/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 14 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:20] <volkmar> in html4, legend elements had an align attribute they don't have anymore in html5, that's a regression or i'm missing something ?
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  10. # [00:23] <othermaciej> use CSS
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  13. # [00:33] <volkmar> othermaciej: i don't know the policy about backward compatibility but that means someone using "aglign=bottom" (don't know if that's valid) which should do something with HTML4 will do nothing with HTML5
  14. # [00:34] <volkmar> imo, that's an issue
  15. # [00:40] <Hixie> look in the "obsolete features" section
  16. # [00:40] <Hixie> it's defined there
  17. # [00:40] <Hixie> and in the rendering section
  18. # [00:42] <KaOSoFt> Can I do something like this?
  19. # [00:42] <KaOSoFt> <label for="candidato">Primer grupo</label>
  20. # [00:42] <KaOSoFt> <img alt="Fotografías de Tal persona y tal persona" height="240" id="candidato" src="grupo.jpg" width="320" />
  21. # [00:42] <othermaciej> volkmar: it's supported but not valid
  22. # [00:43] <volkmar> othermaciej: ok, then that's the backward policy: supported but not valid
  23. # [00:43] <volkmar> thanks :)
  24. # [00:44] <othermaciej> that's true for a lot of things in HTML5
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  44. # [01:37] <AryehGregor> Adobe is getting really worked up about this Apple thing.
  45. # [01:37] <AryehGregor> It surprises me.
  46. # [01:37] <AryehGregor> Why don't they just avoid having anything to do with Apple and move on? Is a PR campaign going to help them in any way?
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  66. # [02:27] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Maybe the hope is that they will convince Apple customers to demand Flash support so strongly that Apple has to give in
  67. # [02:27] <Philip`> Flash only works because it's ubiquitous, and if it doesn't work on iPhones then it will no longer be ubiquitous and so it will be hugely less useful, and so they have to try hard to fight against that
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  69. # [02:34] <jwm> hehe
  70. # [02:34] <jwm> web tech just needs a kick in the butt
  71. # [02:34] <jwm> adobe should try to just support the web tech instead
  72. # [02:34] <jwm> but whatever
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  176. # [08:45] <gsnedders> Hi y'all.
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  178. # [08:46] <gsnedders> brucel was asking me about changing the "untilted section" in the outliner, on grounds that a lot of people take that to mean that nav/aside/etc. must have headings. Ideas? Thoughts?
  179. # [08:48] <Hixie> for nav, you could call it Navigation instead of Untitled
  180. # [08:48] <nimbu> gsnedders: please do! It makes me feel like my code is incorrect :(
  181. # [08:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: And aside?
  182. # [08:50] <Hixie> gsnedders: Sidebar?
  183. # [08:55] <gsnedders> I guess I could special case article as well
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  185. # [08:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: Untitled Sidebar, or Sidebar? I'm really quite fond of making it explicit why it's giving that text
  186. # [08:57] <Hixie> what's the use case for your tool?
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  188. # [08:59] <gsnedders> People wanting to see what outline their page creates for the purposes of ensuring they get the outline they expect from their markup
  189. # [09:00] <Hixie> i'd expect a UI to not distinguish fake headings from real headings
  190. # [09:01] <Hixie> so if you're tryign to emulate a UI...
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  193. # [09:01] <gsnedders> I'm not sure whether I should emulate a UI or whether I should show explicitly what is fake and what is not for the sake of helping developers…
  194. # [09:02] <Hixie> you could just style fake headings differently
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  215. # [10:07] <hsivonen> whoa. the string "XHTML5" is nowhere to be found in current-work/
  216. # [10:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's up with that?
  217. # [10:08] <Hixie> where should it appear?
  218. # [10:09] <Hixie> The string "HTML5" doesn't really appear either
  219. # [10:09] <Hixie> only in examples, references to other specifications, and text talking about the history or talking about what is or isn't html5
  220. # [10:10] <Hixie> whatwg has moved on from (x)html5
  221. # [10:12] * Quits: magcius (~jstpierre@unaffiliated/magcius) (Remote host closed the connection)
  222. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, I expected it to occur *somewhere*
  223. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: I was looking for spec text binding the definition of "XHTML5" to the content type
  224. # [10:14] <Hixie> XHTML5 is obsolete from the point of view of the whatwg spec
  225. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: I see
  226. # [10:14] <Hixie> so it wouldn't be bound to anything
  227. # [10:14] <Hixie> the content type binds to just "xhtml"
  228. # [10:14] <hsivonen> ok
  229. # [10:15] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#application/xhtml+xml
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  233. # [10:20] <annevk> it should prolly just bind to XML as binding to XHTML has hopefully no special side effects
  234. # [10:20] <Hixie> it pretty much does, see the link above
  235. # [10:22] <annevk> ah right
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  239. # [10:30] <othermaciej> it's a shame that the XHTML entity hack is tied to the doctype instead of the MIME type
  240. # [10:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: binding it to the MIME type would be wrong per XML
  241. # [10:31] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I'm speaking here in terms of what approach would yield more practical benefits, rather than what approach has greater XML-theoretical purity
  242. # [10:31] <hsivonen> my bad
  243. # [10:32] <annevk> volkmar, regarding the form="" attribute email; you can implement things however you wish, as long as they're in line with the spec
  244. # [10:33] * Quits: tyoshino_m (~tyoshino_@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  245. # [10:33] <annevk> MIME type would be annoying too
  246. # [10:33] <annevk> MIME types are wrong for XML in general
  247. # [10:33] <annevk> What MIME type to use if you mix SVG and XHTML?
  248. # [10:34] <Hixie> mime types are wrong in general
  249. # [10:34] <othermaciej> I would pick whichever is the root element
  250. # [10:34] <annevk> If it were to depend on the root element your entities plan would already fail
  251. # [10:34] <Hixie> magic strings would hae been better
  252. # [10:34] <annevk> Yeah
  253. # [10:34] <Hixie> (reliably magic strings, not the sniffing crap we have ended up with)
  254. # [10:34] <othermaciej> in the current environment anyway
  255. # [10:34] <othermaciej> agree, in-band typing is batter
  256. # [10:34] <othermaciej> but it's hard to do effectively and soundly in text-based formats
  257. # [10:35] <othermaciej> *better
  258. # [10:35] <Hixie> not really
  259. # [10:35] <Hixie> look at cache manifests
  260. # [10:35] <Hixie> they haveone
  261. # [10:35] <othermaciej> the collision with text/plain is the problem
  262. # [10:36] <othermaciej> if text/plain had its own distinct magic string the approach would be viable, but it doesn't, and can validly include any imaginable text-based magic string
  263. # [10:39] <Hixie> in this world there is no text/plain
  264. # [10:39] <annevk> <plaintext> :)
  265. # [10:39] <Hixie> since text/plain is a mime type
  266. # [10:40] <annevk> the WebSocket over TLS sounds somewhat nice
  267. # [10:40] <othermaciej> how would one serve plain text content in this world?
  268. # [10:40] <annevk> with a non-TLS-HTTP fallback that's even simpler than with the current handshake
  269. # [10:40] <othermaciej> TLS-only sounds like the sanest solution so far
  270. # [10:40] <othermaciej> I still haven't heard a compelling use case for a non-TLS version
  271. # [10:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: either use <plaintext> as anne suggested, or just rely on it not having a matching magic string
  272. # [10:41] * Hixie is really not eager to require people understand TLS libraries
  273. # [10:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: did you see the 15-line TLS echo server I posted in Python?
  274. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> SPDY is TLS-only, right?
  275. # [10:41] <Hixie> python isn't the only language
  276. # [10:41] <othermaciej> granted, you'd need to understand a tiny bit more TLS to use whatever library's support for connego
  277. # [10:42] <othermaciej> sure, but it's a good example of a modern, well-maintained language of interest to "hobbyists"
  278. # [10:42] <Hixie> the thing with TLS is that to use it safely you can't just rely on a vague understanding
  279. # [10:42] <othermaciej> I imagine Ruby and Perl have libraries that are similar in spirit
  280. # [10:43] <Hixie> you have to worry about certs and all kinds of crap
  281. # [10:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: PHP isn't great for maintaining persistent connections anyway
  282. # [10:43] <Hixie> it's trivial to misconfigure this kind of thing
  283. # [10:43] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  284. # [10:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: php isn't great for much of anything
  285. # [10:43] <othermaciej> Adam's proposal was that wss: would use full TLS for real, and ws: would allow unverified certs and not really be secure
  286. # [10:43] <othermaciej> (thus making it no worse than using a non-SSL solution)
  287. # [10:44] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Client Quit)
  288. # [10:44] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure i could implement websocket as it stands today in pretty much any unix-based language, including probably shell scripting
  289. # [10:44] <othermaciej> of course, a flaw with that is you don't want someone to use ws: to connect to your wss: service
  290. # [10:45] <othermaciej> I'm pretty sure you could
  291. # [10:45] <Hixie> adding TLS as a requirement is several orders of magnitude more complexity
  292. # [10:45] <Hixie> i'm honestly not sure i could use websocket with freepascal for example, if TLS was required
  293. # [10:45] <othermaciej> I haven't studied libraries for other languages enough, but it's clear that in Python using TLS is not a great burden
  294. # [10:46] <othermaciej> freepascal is so far on the long tail of implementation languages that I don't really care if it is easy to use to code a server from scratch
  295. # [10:46] <othermaciej> anyone using it has already chosen to make their life hard
  296. # [10:47] <gregw> othermaciej: I think general TLS libraries are pretty easy to use (a bit more complex on server side). But most are lazy with memory and will lower the barrier to when fancy scalable solutions are needed
  297. # [10:47] <othermaciej> also: a "hobbyist" should never under any circumstances implement a network service in a language with raw memory access
  298. # [10:47] <Hixie> well given that i've written a websocket server in freepascal already, i think it's relevant :-)
  299. # [10:47] * Quits: pesla (~retep@188.202.125.121) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com ))
  300. # [10:47] <othermaciej> maybe relevant to you personally
  301. # [10:47] <Hixie> well yes
  302. # [10:47] <othermaciej> but I think the number of other people in the world who would care is in the single digits
  303. # [10:47] <annevk> Can you deploy the Python TLS on e.g. DreamHost without having to buy things like static IP and certificate nonsense?
  304. # [10:48] <Hixie> i'd probably have to write a binding to the openssl C library
  305. # [10:48] <Hixie> which sounds like a minor circle of hell
  306. # [10:48] <othermaciej> I don't think you need a static IP, and I don't think you have to pay for a cert under Adam's proposal
  307. # [10:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: frankly, the freepascal argument feels a lot like the using Delphi as a reason to make the DOM suck more in the old days
  308. # [10:48] <othermaciej> gee, obscure language doesn't have good availability of libraries? I'm shocked
  309. # [10:48] <hsivonen> s/the/
  310. # [10:48] <hsivonen> s/the//
  311. # [10:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: how would delphi make the DOM suck more?
  312. # [10:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: inability to represent null strings, IIRC
  313. # [10:49] <othermaciej> gregw: I'm curious how much the memory hit is - that seems like useful data
  314. # [10:49] <hsivonen> or something of that nature
  315. # [10:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: delphi can represent null strings fine
  316. # [10:49] <annevk> othermaciej, ok, if it works in DreamHost with e.g. Python or Perl and is relatively straightforward I'm good...
  317. # [10:49] <othermaciej> if the argument is hobbyists who would implement a network protocol themselves, then any language with raw pointers is a red herring
  318. # [10:49] <gregw> with java it is currently 128k extra per connection
  319. # [10:50] <othermaciej> it's a feature if a hobbyist can't figure out how to use such a language to make a network service
  320. # [10:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm not arguing that hobbyists would use freepascal, i'm arguing that i have used freepascal
  321. # [10:50] <gregw> you can be smart and avoid this, but it is a major "circle of hell" to do so
  322. # [10:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: and i personally would find it a pain if we had to use tls
  323. # [10:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: in generaly though, not specifically for my own concerns, i think it's a bit weird to require something as complicated as TLS for a simple protocol
  324. # [10:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2005OctDec/0019.html
  325. # [10:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: much though I love you, I am not sure I can justify implementing an alternate WebSocket handshake solely for your personal convenience
  326. # [10:51] <Hixie> hsivonen: that poster is mistaken
  327. # [10:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  328. # [10:51] <othermaciej> gregw: 128k per connection is not so good
  329. # [10:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: (you can just use a pointer to a string if that's what you want)
  330. # [10:52] <othermaciej> gregw: that would be, like, a gig of memory for 8096 connections
  331. # [10:52] <othermaciej> gregw: is that really right? that seems totally unworkable
  332. # [10:53] <othermaciej> excuse me, 8192
  333. # [10:53] <gregw> the java SSLSession tells you how big your buffers should be and currently reports 64k for in and out.
  334. # [10:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: my own personal convenience isn't why i'm arguing against it
  335. # [10:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's just a minor side-comment
  336. # [10:53] <othermaciej> ok
  337. # [10:53] <gregw> it might be able to be reduced... but not obvious how
  338. # [10:53] <gregw> the solution is to not allocate buffers to connections - but is very complex to do
  339. # [10:54] <gregw> we will be doing this anyway, just for HTTP
  340. # [10:54] <gregw> but it's not something trivial
  341. # [10:54] <gregw> it will push more medium sized servers to complex solutions
  342. # [10:54] * Hixie tries to find out how to do TLS from Perl
  343. # [10:55] <gregw> but there are many servers that will never have more than 100 connections.
  344. # [10:55] <gregw> but even that is a lot of memory for buffers
  345. # [10:55] <othermaciej> does the canonical way to do a non-TLS socket in Java allocate such large buffers?
  346. # [10:55] <gregw> I'm 95% sure... I'll go check the source.... back in a bit
  347. # [10:55] <othermaciej> what are the buffers for?
  348. # [10:56] <othermaciej> I don't know enough Java to do an experiment of measuring the actual memory increase
  349. # [10:56] * Hixie tries to work out from http://search.cpan.org/~sullr/IO-Socket-SSL-1.33/SSL.pm how to say what the next protocol is
  350. # [10:56] * Joins: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  351. # [10:57] <Hixie> i should clarify that if i wasn't worried about amateurs, i'd have never even suggested a non-encrypted version of the protocol
  352. # [10:57] <Hixie> obviously encrypting the connection is a huge win in many respects
  353. # [10:57] <Hixie> but i honestly can't see your average author understanding SSL, even if it's through a library
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  355. # [10:58] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.84.197.172)
  356. # [10:58] <othermaciej> I don't think you need to understand SSL to use it through a (simple enough) library any more than you need to understand TCP to use sockets
  357. # [10:59] <Hixie> there's a lot more complexity in SSL than in TCP
  358. # [10:59] <othermaciej> internally, yes
  359. # [10:59] <othermaciej> exposed to a relatively simple user of the protocol via a library, only a little more, I think
  360. # [11:00] <othermaciej> again, I am struck by the Twisted example
  361. # [11:00] <Hixie> externally too! look at the definition of the Perl IO::Socket::SSL API: http://search.cpan.org/~sullr/IO-Socket-SSL-1.33/SSL.pm#The_Long_of_It_%28Detail%29
  362. # [11:00] <othermaciej> I did not expect it to be so simple
  363. # [11:00] <gregw> othermaciej: the buffers are for separating unecrypted data from encrypted data. The TLS protocol takes discrete chunks of data so that at any given time you can have unconsumed raw data and unflushed encrypted data
  364. # [11:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: is that significantly more complicated than this: http://linux.die.net/man/2/connect
  365. # [11:01] <gregw> plus you need buffers for TLS to do it's own control frames
  366. # [11:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes?
  367. # [11:01] <othermaciej> either the Perl IO::Socket::SSL API or connect(2) are interfaces you would really want to use through a higer-level wrapper
  368. # [11:01] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-36-7.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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  370. # [11:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: IO::Socket::SSL _is_ the higher-level wrapper
  371. # [11:02] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gatek.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  372. # [11:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: the next higher level is just a Web Socket library
  373. # [11:03] <othermaciej> Hixie: it's not a very good wrapper compared to Twisted
  374. # [11:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: that's as may be
  375. # [11:03] <othermaciej> Twisted is higher level but still generic to any kind of network protocol you want to build
  376. # [11:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: though to be honest i haven't been able to find how to tell twisted to declare the next level protocol either
  377. # [11:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't think we should be relying on libraries to make this implementable any more than we should rely on tools to make html authorable
  378. # [11:03] <gregw> othermaciej: initial TLS usage can be simple, but it quickly escalates into key stores and trust stores and certificate chains etc
  379. # [11:03] <Hixie> "the tools will save us" imho is not a valid argument in either case
  380. # [11:04] <othermaciej> I suspect since next_protocol_negotiation is pretty new it hasn't filtered into all the libraries yet
  381. # [11:04] <othermaciej> connect() or gethostbyaddr() are just as much tools as TLS is
  382. # [11:04] <Hixie> i disagree
  383. # [11:04] <othermaciej> you think unix system calls don't count as an API you have to learn?
  384. # [11:05] <Hixie> i think unix system calls are the equivalent of "bare metal" compared to third-party libraries
  385. # [11:05] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  386. # [11:06] <othermaciej> it's not like socket() + listen() + accept() is an intuitive set of calls that everyone will figure out instantly
  387. # [11:06] * Quits: borismus (~borismus@62.48.209.165) (Quit: http://www.borismus.com)
  388. # [11:06] <annevk> is a second handshake really that complicated though?
  389. # [11:06] <othermaciej> the fact that they come with the operating system does not free a developer from the burden of understanding them
  390. # [11:06] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-157-61.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  391. # [11:07] <othermaciej> making it robust against cross-protocol attacks is complicated
  392. # [11:07] <othermaciej> but it can be simpler than it is now if it doesn't have to work over port 80 or on any port shared with an HTTP server
  393. # [11:08] <annevk> in the end it's just a bit of parsing, calculating, and writing something back
  394. # [11:08] <annevk> seems trivial compared to e.g. layout :)
  395. # [11:08] <othermaciej> sure, but I wouldn't add a second layout engine either...
  396. # [11:14] <gregw> othermaciej: I can't find the source in openJDK that handles the crypto buffers - will download full source later and look again. But I am 95% sure it uses the same mechanism underneath and thus would have the same buffer sizes.
  397. # [11:15] <othermaciej> gregw: what I'm really curious about is the comparitive memory overhead of a normal (non-SSL) socket and what exactly the large buffers are for
  398. # [11:15] * Quits: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  399. # [11:16] <gregw> othermaciej: OK, I'll find out the exact numbers over the weekend.
  400. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I see that the Qt port now has MathML support.. is there porting/platform work that yet needs to be done to enable MathML in Safari?
  401. # [11:20] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: not as far as I know
  402. # [11:20] <othermaciej> does it work in nightlies?
  403. # [11:20] * othermaciej can't remember if anyone enabled it by default
  404. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> didn't work in nightlies, not last time I checked
  405. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> but I'll try it again now
  406. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> ah, I was confused
  407. # [11:22] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@a91-154-43-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  408. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> was testing with http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/html5-hacks-demo.html but of course that's not going to work yet in WebKit
  409. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> because it requires MathML-in-text/html support
  410. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> hmm, still doesn't seem to be working though, even for tests served as XML
  411. # [11:25] * Joins: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  412. # [11:25] <othermaciej> it might not be turned on yet
  413. # [11:25] <othermaciej> there is a build flag
  414. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> ok
  415. # [11:27] <annevk> MikeSmith, you look surprisingly weird without the stache :p
  416. # [11:28] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  417. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeh, I'm regretting it already
  418. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> I was in need of a new look, anyway
  419. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> I'm like Madonna that way
  420. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> need to keep my fans from getting bored
  421. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> man, my inbox situation is just out of hand
  422. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> the world should do something about that for me
  423. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> we really need something like a Worldwide Day of No E-mail
  424. # [11:34] <annevk> can't quite place the new look; you went from Texas Ranger to something 70s I think
  425. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> It's a temporary state while I transform into my next manifestation of the Buddha
  426. # [11:35] <annevk> Buddha is a worthy goal
  427. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> Bodhisattva
  428. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> but the bodhisattva look is basically androgynous
  429. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> but I guess I'm too old to attempt that
  430. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> it is appealing though
  431. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://www.tibetanart.us/art/bodhisattva.jpg
  432. # [11:38] <annevk> it seems you might need a stache for that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Siddhartha.jpg
  433. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> excellent
  434. # [11:38] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  435. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> we're making progress
  436. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> Bodhisattva with a beer gut
  437. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> I could probably pull that one off
  438. # [11:41] * MikeSmith gets to the point in webkit-dev archive where "Turning on MathML by Default?" thread took place
  439. # [11:41] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: pesla)
  440. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> thread seems to have died without resolution
  441. # [11:42] <othermaciej> I need a new look too
  442. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> maybe othermaciej could chime in on it
  443. # [11:42] <othermaciej> maybe I should grow a moustache
  444. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I think I saw a picture of you a while back where you had bleached-blonde hair
  445. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> or highlighted or something at least
  446. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: if you grow a mustache, I'll grow mine back to
  447. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> *too
  448. # [11:43] <othermaciej> I have had long black hair, short bleached hair, short hair with high-contrast highlights, red hair...
  449. # [11:43] <annevk> searching on G for moustache yields: http://to55er.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/moustache-2.jpg
  450. # [11:43] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: the problem is when I try to grow one it ooks like a sleazy porno-stache
  451. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: that's the goal
  452. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> that's pretty much how mine looked
  453. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> that's the pinnacle of mustache looks
  454. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> not everybody can do the pornstache
  455. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: that dude's like Yosemite Sam with a bad creative consultant
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  457. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> cool to see possible implementation work on context menus starting
  458. # [11:49] <annevk> in webkit?
  459. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> yeah
  460. # [11:50] <volkmar> annevk: for the form attribute email, i'm not wondering if i have to follow line by line what is described but why the description look much more like implementations details
  461. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> annevk: https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-April/012604.html
  462. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> message from Drew Wilson at Google
  463. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> I wonder how practical it might be to try to put together a graph of some kind to track browser implementation status for HTML5 features
  464. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, did you make any progress on getting the splitter to generate files per-H3 or whatever? (to make the filenames in URLs more relevant)
  465. # [11:54] <annevk> volkmar, the requirements seem relevant to me, but okay
  466. # [11:55] <annevk> MikeSmith, yeah, need surprisingly few changes
  467. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> ah, great
  468. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> what's the URL again?
  469. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> for the multipage complete spec
  470. # [11:55] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/ or http://html5.org/complete/
  471. # [11:55] * MikeSmith looks
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  473. # [11:55] <annevk> do you want to know how to modify spec-splitter.py?
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  475. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> ah, this is great
  476. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, I would like to have the W3C version do the same
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  478. # [11:58] <annevk> so in the functions should_split(e) and get_heading_text_and_id(e)
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  480. # [11:58] <annevk> you want to replace the lines that start with if e.tag == 'div' simply with if e.tag == 'div':
  481. # [11:59] <annevk> so that it no longer does the and operator
  482. # [11:59] <annevk> then you modify split_exceptions with all the additional splits you want to make
  483. # [12:00] <annevk> i'll put my copy somewhere
  484. # [12:01] <annevk> http://html5.org/temp/2010/spec-splitter.txt
  485. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks
  486. # [12:02] <annevk> (but that's all the changes I made iirc)
  487. # [12:02] * MikeSmith goes to hack the w3c splitter copy
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  491. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: hmm, I also see differences in the value of split_exceptions
  492. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> did you change that too?
  493. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> or maybe my copy is older than what you started with from upstream
  494. # [12:04] <annevk> yeah, I added exceptions
  495. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  496. # [12:05] <annevk> to make splits for websockets et al better
  497. # [12:05] <annevk> since you don't have complete you might not need all of them
  498. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> hai
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  510. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks -- I think it worked
  511. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/
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  514. # [12:24] <Philip`> Someone should update the copy in the html5 project SVN if there's changes that ought to be used everywhere
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  516. # [12:26] <annevk> I guess removing the check whether the div has a class of impl in the two functions should be changed everywhere as it breaks certain functionality of split_exceptions
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  523. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> which part of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#association-of-controls-and-forms is about nested forms?
  524. # [12:42] * MikeSmith is looking at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010May/0342.html
  525. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> ah cool -- <progress> actually works in Chrome and Safari now
  526. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> I guess that's probably old new.. I reckon I'm close to a month or more behind on things
  527. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> *news
  528. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> does anybody have a demo page for <progress> ?
  529. # [12:59] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Nested forms are removed in the parser
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  531. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: I see
  532. # [13:00] <Dashiva> <form> a <form> b </form> c </form> becomes <form> a b </form> c
  533. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> OK
  534. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> so I guess the bug commenter wants that to be made more explicit
  535. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> or something
  536. # [13:02] * MikeSmith finds http://trac.webkit.org/export/59461/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/dom/HTMLProgressElement/progress-element.html
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  539. # [13:06] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: I guess, although the form element does specify content model: no form children
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  541. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> yeah
  542. # [13:06] <annevk> via reader recommended: http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/c33my/on_their_way_to_getting_married_a_young_couple_is/ lol
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  546. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Which part of the spec covers handling this in a Web-compatible way: https://bug565432.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=445028 ?
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  549. # [13:39] <annevk> what is the bug hsivonen? URL parsing?
  550. # [13:39] <hsivonen> annevk: failure to remove leading whitespace in the ftp case
  551. # [13:40] <annevk> I believe leading and trailing whitespace is to be trimmed for all URLs
  552. # [13:40] <annevk> though not by the HTML parser, of course
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  555. # [13:41] <hsivonen> annevk: is this in a spec that got moved to the IETF to die?
  556. # [13:42] <annevk> right
  557. # [13:42] * hsivonen is a bit annoyed at failing to find an algorithm by following hyperlinks in the HTML5 spec
  558. # [13:42] <annevk> blame LM
  559. # [13:42] <Dashiva> "The href attribute on a and area elements must have a value that is a valid URL potentially surrounded by spaces. This URL is the destination resource of the hyperlink."
  560. # [13:42] <Dashiva> Doesn't that cover it?
  561. # [13:43] <Dashiva> or is that just author conformance, maybe
  562. # [13:43] <annevk> he thought it would better if HTML5 didn't reference the old splitted out thing from DanC anymore
  563. # [13:43] <annevk> Dashiva, that's authoring conformance
  564. # [13:43] <annevk> Dashiva, you want the part about resolving which reference parsing, etc.
  565. # [13:44] <Dashiva> Oh, right. That split.
  566. # [13:48] <hsivonen> well, this is odd. by code inspection, Gecko seems to do the same thing for both http: and ftp: already...
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  589. # [15:37] <hsivonen> Larry Masinter's response on http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-90-objection-poll/results is interesting
  590. # [15:37] <hsivonen> "Without a clear, acceptable transition plan, the risk is to fragment the web, and to encourage authors to create "best viewed by HTML5" web sites, in a repeat of Browser Wars 1.0."
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  593. # [15:38] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Interesting... as in demonstrating he isn't even trying to understand?
  594. # [15:42] <Lachy> wow. Clearly, he isn't aware of all the effort that went into figuring out how to make these new elements degrade in older browsers
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  596. # [15:43] <Lachy> especially in IE, and the base html5 CSS that a few people have made to give sensible defaults
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  755. # Session Close: Sat May 15 00:00:00 2010

The end :)