/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 07 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:06] <Hixie> drclue: TCPConnection?
  6. # [00:07] <drclue> @hixie http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/multipage/section-network.html
  7. # [00:09] <drclue> Maybe that page is way out of date or something, but it was what came up in a quick search
  8. # [00:09] <Hixie> um, that's from 2007
  9. # [00:09] <Hixie> you want http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
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  105. # [08:12] <theMadness> Did a size attribute get dropped from the input type=file?
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  115. # [09:20] <hsivonen> wow. running svn annotate on the spec is *slow*
  116. # [09:21] * hsivonen wishes someone were caching a blame-annotated copy
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  120. # [09:34] <flox> hello
  121. # [09:35] <flox> I retried to install html5 validator locally (Debian Lenny)
  122. # [09:35] <flox> still the same error http://paste.pocoo.org/show/222740/
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  124. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> flox: run the build script one more time
  125. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> that error is a know issue
  126. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> it always happens the first time you run the build
  127. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> you can fix it by running "build/build.py localent"
  128. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> or just be re-running "build/build.py all"
  129. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> or maybe even just re-running "build/build.py build"
  130. # [09:40] <flox> wow ...
  131. # [09:40] <flox> yesterday I retried it repeatedly, without success
  132. # [09:41] <flox> today it works on 2nd run
  133. # [09:42] * hsivonen decides to fix the documentation right now
  134. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> flox: dunno what you were doing yesterday, but re-running the build twice with "all" should always work
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  136. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> flox: but anyway, you should never need to do that again unless/until you do a fresh checkout of the sources
  137. # [09:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: there's an out of date one at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/blame
  138. # [09:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: i regen it every now and then
  139. # [09:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
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  141. # [09:44] <flox> MikeSmith: thank you
  142. # [09:47] <hsivonen> hmm. the commit message of http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3194&to=3195&;context= doesn't really give hints about why -- > commenent closing was deemed necessary
  143. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> flox: yw
  144. # [09:48] <hsivonen> flox, MikeSmith: edited http://about.validator.nu/#src
  145. # [09:48] <Hixie> not only is the group discussing the html5 license at the w3c a secret group, I can't even subscribe to their mailing list without being appointed a rep by google's AC
  146. # [09:48] <Hixie> anyone want to lay bets on the odds of a group that secretive coming up with an appropriate open license for the spec?
  147. # [09:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you remember the story behind -- > ?
  148. # [09:49] <Hixie> i think zcorpan was behind it, but that's just a guess
  149. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: doc update looks good. That makes it clear, anyway
  150. # [09:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm willing to believe that without reparsing, we'd be worse off if -- > didn't close, but the bad news is that it breaks CNN Money
  151. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: would be nice to find somebody with ant or maven chops to rework the build
  152. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Whoever edits the source of CNN Money seems to think that putting spaces around -- makes them no longer act as commment delimites
  153. # [09:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: and that works in all other browsers?
  154. # [09:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think this is one of those cases where the three options are 1. x sites break, 2. x other sites break, or 3. we have a security vulnerability
  155. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems that -- > doesn't terminate a comment in Opera 10.5x, IE8 or Chrome beta channel
  156. # [09:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: https://twitter.com/technomancy/status/10994115673
  157. # [09:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: did you test safari?
  158. # [09:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: I didn't
  159. # [09:54] <Hixie> prolly the same as chrome then
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  161. # [09:54] <hsivonen> these days, I tend to test WebKit as Chrome, since Chrome runs on Linux but Safari doesn't
  162. # [09:54] <Hixie> the webkit guys are implementing the spec too, if they get there soon enough maybe we can just bully our way through under the banner of HTML5 or something
  163. # [09:56] <Matjas> Is using the solidus ('/>') required when using the XHTML serialization of HTML5 (by sending the document with Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml)?
  164. # [09:56] <Hixie> Matjas: only if you omit the end tag
  165. # [09:56] <Hixie> Matjas: in xml you can do <foo></foo> or <foo/>, they mean the same
  166. # [09:56] <Hixie> e.g. <img></img> or <img/>
  167. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: :) I guess I had assumed ant and maven were actually preferable to however else to put together a build for java apps.. but perhaps now
  168. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> *not
  169. # [09:56] <Matjas> Hixie: Thanks.
  170. # [09:57] <Matjas> Hixie: So <img></img> would be valid HTML5 (in XML mode)?
  171. # [09:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: well, obviously build.py isn't so nice, either
  172. # [09:58] <Hixie> Matjas: well you need src="" and alt="" also, but yeah, from a syntax perspective it's correct in XML
  173. # [09:58] <hsivonen> Matjas: <img alt='...' src='...'></img> is valid XHTML5, yes
  174. # [09:58] <Hixie> it's just like XHTML1 :-)
  175. # [09:59] <Matjas> I knew it was syntactically equivalent, but I didn't know it was actually confirming/valid. Mind = blown. Thanks guys!
  176. # [10:03] <hsivonen> Python md5 module deprecation warning is another piece of gratuitous change that humanity could have done without
  177. # [10:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: speaking of Maven, I need to learn how to make Maven run some Java code supplied by me as part of the build process...
  178. # [10:05] <hsivonen> also, the piece of code I have modified a .java file in place instead of having distinct input and output
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  180. # [10:05] <hsivonen> which is probably considered wrong
  181. # [10:06] * hsivonen gestures angrily in HotSpot's general direction
  182. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> I seem to run into the "considered wrong" cases often when I write anything at all in Java
  183. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> Java ecosystem seems to consider a lot of things wrong
  184. # [10:07] <hsivonen> hah
  185. # [10:08] <Matjas> Why is it that html5.validator.nu chokes on </img>? http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://mathiasbynens.be/edu/test.html&showsource=yes Note that this is in HTML serialization mode.
  186. # [10:09] <Hixie> HTML != XHTML
  187. # [10:09] <Hixie> </img> is only valid in XHTML
  188. # [10:09] <hsivonen> (The reason why I made it modify the file in place is that I don't want to rewrite the identity of the class just to apply a workaround for release binaries
  189. # [10:09] <hsivonen> )
  190. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah
  191. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> yeah, that makes sense
  192. # [10:10] <Matjas> Fair enough. Now, to trigger XML mode, I just need to serve the file with a header like Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml;charset=UTF-8, right?
  193. # [10:11] <Matjas> Or do I need to make other changes to the document as well?
  194. # [10:11] <Matjas> http://mathiasbynens.be/edu/test.html (content-type header added) seems to break, I must be doing something wrong.
  195. # [10:11] <Hixie> you need xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" on the <html>
  196. # [10:12] <Hixie> you don't need the doctype in xhtml mode
  197. # [10:12] <Hixie> but if you have it it has to be uppercase
  198. # [10:12] <Hixie> <!DOCTYPE html>
  199. # [10:12] <Hixie> frankly though i wouldn't bother using XHTML unless you have a really good reason to :-)
  200. # [10:13] * hsivonen wishes the last argument of addEventListener were optional
  201. # [10:13] <Matjas> Don't worry, I'm never gonna use XHTML. Just trying to understand how the XML serialization works :)
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  203. # [10:13] <Hixie> :-)
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  208. # [10:39] <jgraham> I think the -- > thing caused a bug in Opera or so, but zcorpan will remember
  209. # [10:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: caused a bug which way?
  210. # [10:41] <jgraham> Not supporting it
  211. # [10:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: in an internal build that no longer reparses?
  212. # [10:41] <jgraham> Umm, I might be thinking of the wrong thing
  213. # [10:42] <jgraham> zcorpan really has a better memory than me
  214. # [10:42] <hsivonen> Well, I CCed zcorpan on the Mozilla bug.
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  219. # [10:53] <henrikl> Quick question: HTML5 + Live streaming video. What options do I have?
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  222. # [11:01] <doublec> henrikl, browsers that support theora will play live streams using icecast
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  226. # [11:05] <henrikl> doublec: Ok. Do you know how the lay of the land is with regards to H.264?
  227. # [11:05] <doublec> henrikl, unfortuntately not. I believe safari can do it via quicktime but I don't know the details.
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  229. # [11:06] <henrikl> doublec: Ok, thanks! I`ll just have to set up some tests then. :)
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  233. # [11:19] <nessy> darwin streaming server for quicktime
  234. # [11:19] <nessy> flumotion for theora and webm
  235. # [11:21] <nessy> several companies also offer h.264 streaming services using Adobe's Server
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  285. # [15:01] <hsivonen> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2972817/what-reasons-could-justify-apples-html5-demos-use-of-html4-doctypes
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  287. # [15:07] <Lachy> It's good that people are recognising those "HTML5 demos" for what they are as just a marketing gimmick, rather than any serious attempt to showcasing standards.
  288. # [15:08] <Phae> the apple ones?
  289. # [15:08] <Lachy> yes
  290. # [15:08] <Phae> mm.. agreed.
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  294. # [15:13] <hsivonen> Lachy: some people are, some people aren't
  295. # [15:15] <Philip`> Marketing gimmicks don't need to convince everybody in order to be successful
  296. # [15:15] <Philip`> I guess they just need to convince more people than the number who react adversely to the realisation that it's a gimmick
  297. # [15:16] <hsivonen> Lachy: e.g. Gruber's initial post seemed to take them at face value
  298. # [15:17] <Lachy> sure, we can't expect everyone to realise these things.
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  302. # [15:40] <jgraham> You need to weight by the value of the person e.g. there is no point in convincing lots of people who can't afforrd Apple products that Apple are awesome. But there may be disproportionate weight in convincing percieved tech leaders
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  376. # [19:33] <Dashiva> "In common usage, HTML5 may also refer to the additional use of CSS3, as both technologies are under development in parallel."
  377. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> In that case, presumably it can also refer to the use of SSDs or unmanned attack drones, since those are also under development in parallel.
  378. # [19:34] <Dashiva> Well, are you saying wikipedia is imperfect?
  379. # [19:34] <AryehGregor> No, that sentence accurately reflects popular use of "HTML5" as a buzzword.
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  383. # [19:35] <Dashiva> "HTML5 is also used for any web technology that entered the public consciousness after 2005"
  384. # [19:35] <Philip`> HTML5 makes my computer faster and kills terrorists?
  385. # [19:35] <Philip`> Sounds like good marketing to me
  386. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> Well, maybe some unmanned attack drones have a web interface. I don't know, it's probably classified.
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  398. # [19:58] <zcorpan_> Philip`: yo
  399. # [19:59] <zcorpan_> Philip`: do you have newer dotbot data than 2009-04?
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  401. # [20:01] <zcorpan_> seems dotbot doesn't have newer data
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  403. # [20:02] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I'm not aware of any newer data than the year-old release
  404. # [20:03] <zcorpan_> i was considering the possibility of running a new research for -- > for https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=570309
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  406. # [20:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: Can you take a look in a similar manner to what you did for script for style with comments?
  407. # [20:08] <Philip`> What did I do for script for style with comments?
  408. # [20:08] <gsnedders> Parse Error.
  409. # [20:11] * gsnedders tries to find that wiki page about comments in script
  410. # [20:13] * flox was just reading this part :) http://is.gd/cGaXS
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  419. # [20:48] <jwalden> "the first shipped implementation may have been developed in stealth mode without peer review during the development process" hah
  420. # [20:49] <svl> Hrm, H.264 for this Apple "FaceTime" video calling thing which they say will become "an open industry standard".
  421. # [20:51] <jgraham> Y'know I really wish the status markers in the W3C version of the spec weren't quite so ugly
  422. # [20:52] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
  423. # [20:52] <jgraham> I feel somehow responsible
  424. # [20:52] <jgraham> flox: No need for URL shorteners here, this isn't twitter
  425. # [20:53] <flox> jgraham: it's my IRC client which is configured to shorten URLs
  426. # [20:55] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  427. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> What a broken IRC client.
  428. # [20:56] * AryehGregor is wary of following shortened URLs from people he doesn't know
  429. # [20:57] <jgraham> Indeed
  430. # [20:58] <Philip`> Why are unshortened URLs any safer than shortened URLs?
  431. # [20:58] <Philip`> Unless you know and trust the domain name, it could be anything
  432. # [20:58] <jgraham> Philip`: Well that seems like a big win already
  433. # [20:59] <jgraham> You might also know and mistrust the domain name
  434. # [20:59] <jwalden> twitter will auto-shorten some URLs, in some cases; not sure why they don't just always do it, given the arbitrary length limits and all
  435. # [21:01] <jgraham> It also seems to be possible to totally break twitter posts by retweeting them so that the link at the end (i.e. the whole useful contents) gets totally stripped off
  436. # [21:01] <jgraham> The success of such a broken service is some kind of lesson
  437. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Philip`, 1) Often I do know and trust the domain name. 2) Even if I'm not worried about a malicious URL, the name often gives a hint to the content. 3) Trolls are more likely to use a stock URL shortener for goatse than to register a whole domain.
  438. # [21:01] <jgraham> But I don't know what
  439. # [21:02] <jgraham> On the subject of which;
  440. # [21:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: You can't
  441. # [21:02] <jwalden> e.g. https://twitter.com/jswalden/status/5179465673 and https://twitter.com/jswalden/status/5179505187 demonstrating such a forced-shortening
  442. # [21:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: What? Number three?
  443. # [21:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: How evil do you think I am, bitch.
  444. # [21:03] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, that joke was too late on Saturday.
  445. # [21:03] <gsnedders> s/, bitch//
  446. # [21:03] <jgraham> gsnedders: Counting from the top down? Yes
  447. # [21:04] <jgraham> (one based)
  448. # [21:04] <jgraham> And no, I have no idea why you are calling me a bitch
  449. # [21:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: I mean the third item in AryehGregor's list.
  450. # [21:04] * jgraham is confused
  451. # [21:04] <jgraham> But that is OK
  452. # [21:04] <jgraham> It's fun
  453. # [21:04] * AryehGregor is too.
  454. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Uh, so Miss Squeaky was in car giving directions to their flat as if a GPS. I started appending "bitch" on to the end of all the instructions. This may have remained a joke for the rest of the day.
  455. # [21:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: I don't entirely understand what I'm being told I can't do either
  456. # [21:06] <jgraham> Well that's all good
  457. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Are spaces prohibited in href? If so, why? Do browsers not encode them consistently when making the request?
  458. # [21:12] <Philip`> AryehGregor: They're prohibited in the URL syntax, I think
  459. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> The validator says so. Do you know why?
  460. # [21:12] <Philip`> and it's not HTML's job to redefine the valid URL syntax
  461. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> Well, it looks like the browser encodes the spaces as %20. Something must tell it to do so, unless that's unspecced.
  462. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> Anyway, it's HTML's job to say what markup is valid. It could provide a preprocessing algorithm and then say the URL is valid HTML if the result of the preprocessing is a valid URL.
  463. # [21:17] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It does
  464. # [21:17] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html#valid-url
  465. # [21:18] <jgraham> The %20 thing comes from the "resolve an address" algorithm
  466. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> Okay, so can anyone actually answer my original question rather than giving me procedural reasons for why the question doesn't make sense?
  467. # [21:19] <jgraham> Which is, I think, part of the spec-hot-potato that is the URL specification
  468. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Is there some reason to ban spaces in href/src/etc.?
  469. # [21:20] <jgraham> AryehGregor: From HTML's point of view it is because RFC3987 says so
  470. # [21:20] <jgraham> I imagine the RFC says tht so they people can split lists of URLs on spaces to get distinct URLs
  471. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Why does HTML have to require that URLs in HTML match RFC3987?
  472. # [21:20] <jgraham> for example
  473. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> That's incompatible with URL processing in HTML already.
  474. # [21:20] <gsnedders> It doesn't
  475. # [21:20] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-lxbvnynmuacguxxq) (Quit: brb)
  476. # [21:21] <gsnedders> It requires RFCs match RFC3986 or if the document is encoded in UTF-8 or UTF-16 it matches RFC3987
  477. # [21:21] <gsnedders> (IIRC)
  478. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> s/RFCs/URLs/ I assume?
  479. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Yeah
  480. # [21:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: That is mising the point somewhat
  481. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Of course, it's me.
  482. # [21:24] <gsnedders> What do you expect?
  483. # [21:24] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I assume because changing the definition of valid HTML would be a huge fight for no particular purpose
  484. # [21:24] <jgraham> You don't really gain much by allowing literal spaces
  485. # [21:24] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-43-121.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  486. # [21:24] * gsnedders doesn't think it was a very common validation error
  487. # [21:24] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: No route to host)
  488. # [21:24] <Philip`> Also you lose compatibility with tools that expect syntactically valid URL
  489. # [21:24] <Philip`> s
  490. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> I was asking because I noticed the error when validating a site (not one I control).
  491. # [21:25] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-43-121.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  492. # [21:25] <Philip`> ...when they're hooked into an HTML parser and a dumb attribute-value extractor
  493. # [21:26] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  494. # [21:26] <Philip`> although actually you get the same problem even when not involving HTML, because some sites send spaces in URLs in HTTP redirect headers
  495. # [21:26] <Philip`> so I guess those tools should just be fixed
  496. # [21:26] <gsnedders> (within the URL, leading/trailing whitepace is allowed there)
  497. # [21:27] <gsnedders> (I presume Philip` means)
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  500. # [21:28] <Philip`> I don't mean leading/trailing whitespace
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  511. # [22:03] <gsnedders> (Really, how I felt didn't change my behaviour around her that much. The fact that both of us are in general really physically has far more to do with it than anything else.)
  512. # [22:04] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-uabvfkymrdpnddpb) (Remote host closed the connection)
  513. # [22:04] <Philip`> (You are really physically?)
  514. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure if I'd prefer to be physically or mentally. Maybe spiritually? Virtually?
  515. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Definately mentally.
  516. # [22:06] <gsnedders> And where the hell did that come from?
  517. # [22:08] <gsnedders> Oh, there.
  518. # [22:08] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@conference/railsconf/x-somcxtntrhxpuygu)
  519. # [22:08] * Quits: HasBeen_ (~HasBeen@bb219-74-113-14.singnet.com.sg) (Quit: Sleeeeep!)
  520. # [22:09] <gsnedders> Heh. IRC script searching through logs going back five years, one sent to the wrong window. Interesting.
  521. # [22:09] * gsnedders wonders where that even comes fro
  522. # [22:09] <gsnedders> *from
  523. # [22:09] * gsnedders thinks his Perl is wrong
  524. # [22:09] * Joins: vlad_ (~vlad@69-12-240-128.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  525. # [22:10] <vlad_> hey folks, WebIDL question -- if an interface 'operation void foo(in long a);' is called as x.foo() from JS
  526. # [22:10] <vlad_> should that throw an exception? since 'a' does not have [Optional], or will the argument be 'undefined' in JS, and then converted to a long (0?)?
  527. # [22:11] <gsnedders> Treating it as undefined doesn't apply because it's a host object
  528. # [22:11] <gsnedders> I think throw TypeError
  529. # [22:12] * Quits: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  530. # [22:13] <vlad_> hmm, ok
  531. # [22:13] <vlad_> the WebIDL draft doesn't seem to mention this case at all
  532. # [22:14] <gsnedders> It does
  533. # [22:14] <gsnedders> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#call
  534. # [22:14] <gsnedders> It falls into step 3 of that
  535. # [22:15] <vlad_> well, that depends on what happens in the overload resolution
  536. # [22:15] <vlad_> there's even an ed note that says to test how implementations actually behave with too few or too many args :)
  537. # [22:16] <vlad_> the question is I guess whether the type list is "undefined" in that case, or is the wrong length
  538. # [22:16] <gsnedders> I think it is
  539. # [22:19] <jgraham> iirc (whithout reading any specs or anyhting) this ase is underdefined
  540. # [22:19] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@conference/railsconf/x-somcxtntrhxpuygu) (Quit: taf2)
  541. # [22:20] <jgraham> I think the simplest reading is that it throws TypeError, but I don't really trust the spec to be right about that
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  544. # [22:23] <jgraham> gsnedders is really physically in the sense that he had corporeal existence
  545. # [22:23] <jgraham> *has
  546. # [22:23] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  547. # [22:23] <jgraham> Well I guess had last time I saw him
  548. # [22:24] <jgraham> I couldn't say what happened after that
  549. # [22:25] <gsnedders> You have evidence of corporeal existence then, proof I wasn't just a ghost?
  550. # [22:25] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@conference/railsconf/x-ppepesddtpqmeboe)
  551. # [22:25] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  552. # [22:25] <gsnedders> s/have/had/
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  559. # [22:30] <jgraham> gsnedders: """Limits of the diaphane. But he adds: in bodies. Then he was aware of them bodies before of them coloured. How? By knocking his sconce against them, sure."""
  560. # [22:31] <gsnedders> Hey, I've never finished that book. There again, nor have you. :P
  561. # [22:32] <jgraham> Indeed not
  562. # [22:32] * jwalden wonders what book that is, and assumes it's some sort of "high-class" literature that is also thoroughly unreadable
  563. # [22:32] <gsnedders> jwalden: Ulysses, Joyce
  564. # [22:32] <jgraham> jwalden: Yes
  565. # [22:32] <jwalden> ah
  566. # [22:33] <jwalden> I read some of dubliners, it was interesting but not remarkable unless you were particularly omphaloskeptic in your reading
  567. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Do you really expect people to understand omphaloskeptic?
  568. # [22:34] <jwalden> c'mon, it's a fun word to use! :-D
  569. # [22:34] <gsnedders> True.
  570. # [22:34] * jwalden demands an interesting story first and foremost; if the author wants to layer symbolism underneath that, that's fine, but it shouldn't be necessary to enjoy the book
  571. # [22:34] <jgraham> A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man is excellent and accessible
  572. # [22:34] * Quits: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-mlsvkxaviynpohcl) (Quit: pmuellr)
  573. # [22:34] * Philip` demands aliens and lasers and spaceships first and foremost
  574. # [22:35] <gsnedders> jwalden: Better yet is something where the symbolism is underneath a good story, and where the implied story is as good as the main one
  575. # [22:35] <Philip`> (or dragons)
  576. # [22:35] <jgraham> Philip`: But what about qualities yoou like in a book?
  577. # [22:35] <jwalden> gsnedders: true
  578. # [22:35] <Philip`> Actually, mostly I look for thickness
  579. # [22:35] <Philip`> All books seem to be about the same price so I might as well get one with twice as many pages
  580. # [22:36] <gsnedders> jgraham: Wow, that photo you uploaded of me on Flcikr makes me look really tired and otherwise terrible
  581. # [22:36] <gsnedders> *Flickr
  582. # [22:36] <gsnedders> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgraham/4679370417/> is the photo in question.
  583. # [22:36] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
  584. # [22:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Slep more and you won't look so tired
  585. # [22:37] <jgraham> </helpful-advice>
  586. # [22:37] <jgraham> *Sleep
  587. # [22:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: "In the zoo, the mighty zoo/Geoffrey sleeps today"
  588. # [22:38] <gsnedders> There again, songs like that sung by people like me are probably not what you want mentioned :P
  589. # [22:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, I slept 19 hours last nigh.t
  590. # [22:38] <gsnedders> *night
  591. # [22:38] <gsnedders> (and yesterday evening, and this morning)
  592. # [22:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well I guess you look less tired now
  593. # [22:39] <gsnedders> I looked less tired having slept in the car on the way back
  594. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Or at least was half asleep with my eyes shut for most of the time
  595. # [22:39] <jgraham> Although you should try to reduce the standard deviation
  596. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Yeah, totally :(
  597. # [22:40] <jgraham> A nice gaussian distribution centred on 8 or so
  598. # [22:40] * jgraham realises this doesn't work in the limit of small t
  599. # [22:41] <jgraham> (since you can't slep for a negative amount of time)
  600. # [22:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, damn you for taking way better photos than me
  601. # [22:41] <jgraham> *sleep
  602. # [22:41] <jgraham> dammit
  603. # [22:42] <jgraham> Really not very good
  604. # [22:42] <gsnedders> I didn't say they were very good, I just said way better than mine :P
  605. # [22:43] <jgraham> I know, that was just for the benefit of those following along at home
  606. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> Where does it say that CSS prefixes are dropped at CR?
  607. # [22:47] <gsnedders> Unwritten CSS WG policy, AFAIK
  608. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> I'm sure I've seen it written down somewhere.
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  612. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-beijing/
  613. # [22:52] * gsnedders gets confused by documents like that being a TR
  614. # [22:53] * jgraham just gets confused by documents like that
  615. # [22:53] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
  616. # [22:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: You're always confused.
  617. # [22:54] * gsnedders wonders whether it's reasonable to reply to emails saying, "At least you didn't top-quote."
  618. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Or even s/At/I might not care, but at/
  619. # [22:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do you get many emails saying "At least you didn't top-quote"?
  620. # [22:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: No.
  621. # [22:55] <gsnedders> But I'm unconventional.
  622. # [22:55] <jgraham> Well it is quite unreasonable to reply to emails you don't get
  623. # [22:56] <gsnedders> I find it far more interesting to do that.
  624. # [22:57] <jgraham> I suppose you could create a fictional email to reply to
  625. # [22:57] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-iqpwdkbkkwtjgqcj) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  626. # [22:57] <jgraham> People might be offended hough
  627. # [22:57] <gsnedders> I often do.
  628. # [22:57] <jgraham> +t
  629. # [22:58] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-kdbpbmdgbifulmgq)
  630. # [22:58] <gsnedders> It's fun to see how many people believe the fictional email's authorship.
  631. # [22:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think you need to get out more
  632. # [22:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: You got any plans for Sunday?
  633. # [22:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not yet
  634. # [22:59] <jgraham> (afaik, usual disclimers apply)
  635. # [22:59] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
  636. # [22:59] * gsnedders will send email about Sunday tomorrow/Wednesday, unless beaten to it
  637. # [23:01] <gsnedders> (in which case I likely will send an email about it, just a reply)
  638. # [23:02] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.237.243) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  639. # [23:03] <jgraham> gsnedders: You should spend the time you spend talking about sending email sending email and the time you save doing something fun
  640. # [23:03] <jgraham> like making cupcakes
  641. # [23:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-43-121.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  642. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Not bagels, as suggested to me earlier?
  643. # [23:04] <jgraham> hmm?
  644. # [23:05] <gsnedders> (No, I haven't been online all day.)
  645. # [23:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: Steal you partner's Facebook account.
  646. # [23:05] <gsnedders> *your
  647. # [23:05] <gsnedders> (or, alternatively, get your own)
  648. # [23:07] * gsnedders expects he was expected to put burgers inside the bagels
  649. # [23:07] <gsnedders> (Just because it alliterates)
  650. # [23:09] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-153-224.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  651. # [23:11] <jgraham> cupcakes can cunningly conceal cyanaide, causing curtains for consumers
  652. # [23:19] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  653. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> You couldn't figure out a way around "for"?
  654. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> Cupcakes can cunningly conceal cyanide, causing certain consumer cessation.
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  668. # Session Close: Tue Jun 08 00:00:00 2010

The end :)