/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 18 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:06] <jgraham> <b><button>foo</b> should reopen the <b> inside the button these days, right?
  7. # [00:08] <fagan> jgraham: well the button itself isnt going to be bold the text is so it should be inside the button tag
  8. # [00:08] <jgraham> fagan: Indeed, but not quite the point
  9. # [00:08] <jgraham> The point is how the error recovery is supposed to work
  10. # [00:09] <jgraham> button used to insert a marker on the list of active formatting elements so that the <b> would never apply inside the <button>. That seems to have changed
  11. # [00:09] <fagan> jgraham: just tested it in chrome and <b> outside the button tag doesnt work
  12. # [00:10] <jgraham> fagan: That could be why it changed :)
  13. # [00:10] <fagan> true
  14. # [00:10] <jgraham> Although I guess it is more likely to be IE compat
  15. # [00:10] <jgraham> Er, wait
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  17. # [00:11] <jgraham> The chrome behaviour is the old behaviour, obviously
  18. # [00:11] <fagan> lol
  19. # [00:14] <jgraham> Hmm, I am clearly too tired for this
  20. # [00:14] <jgraham> Hixie: If you fancy looking at parser bugs relatively soon it would be appreciated
  21. # [00:16] <fagan> jgraham: which browser ?
  22. # [00:17] <zcorpan_> fagan: jgraham is tearing apart the html5 parsing algorithm
  23. # [00:17] <fagan> ah ok
  24. # [00:18] * fagan knows the engine side of things but not the algorithm stuff
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  26. # [00:21] <fagan> I wonder how up to date the html checker is on the w3 site for html5
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  28. # [00:22] <fagan> Im doing a few websites in it at the moment and they are passing fine but id hate for them to not be valid later on
  29. # [00:22] <fagan> no matter anyway
  30. # [00:22] <Hixie> use validator.nu, that's probably the most up to date
  31. # [00:23] <Hixie> validators will catch more and more errors as they get better though
  32. # [00:23] <Hixie> so it's normal to see new errors be caught over time :-)
  33. # [00:23] <zcorpan_> not to mention that html5 can still change out from under you
  34. # [00:24] <fagan> isnt it last call for changes now?
  35. # [00:24] <zcorpan_> sure
  36. # [00:24] <Hixie> last call doesn't mean no changes :-)
  37. # [00:24] <zcorpan_> it can still change
  38. # [00:24] <Hixie> the spec will continue changing its whole life, as people find new problems
  39. # [00:24] <Hixie> when it stops changing is when it's dead
  40. # [00:25] <fagan> true but still I would have thought that the biggest changes have already happened
  41. # [00:26] <Hixie> the biggest ones probably have, yeah
  42. # [00:28] <fagan> I just love the video and audio if nothing else was done but that I would have been very very very happy
  43. # [00:28] <fagan> but thats not the only thing I know
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  47. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> Where's the big combined Web Apps 1.0 spec?
  48. # [00:41] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@203-158-36-251.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  49. # [00:41] * AryehGregor is trying to determine how the size of Hixie-edited specs compares to the total output of the CSSWG across its entire existence
  50. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> Oh, drat, not all the W3C specs are single-page.
  51. # [00:42] <zcorpan_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html
  52. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  53. # [00:43] <AryehGregor> I didn't see a link anywhere on the website.
  54. # [00:43] <Hixie> it's there, but i try not to scare people off too much
  55. # [00:43] <fagan> I would be nice if it was split up a little
  56. # [00:43] <Hixie> fagan: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/
  57. # [00:43] <AryehGregor> Web Apps 1.0: ~5.3 MB
  58. # [00:43] <AryehGregor> All of the stuff I could easily get from the CSS WG without looking at every spec: <3 MB
  59. # [00:44] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you really want to compare the source documents, the post-processor adds a ton of cross-reference stuff
  60. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> Are the source documents for all the CSS specs readily available?
  61. # [00:44] <Hixie> i use way more hyperlinks in my specs than most people
  62. # [00:44] <Hixie> AryehGregor: no idea
  63. # [00:44] <fagan> Hixie: that is a huge page :)
  64. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> The CSS specs have a lot of repeated boilerplate, though, from the headers on every one.
  65. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> Source is almost as large.
  66. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> >4 MB.
  67. # [00:45] <Hixie> fagan: complete/ is a split up version of complete.html
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  70. # [00:50] <fagan> Hixie: but still its about a 2 day read start to finish
  71. # [00:50] <fagan> Oh and I love the joke in the how to read this document part :D
  72. # [00:50] <Hixie> splitting it up doesn't make it smaller, no :-)
  73. # [00:50] <Hixie> just makes it have multiple pages
  74. # [00:51] <fagan> true but most people would be interested in specific parts
  75. # [00:51] <fagan> but I suppose they could just look at the index and jump around
  76. # [00:52] * fagan understands
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  78. # [00:54] <zcorpan_> fagan: what joke?
  79. # [00:54] <fagan> zcorpan_: read it the entire way through, read it again, read it backwards then jump around to the bits you are interested in
  80. # [00:55] <zcorpan_> fagan: i think that's not a joke
  81. # [00:55] <fagan> has to be joking
  82. # [00:55] <Hixie> it's one of those "it's funny because it's true" things
  83. # [00:55] <fagan> reading stuff backwards makes my head hurt
  84. # [00:56] <fagan> words stop making sense
  85. # [00:56] <fagan> :)
  86. # [00:56] <annevk> it just means you have to read it a lot
  87. # [00:56] <annevk> which not many people do, so there may be some issue
  88. # [00:57] <fagan> annevk: I just like to keep up with it :)
  89. # [00:58] <annevk> for that all you need is http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  90. # [00:58] <annevk> :)
  91. # [00:58] <zcorpan_> in my experience just reading a spec doesn't give you a useful understanding of it, no matter how many times you read it
  92. # [00:58] <fagan> annevk: true but I hate that page
  93. # [00:59] <zcorpan_> you have to do something actively with it to properly understand it, like implement it or write a testsuite for it
  94. # [00:59] <fagan> dont ask me why
  95. # [00:59] <zcorpan_> and you're better off focusing on one part at a time instead of reading cover to cover
  96. # [01:00] <fagan> zcorpan_: I focus on the bits im interested in and the bits I would use most
  97. # [01:00] <annevk> zcorpan_, I can answer quite a lot of questions within seconds/minutes by having read most bits of the specification a few times
  98. # [01:00] <fagan> (and just skip the rest)
  99. # [01:00] <fagan> I read all the common stuff too though
  100. # [01:00] <zcorpan_> annevk: sure, but you can't find fundamental spec bugs by just reading it, or can you?
  101. # [01:00] <zcorpan_> i can't
  102. # [01:02] <zcorpan_> bedtime, nn
  103. # [01:02] <annevk> oh yeah, finding the real big issues requires implementation experience
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  111. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> It's amazing how much smoother to use Gmail is on my tiny Nexus One than on my desktop.
  112. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> I wonder: is this some deficiency in the web platform, or just Gmail not caching things locally aggressively enough?
  113. # [01:56] * AryehGregor bets the latter, wonders why
  114. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> Local Storage size on disk for mail.google.com: 3 KB for http, 3 KB for https. :/
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  124. # [02:40] <karlcow> hmm the discussions about editors drafts, working drafts, etc. is argueing if it's bad or not
  125. # [02:40] <karlcow> INSTEAD of trying to list the issues/needs and how we solve them.
  126. # [02:42] <Dashiva> Issue: working drafts are always out of date
  127. # [02:42] <karlcow> Dashiva: I would add a "for [here an audience]"
  128. # [02:42] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-zcpuupjklzohroec) (Quit: Leaving)
  129. # [02:42] <karlcow> for example in your sentence.
  130. # [02:43] <AryehGregor> Why would anyone want to use an out-of-date draft?
  131. # [02:43] <AryehGregor> For any purpose?
  132. # [02:43] <AryehGregor> It's obsolete.
  133. # [02:43] <karlcow> Issue: last drafts of a specification is useful for some implementers.
  134. # [02:43] <Hixie> the only audience for which out of date drafts is useful is spec archeologists, like when henri and i try to work out why something was done
  135. # [02:43] <Hixie> but with HTML5, the whatwg svn repo is far more useful for that now
  136. # [02:44] <karlcow> How do we solve it? What is needed in the document, etc. Editor drafts could be retitled Developers Edition
  137. # [02:44] <Dashiva> Resolution: Stop issuing working drafts
  138. # [02:44] <Dashiva> Editor's draft covers all the use cases
  139. # [02:45] <karlcow> AryehGregor: People who need stability: Book writers, documentation writers, etc. A lot easier to update your work big by big step than because on a moving target with micro-edits
  140. # [02:45] <Hixie> Dashiva: that's what i did at the whatwg when i realised this problem existed
  141. # [02:45] <Dashiva> Should we really be encouraging people to write outdated documentation?
  142. # [02:45] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925210541.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb)
  143. # [02:45] <AryehGregor> karlcow, why would you want to write a book based on a snapshot that's months out of date? If you really want that, you can pick a specific revision from SVN and only use that.
  144. # [02:46] <AryehGregor> At least that will be up-to-date as of the time you start writing.
  145. # [02:46] <AryehGregor> But I'll stick to stuff written by people who actually follow spec changes, for my part.
  146. # [02:46] <karlcow> AryehGregor: because not everyone is a geek aka pick up a version in SVN
  147. # [02:46] <AryehGregor> Then why the heck are they writing documentation for a spec?
  148. # [02:46] <Dashiva> People who write books and documentation should be competent enough to do so
  149. # [02:47] <karlcow> Dashiva: why do you hate freedom? ;)
  150. # [02:47] <Hixie> nobody's stopping someone from taking a snapshot of the PDF or HTML versions of the spec
  151. # [02:47] <Dashiva> I don't hate freedom, I hate freedumb
  152. # [02:47] <Hixie> doesn't mean we need to make explicit copies
  153. # [02:48] * AryehGregor just wrote a 1377-word blog comment about HTML5
  154. # [02:48] <karlcow> It is usually wiser for the peace of each community to give tools that these communities need. (if they need it :) )
  155. # [02:48] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: 40 words too many!
  156. # [02:48] <othermaciej> which blog?
  157. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, <http://www.cssquirrel.com/2010/06/15/693comic-update-html5-unicorn-heuristics/comment-page-1/#comment-32000>, but it has to pass moderation because of the links I put in for references.
  158. # [02:48] <Dashiva> (People are free to be dumb, but we are not obligated to help them)
  159. # [02:49] <othermaciej> there's been some interesting discussion in those comments
  160. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> karlcow, so people who actually want a snapshot can just save the page to their hard disk. What's the problem with that?
  161. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> WD would make sense if there were some meaningful procedure for approving it, so it were actually more likely to be correct than an ED, but that's not the case.
  162. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, I have hopes of converting Kyle Weems to the Light Side.
  163. # [02:50] <karlcow> AryehGregor: I have no issue with people saving a copy, they can do it already :)
  164. # [02:50] <AryehGregor> I think he's just misinformed.
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  167. # [02:51] * karlcow wishes that people could accept diversity in opinions ;)
  168. # [02:51] <Dashiva> Diversity in opinions is fine
  169. # [02:51] <Dashiva> Diversity in facts is not
  170. # [02:51] <karlcow> religious statement
  171. # [02:52] <karlcow> too far for me
  172. # [02:52] <karlcow> :)
  173. # [02:52] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I think your messages in those comments come across as fairly rational and balanced
  174. # [02:52] <Dashiva> I should probably cite properly
  175. # [02:52] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, hope so!
  176. # [02:52] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: even though you are kind of questioning the quality of my service as chair :-p
  177. # [02:52] <AryehGregor> The last sentence of my new one is "If the W3C is unwilling to accept that, it will become a victim of natural selection, like it or not", but I think I supported it fairly well.
  178. # [02:53] <Dashiva> "You’re entitled to your own opinions. You’re not entitled to your own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
  179. # [02:53] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, don't worry, I'm only comparing you unfavorably to Hixie. That's not an insult in absolute terms.
  180. # [02:54] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, can I be entitled to my own facts if I write a suitably advanced virtual reality program that implements them?
  181. # [02:56] <karlcow> AryehGregor: that is a lot more reasonable and basically what every society does.
  182. # [02:56] <AryehGregor> What, writing suitably advanced virtual reality programs?
  183. # [02:56] <Dashiva> No, you have to pass a Trial of Philosophy to justify why a virtual reality should be considered factual first
  184. # [02:57] <Dashiva> How come these discussions always start hours past midnight
  185. # [02:57] <Dashiva> Time to sleep
  186. # [02:57] * Quits: deepthawtz (~deepthawt@c-24-130-129-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  187. # [02:57] <karlcow> hehe
  188. # [02:57] <AryehGregor> Because you live in the wrong time zone?
  189. # [02:57] <karlcow> Dashiva: because you are living in your own reality
  190. # [02:58] <Dashiva> CET is the best time zone ever
  191. # [02:59] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, reality is indistinguishable from a sufficiently good illusion. Ergo, there is no difference according to any empirical worldview, and empirical worldviews are the only ones that count because all others are stupid. QED.
  192. # [02:59] <Dashiva> Then you have to prove that your virtual reality is sufficiently good
  193. # [02:59] <Dashiva> A sort of a turing test, if you will
  194. # [02:59] <AryehGregor> That was postulated.
  195. # [02:59] <AryehGregor> "suitably advanced"
  196. # [03:00] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
  197. # [03:00] <Dashiva> Besides, people outside would be able to notice those on the inside, and thereby be able to reject their statements about the warped reality
  198. # [03:01] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, yes, but that's exactly what we were talking about: everyone gets their own version of the facts.
  199. # [03:01] <Dashiva> No, some people get a warped reality and other people get facts
  200. # [03:02] <Dashiva> Surely you do not consider the worldview of a lunatic to be factual?
  201. # [03:02] <Dashiva> "There will have to be a couple of implementations before CR of HTML5, anyway."
  202. # [03:03] <Dashiva> It's like nobody even cares what the process really says anymore
  203. # [03:03] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, but if everyone uses VR adjusted to taste, then everyone's reality will be equally accurate.
  204. # [03:03] * Joins: titacgs (~titacgs@190.2.33.49)
  205. # [03:04] <Dashiva> You postulate a world in which a) everyone is in a virtual reality and b) nobody realizes they are in a virtual reality
  206. # [03:04] <AryehGregor> Sure. Maybe we're in one already. Can't say.
  207. # [03:04] <AryehGregor> Just as good as actual reality.
  208. # [03:04] <karlcow> hehe
  209. # [03:04] <Dashiva> Not quite
  210. # [03:04] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  211. # [03:04] <Dashiva> Even if we cannot say for sure if our reality is indeed reality, we can say for sure that virtual realities inside our own reality are not reality
  212. # [03:05] <karlcow> Dashiva: and it is not an issue
  213. # [03:05] <AryehGregor> Also, a lunatic's worldview is indistinguishable from a factual worldview, from the lunatic's perspective. Other people think the opposite, but in principle, that can be a perfectly symmetric disagreement, and we only win by majority vote.
  214. # [03:05] <karlcow> as long as you have developed a coherent system for you and maybe your social groups.
  215. # [03:05] <AryehGregor> We don't know that virtual realities inside our own reality are not reality if we make ourselves all forget.
  216. # [03:06] <karlcow> Physics (science) is all about *creating* a reality.
  217. # [03:06] <AryehGregor> I'm speaking from the viewpoint of us after we all go into the VR and forget everything.
  218. # [03:06] <Dashiva> If everyone in reality forgets about reality in favor of a virtual reality, then the reality is no longer part of their conceptual universe
  219. # [03:06] <AryehGregor> In that situation, it would be fair to say that everyone gets to have their own version of reality.
  220. # [03:07] <AryehGregor> Right, exactly.
  221. # [03:07] <Hixie> as a physicist by training, i have to take objection ot the idea that physics _creates_ reality
  222. # [03:07] <AryehGregor> Me too, as a physics minor!
  223. # [03:07] <AryehGregor> Although it would be cool if it did.
  224. # [03:07] <Hixie> unless you have a very odd definition of "reality"
  225. # [03:07] <AryehGregor> I always play wizards in fantasy games. :(
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  227. # [03:07] <Dashiva> That's not very physicsy of you
  228. # [03:08] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/2010/09/web-on-tv/
  229. # [03:08] <AryehGregor> No, it's perfectly physicsy. I'm just utilizing the laws of physics that are present in a hypothetical alternate reality where they allow me to, say, cause you to spontaneously catch fire when I get annoyed at you.
  230. # [03:08] <karlcow> :D
  231. # [03:08] <Dashiva> Also known as wish fulfillment
  232. # [03:09] <AryehGregor> Exactly!
  233. # [03:09] <karlcow> Dashiva: and you are still not in bed.
  234. # [03:09] <Dashiva> I actually have both feet in bed
  235. # [03:09] <karlcow> TMI
  236. # [03:09] <Dashiva> The bed is my foot stool
  237. # [03:10] <Dashiva> The bookshelf is my monitor stand
  238. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> Awesome, this is how web PDF support should have always been done: http://blog.chromium.org/2010/06/bringing-improved-pdf-support-to-google.html
  239. # [03:18] <karlcow> hmmm, if I can still download the pdf locally or save the generated html on my computer I'm ok.
  240. # [03:18] <karlcow> Browser is not the best tool for me to read a pdf.
  241. # [03:18] <karlcow> I have seen this today too http://simonwillison.net/2010/Jun/17/pdfjs/
  242. # [03:19] <AryehGregor> I'd way prefer to get a good PDF reader implementation in a browser than to have to use external programs.
  243. # [03:19] <karlcow> AryehGregor: and me the opposite. every taste in nature ;)
  244. # [03:20] <AryehGregor> Anyway, things I was supposed to do tonight: file health insurance claim, buy several things, study some religious texts, pack for trip, go to bed early. Things I actually did: chat on IRC.
  245. # [03:20] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
  246. # [03:20] <AryehGregor> Good night.
  247. # [03:20] <roc> roc
  248. # [03:21] <AryehGregor> o_O
  249. # [03:22] <karlcow> AryehGregor: nite nite
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  251. # [03:24] <roc> oops
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  253. # [03:30] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/ Web Browser Performance mailing List
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  277. # [05:07] <abarth> Hixie: no complaints from day 1 of the HTML5 tokenizer in WebKit nightly
  278. # [05:08] <abarth> Hixie: that's pretty good :)
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  283. # [05:21] <roc> karlcow: what is that mailing list actually for?
  284. # [05:31] <karlcow> roc: I guess what it says, but we might see soon.
  285. # [05:31] <roc> it doesn't say anything
  286. # [05:32] <roc> why do we need a mailing list to discuss browser performance?
  287. # [05:33] <karlcow> roc: I think you should ask plh. I found out through twitter
  288. # [05:33] <roc> oh, I thought you W3C people had some sort of cabal
  289. # [05:33] * karlcow notes to roc that he is not working at W3C
  290. # [05:33] <roc> hum
  291. # [05:34] <roc> oh well
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  293. # [05:35] <karlcow> roc: http://twitter.com/w3c/statuses/16421966743
  294. # [05:35] <karlcow> and the page says "Discussion related to Web browser performance "
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  298. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> I forget -- is there a way to express negation with CSS selectors?
  299. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> e.g., to express "the first child that is not [something]"?
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  306. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> roc, karlcow - that list is essentially just for discussion of the Web Timing spec
  307. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> at this point
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  309. # [06:04] <karlcow> ah
  310. # [06:04] <karlcow> MikeSmith: thanks. We always need a Mike in one's pocket… hmmm did I write that. I guess so ;)
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  317. # [06:06] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebTiming/
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  322. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> riding on a bus from Tokyo to Nagano is not the best way to get stable Internet connectivity
  323. # [06:09] <wirepair> i love nagano
  324. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> karlcow: btw, have you been following the current problems with the W3C markup validator
  325. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> wirepair: I never been there
  326. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> this will be my first visit
  327. # [06:10] <wirepair> ah nice, it's very very clean air
  328. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> to Matsumoto, actually
  329. # [06:10] <wirepair> ahh...
  330. # [06:10] <wirepair> i was out in the woods hehe
  331. # [06:10] <karlcow> MikeSmith: about LibXML? I agree with your suggestion
  332. # [06:13] <karlcow> checking the page served as text/html with an html validator. The issue is to give the possibility for people who are working with local document. Upload of an XHTML document. You do not know how it will be served. So in the UI it has to be super clear what is happening
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  337. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> karlcow: I suppose I would not object to having it do XML WF-ness checking on file uploads by default
  338. # [06:25] * karlcow replied
  339. # [06:25] <karlcow> MikeSmith: have you seen Iwate's Matsuo. Quite impressive. http://www.michaeljohngrist.com/2009/08/the-mist-wreathed-apartments-of-matsuo-mine/
  340. # [06:25] <karlcow> never seen it myself
  341. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> but I really don't think it's productive for it to be doing XML WF checking on remote docs served as text/html
  342. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> and iirc the performance problem is for checking of remote docs
  343. # [06:26] <karlcow> yep agreed
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  345. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> I seem to remembers somebody commenting on the validator list that they had no problems if they checked files by upload instead of by HTTP
  346. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> have not seen
  347. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> wow, looks great
  348. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> beautiful decay
  349. # [06:29] <karlcow> yep
  350. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> "dilapidation's progresses are organized decays"
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  359. # [07:05] <hsivonen> what's the web on tv workshop trying too accomplish?
  360. # [07:05] <othermaciej> hello all
  361. # [07:05] <hsivonen> hi
  362. # [07:06] <hsivonen> s/too/to/
  363. # [07:06] <othermaciej> there's a "web on tv" workshop?
  364. # [07:07] <hsivonen> according to the scrollback
  365. # [07:09] <hsivonen> what pdf implementation does chrome use?
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  367. # [07:10] <hsivonen> and will it be in chromium, too?
  368. # [07:12] <hsivonen> I wish Gecko came with Poppler built-in, but probably not gonna happen due to licensing
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  384. # [07:20] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: when you say "Firefox currently", do you mean 3.6 and not the trunk?
  385. # [07:20] <hsivonen> my notion of current is the trunk
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  418. # [09:36] <annevk> sigh
  419. # [09:36] <annevk> PFWG persists in their thinking that having three value syntaxes for WAI-ARIA is better than one
  420. # [09:37] <annevk> that seems like something an overarching body like the TAG could tackle
  421. # [09:37] <annevk> instead of all this polyglot bullshit
  422. # [09:38] <annevk> (and with three I mean potentially infinite)
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  429. # [10:24] <Dashiva> http://twitter.com/simonstl/status/16439272227
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  432. # [10:27] <annevk> yeah, and some part doesn't work in Chrome, and some not in Opera, and some not in Firefox... ooh
  433. # [10:27] <Dashiva> And some parts do work in IE6 :P
  434. # [10:28] <annevk> heh
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  437. # [10:32] * jgraham is disturbed that he seems to have had a dream about breaking and entering Hixie's house
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  439. # [10:33] <jgraham> Although I think I was looking for him at the time rather than wanting to steal all his stuff
  440. # [10:34] <jgraham> And I think (although this part is really hazy) I eventually found him but he looked a lot older than in real life
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  445. # [10:44] <annevk> sounds like vacation time :)
  446. # [10:46] <annevk> also that the PFWG puts DAISY on equal footing with HTML and SVG ... oh well
  447. # [10:47] <annevk> maybe we should just define the "host blah blah" mapping in HTML5 and use that everywhere and fix the specification to match reality later
  448. # [10:47] <annevk> that's probably the easier way to fix this
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  451. # [10:51] <hsivonen> annevk: I think the PF really should focus on Web languages
  452. # [10:53] <annevk> meanwhile the WOFF people have not read the CORS specification which clearly says the API (@font-face in their case) is in charge of the request semantics whereas they make it dependent on the format
  453. # [10:54] <annevk> it is becoming quite clear that the reason the web platform is so inconsistent is because nobody really knows how it works but is extending it in their own vision anyway without regards to precedence and design patterns that came before
  454. # [10:55] <annevk> and in this case not even with regards to things that came before, as CORS is being developed pretty much in line with @font-face / WOFF and is pretty clear on how CORS API specifications ought to work and all
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  458. # [10:58] <annevk> (not that I think it is at all justified that something like @font-face would use CORS, but that is a different matter)
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  463. # [11:14] <hsivonen> annevk: indeed.
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  465. # [11:15] <hsivonen> annevk: There's some old stuff that came about by Netscape Netcenter or Bugzilla devs just asking for something and Gecko developers simply said "OK".
  466. # [11:16] * hsivonen wonders if Apple and Opera are taking action on fingerprinting. (see https://panopticlick.eff.org/ )
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  469. # [11:18] <abarth> hsivonen: that's a hard problem
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  471. # [11:20] <hsivonen> abarth: I think there are easier parts and harder parts.
  472. # [11:20] <hsivonen> there are 4 zones: HTTP request, CSS, JS and plug-ins
  473. # [11:20] <abarth> does it help to do some but not all of them?
  474. # [11:21] <hsivonen> abarth: I think it does
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  476. # [11:21] <jgraham> presumably that depends on how much information you need to make reliable guesses about identity
  477. # [11:21] <hsivonen> abarth: if you do HTTP, you force fingerprinters to expose evidence of their activities to the client
  478. # [11:21] <abarth> ic
  479. # [11:22] <hsivonen> abarth: which means that big players with the widest ability to track people across the Web would be exposed to regulatory solutions
  480. # [11:22] <abarth> i have a link to the Fingerprint moz wiki page
  481. # [11:22] <abarth> but i haven't read it yet
  482. # [11:23] <hsivonen> my wishful thinking is that the plug-in part can be mitigated by treating everything but Flash as obsolete and by having .swf as click-to-play by default
  483. # [11:23] <hsivonen> but I realize this is wishful thinking
  484. # [11:24] <hsivonen> also, I have a naive Mac/Linux user POV
  485. # [11:25] <hsivonen> I'm saddened to see what kind of NPAPI cruft gets installed on Windows machines
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  490. # [11:30] <hsivonen> whoa! after a couple of days of having Windows 7 installed and only installing other browsers, security patches, virus scanner and trying to install XP Mode but failing, IE8 running in full screen is already unique
  491. # [11:31] <hsivonen> maybe that's because I haven't installed Flash or Java, and not having those is rare
  492. # [11:31] <jochen__> hsivonen: i heard you think about reducing fingerprinting possibilities with http?
  493. # [11:31] <jochen__> hsivonen: any plan what to do there without making half of the webpages unusable? :)
  494. # [11:32] <hsivonen> jochen__: well, I filed all the obvious pieces of the HTTP part of the puzzle as bugs yesterday, but I'm not sure where it's going to go
  495. # [11:32] <hsivonen> jochen__: as far as I can tell, the only hard part about HTTP request is Accept-Language
  496. # [11:32] <jochen__> mind linking them from wiki.mozzila.org/Fingerprinting?
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  498. # [11:33] <hsivonen> jochen__: the tracking bug is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=http-fingerprint
  499. # [11:33] <jochen__> ta
  500. # [11:33] <hsivonen> jochen__: I'll add it to teh wiki
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  504. # [11:36] <hsivonen> oh yeah, OS/CPU is probably politically hard, even though is terms of actual Web compat you get far without them
  505. # [11:38] <volkmar> i see some css selectors are defined in html5 specs, does that mean a request/issues related to that should be expressed in whatwg ml?
  506. # [11:38] <volkmar> or i should use www-style
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  509. # [11:41] <Matjas> tabindex=0 enables keyboard navigation for any element. However, I would expect the click event to fire for those elements when pressing Enter/Space while they’re focused. Any reason why that’s not the case?
  510. # [11:42] <Matjas> Enter/Space fires click for every element that’s keyboard-focusable by default
  511. # [11:44] <annevk> I argued that we should do that
  512. # [11:44] <annevk> and make onclick="" elements focusable
  513. # [11:44] <annevk> but not enough browsers did it to begin with so they would first have to be changed as the reasoning, I believe
  514. # [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk: Hixie's reasoning, PF reasoning or someone else's reasoning?
  515. # [11:51] <annevk> Hixie; he just wanted to match reality for now
  516. # [11:51] <annevk> (though Opera has the nicer behavior afaik)
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  518. # [11:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: <b><button></b>. AFAICT that should reopen the <b> element inside the <button>, but it seems that gecko does not
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  520. # [11:56] <jgraham> hsivonen: Am I missing something?
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  522. # [12:05] <Matjas> annevk: Exactly. What Opera does feels like "the right thing"
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  524. # [12:09] <annevk> hsivonen, interesting work on fingerprinting
  525. # [12:10] <annevk> hsivonen, I think I'll copy some of your bugs and file them on Opera; see what happens
  526. # [12:15] <annevk> nuking Accept-Charset makes a lot of sense
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  528. # [12:25] <hsivonen> annevk: the sad part is that there's so much fear of making Firefox lead on this issue. The parts that are the easiest to argue are the ones where IE is already leading... Like Accept-Charset.
  529. # [12:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: the <button> situation sucks. I haven't properly though about <b><button></b>.
  530. # [12:26] <hsivonen> one option is to just revert it into scoping and let the German Figure Collector site break
  531. # [12:26] <daedb> woah, .Net framework adds itself to Firefox's ua string now too, not just IE :O
  532. # [12:27] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
  533. # [12:28] <hsivonen> daedb: using what mechanism? Whatever ships with Windows 7 doesn't tamper with the UA string of Minefield
  534. # [12:28] <hsivonen> everyone wants to add their mark to the UA string :-(
  535. # [12:28] <daedb> I don't know, but I have "(.NET CLR 3.5.30729)" at the end of my Firefox ua string right now (and Firefox was installed long after .Net 3.5)
  536. # [12:29] <hsivonen> daedb: do you see a .Net-specific add-on?
  537. # [12:29] <daedb> The :net framework assistant, yes, but it's disabled.
  538. # [12:30] <annevk> hsivonen, the others are more tricky I guess, yes
  539. # [12:31] <hsivonen> speaking of HTTP request headers, Opera Mobile on Maemo sure has a long Accept header
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  541. # [12:39] <karlcow> hsivonen: worse than everyone wants to add their mark, nobody wants to remove the old ones. the pile is going up, up, up. :) I wonder if there is a physical limit to the size of UA string (characters number)
  542. # [12:40] <annevk> we cleaned it up a little bit
  543. # [12:40] <annevk> but then it exploded again ffs
  544. # [12:41] <hsivonen> annevk: Opera has cruft in the various Accept headers that clearly isn't critical for Web compat
  545. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Accept-Encoding is longer than in IE and Gecko, for example
  546. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Accept-Charset advertises UTF-16!!!!
  547. # [12:42] <hsivonen> those aren't fingerprinting-relevant, but just saying
  548. # [12:42] <karlcow> hehe
  549. # [12:42] <annevk> hsivonen, bug on accept-charset is filed
  550. # [12:43] <hsivonen> Mozilla has a "guardian of the Accept header", but clearly, there should be "guardian of the UA string, too"
  551. # [12:43] <hsivonen> s/, too"/", too/
  552. # [12:43] <annevk> what is "identity" in A-E? or "sdch" (Chrome has that)
  553. # [12:44] <annevk> we even have spaces between the values
  554. # [12:44] <annevk> very generous
  555. # [12:45] <hsivonen> annevk: Shared Dictionary Compression over HTTP says the first hit on Google
  556. # [12:45] <hsivonen> IIRC, identity is just sending the plain bytes
  557. # [12:45] <hsivonen> without compression
  558. # [12:45] <annevk> http://groups.google.com/group/SDCH
  559. # [12:47] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/ct-guidelines/#sec-Mobile-DOCTYPES
  560. # [12:48] <hsivonen> karlcow: that's sad
  561. # [12:48] <karlcow> reality is sad ;)
  562. # [12:49] <annevk> filed a bug on Accept-Encoding
  563. # [12:49] <annevk> "This list is not exhaustive and is likely to change." jaja
  564. # [12:49] <hsivonen> karlcow: fortunately, Fennec, Opera Mobile, Opera Mini and Mobile Safari work despite "reality"
  565. # [12:50] <annevk> 2.0 of "Web Content Transformation Proxies" will say they realize now the whole thing is sort of dead
  566. # [12:50] <karlcow> hsivonen: do you mean they are happy? :)
  567. # [12:50] <annevk> (I'm making that up, but that appears to be reality)
  568. # [12:50] <hsivonen> karlcow: they seem happy to me :-)
  569. # [12:51] * karlcow is making apologizes for his morning syllogism :) still only one eye opened. :)
  570. # [12:52] <annevk> another thing that is sad is that Accept: is still not */*
  571. # [12:53] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, though it might be wise to wait for IE9 to have been in the market for a while before trying to change that
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  573. # [12:53] <annevk> I thought IE had that since IE6 or so
  574. # [12:54] <hsivonen> annevk: I meant the reason not to have Accept: */* is negotiating application/xhtml+xml
  575. # [12:54] <annevk> but we don't want that :)
  576. # [12:55] <hsivonen> if IE9 says */* but support XHTML+SVG *maybe* it'll make Accept-based negotiation less popular
  577. # [12:55] <annevk> more often than not XML does harm to our end users
  578. # [12:57] <karlcow> what would be the benefit of Accept: */*, because I had a use case in the past where a precise Accept would have helped filtering a DDOS
  579. # [12:58] <hsivonen> karlcow: fewer bytes to send, fewer problems for non-IE browsers when webmasters goof
  580. # [12:58] <annevk> omitting it entirely breaks
  581. # [12:59] <karlcow> my issue was the Accept for GET /blabla resulting from an IMG
  582. # [12:59] <hsivonen> karlcow: you should just fix your site :-)
  583. # [12:59] <karlcow> I had no control on it
  584. # [13:00] <karlcow> the ddos was generated by a site with a very high trafic and a bad link.
  585. # [13:00] <hsivonen> karlcow: 99.99999% of webmasters wouldn't apply your mitigation method anyway, so it's not useful to support your mitigation method on the browser side
  586. # [13:00] <annevk> karlcow, you could have done something based on Referer
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  588. # [13:01] <hsivonen> karlcow: if it was cross-origin, the Origin header will save us
  589. # [13:02] <karlcow> annevk: nope. because it would have removed valid request too :) but I'm more sympathetic to the argument of hsivonen. In the end, we just block the query on that page until we found out where the problem was :)
  590. # [13:03] <karlcow> s/block/blocked/
  591. # [13:03] <annevk> no it wouldn't
  592. # [13:03] <annevk> if you just blocked that specific referer for that resource it would've been fine
  593. # [13:15] <Dashiva> karlcow: I don't see how it makes sense to talk about a stable snapshot or milestone of an incomplete in-development specification
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  596. # [13:15] <Dashiva> You can make snapshots and you can assign milestones, but they are arbitrary, not stable
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  598. # [13:16] <jgraham> My pet example of why /TR is evil is WebIDL
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  601. # [13:17] <jgraham> I have eventually learnt that you can find the actual latest version by being careful about whether you insert a space between Web and IDL in google
  602. # [13:17] <Dashiva> karlcow: If you agree about the stable part, wouldn't a permalink in each editor's draft satisfy the snapshot use case?
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  604. # [13:18] <annevk> great, Jonny was already on Accept-Encoding simplification
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  613. # [13:31] <zcorpan_> shouldn't the web timing spec put its stuff on the navigator object?
  614. # [13:32] * zcorpan_ imagines window.performance is already taken by web authors
  615. # [13:34] <annevk> yeah, you should say that
  616. # [13:34] <annevk> putting new stuff on navigator when it is somewhat sensible is better than bloating window even more
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  618. # [13:38] <hsivonen> there should be a standing memo for spec editors about that
  619. # [13:38] <jgraham> But everyone loves everything being in the global scope, right?
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  621. # [13:42] <Dashiva> Maybe we need a new parent object for stuff that doesn't really fit on navigator :)
  622. # [13:44] <jgraham> Personally I want more properties on the window object that just refer to the window object
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  624. # [13:45] <jgraham> window.Hofstadter for example
  625. # [13:46] <annevk> Dashiva, the bar for navigator is low enough
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  630. # [14:21] <annevk> god
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  632. # [14:21] <annevk> why would http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5105&to=5106 fail but http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5104&to=5105 would work?
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  636. # [14:26] * hsivonen wonders why Opera still ships with both the "Opera Standard" and "Windows Native" skins when the "Opera Standard" skin is *more* Windows 7 -like of the two very similar skins
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  639. # [14:37] <annevk> hsivonen, we'll soonish no longer do Accept-Language
  640. # [14:38] <annevk> maybe I should file some more bugs on our network module; he's being pretty active :)
  641. # [14:38] <annevk> euh, Accept-Charset
  642. # [14:38] <annevk> my bad
  643. # [14:38] <hsivonen> annevk: cool anyway
  644. # [14:45] <hsivonen> aargh. Radiance and Ambiance are FAIL with Eclipse
  645. # [14:46] <hsivonen> still wondering how Canonical didn't have some kind of organizational function to stop the Lucid default theme
  646. # [14:46] <annevk> btw, I'm not really part of Opera QA, but then I don't really have a better description available either :)
  647. # [14:46] <jgraham> It is pretty awful
  648. # [14:46] <hsivonen> annevk: sorry
  649. # [14:46] <jgraham> Not anne's job, the Lucid theme
  650. # [14:47] <annevk> heh
  651. # [14:47] <annevk> how do you know? :p
  652. # [14:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: they should hire whoever is developing Elemental
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  654. # [14:48] <hsivonen> (but having him/her/they make a theme that doesn't feel like too much of an Apple rip-opp)
  655. # [14:48] <hsivonen> *off
  656. # [14:49] <hsivonen> also, Radiance could be tweaked not to suck
  657. # [14:49] <hsivonen> Ambiance is just massive FAIL
  658. # [14:50] <jgraham> It's hard to believe that the people who designed it actually use it
  659. # [14:56] <hsivonen> s/Elemental/Elementary/
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  670. # [15:52] <karlushi> Dashiva, it could be. :) we just have to find a model which makes it usable for different types of communities and not too burdensome to manage. Often we know our current burden, it's rare we understand the issues we create when changing. But yes it could be a good idea.
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  674. # [15:59] <jgraham> karlushi: I am really not sure who the community is that wants a version of the spec with fewer bugfixes in than the current version
  675. # [16:00] <jgraham> I think the stable/editor's draft model is designed around an idea of spec development that doesn't really match reality, at least for the way HTML5 is developed
  676. # [16:02] * hsivonen observes that when document.write() implies a call to document.open() in Gecko, the call is always to the built-in open() and not to whatever the page has replaced open() with
  677. # [16:02] <karlushi> I do not claim reality. ;) Just trying to identify use cases.
  678. # [16:03] <hsivonen> karlushi: so what's the use case of reading a spec you know is an already-obsolete draft when you know you could read the latest draft?
  679. # [16:04] <jgraham> That is, if you have stable versions, N, N+1, etc. and unstable drafts at all times t, it only makes sense to promote version N if, on averge, version N is closer to version N+1 than unstable version at time t(N)<t<t(N+1)
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  681. # [16:04] <karlushi> hsivonen, will there be at a point a stable version?
  682. # [16:05] <hsivonen> karlushi: I expect there will be, but not one that's useful to read
  683. # [16:05] <karlushi> hsivonen, for you and implementers, not useful indeed.
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  685. # [16:06] <Lachy> hsivonen, the use case for snapshots is so you can compare what was written at the time of the snapshot with what is now written, which is easier than digging through CVS/SVN logs.
  686. # [16:07] <jgraham> karlushi: It is possible to be unstable, but to be convering on a stable point
  687. # [16:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: that's a reasonable use case
  688. # [16:07] <karlushi> translation is another use case. Translating a document which is changing all the time is hell.
  689. # [16:08] <hsivonen> karlushi: you just pick the draft that's the most current when you start translating
  690. # [16:08] <karlushi> s/you/one/ who's not necessary a geek.
  691. # [16:10] * gsnedders likes what jgraham is typing now
  692. # [16:10] <jgraham> Heh, putting <plaintext> in <table> so it gets foster parented is amusing
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  694. # [16:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: tinfb
  695. # [16:10] * gsnedders is psycic
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  716. # [17:20] <annevk> hmm, guess I'll look into the html5.org issue tomorrow or so
  717. # [17:20] <annevk> not gonna happen now
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  740. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, my notion of "current" for most software is "current version I'm using", which might be current stable or trunk or something in between or maybe slightly older than current stable. In this case, 3.6; didn't bother to test on trunk because it didn't matter. I should have specified, though, since it's ambiguous.
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  800. # [20:59] <Gurpartap> HTML6 http://www.artisopensource.net/hacks/deliciouspoetry.php?cshow=5217210
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  808. # [21:30] <jrgarrison> I'm confused about something mentioned in the last paragraph of the message at http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-June/026728.html
  809. # [21:30] <jrgarrison> "I should have written input type=file accept='audio/x-speex;quality=(0-10);bitrate=...;source=microphone' to reflect the newly-announced Android/Firefox placement of the source= parameter."
  810. # [21:31] <jrgarrison> does anybody know what announcement this refers to?
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  818. # [21:46] * AryehGregor has no idea.
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  820. # [21:56] <variable> question: is there a slightly more offical method of tracking proposals than the mailing list? I know about the bug list for the W3C. Does the WHATWG have anything similar?
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  824. # [22:16] <Dashiva> The issue tracker
  825. # [22:17] <Dashiva> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/
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  827. # [22:19] <variable> Dashiva, thank
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  832. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> My giant comment got accepted. Everyone feel free to complain about how terribly wrong I am, particularly since I don't have such a good grasp on the history here. http://www.cssquirrel.com/2010/06/15/693comic-update-html5-unicorn-heuristics/comment-page-1/#comment-32000
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  837. # [22:52] <johnst> tl;dr
  838. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> :)
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  858. # Session Close: Sat Jun 19 00:00:00 2010

The end :)