/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 27 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [01:30] <Hixie> anyone registered on the doom9 forums?
  24. # [01:32] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  25. # [01:32] <Hixie> i want to contact zuggy, but the forum requires that i have been a member for 5 days
  26. # [01:33] <kinetik> Hixie: i've got an account there
  27. # [01:35] <Hixie> can you send a privmsg to zuggy saying that we're considering using SRT as the basis for a subtitle format for the web and that ian@hixie.ch would like to discuss the matter with him?
  28. # [01:35] <Hixie> i'd love his opinions on some ideas i have
  29. # [01:35] <Hixie> e.g. whether he would rather we didn't define things, or if he wants to be involved, or if he's happy for us to fork it, or whatever
  30. # [01:37] <kinetik> Hixie: this one? http://forum.doom9.org/member.php?u=11440
  31. # [01:37] <Hixie> yeah
  32. # [01:37] <kinetik> Last Activity: 16th April 2007 16:21
  33. # [01:37] <Hixie> hm
  34. # [01:38] <Hixie> bummer
  35. # [01:38] <kinetik> I can try sending a message anyway, if you like.
  36. # [01:38] <Hixie> sure
  37. # [01:38] <Hixie> try sending it to http://forum.doom9.org/member.php?u=41898 also, he's been active more recently
  38. # [01:39] <Hixie> he's the other subrip dev
  39. # [01:39] <Hixie> as far as i can tell
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  41. # [01:39] <Hixie> hmm, it does kind of look like SubRip is dead
  42. # [01:40] <Hixie> i wonder who else we should contact
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  44. # [01:40] <Hixie> kinetik: thanks, btw
  45. # [01:40] <Hixie> much appreciated
  46. # [01:46] <kinetik> Hixie: sent something to both of them
  47. # [01:47] <Hixie> thanks!
  48. # [01:56] * Dashiva wonders if some other Jonas will find himself with a bunch of enemies in the morning
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  50. # [02:02] <Philip`> Dashiva: Maybe the Jonas Brothers?
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  55. # [02:18] <JonathanNeal> heyo
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  63. # [03:07] <nessy> good thinking, Hixie about the SubRip guys!
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  66. # [03:29] <Hixie> how do i include the string "<br/>" in a wiki page without it becoming a line break? (AryehGregor?)
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  68. # [03:31] <Hixie> i went with &lt;br/>
  69. # [03:31] <Hixie> seems to work
  70. # [03:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: &lt;br/>
  71. # [03:31] * ojan is now known as ojan_away
  72. # [03:31] <othermaciej> you have to escape < for certain tags that the wiki would otherwise recognize and spit back verbatim
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  114. # [05:58] <Aleoss> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Faleoss.ath.cx%2Fcss%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&ss=1&outline=1&group=0&No200=1&verbose=1&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.767
  115. # [05:59] <Aleoss> Should I disregard the error there or should I be placing <nav> outside of the <pre>?
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  148. # [08:10] <zcorpan> wait what? Why the url change?
  149. # [08:11] <annevk2> sicking
  150. # [08:11] * annevk2 is now known as annevk
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  152. # [08:11] <annevk> see public-webapps responseBlob subthread
  153. # [08:11] <zcorpan> pointer?
  154. # [08:11] <annevk> so ahead of you
  155. # [08:11] <annevk> :p
  156. # [08:14] <zcorpan> hrm
  157. # [08:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: can you change it back if i say opera has implemented URL and i've written test cases using URL? :)
  158. # [08:15] <annevk> WebKit also has EventSource.URL shipped I think
  159. # [08:15] <annevk> is that all?
  160. # [08:17] <annevk> hmm, my inbox has grown from ~400 to ~900
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  166. # [08:43] <zcorpan> window.EventSource is undefined for me in chrome
  167. # [08:50] <annevk> hmm
  168. # [08:50] <annevk> indeed
  169. # [08:52] <annevk> so how can https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14392#c7 be explained?
  170. # [08:53] <annevk> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14997 is marked fixed
  171. # [08:54] <annevk> maybe Chrome is based on a much older version of WebKit?
  172. # [08:54] <annevk> this was landed last August...
  173. # [08:55] <othermaciej> annevk: it's an optional feature - maybe they have the flag off
  174. # [08:55] <zcorpan> othermaciej: is EventSource shipped in safari?
  175. # [08:56] <othermaciej> zcorpan: it's not in Safari 4.0.5 afaict
  176. # [08:56] <annevk> ooh: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33695
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  178. # [08:56] <othermaciej> or in trunk
  179. # [08:56] <othermaciej> I wonder if it's just disabled by default?
  180. # [08:56] <annevk> I saw Web developers talking about it... hmm
  181. # [08:56] <othermaciej> oh wait
  182. # [08:56] <othermaciej> it does exist in WebKit trunk
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  185. # [08:57] <othermaciej> so it will quite likely be in the next Safari
  186. # [08:57] <othermaciej> good ol' [object EventSourceContructor]
  187. # [08:57] <zcorpan> it has an attribute called "URL", yes?
  188. # [08:59] <othermaciej> how do I construct an EventSource again?
  189. # [08:59] <othermaciej> or I guess I can check the IDL
  190. # [08:59] <zcorpan> you could check "URL" in EventSource.prototype
  191. # [08:59] <annevk> othermaciej, new EventSource("url")
  192. # [09:00] <othermaciej> readonly attribute DOMString URL;
  193. # [09:00] <othermaciej> says the IDL
  194. # [09:00] <zcorpan> thanks
  195. # [09:00] <zcorpan> othermaciej: what's your opinion on the name change?
  196. # [09:00] <annevk> I guess that ought to be changed if we are going with sicking's URL -> url
  197. # [09:00] <annevk> grmbl
  198. # [09:00] * zcorpan thinks it should be changed back to URL
  199. # [09:01] <annevk> he does have a point that Document.URL is somewhat archaic, but still
  200. # [09:01] <zcorpan> it's more used than most other attributes on HTMLDocument
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  202. # [09:01] <othermaciej> well, it hasn't shipped yet apparently
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  204. # [09:02] <othermaciej> is there consensus to change it?
  205. # [09:02] <othermaciej> would rather get it over with soon
  206. # [09:02] <othermaciej> are there instances of lowercase "url" in the Web platform?
  207. # [09:02] <zcorpan> i don't see consensus; sicking asked for it to be changed, Hixie changed it
  208. # [09:02] <zcorpan> i think it should be called URL
  209. # [09:03] <zcorpan> othermaciej: in css url()
  210. # [09:03] <zcorpan> othermaciej: <input type="url"> although that is case insensitive
  211. # [09:04] <annevk> css url() is even more case-insensitive
  212. # [09:04] <othermaciej> what about in APIs?./dom/Document.idl: readonly attribute DOMString URL;
  213. # [09:04] <zcorpan> <meta http-equiv="refresh" content="5; URL=..."> although that's also case insensitive (mostly written in uppercase i think)
  214. # [09:04] <othermaciej> ./websockets/WebSocket.idl: readonly attribute DOMString URL;
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  216. # [09:04] <annevk> yeah, both WebSocket and EventSource are affected
  217. # [09:04] <othermaciej> ./html/HTMLAnchorElement.idl: readonly attribute URL absoluteLinkURL; (is that a standard or some weird webkit extension?)
  218. # [09:05] <jgraham> Uppercase for an attribute name is kinda ugly
  219. # [09:05] <jgraham> Unless it is just a constant
  220. # [09:06] <zcorpan> othermaciej: seems like a weird extension
  221. # [09:06] <zcorpan> jgraham: sure it's ugly, but i'd rather have attributes with the same name use the same case everywhere
  222. # [09:07] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I think it might not be exposed to JS
  223. # [09:07] <othermaciej> yeah, it's ObjC-only
  224. # [09:07] <othermaciej> kinda weird, as it seems to duplicate href
  225. # [09:07] <othermaciej> maybe it dates back to when our <a>.href was buggy
  226. # [09:09] * zcorpan sends his email asking for it to be changed back
  227. # [09:10] <annevk> absoluteLinkURL sounds like WebKit-only
  228. # [09:10] <annevk> but I've thought that before :/
  229. # [09:10] <othermaciej> it's only in our Objective-C bindings so not relevant to the Web
  230. # [09:10] <othermaciej> has Chrome shipped WebSocket yet?
  231. # [09:11] <zcorpan> othermaciej: yeah, but it doesn't seem to have .URL
  232. # [09:11] <othermaciej> weird
  233. # [09:11] <othermaciej> is that a new addition?
  234. # [09:11] <othermaciej> oh, if you are checking based on WebSocket.prototype I expect that won't work
  235. # [09:11] <othermaciej> at least, not if V8 bindings match how JavaScriptCore does it
  236. # [09:12] <zcorpan> oh wait it does have URL
  237. # [09:12] <othermaciej> we don't put DOM getters and setters on the prototype they are magical
  238. # [09:12] <zcorpan> yeah i was checking the prototype first
  239. # [09:13] <zcorpan> that seems like a bug, they should be on the prototype, right?
  240. # [09:16] <othermaciej> it doesn't match what Mozilla does
  241. # [09:16] <othermaciej> hopefully Web IDL will decide which way is correct
  242. # [09:17] <othermaciej> Moz behavior is potentially more convenient but on the other hand it may be less efficient
  243. # [09:17] <zcorpan> is someone working on webidl?
  244. # [09:17] <othermaciej> weinig is working on it a little, ever so slowly
  245. # [09:17] <othermaciej> I need to nag him again
  246. # [09:17] <zcorpan> ok
  247. # [09:17] <othermaciej> now that the WebKit2 code drop is finished
  248. # [09:18] <othermaciej> he did do a couple of edits - trying to get it to be based on ES5 instead of ES3
  249. # [09:18] <zcorpan> i'd like webidl to decide about what to do with too few arguments to constructors and methods
  250. # [09:20] <othermaciej> that would be good too
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  269. # [09:54] <asmodai> hsivonen: wow, might have found the page that was causing issues
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  273. # [10:14] <asmodai> It seems http://site.icu-project.org/ is causing those leaks for me. At least the very fast increasing leaks. (I still see some minor leakage, but I also occasionally see the garbage collection kick in).
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  281. # [10:43] <hsivonen> asmodai: btw, are you running 3.6.x with html5.enable=true?
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  283. # [10:45] <hsivonen> hmm. are all the scripts on that page just for analytics?
  284. # [10:47] <asmodai> hsivonen: Yes I am
  285. # [10:47] <asmodai> Ah, should mention that I guess
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  287. # [10:47] <hsivonen> asmodai: I recommend not doing that.
  288. # [10:48] <hsivonen> asmodai: if you want to run with html5.enable=true, it's much better to use a trunk nightly
  289. # [10:48] <hsivonen> and if you want to run 3.6.x, it's much better not to run with html5.enable=true
  290. # [10:48] <asmodai> How so?
  291. # [10:49] <hsivonen> asmodai: I'm sorry I didn't try more forcefully to get html5.enable removed from the 3.6 branch
  292. # [10:49] <asmodai> hsivonen: Hahaha
  293. # [10:49] <hsivonen> asmodai: the snapshot of the HTML5 parser on the 3.6 branch is from June last year just when it was deemed worthy to *start* testing it
  294. # [10:49] <asmodai> no no, I'm happy with it to test the MathML :P
  295. # [10:50] <hsivonen> after that, all the problems that have been found and fixed are unfixed on the 3.6 branch
  296. # [10:50] <asmodai> :(
  297. # [10:51] <hsivonen> asmodai: could you, please, test if the leak goes away if you disable the HTML5 parser?
  298. # [10:51] <asmodai> sure, gimme a moment
  299. # [10:51] <asmodai> hsivonen: do I need to restart the entire browser for that toggle to go through?
  300. # [10:52] <asmodai> or would simply reloading that page with the toggle off be enough?
  301. # [10:53] <hsivonen> asmodai: reload is enough
  302. # [10:53] <asmodai> ok
  303. # [10:53] <asmodai> on an aside
  304. # [10:54] <asmodai> annevk: saw http://www.internetconsultatie.nl/nrfimplementatie ?
  305. # [10:54] <asmodai> Dutch gov asking for input on the cookie restriction law(s)
  306. # [10:55] <hsivonen> asmodai: do the laws cover browser fingerprinting?
  307. # [10:55] <asmodai> hsivonen: mmm, good question
  308. # [10:56] <asmodai> For all I know this is that follow through on the EU directive on banning third party cookies from auto accept.
  309. # [10:56] <asmodai> ok, opened that site with html5 enable to true and I see the memory increase as expected.
  310. # [10:57] <asmodai> Now turning it off and reloading
  311. # [10:59] <asmodai> hsivonen: Seems to stabilize and I can even observe the garbage collection kick in... hovering around 576 MB now.
  312. # [11:00] <asmodai> hsivonen: clear cut case of icu-project.org and html5.enable=true on 3.6.4 not jiving well?
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  315. # [11:05] <annevk> asmodai, looking
  316. # [11:06] <annevk> asmodai, hmm, I can't tell whether it affects sites or browsers
  317. # [11:06] <annevk> asmodai, if sites I suppose that makes sense
  318. # [11:06] <annevk> asmodai, as long as they clearly scope it in some way I guess
  319. # [11:07] <asmodai> annevk: it's a continuation of http://tweakers.net/nieuws/66906/cookies-mogen-volgend-jaar-alleen-na-toestemming-internetter.html
  320. # [11:09] <asmodai> Directive 2009/136/EC generally requires end-user consent to the storing of information-such as the piece of software known as a "cookie"-on the user's computer. Accessing stored cookie data-the raison d'être of a cookie-would also require consent. Further, a user's consent would be valid only if he or she is "provided . . . clear and comprehensive information" concerning the cookie's use.
  321. # [11:10] <asmodai> So it would mean changes to browser defaults methinks.
  322. # [11:10] <jgraham> Not possible
  323. # [11:10] <annevk> we tried something like that
  324. # [11:10] <jgraham> Breaks the web
  325. # [11:10] <annevk> indeed
  326. # [11:10] <annevk> also, users don't understand cookies
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  328. # [11:12] <asmodai> hey, I don't invent it ;)
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  330. # [11:13] <annevk> shoot the messenger, no?
  331. # [11:14] * asmodai is shot
  332. # [11:17] <asmodai> hsivonen: Updated the ticket https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=561714 with the information.
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  385. # [15:34] <mut> hey, I have an image on canvas, and i want to save it to the server, any way of doing that?
  386. # [15:35] <annevk> xhr.send(canvas.toDataURL())
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  388. # [15:35] <annevk> or you could serialize an ImageData object somehow and transmit that
  389. # [15:35] <mut> ok
  390. # [15:35] <mut> ill take a look at that
  391. # [15:36] <mut> thanks
  392. # [15:36] <mut> errrm
  393. # [15:36] <mut> yea thanks :)
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  395. # [15:45] <annevk> "Facebook uses Decentralized Extensibility to centralize the Web around Facebook." heh, brilliant quote
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  399. # [15:56] <jgraham> I want that on my wall
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  403. # [16:05] <hsivonen> annevk: it seems it's my most retweeted tweet so far
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  405. # [16:06] <Lachy> Philip`, yt?
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  407. # [16:08] <Philip`> Lachy: Sort of
  408. # [16:09] <Lachy> Philip`, just wanted to check with you about whether or not this test is correct, since you know more about canvas than I do. http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/canvas/getContext/2d/drawImage/003.htm
  409. # [16:09] <Lachy> I don't get why it's expecting an exception to be thrown for that one
  410. # [16:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: speaking of walls: did the idea of asking Randall Munroe to draw the HTML5 tokenizer state transition graph go anywhere?
  411. # [16:11] <Philip`> Lachy: Looks like the image's 'complete' attribute would be false, which used to make drawImage throw an error but should now cause it to be silently ignored
  412. # [16:11] <Philip`> (so the test is currently incorrect)
  413. # [16:12] <Lachy> (new Image()).complete returns true in every browser though
  414. # [16:12] <Lachy> so I guess all browsers are wrong about that
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  416. # [16:12] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#dom-img-complete indicates it should be false, I believe
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  418. # [16:13] <Philip`> (I don't know if the spec is correct)
  419. # [16:13] <Lachy> ok. So that's a bug in opera for image.complete and an invalid test.
  420. # [16:13] <Lachy> the spec doesn't agree with implementations, but it makes more sense than saying an image is complete, even though it has no src
  421. # [16:14] <Philip`> You could interpret it instead as saying the image downloading/decoding is complete
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  423. # [16:15] <Philip`> and an image with no src isn't still in the middle of the downloading/decoding process, so that process is not incomplete
  424. # [16:15] <Lachy> but it hasn't actually completed anything
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  426. # [16:15] <Lachy> and that means setting a src attribute should make set it to false
  427. # [16:16] <Lachy> until it loaded the image again
  428. # [16:16] <Philip`> It's completed the "complete = false; if (there is a src) { ... do a long slow download and decode ... }; complete = true" process
  429. # [16:17] <Philip`> but then you have to deal with images that are complete but still don't have any image data
  430. # [16:17] <Philip`> I don't think it's particularly illogical either way, but the spec's current definition seems more helpful
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  434. # [16:20] <Lachy> I guess that makes the spec ambiguous if it can be interpreted either way.
  435. # [16:20] <Lachy> I'll send mail about that later.
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  437. # [16:27] <Philip`> Oh, I don't think the spec is ambiguous
  438. # [16:28] <Philip`> I just think the attribute name "complete" is ambiguous so it could defined in different ways that wouldn't seem particularly wrong
  439. # [16:28] <Philip`> s/could/could be/
  440. # [16:29] <Philip`> and the current spec has chosen one definition which seems reasonably clear (though maybe people could argue it should make a different choice to better match current implementations)
  441. # [16:37] <JonathanNeal> mornin'
  442. # [16:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: No
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  448. # [17:21] <annevk> bit of a shame that everyone implements the new sectioning elements without implementing the corresponding h1 styling rules
  449. # [17:22] <annevk> you'd think at least someone in either Gecko or WebKit would have picked up on that
  450. # [17:23] <JonathanNeal> Whatcha guys think of this? http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html-templates/ Suggetions, criticism?
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  452. # [17:25] <annevk> guess I'll add a comment to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=559284 tomorrow or so when I find my credentials
  453. # [17:25] <annevk> time to read/sleep
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  460. # [17:43] <Lachy> I wonder if it's too late to start rolling out those default styles for h1 elements, given the early adopters.
  461. # [17:44] <Lachy> hopefully not, since most sites will apply font size styles in author stylesheets anyway
  462. # [17:46] <JonathanNeal> Which styles are those?
  463. # [17:47] <Lachy> h1 is supposed to have it's font size adjusted based on the level it represents according to the sectioning element nesting
  464. # [17:48] <JonathanNeal> How did you guys end up using selectors for that? :section(1) or something?
  465. # [17:48] <Lachy> we don't have selectors like that for it yet.
  466. # [17:49] <Lachy> but there have been some ideas for a :heading(n) selector that will match a heading based on it's level
  467. # [17:49] <JonathanNeal> Right, I remember reading about that in here.
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  469. # [17:50] <Lachy> but Mozilla could now implement that using their experimental :-moz-any() selector
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  471. # [17:51] <JonathanNeal> Got it. Which browser were you going to roll this into? Cause some folks would want to customize that if they could.
  472. # [17:51] <Lachy> well, it's in the spec and will hopefully be introduced into all browsers eventually. I don't know of any browser that has any immediate plans.
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  474. # [17:52] <Lachy> but as annevk just said above, Mozilla has just implemented some support for the new elements, without doing anything about these heading styles
  475. # [17:53] <Lachy> see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#margins-and-padding for more info
  476. # [17:54] <Lachy> so, according to that, Mozilla should implement those styles using :-moz-any(article, aside, section, nav) in place of the selector "x" given in the spec
  477. # [17:55] <JonathanNeal> Neat, maybe I should add that into http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.css
  478. # [17:57] <Lachy> is that stylesheet based on the styles given in the spec?
  479. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: In your HTML5+Microdata template, putting fn and org on the <img> will *never* be correct.
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  481. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> Unless your company's name really is "images/site-graphic.png".
  482. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> Also somewhat confused about the hcard being duplicated for the page title block.
  483. # [18:01] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, I thought we were gonna petition to have it read the alt :-)
  484. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> Yes, I still am, but @itemprop *on* an <img> is always going to read the @src.
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  488. # [18:03] <Lachy> JonathanNeal, here are all the heading styles as they could be implemented in Mozilla http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/463
  489. # [18:04] <Lachy> Open that in Minefield to see the intended result
  490. # [18:04] * rafff is now known as erlehmann
  491. # [18:04] <Lachy> won't work in any release version of Firefox, as :-moz-any() was just added recently
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  495. # [18:08] <JonathanNeal> neato Lachy. Who has since quit.
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  497. # [18:16] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, so I would put the fn org logo on the anchor or h1?
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  501. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> JonathanNeal: The <h1>, because putting it on an <a> has a special meaning too.
  502. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> If @itemprop appears on an <img>, <video>, <audio>, <link>, <object>, <a>, or <time>, the value is drawn from an attribute. <meta> too, but that should be obvious. Any other tags, it grabs the text contents instead.
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  505. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> Basically anything with a significant url attribute, plus <time> and <meta>.
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  507. # [18:28] * erlehmann is now known as nebenbei
  508. # [18:28] <JonathanNeal_> I'll move it to the H1 right now on all of them.
  509. # [18:31] <JonathanNeal_> Okay, updated.
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  512. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> JonathanNeal_: Keep logo where it was. That's *supposed* to point at an image url.
  513. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> Also, I'm still confused about why you have a second hcard on the page-title block.
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  521. # [18:50] <JonathanNeal_> Just trying to show an example where you have two hcards
  522. # [18:51] <JonathanNeal_> Would it be better / more clear if I killed the page one?
  523. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> While that's a valid goal, I think it results in something nonsensical here.
  524. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  525. # [18:52] <JonathanNeal_> Okay, updated with both of your requests.
  526. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> All right, only one problem left. ^_^ The itemscope has to be an ancestor to all its properties, so you'll have to move @itemscope, @itemref, and @itemtype all up to the hgroup.
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  529. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> Or, move the @itemprop into a wrapper element somewhere inside of the <h1>.
  530. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> Seems fine otherwise; the only thing I can criticize is the use of extraneous <div>s.
  531. # [18:59] <JonathanNeal_> Which <div>s don't you like?
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  533. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> How big is a typical starting size for TCP windows? I haven't been able to find any real-world estimates in some brief Googling.
  534. # [18:59] <JonathanNeal_> itemscope has to be an ancestor or a child? Which am I moving?
  535. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> #main-document, and at least one of #content or #main-content.
  536. # [19:01] <JonathanNeal_> main-content is useful for the skip to main content link.
  537. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> @itemscope declares that something is a Microdata container. It must be an ancestor. So either move @itemscope up (along with @itemtype and @itemref, which must be alonside @itemscope) or move @itemprop down onto a wrapper element (since there is no appropriate child element to carry those @itemprops right now).
  538. # [19:01] <JonathanNeal_> main-document is the document wrapper, and describes its contents.
  539. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> <body> is the document wrapper.
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  542. # [19:02] <JonathanNeal_> This where I usually bring up a chat bar or a dockbar that might exist aside the main portion of the document, and may be application content.
  543. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Ah, okay. That's not in the template, so it looked extraneous.
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  545. # [19:08] <JonathanNeal_> TabAtkins, okay I've updated.
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  549. # [19:08] <JonathanNeal_> And added some comments to clarify the main document.
  550. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> You forgot to move the @itemref too.
  551. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> Otherwise looks fine.
  552. # [19:10] <JonathanNeal_> Doh! I'm sorry. I'm in blankets at home with a bad cold and I'm being slow, my bad.
  553. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> np
  554. # [19:11] <JonathanNeal_> Should be all good now
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  605. # [20:07] * AryehGregor finally concludes that the offer-to-translate feature of Chrome is almost completely worthless, and disables it
  606. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Really? I've found it useful every time it's popped up.
  607. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> I've never found it useful.
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  613. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> It pops up in Gmail, duplicating the in-Gmail popup, except the browser-level one doesn't go away when I navigate because it doesn't notice the navigation.
  614. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> It also pops up for Hebrew, when I can usually do a better job translating than it. (Yes, I know I can disable just for Hebrew.)
  615. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> And it pops up in crazy places, claiming that an ASCII-only Apache directory listing is some crazy language or other.
  616. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> I've never actually had it pop up usefully, but it pops up uselessly all the time for me.
  617. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Interesting. I've never had it pop up crazily.
  618. # [20:16] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
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  622. # [20:20] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I thought Google were the people who keep saying that language detection heuristics are far more reliable than explicit metadata in pages
  623. # [20:21] <Philip`> Maybe the bar is very low
  624. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I'm sure that's true, but that doesn't mean it's reliable in an absolute sense.
  625. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> "Far more reliable" doesn't necessary mean "reliable".
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  627. # [20:21] <Aleoss> http://aleoss.ath.cx/css/
  628. # [20:21] <Aleoss> :D
  629. # [20:21] <Dashiva> At least heuristics don't claim to be correct, only almost
  630. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: Link doesn't work.
  631. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> I've had Gmail detect e-mails as Finnish or something when they were just plain English with a PGP key in them.
  632. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> Maybe Finnish is a very weird language? :)
  633. # [20:22] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: Oh? How so?
  634. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: I dunno, I just can't connect to ath.cx or aleoss.ath.cx
  635. # [20:22] <Dashiva> Maybe it reinterprets the bytes as some weird finnish encoding
  636. # [20:22] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: What is the error?
  637. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I'm going with "finnish is weird". Or, finnish people actually sign their speech with PGP.
  638. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> A weird Finnish encoding that's not a superset of ASCII?
  639. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, the link works for me.
  640. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: "Google Chrome could not connect to aleoss.ath.cx".
  641. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> Aleoss, did you see the last xkcd April Fool's joke?
  642. # [20:23] <Dashiva> They had Finnish EBCDIC and stuff, so sure
  643. # [20:23] <Aleoss> No I didn't Aryeh. What was it?
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  645. # [20:23] <Dashiva> It was a non-cross-browser compatible web application
  646. # [20:24] <Dashiva> Quite disappointing!
  647. # [20:24] <Aleoss> :P
  648. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: My wife can't connect to that site from home either. I guess it hasn't percolated to our cache yet in Cali?
  649. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Is it a recent DNS change?
  650. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> Aleoss, http://uni.xkcd.com/
  651. # [20:24] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: Nope. It's been on dyndns.org for a few months now.
  652. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> . . . did you just call your wife and ask her to connect to a site to help debug this?
  653. # [20:25] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@12.33.239.250)
  654. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> Also, I had no idea you were married.
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  656. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> No, I hit her up in google chat.
  657. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> And yes, my 5-year anniversary is this June.
  658. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> How old are you?
  659. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> 24
  660. # [20:25] <Dashiva> gsnedders is now feeling the pressure
  661. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Huh.
  662. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Married my high-school sweetheart. ^_^
  663. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Is that the Rachel Atkins I've seen on Buzz?
  664. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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  666. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Well, now I know, then.
  667. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> At least, if you keep getting things about cooking from her.
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  669. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> No, I've just seen her reply to one or two of your posts, I think.
  670. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. Yeah, still her.
  671. # [20:27] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-ujaamdfrjxdabsks)
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  676. # [20:28] <Aleoss> Aryeh: What did you think of the source code of the document? ;)
  677. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Aleoss, didn't look at it.
  678. # [20:29] <Aleoss> :O
  679. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> I admit that I do habitually use an actual web browser to view web pages, rather than curl.
  680. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> So, you know, it's usually not necessary for me to look at the source.
  681. # [20:29] <Aleoss> I use an actual web browser too.
  682. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Why do you have a title on a stylesheet when there's no alternate stylesheet?
  683. # [20:30] <Dashiva> I thought everyone did HTML5 parsing in their heads
  684. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, I tried, but I can't remember algorithms that are more than 20 pages of pseudocode.
  685. # [20:30] <Aleoss> I put a title on it incase the browser puts it into a list of sorts, I've heard about before a browser having a list of all linking elements and if it has a title attribute it'll display it over top of it on mouse over.
  686. # [20:31] <Dashiva> Just convert to brain bytecode
  687. # [20:31] <Aleoss> I don't remember the name of the browser.
  688. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> Most of them do that, but only if there are alternate stylesheets.
  689. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> I think.
  690. # [20:32] <Aleoss> But it's really clean code and very explicit, eh? :P
  691. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, isn't display: initial equivalent to display: inline?
  692. # [20:34] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.94) (Quit: othermaciej)
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  694. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Aleoss, too much pointless markup. Why not omit <head>, </head>, </body>, </html>? Also, <meta charset="UTF-8"> instead of the http-equiv thing. And I thought HTML5 banned <meta name="keywords">.
  695. # [20:34] <Aleoss> Aryeh: No. That meta tag is used for SEO.
  696. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> media="all" is always pointless. type="" doesn't normally need to be specified anywhere. The two titles in the head are pointless.
  697. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Aleoss, um, all major search engines ignore <meta name="keywords">.
  698. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Yahoo pays a little bit of attention to it.
  699. # [20:35] <Aleoss> And Description is also used for SEO.
  700. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Description is a good meta, keep that.
  701. # [20:35] <Aleoss> And the Robots meta tag tells web bots what to do with the page when they come across it.
  702. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> rel="alternate" is misused on the links.http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#link-type-alternate
  703. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Is pubdate actually used correctly there? It seems wrong.
  704. # [20:36] * AryehGregor is hatin'
  705. # [20:36] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.94)
  706. # [20:36] * nebenbei is now known as erlehmann
  707. # [20:36] * AryehGregor invites technical criticism of http://aryeh.name
  708. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Ah, right, display:initial is indeed equivalent to display:inline.
  709. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> What he really wants is a value that means "use whatever the cascaded value from the user-agent stylesheet is".
  710. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Yes, I've wanted that before too.
  711. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Though in his specific case, the correct advice is to just use "style=display:none" to hide it, and then remove the @style to show it.
  712. # [20:37] <Aleoss> Aryeh: Then what rel would it be?
  713. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Aleoss, um, . . . probably none?
  714. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> rel is optional, you know.
  715. # [20:38] * riven` is now known as riven
  716. # [20:39] <Aleoss> archives looks appropriate.
  717. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> For which?
  718. # [20:39] <Aleoss> For all the links.
  719. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Um, no.
  720. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> It's not appropriate at all.
  721. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> archives is for a history page of some kind.
  722. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Like the archive of a blog.
  723. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Speaking of which, is there any point in me adding rel="archives" to history links in MediaWiki?
  724. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Does anything actually use it?
  725. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> I mean UA-wise, not author-wise.
  726. # [20:42] * AryehGregor notes that there has been no technical criticism of the source code of http://aryeh.name, which implies it must be perfect
  727. # [20:42] <Dashiva> Well, I guess opera should show it in the info panel
  728. # [20:43] <Dashiva> *would
  729. # [20:43] * AryehGregor wonders why he's using <header> when it only contains a single <h1> . . . oh, right, for styling, more appropriate than a <div>
  730. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I dislike your lack of indentation, and also your line-wrapping.
  731. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> What lack of indentation, and what line-wrapping?
  732. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> Your homepage source-code.
  733. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Oh, in the actual source code.
  734. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> I do use indentation, where appropriate.
  735. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> You indented one section in the entire site.
  736. # [20:45] <Aleoss> Aryeh: Tell me what you think of the source code for: http://aleoss.ath.cx/?p=register
  737. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> I mostly indent only <li>s, it looks like.
  738. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Also the indentation for a couple of <a>'s is totally insane.
  739. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> I got tired of telling vim not to do that.
  740. # [20:46] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.224)
  741. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Line wrapping is useful because it means version control works reasonably well.
  742. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Same reason as the HTML5 spec is line-wrapped, I assume.
  743. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Also, vim doesn't behave well on long unwrapped lines, it's hard to navigate in them.
  744. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Anyway, what else would you like me to indent? I don't believe in gratuitous indentation of HTML.
  745. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> Bah, tooling issues shouldn't distract you from making your source beautiful.
  746. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Makes things hard to read, the nesting is too much.
  747. # [20:48] <Aleoss> Heh. My document has 0 HTML indentation.
  748. # [20:48] <TabAtkins> Personally, indenting the contents of the <header> and <h1> would make it more readable to me.
  749. # [20:48] <TabAtkins> The 8ch tab used by view-source is indeed too fat, though. A 4ch tab is more than readable.
  750. # [20:49] <Aleoss> Nah. For indenting, all you need is a space.
  751. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> URLs are really annoying if you're trying to keep to 80-char lines.
  752. # [20:49] <Aleoss> I have a good reason why.
  753. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> Tabs are long-accepted to be the indentation character.
  754. # [20:50] <Aleoss> http://aleoss.ath.cx/js/date-time.js
  755. # [20:50] <Aleoss> Imagine if that was 4 spaces per indent or worse... 8....
  756. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> If you have heavy indentation, you can adjust the width of your tab. That's why tabs *exist* - they're variable-width.
  757. # [20:50] <jcranmer> no, that's essentially 2 spaces/indent
  758. # [20:51] <jcranmer> if () {\n<2sp>foo;\n}
  759. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> I do use a 2-space indent in emails, because typing a tab into a textarea is annoying, and 2 spaces are short enough to be easy to type and long enough to show indentation adequately in small examples.
  760. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> I shouldn't be using background-image: linear-gradient(#0AE, white); yet, should I?
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  762. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Personally, I think there is basically no chance of that changing between now and when Images goes Rec.
  763. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Still bad form, though.
  764. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  765. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> And largely pointless.
  766. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> I'll remove it.
  767. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> But it's a nearly-guaranteed stable declaration, so shrug.
  768. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Is anyone still talking about a way to officially freeze specific syntaxes before CR, so browsers can implement the unprefixed versions sooner?
  769. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> The answer seems to be just "if it becomes a problem, we'll kick the offenders to the next level and just CR what's stable".
  770. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Blech.
  771. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> How inflexible.
  772. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> There are other advantages to faster spec progress, though.
  773. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Shrug. It's technically equivalent, and requires less mucking about with process.
  774. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> I don't think you'd need to have a lot of process, just some vendor saying "Hey, we're implementing this now, and we'd prefer to go with a standard prefix at this point, anyone object to freezing this?"
  775. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Ideally, anyone else who already implemented it identical syntax with a vendor prefix could then push out support for the unprefixed version in a maintenance release, instead of waiting for the next full release.
  776. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> . . . well, as long as we don't get another border-radius, anyway.
  777. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> I mean: . . . well, as long as we don't get another border-radius, it's probably good.
  778. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> What's the issue with them saying the same thing, and us just kicking the unstable bits to the next level?
  779. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> You might have to have a lot of levels.
  780. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> And?
  781. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> Or a lot of very small specs.
  782. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> And?
  783. # [20:58] <othermaciej> what defines "stable"?
  784. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> Neither of these seem troublesome.
  785. # [20:58] <othermaciej> lots of very small specs is troublesome
  786. # [20:59] <othermaciej> if each one is about a property that interacts with ones from many other specs
  787. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> That's true.
  788. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> It just seems pointless to have to progress a lot of orthogonal features all or nothing.
  789. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Of course, that's a problem with the W3C process generally, I guess.
  790. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  791. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> So skipping W3C process on this one issue won't really fix the problem.
  792. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> But good luck getting that fixed.
  793. # [21:00] <Dashiva> It's a feature, not a bug :P
  794. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> It's a buggy feature!
  795. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> Your got your bug in my feature! No, you got your feature in my bug! Wait a minute...
  796. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> IMO, we should never have two browsers shipping vendor prefixes for the same feature implemented interoperably, unless they were implemented at about the same time and we're still not sure the syntax is stable.
  797. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> By the time you have a second interoperable implementation and are pretty sure the syntax is good, you should be dropping the vendor prefix for that second implementation.
  798. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> I doubt that level of aggression in dropping prefixes would be compatible with dropping them only on entrance to CR.
  799. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Am I wrong to want that?
  800. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> Not necessarily.
  801. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Of course, -moz-border-radius, -webkit-border-radius, and border-radius are all slightly different.
  802. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> It's so nice that we have a canonical example of where early prefix-dropping would have screwed everything up.
  803. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> Well, I don't think border-radius ever met the standard I just suggested, so I'm safe on that front.
  804. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> Man, I have *really* got to buy something from Flyleaf. I love their music too much.
  805. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> I think we may have come close to two interop implementations of old border-image, which would have been a problem.
  806. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> The only difference is with percentages and ellipses, it seems, no?
  807. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> With fixed circular units everything is the same?
  808. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> With border-radius? Yeah.
  809. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Which is the most common case by far, I'd think.
  810. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> But meh.
  811. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> Actually, it's just %s. You just need %s to do ellipses properly.
  812. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  813. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> Rather, you need per-side %s, not %s always tied to width (which is FF's current impl).
  814. # [21:08] * AryehGregor keeps reading %s as a printf()-style token indicating a string
  815. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> Heh.
  816. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> %'s would be fine.
  817. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Or, and I know this is a radical idea, you could type the word out.
  818. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> It would be acceptable, yes, but unnecessary.
  819. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> And typing out "percentages" is just silly when I can omit 9 characters.
  820. # [21:10] * AryehGregor is trying to think of some witty retort involving %u or something, but fails
  821. # [21:11] * AryehGregor goes off to lunch/dinner, cryptography, and topology
  822. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> That sounds like an awesome evening.
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  831. # [21:27] * jgraham discovers that OSX keybindings for pgdown are too hard to use when your left hand is holding a g;ass of water to by your eye where you just accidentially got chilli
  832. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> Apparently the keybindings for ordinary typing are too hard to use, as well.
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  840. # [21:56] <jgraham> TabAtkins: No, that's just normal.
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  846. # [22:06] <volkmar> Hixie: ping
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  849. # [22:08] <tantek> choose your side: Unicorn vs Narwhal http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/4557645875/
  850. # [22:08] <weinig> WOW!
  851. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> tantek: That's... that's a real thing?
  852. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Where did you find it?
  853. # [22:09] <tantek> Rhino Records in Claremont, CA
  854. # [22:09] <tantek> yes I'm holding it in the picture
  855. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Can you... buy it for me?
  856. # [22:09] <tantek> you can see my arm to the lower left and my left foot below
  857. # [22:09] <tantek> I'm not in Claremont right now
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  859. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Darn.
  860. # [22:10] <tantek> my Flickr is a bit (~5 mo.) behind
  861. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> O
  862. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> I'll see if I can swing by there next time I head down to LA.
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  866. # [22:11] <tantek> my guess is you could probably find it on one of those fancy search engine thingies
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  869. # [22:12] <tantek> TabAtkins, here you go: http://tantek.com/asin/B000R85W1M
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  871. # [22:13] <jgraham> Why the url shortner?
  872. # [22:13] <tantek> because Amazon has broken ASINs in the past
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  874. # [22:14] <tantek> (I've collected about a half dozen broken ASINs so far)
  875. # [22:14] <jgraham> ASINs?
  876. # [22:14] <tantek> those IDs that start with B00...
  877. # [22:14] <jgraham> Oh
  878. # [22:14] <tantek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Standard_Identification_Number
  879. # [22:15] <jgraham> Nothing to do with Madonna then
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  906. # [23:10] <aboodman> quick question on the proposed Origin header.
  907. # [23:10] <aboodman> would it be sent with all requests, or only those from XHR?
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  910. # [23:14] <othermaciej> aboodman: all requests, though some particular kinds of requests would always send "Origin: null"
  911. # [23:14] <othermaciej> abarth probably knows the details of what is proposed and what WebKit does currently
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  913. # [23:24] <aboodman> othermaciej: so, eg, if a form was constructed and submitted cross-origin, the Origin header would be present.
  914. # [23:24] <aboodman> and a site that checked it would not be vulnerable to xsrf.
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  919. # [23:36] <paul_irish> aboodman: offhand, do you know what was the first version of FF to support CORS? v3?
  920. # [23:36] <aboodman> paul_irish: nope
  921. # [23:36] <aboodman> i don't even know if any current versions support it
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  923. # [23:50] <othermaciej> aboodman: yes
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  925. # [23:50] <othermaciej> aboodman: more importantly, the same-origin form would have its own domain's Origin
  926. # [23:50] <othermaciej> aboodman: so tricky ways of stripping the origin would probably produce Origin: null rather than a valid value
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  928. # [23:51] <GarethAdams|Home> What would happen if the initial value of a <textarea> or <input> was longer than that permitted by the maxlength?
  929. # [23:51] <othermaciej> aboodman: you may find this informative about some of the concepts: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009OctDec/0468.html
  930. # [23:52] <aboodman> othermaciej: i read that already, thanks.
  931. # [23:52] <aboodman> (it was)
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  933. # [23:52] <aboodman> i don't think it covered the detail of whether the Origin header was sent for normal forms, but maybe I missed it.
  934. # Session Close: Wed Apr 28 00:00:00 2010

The end :)