/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 23 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <erlehmann> But I laughed like a little girl, thank you, hats of.
  4. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Man, I wish English used asymmetric quotes like that.
  5. # [00:00] <erlehmann> Incidentally, I have two hats right in this room.
  6. # [00:00] * TabAtkins has no hats, and thus is sad.
  7. # [00:00] <zcorpan_> erlehmann: are they talking to each other?
  8. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Next time I visit my parents I'm buying a proper cowboy hat, for reals this time.
  9. # [00:00] * TabAtkins has to show off his Texan pride.
  10. # [00:01] <erlehmann> zcorpan_, i believe those hats were already dead and stuffed when my dad bought them.
  11. # [00:01] * zcorpan_ wonders what he should play with next using websockets
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  13. # [00:02] <franksalim> zcorpan_, what have you played with so far?
  14. # [00:02] * Quits: jrgarrison (~garrison@wikiotics/jrgarrison) (Client Quit)
  15. # [00:02] <zcorpan_> chat room and multi-user painting
  16. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Multi-user doom.
  17. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Which means, I suppose, Quake.
  18. # [00:04] <zcorpan_> i want something i can hack in a few hours :)
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  20. # [00:06] <zcorpan_> maybe i should find some single-player canvas game that i can easily implement multiplayer support
  21. # [00:06] <Philip`> Canvex!
  22. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Is there any such thing as a single-player game where it's easy to implement multiplayer support?
  23. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> I'd think that would typically require a rewrite.
  24. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> The box-drawing game. Where you draw lines on a grid and score a point (and get to go again) whenever you finish all four sides of a box.
  25. # [00:07] * Philip` wishes he could remember where he put his experimental multiplayer version
  26. # [00:09] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Turn-based games are bad demos, since latency doesn't matter and you could just do an XHR per turn
  27. # [00:09] <Philip`> Need something real-time to demonstrate the benefit of having a persistent socket
  28. # [00:09] <roc> pong
  29. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Philip`: True.
  30. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> 2-player asteroids!
  31. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Both ships up at once, explode on collision, winner is the one with the most points at the end of each round.
  32. # [00:10] <Philip`> Pong is probably too real-time - it'll look weird when the ball bounces even though it looked like it missed the opponent's bat
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  34. # [00:10] <Philip`> and you can't do much decent lag compensation for Pong
  35. # [00:12] <ment> what about ssh client? that's a good game that could benefit from persistent connection where latency matters but not too much
  36. # [00:15] <zcorpan_> pong seems interesting to do
  37. # [00:15] <Hixie> zcorpan_: what would be really useful is a web page you can go to and give the client information (origin, ws: URL, etc) and have it tell you what the server is doing wrong
  38. # [00:15] <Hixie> zcorpan_: including checking for various obvious mistakes, like whether the challenge was constructed little-endian rather than big-endian, or whatnot.
  39. # [00:16] * Hixie is writing a multiplayer websocket game here http://software.hixie.ch/fun/cuddlyworld/
  40. # [00:17] <Hixie> (very early days yet)
  41. # [00:17] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (Quit: roc)
  42. # [00:17] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i use opera's error console to tell what the server is doing wrong ;)
  43. # [00:17] <Hixie> (and ignore how slow it is, that's just because i have all the debugging checks enabled)
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  45. # [00:18] <Philip`> Tron is more interesting than Pong and not much harder to implement
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  47. # [00:18] * Philip` wrote a basic Tron on his calculator but it was a really very slow calculator and only got about 0.5fps :-(
  48. # [00:19] <zcorpan_> Hixie: what user/pass should i use to play?
  49. # [00:19] <Hixie> any
  50. # [00:19] <Hixie> it creates an account when you join
  51. # [00:19] <Hixie> the password is for rejoining
  52. # [00:19] <Philip`> (then I wrote an emulator (in Perl and C) for a ~1MHz 8-bit processor and then wrote Tron for that and it was much faster)
  53. # [00:20] <Hixie> zcorpan_ a utility for testing servers would be good for checking that they handle all the various keys correctly --just testing in a browser isn't going to hit all the edge cases each time
  54. # [00:21] <zcorpan_> hmm, clearly we need a longer timeout before giving up in the opening handshake
  55. # [00:21] <Hixie> er no
  56. # [00:21] <Hixie> my server crashed
  57. # [00:21] <Hixie> for unrelated reasons
  58. # [00:21] <Hixie> restarting it
  59. # [00:24] <Hixie> well, it seems i have some bugs to figure out before i can demo this!
  60. # [00:24] <Hixie> anyway, bbiab
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  63. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> I remember recently seeing statistics on how long things tend to stay in browsers' caches, but I can't seem to find them. Does anyone have any pointers?
  64. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> (My recollection is typically less than a day, but I want to double-check that.)
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  111. # [02:56] <annevk> hmm, will update html5-diff tomorrow
  112. # [02:56] <annevk> time for some water now, you know
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  121. # [03:39] <jwm> does QQaalalala
  122. # [03:39] <jwm> hmm
  123. # [03:39] <jwm> heh
  124. # [03:39] <jwm> time for dinner
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  146. # [05:15] <othermaciej> hi all
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  155. # [06:08] * abarth|treeburne is now known as abarth
  156. # [06:10] <roc> TabAtkins: have you tried inspecting the shadows with some kind of screen magnifier? Preferably one that can show the actual color values of pixels?
  157. # [06:21] * Joins: Viper550 (~lirodon@wikipedia/ViperSnake151)
  158. # [06:22] <Viper550> Is it me, or is the forum scrpt that whatwg uses not html-compliant?
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  164. # [06:43] <Viper550> hey?
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  167. # [06:48] <Hixie> Viper550: it is almost certainly not particularly good code, indeed
  168. # [06:49] <Hixie> Viper550: we didn't use the quality of the code as a deciding factor in picking the software :-)
  169. # [06:49] <Viper550> you've seen fluxbb 1.4?
  170. # [06:51] <Viper550> In case you haven't heard, its a fork of punbb 1.2
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  172. # [06:52] <Hixie> Viper550: i don't know much about forum software personally
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  191. # [08:08] <annevk> you'd think Leif would have noticed I didn't reply to any comment on html5-diff since last time I made it ready and that last time I replied to age old comments
  192. # [08:09] <annevk> it is of course more interesting to assume the chairs and I ignored him, because then you can vent frustrations, even if not at all justified
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  199. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: is Guo Fu a family name or a personal/given name?
  200. # [08:36] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: it's a word. It means "Country Father" :)
  201. # [08:37] <kennyluck> father of a country
  202. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> oh
  203. # [08:37] <kennyluck> (well, it's possible that someone has this given name, but this is kind of odd then)
  204. # [08:42] <annevk> MikeSmith, we're gonna publish tomorrow?
  205. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: yes
  206. # [08:42] <annevk> okay then
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  208. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: as soon as you have your doc ready, let me know, and I will move it over to the dated TR location
  209. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> and will let the webmaster know it's ready
  210. # [08:45] <annevk> yeah, I'll go through the new comments now and see what needs changing
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  222. # [09:07] <abarth> Hixie: the bit about spinning the event loop isn't who things work internally
  223. # [09:07] <abarth> Hixie: nested event loops are bad new bears
  224. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> interesting to see a Microsoft commenter on the whatwg mailing list
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  226. # [09:14] * MikeSmith wonders what "Live Labs / Seadragon" is
  227. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> abarth: I seem to remember hsivonen mentioning something about nested event loops recently
  228. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> in bugzilla or here
  229. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> I wonder if the context is the same
  230. # [09:15] <abarth> I think the behavior ends up being the same
  231. # [09:15] <abarth> it's just a difference in the processing model from the actual processing
  232. # [09:16] <abarth> the problem with nested event loops
  233. # [09:16] <abarth> is you get in trouble when you try to unwind them
  234. # [09:16] <abarth> because lots of stuff gets re-entered
  235. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> ah
  236. # [09:16] <abarth> that might not be expecting it
  237. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can imagine
  238. # [09:16] <abarth> the parser needs to be re-entrant, which makes it tricky
  239. # [09:17] <abarth> DOM mutation also needs to be re-entrant, which is really hard'
  240. # [09:17] <abarth> and the source of lots of bugs :(
  241. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> that I also can imagine
  242. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> or actually, remember
  243. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> from previous life in browser product development
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  245. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> abarth: the context of your current discussion about this is the tokenizer spec?
  246. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> the closing-the-input-stream part?
  247. # [11:22] * Disconnected
  248. # [11:23] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  249. # [11:23] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  250. # [11:23] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  251. # [11:23] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  253. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: Murata-san is http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/村田真
  254. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makoto_Murata
  255. # [11:30] * abarth is now known as abarth|rename5
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  257. # [11:51] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: "In Mainland China, Malaysia and Singapore....vertical writing is now very rare, more so in print than in writing and signage." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_and_vertical_writing_in_East_Asian_scripts
  258. # [11:51] <kennyluck> I guess I was wrong about novels in Mainland China.
  259. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> interesting
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  263. # [11:56] <annevk> wtf is sam on
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  270. # [12:26] <jgraham> annevk: See, this is why you shouldn't do things for people. They will only complain
  271. # [12:27] <annevk> yeah, before I settled on "I already had." I had a lot of other drafts
  272. # [12:28] <annevk> dealing with the HTML WG is painful
  273. # [12:28] <annevk> so I'm calling it a day for now as far as that is concerned
  274. # [12:29] <annevk> http://code.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/javascript/examples/streetview-map.html is indeed very neat hsivonen
  275. # [12:31] <annevk> hehe, Google visited my place while I was home
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  280. # [13:08] <gsnedders> annevk: Unusual :P
  281. # [13:10] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2010/06/14-ab-minutes (W3C Member-only) -- worth reading
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  284. # [13:12] <Omer> Hi
  285. # [13:13] <Omer> Someone here?
  286. # [13:13] * Omer is now known as Guest45746
  287. # [13:13] <Guest45746> Hi
  288. # [13:13] <Guest45746> Someone here?
  289. # [13:13] <annevk> better to just ask your question
  290. # [13:13] <Guest45746> ok
  291. # [13:14] <Guest45746> how i can send a message with postMessage between windows/tabs?
  292. # [13:14] <annevk> by getting a reference to the other window and invoke postMessage() on it with the correct arguments?
  293. # [13:15] <Guest45746> how i getting reference to other window?
  294. # [13:15] <Guest45746> with the same domain
  295. # [13:16] <annevk> I think you can only get a reference if it's a related browsing context
  296. # [13:16] <annevk> so if it's window.opener, or in window[x]
  297. # [13:17] <Guest45746> i can't to access to other window?
  298. # [13:19] <annevk> no
  299. # [13:19] <Guest45746> ok thanks you ill do that on the sever side
  300. # [13:20] <annevk> you can maybe sync some info using localStorage for same-origin scenarios
  301. # [13:20] <annevk> the storage event is supposed to dispatch in each tab of the same origin
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  303. # [13:21] <Guest45746> what i wanted is to share the same websockets connection to all of the windows
  304. # [13:22] <Guest45746> but ill do that on the server side i dont think have anuther way
  305. # [13:22] <annevk> shared worker?
  306. # [13:22] * Quits: remysharp (~remysharp@cpc2-brig17-2-0-cust448.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  307. # [13:22] <Guest45746> what you mean?
  308. # [13:23] <annevk> see http://www.whatwg.org/ww
  309. # [13:24] <annevk> you can share a JavaScript "thread" among several same-origin windows and then you can use sockets from that thread
  310. # [13:26] <Guest45746> so when i created one shared worker all the pages use him?
  311. # [13:27] <annevk> pretty much
  312. # [13:32] <Guest45746> thanks tou very much
  313. # [13:32] <Guest45746> :)
  314. # [13:32] <Guest45746> i understand that
  315. # [13:33] <Guest45746> ww is cross browsers?
  316. # [13:34] <Guest45746> i think its desnt but i wanna to be sure
  317. # [13:35] <Guest45746> you*
  318. # [13:36] <annevk> nothing of this is cross browser really
  319. # [13:38] <Guest45746> but its great idea :)
  320. # [13:40] <jgraham> Well it is intended to be cross browser
  321. # [13:40] <jgraham> Just need to wait for the browsers
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  323. # [13:44] <Guest45746> so i can be sure its will be in the next??
  324. # [13:47] <annevk> there's no guarantees really
  325. # [13:47] <annevk> but it's shipping in some already
  326. # [13:52] <Guest45746> you know when websockets protocol ill finished?
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  347. # [15:23] <annevk> Guest45746, no
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  349. # [15:24] <annevk> Guest45746, when three implementations are shipping it's prolly finished for better or worse
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  357. # [15:47] <jgraham> So who is going to write the change proposal for @summary?
  358. # [16:00] * Quits: m_W (~mwilcox56@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  359. # [16:00] <Guest45746> element.parentElement its part of html5?
  360. # [16:02] <Philip`> Guest45746: That seems to be a non-standard IE-only feature
  361. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: it's been pointed out to me that "The autobuffer attribute on media elements was renamed to preload." is mentioned twice in the diffs doc
  362. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> in section 5.1 and also in 5.2
  363. # [16:03] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  364. # [16:03] * MikeSmith goes to check when it actually changed
  365. # [16:04] <Lachy> jgraham, what change proposal is needed?
  366. # [16:04] <Lachy> Just a zero-edit proposal, or one that says to make it fully obsolete?
  367. # [16:04] <Lachy> or both?
  368. # [16:04] <Guest45746> so how can i get the parent
  369. # [16:05] <Guest45746> ans why chrome and safari use parentElement?
  370. # [16:05] <Guest45746> and
  371. # [16:05] <Philip`> Guest45746: Use parentNode
  372. # [16:08] <jgraham> Lachy: I would prefer both. But at least a zero-edits one that collects together all the evidence that summary is pointless or harmful
  373. # [16:08] <Guest45746> thanks now its work on firefox :)
  374. # [16:09] <jgraham> Lachy: I have no idea how one is supposed to write a change proposal in such a way that the chairs actually pay attention to the points made though
  375. # [16:09] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@U017209.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  376. # [16:09] <Guest45746> but why chrome and safari use it?
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  381. # [16:25] <Lachy> jgraham, no idea either, given how they've merely counted arguments and counter arguments as balancing each other out, regardless of their technical merit
  382. # [16:26] <Lachy> but that's an issue I need to follow up with sam, as I'm still waiting for him to stop ignoring my email about the issue.
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  389. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: seems like "The autobuffer attribute for media elements is now named preload" should be removed from the "Changes since 4 March 2010" list
  390. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> because that change was actually made in February
  391. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> and you already to have it listed in "Changes from 25 August 2009 to 4 March 2010"
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  396. # [16:51] <TabAtkins> roc: Well, I'm screenshotting and then checking pixels in GIMP. I'd think that's close enough.
  397. # [16:51] * jgraham wonders what the context for that was
  398. # [16:51] <TabAtkins> There's a www-style convo about how the *-shadow properties do/should work.
  399. # [16:52] <TabAtkins> There's disagreement about how text-shadow works *right now*, which is weird.
  400. # [16:53] <Philip`> Reverse-engineering shadow algorithms is fun
  401. # [16:53] * Philip` wonders how similar CSS shadows are to canvas shadows
  402. # [16:54] <TabAtkins> canvas shadows are an exact copy of webkit's bugs in css shadows.
  403. # [16:55] <TabAtkins> Including a substantial change in shadow algorithm when the shadow blur is > 8px.
  404. # [16:56] <Philip`> Does it do the slightly weird thing with sigma=sqrt(2*blur) if blur>8 ?
  405. # [16:56] <TabAtkins> So, yes.
  406. # [16:56] <Philip`> That's not a substantial change, it's just interpreting the argument a bit differently
  407. # [16:56] <TabAtkins> It makes things weird, at least.
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  410. # [16:56] <TabAtkins> smfr was complaining about it.
  411. # [16:57] * magnusrk is now known as Dashiva^2
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  414. # [16:57] <Philip`> It makes the shadow appear to scale more linearly, without big visual differences between small integers, if I remember correctly
  415. # [16:58] <TabAtkins> I was told it was a performance optimization.
  416. # [16:58] <Philip`> I assume the behaviour was inherited from CG, rather than being an intentional WebKit feature
  417. # [16:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I assume so.
  418. # [16:59] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.229)
  419. # [16:59] <Philip`> (I assume by "webkit's bugs" you meant the CG port of WebKit)
  420. # [16:59] <TabAtkins> So anyway, roc and I are disagreeing about how far Firefox's shadow extends for a 100px blur. I say 50px, based on screenshots + pixel comparisons. He says 79px, based on a screen magnifier and pixel checking.
  421. # [16:59] <TabAtkins> I dunno, I'm just paraphrasing from smfr.
  422. # [17:00] <Philip`> How can you disagree on something as objective as that? :-)
  423. # [17:00] <TabAtkins> I don't know!
  424. # [17:01] <Philip`> Just post the screenshot and say what pixel value you see at the edge of the blur
  425. # [17:01] <TabAtkins> Yeah, doing that now.
  426. # [17:01] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  427. # [17:01] <Philip`> and then find out it varies between different platforms or something :-)
  428. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> Well, it appears to be the same between my linux desktop and my windows laptop.
  429. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> But roc is checking on win and linux as well.
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  432. # [17:05] <Philip`> With FF3.6.3 on Linux, I see (254,254,254) at 80ish pixels from the edge of the shape
  433. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> wtf
  434. # [17:07] <Philip`> You're not using Gimp's magic wand with a threshold of 15 to determine the edge of the shadow?
  435. # [17:07] <TabAtkins> No, I'm just zooming in and using the dropper to check the color manually.
  436. # [17:07] <Philip`> Ah, good :-)
  437. # [17:07] <TabAtkins> And when I did use the wand, I specifically dropped the threshold to 0.
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  439. # [17:12] <TabAtkins> ...huh.
  440. # [17:13] <TabAtkins> When I do a white shadow on black, the shadow is 50px wide. +-1. When I do a black shadow on white, it's about 80px wide, like roc says.
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  442. # [17:14] <Philip`> Oh
  443. # [17:14] <Philip`> (That doesn't seem surprising since it depends on the rounding)
  444. # [17:14] <TabAtkins> That's stupid.
  445. # [17:16] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait. Huh. Maybe I was just stupid? Now I'm measuring 80px for white-on-black.
  446. # [17:17] <TabAtkins> roc: So, nevermind. I think I just measured webkit's screenshot twice, rather than measuring webkit once and firefox once.
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  449. # [17:19] * Philip` just tried yellow on magenta, and it looks like actually it rounds up the same as it rounds down, so that's not an issue
  450. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, rounding's not the issue. I was juggling too many screenshots at once.
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  453. # [17:27] <Philip`> Hmm, why does text-shadow indicate the blur is measured in pixels?
  454. # [17:28] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@170-116.citynet.ftth.internl.net)
  455. # [17:28] <TabAtkins> Where does it do so?
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  457. # [17:29] <Philip`> Isn't that slightly meaningless, since the blur is theoretically infinite in size and I assume the specified size is not equal to the Gaussian sigma
  458. # [17:29] <Philip`> "text-shadow: 0 0 100px black;"
  459. # [17:30] <Philip`> (s/$/?/ in earlier question)
  460. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> The blur length specifies how far you have to go before the blur has gotten to within 1% of the full color/full transparency. Or at least, that's probably what we're specifying now.
  461. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> It is remarkably underspecified right now.
  462. # [17:31] <TabAtkins> So yeah, the blur is theoretically infinite, but the area within the threshold isn't.
  463. # [17:31] <Philip`> 1% in what colour space?
  464. # [17:31] <TabAtkins> rgb, the default css color space
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  471. # [17:37] * karlushi sighs at the difficulties to share Web files with people at the offices. No interoperability for packaging between the different browsers. :((
  472. # [17:38] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Doesn't "1% of the full color" mean you need to solve a cubic equation to work out what sigma to use for the Gaussian, or am I getting my maths all wrong?
  473. # [17:38] <Philip`> (I'm interpreting it as meaning G(x) = 0.01 as defined by http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/b/5/a/b5a3ab06a75210694218bcbd7370eea3.png)
  474. # [17:40] <TabAtkins> Philip`: I have no clue.
  475. # [17:40] <TabAtkins> But I'm certain there's a much faster approximation.
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  477. # [17:43] <Philip`> So the text-shadow property will be giving an approximation of an arbitrary percentage threshold?
  478. # [17:44] <Philip`> That doesn't sound very mathematically sane :-(
  479. # [17:44] <TabAtkins> Who cares about math, we're doing webdesign.
  480. # [17:45] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Seems like a good idea to understand the maths before you specify something insane
  481. # [17:46] <TabAtkins> To be fair, it appears that the implementors who're paying attention are cool with all that anyway.
  482. # [17:47] <TabAtkins> The only question is whether a 100px blur length means that the full blur area (extending inside and outside of the unblurred shadow boundary) is 100px wide, or that the blur area must extend 100px inside and outside.
  483. # [17:47] * Quits: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
  484. # [17:47] <TabAtkins> And that's just a question of bikeshedding and convergence with sufficiently related technologies, luckily.
  485. # [17:48] <Philip`> Is canvas sufficiently related?
  486. # [17:48] <Philip`> (I think that has a mathematically reasonably sane definition of shadow rendering :-) )
  487. # [17:48] <TabAtkins> Only insofar as canvas is literally "whatever webkit did for shadows".
  488. # [17:48] <TabAtkins> So, since we're already considering webkit, canvas just weights that slightly.
  489. # [17:49] <annevk> MikeSmith, still around?
  490. # [17:49] * jgraham would have assumed that the blur length would be defined as a sigma of a given number of pixels, or something
  491. # [17:49] * jgraham has no idea how it actually works though
  492. # [17:49] <Philip`> It's not precisely what Safari did, since Safari had (has?) incorrect clipping for small shadow sizes
  493. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Your average web author has absolutely no idea what a sigma is.
  494. # [17:49] <Philip`> (It would cut off the leftmost pixel of the shadow, in a visible way)
  495. # [17:49] <jgraham> TabAtkins: So?
  496. # [17:50] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Presumably they just adjust until they get the result they want
  497. # [17:50] <TabAtkins> So we want the blur length to mean something reasonable?
  498. # [17:50] <Philip`> TabAtkins: They just need to know that it's correlated to the apparent width of the shadow
  499. # [17:50] <jgraham> It does mean something reasonable
  500. # [17:50] <Philip`> (It can never be equal to the width since the shadow doesn't have an edge)
  501. # [17:51] <jgraham> It means that the shadow is 1/e of the maximum value at that number of pixels
  502. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> That's putting implementor interests over author interests, for little benefit to implementors and measurable downside to authors.
  503. # [17:51] <jgraham> I challenge you to measure that downside
  504. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> I did. It's -13 utilons.
  505. # [17:51] <jgraham> I don't see why an author cares if it is 1/e or 1/100
  506. # [17:52] <annevk> MikeSmith, I fixed that and some other issues
  507. # [17:52] <TabAtkins> An author cares that the language is predictable. Saying "well, bigger numbers mean bigger shadows" is only *barely* acceptable. Ideally, the author shoudl be able to predict how large the shadow will be for a given length.
  508. # [17:53] <jgraham> The shadows will be infinitely big, apart from hardware limitations
  509. # [17:53] <TabAtkins> Now you're being pedantic.
  510. # [17:54] <jgraham> Not really :)
  511. # [17:54] <jgraham> I mean, in theory, there is no edge of the shadow.
  512. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> The measure we're planning to use on defining the "edge" of the shadow is 1% from full color/full transparency.
  513. # [17:55] * jgraham would really use n sigma for integer n
  514. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> The two are interchangeable.
  515. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> Also, we dont' specify the blurring algorithm, so we can't assume a gaussian blur.
  516. # [17:56] <jgraham> I assume no one will implement a non-gaussian blur
  517. # [17:56] <TabAtkins> If you just wanted to use 3 sigma, that's fine.
  518. # [17:56] <jgraham> If they did it would be even weirder
  519. # [17:56] <Philip`> How can you specify shadowing without specifying the blurring algorithm?
  520. # [17:56] <TabAtkins> Man, I dunno. I just know there was pushback against us specifying a precise algo.
  521. # [17:57] <Philip`> That seems to be basically leaving the entire thing undefined
  522. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Barely. We just define the boundaries, and then say there should be a gradient of some kind.
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  524. # [17:59] <Philip`> So someone could e.g. do a 100%-to-0% radial gradient around the edge of the shape, so that a tiny dot would have as bright a shadow as a large box?
  525. # [17:59] <Philip`> That doesn't sound good for interoperability
  526. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> See: pushback against specifying a precise algo.
  527. # [18:00] <jgraham> TabAtkins: It needen't bee to precise
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  529. # [18:00] <Philip`> (Either people will implement things very differently, which is bad for interop, or they'll implement it the same anyway, in which case it can be specced)
  530. # [18:00] <jgraham> It should say "implementation defined approximation to a gaussian blur" or something
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  534. # [18:01] <jgraham> You could argue that anything is an approximation to a gaussian of course, but that would be deliberatly perverse
  535. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> Time for conference call!
  536. # [18:02] * Philip` just thinks it seems crazy to specify a rendering behaviour without actually specifying the rendering behaviour
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  538. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> I agree, actually.
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  599. # [20:08] <hober> whoa, emails to the whatwg list from a @microsoft.com address
  600. # [20:08] <Peter-> Apparently IE9 DP3 is pending to be released today
  601. # [20:09] <Peter-> I have noticed more Microsoft activity around various lists in the past few days
  602. # [20:10] <gsnedders> WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU SAY DON'T GIVE YOUR PASSWORD TO ANYONE… THEN SEND IT IN PLAINTEXT IN AN EMAIL!?
  603. # [20:10] <gsnedders> Sorry.
  604. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> ...?
  605. # [20:10] <gsnedders> I had a moment there.
  606. # [20:11] <gsnedders> Well, especially when dealing with organizations which have to have bank details, that makes me ueasy
  607. # [20:11] <gsnedders> *uneasy
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  611. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, presumably they care about phishing but not MITM.
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  615. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> annevk: back now & synched up the copy again
  616. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  648. # [21:36] <Philip`> hober: Not just "a @microsoft.com address", but three in a day
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  650. # [21:38] <Peter-> They posted on Canvas accessibility, a WebGL related topic and some HTML5 parser bits yesterday
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  654. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> In whatwg rather than public-html? Remarkable.
  655. # [21:50] <Philip`> It's good that Microsoft is so secretive and quiet in the HTML standards groups, otherwise we couldn't have fun overanalysing their occasional utterances to try to extract patterns and trends
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  657. # [21:54] <MikeSmith> Peter-: posted about Canvas accessibility?
  658. # [21:54] * Dashiva^2 starts selling umbrellas to protect against falling pieces of sky
  659. # [21:55] <Peter-> MikeSmith: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0519.html
  660. # [21:55] <Peter-> that's on public-html
  661. # [21:56] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  662. # [21:56] <Peter-> It would be rather odd to reply to <canvas> accessibility if they wouldn't be implementing the entire element themself..
  663. # [21:56] <MikeSmith> stranger things have happened
  664. # [21:57] <Peter-> No argument there
  665. # [21:57] <Peter-> He is posting on behalf of the company however, while other posts mostly are on a more personal base
  666. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> My guess is that they'd like to implement it, modulo lawyers.
  667. # [21:59] * AryehGregor sees no other feasible explanation.
  668. # [22:00] <zcorpan_> w3 bugzilla reached bug 10000!
  669. # [22:00] <Peter-> Four of the seven Apple disclosed patents related to canvas have yet to be published, according to http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/status#current-disclosures
  670. # [22:01] <Peter-> But IANAL. According to some larger news sites DP3 is pending for today, so that might clear things up
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  672. # [22:03] <Philip`> Peter-: I believe those patents are all the same one (which is basically a description of the whole canvas API), just in different jurisdictions
  673. # [22:06] <Peter-> I did notice the US/HK/EP indicators, but the last four aren't exactly clear. It would indeed make sense
  674. # [22:06] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb_)
  675. # [22:08] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  676. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> Oh, yeah, Ben Vanik is @microsoft.com. He also seemed to be posting totally personally, which is a first for Microsoft on HTML5 lists in my experience . . .
  677. # [22:13] <Peter-> Sylvain Galineau seems to be posting a lot on subjects Microsoft isn't involved with, CSS mostly
  678. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Well, Sylvain's been an active member of the csswg for some time.
  679. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Microsoft is pretty active in the csswg.
  680. # [22:16] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  681. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Yes, it always has been.
  682. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> Hmm, these posts by MS. Are they crossposted to htmlwg or something?
  683. # [22:17] <Philip`> No
  684. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> Interesting. I'm not seeing them for some reason, then.
  685. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> . . . why do the chairs seem to misannounce dates in public-html announcements at least 25% of the time?
  686. # [22:19] <Philip`> TabAtkins: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-June/026825.html, http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/implementors-whatwg.org/2010-June/000273.html, etc
  687. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> Oh, I'm not on the implementors list. That's why.
  688. # [22:22] <Peter-> Philip`: that last mail is interesting, "I encountered this bug in my own implementation."
  689. # [22:24] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (Quit: roc)
  690. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Why does the implementers list even exist? It only gets like three posts a month.
  691. # [22:24] * AryehGregor subscribes
  692. # [22:25] <Philip`> Peter-: It seems he's one of the select bunch of people who implement HTML5 parsers just for fun :-)
  693. # [22:25] <Philip`> (An earlier mail says "to avoid misinterpretation, I am not on the IE team and do not speak for the IE team's plans")
  694. # [22:26] <Peter-> Aah, at least he's passionate about HTML then ^-^
  695. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Then why is he using his official e-mail address?
  696. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> MS doesn't have company policies on that?
  697. # [22:43] <gsnedders> (But what about other MS teams?)
  698. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> Maybe he's doing it for the Bing team.
  699. # [22:44] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  700. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> Hmm, this page renders somewhat unreadably in Chrome but is fine in Firefox. I wonder why? http://www.pcworld.com/article/168658/seven_reasons_microsofts_profits_are_tanking.html
  701. # [22:45] <AryehGregor> (Opera matches FF)
  702. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Oh god.
  703. # [22:45] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  704. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> Seems like simple floats.
  705. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's the #mainWell element that gets big, but I can't tell why.
  706. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> It doesn't have an explicit width on it, and its parent, #leftColumn, is a correct width.
  707. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> #blogArticle #mainWell { width: auto }
  708. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> Removing that fixes Chrome.
  709. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> Well, sort of.
  710. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> It's too narrow.
  711. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that allows the #mainWell { width: 351px; } rule to apply.
  712. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  713. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> So still odd.
  714. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  715. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Removing float: left fixes it?
  716. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Wow, yeah. That's... bizarre.
  717. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> Seems to change the padding or something in Firefox, but looks fine.
  718. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> Do you want to make a minimal test case, or shall I?
  719. # [22:51] * AryehGregor wonders if this is a Chrome bug or a spec bug
  720. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> I'll do it, I suppose. I've got the relevant people to show it to just a few feet away.
  721. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> Show me the test case when you're done so I can poke at it.
  722. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> kk
  723. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Ah, found it. Look in the last comment for an attempt at a bbcode url tag.
  724. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> It's long enough to stretch the element, and the BFC chain makes the article grow as well.
  725. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> So now to actually reduce and find the inconsistency.
  726. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> I hate it when content can stretch the whole page.
  727. # [22:59] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.228.168) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  728. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Ah, and the issue is that Firefox is treating the /s in the url as break opportunities, while Chrome waits for the ? before finding one.
  729. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  730. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> I guess there's no good place to spec that.
  731. # [23:04] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@pool-98-117-216-229.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  732. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> I... dunno. Hm.
  733. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> Kind of annoying, though. That should probably be standard.
  734. # [23:04] <AryehGregor> Since it can have major effects on layout like this.
  735. # [23:05] <zcorpan_> unicode has suggestions on breaking opportunities iirc
  736. # [23:05] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  737. # [23:05] <zcorpan_> http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/
  738. # [23:06] <Philip`> "The third Internet Explorer Platform Preview is available for download. We're excited to announce the availability of several major features you've asked for, such as Canvas, HTML5 Video and Audio, SVG gradients, Web Fonts, and more."
  739. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> Woo-hoo!
  740. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> I guess still no WebM by default, though, huh?
  741. # [23:07] <zcorpan_> what do they mean by Web Fonts?
  742. # [23:07] * AryehGregor assumes that's also because of lawyers, but is pretty sure he's right this time.
  743. # [23:07] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Maybe they mean WOFF
  744. # [23:07] <zcorpan_> WOFF?
  745. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> zcorpan_: Presumably proper support for @font-face.
  746. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> And/or WOFF, yeah.
  747. # [23:07] * TabAtkins thinks IE8 had proper @font-face support.
  748. # [23:08] <Philip`> "This release includes support for the HTML5 <audio>, <video>, and <canvas> elements, the Web Open Font Format (WOFF), and many other new and improved capabilities."
  749. # [23:09] <Philip`> (Seemingly can't download it yet though - they're not very good at updating all their pages simultaneously)
  750. # [23:09] <Philip`> Ah, http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/info/ReleaseNotes/Default.html updated now
  751. # [23:09] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
  752. # [23:10] <Philip`> "MP4 H.264 playback support, using hardware or software decoding. Support for WebM software is not included in this release"
  753. # [23:10] <Philip`> "Web font formats: EOT. WOFF. Raw installable fonts (TrueType, OpenType)"
  754. # [23:10] <gsnedders> msPerformance?
  755. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> What?
  756. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> TTF and OTF support?
  757. # [23:10] <gsnedders> window.msPerformance is what?
  758. # [23:11] <gsnedders> "HTML5-conformant whitespace handling" — childNodes?
  759. # [23:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: Maybe it's like a turbo button on old computers
  760. # [23:11] <gsnedders> Most of the new ES5 stuff except strict mode
  761. # [23:11] * Joins: Amadiro (~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no)
  762. # [23:12] <Philip`> Before IE8 they wanted opt-in standards support, so maybe now they're doing opt-in performance
  763. # [23:12] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  764. # [23:16] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  765. # [23:16] <Philip`> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Graphics/DeepZoom/Default.html seems quite nice
  766. # [23:18] <gsnedders> With or without the turbo button pressed?
  767. # [23:20] <Philip`> I suppose turbo buttons couldn't work on modern computers because they have too many megahertz to display on the LED display, so users wouldn't know how fast their CPU was
  768. # [23:20] * jgraham didn't realise that computers came with LCD displays until today
  769. # [23:21] <Philip`> It was bad enough when they exceeded 100MHz and had to add an extra two LEDs onto the left
  770. # [23:21] <gsnedders> jgraham: Then you tried to work out what you could do with it
  771. # [23:21] * Parts: ment (thement@ibawizard.net)
  772. # [23:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well obviously
  773. # [23:21] <jgraham> Anyway I can't imagine his Steveness allowing such tasteless bling
  774. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, MS had been talking about TTF support.
  775. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> If it's what I've heard, you can only use TTF if none of the embedding bits are set. That excludes most existing desktop fonts.
  776. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> I thought the only reason WOFF existed is because MS refused to implement TTF support.
  777. # [23:22] <Philip`> So if everyone supports TTF now, why are we bothering with WOFF?
  778. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Wonderful question!
  779. # [23:22] <jgraham> I thought font foundaries liked WOFF
  780. # [23:22] * Parts: wirepair (fbi@random.supermario.org)
  781. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah, for some reason they do.
  782. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> I'm pretty sure they don't understand it.
  783. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> Well, WOFF has built-in compression or something, right?
  784. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> So there's not absolutely no reason to use it?
  785. # [23:23] * AryehGregor should test how IE9 handles his website . . .
  786. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> Yes, it uses a per-table compression algo.
  787. # [23:24] <jgraham> YEah I'm not sure how a tiny technical barrier can turn a whole industry from "impossible" to "fine"
  788. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Which gets decently better numbers than just gzipping the whole thing.
  789. # [23:24] <jgraham> How much better?
  790. # [23:24] <AryehGregor> It's good anyway, you don't have to worry about configuring your web server to gzip it.
  791. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> I forget. There were comparisons with actual numbers on the font mailing list a year ago.
  792. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Like 30% iirc.
  793. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> I'm all in favor of formats with built-in compression.
  794. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> Unless they're text formats to begin with, in which case it might be annoying.
  795. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> But fonts aren't text files, so there's basically no reason to not compress them.
  796. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but you're not losing anything with binary formats.
  797. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> (at the format level, I mean)
  798. # [23:25] <jgraham> I guess 30% might be non-negligible
  799. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> Even if the compression were just plain old gzip on the whole file.
  800. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> jgraham, you mean, when the font file blocks page rendering in some browsers? I'd say so.
  801. # [23:26] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Blocking rendering seems silly
  802. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> Well, tell the WebKit developers that.
  803. # [23:26] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Sure
  804. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> You have some FOUC-style effect either way.
  805. # [23:26] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  806. # [23:27] <jgraham> webkit developers: blocking rendering seems silly
  807. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> Unless you actually block rendering of the whole page from that point on, which no one does.
  808. # [23:27] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Presumably fonts are highly amenable to being cached
  809. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> Except that a large fraction of hits have empty cache in practice.
  810. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> Especially if most of your traffic is from occasional visitors, which is true for a lot of sites.
  811. # [23:28] <jgraham> In general, but for sites that you visit with any regularity it should be fine
  812. # [23:28] <jgraham> But I am not disagreeing with you
  813. # [23:28] <AryehGregor> Do I get to add parity-ie to the whiteboard of <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=276431> now?
  814. # [23:29] <jgraham> (you can probably get similar savings just by using a better general-purpose compression algorithm on the whole file, since fonts tend to be rather static)
  815. # [23:30] <jgraham> (won't really work on the web though)
  816. # [23:30] * AryehGregor needs to go use IE9 to check out his web page, and also the HTML5 beta on YouTube, just to see for himself that it's actually true
  817. # [23:30] * Joins: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-orndqaktiriwuwev)
  818. # [23:30] <AryehGregor> jgraham, but that will be much slower to decompress.
  819. # [23:31] <AryehGregor> Oh, maybe YouTube does UA sniffing and blacklists IE9?
  820. # [23:31] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-wjcaqmccccsivgwp) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  821. # [23:31] <jgraham> AryehGregor: No idea how it compares to the format specific compression or other timescales
  822. # [23:32] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@p6eafe2.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  823. # [23:36] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-orndqaktiriwuwev) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  824. # [23:37] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, probably not a blacklist, probably a whitelist "Supported Browsers"
  825. # [23:37] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/06/23/html5-native-third-ie9-platform-preview-available-for-developers.aspx
  826. # [23:46] * Joins: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-iqznslfeeiztwnpp)
  827. # [23:48] <paul_irish> thx Philip` for breaking the news. :D
  828. # [23:48] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  829. # [23:48] <Peter-> paul_irish: didn't you see it coming? :P
  830. # [23:48] * Joins: Yudai (~Yudai@p4ac815.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  831. # [23:49] <paul_irish> well everyone was hoping and expecting... but official confirmation is shit hot sweetness.
  832. # [23:49] <Philip`> paul_irish: I didn't do anything worthy of thanks - I just saw elsewhere on IRC that it had apparently been released, and then reloaded all the pages until MS got around to uploading them :-)
  833. # [23:49] <Peter-> I've spent quite some time last week writing a blog mock up about it, MS was just making it quite obvious
  834. # [23:50] <Peter-> replying on the canvas accessibility thing made it real obvious imo
  835. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41103
  836. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> Ironically, the bug itself demonstrates our linebreaking behavior.
  837. # [23:51] <Philip`> Peter-: I think they could reply on the canvas accessibility thing without having got into the details of actually implementing canvas
  838. # [23:51] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-1799e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  839. # [23:51] <Peter-> Philip`: In theory, yes, but I consider it unlikely as he replied on behalf of Microsoft, instead of just on a personal note
  840. # [23:51] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@nat/mozilla/x-iqznslfeeiztwnpp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  841. # [23:51] <Philip`> Their questions about specific requirements in the canvas spec seem more obvious, because nobody would look in that much detail unless they were implementing it or writing tests
  842. # [23:53] <Peter-> That too, indeed :
  843. # [23:56] * Quits: Yudai (~Yudai@p4ac815.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  844. # [23:56] <Rik`> 83/100 on Acid3. That's not something I expected so early on IE
  845. # [23:58] * AryehGregor confirms that HTML5 YouTube works in the Platform Preview, although it's choppy right now
  846. # [23:59] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  847. # Session Close: Thu Jun 24 00:00:00 2010

The end :)