/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 01 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [00:54] <roc> where's the HTML5 parser test suite that you can run in a browser?
  18. # [00:55] <Philip`> roc: http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/runner.html
  19. # [00:56] <roc> great thanks
  20. # [00:56] <roc> do you know if it tests SVG-in-HTML?
  21. # [00:57] <Philip`> It includes http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/data/tests11.dat
  22. # [00:57] * roc looks
  23. # [00:57] <Philip`> and http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/data/tests10.dat
  24. # [00:57] <roc> great thanks
  25. # [00:57] <Philip`> which look like SVG tests
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  30. # [01:08] <gsnedders> (I know the harness is a horrible hack, but it was done as such to get it working somewhat in all browsers, inc. Firefox just after the HTML5 Parser merge which had some odd, fun bug)
  31. # [01:09] <roc> it's great
  32. # [01:11] <gsnedders> roc: Try running a single test case in it :)
  33. # [01:12] * gsnedders can't remember half his gripes with it, but he has plenty
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  47. # [02:50] <nessy> foolip: does Opera fire the progress event on video elements?
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  82. # [05:15] <foolip> nessy: yes, as per spec about the timing
  83. # [05:15] <foolip> last I checked anyway :)
  84. # [05:16] <nessy> yeah - about to write you a bug report :)
  85. # [05:16] <nessy> I think onprogress works, but not addEventListener
  86. # [05:16] <nessy> but then, it's really hard to test because after every test I have to change the file name, because Opera has buffered it and a shift-reload doesn't reload the video resource
  87. # [05:17] <nessy> I have the same problem with Chrome, incidentally
  88. # [05:17] <nessy> that's at least one bug ;)
  89. # [05:18] <nessy> actually - ditch that - it's only the reloading that doesn't work
  90. # [05:18] <nessy> progress events work
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  94. # [05:21] <foolip> nessy: use a HTTP server and set the source to URL+'?'+something random
  95. # [05:22] <nessy> good idea
  96. # [05:22] <foolip> is it Math.random() perhaps?
  97. # [05:22] <nessy> still, it would be nice if shift-reload on the page ditched the buffered media resource
  98. # [05:22] <foolip> anyway, that's what zcorpan does
  99. # [05:22] <nessy> Firefox does that
  100. # [05:22] <foolip> Opera doesn't have a special reload I think
  101. # [05:22] <foolip> at least I never found one
  102. # [05:23] <nessy> well, I can reload the resource with shift-click on the reload button
  103. # [05:23] <nessy> also, I can remove all other elements from cache in "Tools"->"Delete private data…"
  104. # [05:23] <nessy> except for media resources
  105. # [05:28] <foolip> oh, that *is* a bug
  106. # [05:28] <foolip> can you file one at http://bugs.opera.com ?
  107. # [05:29] <nessy> ok
  108. # [05:30] <nessy> and webkit is next …. :(
  109. # [05:32] <nessy> gah, seems impossible for me to get an account there :(
  110. # [05:32] <nessy> will try the wizard ...
  111. # [05:35] <jwm> hehe
  112. # [05:36] <jwm> amazing how many opera people are in whatwg
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  114. # [05:40] <nessy> jwm: I am using all browsers :)
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  117. # [05:47] <MikeSmithX> jwm: it's not amazing if you consider how much market capital Opera has
  118. # [05:48] <foolip> we like standards, etc etc :)
  119. # [05:48] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
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  122. # [05:53] <jwm> MikeSmith: less than all other browsers?
  123. # [05:53] <jwm> hehe
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  126. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> jwm: inversely proportional
  127. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> little-known axiom
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  133. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> what are some synonyms for the word "encode"?
  134. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> in the general sense
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  136. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> ok, encrypt is close I guess
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  167. # [09:10] <zcorpan_> foolip: when are you moving?
  168. # [09:10] <hsivonen> how up-to-date is html5lib these days?
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  174. # [09:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: According to the existing testcases it's not that bad
  175. # [09:34] <jgraham> A couple of patches haven't been pushed to google code
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  177. # [09:39] <hsivonen> jgraham: OK. I'm going to advertise it to the SVG WG then
  178. # [09:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: it has SVG support, right?
  179. # [09:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: Right
  180. # [09:41] <jgraham> From memory the missing things is the recent change to <button> or something
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  182. # [09:41] <jgraham> s/things/thing/
  183. # [09:42] <hsivonen> ok
  184. # [09:43] <annevk> the SVG minutes didn't consider html5lib to be a real implementation
  185. # [09:44] <annevk> if you're talking about that
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  189. # [09:57] * jgraham wonders what was being discussed
  190. # [09:58] <annevk> read it and weep: http://www.w3.org/2010/05/31-svg-minutes.html
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  193. # [10:01] <jgraham> Sigh
  194. # [10:02] <jgraham> No one noticed that webkit are implementing then?
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  197. # [10:10] <annevk> dunno, roc pointed that out on the list this morning
  198. # [10:11] <annevk> btw, I don't think anything will actually happen
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  200. # [10:14] * hsivonen just followed up to roc's email
  201. # [10:16] * ayo is now known as aho
  202. # [10:16] <hsivonen> the "spec X is not done" mentality *within* the W3C is so bizarre
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  207. # [10:34] <foolip> zcorpan_: as soon as I'm back in sweden, tillträde is July 5 I think
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  209. # [10:39] <zcorpan_> foolip: ok. fun :)
  210. # [10:40] <zcorpan_> foolip: if i go back to video work, i still have a reason to go to göteborg then :P
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  212. # [10:41] <jgraham> foolip: You are moving? That's sad :(
  213. # [10:41] <jgraham> Well I mean it is hopefully nice for you
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  215. # [10:42] <foolip> I'm quite thrilled
  216. # [10:43] <foolip> zcorpan_: you're always welcome to work on video
  217. # [10:43] <jgraham> To be leaving Linköping?
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  219. # [10:45] <foolip> jgraham: Honestly, yes. Outside of work there's nothing I enjoy about Linköping.
  220. # [10:46] <jgraham> Well yeah I would hardly recommend it as a holiday destination
  221. # [10:48] <foolip> Most importantly, I think my wife will like Göteborg better.
  222. # [10:48] <foolip> More people. People are rare in Sweden...
  223. # [10:49] * Parts: davidhund_ (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
  224. # [10:49] <jgraham> Not stockholm then?
  225. # [10:50] <foolip> No, Stockholm is the capital and thus clearly sucks, as I am not from the capital.
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  227. # [10:50] <foolip> That's the theory anyway :)
  228. # [10:50] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  229. # [10:50] <foolip> Also, they talk funny.
  230. # [10:51] <jgraham> That makes no sense
  231. # [10:51] <annevk> foolip, that goes for all of Sweden, I have to say
  232. # [10:51] <foolip> Haha
  233. # [10:51] <zcorpan_> they talk funny in göteborg too
  234. # [10:51] <hsivonen> Is there an Opera office in Stockholm?
  235. # [10:51] <jgraham> But sure Göteborg is nice
  236. # [10:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: A tiny one. Two engineers and some sales guys
  237. # [10:51] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yes
  238. # [10:52] <hsivonen> ok
  239. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> there's an office in örebro also
  240. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> a tinier one
  241. # [10:52] <jgraham> zcorpan_: You don't count as "an office"
  242. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> jgraham: :(
  243. # [10:52] <jgraham> One person is "working from home" You need two people to make an office
  244. # [10:53] <jgraham> Unless you are actually not working from home I guess
  245. # [10:54] <annevk> if Rijk is actually in wijk bij duurstede maybe we should petition for a Dutch office here in Utrecht
  246. # [10:59] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gatek.mh.bbc.co.uk)
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  250. # [11:10] <hsivonen> I wonder what version number I should give to the next release of the V.nu parser...
  251. # [11:10] * Joins: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
  252. # [11:10] <hsivonen> It should be 1.3 at minimum and I don't want to go all the way to 2.0 yet
  253. # [11:11] <hsivonen> possible choices: 1.3, 1.5 and 1.9
  254. # [11:13] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  256. # [11:15] <annevk> just do 1.3 then
  257. # [11:15] <annevk> you're not in competition (yet) so there's no reason to inflate your numbers
  258. # [11:16] * Parts: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
  259. # [11:16] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  260. # [11:19] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. makes sense
  261. # [11:19] <hsivonen> I'm thinking of going to 2.0 when I add a sanitizer
  262. # [11:22] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-67-180-92-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  263. # [11:23] * Joins: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi)
  264. # [11:24] <jgraham> Make it converge on the golden ratio
  265. # [11:25] <annevk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaT7thTxyq8 is really funny
  266. # [11:26] <annevk> for sure our marketing department has their highlights
  267. # [11:26] <hsivonen> New thing I learned today: Nautilus caches the file listings on samba mounts for days and doesn't show new files without clicking the reload button
  268. # [11:26] <hsivonen> FAIL
  269. # [11:32] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net)
  270. # [11:32] <annevk> what happened to publishing new drafts?
  271. # [11:32] <annevk> did someone object in private or so or are all the chairs on holiday break?
  272. # [11:32] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  278. # [11:39] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2010AprJun/0101.html (W3C Member-only) (doesn't provide an answer to the above question but is interesting)
  279. # [11:40] * Joins: danbri_ (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
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  281. # [11:43] <Dashiva> annevk, you tease
  282. # [11:46] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  283. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> "Potato slow. Opera fast." is great
  284. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> who are the dudes in the video, I wonder?
  285. # [11:48] <zcorpan_> Odd & Even
  286. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: nobody privately objected to publishing new drafts, btw
  287. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: hey!
  288. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> I wanted to bug you about something
  289. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> IRI checking
  290. # [11:49] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i know
  291. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  292. # [11:50] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-134-111-205.range86-134.btcentralplus.com)
  293. # [11:50] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: the messages look nice, but i don't have time right now to write tests
  294. # [11:51] * zcorpan_ is eating websocket cookies
  295. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> ok, no oproblem
  296. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> *problem (no o)
  297. # [11:51] * Joins: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi)
  298. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, I figured you were still in Websocket Wonderland for a while
  299. # [11:51] * annevk is sort of curious what Hixie is up to
  300. # [11:52] * jgraham is sort of curious what the chairs are up to
  301. # [11:53] * hsivonen wonders if the chairs noticed that Gecko, WebKit and Dreamweaver made progress on implementing elements proposed for removal since the start of the survey
  302. # [11:54] <annevk> at least one of them should have noticed stuff landing in WebKit :)
  303. # [11:54] <hsivonen> not to suggest that that's in any way relevant to Decisions, of course. ;-)
  304. # [11:55] <annevk> depending on the outcome of the decision, we may have came up with a few more <embed>-like elements
  305. # [11:56] <annevk> with as difference that these have a proper specification
  306. # [11:56] <hsivonen> annevk: do you mean elements supported by browsers and Adobe's authoring tools but not the spec?
  307. # [11:57] <zcorpan_> damned browsers making up their own tags
  308. # [11:57] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah
  309. # [11:57] <annevk> with "the spec" being the "the spec the W3C publishes"
  310. # [11:57] <jgraham> If these decisions don't keep the elements then the HTMLWG deserves to become a laughing stock
  311. # [11:58] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-19-235.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
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  314. # [12:00] <Dashiva> You can't really blame the WG for chair decisions, can you? Well, and the people who create the issues.
  315. # [12:03] <Philip`> You can blame the WG for putting up with it
  316. # [12:03] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@193.191.8.29)
  317. # [12:03] <jgraham> We could have a revolution
  318. # [12:03] <Philip`> The W3C and the chairs only have authority because people choose to give it to them
  319. # [12:04] <jgraham> With pitchforks and torches and things
  320. # [12:04] <annevk> Revolution is XHTML2
  321. # [12:04] <jgraham> Although those typically end with the revolutionary leader dyning in an unpleasant way, so if anyone asks it was Philip`'s idea
  322. # [12:04] <annevk> Though from a W3C perspective maybe HTML5 is indeed revolution... Strange world.
  323. # [12:04] <jgraham> *dying
  324. # [12:04] <Dashiva> annevk: That depends on what you revolt _against_
  325. # [12:05] <Dashiva> You could say XHTML2 was a revolution against HTML, and HTML5 is a revolution against XHTML2
  326. # [12:05] <annevk> What if you just wanna evolve?
  327. # [12:06] <Philip`> The WG members could form a new working group that's entirely independent of the W3C with its own non-consensus model for making decisions and that develops its own specification called HTML5
  328. # [12:06] <Dashiva> That's a question of authority, I suppose
  329. # [12:06] <Philip`> and so it's their fault if they choose to work within the existing system instead
  330. # [12:06] <Dashiva> From the W3C viewpoint, I'm sure XHTML2 _was_ evolution
  331. # [12:07] <annevk> From miles high it may indeed seem that way
  332. # [12:08] <aho> i liked xhtml2's "hx"
  333. # [12:08] <aho> using h1 (etc) in conjunction with nested sections is sorta weird
  334. # [12:08] <annevk> AlexD keeps it up: "HTML5 is vapourware _until_ the spec. reaches recommendation status."
  335. # [12:09] <jgraham> aho: Yeah but it is kinda broken because you can still use <h> and <h1> in the same document
  336. # [12:09] <annevk> vapourware: "New software that has been announced or marketed but has not been produced."
  337. # [12:09] <jgraham> This is like the opposite of vapourware
  338. # [12:09] <jgraham> We haven't announce it is done but it is still beiong produced
  339. # [12:09] <aho> jgraham, still... i'd like to point out that this is a section-nesting heading and not a regular one
  340. # [12:09] <Dashiva> solidware?
  341. # [12:10] <jgraham> aho: They are all just headings
  342. # [12:10] <aho> using a weight-free heading would do the trick
  343. # [12:10] <annevk> Guess I should stop... http://xkcd.com/386/
  344. # [12:10] <aho> jgraham, yea... they are all just tags (?) :>
  345. # [12:12] <aho> i just liked that there was some heading which indicated that its intended weight depends on the section nesting
  346. # [12:12] <Dashiva> aho: Isn't that obvious, though? Since h1 would only be at the very top of the document normally
  347. # [12:12] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  348. # [12:12] <aho> and tables are normally only used for tabular data? :D
  349. # [12:14] <annevk> aho, by that argument we should have <table2> which will be only used correctly, which of course is nonsense
  350. # [12:14] * Quits: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  351. # [12:14] <jgraham> Dashiva: I think something like LiquidCrystalWare would be better since it appears all over the place but the theory is still not complete
  352. # [12:14] <aho> bad analogy :>
  353. # [12:15] <jgraham> (of course the theory of any state of matter is not complete but...)
  354. # [12:15] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  355. # [12:15] <annevk> aho, works for me :)
  356. # [12:16] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  358. # [12:17] <Hixie> you know, if the svgwg thinks html5 is vapourware, maybe we should just use the same process as svg 1.2 did
  359. # [12:18] <Hixie> and just stamp html5 as a REC and ignore 10% of the feedback we've gotten, just like they did
  360. # [12:18] <Hixie> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1155235213&count=1
  361. # [12:18] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  362. # [12:18] <Dashiva> Hixie: The rules don't apply to XML languages, you should know that by now
  363. # [12:19] <Hixie> html5 has an xml serialisation!
  364. # [12:19] <Dashiva> A fig leaf, nothing more
  365. # [12:19] <aho> annevk, "Sections may contain headings of any rank, but authors are strongly encouraged to either use only h1 elements, or to use elements of the appropriate rank for the section's nesting level."
  366. # [12:20] <aho> if there were an element for headings without any weight, it would be clear which route you picked
  367. # [12:20] <Dashiva> It would be clear, but for what purpose?
  368. # [12:21] <aho> say there is a doc... and 5 years later some different person writes a new stylesheet
  369. # [12:22] <Dashiva> No problem at all
  370. # [12:23] <aho> there is also no problem with using single letter variables exclusively
  371. # [12:23] <aho> it just takes a bit longer to understand than necessary
  372. # [12:23] <Dashiva> There's a rather significant backwards compatibility problem, for no actual benefit
  373. # [12:23] <annevk> aho, just use <h1>
  374. # [12:24] <annevk> <h2-6> is only if you care about backwards compatibility
  375. # [12:24] <aho> if you use canvas and all those new apis... why would you care about such a small detail?
  376. # [12:24] <annevk> indeed
  377. # [12:24] <annevk> why do you?
  378. # [12:25] <aho> breaking backward copatibility of weight-free headings, that is
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  381. # [12:25] <Dashiva> Because not every page uses canvas?
  382. # [12:26] <aho> article, aside, section, nav... they "break" backwards compatibility the same way
  383. # [12:26] <aho> not really much harm done there
  384. # [12:26] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca)
  385. # [12:26] <Dashiva> Those are different. They _add_ semantics to what is considered meaningless by older browsers
  386. # [12:26] <aho> well, i did like h/hx. that's all :P
  387. # [12:27] <aho> being able to differenciate between weighted headings and weight-free/section-nesting headings doesn't add anything?
  388. # [12:28] <annevk> nope
  389. # [12:28] <aho> wouldn't that make the structure clearer?
  390. # [12:28] <Dashiva> You're the one claiming it does, shouldn't you answer?
  391. # [12:28] <Dashiva> <Dashiva> aho: Isn't that obvious, though? Since h1 would only be at the very top of the document normally
  392. # [12:29] * Joins: Mitsurugi (~mitsu@unaffiliated/mitsurugi)
  393. # [12:32] <Dashiva> Hixie: Last link in that blog post is dead, by the way
  394. # [12:33] <aho> well, imo h/hx:h1-h6 is sorta like span:em/b/strong/i
  395. # [12:33] <aho> i really liked that
  396. # [12:33] <aho> but it's not like this will be added to any spec any time soon
  397. # [12:33] <Hixie> Dashiva: that's even better
  398. # [12:33] <Hixie> Dashiva: so much for stable links at the w3c!
  399. # [12:33] <aho> so, i don't really see why you think it's necessary to discuss this in depth
  400. # [12:33] <Dashiva> Maybe it wasn't cool enough to not change
  401. # [12:35] * Joins: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  402. # [12:36] <Dashiva> aho: Span has no semantics, the proposed hx does.
  403. # [12:36] <aho> yes
  404. # [12:36] <aho> h/hx on its own doesn't have specific weight
  405. # [12:36] <aho> sorta like a td on its own doesn't have much use :>
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  407. # [12:40] <Dashiva> I guess you're just an aho, after all...
  408. # [12:40] <aho> *clap* *clap*
  409. # [12:42] <annevk> Dashiva, Hixie, I guess it is http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/CR-SVGMobile12-20060810/lc3-replies-public.html
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  412. # [12:46] <aho> Dashiva, if you see some hx somewhere, you know it's a heading which relies on section-wrapping. if you see h1, it's either the old kind of heading *or* one which relies on section-wrapping. the hx element doesn't have this kind of ambiguity - and that's something i generally like
  413. # [12:47] <aho> e.g. i like code conventions, because they help getting rid of that stuff
  414. # [12:47] <aho> saves time
  415. # [12:48] <jgraham> aho: I have no idea how you envison that working
  416. # [12:49] <jgraham> What happens with <body><hx><section><hx><section<h1>
  417. # [12:49] <jgraham> (ignore the typo)
  418. # [12:49] <jgraham> Is the <h1> a top level heading or a third level heading
  419. # [12:51] <jgraham> (exactly this use case happens any time a mashup embeds content that uses <h1> in a container that uses <section>)
  420. # [12:53] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  421. # [12:53] <aho> what happens in a mashup that embeds content that uses <h2-6> in a container that uses section? ;>
  422. # [12:55] <annevk> it would just work
  423. # [12:55] <aho> so, that section h4 thing you just embedded will look like what exactly?
  424. # [12:56] <jgraham> aho: The logical outline is well defined
  425. # [12:57] <jgraham> aho: The style will (by default) just depend on the tag name, but that is a CSS limitation taht would be worse if we also had <hx>
  426. # [12:57] <jgraham> Hopefully we will get ::section(n) and so on
  427. # [12:57] <aho> -moz-any() is nice for this stuff .)
  428. # [12:58] <aho> e.g. section any(h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6,hx) { first level heading}
  429. # [12:59] <aho> if it all were hx you wouldn't have to do that though
  430. # [12:59] <jgraham> Right, but make the section a pseudo class that matches all level one sections
  431. # [12:59] <jgraham> aho: It can't all be <hx>
  432. # [13:00] <aho> why not? (if we ignore mashups)
  433. # [13:00] <jgraham> We don't ignore mashups
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  435. # [13:00] <jgraham> If we make invalid assumptions we can prove anything
  436. # [13:00] <aho> i never used any mashup, i never made one, i never will make one
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  438. # [13:00] <aho> i don't even know one popular mashup
  439. # [13:01] <Dashiva> If you aren't making mashups, it's pretty much a non-issue
  440. # [13:01] <jgraham> You never used an online feed reader, for example?
  441. # [13:01] <Dashiva> Mashups are the important case, not something to ignore
  442. # [13:02] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net) (Quit: shepazu)
  443. # [13:03] <aho> aggregators typically process the feeds quite a bit, but they generally don't really work all that well
  444. # [13:06] <jgraham> "process the feeds quite a bit" typically means "do some sanitization". Having to rewrite the heading tags to fit in with the output template is rather different
  445. # [13:07] <aho> well, currently you just have random headings there
  446. # [13:07] <aho> i don't really see how that's super awesome
  447. # [13:07] <aho> <:
  448. # [13:17] <aho> in retrospect i think it would have been better if i hadn't mentioned xhtml2's hx. i hadn't expected this kind of annoying discussion... giving that it's a dead spec n all... oh well :>
  449. # [13:17] <aho> it's nice that html5 picked up section tho (there! i said it) :>
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  461. # [14:19] * hsivonen notes "WebM will be supported by all three major browsers: Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox and Opera" on OMG! UBUNTU!
  462. # [14:19] * danbri_ is now known as danbri
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  465. # [14:19] <Peter`> I'm still wondering what Apple will do with WebM
  466. # [14:20] <Peter`> no word on that I'm assuming?
  467. # [14:20] <Peter`> (Next to Steve Jobs saying he doesn't like it)
  468. # [14:24] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  469. # [14:25] <Dashiva> Of course he doesn't like it, it wasn't invited by him :)
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  479. # [15:01] <Lachy> Peter`, Apple won't support WebM while there is still a percieved risk of patent trolls
  480. # [15:02] <Peter`> Clearity on the legal patent subjects might take months, if not years
  481. # [15:02] <Lachy> they will at least be waiting to see what comes out of the FUD from the MPEG LA, if anything at all. But, they'll likely just maintain the threat for ages, like they have with Theora.
  482. # [15:03] <Lachy> right, so I wouldn't recommend holding your breath for Apple to support it.
  483. # [15:03] <hsivonen> Lachy: citation needed
  484. # [15:03] <Peter`> I'm quite curious about the future and implementation of WebM, specifically now Microsoft is more or less supporting it as well
  485. # [15:04] <Lachy> but I believe there will at least be 3rd party quick time components made available one day, which will enable support in Safari.
  486. # [15:05] <daedb> Apple doesn't even support Vorbis yet, so any official support for VP8 seems incredibly unlikely.
  487. # [15:05] <Peter`> But following Theora and the lack of a formal stance of the company on WebM, different from Steve Jobs' own thoughts, it's still somewhat undefined right now. As hsivonen already said, while it's unlikely, nothing is clear
  488. # [15:05] <hsivonen> It's so frustrating that XiphQT still doesn't have Thusnelda. it would be nice to have WebM support rolled into XiphQT
  489. # [15:06] <hsivonen> Peter`: what have I said?
  490. # [15:06] <Peter`> "citation needed"
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  492. # [15:06] <Lachy> hsivonen, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/20/jobs_on_vp8/
  493. # [15:07] <Lachy> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/21/mpegla_mulls_patent_license_for_webm/
  494. # [15:07] <hsivonen> Peter`: I meant I wanted to see Lachy's source
  495. # [15:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
  496. # [15:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think the Register is extrapolating quite a bit from Steve dropping one URL without commentary
  497. # [15:09] <Lachy> yes, that's true. But it's not too much of a stretch given what Jobs previously said about forming a patent pool around open video codecs
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  499. # [15:10] <Lachy> There was another article I read that was a set of email exchanges between a reporter, Larry Horn from the MPEG LA and, I believe, someone from Xiph, which talked about the FUD that the MPEG LA have maintained for years over theora
  500. # [15:10] <Peter`> hsivonen: alright, sorry :)
  501. # [15:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: well, yeah, anyone can be "looking into" whatever
  502. # [15:13] <hsivonen> (As I understand it, the FUD Monty was referring to wasn't MPEG-LA FUD per se but FUD from the MPEG camp. IIRC, MP3 licenses haven't been managed by MPEG-LA.)
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  504. # [15:14] <Peter`> I'm assuming Google knows what they're doing though, also considering the list of companies who already committed to VP8, there has to be a certain degree of certainty. A chance of submarine patents arising always remains, with any product that's entering an already-existing market
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  506. # [15:16] <hsivonen> when creating a Ubuntu USB installation stick with a large (over 1 GB) persistence file, is the creation of the persistence file supposed to be insanely slow?
  507. # [15:16] <hsivonen> I'm wondering if I have bought a bad USB stick
  508. # [15:17] <hsivonen> also, it seem the progress meter was programmed by the person who came up with the Windows file copy progress meter
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  513. # [15:22] <Lachy> Peter`, IANAL, but I think the number of other companies supporting WebM, many of whom I assume hold numerous patents of their own, give some level of protection because they may hold patents that they can use defensively against others who aggressively attack VP8
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  516. # [15:25] <zcorpan_> http://twitter.com/microft/statuses/15176790401
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  518. # [15:34] <Peter`> Lachy: That's a good point, specifically given that the license states that you cannot file patent claims against Google if you're using the specification. Widely interpreted, one could say that they're using open-source to minimize the chance of patent claims
  519. # [15:34] <Peter`> Then again, IANAL either
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  523. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> can anybody remind me what happened the the "Copy and paste" section of the HTML5 spec?
  524. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> it seems to be commented out in the source now
  525. # [15:40] * mamund_ is now known as mamund
  526. # [15:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it used to define copy and paste in terms of drag and drop
  527. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> ok
  528. # [15:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: then it was pointed out to Hixie that some browser(s?) exposed copy and paste in a distinct way already
  529. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> ah
  530. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> I wonder if there is open bug on it
  531. # [15:44] <hsivonen> What kind of write speed (MB/s) should one expect from a USB stick?
  532. # [15:44] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Varies massively
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  534. # [15:46] <hsivonen> OK, I bought USB sticks that suck
  535. # [15:46] <hsivonen> sigh
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  538. # [15:48] <hsivonen> lesson learned: shop at a computer store. don't rely on office supply stores
  539. # [15:49] <hsivonen> aaargh. now after spending over 2 hours creating the persistence file, it's just starting to create a file system inside the persistence file
  540. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: found http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8800
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  570. # [17:32] <Peter`> MikeSmith (?)/W3C: The link in the latest Twitter message gives a 404 error http://twitter.com/w3c/status/15185050915
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  575. # [17:49] <boblet> anyone into diff and on a Mac should check out www.kaleidoscopeapp.com
  576. # [17:50] * boblet is sad that he prolly fits this category
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  583. # [18:26] * jwalden is surprised he can't find an Opera bug-reporting menu item or UI in Opera itself (not for site bugs, but for Opera bugs)
  584. # [18:27] <Philip`> jwalden: Help -> Support -> Report a bug?
  585. # [18:27] <jwalden> Philip`: more indirect than I'd expected
  586. # [18:27] * jwalden should note this is a beta version
  587. # [18:28] <jwalden> I guess Firefox doesn't have a similar item, so I guess it's not too odd
  588. # [18:30] * jwalden finally got annoyed enough to report http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100405#l-486 now that it's breaking his site's intended rendering
  589. # [18:31] <jwalden> although, big blue background is probably a better rendering than the non-scaled background you get in a browser that doesn't support background-size, if your screen resolution/browser window are large enough
  590. # [18:31] <jwalden> or at least less failtastic
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  665. # [20:43] <variable> .
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  667. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> .?
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  669. # [20:45] <jgraham> .*
  670. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> .{0,5}
  671. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> Hello
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  673. # [20:46] <jgraham> True
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  687. # [21:26] <TabAtkins> Today's surprising spellcheck list omission: "combinations".
  688. # [21:26] <variable> TabAtkins: which speller checker?
  689. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> Firefox on ubuntu.
  690. # [21:27] * jwm_ is now known as jwm
  691. # [21:29] <nielsle> Are webgl and notifications likely to become official html?
  692. # [21:29] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  693. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> I know that Chrome either has them or is implementing them. Can't speak for other browsers.
  694. # [21:31] <gsnedders> WebGL will remain a separate spec, and so will notifications
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  696. # [21:31] <gsnedders> It makes little sense to make them part of the HTML spec, IMO
  697. # [21:31] <gsnedders> But I guess it's a question of what you mean by "official HTML"
  698. # [21:32] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FB51.cable.ziggo.nl)
  699. # [21:33] <nielsle> I meant html as defined by w3c, but I think that I got my answer.
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  714. # [22:08] <jgraham> nielsle: WebGL is not being done at W3C. Noifications I'm not so sure about but only Google seem really interested at the moment
  715. # [22:09] <jgraham> (WebGL is nevertheless becoming a standard; other standards organisations are avaliable, as they would say on the BBC)
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  717. # [22:13] <nielsle> Thank you for the answers. (I am not an expert on all this, but I am not fully convinced that non-standard html is good thing.)
  718. # [22:16] * gsnedders gets caught out by the fact that null does not equal anything in SQL
  719. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> NULL IS NULL
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  721. # [22:17] <ment> badam bam tssss...
  722. # [22:18] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Yeah, found that now
  723. # [22:18] <Dashiva> Just like NaN isNaN()
  724. # [22:20] <gsnedders> How do GROUP BY and joins interact?
  725. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> GROUP BY applies to the joined table.
  726. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> (Unless you've grouped in a subquery, of course.)
  727. # [22:21] <gsnedders> Okay, so it is logical
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  748. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> Does Steve Jobs actually respond to a large fraction of the random mail he receives from the public?
  749. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> Maybe it's just a press corps, but everyone seems to assume that the responses are actually from him.
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  751. # [22:48] <Philip`> AryehGregor: If Santa can reply to all the messages I send him, I'm sure Steve Jobs can
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  753. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> You think Santa doesn't have an elven press corps?
  754. # [22:49] <Philip`> Of course not
  755. # [22:49] <Philip`> Elves don't even exist
  756. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Oh ye of little Christmas faith...
  757. # [22:49] <Philip`> It's just him and Rudolph
  758. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> I have a folk song that clearly contradicts your assertion.
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  779. # Session Close: Wed Jun 02 00:00:00 2010

The end :)