out version of tree-based data.
  60. # [00:29] <othermaciej> ?
  61. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> With a focus on URIs.
  62. # [00:29] <othermaciej> RDF is not tree-based data, it is graph-based
  63. # [00:30] <Dashiva> Not necessarily wrong, but coming from a graph structure and designing for a tree is tricky
  64. # [00:30] <Dashiva> Graphs should be the exception, trees the norm
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  66. # [00:31] <Dashiva> But if you come from a world where everything is graphs, it can be hard to adapt
  67. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> All trees are graphs, and they're more common in real data, so I still think my gloss is mostly accurate.
  68. # [00:31] <erlehmann> I like graphs.
  69. # [00:31] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: It's a graph in total, but each page usually only contains a tree-like subgraph
  70. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Right, that's what I tried to say, but failed to do so clearly.
  71. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Thanks for the clarification. ^_^
  72. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> So anyway, that's why RDFa's essential architecture is wrong. It didn't take full advantage of the parallel between most data's tree-nature and HT/XML's tree-like nature.
  73. # [00:34] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: all trees are directed graphs, but not vice versa
  74. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: That's what I said, isn't it?
  75. # [00:34] <othermaciej> earlier you said "RDF is just a rolled-out version of tree-based data."
  76. # [00:34] <othermaciej> maybe I misinterpreted that statement
  77. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Right, I left out some details that Dashiva corrected me on.
  78. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> In a hand-wavey way, I mean that the RDF structure of data embedded in pages is typically a tree, or at least very tree-like.
  79. # [00:35] <othermaciej> I agree that a lot of interesting data can be expressed well enough with a tree, rather than a general directed graph
  80. # [00:36] <othermaciej> I suspect a lot of RDFa at least points to common objects and so is likely at least a DAG
  81. # [00:36] <Dashiva> Yeah, I should have said DAG instead of tree. Even microdata is like that.
  82. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  83. # [00:37] <othermaciej> Microdata is a DAG?
  84. # [00:37] <Dashiva> With itemref
  85. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> And, in a larger sense, with itemid.
  86. # [00:37] <othermaciej> itemref just clones some properties though
  87. # [00:38] <othermaciej> does the actual Microdata model retain a DAG structure?
  88. # [00:38] <othermaciej> are you pointing to the same conceptual object, or do you just happen to have properties with the same values?
  89. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> No, it serializes as a tree.
  90. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> But, if you lean on urls as values, it retains exactly as much DAGness as RDF would.
  91. # [00:41] <Hixie> RDF isn't natively a graph at all, it's a list of triples
  92. # [00:41] <Hixie> actually even that's not accurate
  93. # [00:41] <Hixie> it's a list of quads
  94. # [00:42] <Hixie> with some annotations
  95. # [00:42] <Hixie> but you can form a graph from that list
  96. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> The graphness comes from defining a form of url-equality, yeah.
  97. # [00:42] <Hixie> microdata is natively a tree, that you can flatten to a list of triples, from which you can also create a graph
  98. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> What's the quad? The object type?
  99. # [00:42] <Hixie> value type
  100. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Right, yeah.
  101. # [00:43] <Hixie> and annotations are language of the value if it's a literal, and source of the triple
  102. # [00:43] <Hixie> also the literal can itself be structured XML
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  104. # [00:45] <othermaciej> RDF serializations are a list of triples/quads/whatever
  105. # [00:45] <othermaciej> but RDF the data model is a graph
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  107. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Under your wording, othermaciej, Microdata's data model can indeed be a DAG, if you lean on url-equality to associate nodes as being the same (the same thing you have to do to make RDF a graph).
  108. # [00:48] <Hixie> right
  109. # [00:48] <othermaciej> but no cycles?
  110. # [00:48] <Hixie> microdata itself isn't but when you convert it to RDF you can get the same kind of graph with cycles
  111. # [00:48] <Hixie> the only thing you can't do cycles through in microdata iirc is bnodes
  112. # [00:48] <Hixie> but since you can just give them unique IDs, that becomes a non-issue
  113. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Yeah, bnodes in Microdata are only as blank as you allow them to be.
  114. # [00:50] <othermaciej> I don't really understand what a bnode is
  115. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> A node in the data graph without an associated url.
  116. # [00:50] <Hixie> it's a node without an identifier
  117. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> In Microdata's RDF serialization, a bnode is the subject of all the triples generated by an @itemscope without an @itemid.
  118. # [00:52] <Hixie> it's hard to say exactly what the RDF model is since there's no official API; the only reason I'd say microdata's model is a tree and not the RDF graph is that there's an explicit microdata API that does't follow the URL refs and thus makes it a tree
  119. # [00:53] <othermaciej> the API being proposed by RDFa doesn't expose a graph or tree at all
  120. # [00:53] <othermaciej> just a list of triples
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  122. # [00:53] <Hixie> right, like i said, RDF's model is just a list :-)
  123. # [00:53] <othermaciej> which seems like a pretty lousy interface
  124. # [00:53] <Hixie> which by convention can be interpreted as a graph
  125. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> I believe you're just supposed to parse the triples out and then hand them to a triple-store which will make the node associations for you.
  126. # [00:55] <Hixie> yeah the usual way of working with RDF is through queries, not through an API
  127. # [00:55] <othermaciej> but if you are running as JS in the browser, you don't have a triple store available
  128. # [00:55] <othermaciej> I expected the RDFa API itself to be a "triple store"
  129. # [00:55] <othermaciej> maybe that was a bad assumption
  130. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> You'd be disappointed, then. ^_^
  131. # [00:55] <othermaciej> er
  132. # [00:56] <othermaciej> assumption
  133. # [00:56] <Hixie> it's not clear to me that the people designing the API are doing it for any reason other than to say they have an API
  134. # [00:56] <othermaciej> it seems like this model makes it very hard to have a live triple store on a dynamically modified document
  135. # [00:56] <Hixie> (unlike the microdata API, which is designed to make the information available)
  136. # [00:56] <Hixie> but then browser vendors are even less likely to implement a real triple store with querying than to implement the flat API
  137. # [00:56] <Hixie> so...
  138. # [00:57] <othermaciej> a triple store API would be more complicated to implement, but on the other hand it might have a real use case
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  148. # [01:46] <kennyluck> Firefox does have this triple store implementation. Just wonder how old it is.
  149. # [01:47] <kennyluck> I missed the discussion I should have joined :(
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  167. # [03:01] <JonathanNeal> Woot
  168. # [03:01] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/createElement/
  169. # [03:01] <JonathanNeal> vs http://sandbox.thewikies.com/createElement/before.html
  170. # [03:02] <TabAtkins> Should I be looking at that in IE?
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  172. # [03:04] <TabAtkins> Also: your loop syntax is so horrible. ;_; I really don't understand why you value a microsecond or two over the clarity of a for loop.
  173. # [03:06] <TabAtkins> Otherwise, though, seems very clever. I approve.
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  175. # [03:11] <TabAtkins> Argh, I'm introducing too much abstraction here, but I'm not sure of the best way to collapse one of the abstraction levels. >_<
  176. # [03:11] <TabAtkins> Anytime you have to introduce *two* new levels of abstract directional terminology, you're doing something wrong.
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  203. # [04:31] <jlebar> Hixie, Is there a reason that offline manifests don't treat form feed characters (and other unicode space characters) as whitespace?
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  205. # [04:32] <jlebar> e.g. step 17 in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/offline.html#writing-cache-manifests
  206. # [04:32] <annevk> consistency
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  208. # [04:32] <jlebar> annevk, with what?
  209. # [04:32] <annevk> text/plain, HTML, CSS, etc.?
  210. # [04:33] <jlebar> the split on spaces algorithm does consider ff to be whitespace.
  211. # [04:34] <jlebar> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#skip-whitespace
  212. # [04:34] <annevk> sure, but newlines are always just CR and LF or CRLF
  213. # [04:35] <jlebar> Right. But the step in the algorithm I first mentioned is stripping whitespace off the end of a line.
  214. # [04:37] <annevk> aah I see now
  215. # [04:37] <annevk> sorry
  216. # [04:38] <jlebar> np
  217. # [04:38] <annevk> seems like a bug of some sorts
  218. # [04:38] <jlebar> Perhaps. But Hixie may have some grand plan. He often does. :)
  219. # [04:40] <annevk> maybe he tries to keep FF out of cache manifests but the inconsistency seems confusing
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  266. # [08:40] <Hixie> anyone remember what the term is for a block's overall bidi direction?
  267. # [08:43] <annevk> base writing direction of blocks?
  268. # [08:43] <annevk> (comes from a google search)
  269. # [08:43] <Hixie> doesn't sound right
  270. # [08:44] <Hixie> i mean the post-bidi-algorithm direction
  271. # [08:44] <Hixie> the one that decides whether 'text-align:start' is left or right
  272. # [08:45] <Hixie> wait, text-align is dependent on 'start', not on the actual direction?
  273. # [08:45] <Hixie> er, on 'direction', i mean, not 'start'
  274. # [08:45] <annevk> dunno, sorry
  275. # [08:46] <annevk> haven't followed that stuff recently since in discussions vertical text is added on top of it which makes my brain explode (or at least wander off)
  276. # [08:46] <Hixie> i guess i mean the value that decides whether a "." at the end of the string goes to the left or the right in the rendering
  277. # [08:49] <Hixie> looks like i mean the direction of the character found in the bidi algorithm step P2
  278. # [08:50] <Hixie> which seems to be called the "paragraph direction"
  279. # [08:51] <Hixie> ah, the paragraph embedding level
  280. # [08:51] <Hixie> there we go
  281. # [08:53] <Hixie> man it's been so long since i've worked on bidi stuff
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  283. # [08:57] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, bidi spec says it's sometimes called the "base direction", thanks
  284. # [09:01] <annevk> what are you working on btw? there's no open bidi issues afaict (apart from the unfinished i18n document I guess)
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  286. # [09:03] <tagawa> hello!
  287. # [09:03] <annevk> hey tagawa :)
  288. # [09:03] <tagawa> (sorry, just testing)
  289. # [09:04] <Hixie> annevk: positioning of subtitles
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  292. # [09:06] <annevk> ah right, forgot about captioning
  293. # [09:06] <annevk> o_O
  294. # [09:06] <Hixie> heh
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  307. # [10:22] <nessy> good that somebody with knowledge looks at i18n issues for subtitles!
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  314. # [10:50] <JonathanNeal> Updated http://sandbox.thewikies.com/createElement/before.html and http://sandbox.thewikies.com/createElement/ to include multiple libraries working with html5 elements successfully.
  315. # [10:52] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Which code is the code that you actually wrote?
  316. # [10:52] <jgraham> i.e. what should I be looking at?
  317. # [10:55] <JonathanNeal> I wrote the tests, and I wrote the "shimproof" script.
  318. # [10:55] <JonathanNeal> It is an evil script that proves a point, but beyond that, it should not be used. Rather, it should be implemented into js libraries.
  319. # [10:55] <jgraham> You know it would be friendly to include a non-minimised version if you want people to read it :)
  320. # [10:56] <JonathanNeal> I thought shimproof.min.js made it obvious, but sure http://sandbox.thewikies.com/createElement/shimproof.js
  321. # [10:56] <JonathanNeal> It's just an experiment :D
  322. # [10:57] * jgraham wonders if he should propose a way of accessing the AST from javascript to TC39 so that it is easy to implemnt pretty-printers
  323. # [10:57] <jgraham> (as well as all sorts of other exciting things)
  324. # [10:57] <jgraham> (I guess they would hate it though)
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  326. # [11:00] <Philip`> Why do you need a standardised API for implementing pretty-printers?
  327. # [11:00] <Philip`> Isn't it fine to just have a standalone pretty-printing tool that uses private APIs of a specific implementation?
  328. # [11:03] <jgraham> Philip`: I don't really. But it's not like there are lots of existing implementations that expose private APIs to do what I want either
  329. # [11:04] <Philip`> Getting an implementation to expose a private API sounds like far less effort than getting every implementation to expose a public API
  330. # [11:05] <jgraham> It's really unclear that that is true :)
  331. # [11:06] <jgraham> Also I guess it would be nice if you don't need java in order to use most existing minifiers
  332. # [11:06] <jgraham> *didn't
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  334. # [11:07] <Philip`> How can it not be true? The public API is as much effort as doing the private API multiplied by the number of implementations, plus the cost of coordination
  335. # [11:08] <jgraham> Because the cost to me isn't the implementation cost it is the cost of convincing people
  336. # [11:08] <Philip`> I was assuming you weren't being so selfish as to only consider the cost to yourself ;-)
  337. # [11:09] <Philip`> (Given the apparent pain and suffering involved with SpiderMonkey's decompiler, I doubt implementors want to do much more of that kind of thing - computing and storing perfect lossless ASTs seems to conflict with optimisation goals, and deriving an AST from more optimised data structures is hard)
  338. # [11:11] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Why the use of the foo[constant] syntax everywhere rather than foo.constant? The latter is more readable and, at least in some modern engines, more performant (IE might be different of course)
  339. # [11:12] <JonathanNeal> Just to make the script under 1k minified
  340. # [11:12] <JonathanNeal> It doesn't really matter.
  341. # [11:14] <Dashiva> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHrTE-PLAsc&feature=related#t=6m20s
  342. # [11:15] <Dashiva> I wonder if you can justify subtitling something people wouldn't normally be able to hear properly anyway
  343. # [11:31] <webben> Dashiva: Sure. TV often does that when voices are hard to hear for some reason (e.g. bad recording).
  344. # [11:36] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-130-178.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
  345. # [11:49] <Philip`> (It's interesting to see when TV shows consider English-speaking people to have a sufficiently peculiar accent that they have to be subtitled)
  346. # [11:51] <Philip`> (e.g. it seems Americans sometimes find Scottish accents tricky)
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  369. # [13:20] <Dashiva> Philip`: There's a funny video like that
  370. # [13:20] <Dashiva> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3084g_newsreportfromiraq_fun
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  373. # [13:34] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5_video doesn't seem to conform to Wikipedia policies
  374. # [13:35] <hsivonen> lots of [citation needed] and [weasel words] missing there
  375. # [13:35] <Philip`> Dashiva: I like how the subtitles get completely obscured by the popup advert
  376. # [13:41] <mr_daniel> I wonder where the 'dblclick' event is specified? I just read the DOM Level 2 Events recommendation, specifically the mouse events. The 'dblclick' event is not described: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-MouseEvent
  377. # [13:42] <mr_daniel> but on the other hand the wikipedia article about DOM Level 2 Events states that there is a 'dblclick' event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOM_events#HTML_events
  378. # [13:43] <mr_daniel> so where does the 'dblclick' event come from? Is it supported by all browsers, which support DOM Level 2 Events? Or should I avoid the use of the 'dblclick' event?
  379. # [13:56] <nessy> Dashiva - hehe - I really enjoyed that video ;)
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  386. # [14:39] <Henrik`G> hey peoples i have a box with links of latest posts in my sidebar
  387. # [14:39] <Henrik`G> and i am wondering if it is a section or a div would be the best use
  388. # [14:39] <Henrik`G> my sense says section because it starts with a header and then th ul
  389. # [14:39] <Henrik`G> the
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  400. # [16:30] <ray> hehe, [[deep pockets]]
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  422. # [18:48] <Dashiva> I think Dean needs a timeout...
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  443. # [20:26] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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  445. # [20:29] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-3cc3e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  461. # [21:53] * jlebar|away is now known as jlebar
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  481. # [23:19] * Quits: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-108-100.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  482. # [23:36] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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  485. # [23:53] * Quits: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@p5DDBA58D.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  486. # Session Close: Sun Apr 25 00:00:00 2010

The end :)