/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-02 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 02 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  4. # [00:03] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  5. # [00:04] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  6. # [00:08] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p2062-ipbf37marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  7. # [00:23] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  8. # [00:23] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  9. # [00:23] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  10. # [00:24] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  11. # [00:26] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Client Quit)
  12. # [00:28] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
  13. # [00:29] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.3.129) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  14. # [00:31] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  15. # [00:35] * Joins: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk)
  16. # [00:53] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-bfxjaaoatmjckgrr) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  17. # [01:07] * Quits: aho (~nya@e180234016.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  18. # [01:08] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  19. # [01:09] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  20. # [01:10] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  21. # [01:10] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  22. # [01:10] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.175.248.91)
  23. # [01:13] <annevk> oh man
  24. # [01:13] <annevk> http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/06/01/thurrott-understanding is brilliant
  25. # [01:14] <annevk> I really dig the whole quote what the expert said before the fact after the fact thing Gruber has going on
  26. # [01:16] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-47-127.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
  27. # [01:17] <annevk> "First Draft of SPARQL 1.1 Federation Extensions Published; Five SPARQL 1.1 Drafts Updated" federation extensions?
  28. # [01:17] <annevk> gotta admit that this sounds pretty serious
  29. # [01:17] <annevk> serious and boring
  30. # [01:26] * Joins: mikl0 (~mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com)
  31. # [01:28] * Joins: mikl0` (~mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com)
  32. # [01:29] * Quits: mikl0` (~mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  33. # [01:35] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  34. # [01:37] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  35. # [01:42] * Joins: cpearce_ (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  36. # [01:44] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  37. # [01:44] * cpearce_ is now known as cpearce
  38. # [01:45] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.62.136)
  39. # [01:52] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  40. # [01:53] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198) (Quit: weinig)
  41. # [01:55] * Joins: MikeSmithXX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-172-63.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  42. # [01:59] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-154-19.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  43. # [02:05] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.175.248.91) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  44. # [02:07] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198)
  45. # [02:08] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  46. # [02:13] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~webmaster@190.24.156.162)
  47. # [02:18] * Joins: borismus (~borismus@bl11-113-51.dsl.telepac.pt)
  48. # [02:23] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-udurlrfbafwlgxmy) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  49. # [02:25] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  50. # [02:25] <mikl0> http://pastebin.com/iLAHWMAR can someone explain this DOM behavior to me?
  51. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> mikl0, browsers do not support the self-closing /> syntax in text/html.
  52. # [02:28] * Joins: tabatkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-vytgihktclcuhkgm)
  53. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> You have to use an explicit closing tag like </firstChild>.
  54. # [02:29] <mikl0> so i must use <firstChild></firstChild>. however if i do XHTML it will work as that does support self closing right?
  55. # [02:30] <Philip`> mikl0: Yes, if by "do XHTML" you mean serving the file as application/xhtml+xml
  56. # [02:30] <Philip`> (not just changing the doctype or the <meta>)
  57. # [02:30] <mikl0> AryehGregor: thanks for always asnwering i learn so much.
  58. # [02:31] <mikl0> Philip`: yes doctype, meta, http header, and .xhtml extension. thanks too Philip`
  59. # [02:31] <tabatkins> Dammit, my computer's broken.
  60. # [02:31] * tabatkins is now known as TabAtkins
  61. # [02:31] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Buy a new one
  62. # [02:32] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  63. # [02:32] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  64. # [02:32] <TabAtkins> "computer" is defined very loosely here. Something between me and the rest of the internet is broken, and causing all of my requests to take a retarded amount of time.
  65. # [02:33] <TabAtkins> And... now it's back.
  66. # [02:33] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, make sure no one on your network is using P2P or other bandwidth-heavy stuff.
  67. # [02:33] <AryehGregor> I saw 600 ms ping recently to my ISP when another computer in the house was making an initial backup to Mozy.
  68. # [02:34] <TabAtkins> I'm on Google's network, so I have no idea how I would check, nor what I would do if they were.
  69. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> Oh, right.
  70. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> I thought you were at home.
  71. # [02:34] <Philip`> I would have thought Google would have enough bandwidth to cope with someone using P2P software
  72. # [02:34] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.18.118) (Quit: ap)
  73. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: You're 3 hours later than me. I'm at work for another half hour.
  74. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> Philip`: One would think so, yes. I suspect it was something crazy related to startup stuff, since I just restarted my computer.
  75. # [02:35] <AryehGregor> Time is meaningless to me. I've gotten up and have not yet gone to bed, that's all I notice.
  76. # [02:36] <AryehGregor> That's a slight exaggeration, but things like "working hours" are certainly meaningless to me.
  77. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> Somehow I was using 6 gigs of RAM between a handful of browser windows doing non-intensive things, and a few idle consoles.
  78. # [02:36] <AryehGregor> o_O
  79. # [02:36] <AryehGregor> Not counting buffers and cache?
  80. # [02:36] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Have you been looking at memory usage bugs?
  81. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Not on purpose. ^_^
  82. # [02:37] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca)
  83. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Anyway, 20 days of uptime, so shrug. Same thing happened after roughly 20 days of uptime previously.
  84. # [02:37] <AryehGregor> What OS?
  85. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> GUbuntu.
  86. # [02:38] <AryehGregor> I had XOrg using 1.5G of memory a while back, but that was after more like 90d of uptime.
  87. # [02:38] <gsnedders> Yeah, I've had that happen too
  88. # [02:40] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Quit: kennyluck)
  89. # [02:41] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.175.248.91)
  90. # [02:42] <AryehGregor> This is why non-memory-managed languages stink. But I guess we have to live with them.
  91. # [02:43] <gsnedders> memory-managed languages stink because their GC tends to have bugs too :)
  92. # [02:47] <TabAtkins> Single source of bugs in an area where the bugs are relevant to the very operation of the component is better than bugs distributed throughout every program that aren't critical to the operation of the programs.
  93. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> Well, I mostly write in PHP. Despite the PHP developers' most strenuous efforts to introduce bugs and outright insanity into all parts of the reference language implementation, it's hard to get memory to leak past the end of a request.
  94. # [02:48] <Philip`> Memory-managed languages don't protect you from poor caching strategies, which is sometimes what causes painful memory usage
  95. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> Well, it's an improvement.
  96. # [02:49] * Quits: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.7a5pre/20100523214636])
  97. # [02:50] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~webmaster@190.24.156.162) (Quit: Leaving)
  98. # [02:55] <Philip`> AryehGregor: It's better than nothing, there's just a danger that people think GC means they no longer have to worry about the lifetimes of allocated objects
  99. # [02:55] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  100. # [02:56] <AryehGregor> From experience, it seems like people don't even notice the GC once they're used to it. It doesn't make them less able to troubleshoot memory usage.
  101. # [02:56] <Philip`> when really you still ought to worry and the GC just means you don't have any explicit end-of-lifetime markers in your code
  102. # [02:56] <AryehGregor> It means that you almost never have to worry about explicitly deallocating things, not never.
  103. # [02:56] <AryehGregor> I've cut memory usage using unset() in PHP before.
  104. # [02:58] * Philip` supposes he's just mildly unhappy with how Eclipse seems to be using 1GB of memory, when he's simply been using it as a fancy text editor for a day
  105. # [03:00] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  106. # [03:01] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  107. # [03:02] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  108. # [03:03] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
  109. # [03:04] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  110. # [03:08] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  111. # [03:09] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  112. # [03:09] * Quits: mikl0 (~mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  113. # [03:12] * AryehGregor has never noticed vim using an appreciable amount of memory.
  114. # [03:21] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  115. # [03:32] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  116. # [03:33] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  117. # [03:34] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp)
  118. # [03:35] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.175.248.91) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  119. # [03:36] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198) (Quit: weinig)
  120. # [03:36] * Quits: MikeSmithXX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-172-63.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  121. # [04:04] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (Quit: boaz)
  122. # [04:18] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  123. # [04:19] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  124. # [04:22] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-vmcqfdifarmbtaxg) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  125. # [04:25] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-45-31.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  126. # [04:27] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-sgdibvwipnfndoqw) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2/20100122095031])
  127. # [04:34] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  128. # [04:37] * Quits: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  129. # [04:50] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: ⌘Q)
  130. # [04:52] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  131. # [04:52] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-47-127.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  132. # [04:56] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  133. # [04:56] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  134. # [04:59] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  135. # [05:03] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  136. # [05:07] * magcius_ is now known as magcius
  137. # [05:08] * Joins: cpearce_ (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  138. # [05:11] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  139. # [05:11] * cpearce_ is now known as cpearce
  140. # [05:13] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  141. # [05:20] * Joins: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison)
  142. # [05:20] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  143. # [05:29] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  144. # [05:30] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  145. # [05:30] * Joins: davidmccabe (~david@host-218-34.resnet.pdx.edu)
  146. # [05:37] * Quits: Henrik`G (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  147. # [05:38] * Joins: cpearce_ (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  148. # [05:39] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  149. # [05:39] * cpearce_ is now known as cpearce
  150. # [05:40] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  151. # [05:48] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  152. # [05:53] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  153. # [05:57] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  154. # [05:57] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  155. # [06:00] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: thxbye)
  156. # [06:01] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Client Quit)
  157. # [06:07] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  158. # [06:08] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  159. # [06:09] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@freenet6.org)
  160. # [06:18] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  161. # [06:38] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  162. # [06:49] * Quits: davidmccabe (~david@host-218-34.resnet.pdx.edu) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  163. # [06:58] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.62.136)
  164. # [06:58] * Joins: davidmccabe (~david@host-218-34.resnet.pdx.edu)
  165. # [07:05] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  166. # [07:10] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Disconnected by services)
  167. # [07:10] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  168. # [07:10] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  169. # [07:15] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  170. # [07:29] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  171. # [07:38] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.246.238)
  172. # [07:39] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  173. # [07:41] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  174. # [07:49] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  175. # [07:54] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  176. # [07:59] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  177. # [08:03] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  178. # [08:04] * Joins: scherkus (~scherkus@c-98-203-232-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  179. # [08:07] * Quits: michaeln (~michaeln@nat/google/x-ssbkigoenvznonsk) (Quit: Leaving.)
  180. # [08:14] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  181. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have a question about if/how to use the v.nu HTML5 parser in conjunction with existing command-line Java apps
  182. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> background is this -
  183. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> if I want to use a different parser with, e.g., Saxon
  184. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> instead of the built-in parser that Saxon uses
  185. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> Aelfred I guess
  186. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> then I can do this:
  187. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> java \
  188. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> -Djavax.xml.parsers.DocumentBuilderFactory=\
  189. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> org.apache.xerces.jaxp.DocumentBuilderFactoryImpl \
  190. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> -Djavax.xml.parsers.SAXParserFactory=\
  191. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> org.apache.xerces.jaxp.SAXParserFactoryImpl \
  192. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> com.icl.saxon.StyleSheet \
  193. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> ...
  194. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> and that'll cause Saxon to use Xerces instead
  195. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> as far as I can tell, I can't currently do that with the v.nu HTML parser, right?
  196. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> so is there some other way I could cause Saxon to use the v.nu parser instead?
  197. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> or could we add support for those properties to the v.nu parser?
  198. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> that's some JAXP thing, right?
  199. # [08:19] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net) (Quit: shepazu)
  200. # [08:22] * MikeSmith takes a look at the XSLT4HTML code for the time being
  201. # [08:32] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
  202. # [08:35] <fantasai> What's the default output encoding for html5lib, utf-8?
  203. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> fantasai: yeah
  204. # [08:36] <fantasai> MikeSmith: or is it the system default encoding?
  205. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> I believe it is utf-8
  206. # [08:37] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  207. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> not whatever the default system encoding is
  208. # [08:38] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.42.179)
  209. # [08:40] * MikeSmith looks at some code
  210. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> hmm, I find "serializer.HTMLSerializer(**kwargs).serialize(tokens, encoding='utf-8')" in code I'm using
  211. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> so maybe it's not actually utf-8 by default
  212. # [08:42] * MikeSmith glances around for help
  213. # [08:44] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
  214. # [08:45] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  215. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> checking the html5lib source, it seems that html5lib/serializer code does not itself set encoding to utf-8
  216. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> fantasai: so I think I was wrong
  217. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> I can't see anywhere in the html5lib code itself where the output encoding is set to utf-8
  218. # [08:53] * Quits: borismus (~borismus@bl11-113-51.dsl.telepac.pt) (Quit: http://www.borismus.com)
  219. # [08:54] * Joins: Mrmil (~ut_ollie@server.ebrana.cz)
  220. # [08:59] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  221. # [09:06] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  222. # [09:09] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  223. # [09:11] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  224. # [09:12] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  225. # [09:15] <Mrmil> Anyone has an idea why wrap="off" for textarea is not present in the spec?
  226. # [09:16] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: it's semantically equivalent to wrap="soft"
  227. # [09:17] <annevk> rendering is defined
  228. # [09:26] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@1503032406.dhcp.dbnet.dk)
  229. # [09:27] <Mrmil> wrap soft/hard doesn't seem to work (or I'm not getting it right), maybe browsers don't support it?
  230. # [09:29] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  231. # [09:32] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  232. # [09:35] * Quits: hamaji (~hamaji@220.109.219.244) (*.net *.split)
  233. # [09:35] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (*.net *.split)
  234. # [09:35] * Quits: salavas (~salavas@h4n1fls31o279.telia.com) (*.net *.split)
  235. # [09:35] * Quits: crash\ (crash@lubyte.de) (*.net *.split)
  236. # [09:38] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  237. # [09:41] * Joins: hamaji (~hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  238. # [09:41] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  239. # [09:41] * Joins: salavas (~salavas@h4n1fls31o279.telia.com)
  240. # [09:41] * Joins: crash\ (crash@lubyte.de)
  241. # [09:43] * Joins: Martijnc` (~Martijnc@91.176.62.136)
  242. # [09:46] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  243. # [09:47] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  244. # [09:48] * Parts: Mrmil (~ut_ollie@server.ebrana.cz)
  245. # [09:57] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-45-31.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  246. # [09:59] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.62.136) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  247. # [10:01] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-215-201.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  248. # [10:01] * Quits: Rich_Clark (~chatzilla@94-193-82-82.zone7.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  249. # [10:01] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  250. # [10:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-215-201.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  251. # [10:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-215-201.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  252. # [10:13] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Rik`)
  253. # [10:13] * Joins: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  254. # [10:14] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  255. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> listening to introductory presentation related to container-based virtualization
  256. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> network namespace isolation
  257. # [10:20] <kennyluck> It looks like a hardware-related talk to me, so I wasn't interested.
  258. # [10:21] * Quits: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  259. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: it's not about software
  260. # [10:25] <kennyluck> OK
  261. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> kernel, socket and routing library code
  262. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> dude is from Tsinghua university
  263. # [10:26] <kennyluck> Ah, it still sounds interesting.
  264. # [10:26] <kennyluck> Yeah, I noticed that, FYI ,there's a Tsuinghua uni. in Taiwan and a Tsuinghua uni. in Mainland China.
  265. # [10:26] <kennyluck> I was wondering which one does he come from.
  266. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> solution slide: "associate each uid with an IP address"
  267. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: from accent, I guess mainland
  268. # [10:27] <kennyluck> Oh, that sounds quite crazy.
  269. # [10:28] <kennyluck> ref. "associate each uid with an IP address"
  270. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> http://www.nrc.tsinghua.edu.cn/7_english/profile/chenmaoke.htm
  271. # [10:33] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  272. # [10:40] <jgraham> So the Decisions seemed to mainly take into account what people said on the poll even though it said not to say anything in the poll unless it wasw not already in a change proposal
  273. # [10:40] <jgraham> Oh, TabAtkins said the same thing on the list
  274. # [10:41] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@193.191.8.29)
  275. # [10:43] <jgraham> and if I understand what Sam said it seems like the weight given to change proposals is asymmetric so only arguments in favour of change are considered
  276. # [10:43] * jgraham is confused
  277. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah, I think the instructions given by the chairs pre-poll and the explanations post-poll don't go well together
  278. # [10:46] <hsivonen> frankly, I'm not at all surprised
  279. # [10:47] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  280. # [10:49] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: maybe next time in addition to submitting a no-change Change Proposal, you should also object to the deletionist Change Proposal by saying that something like "I repeat and raise as objections against this Proposal all the points in favor of no change raised in the no-change Proposal as if fully restated herein"
  281. # [10:50] * Joins: Henrik`G (~hb@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk)
  282. # [10:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: which is why I took the time to file an objection that was slightly different from the points made in the no-change Proposal
  283. # [10:52] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  284. # [10:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: It appears to have been worthwhile. But should have been unnecessary
  285. # [10:56] <hsivonen> In retrospect, I probably should have copied and pasted my objection to other polls too
  286. # [10:56] <hsivonen> just in case
  287. # [11:03] * Quits: scherkus (~scherkus@c-98-203-232-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: lol)
  288. # [11:05] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.253.249)
  289. # [11:06] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
  290. # [11:08] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  291. # [11:11] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
  292. # [11:24] <Hixie> hsivonen, jgraham: you could decode sam's e-mails and figure out what the decisions were? I wasn't even able to penetrate his wishy washy language to work out what to change
  293. # [11:25] <Hixie> btw hsivonen you might want to comment on https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40047
  294. # [11:28] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  295. # [11:35] * Joins: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@CPE-58-175-25-194.mqdl1.lon.bigpond.net.au)
  296. # [11:40] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@p5DDBABE6.dip.t-dialin.net)
  297. # [11:42] <daedb_> Oh yay, there's fun stuff on public-html again. Nice conspiracy theories :D
  298. # [11:44] <Hixie> is there some equivalent of svn blame that will tell me what revisions subsequently _removed_ lines that were checked in at a particular revision?
  299. # [11:45] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  300. # [11:45] * Joins: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  301. # [11:47] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  302. # [11:54] <annevk> Hixie, scan the commit messages? :)
  303. # [11:55] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  304. # [11:55] <Hixie> there are 1000s :-)
  305. # [11:56] <Philip`> grep and a bisect tool?
  306. # [11:57] <Philip`> like http://search.cpan.org/dist/App-SVN-Bisect/bin/svn-bisect
  307. # [11:57] <annevk> you can do an search through them
  308. # [11:58] <Hixie> so "no"? :-)
  309. # [11:58] <jgraham> So if I have <iframe src="javascript:something"> in the source of a document, what happens? How many load events do I get?
  310. # [11:59] <jgraham> (like is there an implicit load of about:blank first?)
  311. # [12:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-215-201.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  312. # [12:06] * Quits: davidmccabe (~david@host-218-34.resnet.pdx.edu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  313. # [12:06] * Quits: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@CPE-58-175-25-194.mqdl1.lon.bigpond.net.au) (Quit: ⌘Q)
  314. # [12:07] <zcorpan_> jgraham: seems browsers differ
  315. # [12:07] * Joins: davidmccabe (~david@host-218-34.resnet.pdx.edu)
  316. # [12:07] <zcorpan_> javascript:void() gives 1 load in opera and chrome, 0 in firefox
  317. # [12:07] <zcorpan_> javascript:'' gives 1 in opera and firefox, 2 in chrome
  318. # [12:08] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Any idea what the spec says, or whether it is defensible?
  319. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> haven't looked at the spec
  320. # [12:12] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  321. # [12:13] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: Leaving)
  322. # [12:13] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  323. # [12:15] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  324. # [12:16] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  325. # [12:18] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
  326. # [12:28] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-64-106.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  327. # [12:32] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@193.191.8.29) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  328. # [12:38] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  329. # [12:38] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  330. # [12:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-64-106.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  331. # [12:56] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  332. # [13:07] * Quits: davidmccabe (~david@host-218-34.resnet.pdx.edu) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  333. # [13:14] * Joins: RiPPER (~jon@athedsl-247277.home.otenet.gr)
  334. # [13:14] * Joins: davidmccabe (~david@host-218-34.resnet.pdx.edu)
  335. # [13:18] * Quits: davidmccabe (~david@host-218-34.resnet.pdx.edu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  336. # [13:18] * Joins: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  337. # [13:19] * Quits: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Client Quit)
  338. # [13:21] * Joins: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  339. # [13:22] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  340. # [13:22] * mhausenblas_ is now known as mhausenblas
  341. # [13:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: regarding https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40047 , I think Gecko may still be blocking on inline scripts if there are pending sheets
  342. # [13:24] <RiPPER> hi
  343. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: actually, I think the spec in now racy in the blocking behavior of inline scripts
  344. # [13:35] <hsivonen> sigh
  345. # [13:36] <Dashiva> The smell of Process in the morning...
  346. # [13:36] <RiPPER> I read somewhere that in html 5 I can use xhtml syntax, is this right?
  347. # [13:37] <Dashiva> No, but some xhtml-isms are conforming
  348. # [13:37] <Dashiva> Like <br/> instead of <br>
  349. # [13:37] <hsivonen> RiPPER: you can 1) use an XML serialization of HTML5 when serving content as application/xhtml+xml or you can 2) use certain XHTMLisms in text/html
  350. # [13:38] <hsivonen> RiPPER: you can't use the whole of XHTML syntax in text/html, though
  351. # [13:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: really? i thought we'd fixed all the racy behaviour...
  352. # [13:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: by inspection, Gecko's implementation sure looks racy...
  353. # [13:40] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  354. # [13:41] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-90-184.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  355. # [13:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: well if the spec is racy, file a bug
  356. # [13:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: the spec isn't racy, it seems. But the spec looks unacceptable for implementation
  357. # [13:44] <Hixie> well, file a bug for that too
  358. # [13:44] <hsivonen> both to me and, it seems, to Eric Seidel per comment #2 in the WebKit bug
  359. # [13:45] <hsivonen> since it would be pretty crazy to spin a nested event loop from within document.write() in order to wait for a style sheet
  360. # [13:45] <hsivonen> I'll file a spec bug
  361. # [13:45] <Hixie> well how else are you going to wait for a style sheet?
  362. # [13:46] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  363. # [13:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: do we know that document.written inline scripts need to wait for sheet for Web compat?
  364. # [13:46] <Hixie> iirc that's what browsers did when i tested it
  365. # [13:47] <Hixie> but who knows
  366. # [13:47] <hsivonen> by inspection, it seems to me that Gecko doesn't do that
  367. # [13:47] <annevk> Gecko used to have synchronous style sheet loading
  368. # [13:47] <Hixie> making things dependent on whether they'd inserted via document.write() or not seems pretty wacky
  369. # [13:48] <hsivonen> my axiom is that nested event loops are wacky
  370. # [13:48] <Hixie> well on a side note, technically the html5 spec doesn't have any nested event loops
  371. # [13:48] <Hixie> but that's neither here nor there
  372. # [13:49] <Hixie> my point is that since we need to spin the event loop for regular <script>s, that boat has sailed
  373. # [13:49] <hsivonen> that doesn't help much, since we are dealing with C++ method call semantics
  374. # [13:49] <hsivonen> so there aren't fancy yields and continuations available
  375. # [13:49] <Hixie> so why make an exception for document.written ones?
  376. # [13:49] <annevk> I think we had the ability for some time to stop script execution when a layout DOM attribute was asked for to be able to fetch the necessary style sheets and compute something... Mostly to work with sites that were depending on the synchronous style sheet loading. I suspect things have changed though. For one Gecko no longer does the synchronous loading...
  377. # [13:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: because for regular scripts you don't need a nested event loop in order to be able to wait for the sheet
  378. # [13:50] <Hixie> without the event loop, the sheet can never load
  379. # [13:50] <Hixie> since the load happens on the event loop
  380. # [13:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: when you tested Gecko, did you make sure to document.write the <link rel=stylesheet> and the inline script together?
  381. # [13:50] <Hixie> no idea
  382. # [13:51] <hsivonen> if the <link rel=stylesheet> is in the network stream, you block whatever script would call document.write before you get to the document.write
  383. # [13:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: (you can do fancy yield and continuation in C++ if you design for it, of course)
  384. # [13:51] <jgraham> (I'm not suggesting that doesn't make it too high an implementation burden to require it)
  385. # [13:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: do you mean with arbitrary methods on the stack and without breaking the abstraction that the program isn't supposed to mess with its own stack as raw memory?
  386. # [13:53] <Hixie> you can do things with setjmp/longjmp
  387. # [13:53] <Hixie> but i wouldn't recommend it
  388. # [13:53] <Hixie> you can also simply write your code so that the continuation is a separate method
  389. # [13:54] <Hixie> it's not like the spinning is in an arbitrary place, it's in a well-defined place
  390. # [13:54] <Hixie> but in practice it doesn't matter much
  391. # [13:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: I am not familiar with the range of implementation approaches, I just know it is possible
  392. # [13:54] <Hixie> i was just saying the spec doesn't technically use nested event loops
  393. # [13:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: that's not much of a consolation
  394. # [13:55] <Hixie> i don't think anybody intended it to be a consolation :-)
  395. # [13:57] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  396. # [14:03] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Quit: kennyluck)
  397. # [14:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-167-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  398. # [14:18] * Joins: daedb (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com)
  399. # [14:18] * Joins: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@p5DDBB1F1.dip.t-dialin.net)
  400. # [14:20] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@p5DDBABE6.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  401. # [14:22] * Quits: daedb_ (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  402. # [14:27] * erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmann
  403. # [14:39] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@p5DDBB1F1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  404. # [14:42] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  405. # [14:43] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  406. # [14:47] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  407. # [14:48] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.62.136)
  408. # [14:49] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-167-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  409. # [14:56] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: Leaving)
  410. # [14:56] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  411. # [14:58] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  412. # [14:59] * Joins: Martijnc_ (~martijn@91.176.62.136)
  413. # [15:01] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.62.136) (Remote host closed the connection)
  414. # [15:01] * Martijnc_ is now known as Martijnc
  415. # [15:03] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  416. # [15:07] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  417. # [15:07] <jgraham> Hmm, is it generally true that the list of possibilities in the tree construction algorithm can be treated as unordered? It is at least untrue in the foreignContent case, but it seems like it would be nice if it was always true
  418. # [15:08] <jgraham> (apart from the "anything else" type clauses of course)
  419. # [15:09] * Joins: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  420. # [15:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: IIRC, it's unordered
  421. # [15:15] <jgraham> Hmm, what am I missing about EOF handling in foreign content? It seems like it doesn't switch insertion modes but reprocesses the token
  422. # [15:15] <jgraham> So it will just pop everything off the stack of open elements
  423. # [15:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: It isn't in the case of 'A start tag whose tag name is one of: "b", "big", [...]' because that rule only applies if you don't match the rule 'A start tag, if the current node is an element in the HTML namespace.'
  424. # [15:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh ok.
  425. # [15:19] <jgraham> hsivonen: Any clues about what I am missing with the EOF thing?
  426. # [15:25] <zcorpan_> so what happened to binary arrays?
  427. # [15:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think you found a spec bug.
  428. # [15:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: before reprocessing the token, the tree builder should switch to the original mode
  429. # [15:26] <hsivonen> or at least that's what I have implemented
  430. # [15:26] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
  431. # [15:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: For everything in that clause or just the EOF case?
  432. # [15:33] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  433. # [15:39] * Quits: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  434. # [15:41] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
  435. # [15:42] <jgraham> hsivonen: Filed a bug
  436. # [15:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: I meant the EOF case, but there may be other bugs
  437. # [15:43] <jgraham> I think the other case works either way
  438. # [15:44] <jgraham> But I may be wrong
  439. # [15:45] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  440. # [15:45] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
  441. # [15:45] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  442. # [15:46] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
  443. # [15:46] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.62.136) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  444. # [15:47] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: Leaving)
  445. # [15:48] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
  446. # [15:49] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  447. # [15:53] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.62.136)
  448. # [15:59] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231)
  449. # [15:59] * Joins: mikekelly (mikek@s3x0r.biz)
  450. # [15:59] <mikekelly> hi fans
  451. # [16:00] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-161-104-199.range86-161.btcentralplus.com)
  452. # [16:00] <mikekelly> I've come for my bi-annual discussion about the type attribute
  453. # [16:01] <Dashiva> Please make sure you have new information before reopening old issues
  454. # [16:02] <mikekelly> I'm joking
  455. # [16:02] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  456. # [16:03] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-auaacysohllmmlbo)
  457. # [16:04] * Joins: m_ali (~Ali.Jan@203.99.191.7)
  458. # [16:04] <mikekelly> why is it not possible for javascript to kick off a page transition and have control over the headers in the same as you do with XHR ?
  459. # [16:05] <annevk> so you were not joking?
  460. # [16:06] <annevk> yawn
  461. # [16:06] <m_ali> Hi
  462. # [16:07] <m_ali> i have a project that is using html5lib for sanitization of user input
  463. # [16:08] <m_ali> it is using the tokenizer and code like this:
  464. # [16:08] <m_ali> p = html5lib.HTMLParser(tokenizer=HTMLSanitizer,
  465. # [16:08] <m_ali> tree=treebuilders.getTreeBuilder("dom"))
  466. # [16:08] <m_ali> dom_tree = p.parseFragment(html)
  467. # [16:08] <m_ali> walker = treewalkers.getTreeWalker("dom")
  468. # [16:08] <m_ali> stream = walker(dom_tree)
  469. # [16:08] <m_ali> s = serializer.HTMLSerializer(omit_optional_tags=False,
  470. # [16:08] <m_ali> quote_attr_values=True)
  471. # [16:08] <m_ali> output_generator = s.serialize(stream)
  472. # [16:08] <m_ali> #logging.debug(''.join(output_generator))
  473. # [16:08] <m_ali> return u''.join(output_generator)
  474. # [16:08] <m_ali> I am looking to allow the user to embed videos which are in <object> tags and the sanitization changes that to text.
  475. # [16:08] <m_ali> Any ideas what I need to do?
  476. # [16:09] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  477. # [16:09] <zcorpan_> if you allow <object>, there's no point in sanitizing at all
  478. # [16:10] <mikekelly> annevk: I was joking.. do you know the answer to that question?
  479. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> unless i guess you require data='' to be something that is trusted
  480. # [16:11] <m_ali> I can check the object tag that contains the allowed video sites
  481. # [16:11] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@softbank126102034141.bbtec.net)
  482. # [16:11] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@softbank126102034141.bbtec.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  483. # [16:11] * Joins: plainhao (~plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com)
  484. # [16:12] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.62.136) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  485. # [16:13] * Quits: Henrik`G (~hb@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  486. # [16:14] <TabAtkins_> dammit, lachy. why you gotta beat me to posting things?
  487. # [16:15] <m_ali> @zcorpan_: would I need to look at each token in the tokenizer or is there any other way?
  488. # [16:16] <jgraham> m_ali: YOu can allow object in the sanitizer. Restricting the allowed attribute values is harder
  489. # [16:17] <jgraham> There is a concept of filters for treewalkers so you might be able to use the built-in sanitizer as the first stage and then write something that implements the filter interface for your own custom sanitization
  490. # [16:17] <jgraham> Not really documented though so you will need to look at the code
  491. # [16:18] <jgraham> m_ali: (as an aside I guess using cElementTree or lxml is better than using DOM as the intermediate tree format, especially if you con't plan to manipulate the tree at all and so don't care about the API)
  492. # [16:20] <jgraham> (and you can do tree = html5lib.parse(input, treebulder="lxml") rather than constructing a intermediate HTMLParser object by hand)
  493. # [16:20] <jgraham> (I think parseFragment should work as well, if not file a bug)
  494. # [16:22] <m_ali> Can't see object as an accepted element here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Sanitization_rules or am i missing something?
  495. # [16:23] <m_ali> Also, I don't understand why I need the two stage approach?
  496. # [16:23] <m_ali> *accepted=acceptable
  497. # [16:26] <jgraham> m_ali: You can customise what elements the sanitizer accepts by changing an attribute
  498. # [16:26] <mikekelly> did someone say accept?
  499. # [16:26] <jgraham> It is harder to add extra checks on allowed attribute values
  500. # [16:26] <jgraham> That's what I am suggesting the two-stage approach for
  501. # [16:27] <jgraham> (I vaugely considered redesigning the sanitizer as a series of plugabble filters, but apart from anything else it would kill perf)
  502. # [16:29] <m_ali> hmm... ok, so do you mean that the first stage sanitize would allow <object> and my custom sanitize would then only allow those <objects> that I want?
  503. # [16:32] <jgraham> m_ali: Yes
  504. # [16:33] <zcorpan_> http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&safe=off&client=opera&hs=yuU&rls=en&tbs=prv%3A1&q=html5test&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&;gs_rfai= - google scores 62 on html5test.com
  505. # [16:33] <m_ali> thanks jgraham
  506. # [16:35] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Hah!
  507. # [16:36] <jgraham> zcorpan_: We should get them to encode the passing tests in a barcode in the area presented by google so we can determine what they pass
  508. # [16:36] <zcorpan_> 94 on beta.html5test.com
  509. # [16:37] <zcorpan_> 'no bonus points' so no more than one video and one audio codec
  510. # [16:43] <zcorpan_> http://github.com/NielsLeenheer/html5test/issues#issue/41
  511. # [16:49] <jgraham> (also works with Acid 3)
  512. # [16:49] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Is it me or does your bug report attribute all lines to you? Not that it matters.
  513. # [16:51] <Philip`> Presumably Google is just rendering with some version of Chrome?
  514. # [16:51] <jgraham> Yeah, seems to be a reasonably old version though
  515. # [16:52] <jgraham> Is the fourth bucket on acid3 SVG? That doesn't seem to be working at all
  516. # [16:55] <gsnedders> SVG is a compile-time option for WebKit
  517. # [16:57] * Joins: mikl0 (~mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com)
  518. # [16:59] <zcorpan_> jgraham: github tampers with my text
  519. # [17:00] <jgraham> zcorpan_: OK
  520. # [17:00] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  521. # [17:02] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~chatzilla@76-253-3-102.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  522. # [17:04] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  523. # [17:12] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan_)
  524. # [17:22] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  525. # [17:25] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  526. # [17:37] * Quits: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas_)
  527. # [17:39] * gsnedders wonders what to do this evening
  528. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Doing something outside would be nice given the weather, but watching football seems, uh, annoying.
  529. # [17:39] * Joins: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk)
  530. # [17:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: Really it won't be that bad
  531. # [17:41] <jgraham> You can always bring a book
  532. # [17:41] <jgraham> and a mp3 player
  533. # [17:41] <jgraham> and headphones
  534. # [17:42] <gsnedders> Well, if I take my closed headphones, I can avoid all of the attempts to get me a girl.
  535. # [17:42] <gsnedders> But it doesn't really seem worthwhile going to a football match for that.
  536. # [17:42] <Dashiva> Get girls are a football match?
  537. # [17:43] <Dashiva> *at
  538. # [17:43] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Well, it's a women's football match, so presumably
  539. # [17:43] * gsnedders doesn't have much experience of this
  540. # [17:43] <Dashiva> No field invasions
  541. # [17:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: We can make sure you don't sit with kilsmo
  542. # [17:43] <gsnedders> Dashiva: That's what my colleagues are probably planning for me.
  543. # [17:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: I'm really not, at least
  544. # [17:44] <Dashiva> If you do, make sure you streak
  545. # [17:44] <jgraham> I doubt Stina or Marlin are either
  546. # [17:44] <jgraham> honestly
  547. # [17:44] * jgraham has no idea who else, if anyone, is going
  548. # [17:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: Now I'm just realizing how little clue I have about going
  549. # [17:44] * Quits: sebmarkbage (~miranda@h-70-237.A146.priv.bahnhof.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  550. # [17:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: Lars I thought was
  551. # [17:45] <gsnedders> *who is going
  552. # [17:45] <jgraham> (actually I'm not sure about Stina or Marlin but I know they were at least encouraged to go)
  553. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Just make sure to inact the second rule of streaking?
  554. # [17:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: Half the office was, as far as I can tell :P
  555. # [17:46] <Dashiva> gsnedders: The first rule of football is, kick the ball
  556. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Gah. Sit indoors and try and catch up on the last month in my diary, or go and watch football
  557. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Neither seems particuarly great.
  558. # [17:46] <gsnedders> But the latter at least takes adavantage of the fact that Sweden has been weather than Scotland.
  559. # [17:47] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-161-104-199.range86-161.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  560. # [17:47] <gsnedders> s/been/better/
  561. # [17:48] <Dashiva> Is it possible to not have better weather than Scotland?
  562. # [17:48] <gsnedders> Dashiva: The Polar regions.
  563. # [17:49] <Dashiva> The weather is less important when it's night half the year :)
  564. # [17:50] * Quits: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
  565. # [17:50] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  566. # [17:50] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  567. # [17:51] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.42.179) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  568. # [17:52] * Joins: chris_7 (~chris@129-97-120-150.uwaterloo.ca)
  569. # [17:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: When are you going from the office, anyway?
  570. # [17:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: 18:30
  571. # [17:53] * gsnedders might come, and will wear less black than earlier if he's to sit around in the sun
  572. # [17:53] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  573. # [17:54] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  574. # [17:54] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  575. # [17:55] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  576. # [17:58] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  577. # [17:59] * chris_7 is now known as chris_7_
  578. # [17:59] * chris_7_ is now known as chris_7
  579. # [18:04] * Joins: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison)
  580. # [18:09] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  581. # [18:11] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-161-104-199.range86-161.btcentralplus.com)
  582. # [18:12] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-161-104-199.range86-161.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  583. # [18:15] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: pesla)
  584. # [18:17] * Parts: m_ali (~Ali.Jan@203.99.191.7)
  585. # [18:18] * Joins: Henrik`G (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se)
  586. # [18:22] * Quits: chris_7 (~chris@129-97-120-150.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving)
  587. # [18:23] * Quits: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: akamike)
  588. # [18:37] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  589. # [18:40] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198)
  590. # [18:40] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
  591. # [18:42] * Joins: samuelam (~samuelam@c-71-237-161-105.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
  592. # [18:47] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.18.118)
  593. # [18:47] * Joins: m_ali (~Ali.Jan@203.99.191.7)
  594. # [18:48] * Quits: RiPPER (~jon@athedsl-247277.home.otenet.gr) (Quit: Leaving)
  595. # [18:50] * Quits: samuelam (~samuelam@c-71-237-161-105.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: samuelam)
  596. # [18:57] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-139-192.dynamic.qsc.de)
  597. # [18:59] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  598. # [19:03] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.42.179)
  599. # [19:04] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  600. # [19:05] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-eptkevlmubobwsrj) (Quit: dave_levin)
  601. # [19:05] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-rdpkriieadraynjo)
  602. # [19:05] * Quits: m_ali (~Ali.Jan@203.99.191.7) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  603. # [19:07] * Quits: k0rnel (k0rnel@sion.ihrisko.org) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  604. # [19:11] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  605. # [19:11] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198) (Quit: weinig)
  606. # [19:12] * Joins: k0rnel (k0rnel@sion.ihrisko.org)
  607. # [19:12] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  608. # [19:17] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1f02:223:12ff:fe55:c1f)
  609. # [19:18] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  610. # [19:18] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  611. # [19:24] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  612. # [19:38] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  613. # [19:41] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Leaving)
  614. # [19:43] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  615. # [19:43] * maikmerten is now known as maik|eat
  616. # [19:55] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  617. # [19:57] * Joins: murz (~mmurraywa@wcproxy.msnbc.com)
  618. # [19:57] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
  619. # [19:58] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  620. # [20:00] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-trlsdyvrkquwetlf)
  621. # [20:02] * maik|eat is now known as maikmerten
  622. # [20:05] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-ukqdfbjeotxxirms)
  623. # [20:09] * Quits: mikl0 (~mikl0@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  624. # [20:12] * Joins: m_ali (~Ali.Jan@119.153.118.38)
  625. # [20:14] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1f02:223:12ff:fe55:c1f) (Quit: weinig)
  626. # [20:21] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198)
  627. # [20:31] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-161-104-199.range86-161.btcentralplus.com)
  628. # [20:31] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-161-104-199.range86-161.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  629. # [20:36] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1f02:223:12ff:fe55:ecb6)
  630. # [20:36] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1f02:223:12ff:fe55:ecb6) (Changing host)
  631. # [20:36] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  632. # [20:37] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  633. # [20:39] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Did you see Avenue Q in London?
  634. # [20:39] * Joins: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  635. # [20:40] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  636. # [20:40] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  637. # [20:43] * Parts: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  638. # [20:57] * Joins: paul_irish_ (~paul_iris@166.190.229.39)
  639. # [20:58] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198) (Quit: weinig)
  640. # [20:59] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.173.246.238) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  641. # [21:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No, I never actually managed to see it as I, well, ended up with too much else going on with friends there
  642. # [21:20] * Joins: davidmccabe (~david@host-218-34.resnet.pdx.edu)
  643. # [21:22] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  644. # [21:24] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
  645. # [21:28] * Quits: inimino (~inimino@boshi.inimino.org) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  646. # [21:28] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1f02:223:12ff:fe55:ecb6)
  647. # [21:28] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1f02:223:12ff:fe55:ecb6) (Changing host)
  648. # [21:28] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  649. # [21:29] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Client Quit)
  650. # [21:35] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198)
  651. # [21:46] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com) (Quit: plainhao)
  652. # [21:49] * Joins: inimino (~inimino@boshi.inimino.org)
  653. # [21:50] * Joins: mbrubeck (~mbrubeck@184.77.100.34)
  654. # [22:04] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb)
  655. # [22:31] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  656. # [22:35] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  657. # [22:38] * Joins: aroben__ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  658. # [22:39] * Quits: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-auaacysohllmmlbo) (Quit: pmuellr)
  659. # [22:39] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  660. # [22:39] * Joins: m_ali1 (~Ali.Jan@119.153.24.194)
  661. # [22:41] * Joins: eighty4_ (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  662. # [22:41] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  663. # [22:41] * Quits: m_ali (~Ali.Jan@119.153.118.38) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  664. # [22:44] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  665. # [22:50] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  666. # [22:51] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-139-192.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  667. # [22:53] * Quits: aroben__ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  668. # [22:55] * Joins: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.62.136)
  669. # [22:55] * Quits: Martijnc` (~Martijnc@91.176.62.136)
  670. # [22:57] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  671. # [23:01] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  672. # [23:04] * Quits: paul_irish_ (~paul_iris@166.190.229.39) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  673. # [23:06] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  674. # [23:09] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  675. # [23:12] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@ye229.internetdsl.tpnet.pl)
  676. # [23:13] * Joins: aho (~nya@f050255053.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  677. # [23:14] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@1503032406.dhcp.dbnet.dk) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  678. # [23:17] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  679. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Why are people complaining about the chairs' decisions, when the decision policy clearly states that the only recourse is filing a formal objection?
  680. # [23:18] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  681. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Because they don't understand the process, or don't care about it and just want things to go their way.
  682. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> (I, on the other hand, am bitching about the process itself.)
  683. # [23:19] * Joins: m_ali (~Ali.Jan@203.99.191.165)
  684. # [23:20] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  685. # [23:20] * Quits: m_ali1 (~Ali.Jan@119.153.24.194) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  686. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Who decided that it would be a good idea to allow random people off the Internet to file change proposals that the working group has to deal with? Does any other WG work that way?
  687. # [23:20] <othermaciej> oh no, is there a giant flamewar?
  688. # [23:20] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-171-40-224.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  689. # [23:21] <hober> I bet Larry's new bug will go over really well with Sam...
  690. # [23:21] <hober> othermaciej:
  691. # [23:21] <hober> err, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9836
  692. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> heh, awesome.
  693. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure I remember the chairs explicitly saying something to the effect of "only strongly-held objections will be considered".
  694. # [23:23] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@166.190.229.39)
  695. # [23:25] <Rik`> This guy is paid by Adobe to contribute to HTML5 ? really ?
  696. # [23:25] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.253.249) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  697. # [23:25] * Quits: eighty4_ (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  698. # [23:26] <othermaciej> the exact text (still visible on the poll results page) is: "If you have strong objections to adopting this Change Proposal, please state your objections below."
  699. # [23:27] <othermaciej> I must admit that a response starting with "I'm not *strongly* opposed" sounds like the author is declaring it not to be a strong objection to me
  700. # [23:27] * Joins: Martijnc_ (~martijn@91.176.62.136)
  701. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> That does sound like a relatively reasonable inference.
  702. # [23:28] * Quits: Martijnc (~martijn@91.176.62.136) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  703. # [23:28] <othermaciej> and while certainly the chairs or WG could second guess them, it seems very unlikely something could be a strong objection if the person raising it says it isn't, and second guessing in such circumstances would amount to a fishing expedition
  704. # [23:28] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  705. # [23:30] <mbrubeck> Note that the reply read (my emphasis) "I'm not strongly opposed to the *concepts*.... *but*...."
  706. # [23:33] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198) (Quit: weinig)
  707. # [23:33] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.112) (Quit: Leaving...)
  708. # [23:33] <Hixie> could someone explain to me why microdata and a suggestion to make UAs more accessible get split out, but <figure> and <aside> do not?
  709. # [23:33] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  710. # [23:33] <Hixie> i've been reading and rereading the respective "working group decisions" but can't for the life of me work out a consistent policy
  711. # [23:34] <Hixie> (that is assuming i'm even understanding the decisions correctly, which is hard given how utterly vague and wishy-washy they are)
  712. # [23:34] <annevk> they seem to be primarily based on the comments the change proposals receive
  713. # [23:34] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.198)
  714. # [23:35] <annevk> the one with the weakest comments against, wins
  715. # [23:35] <Hixie> so there's no consistent policy for me to apply?
  716. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> Sure there is, object very strongly to everything.
  717. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> I mean, any changes.
  718. # [23:35] <Hixie> no i mean as editor
  719. # [23:36] <Hixie> there's no policy that i can apply as editor before things get objected to
  720. # [23:36] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  721. # [23:36] <annevk> it depends on how well you can predict what the WG members are up to
  722. # [23:37] <Hixie> i can't even predict what the chairs are up to
  723. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> Well . . . make sure that your opinion happens to agree with the chairs'? I mean, basically what we've got is that the chairs can overrule you if people convince them that you're wrong.
  724. # [23:37] <annevk> clearly you need more data :p
  725. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> So unless you can read their minds, or pay them off or something, I don't that you'd be able to avoid ever being overruled.
  726. # [23:37] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the chairs' opinions don't agree with the chairs'
  727. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> That's a problem with most people.
  728. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Not "people convince them that you're wrong". It's "people convince them that they'll object more strenuously than people on the other side".
  729. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> It is *literally* a race to exhaustion.
  730. # [23:38] <annevk> he is not worried about being overruled, he is interested in applying rationale for approved change proposals to the rest of the specification
  731. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Why?
  732. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> It seems like it would be easier to do what he thinks is best and then fix it if he's asked to.
  733. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> Given that there are no clear criteria being applied.
  734. # [23:39] <Hixie> i am not going to have my name on a spec that is internally inconsistent
  735. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, no, they're supposed to be judging the technical merits of objections. I don't win if I say "I HATE THIS FEATURE AND WILL COMPLAIN TO THE DIRECTOR AND PICKET OUTSIDE W3C OFFICES". I have to convince them that my reasons are sound.
  736. # [23:40] <Hixie> if we're going to do something different than what i think is logical, that's fine, i just need to know what the logic is so that i can apply it consistently and make the spec internally consistent
  737. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Hixie, are you suggesting that any form of HTML is internally consistent? Surely it's less inconsistent to change a few minor things because the chairs disagree with you, than to use entire horribly-designed APIs because IE happens to support them already.
  738. # [23:41] <Hixie> i don't mean the technology being defined, i mean the spec defining it
  739. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: No, that's what you *want* to happen. That is definitely not what Sam specifically said they actually judge on.
  740. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I explicitly asked during microdata and was told something like what I just said.
  741. # [23:42] <annevk> while you guys figure this out I'm gonna read my next book
  742. # [23:42] <Hixie> i've been told they use the value of arguments too
  743. # [23:42] <Hixie> though clearly they don't
  744. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: And now he's saying something different.
  745. # [23:43] <othermaciej> it seems like inclusion/exclusion is (a) a judgment call based on many factors and (b) relevant only to the snapshot of the language that will be labeled "HTML5" by the W3C (therefore some of the factors being the situation at the present moment), and therefore I am not sure what it would mean to have "internal consistency" on the set of things included
  746. # [23:44] <Hixie> othermaciej: why is <aside> in but microdata out? the arguments to both seem to apply equally
  747. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> Consistency would be an issue if the chairs were dictating exact wording, but saying a feature or paragraph here or there should be removed doesn't seem like it meaningfully increases inconsistency.
  748. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> The change proposal part of the process turns out to be a farce, unfortunately. Even when I "win" I'm angry at the results. I think I just won't contribute in the future.
  749. # [23:45] <Hixie> AryehGregor: why is one paragraph of advice in but another not?
  750. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> Hixie, the major reason for leaving out Microdata was that it should compete with RDFa on an equal footing, wasn't it?
  751. # [23:45] <mbrubeck> Hixie: That's an inconsistency in process - it doesn't necessarily lead to an inconsistent spec.
  752. # [23:45] <mbrubeck> (any more than a consistent process would necessarily lead to a consistent spec)
  753. # [23:46] <othermaciej> I don't want to get too much into it, since I'm technically on vacation still, but Tab, I am curious what you find upsetting about the results and I'll ask you about it later maybe
  754. # [23:46] <Hixie> AryehGregor: shouldn't <aside> compete on an equal footing with other proposals?
  755. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Sure, just ping me whenever.
  756. # [23:47] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-242-209-197.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  757. # [23:47] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i feel similarly, although in my guess i'm not angry at the results, i am just baffled
  758. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> Hixie, there are no other proposals that are written up in specs and actively edited, are there? You can't say it should compete on an equal footing with something that's not in any spec and won't be put in one anytime soon.
  759. # [23:48] <Hixie> AryehGregor: so things that have active specs should be split out? i could apply that reasoning, if that's the reasoning
  760. # [23:48] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  761. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> It seemed fairly essential in the RDFa case. But the chairs have declined to decide anything on a general basis, only case-by-case.
  762. # [23:48] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i'd have to take out the event handler attributes (compete with XML Events), <a> and <link> (competes with XLink), rel="" (competes with RDFa and Microdata)...
  763. # [23:48] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i don
  764. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> So maybe you should ask for a change in the decision policy.
  765. # [23:48] <Hixie> er
  766. # [23:49] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i don't mind them deciding on a case-by-case basis so long as they apply their reasoning consistently to everything in the spec
  767. # [23:49] <Hixie> but they don't
  768. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Lief's <object> proposal is a competing idea. ^_^
  769. # [23:51] <jgraham> """The decision about which objections are strong or are not strong should be
  770. # [23:51] <jgraham> working group consensus based"""
  771. # [23:51] <jgraham> We should totally have a poll for each objection
  772. # [23:52] <Hixie> consensus is a dumb way to do language design
  773. # [23:52] <othermaciej> jgraham: that suggestion reminds me of this: http://volokh.com/2010/06/01/sabotage-or-how-dilbert-won-the-war/
  774. # [23:54] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-ffvhrzifaouuiacf)
  775. # [23:54] <jgraham> Yes, I think it is rather clear Larry is seeking to slow down progress
  776. # [23:55] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  777. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> It doesn't seem that way to me. His actions seem explainable by good faith.
  778. # [23:56] <othermaciej> To be clear, I meant your comical suggestion ("have a poll for each objection"), not Larry's
  779. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> I tend to always assume good faith. It works pretty well.
  780. # [23:56] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It also means that you are wrong most of the time
  781. # [23:56] <jgraham> Hopefully that doesn't matter
  782. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I beg to differ.
  783. # [23:57] <jgraham> Well I can't really demonstrate "most"
  784. # [23:57] <othermaciej> I am not sure what Larry's motivations are, and ideally I can do my job without having to make such a determination
  785. # [23:57] <mbrubeck> I'm really confused about Larry's "objection" - is it an objection to the change proposal at all, or is it really a statement of support for the change proposal?
  786. # [23:57] <jgraham> So "a non-negligible fraction"
  787. # [23:57] <othermaciej> I think most people are acting in what they themselves consider to be good faith most of the time
  788. # [23:57] <mbrubeck> oh, I see
  789. # [23:58] <mbrubeck> It objects to the "Change Proposal to Keep" not the "Change Proposal to Remove"
  790. # [23:58] <jgraham> FWIW many people consider slowing down progress to be a reasonable goal
  791. # [23:58] <jgraham> for my definition of progress
  792. # [23:58] <othermaciej> sometimes people behave in ways that are consciously insincere, but that is the exception
  793. # Session Close: Thu Jun 03 00:00:01 2010

The end :)