/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-01 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sat May 01 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:10] * Quits: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115) (Quit: Leaving.)
  4. # [00:13] <Lachy> sicking, if you're referring to things like meter, progress, hidden="", etc. then I am personally in favour of retaining them. I also believe the rest of us are too
  5. # [00:13] <Lachy> at least, I've not heard anything from anyone at Opera arguing that the elements or attributes should be dropped.
  6. # [00:14] <sicking> Lachy: are "the rest of us" enough for me to put on the wiki that "opera has indicated interest" in supporting them?
  7. # [00:15] <Hixie> wasn't i working for opera when some of those were originally added?
  8. # [00:15] <Lachy> well, obviously, I can't make an official statement on behalf of opera, but yeah, I think it's fairly safe to say that.
  9. # [00:16] <Lachy> I think you were
  10. # [00:16] <Hixie> (not that that really means anything)
  11. # [00:17] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-190-116.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
  12. # [00:17] <Lachy> I've been meaning to provide some feedback about the zero-edit change proposal, but haven't got around to it yet
  13. # [00:18] <Lachy> my problem with it is that it fails to adequately describe the use cases for many of the elements.
  14. # [00:20] <sicking> Lachy: cool
  15. # [00:21] * Parts: jamund (~jamund@173-8-91-177-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  16. # [00:27] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.131) (Quit: Leaving...)
  17. # [00:28] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162)
  18. # [00:31] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162) (Client Quit)
  19. # [00:35] <Lachy> sicking, what's mozilla's status with implementing <meter> and <progress>? Are there any plans for those in the near future?
  20. # [00:36] <Lachy> Or are there plans to implement XBL first, which is somewhat essential for applying advanced styles to those elements.?
  21. # [00:37] <Lachy> we also need psudo-elements for them, or styling limitations will be one of the biggest problems with them.
  22. # [00:39] <tabatkins> I need to spend a few hours thinking about the pseudoelems to expose on <progress>, so that later XBL can expose them in a non-magical way.
  23. # [00:41] * Quits: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  24. # [00:41] * Joins: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105)
  25. # [00:42] <tabatkins> (or someone else can, of course, but I'll probably do it sometime soon)
  26. # [00:42] <Hixie> <progress> doesn't really need much, it's <meter> that really needs something
  27. # [00:42] <Hixie> <progress> you're more likely to do using <canvas> or some such
  28. # [00:43] <tabatkins> Not necessarily. There are plenty of good, simple uses that are roughly equivalent to the styling needs of <meter>.
  29. # [00:45] <Lachy> I think progress only needs 1 pseudo-element the highlighted portion.
  30. # [00:46] <Lachy> meter needs a lot to handle all the different components, from the low point, high point, mid point, highlighted region, optimal point and maybe more. Haven't really thought about it in detail though.
  31. # [00:48] <Hixie> the more i think of it the more i think both are likely to just be done programmatically (e.g. using canvas)
  32. # [00:48] <Hixie> rather than with css
  33. # [00:48] <Hixie> though one might want to parameterise it via css somehow
  34. # [00:51] <Lachy> My original thoughs were that authors would use XBL templates to replace them with scripted/animated SVG
  35. # [00:51] <Lachy> but canvas is another likely alternative
  36. # [00:52] <tabatkins> That would just be <canvas><progress/></canvas>, right?
  37. # [00:56] <boogyman> tabatkins you're using xhtml syntax
  38. # [00:56] <tabatkins> No, I'm using pseudocode. ^_^
  39. # [00:57] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162)
  40. # [01:01] <Lachy> tabatkins, I don't think that's the best way of dealing with it because doing that way doesn't create a nice, easily reusable component
  41. # [01:02] * Joins: cying_ (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  42. # [01:03] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  43. # [01:04] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Hey! Listen!)
  44. # [01:04] <Lachy> rather, I think it would be something like this <xbl xmlns=...><template><canvas/></template><script>onprogress = function() {...}</script></xbl> (ignore errors in XBL, done from memory), and then that template would be bound to all progress elements in the page
  45. # [01:05] <tabatkins> Kk.
  46. # [01:05] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  47. # [01:05] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  48. # [01:05] * cying_ is now known as cying
  49. # [01:07] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  50. # [01:09] <othermaciej> Lachy: I don't think XBL is at all essential to styling <progress> or <meter>
  51. # [01:09] <othermaciej> Lachy: pseudo-elements should cut it
  52. # [01:10] <othermaciej> certainly for <progress> and also for many common uses of <meter>
  53. # [01:10] <Lachy> othermaciej, pseudo-elements can handle simple styling. But if you want more advanced styles, like what canvas or svg can provide, then XBL is better
  54. # [01:10] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  55. # [01:11] <Lachy> CSS with pseudos can basically handle colours, backgrounds, borders and sizes. I would consider much beyond that to be more advanced styles.
  56. # [01:13] <Lachy> I wonder how CSS transitions would interact with <progress> and <meter> psuedo-elements, if you could use them to specify how to transition between state changes.
  57. # [01:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: i replied to julian
  58. # [01:29] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  59. # [01:34] <Hixie> woot, i reached zero unread e-mails for the first time since monday!
  60. # [01:34] <Hixie> so, where was i wish timed tracks
  61. # [01:35] <theMadness> Lachy, progress and meter *pseudo* elements?
  62. # [01:36] <tabatkins> theMadness: Pseudos within the progress/meter.
  63. # [01:36] <tabatkins> So like progress::complete or something.
  64. # [01:36] <theMadness> Got it.
  65. # [01:37] <Lachy> theMadness, to be clear, pseudo-element selectors for use in CSS
  66. # [01:37] <theMadness> Somthing a la meter::stepping allowing us to determine how to transition between states might do it.
  67. # [01:37] <theMadness> Something a la meter::stepping allowing us to determine how to transition between states might actually prove quite useful.
  68. # [01:40] * Joins: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115)
  69. # [01:40] <theMadness> Actually I said meter but I was thinking progress.
  70. # [01:40] <Lachy> theMadness, would probably be done more like progress::complete { transition: width 1s linear; }
  71. # [01:41] <theMadness> I'm not arguing the syntax, I'll let you experts fight it out. :) But all in all it can (could) be very useful.
  72. # [01:42] <tabatkins> And with a "width: calc( attr(value,number) / attr(max,number) * 100% )" rule or similar.
  73. # [01:43] <Lachy> tabatkins, I assume the width would be handled by the UA stylesheet
  74. # [01:43] <Lachy> or other mechanism.
  75. # [01:43] <tabatkins> Well, yeah. But if it's in CSS, it would be with a rule like that in the UA stylesheet.
  76. # [01:43] <tabatkins> Or else magic, yeah.
  77. # [01:44] <Lachy> Doesn't make much sense to allow authors to overriide that with CSS themselves, cause then they could use that to represent different states, rather than changing the element's attributes
  78. # [01:44] <theMadness> Yet we should be allowed to mess with it, isn't that the purpose of the whole thing? Like having a meter that fills using a background image positioning, or an opacity thing...
  79. # [01:44] <tabatkins> They can do that with the XBL bindings to canvas. You won't really be stopping anything.
  80. # [01:44] <theMadness> Or font size...
  81. # [01:45] <tabatkins> And nod, there are decent cases for using more than a changing width to represent completion.
  82. # [01:46] <Lachy> if it's being represented as a bar, as it would by default, then I can't see anything but the width being used.
  83. # [01:46] <tabatkins> Vertical bar is the simplest counter-example.
  84. # [01:47] <Lachy> If it were altered to be a circular gauge, like a pressure gauge with a needle, then it would obviously not use width either. But that's something to be handled with SVG/canvas/XBL
  85. # [01:47] * Quits: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105) (Quit: devc)
  86. # [01:47] <tabatkins> Pfft. You can totally do that with transforms.
  87. # [01:48] <theMadness> But it would lose all the semantic weight.
  88. # [01:48] <Lachy> meter and progress should probably inherit the same magic as <input type=range> for switching between horizontal and vertical bars
  89. # [01:48] <tabatkins> theMadness: No, doing the rendering with canvas/svg/etc doesn't harm the meaning of the <progress> itself.
  90. # [01:48] <theMadness> Uhm, what would the syntax edn up being?
  91. # [01:49] <theMadness> *end
  92. # [01:49] <Lachy> theMadness, the semantics would be on the <meter> element in the HTML markup. XBL is a technology that allows you do bind a template to an element, like meter, which can then have the appearance of replacing it with something more customised
  93. # [01:50] <tabatkins> With <canvas>, you can put <progress> as a child. Or you can use XBL to bind an entirely different CSS tree to it.
  94. # [01:50] <Lachy> XBL isn't implemented by any browser yet though, it has been planned for a long time
  95. # [01:50] <sicking> Lachy, i'm working on it ;)
  96. # [01:50] <Lachy> hurry up!
  97. # [01:50] <sicking> that's actually almost true today
  98. # [01:50] <sicking> i'll be working on it next week in fact
  99. # [01:50] * sicking is excited
  100. # [01:50] <tabatkins> Yay!
  101. # [01:51] <theMadness> sicking which UA?
  102. # [01:51] <tabatkins> ff
  103. # [01:51] <sicking> theMadness: Firefox
  104. # [01:51] * sicking works for mozilla
  105. # [01:51] <theMadness> Nice.
  106. # [01:51] <Lachy> sicking, when do you expect to have experimental build available?
  107. # [01:51] <theMadness> As a gesture of goodwill I shall scold tabatkins for using the wrong abbreviation. It's FX, foo!
  108. # [01:52] <tabatkins> Correctness is democratic. ff has been the right abbreviation for a long time, according to the people.
  109. # [01:52] <theMadness> Yeah but I'm trying to score points here. :)
  110. # [01:53] <Hixie> man i just can't get over how many fricking subtitle formats there are
  111. # [01:54] <theMadness> And how none of them is smil.
  112. # [01:54] <tabatkins> I'm honestly surprised too, considering that every new format needs someone to support it. I'm guessing there are a lot of formats only accepted by a single consumer.
  113. # [01:54] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-jkoexqjlmxfjonor) (Quit: dglazkov)
  114. # [01:55] <Hixie> these formats are so similar that there's some tools that just have text files that define how to parse a lot of them
  115. # [01:55] <Hixie> q.v. http://subtitleproc.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/subtitleproc/SubtitleProcessor/data/
  116. # [01:57] <tabatkins> Yay I get to buy a bike tomorrow morning! Woo!
  117. # [01:57] * tabatkins is excited about bikes.
  118. # [01:58] * Hixie recommends a hybrid with hardcase tires
  119. # [01:58] <tabatkins> I'm getting hardcase tires. Hybrid?
  120. # [01:58] <Hixie> kind of a cross between a road bike and a mountain bike
  121. # [01:59] <tabatkins> Why would I need more than just a road bike? I really don't intend to go biking in non-urban environments.
  122. # [02:00] <Hixie> mountain view is a non-urban environment
  123. # [02:01] <Hixie> in terms of what bikes expect
  124. # [02:01] <Hixie> you got pot holes, glass on the floor, tree roots, all kinds of crap
  125. # [02:01] <Hixie> hybrids are often also termed "commutter bikes"
  126. # [02:01] <tabatkins> Well, the one I've got my eyes on is a narrow wheel, though not the blade-looking wheels you say on racing bikes.
  127. # [02:02] <Hixie> (though possibly spelt correctly)
  128. # [02:02] <tabatkins> s/say/see/
  129. # [02:02] <Hixie> yeah hybrids are narower than mountain bikes and wider than racing bikes
  130. # [02:03] <tabatkins> All right, then that's what I'm getting. ^_^ When I talked to the salesman guy, I specifically noted that I'll be using it for commuting.
  131. # [02:03] <Hixie> http://bicycling.about.com/od/howtoride/a/hybrids.htm
  132. # [02:04] <Hixie> one difference is the handlebars on a hybrid are like those on a mountain bike, straight, rather than the rounded ones of road bikes
  133. # [02:04] <tabatkins> Yeah, that's definitely what I'm getting.
  134. # [02:04] <tabatkins> Basically it just looks like a mountain bike with narrow wheels.
  135. # [02:04] <Hixie> yeah
  136. # [02:05] <Hixie> excellent
  137. # [02:05] <Hixie> :-)
  138. # [02:05] <tabatkins> Walt's Cycles was a good recommendation, btw.
  139. # [02:06] <Hixie> cool, glad i could help
  140. # [02:06] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: cying)
  141. # [02:09] * Joins: shepazutoo (~schepers@adsl-69-163-174.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  142. # [02:19] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  143. # [02:23] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@EM114-48-10-140.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  144. # [02:24] <Hixie> oh my, I've just found a format that makes TTML look positively simple in comparison
  145. # [02:24] <Hixie> http://guliverkli2.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/guliverkli2/src/subtitles/libssf/demo/demo.ssf
  146. # [02:24] * Joins: beilabs (~beilabs@ppp121-44-52-131.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net)
  147. # [02:25] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.224)
  148. # [02:27] * Quits: daedb_ (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  149. # [02:29] <Hixie> so far i think i can categorise most subtitle formats into one of four categories
  150. # [02:29] <Hixie> 1. too trivial to be useful
  151. # [02:29] <Hixie> 2. simple
  152. # [02:29] <Hixie> 3. far too complicated
  153. # [02:29] <boogyman> what's the purpose of ttml?
  154. # [02:29] <Hixie> 4. ludicrously complicated
  155. # [02:29] <Hixie> most fall into either #1 or #2
  156. # [02:30] <Hixie> ssf is the only one in #4 so far
  157. # [02:30] <tabatkins> Oh, wow, that is definitely a #4.
  158. # [02:30] <Hixie> boogyman: subtitles
  159. # [02:33] <tabatkins> Also, thumbs up on the engineer headphones.
  160. # [02:34] <tabatkins> I've gotten far too used to my decade-old gameboy earphones.
  161. # [02:36] * Quits: carllerche (~carllerch@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net) (Quit: carllerche)
  162. # [02:37] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.17.104) (Quit: ap)
  163. # [02:38] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-jdvlfqejqidtzdch) (Quit: dave_levin)
  164. # [02:39] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162) (Quit: Leaving)
  165. # [02:46] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539])
  166. # [02:50] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  167. # [02:56] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net)
  168. # [03:07] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: leaving)
  169. # [03:10] <lazni> has anyone tested the html5 doctype on obscure mobile phones?
  170. # [03:12] <boblet> lazni: I will be later this month (Japanese phones), but haven’t yet
  171. # [03:12] <lazni> boblet: TIA, I'm just making sure it's compatible there
  172. # [03:13] <boblet> given how crap their browsers generally are (cHTML), and how rapid the turnover is, and how iPhone really shook things up over here, I’m not too worried about it though
  173. # [03:13] * Joins: slightlyoff (~slightlyo@nat/google/x-egfmqjvuktacywfr)
  174. # [03:13] <lazni> 'k
  175. # [03:13] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  176. # [03:13] <lazni> cHTML? crapHTML?
  177. # [03:13] <lazni> =)
  178. # [03:14] <boblet> cHTML sites are basically web pre-tables. text formatting and images, baby, with <hr> for hawtness
  179. # [03:14] <boblet> compact, but may as well be
  180. # [03:14] <lazni> wow, I'm not old enough to know about cHTML
  181. # [03:15] * boblet wishes there was a min-font-size property
  182. # [03:15] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  183. # [03:15] <tabatkins> boblet: What are you trying to do?
  184. # [03:16] <boblet> tabatkins: I’ve hacked bopomofo rendering together to demonstrate for an article on ruby, but due to browser font-size minimums if the base text isn’t huge the bopomofo pops out
  185. # [03:17] <tabatkins> And you can't just set "ruby { font-size: foo; }"
  186. # [03:17] <tabatkins> ?
  187. # [03:17] <boblet> Trying to do this, but with ltr text : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo#Writing
  188. # [03:18] <boblet> tabatkins: you presuppose decent browser support for ruby :|
  189. # [03:18] <boblet> no one has tackled bopomofo — it’s an i18n train wreck
  190. # [03:19] <boblet> the CSS3 ruby module passes the buck to the OS
  191. # [03:19] <tabatkins> Well, true. But hacking CSS to get around bad ruby support seems like a waste of time, when you could equally spend effort getting proper ruby support. ^_^
  192. # [03:19] <boblet> and no one even implemented it
  193. # [03:19] <tabatkins> I think Ishida is taking on the Ruby module?
  194. # [03:19] <theMadness> lazni, if anyone has the tools to do it, it's ppk. Maybe send him a shout?
  195. # [03:20] <lazni> theMadness: true
  196. # [03:20] <boblet> tabatkins: that presupposes I had the skillz to help ;) writing about it is the best I can do
  197. # [03:20] <boblet> yeah I need to email Richard
  198. # [03:20] <theMadness> We might get a good, informative piece about it.
  199. # [03:21] * Quits: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115) (Quit: Leaving.)
  200. # [03:21] <boblet> tabatkins: writing for html5doctor on ruby so want to demonstrate bopomofo, and given zero browser support I thought I’d hack it rather than using a design app
  201. # [03:21] <boblet> no idea how to reorder inline blocksfor Korean though
  202. # [03:22] <boblet> need to swap the order of base text and ruby text
  203. # [03:23] <tabatkins> Hrm. Asain writing modes are complex.
  204. # [03:24] * tabatkins heads out for the weekend.
  205. # [03:24] <boblet> lol
  206. # [03:24] <boblet> if anyone is interested here’s bopomofo via font-size and vertical-align: http://oli-studio.com/temp/bopomofo.png
  207. # [03:25] <boblet> Hixie: you’d like that phrase btw ;-)
  208. # [03:25] <boblet> (applied with lots of spans)
  209. # [03:26] <theMadness> That brings me back (I grew up on a steady diet of violent anime)
  210. # [03:27] <boblet> theMadness: hehe. Chinese anime?
  211. # [03:27] <theMadness> Nope, mostly fist of the north star.
  212. # [03:27] <boblet> theMadness: check this: http://redsungamer.com/index.php/site/fotns-taunt-kills/
  213. # [03:28] <boblet> should take you back :)
  214. # [03:28] <theMadness> Yeah, also God Hand had a very similar style.
  215. # [03:28] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.224) (Quit: weinig)
  216. # [03:28] <theMadness> With a thick tongue-in-cheek undertone, yet.
  217. # [03:29] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
  218. # [03:30] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.213) (Quit: othermaciej)
  219. # [03:35] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-65-22.sibtele.com)
  220. # [03:36] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@EM114-48-10-140.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  221. # [03:37] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.213)
  222. # [03:37] <boblet> ooh interesting! absolute font sizes do scale to illegible — minimum font size only respected for relative
  223. # [03:38] <boblet> (Chrome)
  224. # [03:38] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.213) (Client Quit)
  225. # [03:39] <boblet> also seems to change % vertical-align distances
  226. # [03:41] * Joins: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115)
  227. # [03:51] * Quits: mut (~mut@host86-186-200-191.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  228. # [03:56] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@EM114-48-10-140.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  229. # [04:00] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-72-204-227.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  230. # [04:02] <Hixie> i present to you: the longest list of subtitle formats ever written on the internet (as far as I am aware):
  231. # [04:02] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Timed_track_formats
  232. # [04:03] * boblet applauds Hixie’s ocd-level dedication
  233. # [04:03] <boblet> that’s a list, all right
  234. # [04:03] <boblet> yikes
  235. # [04:03] <Hixie> if anyone can out-google-fu my attempts at finding information about the sections marked "Couldn't find a specification for this format" or the like, please let me know
  236. # [04:03] <Hixie> consider it a challenge
  237. # [04:03] <Hixie> i'm looking for, in order of preference:
  238. # [04:03] <Hixie> 1. formal specs
  239. # [04:03] <Hixie> 2. word-of-mouth specs
  240. # [04:04] <Hixie> 3. examples files
  241. # [04:04] <Hixie> 4. rumours
  242. # [04:05] <boblet> Hixie: any Japanese ones? I might have luck there
  243. # [04:05] <Hixie> no idea, that's the problem :-)
  244. # [04:05] <boblet> har
  245. # [04:05] <boblet> will check :)
  246. # [04:05] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@EM114-48-10-140.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  247. # [04:06] <Hixie> thanks :-)
  248. # [04:14] * Joins: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105)
  249. # [04:17] * Quits: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105) (Client Quit)
  250. # [04:17] <boblet> Hixie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_Markup_Language ?
  251. # [04:25] * Quits: beilabs (~beilabs@ppp121-44-52-131.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  252. # [04:26] <boblet> spec name is ARIB STD-B24. ARIB is the Association of Radio Industries and Businesses http://www.arib.or.jp/english/index.html
  253. # [04:27] * Joins: beilabs (~beilabs@ppp121-44-52-131.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net)
  254. # [04:32] * Quits: beilabs (~beilabs@ppp121-44-52-131.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  255. # [04:36] <boblet> just skimmed “STRUCTURE AND OPERATION OF CLOSED CAPTION DATA CONVEYED BY ANCILLARY DATA PACKETS, ARIB STANDARD, ARIB STD-B37 VERSION 2.4-E1” … water … someone [gasp]
  256. # [04:46] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  257. # [04:46] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Excess Flood)
  258. # [04:46] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  259. # [04:47] * Quits: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  260. # [04:49] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  261. # [04:50] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  262. # [04:52] <theMadness> wth is #ih5?
  263. # [04:55] <miketaylr> looks like it's a hashtag for @rem and @brucel's introducing html5 book
  264. # [04:56] <Hixie> boblet: is that a subtitle-related format?
  265. # [04:57] * Quits: michaeln (~michaeln@nat/google/x-yivkptaorccpsqkk) (Quit: Leaving.)
  266. # [04:57] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-65-22.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
  267. # [04:57] <boblet> Hixie: it seems there’s an XHTML-based format for subtitles in there, but the specs are somewhat … obtuse
  268. # [04:57] <boblet> <!DOCTYPE bml PUBLIC "-//ARIB//DTD BML x.y//JA" http://www.arib.or.jp/B24/DTD/bml_x_y.dtd"> (dtd is 404)
  269. # [04:57] <boblet> should have something worth showing you soon…
  270. # [04:58] <boblet> me curses PDFs
  271. # [04:58] <Hixie> heh
  272. # [04:58] * Quits: Bored` (~420@70.40.158.63) (Quit: .)
  273. # [05:02] * Joins: Morphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  274. # [05:06] <boblet> I just _love_ 100+ page specs which jump from DTDs to memory addressing
  275. # [05:06] <boblet> woops, my mistake. *1000+* page specs
  276. # [05:11] <boblet> in an alternate universe which recreates a modified subset pretty much the entire web stack. a scary alternate universe
  277. # [05:16] * Quits: slightlyoff (~slightlyo@nat/google/x-egfmqjvuktacywfr) (Quit: slightlyoff)
  278. # [05:22] * Quits: JoePeck (~jjp@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a) (Quit: -)
  279. # [05:28] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-clpmrkmznfjcfzat) (Quit: homeward bound)
  280. # [05:32] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-18-159.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  281. # [05:34] <boblet> Hixie: I give up. the Japanese digital TV standard ARIB STD-B24 appears to encode captions using an XML-based modified version of XHTML, but I can’t find any y’know examples.
  282. # [05:35] <Hixie> boblet: well that's a start... can you add a section to that page just mentioning that?
  283. # [05:35] <boblet> Hixie: http://www.arib.or.jp/english/html/overview/doc/6-STD-B24v5_2-1p3-E1.pdf Part 3 of this PDF (PDF page 157, written as p139) has TOC for “Coding of caption and superimpose” section
  284. # [05:35] <Hixie> it's more than i have for some of the others!
  285. # [05:36] * Parts: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115)
  286. # [05:36] * Joins: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115)
  287. # [05:36] <boblet> ohh believe me, in this case it may not be a good thing
  288. # [05:37] <Hixie> why not?
  289. # [05:38] <boblet> Hixie: http://www.arib.or.jp/english/html/overview/doc/6-STD-B24v5_2-2p3-2-E1.pdf Appendix 1 (PDF page 13) defines the operational guidelines of B-XML documents
  290. # [05:38] <boblet> in a word, verbiage
  291. # [05:39] <Hixie> well i added it
  292. # [05:39] <Hixie> "XML-based" is all i wrote :-)
  293. # [05:40] <theMadness> boblet, I can't tell you how unsettling is the combination of "human centered" and the image of huge knives.
  294. # [05:40] <boblet> it’s basically an entire browser spec; XHTML-based custom XML, subset of CSS
  295. # [05:40] <theMadness> I mean here http://oli-studio.com/images/knives.jpg
  296. # [05:40] <boblet> theMadness: har!
  297. # [05:40] <boblet> I really need to do something about that huh
  298. # [05:40] <boblet> http://oli.jp/ is the one I’ve actually updated since … 2005
  299. # [05:40] <boblet> :X
  300. # [05:40] <boblet> woops
  301. # [05:41] <Hixie> the stuff in part 3 seems to be a binary format
  302. # [05:41] <boblet> I guess :| then
  303. # [05:41] <theMadness> Backtracked it from the image you posted earlier.
  304. # [05:41] <nessy> are you looking at binary formats, too Hixie?
  305. # [05:41] <Hixie> i'm looking at everything
  306. # [05:42] <nessy> oh!
  307. # [05:42] <nessy> you got EBU then?
  308. # [05:42] <Hixie> Under "EBU STL" I just have "Couldn't find a specification for this format. Appears to be a binary format." :-)
  309. # [05:42] <nessy> standard on European TV
  310. # [05:42] <boblet> Hixie: huh. well I have no idea what this exquisitely detailed spec is actually for then. great detail in the definition, but what does it mean?
  311. # [05:42] <Hixie> boblet: yeah beats me
  312. # [05:43] <nessy> ah - I think I might have a copy floating around - it's binary and it's covered by some standard body you have to pay for the spec
  313. # [05:44] <Hixie> well that's pretty much all we need to know, so good :-)
  314. # [05:44] <Hixie> boblet: i changed it to "Apparently XML-based and/or binary based. Unclear. Appears to be rather complicated." :-)
  315. # [05:44] <boblet> lol
  316. # [05:44] <Hixie> nessy: i haven't seen any reason to use a binary format, so i doubt we'll use one; i'm just trying to be thorough
  317. # [05:44] <boblet> thank science I found the English translation — was looking at the Japanese version to start with >_<
  318. # [05:45] <boblet> aargh!
  319. # [05:45] <nessy> Hixie: glad about that!
  320. # [05:45] <boblet> that is not the emoticon you are searching for
  321. # [05:45] <nessy> binary doesn't make sense in the Web context
  322. # [05:45] <Hixie> not for this kind of thing, no
  323. # [05:46] <Hixie> boblet: was the japanese one no clearer?
  324. # [05:47] <boblet> Hixie: pretty direct translation, so for me the Japanese one was just scary
  325. # [05:47] <boblet> so is the English one actually, so even more scary ;-)
  326. # [05:47] <nessy> just came across this list of subtitle formats - http://autocaption.com/resource_specifications_format_list.html <- scarily long!
  327. # [05:48] <Hixie> holy cow, they have a longer list than i do!
  328. # [05:48] <Hixie> ok to be fair their list is kind of a lie
  329. # [05:48] <Hixie> e.g. PAC and RAC are essentially the same
  330. # [05:48] <Hixie> yet they list them separately
  331. # [05:48] <boblet> nessy wins the internets!
  332. # [05:49] <nessy> unfortunately that list is useless without links to specs
  333. # [05:50] <boblet> Hixie: looks like STD-B24 is multimedia (including captions) ”The Appendix 2 contains the operational guidelines for implementing basic services by using the XML-based multimedia coding scheme specification responsible for the data broadcasting scheme”
  334. # [05:50] <boblet> so HDTV with whatever you want overlaid
  335. # [05:52] <nessy> archive.org is awesome - here's the spec of EBU STL: http://web.archive.org/web/20060927230537/http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/tec_doc_t3264_tcm6-10528.pdf
  336. # [05:53] <boblet> also for sending to mobile phones with 1-seg (digital tv for mobile phones), over the net (I guess for net TV)
  337. # [05:53] <nessy> I once implemented a parser for it - it's not very difficult
  338. # [05:54] <nessy> it includes italics, underline and boxing for styling - no bold
  339. # [05:54] <nessy> very basic
  340. # [05:54] <boblet> Hixie: if you need more detail on this, ping me in a week and I’ll call them. It’d be the fastest way to find out a sample subtitle doc (public holiday until Thurs tho)
  341. # [05:55] <boblet> Hixie: more useful page refs in 6-STD-B24v5_2-2p3-2-E1.pdf…
  342. # [05:55] <nessy> that's a along public holiday!
  343. # [05:56] <Hixie> boblet: nah, i think we have all we need on that one, thanks
  344. # [05:56] <boblet> p187 BML element subset of XHTML
  345. # [05:56] <boblet> p195 BML CSS2 properties subset
  346. # [05:56] <boblet> aah ok
  347. # [05:56] <boblet> hth eh :)
  348. # [05:57] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@adsl-99-24-216-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  349. # [05:57] <Hixie> indeed, thanks!
  350. # [06:01] <theMadness> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/ is getting cuter by the day.
  351. # [06:03] <boblet> nessy: that’s why they call it *Golden* week ;-)
  352. # [06:04] <nessy> can I have Golden Week, too, plz thx
  353. # [06:04] <nessy> (you just need to find an appropriate lol-cat for it ;)
  354. # [06:08] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net)
  355. # [06:11] <theMadness> Finding a japanese cat with a golden coin shouldn't be too hard.
  356. # [06:12] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@75-37-194-175.lightspeed.lsatca.sbcglobal.net) (Client Quit)
  357. # [06:13] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  358. # [06:13] <boblet> Hixie: one page down on http://www.urusoft.net/products.php?cat=vp&lang=1
  359. # [06:13] <boblet> “59 supported formats”
  360. # [06:13] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
  361. # [06:17] <boblet> also http://www.eztitles.com/index.php?page=48 and http://captionmax.com/services/tape-delivery-formats/
  362. # [06:17] <boblet> gotta eat now, sorry :)
  363. # [06:17] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  364. # [06:25] <boblet> DVD Maestro (now obsolete) used Maestro (.son/.spf) image-based subtitles apparently. here’s a code snippet: http://www.xucker.jpn.org/extension/son.html
  365. # [06:25] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
  366. # [06:25] <boblet> another one to add to the other formats list
  367. # [06:43] * Joins: alt-dot-net-geek (~alt-dot-n@adsl-156-37-246.mem.bellsouth.net)
  368. # [06:49] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  369. # [06:50] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-204-227.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
  370. # [06:52] * Quits: alt-dot-net-geek (~alt-dot-n@adsl-156-37-246.mem.bellsouth.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  371. # [06:53] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  372. # [06:56] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  373. # [07:11] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  374. # [07:13] * Quits: drunknbass (~drunknbas@cpe-76-173-195-145.socal.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  375. # [07:17] <wycats> Hixie: http://yehudakatz.com/2010/04/30/the-web-doesnt-suck-browsers-are-innovating
  376. # [07:17] <wycats> http://twitter.com/joehewitt/status/13172424641
  377. # [07:26] * Quits: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  378. # [07:32] * Quits: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-xlnsyerbmsrbiyzm) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  379. # [07:35] * Joins: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105)
  380. # [07:36] <kennyluck> boblet, I am interested in the bopomofo thing, since I am a Taiwanese. Is there any thing I can help?
  381. # [07:37] * Joins: jlebar (~jlebar@128.12.22.184)
  382. # [07:38] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  383. # [07:40] <boblet> kennyluck: I’d be really interested in examples of content on the web using bopomofo, especially if it uses ruby
  384. # [07:41] <boblet> kennyluck: apart from that some photos of bopomofo in real life would be great, to get an idea of typical formatting
  385. # [07:41] <kennyluck> boblet, I asked this question to my Chinese friends once, but I am afraid there might be no examples.
  386. # [07:41] <boblet> kennyluck: did you see the screenshot I posted? any mistakes?
  387. # [07:41] <kennyluck> Hmm... I can certainly get some pictures.
  388. # [07:42] <kennyluck> Yes, well not presentational ones, but a logical one.
  389. # [07:42] * Joins: boogyman_ (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  390. # [07:42] <boblet> please tell me
  391. # [07:42] <kennyluck> The characters are in simplified Chinese, where bopomofo is usually for traditional Chinese. :)
  392. # [07:42] <boblet> (it’s hard to make examples in a language you don’t understand ;-) )
  393. # [07:43] * Joins: boogyman__ (~boogy@cpe-173-168-233-248.tampabay.res.rr.com)
  394. # [07:43] <kennyluck> boblet
  395. # [07:43] * Quits: boogyman__ (~boogy@cpe-173-168-233-248.tampabay.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  396. # [07:43] <boblet> can you tell me the traditional Chinese characters? also is the bopomofo correct?
  397. # [07:43] * Quits: wycats (~wycats@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net) (Quit: wycats)
  398. # [07:44] <kennyluck> Hmm... the traditional character for the third one is 無
  399. # [07:44] <kennyluck> Also, I guess usually the bopomofo would be vertically aligned.
  400. # [07:45] * Joins: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115)
  401. # [07:45] <kennyluck> I mean, for example, the bopomofo for the fifth character should be put down a little bit, so that it's in the middle, boblet.
  402. # [07:46] <boblet> kennyluck: damn, I thought you might say that :)
  403. # [07:46] <kennyluck> :)
  404. # [07:46] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  405. # [07:46] <boblet> wow, surprised 無 became 无
  406. # [07:46] <kennyluck> huh? what do you mean, boblet?
  407. # [07:47] <kennyluck> Are you using piying for typing, maybe?
  408. # [07:47] <boblet> “the traditional character for the third one is 無” ? you mean 无 → 無 right?
  409. # [07:47] * Quits: boogyman_ (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  410. # [07:47] <kennyluck> Yup
  411. # [07:48] <boblet> kennyluck: no, c&p from http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Chinese_proverbs
  412. # [07:48] <kennyluck> Ah, I see. Simplified Chinese is much more popular obviously.
  413. # [07:49] * Quits: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  414. # [07:52] * Joins: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105)
  415. # [07:52] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba@181.63.138.58.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  416. # [07:52] <kennyluck> boblet, a picture of a children newspaper in Taiwan: http://wss.djes.tp.edu.tw/report/Lists/Photos/951222%E5%9C%8B%E8%AA%9E%E6%97%A5%E5%A0%B1/%E5%9C%8B%E8%AA%9E%E6%97%A5%E5%A0%B1.jpg
  417. # [07:53] <kennyluck> Unlike in Japan, bopomofo is for children, so there would rarely be any examples.
  418. # [07:55] <boblet> updated pic http://oli-studio.com/temp/bopomofo.png looking ok now?
  419. # [07:55] * Joins: Traveler8 (~traveler@host103-219-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  420. # [07:55] <Traveler8> hi
  421. # [07:55] <Traveler8> Is it ok if I use a heading inside an ul?
  422. # [07:55] <boblet> Traveler8: only if it’s inside a li element
  423. # [07:55] <Traveler8> like <ul><h2>title</h2><li>some text</li></ul>
  424. # [07:56] <Traveler8> so then I have to use a <p> for the other li?
  425. # [07:56] <kennyluck> oops, sorry again, boble, but 难 → 難. The alignment looks great!
  426. # [07:56] <kennyluck> boblet
  427. # [07:56] <boblet> Traveler8: nope. split your lists and put headings between, make ‘rich’ list items (eg <li><h2>…</h2><p>…</p></li>) or nest lists
  428. # [07:57] <Traveler8> i see
  429. # [07:57] <Traveler8> yeah that makes a lot of sense
  430. # [07:57] <boblet> Traveler8: be wary of using lists for formatting though. start by looking at your content and deciding what each piece is. work out styling/CSS *after* markup
  431. # [07:57] <boblet> kennyluck: thanks…
  432. # [08:00] * Joins: rauchg (~rauchg@190.225.68.93)
  433. # [08:00] <boblet> kennyluck: btw I’d say that furigana is for kids too, as there aren’t many kanji outside the 3000~ recommended ones used in mainstream media. although no argument that Chinese readers can definitely claim superiority in the kanji reading dept ;-)
  434. # [08:01] <Traveler8> what if i use <ul><h2></h2><li></li></ul>
  435. # [08:01] <boblet> kennyluck: ok, final check please!
  436. # [08:01] <boblet> Traveler8: you said that already
  437. # [08:01] <Traveler8> oh right lol
  438. # [08:01] <Traveler8> sorry
  439. # [08:01] <boblet> alternately try it and c&p into a validator
  440. # [08:02] <kennyluck> boblet, perfect now.
  441. # [08:02] * Quits: Traveler8 (~traveler@host103-219-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: Java user signed off)
  442. # [08:02] <boblet> kennyluck: sweet. any larger examples of bopomofo? eg kids’ flashcards or something… ideally something culturally cool like a popular manga or something
  443. # [08:03] <kennyluck> boblet, I simply wanted to say I would never see a bopomofo on a newspaper or a novel, so the need for ruby is little. But sometimes you still see furigana in a novel if the character's name is too unusual.
  444. # [08:03] <kennyluck> Hmm..
  445. # [08:03] <boblet> kennyluck: true true
  446. # [08:04] <kennyluck> I can't remember seeing bopomofo on a manga.
  447. # [08:04] <boblet> my pinyin example is talking about Grass Mud Horse (草泥馬) so I’d prefer to not be too boring with bopomofo ;-)
  448. # [08:04] <kennyluck> Is that a child story? I am not to familiar with all the literature stuff :)
  449. # [08:05] <kennyluck> s/to/that/
  450. # [08:05] <boblet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_mud_horse (a little texturally NSFW)
  451. # [08:06] <kennyluck> lol, I see what this is now. Mainland Chinsese people are certainly creative.
  452. # [08:07] <boblet> oh gotta go. bbl — kennyluck leave anything for me and I’ll check when I get back (ruby article to publish on http://html5doctor.com soon)
  453. # [08:07] <kennyluck> Ok, cool!
  454. # [08:07] <boblet> kennyluck: lol. indeed!
  455. # [08:15] <kennyluck> boblet, I am a bit interested in how ruby deals with the case that you use bopomofo for writing and not just for annotating Chinese characters. Such as in http://pic.pimg.tw/hinlin/4b2f1500b2a23.jpg
  456. # [08:17] <kennyluck> I mean, is there ruby use case for *grouping* characters. Japanese and Chinese don't use space for splitting character groups, you know.
  457. # [08:23] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Rik`)
  458. # [08:25] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  459. # [08:37] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  460. # [08:39] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: Leaving)
  461. # [08:40] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  462. # [08:44] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  463. # [08:44] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  464. # [08:53] <boblet> kennyluck: interesting—hadn’t thought of that, as Japanese (what I’m familiar with) generally separates by the change from kanji to kana. Japanese childrens’ books with no kanji separate hiragana words using spaces
  465. # [08:53] <boblet> kennyluck: also I think your use case is probably not applicable for ruby, as ruby is about annotating base text with ruby text, and if you only use bopomofo there’s not base/ruby text distinction
  466. # [08:55] <boblet> kennyluck: if you can please tell me more about what you’d like to do for grouping characters, how you’d use it, and give some links to examples of this ‘in the wild’ (if possible)
  467. # [09:00] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-65-22.sibtele.com)
  468. # [09:02] <kennyluck> boblet, well, huh, I am not familiar with Ruby, just wonder whether this will be a use case so that the space separating words would be automatically generated by a custom CSS style sheet or something.
  469. # [09:04] <boblet> kennyluck: the easiest way would be using the space bar to add spaces ;-)
  470. # [09:04] <kennyluck> :)
  471. # [09:05] <kennyluck> boblet, I agree with you (ref. this is irrelevant to Ruby). But...what about the character for annotating pronunciation in bopomofo? I thought this is a case for double ruby?
  472. # [09:06] <kennyluck> Or complex ruby is the right term?
  473. # [09:06] <boblet> if we only have kanji and bopomofo then simple ruby should be enough
  474. # [09:08] <boblet> if we have kanji, bopomofo and pinyin then nested simple ruby will probably be enough
  475. # [09:09] <boblet> atm the only thing complex ruby would help with is Korean, which has ruby text *before* base text, and base text is in brackets (opposite to normal)
  476. # [09:13] * Joins: wycats (~wycats@c-69-181-216-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  477. # [09:14] <boblet> kennyluck: does that sound good? or is there something else you want to do?
  478. # [09:15] <kennyluck> boblet, I am now investigating into the CSS writing-mode attribute to see how it looks if all the characters are bopomofo.
  479. # [09:16] <kennyluck> And the writing-mode vertical.
  480. # [09:16] <boblet> kennyluck: only works in IE. IE8 is best
  481. # [09:16] <kennyluck> OK, gave up. I am in Mac osX.
  482. # [09:16] <kennyluck> sigh.
  483. # [09:17] <boblet> kennyluck: still, nice that IE actually supports something eh :)
  484. # [09:17] <boblet> kennyluck: but if you have comments on how you think it *should* work, that would be good too!
  485. # [09:18] <kennyluck> Yeah, I think MS people do care about the those i18 stuff. MSDN pages are always language content negotiate able.
  486. # [09:18] <kennyluck> Don't know, I have to make examples to see how messy it is if all the characters are bopomofo
  487. # [09:18] * Joins: JoePeck (~jjp@c-24-130-200-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  488. # [09:19] <kennyluck> Well, it's irrelevant to Ruby, I suppose.
  489. # [09:20] <kennyluck> I thought the tone mark was made by Ruby annotation, but it's not, it seems.
  490. # [09:20] <kennyluck> I mean, alignment of the tone mark.
  491. # [09:20] <boblet> kennyluck: that screenshot was faked using CSS
  492. # [09:20] <kennyluck> Note: The Bopomofo transcription is written in the normal way as part of the ruby text. The user agent is responsible for ensuring the correct relative alignment and positioning of the glyphs, including those corresponding to the tone marks, when displaying as vertical ruby. ( from w3c CSS3 ruby module)
  493. # [09:21] <boblet> yep, that’s one of the issues W3 Style WG was having problems with
  494. # [09:22] <boblet> OSes don’t provide that framework atm, and it’s a lot for a UA to provide
  495. # [09:22] <boblet> afaik
  496. # [09:28] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  497. # [09:34] * Joins: JonathanNeal__ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  498. # [09:37] * Quits: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  499. # [09:40] * Parts: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115)
  500. # [09:43] <theMadness> Sigh, hbo still does browser sniffing.
  501. # [09:44] <Lachy> Sigh. :-( http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/04/30/237238/Steve-Jobs-Hints-At-Theora-Lawsuit
  502. # [09:47] <theMadness> It's the png/gif debacle all over again.
  503. # [09:48] <Lachy> yeah, but significantly worse if any comes of it
  504. # [09:48] <Lachy> At least with GIF, IIRC, the patents only covered the encoding process, which is why browsers could ship the GIF decoders
  505. # [09:48] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  506. # [09:48] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p2062-ipbf37marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  507. # [09:50] <theMadness> And with video people is probably willing to host 2 copies of the encoding.
  508. # [09:51] <theMadness> Possibly both the formats will be in the spec as recommendations.
  509. # [09:54] <Lachy> http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/04/html5-video-in-internet-explorer-9-h264-and-h264-alone.ars
  510. # [09:54] <theMadness> Windows 7 already has some sort of support for it.
  511. # [09:55] <theMadness> Nice summary article tho.
  512. # [09:57] <theMadness> but there's nothing preventing Google from producing a VP8 plugin for Media Foundation, for example. -- heck, they did chrome frame, that should be a cakewalk in comparison.
  513. # [09:58] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-68-114.dynamic.qsc.de)
  514. # [10:01] <theMadness> Also, h264 needs a way more marketable name.
  515. # [10:01] <theMadness> It sounds like a very weird strand of influenza.
  516. # [10:02] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@171-20.ftth.alicecomfortplus.nl)
  517. # [10:08] <nessy> Theora's name is not much better ;)
  518. # [10:08] <theMadness> At least I can remember that. :/
  519. # [10:09] <nessy> but honestly - I don't understand how Steve Jobs can stand up and honestly declare there is a patent pool being put together against Theora, unless he is part of it or knows of something happening - unless of course it's MPEG-LA putting the pool together - that would be active combat then opposed to FUD only - I doubt they will actually go there - might lose them their FUD advantage!
  520. # [10:15] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  521. # [10:16] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  522. # [10:32] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2/20100122095031])
  523. # [10:51] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.217.43)
  524. # [10:51] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  525. # [11:01] * Parts: Creap (~jacob@jacobrask.net)
  526. # [11:04] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  527. # [11:23] * Joins: devc_ (~devc@190.55.122.105)
  528. # [11:23] * Quits: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  529. # [11:26] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  530. # [11:27] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  531. # [11:34] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  532. # [11:36] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-80-9.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  533. # [11:37] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  534. # [11:41] * Quits: JonathanNeal__ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  535. # [11:43] * Quits: JoePeck (~jjp@c-24-130-200-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  536. # [11:43] * Quits: rauchg (~rauchg@190.225.68.93) (Quit: rauchg)
  537. # [11:51] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-72-204-227.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  538. # [12:11] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  539. # [12:26] * Joins: micheil_mbp (~micheil@124-170-199-62.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  540. # [12:29] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-80-9.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  541. # [12:29] * micheil_mbp is now known as micheil
  542. # [12:37] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  543. # [13:12] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  544. # [13:31] * Joins: daedb (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com)
  545. # [13:36] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  546. # [13:42] * Quits: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) (Quit: Coyote finally caught me)
  547. # [13:42] * Joins: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  548. # [13:48] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  549. # [13:53] * Joins: rauchg (~rauchg@190.225.68.93)
  550. # [14:13] * Quits: webben (~benjamin@173-45-238-110.slicehost.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  551. # [14:23] * Quits: devc_ (~devc@190.55.122.105) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  552. # [14:34] * Quits: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol) (Remote host closed the connection)
  553. # [14:42] <Dashiva> "With the adoption of RDFa, we're seeing a very sharp up-tick in the use of xmlns: and Facebook has furthered this by requiring the "fb" namespace in Facebook application markup."
  554. # [14:42] <Dashiva> Why don't we just make prefixes significant already...
  555. # [14:44] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  556. # [14:51] <Lachy> nessy, I wouldn't underestimate the greed and anti-competitive goals of the MPEG-LA. It's their goal to ensure that their codecs are the most widely used, and to stifle innovation and prevent competition in any way they can.
  557. # [14:51] <Lachy> I'm quite sure that the members are searching through their patent portfolios to do anything they can to prevent competition from Theora
  558. # [14:52] <nessy> sure, but I haven't seen MPEG-LA themselves attacking ppl - they are mostly there to collect licensing fees
  559. # [14:52] <nessy> royalties
  560. # [14:55] <Lachy> I expect that's what they plan to do with Theora too, if they put together a patent pool
  561. # [14:56] <Dashiva> Goalposts shifting at the speed of a CPU...
  562. # [14:56] <Lachy> though, it really depends on so many factors and the validity of the patents could be in question, if the In re Bilski supreme court case comes back with the only sensible verdict against software patents
  563. # [14:56] <Dashiva> "These new elements won't be implemented" becomes "They don't do anything useful anyway" returning to "We don't need them because of script libraries"
  564. # [14:58] <Dashiva> It's like that story of the borrowed kettle
  565. # [14:58] <Lachy> what story of the borrowed kettle?
  566. # [14:59] <Dashiva> (1) I never borrowed a kettle from you, (2) I returned it to you unbroken, (3) the kettle was already broken when I got it from you.
  567. # [15:04] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-65-22.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
  568. # [15:09] <Dashiva> What is the sound of progress not happening?
  569. # [15:13] * Joins: jlebar_ (~jlebar@128.12.22.184)
  570. # [15:14] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@128.12.22.184) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  571. # [15:15] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  572. # [15:15] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Excess Flood)
  573. # [15:15] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  574. # [15:15] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Remote host closed the connection)
  575. # [15:27] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  576. # [15:30] * Quits: wycats (~wycats@c-69-181-216-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: wycats)
  577. # [15:45] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@173-203-84-17.static.cloud-ips.com)
  578. # [15:51] <nessy> Lachy: Theora is not the same as MPEG codecs - the MPEG codecs are deliberately developed to include patents from companies and at the end companies put up their hand to claim their stake already knowing they have their stuff in it; a Theora patent pool developed by MPEG-LA would require companies to care enough to determine that Theora actually uses their patents, then get together with other companies to agree on a patent pool; this would ne
  579. # [15:56] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-170-18-159.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  580. # [15:59] * Joins: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105)
  581. # [16:43] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  582. # [16:49] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  583. # [17:12] * Joins: lazni (~lazni@123.24.69.115)
  584. # [17:17] <boblet> anyone involved in Webkit awake? I have a ruby implementation question (what’s the magic sauce)
  585. # [17:35] * Joins: paul_irish_ (~paul_iris@64.119.159.231)
  586. # [17:39] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@EM114-48-18-186.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  587. # [17:52] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  588. # [17:54] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  589. # [17:56] * Joins: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-11-54.dynamic.qsc.de)
  590. # [17:58] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-68-114.dynamic.qsc.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  591. # [17:59] <annevk> 1400 packages
  592. # [17:59] <annevk> mu
  593. # [18:00] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  594. # [18:00] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  595. # [18:04] * Joins: rauchg_ (~rauchg@186.109.205.120)
  596. # [18:04] * Quits: rauchg (~rauchg@190.225.68.93) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  597. # [18:04] * rauchg_ is now known as rauchg
  598. # [18:05] <annevk> 619...
  599. # [18:05] <annevk> prolly not gonna see the end of this before tomorrow
  600. # [18:07] <annevk> nn
  601. # [18:07] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@EM114-48-18-186.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  602. # [18:15] * Quits: maikmerten_ (~maikmerte@port-92-201-11-54.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  603. # [18:22] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  604. # [18:29] * Quits: rauchg (~rauchg@186.109.205.120) (Quit: rauchg)
  605. # [18:32] * Quits: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  606. # [18:42] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  607. # [18:45] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  608. # [18:45] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  609. # [18:45] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  610. # [18:46] * Joins: boogyman_ (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  611. # [18:50] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  612. # [18:51] * Quits: boogyman_ (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  613. # [18:56] * Quits: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  614. # [19:02] * Joins: dustinbrewer (~dustinbre@99-17-42-25.lightspeed.okcbok.sbcglobal.net)
  615. # [19:12] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  616. # [19:17] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p2062-ipbf37marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  617. # [19:29] * Quits: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105) (Quit: devc)
  618. # [19:30] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@12.130.118.122)
  619. # [19:32] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@64.119.159.231) (Remote host closed the connection)
  620. # [19:32] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@64.119.159.231)
  621. # [19:37] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@64.119.159.231) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  622. # [19:50] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231)
  623. # [20:08] * Quits: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  624. # [20:25] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  625. # [20:26] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  626. # [20:27] * Quits: jlebar_ (~jlebar@128.12.22.184) (Remote host closed the connection)
  627. # [20:30] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  628. # [20:33] * Joins: wycats (~wycats@c-69-181-216-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  629. # [20:34] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  630. # [20:35] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  631. # [20:41] * Joins: JoePeck (~jjp@c-24-130-200-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  632. # [20:43] * Joins: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  633. # [20:45] * Joins: rauchg (~rauchg@186.109.205.120)
  634. # [20:54] * Quits: JoePeck (~jjp@c-24-130-200-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  635. # [20:59] * micheil is now known as miksago
  636. # [20:59] * miksago is now known as micheil
  637. # [20:59] * Joins: kcliu (gjliou@linux1.cs.nctu.edu.tw)
  638. # [21:23] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk)
  639. # [21:24] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  640. # [21:54] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  641. # [21:55] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  642. # [22:01] * Quits: shepazutoo (~schepers@adsl-69-163-174.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  643. # [22:08] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-69-163-174.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  644. # [22:22] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  645. # [22:23] * Joins: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105)
  646. # [22:27] * Joins: JoePeck (~jjp@2620:0:1b00:1171:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
  647. # [22:28] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Quit: Leaving)
  648. # [22:32] * Quits: devc (~devc@190.55.122.105) (Quit: devc)
  649. # [22:32] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@12.130.118.122) (Quit: weinig)
  650. # [22:35] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@12.130.118.122)
  651. # [22:36] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  652. # [22:38] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@12.130.118.122) (Client Quit)
  653. # [22:44] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  654. # [22:49] * Joins: steve__ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  655. # [22:50] * steve__ is now known as Steve^
  656. # [22:53] * Joins: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol)
  657. # [22:57] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.217.43) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  658. # [23:04] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-204-227.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
  659. # [23:06] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@EM114-48-18-186.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  660. # [23:07] <Dashiva> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Apr/0031.html
  661. # [23:07] <Dashiva> Is this the third time?
  662. # [23:24] <annevk> o_O
  663. # [23:24] <annevk> Ubuntu is installed by the way, not really any noticeable change
  664. # [23:24] <annevk> although the initial reboot completely failed and it seemed that everything would have been broken
  665. # [23:25] <annevk> but powering down and powering up helped with that
  666. # [23:25] <annevk> not very impressive
  667. # [23:26] <danbri> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpmLrz_lSuE
  668. # [23:27] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-18-186.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  669. # [23:28] <annevk> oh wow
  670. # [23:28] <annevk> my iPod touch works
  671. # [23:30] <annevk> means I can finally extract my music Apple had trapped there
  672. # [23:30] <annevk> win
  673. # [23:30] <annevk> and prolly put new stuff on it too
  674. # [23:34] * Joins: annevk2 (~annevk@EM114-48-11-141.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  675. # [23:34] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@EM114-48-18-186.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  676. # [23:35] <annevk2> hmm, connection just dropped while playing with Ubuntu One
  677. # [23:35] <annevk2> Ubuntu One doesn't seem very good... searching for e.g. "dr dre" gives you a picture of 2001 as first result but clicking that gives a completely different album
  678. # [23:35] <annevk2> makes no sense
  679. # [23:36] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-18-186.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  680. # [23:37] <annevk2> searching for "air" gives "us air force tactical air command band" as first result rather than "air" (which they also have)
  681. # [23:38] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-11-141.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  682. # [23:53] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  683. # [23:57] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  684. # [23:59] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  685. # Session Close: Sun May 02 00:00:01 2010

The end :)