/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 16 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <karlushi> Small Solar System Body
  4. # [00:01] <jgraham> karlushi: You got a reference for "asteroids do not have to come from the solar system"?
  5. # [00:02] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@203-214-145-24.perm.iinet.net.au)
  6. # [00:03] <jgraham> I can't imagine that there are a significant number of bodies that make trans-stellar journies and velocity higher than the escape velocity of the solar system
  7. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> I doubt there are many either. But that doesn't make them not asteroids.
  8. # [00:04] <jgraham> It depends if "not many" means "none"
  9. # [00:04] <jgraham> Also, wikipedia disagrees with you
  10. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> The universe is a big place, and orbital dynamics is complicated.
  11. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> No it doesn't. Note the "traditionally".
  12. # [00:04] <jgraham> And I can't find the IAU definition
  13. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Or rather, "historically".
  14. # [00:05] <jgraham> Sure, orbital dynamics is complicated and it is easy to believe that some material is ejected from solar systems
  15. # [00:06] * Quits: logand (~user@g226035240.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  16. # [00:07] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Note that the "historically" applies to "of the inner slar system"
  17. # [00:07] <jgraham> *solar
  18. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> True.
  19. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Still, I don't know if IAU has a better word for interstellar rocks, so I'm going with "asteroid" for them.
  20. # [00:09] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: wow, that's long; no time to read now
  21. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sorry. No problem.
  22. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Tell me when you respond, because I won't see it.
  23. # [00:10] * jgraham defers to Feynman: "You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts."
  24. # [00:10] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  25. # [00:12] * AryehGregor observes that cssquirrel.com's captcha is guessable with 50% probability, so doesn't seem very effective
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  27. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Just having *a* captcha of some kind is effective for preventing most spammers.
  28. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Anyone know any django in the room?
  29. # [00:15] <hober> TabAtkins: a bit
  30. # [00:15] <jgraham> TabAtkins: No, but ask anyway
  31. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Kk. I have a Test and a Comment class with a ManyToMany relationship. The Comment class has an Author field. I'd like to link things up so that Test has a reviewers field containing all the authors of comments connected to the test.
  32. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Any automagic way to specify that, or do I have to create a getter that does it manually?
  33. # [00:19] * gsnedders looks at how many photos he has from tonight, and wonders how many photos other people took
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  35. # [00:20] <jgraham> I took about 4
  36. # [00:20] <jgraham> Well more actually but about 4 with my camera
  37. # [00:21] * gsnedders remembers drinking water would probably be a good idea now
  38. # [00:22] <jgraham> And sleep
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  40. # [00:22] <zcorpan_> drinking sleep?
  41. # [00:22] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: You should've come!
  42. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: You see my message to you from yesterday re: keypress reasoning in webkit?
  43. # [00:23] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins: yes, thanks
  44. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> kk
  45. # [00:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: Because I manage to get so much of that nowadays
  46. # [00:25] <gsnedders> There again, despite lack of sleep I manage to look amazing alert for the amount of sleep I do get
  47. # [00:28] <gsnedders> Hmm, I think I took around half of the 54 photos on my camera
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  51. # [00:39] <zcorpan_> http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=683147 - people should write tutorials for converting common flash stuff to html5
  52. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Argh, their page-tracking script killed the tab.
  53. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Ah, better this time.
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  81. # [01:48] <Hixie> wow i had no idea that you could mail draft-abarth-origin@tools.ietf.org
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  84. # [01:48] <Hixie> that's pretty neat
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  91. # [01:59] <JonathanNeal> In HTML, when you have a label and an input, what would you call that pairing. I ask because I want to wrap it in a div and give it a classname that describes the content.
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  93. # [02:00] <JonathanNeal> I think it's a control, right?
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  108. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Labelled input?
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  143. # [04:10] <JonathanNeal> So, am I keeping up with the latest WHATWG changes @ http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.css ?
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  148. # [04:21] <karlcow> jgraham: definition of IAU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAU_definition_of_planet#Final_definition
  149. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> "Beaver Taste Great With Mustard"
  150. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> now that's good
  151. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> give us more of that kind of stuff please
  152. # [04:21] <karlcow> including http://www.iau.org/public_press/news/release/iau0601/q_answers/
  153. # [04:22] <karlcow> Hmm beaver!
  154. # [04:23] <karlcow> eating beaver like a mountain man
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  158. # [04:33] <othermaciej> Hixie: your description of which <a> elements on reddit are buttons vs. links makes me doubt my sanity
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  160. # [04:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's just a matter of what they look like
  161. # [04:42] <othermaciej> really?
  162. # [04:42] <othermaciej> are the semantics of all controls defined by their appearance rather than behavior, or only links and buttons?
  163. # [04:43] <Hixie> i don't understand the question
  164. # [04:43] <Hixie> the point of ATs is to expose what the controls look like to non-AT users
  165. # [04:43] <othermaciej> all right, let me give a concrete example
  166. # [04:43] <othermaciej> look at this control:
  167. # [04:43] <othermaciej> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%23mystery%20%7B%0A%20%20%20%20background%3A%20white%20url(http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fstatic%2Fgradient-button.png)%20repeat-x%20scroll%200%25%2050%25%3B%0A%20%20%20%20border%3A%201px%20solid%20%23C4DBF1%3B%0A%20%20%20%20display%3A%20block%3B%0A%20%20%20%20font-size%3A%20150%25%3B%0A%20%20%20%20font-weight%3A%20bold%3B%0A%20%20%20%20height%3A%2029px%3B%0A%20%20%2
  168. # [04:43] <othermaciej> tter-spacing%3A%20-1px%3B%0A%20%20%20%20line-height%3A%2029px%3B%0A%20%20%20%20position%3A%20relative%3B%0A%20%20%20%20text-align%3A%20center%3B%0A%20%20%20%20margin%3A%090px%3B%0A%20%20%20%20padding%3A%200px%3B%0A%7D%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%0A%3Cinput%20id%3Dmystery%20type%3Dtext%20value%3Dmystery%3E%0A
  169. # [04:43] <othermaciej> I guess I should shorten that, hold on a sec
  170. # [04:43] <Hixie> and the point of ARIA is to enable that to happen when the browser can't figure it out
  171. # [04:43] <othermaciej> http://bit.ly/cK5Cfo
  172. # [04:43] <Hixie> you can use hte "save" link
  173. # [04:44] <Hixie> to get a shorter URL
  174. # [04:44] <othermaciej> what are the semantics of that control?
  175. # [04:44] <othermaciej> is that control semantically a button?
  176. # [04:44] <Hixie> i don't know what you mean by "semantic" in this context
  177. # [04:45] <othermaciej> I am refering to whatever you meant when you wrote "Authors must not use elements, attributes, or attribute values for purposes other than their appropriate intended semantic purpose."
  178. # [04:45] <Hixie> the intended semantic purpose of <input type=text> is a text control
  179. # [04:45] <Hixie> is that the purpose to which you are putting it here?
  180. # [04:45] <othermaciej> am I correctly using it for the intended semantic purpose?
  181. # [04:46] <othermaciej> or am I abusing it for the semantic purpose of a button?
  182. # [04:46] <Hixie> you are using it to try to prove a point in an argument, so no, it's no the appropriate intended semantic purpose
  183. # [04:46] <Hixie> :-P
  184. # [04:46] <othermaciej> you seemed to argue that a link with that styling has the semantics of a button, even if it has the behavior of a link
  185. # [04:46] <othermaciej> whereas something that looks like a link but has the behavior of a button is a link
  186. # [04:46] <othermaciej> I am wondering how far that extends
  187. # [04:47] <othermaciej> my understanding of control semantics is that it's tied to the behavior, not the appearance
  188. # [04:47] <Hixie> not sure what you mean by "behaviour of a link" vs "behaviour of a button"
  189. # [04:47] <othermaciej> and I was mighty confused to see you argue otherwise
  190. # [04:47] <othermaciej> are you saying the only semantic difference between links and buttons is their visual appearance?
  191. # [04:47] <Hixie> isn't it?
  192. # [04:48] <othermaciej> my understanding is that the semantics of a link are that it links to something
  193. # [04:48] <othermaciej> and the semantics of a button are that it actuates a command
  194. # [04:48] <othermaciej> regardless of what either looks like
  195. # [04:48] <othermaciej> and that properly using an <a> element for a link has consequences such as appropriate cursor and status bar behavior on hover, being recognized as indexable by search engines, etc
  196. # [04:49] <Hixie> isn't "link to something" a command?
  197. # [04:49] <othermaciej> it's a specific subset of commands
  198. # [04:49] <othermaciej> there are clearly commands that are not a "link to something"
  199. # [04:49] <othermaciej> (such as the command performed by the reddit submit button)
  200. # [04:50] <othermaciej> er, the reddit share button
  201. # [04:50] <othermaciej> similarly, "toggle" is a form of command, but that doesn't mean buttons and checkboxes are interchangeable other than appearance
  202. # [04:50] <Hixie> i think i could convincingly argue this about 5 different ways if i tried
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  204. # [04:50] <Hixie> i don't think any of them would help us in the context of ATs and ARIA
  205. # [04:51] <othermaciej> I'm just trying to understand what it means to forbid using a link as a button
  206. # [04:52] <othermaciej> your argument seems to be based on the premise that doing that should be disallowed, but your examples of what does or does not constitute using a link as a button did not help my comprehension
  207. # [04:53] <Hixie> ok forget what i said about reddit. here's a better way to think about it based on what you said earlier.
  208. # [04:53] <othermaciej> and made me doubt my understanding of the requirement, ""Authors must not use elements, attributes, or attribute values for purposes other than their appropriate intended semantic purpose.""
  209. # [04:53] <Hixie> a link is something that provides the user with a URL
  210. # [04:53] <othermaciej> I would agree with that definition
  211. # [04:53] <othermaciej> (by that definition, "Submit a link" on reddit would be a link, but "share" would not)
  212. # [04:53] <Hixie> a button is something that provides the user with the option to activate something defined by the author at a user-selected time
  213. # [04:54] <othermaciej> and by that definition, "share" would be a button but you could also argue that all links (at least in the control sense) are also buttons
  214. # [04:54] <Hixie> so on reddit, the arrows and "share" should be buttons, and "submit a link" should be a link
  215. # [04:54] <othermaciej> I agree
  216. # [04:55] <Hixie> so using <a> for "share" is wrong
  217. # [04:55] <othermaciej> also agree
  218. # [04:55] <Hixie> ok
  219. # [04:56] <othermaciej> so looking at the specific example of "share", I think the point Steve and Sam were calling attention to was:
  220. # [04:57] <othermaciej> -> the spec makes it a validator error to put rule="button" on that <a> element, because it would be making an <a> element act as a button, contrary to its semantics
  221. # [04:57] <Hixie> the spec makes using <a> a validator error too, albeit one that few validators will ever be able to report in the coming few years
  222. # [04:57] <othermaciej> -> the spec does not make it a validator error to use href="#" onclick="..." on that <a> element, even though almost the sole use of that markup is to make an <a> element act like a button
  223. # [04:58] <Hixie> my point is that it does
  224. # [04:58] <othermaciej> (and similarly for href="javascript:...", although that's not used in this particular case)
  225. # [04:58] <Hixie> the spec does disallow that
  226. # [04:58] <othermaciej> it disallows the concept with a non-machine-checkable requirement, but does not make the syntax an error
  227. # [04:58] <othermaciej> however, it does make the syntax <a role="button"> an error
  228. # [04:58] <Hixie> right, role="" is a godsend here
  229. # [04:58] <othermaciej> with a machine-checkable rule
  230. # [04:59] <Hixie> it finally allows us an opportunity to catch this using a syntax error
  231. # [04:59] <Hixie> there are lots of things that cannot be caught using syntax errors
  232. # [04:59] <Hixie> they are no less errors
  233. # [04:59] <karlcow> othermaciej: the issue is in part what is the link. Is it a POST or a GET. http://bitworking.org/news/I_m_sorry__I_can_t_kiss_it_and_make_it_better_
  234. # [04:59] <othermaciej> in principle, a link with href="#" onclick="..." or href="javascript:..." could be a syntax error, unless that syntax serves a valid use case that cannot be achieved in any other way
  235. # [04:59] <Hixie> and when we can catch them we try to do so
  236. # [04:59] <Hixie> indeed
  237. # [05:00] <Hixie> (unfortunately, there are such use cases)
  238. # [05:00] <othermaciej> ok, so explaining what those are would help resolve the apparent contradiction
  239. # [05:00] <Hixie> the use cases?
  240. # [05:00] <othermaciej> since a naiive observer such as myself reading the change proposal might be unaware of those use cases
  241. # [05:00] <Hixie> href="javascript:"'s use case is exposing bookmarklets
  242. # [05:01] <karlcow> http://natbat.net/2009/Jun/10/styling-buttons-as-links/
  243. # [05:01] <othermaciej> good point
  244. # [05:01] <othermaciej> (my suggestion would be to cite these in your Change Proposal and/or in resolving SteveF's bugs when you get around to that)
  245. # [05:01] <Hixie> onclick="..."'s use case is for such things as click-tracking or general user interaction, or making links that are both functional in "AJAX" and static scenarios
  246. # [05:02] <Hixie> i don't understand why they are relevant to the change proposal
  247. # [05:02] <othermaciej> right, but you would never use href="#" [sic] for a click-tracked link that is supposed to work in both static and AJAX scenarios
  248. # [05:02] <karlcow> http://jontangerine.com/silo/html/button/
  249. # [05:02] <Hixie> making href="#" non-conforming might make sense
  250. # [05:03] <Hixie> it's kind of a weirdly specific case to disallow
  251. # [05:03] <Hixie> i mean i don't see much point linking to the same page, but why would we disallow it?
  252. # [05:03] <Hixie> it's just a relative URL...
  253. # [05:03] <othermaciej> I think Steve's point was that href="#" onclick="..." is exclusively used to make <a> elements act like buttons and has no valid use case
  254. # [05:04] <othermaciej> I agree that it would be an awfully specific thing to disallow, though one could claim the same of <a role="button">
  255. # [05:04] <othermaciej> anyway
  256. # [05:04] <othermaciej> I think those were the questions being asked
  257. # [05:04] <othermaciej> feel free to respond as you see fit
  258. # [05:04] <othermaciej> I should be going
  259. # [05:04] <Hixie> role="button" isn't specifically disallowed
  260. # [05:04] <Hixie> it's just not included in the list of things that are allowed
  261. # [05:05] <othermaciej> rather, it's not specifically allowed
  262. # [05:05] <othermaciej> anyway
  263. # [05:05] <Hixie> that's the opposite argument :-)
  264. # [05:05] <othermaciej> I don't want to argue the point further, you have explained these matters enough that I feel I understand them, but you may want to explain the above points on the list for the benefit of others
  265. # [05:06] <othermaciej> I hope that my confusion was understandable and I expect others may share it
  266. # [05:06] <othermaciej> thanks for the explanation
  267. # [05:06] <Hixie> the only others i care about here are sam and paul, frankly
  268. # [05:07] <Hixie> and last time i included counter-arguments in a change proposal i was told it was a waste of time
  269. # [05:07] <Hixie> and indeed it had no effect
  270. # [05:07] <Hixie> so i'm at a loss as to how to include this in a useful manner
  271. # [05:08] <othermaciej> I think they (and perhaps Steve) would likely benefit from an explanation of these points, even if it is just in an ordinary email to the list
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  273. # [05:08] <othermaciej> explaining to Steve is useful because if he chooses to withdraw his proposal or agrees to some compromise (e.g. disallowing href="#" onclick="..." and/or explaining in more detail that buttons shouldn't be abused as links and explaining the valid use cases for <a href="javascript:">), that ends the process without Sam or Paul's opinion being relevant
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  285. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> strawman attempt at a concise definition of what the term "the Web platform" means:
  286. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> [[
  287. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> "a client-side (browser-side) runtime/processing environment for
  288. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> Web applications and Web documents that are built using HTML,
  289. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> CSS, Javascript and a couple of other core-standard formats, and
  290. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> that are addressed and transmitted using HTTP, URIs and a couple
  291. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> of other core-standard protocols"
  292. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> ]]
  293. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> comments, suggestions, refinements, please
  294. # [05:43] <wirepair> 'couple of other' used 2x ...
  295. # [05:44] <roc> the list of relevant standards is much longer than that
  296. # [05:44] <wirepair> seems lil vaguish
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  302. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> it's intended to be minimal
  303. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> not to be an exhaustive list
  304. # [05:51] <roc> then just say "... and other standard formats"
  305. # [05:53] <MikeSmith> OK
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  321. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> oh, issue 56 is _my_ fault
  322. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> [[
  323. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> ISSUE-56 was raised in error by Michael(tm) Smith based on a
  324. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> misunderstanding of Roy's messages to the working group.
  325. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> ]]
  326. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> fwiw, there was never any misunderstanding
  327. # [07:53] <othermaciej> wait, what?
  328. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> not on my part at least
  329. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> I'm not even sure that I was the one who raised that issue initially, though I ended up becoming the owner for it
  330. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> Adam's change proposal
  331. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> which change proposal I personally happen completely agree with, fwiw
  332. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0394.html
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  341. # [08:14] <othermaciej> MikeSmithX: it's starting to seem like a better approach than either of the other proposals
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  343. # [08:19] <boblet> “We might actually be able to process hyperlinks interoperably, leading to joy and happiness… purveyors of whisky might go out of business.”
  344. # [08:19] <boblet> lol
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  348. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> I was going to say, the lesson for me here is to not raise issues on behalf of anybody else
  349. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> especially when I don't personally agree it's an issue
  350. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> but I actually learned that lesson quite a while ago
  351. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> which is why I don't do it any more
  352. # [08:24] <othermaciej> fortunately, the new process encourages people to raise their own issues, or at least provide issue text
  353. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> yeah
  354. # [08:26] <othermaciej> anyway, I am glad Adam posted that Change Proposal, even if he partly meant it as a reductio ad absurdum of the process
  355. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> yeah
  356. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> the summary is a very good and succinct statement of the fact that this is a non-problem
  357. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> and arguably always has been
  358. # [08:28] <othermaciej> well, he's actually arguing for a change relative to the way the spec is currently
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  360. # [08:28] <othermaciej> I think once I read his proposal closer I might conclude it lacks sufficient detail
  361. # [08:29] <othermaciej> though that could be fixed by linking to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/href/draft for instance
  362. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: well, let me put it this way: I don't think there is any risk of implementor confusion about this part of the spec, nor has there ever been
  363. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> I agree with what Adam writes about adding text for clarification, but I don't think it's all that necessary to add it
  364. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> except to appease those who have objected to the terminology
  365. # [08:32] <othermaciej> I don't think implementors would be confused by the different use of the word URL
  366. # [08:33] <othermaciej> so far none of them have been
  367. # [08:33] <othermaciej> I don't know about other possible audiences for the spec
  368. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> I don't think even a casual reader would be confused by it
  369. # [08:34] <othermaciej> I think the factoring issue (where should the processing to convert what occurs in an href attribute to a URI/IRI/whatever be defined, in HTML5 or in IRI or in some third document) is somewhat orthogonal to the terminology issue
  370. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> I don't think _anybody_ would really be confused by it
  371. # [08:34] <othermaciej> however, so far no one else has stepped up to the plate to write a viable spec for this
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  373. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> yeah, the factoring issue is certainly orthogonal
  374. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> and we did have come half-hearted previous attempts at writing a separate spec
  375. # [08:35] <othermaciej> ISSUE-56 is primarily about where the relevant spec text goes, not the terminology, that was ISSUE-72 which is already closed (by timeout)
  376. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> the other thing is, the term "URL" is long-deprecated by the purists anyway
  377. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> they have abandoned it
  378. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> so it's always seemed to me to be somewhat ironic to see an objection to how it's been used here
  379. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think this is one of those issues where you could count the number of people who feel strongly about it on one hand
  380. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> even if you were missing fingers
  381. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> not that the number of people objecting strongly is the only measure of whether it's important or not
  382. # [08:39] <othermaciej> I will say this - I personally care that the proper interoperable processing rules for browsers are spec'd *some*where
  383. # [08:40] <othermaciej> I don't care that much where that place is
  384. # [08:40] <othermaciej> I don't think the people with specific preferences in that regard should get unlimited time to produce something usable though
  385. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  390. # [08:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: ISO makes some of its spec available as .pdf.zip, which is just unbelievable user-hostile compared to posting .pdf with flate streams inside
  391. # [08:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: and you can get a useful reference by linking to a know-good rev of the wikipedia article
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  393. # [08:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: for defining the Open Web Platform, I suggest the following definition:
  394. # [08:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: give a feature one point for support in each of Gecko, WebKit, Presto and Trident in their latest versions
  395. # [08:59] * Joins: abarth_ (~abarth@c-98-210-108-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  396. # [08:59] <hsivonen> (so each feature gets a score from 0 to 4)
  397. # [08:59] <hsivonen> features that score 3 or 4 are part of the Platform
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  401. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: that is a great definition for us to use with each other
  402. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> but it's one that does not go over quite as well with others
  403. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> e.g., with non-implementors
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  413. # [09:30] <hsivonen> hooray to abarth_ for the Change Proposal for ISSUE-56
  414. # [09:30] <abarth_> hi hsivonen
  415. # [09:30] <abarth_> i should have been a spec lawyer
  416. # [09:31] <othermaciej> I appreciate that abarth_ posted it as well, even though part of it was vaguely trying to make fun of me
  417. # [09:31] <othermaciej> they should totally have spec law school
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  419. # [09:31] <othermaciej> but then you'd have to pass the spec bar exam to be allowed to practice as a spec lawyer
  420. # [09:32] <abarth_> the bit about whisky purveyors?
  421. # [09:32] <abarth_> :)
  422. # [09:32] <othermaciej> no, my borderline alcoholism is fair game
  423. # [09:33] <othermaciej> and may well go beyond borderline before HTML5 is done
  424. # [09:38] <zcorpan_> if we disallow href="#", all we'll achieve is to annoy authors and make them use href="#i-hate-html5" instead
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  427. # [09:40] <othermaciej> I personally think trying to enforce semantics via syntax errors is an ill-conceived project
  428. # [09:40] <zcorpan_> i agree
  429. # [09:41] <zcorpan_> also, the world doesn't fall apart if authors use <a role=button>
  430. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> abarth_: hey man
  431. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> sorry for any vehemence in my replies on public-html
  432. # [09:43] <abarth_> MikeSmith: hi
  433. # [09:43] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "The current text satisfies the above edit instructions (as I'm sure Tab intended)." i thought hsivonen wrote the counter proposal
  434. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> abarth_: I have to carefully preserve the fiction that I actually know what I'm doing
  435. # [09:43] <abarth_> haha :)
  436. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> :)
  437. # [09:44] <abarth_> MikeSmith: i'm trying to read public-html after filter out all the emotion
  438. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> I find that drugs help
  439. # [09:44] <abarth_> so, i think i missed any vehemence
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  446. # [09:49] <Hixie> zcorpan_: oops
  447. # [09:49] <Hixie> zcorpan_: oh well it's what happens because i ignore the From: line when reading e-mails!
  448. # [09:53] <Hixie> "the current text implies that HTML is super-easy, while XHTML is so hard that even the Working Group can't explain it"
  449. # [09:53] <Hixie> someone should propose a change proposal that makes it explicit that HTML is that hard
  450. # [09:53] <Hixie> since apparently julian doesn't think we've made that clear enough
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  452. # [09:57] * svl_ is now known as svl
  453. # [09:57] <asmodai> Hixie: hard/easy? In the context of writing a spec?
  454. # [09:58] <Hixie> er, s/HTML/XHTML/ in my above comment
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  463. # [10:14] <othermaciej> to be fair, HTML is also hard in many ways! though not escaping rules in particular
  464. # [10:18] <zcorpan_> Q: What are the risks?
  465. # [10:18] <zcorpan_> A: We might actually be able to process hyperlinks interoperably,
  466. # [10:18] <zcorpan_> leading to joy and happiness. With so much joy in the work, purveyors
  467. # [10:18] <zcorpan_> of whisky might go out of business.
  468. # [10:18] <zcorpan_> LOL
  469. # [10:18] <annevk> call for consensus for XHR CR
  470. # [10:18] <annevk> never got this close before
  471. # [10:18] <annevk> jippiedieyay
  472. # [10:19] <abarth> zcorpan_: omg, typo... s/work/world/
  473. # [10:19] <annevk> maybe it's more like jippydiyay
  474. # [10:20] <annevk> abarth, note that it's not just HTML that uses that kind of processing
  475. # [10:20] <abarth> ssh!
  476. # [10:20] <annevk> abarth, as you're probably aware, XMLHttpRequest, CSS, HTTP, etc. all use it
  477. # [10:20] <annevk> haha
  478. # [10:20] <annevk> but yeah, whatever
  479. # [10:24] <othermaciej> annevk: write some CR exit criteria please so I can support the CR transition in good consience
  480. # [10:28] <Hixie> annevk: you can crib the CR exit criteria from the whatwg charter if you like :-)
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  491. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> what does the "from TFA" part in dudes message mean?
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  495. # [10:50] <annevk> othermaciej, I plan to just use http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/#crec
  496. # [10:51] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  497. # [10:52] <Hixie> that's basicaly what the whatwg charter has
  498. # [10:52] <Hixie> (word for word)
  499. # [10:52] <othermaciej> annevk: it would be simpler IMO to just say there should be two implementations that pass every test case
  500. # [10:52] * hsivonen hadn't realized CSS had a 6-month rule
  501. # [10:53] <othermaciej> then you don't have to define the scope of what is a "feature"
  502. # [10:53] * Hixie agrees with othermaciej that that requirement is better -- require a comprehensive test suite and two fully compliant implementations
  503. # [10:53] <slartsa> hsivonen: what do you mean?
  504. # [10:54] <othermaciej> given the relatively small size of XHR, it would be silly to define different pieces of it as separate features, and a waste of time to debate which subsection levels constitute feature boundaries
  505. # [10:54] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/24 looks odd given PF's own statements
  506. # [10:54] <othermaciej> also it does not seem like a huge burden to expect two complete implementations
  507. # [10:54] <hsivonen> slartsa: I mean that 6 months from the start of CR has to pass even if the other criteria were met sooner
  508. # [10:55] <slartsa> now would that just be there to narrow possible errors?
  509. # [10:55] <othermaciej> annevk: those CR exit criteria also don't seem to say anything about the comprehensiveness of the test suite used to judge implementations of any given feature
  510. # [10:56] <hsivonen> slartsa: yeah, I just hadn't realized there was a 6-month rule
  511. # [10:56] <annevk> othermaciej, ok
  512. # [10:56] <othermaciej> also they effectively make all features potentially "at risk"
  513. # [10:56] <annevk> othermaciej, I wouldn't let it pass CR without two complete implementations and an extensive test suite, but maybe it is better to put that in writing indeed
  514. # [10:56] <othermaciej> which is explicitly disallowed by the W3C process
  515. # [10:57] <othermaciej> annevk: I would like to see that in writing, so there's no misunderstandings later with other WG members
  516. # [10:57] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@a91-154-41-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  517. # [10:57] <othermaciej> you're not allowed to just say "any feature without two implementations will be dropped", you have to list specific features as being "at risk" if they don't meet the relevant criteria
  518. # [10:58] <othermaciej> at least that is my recollection
  519. # [10:58] <othermaciej> for XHR I am not sure any features should be "at risk"
  520. # [11:00] <annevk> no I agree
  521. # [11:01] <annevk> ok, I'll take it more serious :)
  522. # [11:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: the csswg discussed that long ago and basically decided that they would go back to LC often enough anyway since they were going to maintain the spec that if that became an issue, they'd just cycle again and list the at-risk parts (or just remove them)
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  525. # [11:13] <annevk> TabAtkins, oh, it was a joke? you know, the CSS WG leaving px undefined would not be so surprising really :)
  526. # [11:16] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  527. # [11:20] <hsivonen> annevk: what was a joke?
  528. # [11:21] <annevk> http://twitter.com/fantasai/status/16181517781
  529. # [11:21] <annevk> this WebM stuff is problematic
  530. # [11:21] <annevk> YouTube now works in Opera
  531. # [11:21] <hsivonen> annevk: that was too subtle for me to realize it was a joke
  532. # [11:22] <hsivonen> annevk: so what's the problem with WebM?
  533. # [11:22] <hsivonen> annevk: youtube harms your productivity?
  534. # [11:22] <jgraham> hsivonen: What will people complain about?
  535. # [11:22] <annevk> hsivonen, exactly, I might end up watching YouTube all day
  536. # [11:23] <annevk> not having Flash helped a lot, but then they found this workaround
  537. # [11:23] <jgraham> I mean for 10.50 we got _so_many_ people saying "why doesn't HTML5 video work in Opera"
  538. # [11:23] <jgraham> because we didn't support H.264 Youtube
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  541. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Am I supposed to get a WebM-enabled Opera build from the "beta-stable" apt source?
  542. # [11:24] <annevk> should I read the 31 emails on "RE: Transferring File* to WebApps - redux"?
  543. # [11:24] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  544. # [11:24] <annevk> (I don't know the public sources for Opera distribution... I'm using the latest internal nightlies...)
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  546. # [11:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think you have to look at the desktop team blog
  547. # [11:25] <annevk> well, from an internal URL; there doesn't seem to be a much of difference anymore between what I use and someone who doesn't work for Opera; which is pretty great
  548. # [11:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: :-( the repo is offering 10.53.6330 to me
  549. # [11:26] <annevk> yeah, we should set up something like Chrome does
  550. # [11:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, I know, our update situation for dev builds really sucks
  551. # [11:26] <gsnedders> hsivonen: AFAIK beta still pushes stable for some raeson
  552. # [11:27] <annevk> in that thread someone mentions bondi
  553. # [11:27] * annevk ran away
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  558. # [11:44] <Lachy> annevk, the speech input proposal was linked to in a previous email. http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcfg79pz_5dhnp23f5
  559. # [11:45] <annevk> oh wow that looks complex
  560. # [11:45] <Lachy> I'm not sure I get the whole purpose of it. It's been possible to use speech input with any form control for years, given a microphone and speech recognition software.
  561. # [11:48] <annevk> there must be something why that doesn't just work, but it's not explained very well
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  563. # [11:49] <Lachy> ah, it describes utterrance="" and interpretation="" attributes that help with defining what speech commands are accepted
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  566. # [11:57] * Hixie tries to work out what faulkner's e-mail means... is he saying that when the WAI said we should have "strong semantics" or whatever it was that they were wrong?
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  570. # [12:12] <AryehGregor> Am I the only one who dies a little inside whenever I see a line beginning with ">From" in an e-mail when it should be "From"?
  571. # [12:13] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/xbl/ has no exit criteria?
  572. # [12:13] * annevk is looking at prior art
  573. # [12:17] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  574. # [12:17] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you are not
  575. # [12:18] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i die even more when it's my own e-mails
  576. # [12:19] <AryehGregor> :(
  577. # [12:19] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  578. # [12:19] <AryehGregor> If only the guy who came up with mbox had heard of reversible escaping.
  579. # [12:20] <AryehGregor> "Specifying a grammar is useful for apps which have limited vocabulary, for e.g. commands, navigation within page, maps etc. Such applications would not work as well with free-form text input. @pattern can be used to restrict the allowed inputs, but regular expressions are less expressive than context-free grammars." That sounds extremely scary.
  580. # [12:21] <workmad3> wow, it's been a while since I came across a discussion involving context-free grammars :)
  581. # [12:22] <workmad3> now, if only I could remember what they are and what characterized them...
  582. # [12:23] <AryehGregor> Are context-free grammars exactly those that can be described in BNF, by any chance? Like regular expressions and regex?
  583. # [12:23] * AryehGregor isn't sure.
  584. # [12:24] <workmad3> that's the problem :)
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  586. # [12:26] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-22-136.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  587. # [12:26] <AryehGregor> Am I the only one who finds back/forward in Chrome dev channel is sometimes incredibly flaky?
  588. # [12:28] <AryehGregor> It will regularly forget items in the history, and just now it completely made up a history entry. A page I visited once and bookmarked, months ago, replaced the entire history for the tab.
  589. # [12:28] <AryehGregor> I would report it, but haven't tried to reproduce it consistently . . .
  590. # [12:36] * Joins: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net)
  591. # [12:36] <oal> Is there a good article that describes WebSockets, and what it's all about?
  592. # [12:37] <Hixie> the spec has some intro material that might help
  593. # [12:38] <oal> Over at w3.org?
  594. # [12:38] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/network.html#introduction-7
  595. # [12:38] <oal> Thank you
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  600. # [12:48] <zcorpan_> speaking of websockets, does anyone know websocket demos/games/apps (that run in the browser)?
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  602. # [13:02] <zcorpan_> lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EozwYbMTtS0&feature=player_embedded
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  604. # [13:04] * AryehGregor is struck by how businesses actually use the word "proprietary" in a positive sense in their advertising, instead of in the witheringly negative sense that it has in standards circles
  605. # [13:04] <AryehGregor> "we use BGP best-path routing, combined with Mzima's proprietary route-analysis system to ensure your audience is always served fastest."
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  607. # [13:17] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I guess most demos are coded against -75 so far
  608. # [13:17] <jgraham> Oh wait
  609. # [13:18] <jgraham> Well I guess I mean most servers
  610. # [13:18] <jgraham> for the demos
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  614. # [13:21] <annevk> oh yes
  615. # [13:21] <annevk> donkey kong returns
  616. # [13:21] <annevk> win
  617. # [13:21] <annevk> specifically, donkey kong country, which was my favorite video game for like way long
  618. # [13:23] <zcorpan_> jgraham: yeah :(
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  622. # [13:58] <annevk> can people take a quick look at http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/#crec ?
  623. # [13:58] <annevk> it defines the CR exit criteria based on the discussion of this morning
  624. # [13:59] * Joins: knowtheory (~knowtheor@bas1-london16-1176189113.dsl.bell.ca)
  625. # [13:59] <annevk> just saying "ok" is enough :) I'd like to know if it's understandable
  626. # [14:02] <jgraham> annevk: ok afaict
  627. # [14:02] <annevk> cool
  628. # [14:04] * Joins: remysharp (~remysharp@89.191.20.67)
  629. # [14:05] <remysharp> question: should I be able to do document.querySelector('video').ontimeupdate = dostuff; ?
  630. # [14:06] <remysharp> I'm only able to bind to that event using addEventListener - which is fine, I just don't understand why
  631. # [14:06] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@24.148.174.112)
  632. # [14:06] <remysharp> compared to doing something like worker.onmessage = dostuff - which works with both addEventListener and inline
  633. # [14:06] <annevk> remysharp, bug in the browser
  634. # [14:06] <remysharp> okay - thought so.
  635. # [14:06] <remysharp> cheers
  636. # [14:07] <annevk> ontimeupdate is defined on HTMLElement iirc so it should be available on all HTML elements
  637. # [14:07] <annevk> maybe these so-called HTML5 testing sites should take that into account
  638. # [14:07] <remysharp> really? that ... seems odd to me, why would the timeupdate event be available on all element?
  639. # [14:07] <annevk> that's the way all event listeners work
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  641. # [14:08] <remysharp> ah, cool - I did not know that - but that's nothing new ;-)
  642. # [14:08] <remysharp> cheers again.
  643. # [14:09] <annevk> just a historical thing; though it does allow you to dispatch custom timeupdate events and listen for them
  644. # [14:09] <annevk> using the simpler on-eventname mechanism
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  651. # [14:56] * hsivonen finds it weird that Opera has Google in the toolbar but Bing in speed dial
  652. # [14:56] <hsivonen> (obviously, it has to be about how much each of them pays for placement, but it's still weird)
  653. # [14:57] <hsivonen> (yes, I did a fresh install on a fresh OS install)
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  656. # [15:02] <hsivonen> looks like YouTube has solved HTML5 video captioning on the JS level
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  672. # [16:04] <annevk> sometimes it feels like there is more regrets emails than actual progress
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  674. # [16:04] <TabAtkins> On that note, it looks like I'll have to regret today.
  675. # [16:05] <TabAtkins> Didn't realize I couldn't use my phone without logging into it, and I was never told me extension/password for the phone.
  676. # [16:05] <TabAtkins> Also left my cellphone at home. >_<
  677. # [16:06] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins: excuses!
  678. # [16:07] * TabAtkins hones his telepathic connection into the cellular network.
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  680. # [16:09] <annevk> unless specifically asked I'm no longer doing them
  681. # [16:09] <annevk> and even then I probably can't
  682. # [16:09] <annevk> I broke Skype
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  684. # [16:12] * Marcosc_ is now known as Marcosc
  685. # [16:14] <TabAtkins> Ooh, we the ability to upgrade our desktops to Lucid now. That should push my gnome version up high enough to finally install the compiz grid plugin!
  686. # [16:23] <TabAtkins> Crap, I've had a Dr. Horrible song in my head since yesterday. I need to go watch it again.
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  688. # [16:36] <johnst> TabAtkins, I wish for less noise in this channel.
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  691. # [16:37] <TabAtkins> johnst: ?_?
  692. # [16:38] <annevk> pony!
  693. # [16:38] <jgraham> johnst: Try #htmlwg on the w3c servers
  694. # [16:38] <annevk> if we're gonna do wishes and all
  695. # [16:39] <jgraham> er #html-wg
  696. # [16:39] <johnst> jgraham, :-)
  697. # [16:40] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Worth my time to update my two pending change proposals? I dunno if anything's happened to them since I stopped listening.
  698. # [16:43] <zcorpan_> should a document in an iframe be unloaded when the iframe is removed from the (parent) document?
  699. # [16:44] <TabAtkins> Related question: Does an <iframe> have to be in a parent document to receive it's own document?
  700. # [16:44] * erlehmann is now known as briesexuell
  701. # [16:45] <TabAtkins> (I was looking at Dean Edward's hack yesterday for ripping builtins out of an iframe to get around IE's bugs with subclassing Array.)
  702. # [16:45] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/506
  703. # [16:45] * briesexuell is now known as erduschmann
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  707. # [16:51] <annevk> gonna write a domintro box for XHR
  708. # [16:53] <zcorpan_> seems webkit and firefox unload but ie and opera don't
  709. # [16:53] <zcorpan_> ie8 is annoying with it's handling of data: urls
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  711. # [16:54] <zcorpan_> (if you try to open a data: url in an iframe, it redirects you to an error page)
  712. # [16:55] <TabAtkins> That does seem annoying.
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  715. # [17:02] <AryehGregor> Even more annoying, it doesn't support data: entered manually into the URL bar.
  716. # [17:03] <AryehGregor> That's like half the point of data: from my point of view.
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  719. # [17:04] <zcorpan_> AryehGregor: indeed
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  721. # [17:05] <AryehGregor> Although I guess normal web developers don't need to do minimal test cases much, which is what I use it for.
  722. # [17:05] <AryehGregor> So we're all probably atypical.
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  729. # [17:24] <Smylers> TabAtkins: In case this was after you stopped listening: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0072.html
  730. # [17:25] <Smylers> TabAtkins: I can't remember what Sam's feedback was, or why my comments would address it.
  731. # [17:26] <Smylers> TabAtkins: I wasn't attempting to address any of Sam's points when I wrote that.
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  733. # [17:27] <zcorpan_> Hixie: does ws://damowmow.com:11111/demo still work? seems to disconnect for me
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  753. # [18:31] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/blog/systeam/2010/06/16/why_we_chose_mercurial_as_our_dvcs
  754. # [18:35] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  755. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> I fiddled with Mercurial a bit, but I've gotten really used to git.
  756. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> git is complicated and unpredictable, but I was really annoyed more than once at Mercurial by not being allowed to roll back more than one revision, and some other things in that vein.
  757. # [18:38] <jgraham> I think mq will save you there
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  759. # [18:39] <jgraham> (well depending what you mean "rollback"_
  760. # [18:39] <jgraham> s/_/)/
  761. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> Probably.
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  763. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> I can't be bothered to seriously attempt to learn all the popular VCSes, though.
  764. # [18:40] <jgraham> I mean you can revert to an earlier revision
  765. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> I'm familiar with git and svn, that's good enough for me.
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  767. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> I can figure out enough of the others to check stuff out and make patches to submit if necessary, that's about all I need.
  768. # [18:40] <jgraham> I have been using git a lot recently and I quite like it, but it is pretty baroque in places. Mercurial is really very simple once you have the general idea
  769. # [18:40] <jgraham> Although hard things are still hard
  770. # [18:40] <jgraham> just not as hard
  771. # [18:41] <jgraham> I don't think I'm making any sense
  772. # [18:41] <gsnedders> You never do
  773. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Yes, "baroque" is a good word for git.
  774. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> I'm sure it makes perfect sense if you fully understand its implementation, but not otherwise.
  775. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Otherwise you learn how to do common tasks by trial and error and hope Google will help you find out how to do something new.
  776. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Because the man pages are often not helpful except as a reference if you already know exactly what you're doing.
  777. # [18:43] <jgraham> I think I mean that mercurial is easier for a large range of common use cases but might be harder for some less-common use cases
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  779. # [18:45] <jgraham> AryehGregor: If you can use git, it is a few minutes of effort to get reasonably proficient in mercurial
  780. # [18:46] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I've used it.
  781. # [18:46] <jgraham> Not "expert" level
  782. # [18:46] <AryehGregor> Both for fiddling and to submit a patch to Mozilla.
  783. # [18:46] <jgraham> But good enough for common things
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  786. # [18:55] <oal> Has anyone here done any work with web sockets yet?
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  796. # [19:11] <jgraham> oal: Yes
  797. # [19:11] <jgraham> people here have
  798. # [19:11] <jgraham> if you have a question I recommend asking it
  799. # [19:11] <jgraham> :)
  800. # [19:14] <oal> jgraham, just wondering if there are any good resources for learning how to use it? I've managed to send a handshake from a simple python server, but I can't send any messages
  801. # [19:15] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  802. # [19:15] <oal> I've looked at Amazon, but all the html5 related books are coming later this summer/fall
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  807. # [19:21] <jgraham> oal: Using what client?
  808. # [19:21] <oal> Google Chrome/Chromium
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  812. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> I hate it when discussion is split among multiple threads and I reply to one before I see other relevant replies.
  813. # [19:27] <oal> jgraham, any ideas?
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  822. # [19:59] <JonathanNeal> What would a tokenizer do? Like the one mentioned @ https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39259#c3 ?
  823. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokenizer
  824. # [20:04] <paul_irish> Aha... so what advantages do we expect from the html5 tokenizer landing in webkit?
  825. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> Little by itself. But it's the necessary first step to coding the HTML5 treebuilder.
  826. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Which *does* have benefits, namely everyone convering on using the particular parsing/building algo specified in HTML5, so all our pages always turn out the same everywhere.
  827. # [20:08] <paul_irish> Ah. gotcha. thx tab
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  829. # [20:13] <JonathanNeal> Thanks TabAtkins.
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  851. # [21:16] <oal> jgraham, I just bought "Pro HTML5 Programming" from Apress. It's an "alpha book" but some chapters are finished. The Web Socket one is :)
  852. # [21:16] <hsivonen> paul_irish: with the HTML5 landing in WebKit, the top 4 engines tokenize <div<div> the same way
  853. # [21:17] <hsivonen> *the HTML5 tokenizer landing
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  855. # [21:19] <zcorpan_> oal: i wonder if the book describes the server impl part, and if so, if it's -75 or -76
  856. # [21:21] <oal> zcorpan_, what chapter would that be in? These chapters are finished: Html 5 Canvas API, Working with HTML 5 audio and video, Geolocation, Communication API, Web Sockets API, Web Workers API and Web storage api
  857. # [21:21] <oal> brb
  858. # [21:21] <zcorpan_> oal: web sockets
  859. # [21:22] <oal> zcorpan_, ok, back in 20 min, poke me if I forget to look for it
  860. # [21:40] <zcorpan_> does the webkit tokenizer support the script states and never reparses?
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  862. # [21:49] <oal> zcorpan_, back
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  864. # [21:50] <oal> zcorpan_, I searched for impl, didn't find anything
  865. # [21:51] <bros> Is it ok to discuss HTML 5 here?
  866. # [21:51] <zcorpan_> oal: ok
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  870. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> bros: yeah.
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  872. # [22:07] <jgraham> oal: Sorry, went home
  873. # [22:08] <oal> jgraham, I'm reading the Web Sockets chapter now. Interesting :)
  874. # [22:09] <jgraham> oal: OK. It is woth knowing that the protocol changed a bit recently and so different versions of chrome connect to different servers
  875. # [22:09] <oal> I will try the code in the book and see how it works
  876. # [22:10] * gsnedders wonders what to do in the absence of any secret rendezvous
  877. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: overt rendezvous instead.
  878. # [22:12] <jgraham> oal: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/websocket/ is a working demo you can play with
  879. # [22:13] <zcorpan_> jgraham: not working for me today
  880. # [22:13] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Totally. With you and fanastai having done most of the (generic W3C) testing stuff (as well as the CSS stuff), we should totally have some informal F2F around the CSS WG F2F in Oslo
  881. # [22:13] <gsnedders> (if both of you will bethere)
  882. # [22:13] <gsnedders> *be there
  883. # [22:13] <oal> jgraham, will check it out. Thanks
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  885. # [22:13] <zcorpan_> jgraham: or ws://damowmow.com:11111/demo is not working
  886. # [22:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Unsecrify the previous one
  887. # [22:13] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Ah, I knew that
  888. # [22:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: ;)
  889. # [22:14] <jgraham> When is the CSS F2F?
  890. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I... have no idea what you're talking about. But yes, we totally should.
  891. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Augst 23-25.
  892. # [22:14] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You will get used to it
  893. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> I think both me and Fantasai arrive on saturday the 21st.
  894. # [22:15] * gsnedders should blatantly just go there for the weekend to party ;P
  895. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> Sounds fun.
  896. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> I'll be using Sunday to un-jetlag myself. Partying would presumably help.
  897. # [22:15] <gsnedders> hah
  898. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> We've got a big 7-person apartment that a bunch of us are sharing.
  899. # [22:16] <jgraham> I might tryto find an excuse to be in Oslo then
  900. # [22:16] <gsnedders> heh
  901. # [22:16] <gsnedders> Obviously you should be working on what I'm working on. It makes it so trivial. :P
  902. # [22:16] <jgraham> Just need to keep working on projects with people in Oslo and it shouldn't be too hard
  903. # [22:17] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  904. # [22:19] <zcorpan_> http://webreflection.blogspot.com/2010/06/websocket-handshake-76-simplified.html - hmm, i thought preg_match was not the way to parse the handshake
  905. # [22:19] <jgraham> zcorpan_: So find bugs in it :)
  906. # [22:20] <jgraham> Sigh. So much to do
  907. # [22:21] <zcorpan_> well for one it would fail (sometimes, depending on the order the fields end up in) if i set subprotocol to Sec-WebSocket-Key1: lol
  908. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> Hehe.
  909. # [22:22] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~webmaster@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  910. # [22:23] <Hixie> zcorpan_: that would be a pretty silly thing to do though :-)
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  912. # [22:24] <zcorpan_> i guess being a qa i spot such holes without thinking
  913. # [22:24] <zcorpan_> Hixie: so why is your websocket server not working?
  914. # [22:24] <Hixie> which?
  915. # [22:25] <jgraham> Hmm, I think it is more that being zcorpan_ you spot such holes without thinking
  916. # [22:25] * Hixie is pretty happy to see that all the work he did to come up with a system that could be implemented naively and yet still be secure worked :-)
  917. # [22:25] <zcorpan_> ws://damowmow.com:11111/demo
  918. # [22:25] <Hixie> zcorpan_: server is down - want me to turn it back on?
  919. # [22:25] <Hixie> up now
  920. # [22:25] <zcorpan_> yes please :)
  921. # [22:25] <zcorpan_> thanks
  922. # [22:26] <zcorpan_> jgraham: not all qas are as good as a zcorpan_ :)
  923. # [22:27] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I think I am not as evil as you. This makes me sad
  924. # [22:27] <zcorpan_> heh
  925. # [22:28] <jgraham> So on an entirely different topic setCaretSelectionRect
  926. # [22:29] <jgraham> Why do they need a width and height?
  927. # [22:29] <jgraham> It seems like it should be sufficient to give a point an a direction for a magnifier
  928. # [22:29] <jgraham> since presumably it needs to know about the direction of the text and where it starts
  929. # [22:30] <jgraham> but the size of a single character seems less relevant
  930. # [22:30] <gsnedders> Well, I'm glad your less evil than zcorpan_, jgraham
  931. # [22:31] <gsnedders> I mean, I actually (really) have to share a room with you, rather than just in theory
  932. # [22:32] <gsnedders> s/your/you're/
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  943. # [22:48] <Hixie> well this is a pretty good explanation of why technical development shouldn't be done using the htmlwg issue process or the consensus-driven process the task force is using: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0427.html
  944. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> "ARIA does not intrude on the visual experience and has near ubiquitous adoption."
  945. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> . . . how are we counting "adoption" here?
  946. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Damn, you beat me to it.
  947. # [22:51] * TabAtkins was just pasting that line in.
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  949. # [22:54] <jgraham> Hah, I hadn't even noticed the bit about adoption
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  954. # [22:59] <zcorpan_> http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=%5Cbaria- 4000 results
  955. # [23:00] <zcorpan_> http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=%3Cplaintext 4000 results
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  958. # [23:04] <jgraham> Well to be fair I guess they mean adoption amongst UAs
  959. # [23:05] <jgraham> although a11y is hard because you can get 100% adoption amongst UAs and it doesn't matter a whit if authors don't use it or use it incorrectly
  960. # [23:05] <zcorpan_> it was in response to "... That suggests that it will be widely ignored or misused."
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  965. # [23:12] <bros> I would like to discuss the handshaking process of the WebSockets API. Is it open for discussion?
  966. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> a11y people seem to focus on making features that authors could possibly use correctly if they really tried, rather than making ones that typical authors are likely to use correctly in practice without trying hard (or at all).
  967. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> bros, speak and you'll be heard.
  968. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Various people here are qualified to comment.
  969. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: ?_?
  970. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Yes, that statement is completely correct.
  971. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> To be fair, it's probably impossible to design a system where authors design accessible pages without trying.
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  973. # [23:15] <bros> I think trying to formulate an argument solved my own problem. I was trying to make my own very mini "WebSocket server" in C when I realized I would have implement, or copy an already exisiting implementation of the MD5 hashing function. I thought this was crazy just to handshake but now I realized WebSocket servers are going to be implementing functionality such as caching, etc. which would use MD5 checksums.
  974. # [23:16] <zcorpan_> you could design a system where authors design pages that are accessible as a result of the author trying to achieve something else (seo, validation, or zeldman semantic kool-aid)
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  977. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> Only to a limited degree, in practice.
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  979. # [23:17] <zcorpan_> yeah
  980. # [23:17] <bros> Is the WebSocket client-server handshaking process thought of as acceptable? 2 keys needing to be decoded/converted to integers/divided then a separate key needed to be concatenated with the other 2 back in string form, then hashed?
  981. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> I haven't seen an effective solution to get typical authors to write decent alt text.
  982. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> Would it be in the spec if no one thought it was acceptable?
  983. # [23:17] <bros> No.
  984. # [23:17] <bros> What is the purpose of it?
  985. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> I'm not a WebSocket expert, but my impression is it's meant to prevent various types of security problems.
  986. # [23:18] <jgraham> bros: It is designed to prevent cross-protocol attacks
  987. # [23:18] <jgraham> using web sockets to spoof non-web-socket protocols
  988. # [23:19] <jgraham> which would be bad if the servers talking those protocols weren't expecting random web pages to connect
  989. # [23:20] <jgraham> (which they aren't, in general)
  990. # [23:20] <bros> It is there so current HTTP servers will not have to be re-written, and only servers that want to handle WebSockets need to implement it?
  991. # [23:21] <jgraham> Hixie: why does drawFocusRing take a canDrawCustom argument rather than a function that would be called to draw a custom focus ring if needed?
  992. # [23:22] <jgraham> bros: That is a seperate issue really
  993. # [23:22] <zcorpan_> bros: i think http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg01198.html identified some security problems with the old protocol
  994. # [23:23] <jgraham> The fact that you can implement WebSockets on top of existing HTTP servers is considered an advantage though
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  1002. # [23:40] <MikeSmith> as far as HTML5 processing of MathML and SVG in text/html, is it intended that a UA should actually render content in <annotation-xml> elements?
  1003. # [23:40] <MikeSmith> because as far as I can see from checking in Minefield, it doesn't seem to be rendering SVG content in <annotation-xml>
  1004. # [23:42] <zcorpan_> sicking: rich said 90% of web sites, not users
  1005. # [23:43] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i thought Jacques was using svg in annotation-xml
  1006. # [23:43] <MikeSmith> I thought he was too
  1007. # [23:44] * MikeSmith goes back to look at his site
  1008. # [23:44] <MikeSmith> http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001475.html
  1009. # [23:48] <MikeSmith> but he's not serving that as text/html
  1010. # [23:49] <MikeSmith> and when I try to process it as text/html, it does not seen to render as expected
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  1012. # [23:49] <MikeSmith> the SVG-in-MathML part, I mean
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  1015. # [23:52] <MikeSmith> ah wait
  1016. # [23:53] <MikeSmith> after removing the namespace prefixes, it does
  1017. # [23:56] <zcorpan_> seems annotation-xml is display:none in opera
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  1019. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: that seems odd
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  1021. # Session Close: Thu Jun 17 00:00:00 2010

The end :)