/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-26 / end

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48. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-April/047617.html
49. # [02:48] * AryehGregor waits for someone here to inform him of the various factual errors he made about XML in that post
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85. # [04:40] <annevk> everyone else was on a weekend break too?
86. # [04:40] <annevk> no fun logs to read :/
87. # [04:41] <nessy> hehe! we have a long w/e here!
88. # [04:41] <othermaciej> annevk: you could make your own fun logs!
89. # [04:41] <othermaciej> just pick someone to flame
90. # [04:41] <doublec> nessy: really? You have an extra day for anzac day?
91. # [04:42] <roc> they do
92. # [04:42] <doublec> nice, the kiwi's get ripped off in that regard
93. # [04:42] <roc> actually, NZ does too, I just lied to get you guys into the office
94. # [04:43] <doublec> haha
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96. # [04:43] <nessy> doublec: yes, anzac day holiday! means I get to catch up on work! :)
97. # [04:44] <doublec> nessy: in NZ we don't get an extra day if anzac day falls on a weekend
98. # [04:44] <nessy> so, no difference to you either
99. # [04:44] <nessy> it's a nice feature of Australian holidays
100. # [04:44] <nessy> if they fall on weekends you get them back during the next week
101. # [04:44] <nessy> unknown in Germany, too
102. # [04:44] <roc> it's true for the Christmas holidays here
103. # [04:45] <roc> I don't know why Anzac Day is different
104. # [04:46] <doublec> apparently they don't 'mondayize' holidays that have actual national historical significance
105. # [04:46] <doublec> so waitangi day is also left out
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108. # [04:50] <nessy> that's inconsistent
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113. # [04:51] <nessy> I have a question about Firefox and video - does Firefox store the byte ranges in an actual file on disk, so when all byte ranges have been downloaded the full original files is available? or do you just keep the byte ranges in memory and throw them out?
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115. # [04:52] <doublec> we keep the ranges on disk in a 'media cache' but throw them out when you leave the page
116. # [04:53] <doublec> we also cache the video in the standard browser cache if it meets caching requirements - but due to the nature of video (seeking, large files, etc) it often doesn't meet those requirements
117. # [04:54] <doublec> the media cache is shared across all videos being played too - and defaults to 50MB iirc. As more video gets played old entries in the cache get evicted
118. # [04:55] <nessy> so in the 'media cache' you won't typically end up with the full original file
119. # [04:55] <nessy> just its byte ranges as temp storage?
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121. # [04:55] <doublec> nessy: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2009/04/media_cache.html
122. # [04:55] <doublec> nessy: correct
123. # [04:55] <nessy> I'm asking, since it's then not strictly progressive download as described here http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2009/04/media_cache.html
124. # [04:56] <roc> why does it matter?
125. # [04:56] <nessy> it's more like actual streaming and more secure - except for the "Download src" right context menu functionality :)
126. # [04:57] <nessy> thanks for the link!
127. # [04:57] <nessy> ppl are concerned about the possibility to "steal" the original file in a simple way
128. # [04:57] <doublec> that's pretty easy with html 5 video...
129. # [04:58] <nessy> I have a potential customer who wants to use rtp/rtsp instead of http server for html5 video because it's less prone to stealing
130. # [04:58] <doublec> in the same was as 'stealing' an image is
131. # [04:58] <nessy> yes, exactly
132. # [04:58] <doublec> I'm pretty sure rtp/rtsp will only work in one browser
133. # [04:58] <doublec> if at all
134. # [04:58] <doublec> (I'm thinking Safari)
135. # [04:58] <nessy> yes, I think so too
136. # [04:58] <nessy> are you planning to support it?
137. # [04:59] <doublec> There's a bug for it. No known plans to do anything in the immediate future.
138. # [04:59] <nessy> fair enough
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140. # [05:00] <nessy> I don't think Opera or Chrome support it either or plan to
141. # [05:00] <doublec> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=506834
142. # [05:00] <nessy> and I'm not sure Safari supports it properly other than their HTTP adaptive streaming
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144. # [05:02] <annevk> I wish these DRM-requesting types would realize they're wrong :/
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146. # [05:02] <nessy> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26416
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148. # [05:03] <nessy> annevk: this guy is offering paid content and ppl go steal his stuff and resell it - I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting some control over this situation
149. # [05:04] <doublec> the people who want to steal it and resell it have the resources to rip it using any tool they want
150. # [05:04] <doublec> no matter what you do
151. # [05:05] <doublec> it's hard to the people offering the content of that though
152. # [05:05] <doublec> there's a 'convince' in between 'to' and 'the' there :)
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154. # [05:06] <nessy> he said he cut the problems by 85% when moving from http to rtsp
155. # [05:06] <nessy> that's substantial when you're running a biz
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158. # [05:08] <roc> that sounds odd
159. # [05:08] <doublec> how did he measure that?
160. # [05:08] <roc> perhaps there's no off-the-shelf RTSP ripper yet and all his enemies are too stupid to write one
161. # [05:08] <nessy> it's safety by more obscurity, is all I think
162. # [05:08] <doublec> there's a few RTSP rippers around for Windows at least. And gstreamer, etc can be used on Linux.
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164. # [05:09] <doublec> what % of viewers did he lose going to rtsp?
165. # [05:09] <nessy> he frequently trolls all the public video sites for his content, cause that's where it turns up, too
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167. # [05:09] <roc> doing a ton of work and integrating heaps more code into the browser just to raise the obscurity bar a minute amount doesn't sound like a win to me
168. # [05:09] <nessy> non cause he did it all in Flash
169. # [05:09] <nessy> might have been Flash steaming rather than rtsp, actually
170. # [05:10] <doublec> interesting
171. # [05:10] <doublec> when poker training sites first started out they all used rtsp or flash streaming solutions with DRM for training videos
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173. # [05:11] <doublec> the newer sites however moved to DRM free
174. # [05:11] <roc> 05e790926d9ee13e08916f878432adbb
175. # [05:11] <doublec> and got more customers as a result
176. # [05:11] <doublec> because people could play them anywhere
177. # [05:11] <doublec> and the videos weren't pirated any more than the DRM video sites videos
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179. # [05:12] * doublec starts a cracking roc's hash
180. # [05:12] <nessy> yeah - I am not convinced either
181. # [05:12] <nessy> I didn't want to encourage rtsp implementation - was just curious about status
182. # [05:13] <nessy> he wants to move away from flash and to html5 video cause he hates all the flash stuff - so we'll have to wait and see if that will create pirating again
183. # [05:14] <nessy> I just needed to know more details :)
184. # [05:14] <nessy> thanks!
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194. # [05:57] <annevk> roc, again? :)
195. # [05:57] <annevk> I believe at least one is still without public answer, right?
196. # [06:02] <roc> they all are
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202. # [06:36] <jlebar> roc, how long are the messages, on average?
203. # [06:36] <roc> it varies :-)
204. # [06:36] <roc> this one was just a one-liner
205. # [06:41] <jlebar> Sounds like it may need some salt. :)
206. # [06:41] * Joins: slango (~slango@unaffiliated/iamethos)
207. # [06:41] <jlebar> (Interesting idea for a cryptographic protocol: You give me a hash, and at the same time, proof that the message is a meaningful English sentence, without revealing the sentence.)
208. # [06:41] <slango> am I crazy, or is this page poison to Firefox: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/?
209. # [06:42] <jlebar> slango, It's better in trunk.
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211. # [06:53] <slango> thanks
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220. # [07:20] <magcius> Is this a bug? The scrollbar appears in http://magcius.mecheye.net/canvasbug.html
221. # [07:21] <magcius> I looked into it, and a linebreak textnode is somehow being added.
222. # [07:21] <magcius> Causing the html tag's scrollHeight to be 4px larger.
223. # [07:21] <magcius> It happens in all major browsers
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246. # [09:03] * annevk wonders if he should write a reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Apr/0037.html
247. # [09:03] <annevk> it seems sort of set in stone already that CORS will be abused for fonts
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249. # [09:03] <annevk> I guess I'll write my thoughts anyway, so they can at least be considered
250. # [09:04] <roc> I'd like to read that
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253. # [09:18] <annevk> hmm, I hope my email gets through
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262. # [09:47] <annevk> worked out: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Apr/0040.html
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266. # [10:01] <hsivonen> hmm. what do I need to do to make <svg> not clip its contents to the box established by <svg>?
267. # [10:01] <othermaciej> mess with the viewbox attributes
268. # [10:02] <othermaciej> (I think)
269. # [10:02] <hsivonen> no, viewBox sets up the coordinate space
270. # [10:02] <zcorpan> possibly preserveAspectRatio can change it, but i think at least in opera it'll always be clipped
271. # [10:02] <hsivonen> but how do I make shapes outside the viewBox box get painted outside the box
272. # [10:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oh so the IE9 demo that gets clipped in "other browsers" isn't about "defaults" but about other browsers always clipping?
273. # [10:04] <zcorpan> dunno
274. # [10:04] <othermaciej> I don't know what the IE9 demo is specifically
275. # [10:04] <othermaciej> SVG in theory requires (effectively) that SVG root elements have overflow: hidden !important in the UA stylesheet
276. # [10:05] <othermaciej> I think at least some browsers let you override that to overflow: scroll
277. # [10:05] <hsivonen> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Graphics/21FallingBalls/Default.xhtml
278. # [10:05] <othermaciej> on the theory that the SVG spec didn't know what it was talking about
279. # [10:05] <othermaciej> hsivonen: something different happens in IE?
280. # [10:05] <hsivonen> othermaciej: that's sad. overflow: hidden !important sabotages one of the coolest things one could do with inline SVG
281. # [10:06] <othermaciej> hsivonen: we have that in our UA stylesheet but I am tempted to get rid of it
282. # [10:06] <hsivonen> othermaciej: in IE9, the balls that fall out of the box don't get clipped out
283. # [10:06] <zcorpan> image-fit:cover (or content-fit or what it's called now) should be able to make svg paint outside its box
284. # [10:07] <othermaciej> oh I guess we don't have that any more
285. # [10:07] <othermaciej> just overflow: hidden
286. # [10:07] <othermaciej> the demo could choose to set overflow: visible on the <svg>
287. # [10:07] <hsivonen> is !important supposed to work in the style attribute?
288. # [10:07] <hsivonen> overflow: visible !important; doesn't work for me in <svg style=
289. # [10:07] <hsivonen> in Gecko
290. # [10:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: !important is supposed to work in style="" but it would only affect later declarations in the same style=""
291. # [10:08] <othermaciej> we don't actually have a !important rule in WebKit trunk
292. # [10:08] <hsivonen> looks like I won't be making the demo I wanted to make
293. # [10:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: since style="" is author level and highest specificity, it will override anything that doesn't have !important anyway, and if something earlier has !important then nothing will override it
294. # [10:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is image-fit implemented in any browser?
295. # [10:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it's implemented in opera but not shipped yet
296. # [10:09] <othermaciej> see the comment here for a long-winded explanation of the clipping issue: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebCore/css/svg.css
297. # [10:09] <hsivonen> plain overflow: visible; doesn't work in Gecko, either.
298. # [10:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i hope gecko and webkit will implement it as well since it's really cool
299. # [10:11] <othermaciej> WebKit still clips if I force overflow: visible
300. # [10:11] <othermaciej> not sure why
301. # [10:11] <hsivonen> when I moved from Mac to Linux, I lost the assistive tech for writing namespace URIs :-(
302. # [10:12] <hsivonen> and now I need to write those in order to test SVG in WebKit :-(
303. # [10:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: just memorize them
304. # [10:13] <othermaciej> svg root element seems to clip to its bounds regardless
305. # [10:13] <othermaciej> I could probably figure out why with some code study but I don't have time at the moment
306. # [10:14] <zcorpan> it's really easy, the leading part is invariant, the year is 1999 for xhtml and xlink, 2000 for svg, and the trailing part is xhtml, svg or xlink (no trailing slash for any of them)
307. # [10:14] <zcorpan> the mathml and xml namespaces are harder
308. # [10:14] <othermaciej> I think our rule in svg.css is probably based on an incorrect interpretation of "outermost"
309. # [10:15] <othermaciej> it should really be a rule for svg svg rather than for svg:not(:root) I think
310. # [10:15] <othermaciej> not that this would fix the IE demo but it would make the stylesheet match the comment
311. # [10:16] <othermaciej> hsivonen: what was it that assisted you with the namespace URI before?
312. # [10:16] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Typinator
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314. # [10:18] <othermaciej> that seems like just the sort of product I would expect to exist in some form on Linux
315. # [10:18] <othermaciej> though perhaps in a form with thousands of configuration options, most completely useless
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327. # [10:41] <hsivonen> reading the SVG 1.1 spec for the <animate> element is rather annoying
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329. # [10:46] <hsivonen> I need to find a way to demo MathML that is cool but not verbose as source
330. # [10:47] <annevk> guess you can't use e=mc^2 as you don't need MathML for that?
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333. # [10:50] <webben> how about the uncertainty principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
334. # [10:50] <hsivonen> annevk: right. I want something with at least an integral, fraction or a big square root in it
335. # [10:50] <hsivonen> preferrably something that people recognize
336. # [10:51] <hsivonen> maybe the solution for the 2nd degree equation
337. # [10:51] <jgraham> I was going to suggest that
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339. # [10:52] <jgraham> Not many integral equations that are well known among the general population
340. # [10:52] <hsivonen> I wanted to use Gaussian blur and put also SVG Gaussian blur in the demo, but Gaussian blur as MathML is awfully verbose
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343. # [10:53] <jgraham> Everything is awfully verbose as MathML
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345. # [10:55] <roc> the fact that overflow:visible doesn't work on inline <svg> is just our bug
346. # [10:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://www.gstatic.com/knol/static/images/cartoons/42111-29252.jpg
347. # [11:00] <hsivonen> roc: OK.
348. # [11:00] <Dashiva> Good one, zcorpan
349. # [11:01] <roc> annevk: so if we were to create a new feature to give authors control over who can load their (font) resources, how would it be different from CORS in practice?
350. # [11:02] <othermaciej> roc: apparently a popular bug
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355. # [11:18] * gsnedders wonders if it's at all disturbing taht the first diary entry that Hixie appears in in my diary in years is written while he was intoxinated
356. # [11:18] <gsnedders> (I'm sorry, but any Avenue Q reference makes me think of Hixie now…)
357. # [11:19] <Dashiva> Who replies four times to the same tweet...
358. # [11:20] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@fnttkyo001028.tkyo.fnt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
359. # [11:21] <othermaciej> why does Avenue Q make you think of Hixie?
360. # [11:21] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@fnttkyo001028.tkyo.fnt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp)
361. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Dashiva: someone with more than 140 characters to say?
362. # [11:21] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@fnttkyo001028.tkyo.fnt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
363. # [11:21] <asmodai> hsivonen: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=561714
364. # [11:21] <asmodai> hsivonen: created the bug report for that leak
365. # [11:21] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@fnttkyo001028.tkyo.fnt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp)
366. # [11:21] <annevk> roc, it would work for <img>, <video>, etc. too
367. # [11:22] <annevk> roc, instead of a font-specific hack of CORS
368. # [11:22] <asmodai> Heh, Avenue Q, now I have to think of the Internet is for pr0n.
369. # [11:22] <annevk> roc, which imo is silly
370. # [11:22] <hsivonen> asmodai: thanks
371. # [11:22] <asmodai> hsivonen: ideas for tracking it down more than welcome :)
372. # [11:23] <jgraham> othermaciej: You have met Hixie, right?
373. # [11:23] <othermaciej> jgraham: yes...?
374. # [11:23] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Because he never shuts up about it?
375. # [11:23] <othermaciej> I have also seen Avenue Q
376. # [11:23] <othermaciej> he has never mentioned it to me
377. # [11:24] <gsnedders> Are you not in #webapps
378. # [11:24] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
379. # [11:24] <jgraham> This othermaciej is clearly an imposter
380. # [11:24] <gsnedders> *?
381. # [11:24] <othermaciej> apparently not
382. # [11:24] <othermaciej> this server or w3c?
383. # [11:24] <gsnedders> w3c
384. # [11:24] <jgraham> We need to find the realothermaciej
385. # [11:24] <gsnedders> That's where he makes the majority of references I've seen online
386. # [11:24] <othermaciej> haven't been, just added to my autojoin
387. # [11:25] <othermaciej> I can't recall him mentioning it on this channel or any time I have met him IRL
388. # [11:25] <gsnedders> I've certainly seen it on this channel, on #webapps, and IRL
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391. # [11:27] <jgraham> and on his blog
392. # [11:27] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
393. # [11:29] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=avenue+q+site:krijnhoetmer.nl
394. # [11:29] <annevk> proof
395. # [11:29] <gsnedders> But yes, that's what Hixie gets for people singing The Internet is for Porn while I'm just-about-managing to go home
396. # [11:30] <hsivonen> annevk: looks like there are more instances of gsnedders mentioning Avenue Q than Hixie mentioning it
397. # [11:31] <gsnedders> fail.
398. # [11:31] <jgraham> OTOH Hixie has seen Avenue Q >= 3 times whereas gsnedders has seen it once
399. # [11:31] * Joins: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
400. # [11:31] <annevk> therefore Hixie ranks higher than gsnedders
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403. # [11:38] <zcorpan> if Hixie and gsnedders were in the same Document, we could run the outline algorithm on them
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405. # [11:40] <roc> annevk: my point of view is that CORS lifts same-origin restrictions. I don't see how when those restrictions are imposed "for privacy" CORS is suitable but when those restrictions are imposed for other reasons, lifting them with CORS is an abuse of CORS
406. # [11:40] <annevk> because CORS cannot be used in a generic way for those other purposes
407. # [11:41] <othermaciej> why can't it?
408. # [11:41] <annevk> and CORS is intended to be a protocol that works q
409. # [11:41] <annevk> equally for all resources
410. # [11:41] <annevk> othermaciej, because most scenarios already allow cross-origin loads
411. # [11:41] <roc> that's because we currently have no way to impose same-origin restrictions for <img> loads etc
412. # [11:41] <othermaciej> couldn't CORS be used in principle to allow cross-origin images or videos to draw into a canvas without tainting?
413. # [11:42] <othermaciej> annevk: yeah, but CORS isn't what allows you to do the load, it's what allows you to read the data
414. # [11:42] <roc> if we did have a way to impose such restrictions, we could use CORS to lift it
415. # [11:42] <annevk> othermaciej, that's not another purpose, that's CORS' purpose
416. # [11:42] <annevk> othermaciej, preventing bandwidth theft through CORS just for fonts is what is being proposed here
417. # [11:42] <othermaciej> I don't say it was another purpose
418. # [11:42] <roc> the problem <img> is that no restrictions exist for CORS to apply to
419. # [11:42] <annevk> othermaciej, but that cannot be used for <video> or <img> in that way
420. # [11:43] <annevk> othermaciej, so it is completely tied to font loading
421. # [11:43] <annevk> and just makes CORS some kind of weird case there
422. # [11:43] <annevk> which imo is wrong
423. # [11:43] <roc> it's not a weird case
424. # [11:43] <roc> CORS can be used to lift same-origin restrictions where they exist
425. # [11:43] <othermaciej> if you wanted to limit <video> or <img> to same-origin-only for bandwidth protection purposes, you'd have to check Origin or Referer on the server side
426. # [11:43] <roc> they just happen to not exist at all for <video> and <img>
427. # [11:43] <othermaciej> I don't think the intent of applying same-origin policy to fonts is for bandwidth limits
428. # [11:43] <hsivonen> annevk: is this about a matter of principle, a technical problem or fear of a lawyer thinking that CORS is Effective?
429. # [11:43] <othermaciej> I think the intent is for half-assed pseudo-DRM
430. # [11:44] <othermaciej> at least I imagine that is why the font vendors want it
431. # [11:44] <annevk> hsivonen, technical consistency?
432. # [11:44] <annevk> hsivonen, haven't really tried to think about lawyers and DRM that much
433. # [11:44] <othermaciej> if font had a same-origin restriction then it would be reasonable for CORS to lift it
434. # [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk: seems technically consistent to use CORS to lift the Same Origin restriction whenever it is lifted for any reason
435. # [11:45] <othermaciej> I think the controversial part is whether fonts should have a same-origin restriction by default
436. # [11:45] <annevk> othermaciej, there's no reason for fonts to have same-origin restrictions
437. # [11:45] <othermaciej> I don't think anyone in WebKit-land has any interest in adding that restriction
438. # [11:45] <roc> right, that is the issue
439. # [11:46] <roc> CORS is a red herring
440. # [11:46] <othermaciej> but if the Trident and Gecko developers want to add such a restriction, then it seems reasonable to use CORS to selectively lift that restriction
441. # [11:46] <roc> thank you!
442. # [11:46] <annevk> hsivonen, we shouldn't have same-origin restrictions however for whatever reason
443. # [11:47] <annevk> hsivonen, if the problem is bandwidth theft then that problem also exists for <video>
444. # [11:47] <annevk> hsivonen, so the solution cannot be CORS imo
445. # [11:47] <othermaciej> I would be unhappy if whatever spec people are talking about required same-origin restrictions by default for fonts though
446. # [11:47] <roc> CORS is not the solution to bandwidth theft
447. # [11:47] <annevk> indeed it's not
448. # [11:47] <roc> the solution for bandwidth theft and certain other problems is a same-origin restriction
449. # [11:48] <othermaciej> WebKit-based browsers would probably never be conforming if that was the case
450. # [11:48] <roc> CORS lets authors opt out of that
451. # [11:48] <annevk> roc, that solution fails for a lot of scenarios so it's not a good solution
452. # [11:49] <roc> we can argue about that, but the fact remains that if we're going to have a same-origin restriction, it seems reasonable to use CORS to lift that restriction
453. # [11:49] <jgraham> Why isn't video same-origin only?
454. # [11:50] <roc> there was a big discussion about that
455. # [11:50] <annevk> because it doesn't make sense
456. # [11:50] <othermaciej> it would suck to not be able to embed video cross-site
457. # [11:50] <roc> that
458. # [11:50] <annevk> at least not with how <script>, <img>, etc. work
459. # [11:50] <jgraham> Yeah I remember a discussion
460. # [11:50] <roc> plus legacy reasons
461. # [11:50] <othermaciej> given that a key feature of the most popular video sites is embedding cross-site
462. # [11:50] <othermaciej> also, plugins can do it and <video> shouldn't be less capable than plugins
463. # [11:50] <annevk> anyway i need to get some food/sleep and make some more slides
464. # [11:50] <othermaciej> (e.g. QuickTime)
465. # [11:50] <jgraham> Yes, but if CORS is a solution for fonts it is a solution for video
466. # [11:51] <jgraham> but moreso given the realtive bandwidth requirments
467. # [11:51] <jgraham> *relative
468. # [11:51] <othermaciej> the proposed solution for fonts isn't so much CORS as it is imposing a same-origin restriction by default
469. # [11:51] <othermaciej> CORS just mitigates some of the downsides of that basic decision
470. # [11:51] <roc> right
471. # [11:52] <othermaciej> imposing a same-origin restriction by default wasn't really a viable option for video
472. # [11:52] <othermaciej> it seems less obviously broken for fonts, though I am not super enthusiastic about it myself
473. # [11:53] <jgraham> So the argument goes that fonts are fundamentally different from video because video is often cross origin whereas fonts are typically same origin?
474. # [11:53] <roc> I think it's reasonable to provide a convenient mechanism allowing authors to control who accesses their resources
475. # [11:53] <othermaciej> I think it's reasonable too
476. # [11:54] <othermaciej> the questions are: (a) should the default be no cross-origin access instead of full access as for most other resource types?
477. # [11:54] <annevk> they can just check the Origin header
478. # [11:54] <othermaciej> and: (b) should this mechanism be enforced client-side instead of server-side?
479. # [11:54] <annevk> or we could have a header that enforces same-origin loads
480. # [11:54] <roc> checking the Origin header is not convenient
481. # [11:54] <othermaciej> if you answer "no" to both, then nothing in particular needs to be added
482. # [11:54] <annevk> that would also work for all other types of resources
483. # [11:55] <jgraham> Would people have argued differently for video if CORS was already widely deployed?
484. # [11:55] <roc> checking on the client has better privacy properties
485. # [11:55] <othermaciej> using CORS to undo the restriction is about as convenient/inconvenient as checking Origin to add a restriction
486. # [11:55] <roc> jgraham: it would have helped a bit, but probably we'd have the same outcome
487. # [11:55] <roc> othermaciej: most authors don't need to undo the restriction
488. # [11:56] <othermaciej> which goes back to question (a)
489. # [11:56] <annevk> we could just have a header that enforces same origin loads
490. # [11:56] <jgraham> roc: In that case the argument for fonts seems very weak
491. # [11:56] <annevk> that could even be part of the CSRF work from Mozilla
492. # [11:56] <annevk> a header which people likely need to use anyway
493. # [11:56] <jgraham> s/fonts/making fonts same-origin by default/
494. # [11:57] <roc> annevk: a header on the document referencing the font?
495. # [11:57] <annevk> no on the font of course
496. # [11:57] <roc> ok
497. # [11:57] <roc> that's a question of what the default should be
498. # [11:57] <annevk> it's also a question of whether we want to solve the bandwidth problem two times or just once...
499. # [11:57] <roc> based on what the font vendors say, it sounds like they're going to require authors to control access
500. # [11:58] <annevk> and whether a different request policy for fonts really makes sense -- i think it doesn't
501. # [11:58] <roc> most of them
502. # [11:58] <roc> so authors will frequently want to same-origin restriction
503. # [11:58] <annevk> i personally think this whole WOFF thing is somewhat of a mistake
504. # [11:59] <annevk> before it's done Ubuntu and other systems will support it natively, I'm sure
505. # [11:59] <annevk> or simple web-based tools will be available
506. # [11:59] <roc> sure
507. # [11:59] <roc> that's all fine
508. # [11:59] <othermaciej> I think the vendor's legal requirement for a same-origin restriction should be handled between the vendor and their customer
509. # [11:59] <roc> othermaciej: it is
510. # [11:59] <othermaciej> no need to bring the browser into it
511. # [11:59] <annevk> anyway, gotta go, will read the logs later
512. # [12:00] <roc> the question is how easy is it going to be for the customer to follow their side of the license?
513. # [12:00] <roc> we can give them tools to make it super easy
514. # [12:01] <othermaciej> or we can create a business opportunity for Adobe Straming Font Server :-)
515. # [12:01] <roc> or we can force them to do server-side checking, with a number of downsides for convenience, privacy and robustness (firewalls stripping headers)
516. # [12:02] <zcorpan> so should we add a header Restrict-Load-To: http://example.org
517. # [12:02] <zcorpan> which would work for everything (fonts, images, videos, html)
518. # [12:02] <othermaciej> server-side checking would be better if the motive was actually preventing bandwidth waste
519. # [12:03] <jgraham> Embedding laws and licensing agreements in code is a bit scary. Apart from anything else laws and licenses change but required behaviour on the web tends to live on
520. # [12:03] <othermaciej> since by the time the client checks, your bandwidth has already been wasted
521. # [12:03] <roc> "embedding laws and licensing agreements in code" is totally not happening here ... that's the DRM bogeyman
522. # [12:04] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@fnttkyo001028.tkyo.fnt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
523. # [12:04] <roc> othermaciej: the point is that site authors aren't going to link to a font cross-site if that load isn't actually going to work
524. # [12:04] <roc> unless they just want to maliciously eat your bandwidth to no useful purpose
525. # [12:04] <othermaciej> roc: really, authors aren't going to do strange things with no visible effect and then leave that in their production site?
526. # [12:04] <jgraham> Well you are justifying inconsistencies in the platform because they help people to conform to licensing agreements circa 2010
527. # [12:04] <jgraham> +typical
528. # [12:05] <othermaciej> that would make my job a lot easier if it was true!
529. # [12:06] <roc> othermaciej: ok, there'll be a little of that
530. # [12:06] <othermaciej> you are correct that it would reduce the motive for bandwidth waste somewhat, though not the opportunity
531. # [12:06] <roc> jgraham: we have same-origin restrictions for XHRs. I don't see having them for fonts as a wild innovation
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533. # [12:07] <jgraham> roc: For XHR is is needed for security
534. # [12:07] <roc> sure, so?
535. # [12:07] <jgraham> So that is a clear reason for the difference
536. # [12:07] <roc> it's still true that we have different classes of loads
537. # [12:08] <jgraham> The font thing seems to be predicated on the idea that fonts are somehow fundamentally different from an IP point of view compared to images or video
538. # [12:08] <jgraham> or text
539. # [12:08] <roc> there are a different set of tradeoffs
540. # [12:08] <hsivonen> Restrict-Load-To would have bad effects if Opera supported it before IE
541. # [12:08] <roc> images are totally constrained by legacy issues
542. # [12:09] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
543. # [12:09] <roc> video is constrained by legacy issues and the "viral video" feature
544. # [12:09] <jgraham> Right, if we were designing the platform from scratch we would do it differently
545. # [12:10] <hsivonen> but server refusing to serve if the request didn't have the right Origin header would have better game theoretica characteristics to motivate UA implementation
546. # [12:10] <roc> if those issues didn't exist, would it be a good idea to have a default-same origin restriction for images and video? I think so, although that world's so counter-factual I'd have to think harder than I have
547. # [12:10] <othermaciej> it does seem to me like many font deployments won't really want to share cross-origin, on the other hand, I could imagine big sites wanting to serve their fonts off of Akamai
548. # [12:11] <othermaciej> or I could imagine the existence of central type hosting sites like TypeKit
549. # [12:11] <othermaciej> or of sites that have a separate domain for large static resources in general, or which have multiple subdomains
550. # [12:11] <roc> I can tell you that in practice when we raised the idea of same-origin restrictions for <video> there were howls of protest from authors and, well, just about everyone
551. # [12:11] <hsivonen> typekit's core feature is addressing complications
552. # [12:11] <roc> whereas for fonts, we have had no protest whatsoever
553. # [12:12] <jgraham> roc: Because people aren't expecting Youtube for fonts
554. # [12:12] <hsivonen> the more complications there are, the more attractive typekit is
555. # [12:12] <roc> jgraham: well, there you go
556. # [12:12] <othermaciej> those are the things that would get harder in exchange for making other things easier
557. # [12:12] <jgraham> roc: It doesn't mean it won't happen
558. # [12:13] <roc> well, we're waiting
559. # [12:13] <jgraham> It's just that people's frame of reference is different
560. # [12:13] <othermaciej> making a decent-quality font is hard
561. # [12:13] <roc> it's been a couple of years now
562. # [12:13] <Philip`> jgraham: About the IP point of view, lots of commercially-produced video makes use of secure Flash streaming etc to prevent it being used in unauthorised ways, but there's also a lot of free/amateur video like most stuff on YouTube where people are happy to use <video>, so there's still a substantial use case for the latter
563. # [12:13] <othermaciej> there are lots of freely redistributable fonts out there, mostly they are crappy
564. # [12:13] <othermaciej> as with video, the most popular way to distribute fonts currently is via Flash
565. # [12:13] <Philip`> jgraham: and there's lots of commercially-produced fonts which want similar protection, but very few decent free/amateur fonts, so the focus is much more heavily on the former
566. # [12:14] <Philip`> jgraham: so in both cases there's two categories of difference importances and different technological solutions for each
567. # [12:14] <gsnedders> zcorpan: We'd also have to both be header elements
568. # [12:14] <roc> one of the nice things about making same-origin restriction the default is that cross-origin links tend to have many sites linking to a few repositories instead of a few sites linking to many repositories
569. # [12:15] <zcorpan> gsnedders: yes. aren't you?
570. # [12:15] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I feel more like generic flow content.
571. # [12:16] <roc> so a default same-origin restriction means you need to add Access-Control-Allow-Origin:* to a few repositories rather than add some other header to a lot of sites
572. # [12:16] <zcorpan> gsnedders: any specific element you feel identifies you?
573. # [12:17] <gsnedders> zcorpan: the div element.
574. # [12:17] <gsnedders> I feel divisive, like that.
575. # [12:17] <zcorpan> wow that's like the most boring element
576. # [12:17] <othermaciej> wait, when did this become a game of "who is which element"?
577. # [12:18] <gsnedders> othermaciej: When we got bored of writting assembly to generate C++ :)
578. # [12:18] <gsnedders> *writing
579. # [12:18] <othermaciej> how could you ever get bored of that?
580. # [12:18] <gsnedders> I dunno. I think Ollie gets bored enough of doing it the sane way round.
581. # [12:18] <zcorpan> it's like that if you're a div element
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583. # [12:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: I suggest writing assembly code that generates C++ code that (when compiled and executed) generates the original assembly code
584. # [12:19] <jgraham> "This is not a game of who the fuck are you"
585. # [12:20] <zcorpan> "knock knock" "who's there?" "fuck you"
586. # [12:20] <gsnedders> jgraham's bullying me into saying things on IRC.
587. # [12:21] <gsnedders> I am not going to give into bullying again, after having multiple people force-feed me drink on Saturday
588. # [12:23] <jgraham> At least one of them was force feeding you water
589. # [12:24] * jgraham feels he should give the impression that not everyone gsnedders knows is entirely irresponsible
590. # [12:24] <jgraham> (because that would reflect badly on gsnedders' ability to chose friends)
591. # [12:24] * Joins: othermaciej_ (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
592. # [12:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Actually, I was asking him to get me more water, multiple times
593. # [12:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: He was just kind enough to give me it and not give me vodka instead.
594. # [12:25] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
595. # [12:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: Still, I'll refrain from mentioning for your sake your girlfriend dragging me off to dance with her with both of us only just standing up
596. # [12:27] <gsnedders> Oh, sorry.
597. # [12:27] * jgraham refrains from mentioning that that's not really true
598. # [12:28] <gsnedders> Oh, it is…
599. # [12:29] <jgraham> No really you were both standing up very well. Her slightly moreso
600. # [12:29] <gsnedders> Yes, her moreso, certainly.
601. # [12:29] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
602. # [12:29] <gsnedders> But the last time I didn't dance long, as moving was challenging.
603. # [12:29] <gsnedders> Standing still I could manage.
604. # [12:30] <jgraham> Actually you were making more of a fuss about standing still. Whenever you actually walked anywhere you were quite fine
605. # [12:31] <gsnedders> I almost fell over several times walking home
606. # [12:32] <jgraham> Yeah but I do that when I'm sober
607. # [12:32] <gsnedders> Or maybe you're just permanently stoned from all the medication you're on.
608. # [12:32] <jgraham> No
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610. # [12:33] <gsnedders> I guess I had enough beer to fulfill annevk's request that I should have some beer for him.
611. # [12:57] <gsnedders> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%280.5%2Ax%5E2%2By%5E2-1%29%5E3-x%5E2%2Ay%5E3%3D0
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630. # [14:03] * annevk wonders why people are still using slideshare.net
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632. # [14:04] <annevk> surely there's a better way to show a few images
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634. # [14:04] <annevk> i.e. one that doesn't require me to install Flash
635. # [14:04] <annevk> (which I won't)
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642. # [14:13] <Philip`> annevk: The better way to show slides is PDF
643. # [14:14] * Philip` generally dislikes HTML slides because the layout never looks quite right and they always have weird navigation controls
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646. # [14:15] <webben> I like using Slidy personally.
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648. # [14:15] <webben> I tried using Keynote and found it unusable.
649. # [14:16] <webben> (trying to format code examples - especially horrible)
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673. # [16:19] <remysharp> Q: is there any time that the Web Messaging API would use postMessage without it going via an iframe?
674. # [16:21] <gsnedders> remysharp: A window opened through window.open, maybe?
675. # [16:21] <remysharp> gsnedders: cheers - that's what I was after.
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693. # [17:27] <annevk> remysharp-away, also Web Workers
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726. # [18:32] <magcius> Is this a bug? The scrollbar appears in http://magcius.mecheye.net/canvasbug.html I looked into it, and a linebreak textnode is somehow being added, causing the html tag's scrollHeight to be 4px larger. It happens in all major browsers, so that's why I'm asking here.
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736. # [18:50] <divya> magcius: use display:block on canvas in your css.
737. # [18:50] <magcius> divya: it's not display: block; already?
738. # [18:50] <divya> magcius: Don't think it is so by default.
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740. # [18:51] <Philip`> magcius: Use html{line-height:0}
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743. # [18:52] <magcius> Philip`: ah. I used html {margin-bottom: -1em;}
744. # [18:53] <remysharp> Q: Web Workers - the spec suggests that a worker has access to Web SQL databases
745. # [18:53] <remysharp> but none of the browsers that have workers and databases seemed to have implemented this
746. # [18:53] <remysharp> is this something that /should/ be in a worker, or am I missing something?
747. # [18:54] <ap> remysharp: this is being actively worked on for WebKit
748. # [18:54] <remysharp> ap: cheers, so it's just something that's pending implementation
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750. # [18:55] <Philip`> magcius: Looks like either canvas{display:block} or html{line-height:0} are the right solutions, since <canvas> is normally display:inline the same as <img> and so it has the layout of a line of text
751. # [18:55] <magcius> Philip`: alright
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785. # [20:20] <Dashiva> Surely whether you're writing a polyglot document or not should be handled by editor configuration
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796. # [20:33] <Matjas_> Which ARIA roles should be used when faking a HTML5 <details> element?
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802. # [20:43] <webben> Matjas_: Hmm. Does it require ARIA?
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804. # [20:44] <Matjas_> webben: Once <details> is natively supported, I don't think so, but for now (while we're still stuck using fallbacks) I'd say some ARIA wouldn't hurt
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806. # [20:45] <webben> Matjas_: When you say faking it - do you mean using the HTML5 markup and adding behavior with JS?
807. # [20:45] <Matjas_> webben: Yes. Like this: http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/html5-details-jquery (also see Shelley Powers’s comment, suggesting to add ARIA: http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/html5-details-jquery#comment-6)
808. # [20:46] <divya> Matjas_: Slide 65 on this: http://www.slideshare.net/AaronGustafson/why-aria-devchatt-2010 seems to discuss ARIA for tabbed interfaces, I am guessing you could investigate some of the roles covered there.
809. # [20:47] <Matjas_> divya: Thanks!
810. # [20:47] <webben> But it's not tabbed?
811. # [20:47] <webben> Matjas_: Or is it tabbed?
812. # [20:48] <Matjas_> webben: Depends what you mean by ‘tabbed’
813. # [20:48] <Matjas_> webben: There’s a demo here: http://mathiasbynens.be/demo/html5-details-jquery What do you think?
814. # [20:48] <webben> Matjas_: Mmm I wouldn't really say that's a list of tabs.
815. # [20:49] <webben> I don't think there are ARIA roles that map perfectly onto details and summary.
816. # [20:49] <Matjas_> Agreed
817. # [20:49] <Matjas_> Perhaps aria-hidden="false" could be used
818. # [20:49] <Matjas_> Question mark?
819. # [20:50] <webben> Matjas_: In your JS implementation, should you not move focus to the start of the content when you open the details?
820. # [20:50] <webben> Matjas_: I agree aria-hidden="true" should be applied to the contents in the closed state.
821. # [20:50] <divya> Matjas_: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-implementation-20091215/#mapping_role see the table for the huge list of roles you can choose from :/
822. # [20:51] <Matjas_> webben: Why? I’m focusing the <summary> element so that when tab is pressed, it jumps to the next 'tabbable' element
823. # [20:51] <webben> slightly newer at http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#role_definitions
824. # [20:51] <webben> Matjas_: Let's say I'm using a screen reader. I activate the summary element ... somehow (we can come back to that), how do I know what's changed?
825. # [20:52] <Matjas_> webben: Hmm, I see your point
826. # [20:52] <Matjas_> divya: Thanks again!
827. # [20:54] <webben> Matjas_: With regards to activation, I guess give the summary element a role of "button" and a property of "aria-pressed".
828. # [20:54] <webben> Matjas_: Though given you're faking the lot with JS, you could just as well insert an actual button element.
829. # [20:54] <webben> and it will work with more UAs
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832. # [20:55] <webben> Matjas_: you could use aria-owns/aria-controls to indicate the relationship between the button and the content.
833. # [20:56] <Matjas_> webben: I'm trying to keep DOM manipulations to a minimum. JS makes the summary element clickable, regardless of wether the browser understands it correctly. Would it really be beneficial to replace it with an actual button?
834. # [20:56] <divya> webben: Would the role of "note" be not sorta similar to what <details> semantically stands for? http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#note
835. # [20:57] <webben> divya: Not necessarily.
836. # [20:57] <webben> I think that's a bit closer to <aside> really.
837. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Well, what are the default ARIA semantics of <details> in HTML5?
838. # [20:57] <webben> Matjas_: It would be beneficial in the sense that there's plenty of deployed software which can't make head or tail of ARIA or HTML5.
839. # [20:58] <divya> "The details element represents a disclosure widget from which the user can obtain additional information or controls." says http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html#the-details-element
840. # [20:59] <Matjas_> webben: Yeah, but that's what my JS is for. Or are you talking about the case where JS is not available?
841. # [20:59] <webben> Matjas_: Let's say I focus the summary in a pre-ARIA UA+screenreader. Adding role=button won't make my screenreader read it as a button.
842. # [21:00] <Matjas_> webben: I see
843. # [21:00] <webben> Matjas_: Thinking about your actual example, I wonder if it's best represented as some sort of ARIA tree - that doesn't apply to all instances of details though.
844. # [21:01] <webben> Matjas_: In fact, I'm pretty sure your particular example is precisely a tree
845. # [21:01] <webben> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#tree
846. # [21:01] <webben> "A type of list that may contain sub-level nested groups that can be collapsed and expanded."
847. # [21:01] <webben> Matjas_: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/states_and_properties#aria-expanded might be generalizable for use outside of trees too.
848. # [21:02] <webben> hmm section supports aria-expanded for example: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#section
849. # [21:03] <webben> AryehGregor: Can't see any at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-(aria)
850. # [21:03] <webben> (assuming that's the place to look)
851. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Then my guess is ARIA doesn't have anything with equivalent semantics.
852. # [21:04] <Matjas_> Should aria-expanded be used as an attribute to the details element, or to the summary element?
853. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> If it does, then the spec is buggy, I assume.
854. # [21:05] <webben> Matjas_: That's not clear to me from http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/states_and_properties#aria-expanded .
855. # [21:05] <Matjas_> webben: Yeah, me neither :p
856. # [21:05] <webben> Matjas_: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-primer/#exampletree should be helpful.
857. # [21:06] <webben> ah that answers the question in fact
858. # [21:06] <webben> <li role="treeitem" aria-expanded="false">Cats
859. # [21:06] <webben> Matjas_: should be details that has aria-expanded
860. # [21:06] <Matjas_> webben: Thanks
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863. # [21:10] <webben> Matjas_: http://pastie.org/936045 ... maybe
864. # [21:10] <webben> Matjas_: What worries me about that is I don't see anything to make it clear that pressing the button will expand the section.
865. # [21:16] <webben> Matjas_: Another approach might be to look at native desktop UI implementations of details-like widgets and see what accessibility roles and properties they use, then map those back to aria.
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869. # [21:20] * webben can't find an example on OS X.
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873. # [21:26] <webben> ah ... Details disclosure in Password prompt is an example.
874. # [21:27] <webben> It's interesting - the actual control in that case is the disclosure triangle - which is either collapsed or expanded.
875. # [21:29] <Matjas_> webben: Isn’t http://img.riddle.pl/_disclosure-osx-20100425-212835.png a good example of details-like usage as well?
876. # [21:32] <webben> Matjas_: I think that's a tree example.
877. # [21:32] <webben> Matjas_: (In classic HTML5 that would have been a datagrid I think)
878. # [21:33] <webben> Matjas_: But could be implemented as a list of details elements I guess, then annotated as an ARIA tree.
879. # [21:33] <webben> Matjas_: http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/XHIGControls.html "Disclosure Triangles"
880. # [21:33] <webben> is the control I'm thinking of
881. # [21:34] <webben> Looks like OS X has a distinct Accessibility Role for the little triangle AXDisclosureTriangle.
882. # [21:34] <webben> Possibly "Disclosure Buttons" is also details-like
883. # [21:35] <webben> fwiw based on the human guidelines, AXDisclosureTriangles are used in trees ("hierarchical list[s]")
884. # [21:37] <webben> http://tinyurl.com/3yyl5gh : spec for AXDisclosureTriangle
885. # [21:41] <webben> Matjas_: Inspecting the Finder with the Accessibility Inspector, those arrows are also Disclosure Triangles exposing AXDisclosureTriangle.
886. # [21:42] <Matjas_> webben: Wow, you should really reply to riddle’s comment: http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/html5-details-jquery#comment-1
887. # [21:43] <webben> Similar HIG from MS: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511487.aspx
888. # [21:45] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: yo. had you heard anything from ms on their <video> fallback behavior?
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891. # [21:47] <webben> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee671276(v=VS.85).aspx ExpandCollapse pattern - I guess that's the UI Automation equivalent
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945. # Session Close: Tue Apr 27 00:00:00 2010

The end :)